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View Full Version : Buehrle in big games...


BainesHOF
08-18-2005, 01:06 PM
often spits the bit. A few weeks ago my post on this was for some reason moved to the Parking Lot, but you know it's true if you've paid close attention the past two or three years.

The reason is his stuff isn't overwhelming. His style of pitching is good enough to beat most teams, but against the good ones and the times he faces a real ace, he has more than his share of trouble.

I'd like to see Garland start Game 1 of the playoffs. If he's on, opponents will not have an answer for him. Plus I think Garland can now handle the pressure. It's my opinion that he now gets off on being the big man on the mound.

I'll tell you what. Garcia has better stuff than Buehrle and a reasonable argument could be made that Garcia should start the second game. Then there's El Duque's excellent track record of success in the playoffs...

I think starting Buehrle any later than Game 2 would create more controversy than it's worth, even though it could be warranted, but if the playoffs were to start next week, I'd definitely start Garland in Game 1.

Tekijawa
08-18-2005, 01:11 PM
Good points! I'm gald he's cleared waivers, you think anyone would give us anything for him? I just want him off the team at this point!

Lip Man 1
08-18-2005, 01:11 PM
It would depend on the match up and I think based on Ozzie's comments that he feels the same way.

Lip

JUribe1989
08-18-2005, 01:14 PM
In the immortal words of Jim Mora: PLAYOFFS?!? PLAYOFFS?!? I just hope we can win another game.:D:

Soxzilla
08-18-2005, 01:15 PM
You're not in the boat alone, my friend. I've been pondering the same thing the past week or so as well.

He's sucked against Boston twice, he has sucked against Oakland 2 or 3 times, he blew it today against Minnesota, and he blew it earlier in the year against Minnesota as well.

However. There is refuge. The defense behind him, in at least 75% of the games mentioned, has been absolutely brutal.

The defense needs to start picking it up when Burly-mon is on the mound. Or else he suffers, and we lose.

He still starts game 1, imo.

hose
08-18-2005, 01:18 PM
Burl's was good enough to start the All-Star game and he is also our best pitcher.

Do you think NY, Boston, or the Angels wouldn't love to have him?

rookieroy
08-18-2005, 01:23 PM
I almost agree with this. Buehrle has shown over the last few years that he has pitched with difficulty in big games or against better teams. I would say that Burls needs to start game 1 or 2 simply because he might not get it done in games 3/4 or 6/7. I hate to say this but if past performance is any indication of future results.....here it is. :(:

cubhater
08-18-2005, 01:25 PM
Burl's was good enough to start the All-Star game and he is also our best pitcher.

Do you think NY, Boston, or the Angels wouldn't love to have him?

Agreeing with you 100%. However, just as Soxzilla pointed out, he's struggled against Boston and Oakland, two teams we may face in the playoffs. I'd rather see Ozzie start someone else against either of those teams unlike Lamont who stuck with Black Jack who struggled against the Jays in '93.

Ol' No. 2
08-18-2005, 01:29 PM
Agreeing with you 100%. However, just as Soxzilla pointed out, he's struggled against Boston and Oakland, two teams we may face in the playoffs. I'd rather see Ozzie start someone else against either of those teams unlike Lamont who stuck with Black Jack who struggled against the Jays in '93.McDowell didn't struggle against the Jays. They were reading his mail. He was tipping his pitches and they figured it out. If it hadn't been the case the results would have been entirely different.

chisox83
08-18-2005, 01:31 PM
In the immortal words of Jim Mora: PLAYOFFS?!? PLAYOFFS?!? I just hope we can win another game.:D:
Hilarious and true.

Fungo
08-18-2005, 01:35 PM
However. There is refuge. The defense behind him, in at least 75% of the games mentioned, has been absolutely brutal.

The defense needs to start picking it up when Burly-mon is on the mound. Or else he suffers, and we lose.
He works too fast and doesn't give his defense time to get set.

JB98
08-18-2005, 01:47 PM
I think starting Buehrle any later than Game 2 would create more controversy than it's worth, even though it could be warranted, but if the playoffs were to start next week, I'd definitely start Garland in Game 1.

It depends on who we play. Buerhle pitched two strong games against Anaheim this year, although both were no-decisions. On the road, he threw nine innings of one-run ball. We won 2-1 in 11 innings after a clutch double by Iguchi. The other outing was the day of Frank's return. Buehrle took a 3-2 lead into the ninth. Marte blew it, and then Timo came to the rescue in the bottom of the ninth, resulting in a 5-4 Sox win. The moral of the story is Buerhle starts game one if we play Anaheim.

If we see Oakland or Boston, JG gets the ball in game one. Jon has two wins over Oakland and one over Boston this season.

Another note on Buerhle: He's 8-2 at home and 5-4 on the road this year. If he doesn't start the first game, I think he pitches the second game because he's much better at the Cell than he is on the road. And Freddy is much better on the road than he is at the Cell. Garcia starts game three, no matter what, as far as I'm concerned.

Garcia has been dominant in both of his starts at Oakland since he joined the White Sox. Last year, he collected a 5-2 win over the A's on the left coast. This season, he pitched eight innings of one-run ball. We lost the game 2-1 in extra innings. That was the Crede/Wendlestedt game.

I'm not as fearful of Oakland as some posters because we'll have the opportunity to set our rotation for that series. Hopefully, Ozzie will give the ball to JG in the opener and have him in line to pitch a possible game five. And we'll have Freddy pitch in Oakland, where he has had good success. We'll be OK.

PaulDrake
08-18-2005, 01:49 PM
often spits the bit. A few weeks ago my post on this was for some reason moved to the Parking Lot, but you know it's true if you've paid close attention the past two or three years.

The reason is his stuff isn't overwhelming. His style of pitching is good enough to beat most teams, but against the good ones and the times he faces a real ace, he has more than his share of trouble.

I'd like to see Garland start Game 1 of the playoffs. If he's on, opponents will not have an answer for him. Plus I think Garland can now handle the pressure. It's my opinion that he now gets off on being the big man on the mound.

I'll tell you what. Garcia has better stuff than Buehrle and a reasonable argument could be made that Garcia should start the second game. Then there's El Duque's excellent track record of success in the playoffs...

I think starting Buehrle any later than Game 2 would create more controversy than it's worth, even though it could be warranted, but if the playoffs were to start next week, I'd definitely start Garland in Game 1. Buerhle has little margin for error. Like you said, he doesn't have overpowering speed. Additonally he's usually around the plate. If the ball isn't moving right for him he is very hittable. What I like about Mark is that he battles every hitter and doesn't give up on those days when he's not at his best. The fact is that Mark is a guy who's always going to have to work real hard to be successful. He's one of my favorite players on the team and I wish him continued success for many years. We just don't have an ace in the true sense of the word. An ace like Santana was last night. All of our starting five have be at their best from here on out.

captain54
08-18-2005, 01:53 PM
unfortunately, we expect every game that Buehrle throws to be stellar due to the lack of offense and that is totally unrealistic....

Ozzie/KW/JR went with the "small ball" philosophy, and IMHO, it was mostly an economic decision....they wanted to pony up for pitching rather than hitting...we are now seeing the negative effects of their change in philosophy...

what really puzzles me more than anything is this resistance to make any additions and improvements offensively because "we've gotten this far with the guys that we have".....it's incomprehensible that at this point, with only 6 weeks left in the season, we have no viable replacement for Big Frank and Posednick....those are two massive holes in the lineup....also, the bottom of the lineup is absolutely killing the Sox, and yet, those guys are in there everyday, no matter what, it seems....

I can think of at least 5 games where lack of offense cost Buerhle a win....if I was a starting pitcher for the Sox, I would have to be wondering what the hell is going on....

the powers that be in the Sox organization knew full well that August would be a make or break month, due to the brutal schedule....yet, the best we can do is Blum and Anderson.....thank God for Bobby Jenks, one of the only bright spots in the second half of this season...

LVSoxFan
08-18-2005, 01:54 PM
Buehrle tops out at 88--I watch all his pitches when he's there. For that kind of velocity, he's gonna have to have placement to compensate (like a Maddux) or a hell of a breaking ball. Duh, I know. But I wondered if anybody knew that: he never throws in the 90s.

That said, Ozzie has said he will do whatever he wants with the lineup in the playoffs and I have no doubt he will start pitchers based on the matchups and not on some pre-set order.

I do agree with the thought, though: I love Buehrle and think he's great, but he has been less than impressive the second half. Especially last night. They were just rockin' him.

SIDE NOTE: can somebody explain to me what happens when pitchers "tip pitches"? I remember hearing that about Contreras in spring training. What do they do that "tips" them?

balke
08-18-2005, 01:57 PM
Boston has a lot of good lefties in the lineup that pounded him good. That's the only team I worry about him facing.

Ol' No. 2
08-18-2005, 02:08 PM
Buehrle tops out at 88--I watch all his pitches when he's there. For that kind of velocity, he's gonna have to have placement to compensate (like a Maddux) or a hell of a breaking ball. Duh, I know. But I wondered if anybody knew that: he never throws in the 90s.

That said, Ozzie has said he will do whatever he wants with the lineup in the playoffs and I have no doubt he will start pitchers based on the matchups and not on some pre-set order.

I do agree with the thought, though: I love Buehrle and think he's great, but he has been less than impressive the second half. Especially last night. They were just rockin' him.

SIDE NOTE: can somebody explain to me what happens when pitchers "tip pitches"? I remember hearing that about Contreras in spring training. What do they do that "tips" them?I've seen Buehrle hit 90 and 91, but it's not often.

Tipping pitches varies from pitcher to pitcher. I don't know what McDowell was doing. Maybe someone else here does.

In Contreras' case, it was a matter of wiggling his glove when he changes his grip. If you notice, he always begins with the forkball grip, then changes it when he is going to throw a fastball. Hitters were picking up on the subtle movement of his glove when he changed his grip.

34 Inch Stick
08-18-2005, 02:08 PM
The only reason I would start him in Game 2 is so he could pitch in Game 5. I will take my chances with Burhle every time.

BeviBall!
08-18-2005, 03:36 PM
I feel the same way. I think this will change in October... but he has not faired well against the big dogs.

ChiSoxRowand
08-18-2005, 03:48 PM
I would still stick with Buehrle in game 1, but if Garland started it wouldn't be that big a deal. You have to start Garcia in game 3, he has to pitch on the road.

LVSoxFan
08-18-2005, 04:18 PM
I've seen Buehrle hit 90 and 91, but it's not often.

Tipping pitches varies from pitcher to pitcher. I don't know what McDowell was doing. Maybe someone else here does.

In Contreras' case, it was a matter of wiggling his glove when he changes his grip. If you notice, he always begins with the forkball grip, then changes it when he is going to throw a fastball. Hitters were picking up on the subtle movement of his glove when he changed his grip.

I have noticed that and it took me a while to figure out that he's not throwing a forkball on every pitch, LOL. I've stood behind him in the bullpen and watched him do what--I can't believe he gets the ball between his fingers like that!

Thanks for the explanation.

bluestar
08-18-2005, 04:49 PM
I've always wondered what McDowell was doing in '93 that tipped the Blue Jays, too.

I think the key to beating Buehrle is to make him work. The teams he has the most trouble with are the teams that know how to really work a pitcher. Both Boston and Oakland are very good at fouling off pitches and working long at bats. On the other hand, Cleveland, for example, (much like the Sox) tends to be impatient at the plate, and Buehrle has more success against teams like that.

Argalarga
08-18-2005, 05:06 PM
If we're not talking about matchups, I'd go with El Duque in Game 1 purely on the basis of his playoff experience. Get the first game out of the way with your most seasoned post-season (!) guy. Then you've got MB and JG in Games 2 and 3 to back him up.

sas1974
08-18-2005, 05:12 PM
If we're not talking about matchups, I'd go with El Duque in Game 1 purely on the basis of his playoff experience. Get the first game out of the way with your most seasoned post-season (!) guy. Then you've got MB and JG in Games 2 and 3 to back him up.

This was initially my thought as well, but....He has a tendency to throw A LOT of pitches and if he were to get knocked out early, that could kill our bullpen for the rest of a short series. I don't have the stats to back it up, but the two Cubans are the guys that seem most likely to leave a game early.

Sxy Mofo
08-18-2005, 06:20 PM
However. There is refuge. The defense behind him, in at least 75% of the games mentioned, has been absolutely brutal.

The defense needs to start picking it up when Burly-mon is on the mound. Or else he suffers, and we lose.


Bingo. What kind of pitcher is buehrle? strike out pitcher? pop-fly pitcher? Nope, ground ball pitcher. and where are most error's made? On throws and on ground ball plays, not fly balls. He needs a good defense to be effective because teams are going to put the bat on the ball.

And these errors have started to come in the last month. why? lack of concentration due to a big lead in the central.

I ask a lot of questions. and i answer them all! ha.

Cowhead418
08-18-2005, 07:01 PM
Ehhhhh... I can see where Buehrle might be seen as a pitcher who struggles in a big game, and there is no doubt that he HAS struggled in some big games this year, but what have we Sox fans always seen him as these past few years? A stopper. He usually is the guy we can rely on to put a stop to those losing streaks. Aren't those considered big games? Sure he didn't come through last night but with the way Santana pitched and how pathetic our offense has been, he would have needed to be nearly perfect.

BainesHOF
08-19-2005, 01:07 PM
Ehhhhh... I can see where Buehrle might be seen as a pitcher who struggles in a big game, and there is no doubt that he HAS struggled in some big games this year, but what have we Sox fans always seen him as these past few years? A stopper. He usually is the guy we can rely on to put a stop to those losing streaks.

Don't get me wrong. I like Buehrle a lot and overall he's pitched well. However, I would respond to your post by saying that anyone pitching after our fifth starter in past seasons was going to look good. That position had a chance to be a stopper in virtually every outing.

Cowhead418
08-19-2005, 03:32 PM
Don't get me wrong. I like Buehrle a lot and overall he's pitched well. However, I would respond to your post by saying that anyone pitching after our fifth starter in past seasons was going to look good. That position had a chance to be a stopper in virtually every outing.
That's a very good point.:D: