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View Full Version : Wow, is it ever time to pull the trigger on a trade


lowesox
08-20-2005, 12:05 PM
Let's go get Griffey. This team needs to get going again.

kitekrazy
08-20-2005, 12:58 PM
Let's go get Griffey. This team needs to get going again.

Doesn't this belong in the fantasy baseball forum?

Trades aren't as easy as you think.

Hangar18
08-20-2005, 01:05 PM
This teams in big trouble. I remember talking to John Rooney (the sox announcer) in Milwaukee, right before the season began, and I told him
I was very suspect of this offense (of course, Pods was the biggest ?, and
he more than held his own), but I told him the 2 guys im most afraid of,
are Jermaine Dye and Paul Konerko. I told him with the kind of team they
were trying to put together, you need guys that make Contact, and these
2 are not it. Rooney said dont worry about Dye, he will easily be one
of the better players offensively (he hasnt), and of course Konerko takes
Odd - numbered years OFF. We have a lot of dumb, non-contact people on this team (uribe, crede, konerko, dye, Timo) and its really showing.

The SOX offense was never the strong suit, but people kept saying "wait ....they'll come around" or "Wait til it warms up .......the balls will be flying out of the Cell", or "Wait, everyones going to come together". The only
thing that happened was a key injury has now exposed our Offense for what it really was ......not that good. The pitching has been there, and one could say theyve slumped a bit, but dang it, the pitching has been there since Day 1, and a little offense on this team ...................

oldcomiskey
08-20-2005, 03:05 PM
the sox woes started when pods got hurt----when he comes back and the offense is still stagnant then Ill agree with you.

SOXSINCE'70
08-20-2005, 03:09 PM
Let's go get Griffey. This team needs to get going again.


:moron
"Read my latest column;'Sox need Griffey in a jiffy'.
While they're at it,if the spirits of Mantle and
Maris could be resurrected,that'd be nice as well".:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

:cubune
"You see,we told you the Sox suck!!!!HAHAHAHAHAHAHH!!!!!!!:angry: :angry: :angry:

Letmehearya
08-20-2005, 03:14 PM
Seeing how the cubune is having a field day with this collapse makes me sick. I sure hope we squeek by at the end of September.

Frater Perdurabo
08-20-2005, 03:23 PM
stagnant

Stagnant? Stagnant?

The most generous, complimentary term I can think of for this POS offense is "constipated."

jerry
08-20-2005, 03:37 PM
the sox woes started when pods got hurt----when he comes back and the offense is still stagnant then Ill agree with you.

We need help now and in the the future. We will be better with Pods is back, but we need more help.:(:

BeviBall!
08-20-2005, 03:38 PM
the sox woes started when pods got hurt----when he comes back and the offense is still stagnant then Ill agree with you.

I think it started when Frank got hurt... compounded by not adding a bat at the deadline.

putherawaywet
08-20-2005, 03:48 PM
we need to get rid of timo,uribe,crede,cora

Domeshot17
08-20-2005, 04:10 PM
I have to say, if Kenny fails to get anything done, and we completely blow the division, I wonder who the new GM will be, because while I do believe Griffey may legitematly not be available, There are hitters who are, and we need help bad! It's like we're on life support right now and KW has to find us a transplant so we dont die

Felt the need to edit this in: Tadahito with his second hit, Timo Perez with another easy out, and Tada isnt leading off why?

ChiSoxRowand
08-20-2005, 04:12 PM
This teams in big trouble. I remember talking to John Rooney (the sox announcer) in Milwaukee, right before the season began, and I told him
I was very suspect of this offense (of course, Pods was the biggest ?, and
he more than held his own), but I told him the 2 guys im most afraid of,
are Jermaine Dye and Paul Konerko. I told him with the kind of team they
were trying to put together, you need guys that make Contact, and these
2 are not it. Rooney said dont worry about Dye, he will easily be one
of the better players offensively (he hasnt), and of course Konerko takes
Odd - numbered years OFF. We have a lot of dumb, non-contact people on this team (uribe, crede, konerko, dye, Timo) and its really showing.

The SOX offense was never the strong suit, but people kept saying "wait ....they'll come around" or "Wait til it warms up .......the balls will be flying out of the Cell", or "Wait, everyones going to come together". The only
thing that happened was a key injury has now exposed our Offense for what it really was ......not that good. The pitching has been there, and one could say theyve slumped a bit, but dang it, the pitching has been there since Day 1, and a little offense on this team ...................

Huh? Konerko is hitting over .300 since the all-star break and is our best run producer. Dye has rebounded from a slow start and has 22 homers. The people who are killing this team offensively are Crede and Uribe.

Domeshot17
08-20-2005, 04:17 PM
ChiSoxRowand: You are a complete fool to believe Uribe and Crede are killing this team. they have been VERY BAD, but they are the 8 and 9 hitters. They arent expected to Carry the Load, Just play solid D and Hit weakly, most 8 9 hitters in the AL do just that. The problem is not PK, but it is Karl Aaron and Dye right now, the middle of the lineup is suppose to produce runs ( that is why every year 3-4-5-6 guys get 80-120 rbis and 8 9 get 60 tops). Dye has been just flat out bad during this slump. Average is down in the 240s, THAT IS NOT A REBOUND. Karl has not had a big hit since his 480 foot shot, and he looks like he could care less at the plate, swing at the first 3 pitches and hope he doesnt K ( hense the repeated Karl spelling). Aaron has not had a big hit in a long time, he needs to step it up. and AJ has been average during this stretch.

THE MIDDLE OF THE ORDER IS KILLING US NOT THE 8 and 9 HITTERS!!

Lip Man 1
08-20-2005, 05:53 PM
Williams isn't going anywhere next season even if the Sox were to collapse completely. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Lip

Letmehearya
08-20-2005, 05:58 PM
NONE of this is KW's fault. He put together the best starting rotation in baseball. If he had his way, Visquel would be our shortstop and we'd eat Junior's salary. KW wants a World Series as much as we do. Of course, King George may swoop in and grab him. The articles in NY newspapers extolling KW's ability to put a winning team together could be the beginning of the wooing of KW. Unlimited payroll, most storied franchise in sports, constant national exposure and a salary [I'd bet] 5 times what JR pays him, HE GONE!

Ol' No. 2
08-20-2005, 06:40 PM
Dear Kenny,

You might as well give the Reds what they want. With each loss, Griffey's price goes higher and higher. By next week you'll be paying them for LAST year's salary.

greenpeach
08-20-2005, 06:45 PM
Couldn't have said it better myself.



"The future is now." -- the late, great George Allen

Brian26
08-20-2005, 06:52 PM
I think it started when Frank got hurt... compounded by not adding a bat at the deadline.

Agreed. There's an emotional loss with Frank going down. Our team was good before we had Frank. After we got Frank, especially running hogwild through interleague play, we looked like the '27 Yankees. We were unstoppable. Our woes began as soon as Frank went back on the DL.

shoota
08-20-2005, 06:58 PM
Ken Griffey is not the answer. Mike Sweeney is. Raul Ibanez will suffice as well.

JB98
08-20-2005, 07:33 PM
This teams in big trouble. I remember talking to John Rooney (the sox announcer) in Milwaukee, right before the season began, and I told him
I was very suspect of this offense (of course, Pods was the biggest ?, and
he more than held his own), but I told him the 2 guys im most afraid of,
are Jermaine Dye and Paul Konerko. I told him with the kind of team they
were trying to put together, you need guys that make Contact, and these
2 are not it. Rooney said dont worry about Dye, he will easily be one
of the better players offensively (he hasnt), and of course Konerko takes
Odd - numbered years OFF. We have a lot of dumb, non-contact people on this team (uribe, crede, konerko, dye, Timo) and its really showing.

The SOX offense was never the strong suit, but people kept saying "wait ....they'll come around" or "Wait til it warms up .......the balls will be flying out of the Cell", or "Wait, everyones going to come together". The only
thing that happened was a key injury has now exposed our Offense for what it really was ......not that good. The pitching has been there, and one could say theyve slumped a bit, but dang it, the pitching has been there since Day 1, and a little offense on this team ...................

Hangar, what do you have against Konerko and Dye? You've been blasting them both all year long. They are power hitters. You are going to get some strikeouts, but I don't think either of them whiff excessively. Konerko is hitting. 330 with 11 HRs since the All-Star break. He's been the least of our problems. Dye is scuffling, but he's had more hits lately than Rowand or Crede.

You want to know who leads our team in strikeouts? Rowand. You want to know who is second? Iguchi. Both of those players have been struggling right along with everyone else, but they seem to get a free pass around here. Rowand is going to be over 100 Ks by the end of the week. He can't touch the ball right now.

This slump is a team failure. Anyone who is trying to pin it on one or two players is wrong. Anyone who is trying to pin it on one or two favorite WSI whipping boys is wrong. There isn't a single player in this lineup that doesn't share the blame for this losing streak.

JB98
08-20-2005, 07:38 PM
Huh? Konerko is hitting over .300 since the all-star break and is our best run producer. Dye has rebounded from a slow start and has 22 homers. The people who are killing this team offensively are Crede and Uribe.

Uribe was on base twice today and had the best at-bat of the day when he worked Chacon for a walk in the third. He wasn't the one leaving runners out there in scoring position today.

Knucksie
08-20-2005, 09:02 PM
This slump is a team failure. Anyone who is trying to pin it on one or two players is wrong. Anyone who is trying to pin it on one or two favorite WSI whipping boys is wrong. There isn't a single player in this lineup that doesn't share the blame for this losing streak.

Thank you

Jjav829
08-20-2005, 10:16 PM
Ken Griffey is not the answer. Mike Sweeney is. Raul Ibanez will suffice as well.

Yeaahhhhh......riiiiiight.....

Ken Griffey Jr. isn't the answer but Mike Sweeney and Raul freaking Ibanez are? Then again, you also said that Scott Spiezio would be an upgrade over Joe Crede. :rolleyes:

shoota
08-21-2005, 01:12 PM
Yeaahhhhh......riiiiiight.....

Ken Griffey Jr. isn't the answer but Mike Sweeney and Raul freaking Ibanez are? Then again, you also said that Scott Spiezio would be an upgrade over Joe Crede. :rolleyes:

I was never on the Spiezio bandwagon. I was on the Joe Randa bandwagon. The night I mentioned Spiezio was after a bad defensive game by Crede (the game where he did his best 1919 White Sox World Series impression and dropped Manny Ramirez's foul popup) and I was a little upset at the time I made that suggestion.

I was just throwing out names. I never wanted Spiezio over Randa.

And Jjav, come on, are you still defending Crede? .237, .290, .416.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=782593&postcount=172

Mike Sweeney is the answer. His batting average with men in scoring position and with two outs is high. He can help us while not hurting us at the same time with his contract like Griffey's would. The Sox also have a position for him to play next year with Konerko being a FA.

Jerome
08-21-2005, 02:01 PM
And Jjav, come on, are you still defending Crede? .237, .290, .416.


OMG those numbers make me sick. I know he's hardly getting paid anything, but those suggest that cannot hit at the major league level. He is an automatic out! Those are 2004 Jose Valentin-esqe numbers. Only without the slugging %. It is not Crede's fault this offense blows, but there are just too many flat-out bad hitters like him in the lineup to have a chance to win.

JRIG
08-21-2005, 02:08 PM
OMG those numbers make me sick. I know he's hardly getting paid anything, but those suggest that cannot hit at the major league level. He is an automatic out! Those are 2004 Jose Valentin-esqe numbers. Only without the slugging %. It is not Crede's fault this offense blows, but there are just too many flat-out bad hitters like him in the lineup to have a chance to win.

I posted it somewhere else, but I think it's very important: Joe Crede is right now on pace to decline in BA, OBP, and SLG for the third consecutive year. You can check it here:

Joe Crede's Amazing Decline (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/6411/career)

I would love to see how often this has happened in baseball history. My guess is a very, very small number. Few players get as many chances as Joe Crede has.

oldcomiskey
08-21-2005, 04:41 PM
Id like to see how New York does without Jeter and Sheffield and ARod. they would be hard pressed to win too

oldcomiskey
08-21-2005, 04:49 PM
I was never on the Spiezio bandwagon. I was on the Joe Randa bandwagon. The night I mentioned Spiezio was after a bad defensive game by Crede (the game where he did his best 1919 White Sox World Series impression and dropped Manny Ramirez's foul popup) and I was a little upset at the time I made that suggestion.

I was just throwing out names. I never wanted Spiezio over Randa.

And Jjav, come on, are you still defending Crede? .237, .290, .416.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=782593&postcount=172

Mike Sweeney is the answer. His batting average with men in scoring position and with two outs is high. He can help us while not hurting us at the same time with his contract like Griffey's would. The Sox also have a position for him to play next year with Konerko being a FA.

once again--where does he play

SouthSide_HitMen
08-21-2005, 04:54 PM
once again--where does he play

DH - When healthy is much better than Crazy Carl.

The question is is he worth it considering his health and contract.

He is due $11 million for the next two years - the salary increases to $12.5 per year the next two seasons if traded.

Considering you can barely count on him half the season I would say no he isn't worth it. We would lose two or three players who we can't resign / sign during the offseason. We traded Lee who is a very good player but we were able to fill our Catcher (AJ), Second Base (Iguchi) and Closer (Hermanson) holes with the money we saved plus Podsednik reverted to his 2003 form and has been getting on base this season.

Sweeney costs $4 mil more than Lee and he isn't worth it for that reason.

soxfanreggie
08-21-2005, 05:31 PM
I think that Kenny could swing a payroll increase if we can work out a worthwhile trade. We need to get someone, but don't give away everything of the future and pay a crap load to get it.

MIgrenade
08-21-2005, 06:00 PM
Dear Kenny,

You might as well give the Reds what they want. With each loss, Griffey's price goes higher and higher. By next week you'll be paying them for LAST year's salary.

So I guess it never occured to you that there is NOTHING that they want? The Reds are making a business decision, not a baseball decision. If they cared about the future of the team, Griffey would be in Chicago, but all they care about is selling the team and the buying groups seem to want Griffey.
The last resort might be paying the full salary, and giving Anderson, McCarthy and something else. That would hamstring the Sox for years and isn't worth it, plus it takes away guys that can contribute a bit this year.
If the Reds were going to trade Griffey it would have happened.

Ol' No. 2
08-21-2005, 06:25 PM
So I guess it never occured to you that there is NOTHING that they want? The Reds are making a business decision, not a baseball decision. If they cared about the future of the team, Griffey would be in Chicago, but all they care about is selling the team and the buying groups seem to want Griffey.
The last resort might be paying the full salary, and giving Anderson, McCarthy and something else. That would hamstring the Sox for years and isn't worth it, plus it takes away guys that can contribute a bit this year.
If the Reds were going to trade Griffey it would have happened.There is one thing they want: $$$$. I'd bet anything that if KW offered to take on Griffey's entire contract, this deal would be done in a heartbeat. The Reds are balking at the amount of money they're throwing into the deal. They're holding out hoping that Kenny will get desperate enough to lower his demand.

Lip Man 1
08-21-2005, 06:28 PM
No. 2:

Personally I think you are correct which begs the question then in all seriousness, why doesn't Kenny simply take on the salary?

Reinsdorf said money wasn't an issue again today on the radio, so if it isn't money then what could the holdup be?

Lip

Ol' No. 2
08-21-2005, 06:37 PM
No. 2:

Personally I think you are correct which begs the question then in all seriousness, why doesn't Kenny simply take on the salary?

Reinsdorf said money wasn't an issue again today on the radio, so if it isn't money then what could the holdup be?

LipWhen he says money isn't an issue, that doesn't really mean the sky is the limit. It's like when your air conditioner goes out on the hottest day of the year. You'll pay anything to get it fixed. But not really. There's ALWAYS a limit. $40M is a lot of contract to take on.

I think this trade is still has a chance. Linder will hold out trying to squeeze the last dollar, but in the end, it makes more sense for them to trade Griffey than to keep all of that contract on the books. When the Sox take the field on Sept 1, I think there's a 50-50 chance Jr is in a Sox uniform. We'll find out soon enough.

Paulwny
08-21-2005, 10:32 PM
No. 2:

Personally I think you are correct which begs the question then in all seriousness, why doesn't Kenny simply take on the salary?

Reinsdorf said money wasn't an issue again today on the radio, so if it isn't money then what could the holdup be?

Lip

With this big a contract, it's JR's decision not KW's. Throw the dice, win it all this year.

Flight #24
08-21-2005, 10:51 PM
No. 2:

Personally I think you are correct which begs the question then in all seriousness, why doesn't Kenny simply take on the salary?

Reinsdorf said money wasn't an issue again today on the radio, so if it isn't money then what could the holdup be?

Lip

It COULD be negotiating tactics. Even if they're willing to take on the whole deal, no reason to do so if they don't have to. Not saying that's the case, but it's a plausible explanation. The contract isn't as onerous as the total makes it sound, over the next 3 years you simply replace Carl+Timo with Griffey+Anderson. It's whether you're willing to take on the following 3 years of $6mil/yr with no production since it's deferred money. And I think JR would likely be perfectly willing to do so after milking the 600-HR chase, a couple of likely playoff runs, and a possible WS out of this team. Simply because they can always retrench at that point and he can say "I grew the team, then gave it a good shot when our window was open, now it's time to grow things again". Or he can use the likely increased attendance & revenues to fund the deferred money.

IMO the Reds are getting greedy with Jr's recent surge and the Sox recent slide and are asking for top guys AND the whole contract. And I think as long as it's no one off the major league roster, Kenny will find a way to make a deal.

Paulwny
08-21-2005, 10:58 PM
IMO the Reds are getting greedy with Jr's recent surge and the Sox recent slide and are asking for top guys AND the whole contract. And I think as long as it's no one off the major league roster, Kenny will find a way to make a deal.

Agree, the reds are being greedy, but the reds see the offensive struggle and I'm sure they read about sox fans chanting "we want Jr". They hold the trump card.

Ol' No. 2
08-21-2005, 11:10 PM
It COULD be negotiating tactics. Even if they're willing to take on the whole deal, no reason to do so if they don't have to. Not saying that's the case, but it's a plausible explanation. The contract isn't as onerous as the total makes it sound, over the next 3 years you simply replace Carl+Timo with Griffey+Anderson. It's whether you're willing to take on the following 3 years of $6mil/yr with no production since it's deferred money. And I think JR would likely be perfectly willing to do so after milking the 600-HR chase, a couple of likely playoff runs, and a possible WS out of this team. Simply because they can always retrench at that point and he can say "I grew the team, then gave it a good shot when our window was open, now it's time to grow things again". Or he can use the likely increased attendance & revenues to fund the deferred money.

IMO the Reds are getting greedy with Jr's recent surge and the Sox recent slide and are asking for top guys AND the whole contract. And I think as long as it's no one off the major league roster, Kenny will find a way to make a deal.Even though the money's deferred, it's with interest, so the real effect of the deferral is minimal. And it has to be funded by the third Jan 1 after it's earned.

As I said earlier, Linder will hold out as long as he thinks he might get a better deal. But the charade ends on Aug 31, one way or the other.

Here's a related question. Frank Thomas is essentially holding a playoff roster spot that they can fill with anyone else if he does not return from the DL. Can they fill it with ANYBODY? That is, if they were to trade for Griffey after Sept 1, can they put him in that slot? Or does it have to be someone in the organization on Sept 1?

Flight #24
08-21-2005, 11:40 PM
Even though the money's deferred, it's with interest, so the real effect of the deferral is minimal. And it has to be funded by the third Jan 1 after it's earned.

As I said earlier, Linder will hold out as long as he thinks he might get a better deal. But the charade ends on Aug 31, one way or the other.

Here's a related question. Frank Thomas is essentially holding a playoff roster spot that they can fill with anyone else if he does not return from the DL. Can they fill it with ANYBODY? That is, if they were to trade for Griffey after Sept 1, can they put him in that slot? Or does it have to be someone in the organization on Sept 1?

Well, the interest rate per MLB4U is only at 4% interest, so that'll help somewhat since I'd think the Sox and/or JR can get a much better rate than that.

Hopefully you're right and the Reds know it's in their best interest to trade Griffey and redistribute those $$$.

Palehose13
08-21-2005, 11:46 PM
I have grown tired of the this thread. I have confidence in KW. He's done a good job so far...

Domeshot17
08-22-2005, 01:02 AM
Here's a related question. Frank Thomas is essentially holding a playoff roster spot that they can fill with anyone else if he does not return from the DL. Can they fill it with ANYBODY? That is, if they were to trade for Griffey after Sept 1, can they put him in that slot? Or does it have to be someone in the organization on Sept 1?

Well, I don't really understand the Thomas question, I assumed he was 60 day DL'd and will be 60'd again when those are up. But either way, no trades can happen post sept. 1, that is the waiver trade deadline. So either way that should help with that question.

I Think this deal is dead. I would love for it to happen, But the Reds have other options. Trade Sean Casey, and move Dunn to 1b ( where he spent a good amount of time before). They could move Kearns or Dunn in the off season, although the odds of moving Dunn and Griffey are highly unlikely. Griffey and Dunn could bring in the most pitching. They also could move Griffey in the offseason to another suitor, when more could be looking for CF help and more chips could be added to the pot. I have been one of the biggest, " Lets get Griffey here" voices around, but it just seems unlikely.

I don't think there is any hold up on the Sox Part, and thats why I feel like the deal wont happen. JR saying, Money is not an issue may be true. We may have offered Young and any 2 pitching prospects not named Brandon, and the Reds really just might want to hold on. The New Ownership might be saying let us come in, let us do as we will with our team. We are basically running the triathalon to get this man [ GM-Owner-New Owners].

I wouldnt mind seeing a Sean Casey or someone come over cheaply, solid 300 hitter, good power to the gaps.

No matter what, I do not think anything happens this week. Kenny takes the week and see's how the team reponds. If we Struggle, he may get someone. If they do well, he may not feel the need to over pay.

JB98
08-22-2005, 01:47 AM
I was never on the Spiezio bandwagon. I was on the Joe Randa bandwagon. The night I mentioned Spiezio was after a bad defensive game by Crede (the game where he did his best 1919 White Sox World Series impression and dropped Manny Ramirez's foul popup) and I was a little upset at the time I made that suggestion.

I was just throwing out names. I never wanted Spiezio over Randa.

And Jjav, come on, are you still defending Crede? .237, .290, .416.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=782593&postcount=172

Mike Sweeney is the answer. His batting average with men in scoring position and with two outs is high. He can help us while not hurting us at the same time with his contract like Griffey's would. The Sox also have a position for him to play next year with Konerko being a FA.

You were on the Randa bandwagon, huh?

Randa's numbers since he was traded to the Padres:

.233 avg., 1 HR, 8 RBI

Boy, numbers like those are a huge upgrade over Crede. It's too bad White Sox Josh got banned. He and his Randa minions have been discredited.

Flight #24
08-22-2005, 08:59 AM
I Think this deal is dead. I would love for it to happen, But the Reds have other options. Trade Sean Casey, and move Dunn to 1b ( where he spent a good amount of time before). They could move Kearns or Dunn in the off season, although the odds of moving Dunn and Griffey are highly unlikely. Griffey and Dunn could bring in the most pitching. They also could move Griffey in the offseason to another suitor, when more could be looking for CF help and more chips could be added to the pot. I have been one of the biggest, " Lets get Griffey here" voices around, but it just seems unlikely.



Here's the problem with that. First off, Casey's got an equally bad contract, but for a ton less production. They're got little to no chance of moving that deal without eating a ton of cash, and even then they'll get little back in return because Casey's simply not that good. Think Mark Grace-lite.

Second, Griffey's value declines after the season. Teams will have a ton of other options, plus any team that takes him on will be looking to get their "Griffey value" in his regular season play, i.e. he'll need to stay healthy for another 162. For the Sox, if he can stay healthy and produce over the next 6 weeks+playoffs, they pretty much get most of the value they want. Thus their risk of him getting injured is a lot lower and his value is therefore higher.

If they don't deal him now, I don't see them dealing him in the offseason. They could deal one of the other OFs, but IMO that's dumb because looking at his last 5 years, Griffey's a pretty good bet to get hurt at some point, and in any case, the financial flexibility from unloading the Griffey contract will provide a better pitcher than anyone they get from trading any of the younger guys except Dunn. And Dunn's the best one.

Letmehearya
08-22-2005, 09:02 AM
I too have great confidence in KW. I have no faith in and don't trust JR. "Money's not an obstacle?" C'mon.

mdep524
08-22-2005, 12:35 PM
Here's the problem with that. First off, Casey's got an equally bad contract, but for a ton less production. They're got little to no chance of moving that deal without eating a ton of cash, and even then they'll get little back in return because Casey's simply not that good. Think Mark Grace-lite.

Second, Griffey's value declines after the season. Teams will have a ton of other options, plus any team that takes him on will be looking to get their "Griffey value" in his regular season play, i.e. he'll need to stay healthy for another 162. For the Sox, if he can stay healthy and produce over the next 6 weeks+playoffs, they pretty much get most of the value they want. Thus their risk of him getting injured is a lot lower and his value is therefore higher.

If they don't deal him now, I don't see them dealing him in the offseason. They could deal one of the other OFs, but IMO that's dumb because looking at his last 5 years, Griffey's a pretty good bet to get hurt at some point, and in any case, the financial flexibility from unloading the Griffey contract will provide a better pitcher than anyone they get from trading any of the younger guys except Dunn. And Dunn's the best one. Flight, you articulate it so well. It really makes sense. Too bad the Reds aren't thinking things through like this (unless they're "bluffing"). BTW, Anderson and McCarthy with the Sox picking up Griffey's whole contract is just not a good deal for the Sox, so if that's what it comes down to I'm going to have to say "pass."

Iguana775
08-22-2005, 12:45 PM
My thoughts are that there wouldnt be ANY talks if it wasn't a possiblity. the Reds could just say that Griffey isn't available. But since there is/was talks, that tells me that he could be traded.

GAsoxfan
08-22-2005, 12:49 PM
BTW, Anderson and McCarthy with the Sox picking up Griffey's whole contract is just not a good deal for the Sox,

Not to mention impossible. There is no way Anderson or McCarthy would clear waivers.

maurice
08-22-2005, 02:48 PM
Randa's numbers since he was traded to the Padres:
.233 avg., 1 HR, 8 RBI
Boy, numbers like those are a huge upgrade over Crede.

Sadly, you should have omitted the teal. Crede's great July didn't hold up.
Crede in August: .118 AVE, .167 OBP, .196 SLG, 1 HR, 1 RBI.

Ol' No. 2
08-22-2005, 02:57 PM
Well, I don't really understand the Thomas question, I assumed he was 60 day DL'd and will be 60'd again when those are up. But either way, no trades can happen post sept. 1, that is the waiver trade deadline. So either way that should help with that question.

I Think this deal is dead. I would love for it to happen, But the Reds have other options. Trade Sean Casey, and move Dunn to 1b ( where he spent a good amount of time before). They could move Kearns or Dunn in the off season, although the odds of moving Dunn and Griffey are highly unlikely. Griffey and Dunn could bring in the most pitching. They also could move Griffey in the offseason to another suitor, when more could be looking for CF help and more chips could be added to the pot. I have been one of the biggest, " Lets get Griffey here" voices around, but it just seems unlikely.

I don't think there is any hold up on the Sox Part, and thats why I feel like the deal wont happen. JR saying, Money is not an issue may be true. We may have offered Young and any 2 pitching prospects not named Brandon, and the Reds really just might want to hold on. The New Ownership might be saying let us come in, let us do as we will with our team. We are basically running the triathalon to get this man [ GM-Owner-New Owners].

I wouldnt mind seeing a Sean Casey or someone come over cheaply, solid 300 hitter, good power to the gaps.

No matter what, I do not think anything happens this week. Kenny takes the week and see's how the team reponds. If we Struggle, he may get someone. If they do well, he may not feel the need to over pay.Thomas is on the 15 day DL. If he is on the 15-day DL on Sept 1, he's eligible to be on the playoff roster IN ADDITION TO the other players on the 25-man active roster. If he is unable to play, they can substitute another player who would otherwise not be playoff eligible. My question is, does that player have to be in the Sox organization on Sept 1?

There CAN be traded after Sept 1. Players would have to pass through waivers again, but they can be traded. But unless he's going to be playoff-eligible, there's little incentive to do the trade.

GoGoSoxReborn
08-24-2005, 10:22 AM
Boy I would feel 100% more confident if the White sox added one more bat to the lineup. Getting Scotty back is going to be great, but almost all of our hitters look absolutely lost at the plate.

Jermaine has cooled off.
Arrow has had a terrible year trying to find his swing.
AJ's been mediocre lately
Crede is Crede.
Uribe is Uribe.
and Timo Perez should be on the bench 6 days a week

1917
08-24-2005, 10:40 AM
I just can't believe, even if it's not Griffey, that KW, the King of Trades, can't find a bat in all those players that cleared waivers....

mrwag
08-24-2005, 10:56 AM
Thomas is on the 15 day DL. If he is on the 15-day DL on Sept 1, he's eligible to be on the playoff roster IN ADDITION TO the other players on the 25-man active roster. If he is unable to play, they can substitute another player who would otherwise not be playoff eligible. My question is, does that player have to be in the Sox organization on Sept 1?

There CAN be traded after Sept 1. Players would have to pass through waivers again, but they can be traded. But unless he's going to be playoff-eligible, there's little incentive to do the trade.
The problem is, if something isn't done NOW, we won't need to worry about the playoff roster. I can't believe how this team has crashed.

oeo
08-24-2005, 12:00 PM
The problem is, if something isn't done NOW, we won't need to worry about the playoff roster. I can't believe how this team has crashed.

I didn't know that we've dropped to second place. As far as I know we still have a 7 game lead. Hello mrpessimism...

enurb
08-24-2005, 12:55 PM
Griffey is the antidote.

1. He is a stud/ Everett can't carry us where we are going.

Griffey has an OPS over 900, 28 HR, and plays great defense, even at age 35. He blows Everett away in every facet of the game. He has the ability to put a team on his back and carry it. Everett plays hard and is a gamer to be sure, but he doesn't have the numbers or stature of Griffey.

2. Look at our lineup after adding him:

Pods - LF
Gooch - 2B
Griffey - RF
Konerko - 1B
Dye/Everett - DH
Rowand - CF
AJ Pie - C
Crede - 3B
Uribe - SS

3. Baseball needs this story:

In the steroid era, Griffey has been surpassed by the likes of Raffy, Sosa, McGwire and Bonds. He has remained clean -- nobody has reported him as a steroid user. What better story could there be -- Mr. Clean coming in at the twilight of his career, leading a desperate organization to the title, taking back the glory and thunder that was stolen from him by the aforementioned group of liars and cheaters, and solidifying his place in Cooperstown. This was going to be Frank's story before his injury -- but there is no reason Griffey can't make it his own.

4. KW can't afford not to add him:

This year is turning into "the year KW failed to pull the trigger and go for it", rather than KW's defining moment as a brilliant GM. We did the same thing in 2000. Nobody will fault KW for emptying the cupboard for Griffey, no matter the financial cost. I'll take 4 years of a barren minor league system in exchange for a shot at a World Series. Who wouldn't?

Make it happen KW.

Later, Brune

1917
08-24-2005, 12:56 PM
Add it to the pile in Whats the Score...

FanofBill
08-24-2005, 01:00 PM
Not only from us fans but from the media too.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/john_donovan/08/24/griffey.trade/index.html?cnn=yes


I hope KW is doing something in that office of his, 7 more days to do it. I was one of the guys that was satisfied with what we have but after the last week and a half: KW, take on the whole KG's salary, if that's what it takes to get it done. This might be our only chance to go deeper in the playoffs and eventually the World Series.

Dan H
08-24-2005, 01:03 PM
There is no use in speculating about Griffey. From all indications, he is not coming here. I just hope that the slump is that, just a slump and not a Chicago baseball collapse. The White Sox are going to sink or swim without him. Why drive yourself crazy thinking about it?

Brian26
08-24-2005, 01:06 PM
There is no use in speculating about Griffey. From all indications, he is not coming here. I just hope that the slump is that, just a slump and not a Chicago baseball collapse. The White Sox are going to sink or swim without him. Why drive yourself crazy thinking about it?

Obviously it's in Cincinnatti's hands. I don't understand why people keep pleading to KW. What they need to do is plead to the Reds' owner.

Baby Fisk
08-24-2005, 01:06 PM
Why drive yourself crazy thinking about it?Everyone is going crazy these days, Mr. H. This is the first serious skid of the entire season and it's getting under everyone's skin. The atmosphere around here is koo koo.

Question: what happens if/when Griffey DOESN'T come to Chicago?

Soxzilla
08-24-2005, 01:10 PM
Everyone is going crazy these days, Mr. H. This is the first serious skid of the entire season and it's getting under everyone's skin. The atmosphere around here is koo koo.

Question: what happens if/when Griffey DOESN'T come to Chicago?

Just pray to god our bats are hot in October.

Otherwise, this is 2000 all over again.:whiner:

Rikirk
08-24-2005, 01:14 PM
Reading that article made a lot of sense..

But as it said...It may make too much sense to actually happen.

C'mon...theres got to be some way to get it to happen.

If JR. came here, there is a 78% chance he (and the Sox) would be in the World Series...and could possibly walk away as Champions. Has anyone told him this, and isnt it what he wants?


Ill say it before...ill say it again. The corporate suits are the lowest form of humanity.:angry:

LVSoxFan
08-24-2005, 01:19 PM
I know this is in what's the score, but it's very timely after a night like last night.

What's the worst thing we could lose going for Jr.? Money. If we don't, and the skid continues, we are going to be talking about this until next April, 2006.

Why oh why did KW not take the big leap when our offense needed a shot in the arm and we still had a lead? Why? The idea of this being our offseason thought haunts me.

So let's say we DO get him and we still lose out. Okay. Then we know it's because the team just sucked and blew it 2nd half. KW can't take the blame 'cause he made the big trades, and his pre-season gambles on Pods and Iguchi turned out to be golden.

I hear a lot of talk from the Sox front office about not wanting to upset the "chemistry" of the team. What chemistry? On the offense? Are you kidding?

But keep that in mind if we manage to slide all the way out of playoff contention: do you really want to spend the next year wondering why we didn't make that one stinkin' trade?

Or let's use some other logic: many have pointed out our losing record since Pods has been out. OBVIOUSLY one guy can affect the chemistry of the team, so don't tell me adding somebody like Jr. won't possibly give us a big jolt. And suppose we do that AND Pods is back--LOOK OUT.

We need to mount a campaign to get this guy like we did for Pods in the ASG.

Jjav829
08-24-2005, 01:20 PM
Dave van Dyck had an article about this situation today.

Lindner owns 49 percent of the Reds. The other 51 percent is for sale, and a group in northern Kentucky supposedly is interested. The word around Cincinnati is that the prospective buyers won't invest unless Griffey is part of what they own, perhaps explaining Lindner's reluctance.

One other insider insisted Lindner's vetoing the supposed deal might have had as much to do with the Sox insisting the Reds pay 60 percent of the $40 million still owed Griffey and offering three players in return that did not include a No. 1-type pitcher.

Link (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-050823soxgriffey,1,1101829.story?coll=cs-home-headlines)

None of us knows for sure what the truth is behind the situation. If it is the latter though, then JR needs to be willing to take on whatever amount of Griffey's contract to get this done.

Griffey has the potential to have a Beltran-like impact on this team in the postseason. I'm sure everyone remembers what Carlos Beltran did for he Astros last season in the playoffs. Well, right now the Sox don't have that type of player. Acquiring Ken Griffey Jr. would give us a player who has that ability to almost single-handedly change the course of every game. Take on his whole contract. Move whatever prospects the Reds want. I don't care. The bottom line is that we need this trade to happen too much.

Aside from the hitting Griffey can give us, there are other benefits. The crowd was chanting "We want Griffey" the other day. Factor in Griffey drawing more fans, attention to the team, etc. The Sox really do need this trade to happen.

JB98
08-24-2005, 01:27 PM
Just pray to god our bats are hot in October.

Otherwise, this is 2000 all over again.:whiner:

It has the same feel, but it is different. In 2000, our entire pitching staff got hit with injuries. This year, our pitching is just outstanding. Yet the offense is still finding a way to screw this up.

We're not going to get Griffey. The Reds just don't want to do it. What can KW do? We don't know the whole truth about the situation, but it sounds like Kenny's hands are tied.

twsoxfan5
08-24-2005, 01:28 PM
Obviously it's in Cincinnatti's hands. I don't understand why people keep pleading to KW. What they need to do is plead to the Reds' owner.

You're exactly right Brian. It was reported on Am1000 this morning that the Griffey deal was 15 min from going to print and everything was completed except that they need approval from the last Reds owner, Linder. Apparently one of the owners was in on the deal and they all thought that it was going to go through, but when it was but on the desk of Linder he scrapped the deal. So KW is doing what he can but it is not likely that the deal is going to happen unless this owner has a big change of heart.

ChiSoxBobette
08-24-2005, 01:30 PM
Griffey is the antidote.

1. He is a stud/ Everett can't carry us where we are going.

Griffey has an OPS over 900, 28 HR, and plays great defense, even at age 35. He blows Everett away in every facet of the game. He has the ability to put a team on his back and carry it. Everett plays hard and is a gamer to be sure, but he doesn't have the numbers or stature of Griffey.

2. Look at our lineup after adding him:

Pods - LF
Gooch - 2B
Griffey - RF
Konerko - 1B
Dye/Everett - DH
Rowand - CF
AJ Pie - C
Crede - 3B
Uribe - SS

3. Baseball needs this story:

In the steroid era, Griffey has been surpassed by the likes of Raffy, Sosa, McGwire and Bonds. He has remained clean -- nobody has reported him as a steroid user. What better story could there be -- Mr. Clean coming in at the twilight of his career, leading a desperate organization to the title, taking back the glory and thunder that was stolen from him by the aforementioned group of liars and cheaters, and solidifying his place in Cooperstown. This was going to be Frank's story before his injury -- but there is no reason Griffey can't make it his own.

4. KW can't afford not to add him:

This year is turning into "the year KW failed to pull the trigger and go for it", rather than KW's defining moment as a brilliant GM. We did the same thing in 2000. Nobody will fault KW for emptying the cupboard for Griffey, no matter the financial cost. I'll take 4 years of a barren minor league system in exchange for a shot at a World Series. Who wouldn't?

Make it happen
Later, Brune

It ain't gonna happen, not as long as we have the ownership we do.

twsoxfan5
08-24-2005, 01:32 PM
It ain't gonna happen, not as long as we have the ownership we do.

For once I dont think we can blame our ownership.

DAllen15
08-24-2005, 01:37 PM
[QUOTE=
Question: what happens if/when Griffey DOESN'T come to Chicago?[/QUOTE]


With the team we have right now, even when Pods gets healthy, it's hard to imagine that they will be able to get the run production to be successful deep into the playoffs, or even in the 1st round. Maybe it just seems that way because of the last 10 games. But outside of one explosive inning on Sunday, we're still in the same rut. Freddie pitches a one ****ing hitter last night and the Sox couldn't even get a runner to 3rd.

As it sits right now, there is no one to fear in our lineup, another intangible that we lost with Frank. I hope they snap out of it, but championships are won at the end of the season, not the beginning. Ozzie/Kenny and the group have consistently taken the position that this is a balanced team w/no superstars, so the team was winning because it played consistently as a unit.

Well the downside to that is that a Superstar can carry or jumpstart a team out of an offensive slump (ala D Lee on the Flubbies). If we don't have that, we need a couple of guys to get going at the same time.

Can anyone say with confidence that we are going to snap out of it and start manufacturing the 3-4 runs per game we will need to win? Even with the strong pitching performances we've enjoyed this year and over the last two weeks, teams like Bos/NY/Angels/CLE are gonna put runs on the board.

So to answer your question, if we don't add Griffey or another hitter to spark the offense, the post season looks grim. I feel this team is savvy enough to see it's way through to the division title, but when you don't score runs, and don't put pressure on the other teams defense, you leave no margin of error for your defense.

But hey, it's baseball, anything can happen!

enurb
08-24-2005, 02:14 PM
If not Griffey, then what about Huff. I don't know if the stats bear it out, but my memory is that he hits well at the Cell.

I've read that Huff has cleared waivers. He seems like a gamer too. He also makes Blum expendable -- that guy has done nothing and our record is abysmal since we got him. While we're on the subject of Blum, I'd rather have Harris or Gload over Blum.

enurb
08-24-2005, 03:22 PM
Can the Huff idea. Apparently he didn't clear waivers. My bad.

harwar
08-24-2005, 04:06 PM
Ill say it before...ill say it again. The corporate suits are the lowest form of humanity.:angry:

The corporate suits now rule the world.
One thing is for sure the next 7 days will be interesting as i'm sure KW will get someone.

Randar68
08-24-2005, 04:23 PM
It ain't gonna happen, not as long as we have the ownership we do.

How is it our ownership's fault Cinci won't trade Griffey? Heck, how many big-names ACTUALLY were traded? Exactly... teams just weren't willing to give up..

Randar68
08-24-2005, 04:24 PM
With the team we have right now, even when Pods gets healthy, it's hard to imagine that they will be able to get the run production to be successful deep into the playoffs, or even in the 1st round. Maybe it just seems that way because of the last 10 games. But outside of one explosive inning on Sunday, we're still in the same rut. Freddie pitches a one ****ing hitter last night and the Sox couldn't even get a runner to 3rd.

As it sits right now, there is no one to fear in our lineup, another intangible that we lost with Frank. I hope they snap out of it, but championships are won at the end of the season, not the beginning. Ozzie/Kenny and the group have consistently taken the position that this is a balanced team w/no superstars, so the team was winning because it played consistently as a unit.

Well the downside to that is that a Superstar can carry or jumpstart a team out of an offensive slump (ala D Lee on the Flubbies). If we don't have that, we need a couple of guys to get going at the same time.

Can anyone say with confidence that we are going to snap out of it and start manufacturing the 3-4 runs per game we will need to win? Even with the strong pitching performances we've enjoyed this year and over the last two weeks, teams like Bos/NY/Angels/CLE are gonna put runs on the board.

So to answer your question, if we don't add Griffey or another hitter to spark the offense, the post season looks grim. I feel this team is savvy enough to see it's way through to the division title, but when you don't score runs, and don't put pressure on the other teams defense, you leave no margin of error for your defense.

But hey, it's baseball, anything can happen!

Well said. It doesn't help that Ozzie seems to have 2 scrubs out there almost every night these days... When was the last time we had our whole starting lineup in a game?

TDog
08-25-2005, 12:36 AM
... It was reported on Am1000 this morning that the Griffey deal was 15 min from going to print and everything was completed except that they need approval from the last Reds owner, Linder. Apparently one of the owners was in on the deal and they all thought that it was going to go through, but when it was but on the desk of Linder he scrapped the deal. So KW is doing what he can but it is not likely that the deal is going to happen unless this owner has a big change of heart.

I haven't read the entire thread. I have a job and stuff. But this is point, made by at least a couple of people, really is THE point.

What I hate most about this whole Griffey thing is the way it's making Sox fans sound like Cubs fans. Like we deserve Griffey so all manage has to do is go get him. Like, "who do the Reds think they are not giving us Griffey."

The Sox picked up Reds a Reds Slugger in late August of 1959, before beating out the Indians to go to the World Series. Obviously there would be an appealing symmetry. But I'm sure the Sox are doing what they can to get Griffey. People act as if Sox management is like the mother who tells her little kids on Christmas morning that Santa Claus didn't come because she forgot to leave the door unlocked.