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kermittheefrog
11-27-2001, 05:02 PM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/20011127daily.html

beausox
11-27-2001, 08:30 PM
Kermit, glad to see their is another Baseball Prospectus worshipper on here. Its a great website. I am a lon time believer in range factor, OBP, and OPS. Instead of reading Gammons, Kurkjan, and Stark who have no idea how to judge players, I read Neyer, James, Sheehan, Karhl, etc. The best part about the site has got to be the Transaction Analysis.

Preach on Brother (I can't believe I just typed that), maybe someday, everyone will understand why Derek Jeter is a horrible defensive SS.

kermittheefrog
11-27-2001, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by beausox
Kermit, glad to see their is another Baseball Prospectus worshipper on here. Its a great website. I am a lon time believer in range factor, OBP, and OPS. Instead of reading Gammons, Kurkjan, and Stark who have no idea how to judge players, I read Neyer, James, Sheehan, Karhl, etc. The best part about the site has got to be the Transaction Analysis.

Preach on Brother (I can't believe I just typed that), maybe someday, everyone will understand why Derek Jeter is a horrible defensive SS.

Wow, this board really HAS changed since I was last posting regularly.

bringbackrobin
11-28-2001, 12:28 AM
I also read baseball prospectus every day, and the transaction analysis is by far the best part. But remember, it doesn't do any good to substitute one dogma for another. BP makes mistakes too.

Also, I can't stand OPS. It is such an arbitrary statistic, is it really that hard to look at OBP and SLG separately? For instance, take two players, we'll call them player A and player B.

A .308 OBP .467 SLG
B .359 OBP .419 SLG

Which player would you choose? I hopeyou said player B, if not, I believe Chuck LaMar has a job for you. Player A is Vinny Castilla, Player B is Robin Ventura. Ventura is clearly the better player, yet they have a nearly identical OPS.

kermittheefrog
11-28-2001, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by bringbackrobin
I also read baseball prospectus every day, and the transaction analysis is by far the best part. But remember, it doesn't do any good to substitute one dogma for another. BP makes mistakes too.

Also, I can't stand OPS. It is such an arbitrary statistic, is it really that hard to look at OBP and SLG separately? For instance, take two players, we'll call them player A and player B.

A .308 OBP .467 SLG
B .359 OBP .419 SLG

Which player would you choose? I hopeyou said player B, if not, I believe Chuck LaMar has a job for you. Player A is Vinny Castilla, Player B is Robin Ventura. Ventura is clearly the better player, yet they have a nearly identical OPS.

I completely understand what you're saying but OPS can be useful. Realistically you always want as much information as possible but let's say you're making a post on a message board, you don't want to run down the guy's stats, or you'll get flamed on, like what used to happen to me all the damn time.

FarWestChicago
11-28-2001, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


I completely understand what you're saying but OPS can be useful. Realistically you always want as much information as possible but let's say you're making a post on a message board, you don't want to run down the guy's stats, or you'll get flamed on, like what used to happen to me all the damn time. Kermit, you got flamed because of your attitude. Now that you have mellowed out, I look forward to reading your posts. :smile:

bringbackrobin
11-28-2001, 12:54 AM
well, did you like the Neyer impression at least?

bringbackrobin
11-28-2001, 01:09 AM
By the way, do either of you have a HACKING MASS team?

kermittheefrog
11-28-2001, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by bringbackrobin
By the way, do either of you have a HACKING MASS team?

I have one. I think it was Henry Blanco, Wally Joyner, Rey Sanchez, Joe Randa and Derek Bell.

bringbackrobin
11-28-2001, 05:20 PM
That's cool, mine also has Blanco, plus Rico Brogna, David Bell, and Doug Glanville. I can't for the life of me remember who my shortstop was, though.

beausox
11-28-2001, 05:51 PM
Rob Neyer is a great baseball guy. I just bought his new book, Feeding the Green Monster, it should be on everyone's Christmas list.

I did have a HACKING MASS team it included Felix Martinez, Derek Bell, and a host of others I can't remember. At the all-star break I was in the upper third. I can't wait to see the final standings.

Kermit, keep putting up stats, I'll support you, numbers never lie.

ma-gaga
11-28-2001, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by beausox
numbers never lie.

No, but they hide the truth!!! Evil sabermetrics, evil very evil.

- What's the matter, don't you ever watch the games?

- I just know that he's a good player...

- I don't believe in OBP or that other new fangled statistics...

:) :) :)

kermittheefrog
11-28-2001, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga


No, but they hide the truth!!! Evil sabermetrics, evil very evil.

- What's the matter, don't you ever watch the games?

- I just know that he's a good player...

- I don't believe in OBP or that other new fangled statistics...

:) :) :)

Get with the times! OBP was invented by Branch Rickey! It's not new, it might even be older than FWC! :smile:

And of course sabermetricians watch games, if we didn't watch games we wouldn't know how perfect our stats are.

But realistically, yes sometimes the numbers hide the truth but just as often subjective answers hide the truth too. It's like two sides of a coin, they are both there and both valuable. I just like a stats a little more.

FarWestChicago
11-28-2001, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Get with the times! OBP was invented by Branch Rickey! It's not new, it might even be older than FWC! :smile: Hey!! I'm not that old, damnit!! Now you're picking up bad habits from some of the other guys. :D:

Jerry_Manuel
11-28-2001, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Hey!! I'm not that old, damnit!! Now you're picking up bad habits from some of the other guys. :D:

Me? Bad habits? I think not.

ma-gaga
11-29-2001, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Get with the times! OBP was invented by Branch Rickey! It's not new, it might even be older than FWC! :smile:

And of course sabermetricians watch games, if we didn't watch games we wouldn't know how perfect our stats are.

But realistically, yes sometimes the numbers hide the truth but just as often subjective answers hide the truth too. It's like two sides of a coin, they are both there and both valuable. I just like a stats a little more.


'yes, but I just know that player X (we'll call him 'Royce') is a good player. I don't care if he's only hitting 0.175, slugging 0.250, has an OBP of 0.290 and has a range factor of 2.6, HE'S A GOOD PLAYER! and nothing you say can make me change my mind... '

I just love those arguments. :)