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Madvora
08-01-2005, 12:10 PM
I'm not trying to start a rumor here, but I'm tracking down a rumor that's going around.

There are some post on the Orioles board that mention Palmiero testing positive for steroids. Now, I assumed these were troll posts, but they mentioned that WFAN out of NY is reporting this. So I checked out the Yankees and Mets boards and they are saying the same thing.

The word is that MLB will annouce this soon. It might be BS, but I wanted to check and see if anyone else heard anything.

santo=dorf
08-01-2005, 12:15 PM
According to nyyfans.com, WFAN in New York is reporting Raffy tested positive for roids. It's also all over the O's message boards.

SpartanSoxFan
08-01-2005, 12:17 PM
According to nyyfans.com, WFAN in New York is reporting Raffy tested positive for roids. It's also all over the O's message boards.

This happened just recently? When was he tested? I'm shocked.

Soxzilla
08-01-2005, 12:17 PM
What an idiot.

balke
08-01-2005, 12:18 PM
YOU CAN PUT IT ON THE BOARRRRD YYYEEESSSSS!!!

Color me shocked

I loved seeing all those players lined up at the steroid hearings with shrunken foreheads, and the veins in their necks slowly disappearing.

Fenway
08-01-2005, 12:18 PM
well now that pretty much ends the Hall of Fame debate on him

Madvora
08-01-2005, 12:20 PM
All rumors so far, but just want to let you know where I'm seeing this...

http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=ml-orioles&msg=22651.1&ctx=0

http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=ml-mets&msg=125048.1&ctx=0

http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=ml-yankees&msg=150896.1&ctx=0

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php?t=87022

http://fanzone.msgnetwork.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=889660&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Soxzilla
08-01-2005, 12:23 PM
well now that pretty much ends the Hall of Fame debate on him

Where the hell have you been?

PatK
08-01-2005, 12:23 PM
Nothing on MLB.com yet.

fquaye149
08-01-2005, 12:23 PM
well...we always knew he wasn't opposed to performance enhancing drugs

:D: :D: :D:

Tekijawa
08-01-2005, 12:24 PM
The man is all enhanced!!! Steroids and Viagra!

downstairs
08-01-2005, 12:25 PM
well now that pretty much ends the Hall of Fame debate on him

I would hope it does, but if I were a betting man, I would bet on him making it just fine.

MLB is going to completely softball this. I am sure the party line will be "I'm sorry. I tried them once because I was afraid of my numbers getting worse ad I got older. I'd never tried them before just a few weeks ago".

Or, "I was given some cream by a trainer, and I didn't know what it was".

Blah, blah, blah....

Madvora
08-01-2005, 12:25 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=55330
I started this thread in "What's The Score?"

I have some links to the other message boards out there.

zach23
08-01-2005, 12:25 PM
Maybe SamMe was sharing his "Flintstone vitamins" with Raffy.

DumpJerry
08-01-2005, 12:25 PM
Fan boards not named "White Sox Interactive" are meaningless for accurate news. Wait for an official source before spreading this further.

TheOldRoman
08-01-2005, 12:26 PM
well...we always knew he wasn't opposed to performance enhancing drugs

:D: :D: :D:
http://www.kreweofbacchus.org/kandt/images/ed_macmahon.jpg
HIYOOOHH!

Fenway
08-01-2005, 12:26 PM
http://www.redsoxnation.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=17195&pid=364865&st=20&#entry364865


CONFIRMED
Palmeiro suspended for drug policy violation
By Hal Bodley, USA TODAY
Baltimore Orioles first baseman Rafael Palmeiro, who testified before Congress on March 17 that he'd never used steroids, was suspended by Commissioner Bud Selig on Monday for 10 games for violating baseball's drug policy. (Related video: Palmeiro testifies before Congress (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/graphics/steroid_scandal/flash06.htm))

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/orioles/2005-08-01-palmeiro-suspension_x.htm

itsnotrequired
08-01-2005, 12:28 PM
http://www.redsoxnation.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=17195&pid=364865&st=20&#entry364865


CONFIRMED
Palmeiro suspended for drug policy violation
By Hal Bodley, USA TODAY
Baltimore Orioles first baseman Rafael Palmeiro, who testified before Congress on March 17 that he'd never used steroids, was suspended by Commissioner Bud Selig on Monday for 10 games for violating baseball's drug policy. (Related video: Palmeiro testifies before Congress (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/graphics/steroid_scandal/flash06.htm))

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/orioles/2005-08-01-palmeiro-suspension_x.htm

Holy crap!!!

pdimas
08-01-2005, 12:28 PM
Looks like no Raffy for today's game.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/baseball/mlb/08/01/steroids.suspension.ap/index.html

What a shame and after just getting his 3,000th hit.

Fenway
08-01-2005, 12:28 PM
CONFIRMED

Palmeiro suspended for drug policy violation
By Hal Bodley, USA TODAY
Baltimore Orioles first baseman Rafael Palmeiro, who testified before Congress on March 17 that he'd never used steroids, was suspended by Commissioner Bud Selig on Monday for 10 games for violating baseball's drug policy.
http://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gifhttp://images.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/_photos/2005-08-01-inside-palmeiro.jpghttp://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gifhttp://images.usatoday.com/_common/_images/clear.gif
The announcement was made prior to the Orioles 12:35 p.m. ET game at Camden Yards against the Chicago White Sox.



http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/orioles/2005-08-01-palmeiro-suspension_x.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/orioles/2005-08-01-palmeiro-suspension_x.htm)

spawn
08-01-2005, 12:28 PM
Until I see it reported by the major sports outlets and not message boards, I won't believe it.

Edit- ok, now I believe it...You knew a major MLB star was gonna test positive. I just wouldn't have thought it would be Palmeiro...I always thought the guy was the epitome of class, and believed his testimony at the hearings. I'm eager to see what he says about this...

cheeses_h_rice
08-01-2005, 12:30 PM
Just confirmed on the Score, too.

:supernana:

JUribe1989
08-01-2005, 12:31 PM
Yeah, I don't want him in the hall of fame anymore. I can't believe someone could still be this stupid. What a joke. Enjoy your time off Raffy.

cheeses_h_rice
08-01-2005, 12:32 PM
Gee, do you think Jose Canseco is smiling right about now?

Jjav829
08-01-2005, 12:32 PM
Well, that's surprising.

There was a rumor going around this past week that a superstar MLB player had tested positive and that it would be announced Monday as MLB didn't want to ruin HOF weekend by announcing it before today. I guess that rumor was true. I can't wait to hear Raffy's response.

UofCSoxFan
08-01-2005, 12:33 PM
Question:

Are the possible legal ramifications for this? i.e. testifying before congress that "I have never taken steroids," could lead to an investigation as to whether he has taken steroids before (very likely seeing how if you do it AFTER testifying before Congress and AFTER testing was increased, you sure as hell did it before unless you are a complete moron). If it is proven that he lied to Congress, he's looking at time in Federal "to quote Office Space or not...hmm don't want to get banned" Prison.

Iwritecode
08-01-2005, 12:33 PM
http://www.redsoxnation.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=17195&pid=364865&st=20&#entry364865


CONFIRMED
Palmeiro suspended for drug policy violation
By Hal Bodley, USA TODAY
Baltimore Orioles first baseman Rafael Palmeiro, who testified before Congress on March 17 that he'd never used steroids, was suspended by Commissioner Bud Selig on Monday for 10 games for violating baseball's drug policy. (Related video: Palmeiro testifies before Congress (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/graphics/steroid_scandal/flash06.htm))

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/orioles/2005-08-01-palmeiro-suspension_x.htm

So I guess that means he won't be in the lineup today?

Tekijawa
08-01-2005, 12:33 PM
This could mean Jail time for him right? Essentially he lied under oath at the hearings then or would perjury count here?

tlebar318
08-01-2005, 12:34 PM
I did not know it was steroids...I thought it was Viagra! :D:

--Raffy Palmeiro on 8/1/05 when asked by the press about his suspension-

UofCSoxFan
08-01-2005, 12:34 PM
Until I see it reported by the major sports outlets and not message boards, I won't believe it.

Edit- ok, now I believe it...You knew a major MLB star was gonna test positive. I just wouldn't have thought it would be Palmeiro...I always thought the guy was the epitome of class, and believed his testimony at the hearings. I'm eager to see what he says about this...

Didn't Palmero sleep with Sandburg's wife, causing them to get divorced and for him to subsequently be traded/released from the Cubs? Classy.

ChiWhiteSox1337
08-01-2005, 12:34 PM
Gee, do you think Jose Canseco is smiling right about now?
Ryne Sandberg, too. He's had a good 24 hours.

itsnotrequired
08-01-2005, 12:34 PM
Official thread over in Talking Baseball:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=55331

Clembasbal
08-01-2005, 12:34 PM
This is total crappy/awesome.

For some reason I feel vindication that Canseco was at least somewhat accurate and that steroids are everywhere in baseball. It is good because a big name is finally out there, and that his stats are not going to mean much if this is true and the Hall-of-Fame comes calling.

Then it is crappy because baseball needs to change ASAP and 10 days isn't much. Then Raffy lied underoath to congress and that he can be put in jail because of perjury, which is sad. But steroid abusers should be in jail anyway for what they have done to baseball.

cheeses_h_rice
08-01-2005, 12:35 PM
This could mean Jail time for him right? Essentially he lied under oath at the hearings then or would perjury count here?

No way to prove he had taken 'roids before his testimony before Congress, though.

Soxzilla
08-01-2005, 12:35 PM
This could mean Jail time for him right? Essentially he lied under oath at the hearings then or would perjury count here?

They'd have to prove that he took them before he testified, he could always say he just started.

Vernam
08-01-2005, 12:35 PM
Depending on exactly when he tested positive, Raffy could be subject to perjury charges for his testimony before Congress.

Really takes a damper off the 3,000th hit, doesn't it? I've got no sympathy for him, but I do wish it were Sosa instead.

VC

Iwritecode
08-01-2005, 12:35 PM
This could mean Jail time for him right? Essentially he lied under oath at the hearings then or would perjury count here?

They'd have to prove that he took them before the hearings...

Fenway
08-01-2005, 12:36 PM
They'd have to prove that he took them before the hearings...

He wasn't there to talk about the past :rolleyes:

Risk
08-01-2005, 12:37 PM
:nandrolone

"Hey Raffy, have you seen Shammy's Flinstone viamins. Shammy knows average and horuns down, and me need to find em. OK, who wiseguy who took Shammy's viamins? Anyone? Anyone?"

Risk

Uncle_Patrick
08-01-2005, 12:37 PM
FYI, ESPN is reporting it, too.


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2121659

1951Campbell
08-01-2005, 12:38 PM
Seriously, Raffy, how stupid are you? Sheesh.

TheOldRoman
08-01-2005, 12:39 PM
I can't wait to hear Raffy's response.
http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/3897.jpg
"I was given a cream to use on my upper lip. My stylist gave me the cream and said it would stimulate hair growth. I do not know what it contains, but I was assured there were no performance inhancing chemicals in it."

cheeses_h_rice
08-01-2005, 12:39 PM
Sammy "the Runt" Sosa has to be breathing a sigh of relief. Of all the people who testified before Congress, IMO Sosa and McGwire were the obvious poster children for 'roids, but now only Raffy has been proven to be a liar.

Sosa dodged a bullet, technically speaking, but I think his numbers this year tell the true story.

Risk
08-01-2005, 12:40 PM
Seriously, Raffy, how stupid are you? Sheesh.

True. One has to be on a whole new level of stupidity to pull something like this off.

Risk

Madvora
08-01-2005, 12:40 PM
Please combine with this one...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=55331

TheOldRoman
08-01-2005, 12:40 PM
Didn't Palmero sleep with Sandburg's wife, causing them to get divorced and for him to subsequently be traded/released from the Cubs? Classy.
Oh, come on. Sandburg deserved it.:cool:

ChiFabulous1
08-01-2005, 12:41 PM
Do you think that stupid 3000 hit banner in balt. comes down today

Fenway
08-01-2005, 12:41 PM
ESPN.com news services

Baltimore Orioles (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=bal) first baseman Rafael Palmeiro (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=3897) will be suspended by Major League Baseball for violating the league's steroids policy, ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney has confirmed with a league source.





Rafael Palmeiro (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=3897)
First Base


Baseball's prescribed minimum penalty is a 10-game suspennsion.

Palmeiro, who recently got his 3,000th career hit, was noted for his emotional denial of steroid use before a Congressional panel in March, would be the latest player suspended under the league's new drug policy.

The image of Palmeiro taking a sweet swing from the left side of the plate has been replaced in some minds by the sight of him testifying before a House committee investigating steroids in baseball.

The hearing included testimony from Jose Canseco, who in his book cited Palmeiro and several other players as steroid users. Palmeiro emphatically denies using the performance-enhancing drug, but the Baltimore Orioles' first baseman can't deny how perceptions have changed.

"In my opinion, everyone that plays baseball in this era has been tainted," Palmeiro said during spring training. "Not just the people that he has named in the book, I think this whole era over the last 10, 15 or 20 years has been tainted. Regardless of whether you did or you didn't do anything, this whole era will have that label."

Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.

zach23
08-01-2005, 12:41 PM
Sammy "the Runt" Sosa has to be breathing a sigh of relief. Of all the people who testified before Congress, IMO Sosa and McGwire were the obvious poster children for 'roids, but now only Raffy has been proven to be a liar.

Sosa dodged a bullet, technically speaking, but I think his numbers this year tell the true story.

Has Sosa been tested? If not, I wonder what the hold up is.

Tekijawa
08-01-2005, 12:41 PM
Do you think that stupid 3000 hit banner in balt. comes down today

They should replace it with a GNC ad!

tlebar318
08-01-2005, 12:42 PM
Rafy just released a statement and I am listening on XM to the game. Baltimore announcers are reading it--"Never intentionally used steroids and he has filed a greivance" What a jerk....

mccoydp
08-01-2005, 12:42 PM
Didn't Palmero sleep with Sandburg's wife, causing them to get divorced and for him to subsequently be traded/released from the Cubs? Classy.

Damn, you beat me to it.

SpammySosa
08-01-2005, 12:43 PM
http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/3897.jpg
IN OTHER NEWS,THE BALTIMORE ORIOLES HAVE CALLED A PRESS CONFERENCE WITH RAFAEL PALMEIRO AND SAMMY SOSA'S INTERPRETER.:D:

UofCSoxFan
08-01-2005, 12:43 PM
there's a thread on this in talking baseball...mods we should merge.

I brought up the Perjury charge too (great minds think alike).

I still have that image of Palmero shaking his finger at a US Congressman for bringing him there...something that was inappropriate even if he was innocent. The fact that he was guilty...what a joke.

I for one am glad to see Canseco vindicated. Yes, he took steroids, yes he helped spread them throughout the league, and yes he gaind substantially for his book on the subject. However, by "naming names" he was ostrecized from baseball, hated by many, called a liar, etc...and he stood firm. You look at all those peolple in that room, and he was the only one concerned about the game, about the safety of others, and about integrity. Curt Schilling repeatedly claimed how steroids weren't a big problem...well now that Palmero is guilty, Canseco has confessed, that leaves Sosa and known Andro user, Mark "I plead the Fifth" McGuire as the only two non-steroid users on the panel (not counting Frank of course). Well Sosa is about 40 pounds lighter this year and anyone with one eye can tell McGuire was roiding...so give me a break Curt.

duke of dorwood
08-01-2005, 12:43 PM
Do you think that stupid 3000 hit banner in balt. comes down today

They can put his blood count on it

duke of dorwood
08-01-2005, 12:44 PM
Farmer says Palmeiro stmt was he has been suspended, but he took nothing

Tekijawa
08-01-2005, 12:45 PM
Farmer says Palmeiro stmt was he has been suspended, but he took nothing

You usually get 10 days off after you get your 3000th hit, I think they do it for everyone!

cheeses_h_rice
08-01-2005, 12:46 PM
Has Sosa been tested? If not, I wonder what the hold up is.

If he's tested now, it's too late. Sosa is obviously "clean" compared to the 1998-2002 version of himself. Sosa is just another deflated balloon a la Brett Boone, Ivan Rodriguez or Ryan Klesko. Unca Bud saved his ass; Raffy is just stupid.

TheOldRoman
08-01-2005, 12:47 PM
I hope and dream that they catch Sosa. That would be great, but something tells me Bud would destroy the test results, just like he destroyed the results of Sosa' bat x-rays.

It appears as though Sosa isn't as dumb as Raffy. He is much much smaller than in the past, and is playing horribly. Palmeiro is a moron. He has 500 homers. He is an old man. He could have just stopped in the offseason, watched the numbers plummet, and claimed it was a natural decline with age. I guess his ego convinced him he was bigger than the game and bigger than testing. He better not get into the hall still. I have a feeling he will, there are a lot of morons who vote.

duke of dorwood
08-01-2005, 12:47 PM
Here is a real test case for the "tough drug policy" of baseball

Heffalump
08-01-2005, 12:49 PM
Crap, Raffy has been giving me some good points on my fantasy team!!!

On a serious note, after the Congressional hearings, Palmeiro was the guy I believed the MOST out of all the guys. At least this shows that MLB's testing procedures ARE legit and they DO go after the big names instead of just a few bench guys/minor leaguers.

White Sox Randy
08-01-2005, 12:50 PM
ALL TOGETHER NOW ;


WE'RE SORRY JOSE !

Jerko
08-01-2005, 12:51 PM
Pretty sad when Canseco is the only guy telling the truth. Someone has to know when this test was taken too, but I'm sure nothing will happen to him for lying in front of Congress.

SpammySosa
08-01-2005, 12:51 PM
Cubune headline:
Palmeiro tests positive for steroids;could Frank be next?

Irishsox1
08-01-2005, 12:54 PM
Anyone mentioned in Canseco's book, I believe took steroids. Yes, Canseco took 'roids, but he only named guys that he knew were on the juice.

My question is how does Curt Shilling feel about this now? All he did on the stand is attack Conseco and now Palmeiro has tested positive. I guess Conseco was telling the truth. Shilling is just as much of an idiot as Palmeiro.

nug0hs
08-01-2005, 12:55 PM
Good to know that Jose was right...expect the national media to drop to their knees and beg for forgiveness this week!

Fenway
08-01-2005, 12:56 PM
About 2 years ago Jose was on WEEI and said "The truth will come out"


Of course they used the soundbyte over and over for months.

I guess Jose has the last laugh

iamkoza
08-01-2005, 12:57 PM
Fan boards not named "White Sox Interactive" are meaningless for accurate news. Wait for an official source before spreading this further.

hawk just read the same thing,... wow!!

Garland_IS_God
08-01-2005, 12:58 PM
They just announced it on the Sox game. I didn't read everybody's posts so sorry if somebody already posted it.

rowand33
08-01-2005, 01:00 PM
http://espn.go.com/i/mlb/profiles/players/4344.jpg

"Wait, you mean I still could've been using steroids for half a season at least?

****!

Raffy, we were supposed to be teammates man!"

koch44
08-01-2005, 01:03 PM
Rafael's statement according to mlb.com:

"I am here to make it very clear that I have never intentionally used steroids. Never. Ever. Period."- Rafael Palmeiro

fado
08-01-2005, 01:03 PM
I really enjoy how Raffy says in his statement that he never "intentionally" used steriods.

Yeah they were for the arthritis.

Garland_IS_God
08-01-2005, 01:05 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2121659



In remarks prepared for a conference call Monday, Palmeiro said he had accepted his punishment and could not explain how the steroids got into his body.
"I have never intentionally used steroids. Never. Ever. Period," he said. "Ultimately, although I never intentionally put a banned substance into my body, the independent arbitrator ruled that I had to be suspended under the terms of the program."

---What a load of crap!

fquaye149
08-01-2005, 01:06 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2121659



In remarks prepared for a conference call Monday, Palmeiro said he had accepted his punishment and could not explain how the steroids got into his body.
"I have never intentionally used steroids. Never. Ever. Period," he said. "Ultimately, although I never intentionally put a banned substance into my body, the independent arbitrator ruled that I had to be suspended under the terms of the program."

---What a load of crap!

i wish there were a "blah blah blah" smiley. This will have to do: :rolleyes:

Rocklive99
08-01-2005, 01:07 PM
Wow, just heard this during the telecast.

And Canseco sounds a little more credible, just last week I heard him on an interview on ESPN Radio (mostly about the Surreal Life) where he still stood strongly that Palmeiro took steroids, in fact he was positive, because he injected him. The weird thing is, he was the only one I actually believed out of Canseco's accused bunch.

Selig has his big fish, but not sure if "the beloved" 500 hr/3000 hit player

LuvSox
08-01-2005, 01:10 PM
Sosa slipped him a Mickey

chuckn98229
08-01-2005, 01:10 PM
Were those his own words or was he quoting Sammy?

Vernam
08-01-2005, 01:11 PM
Pete Rose may be about to get company on the Hall of Fame black list. Getting caught taking steroids is bad enough, but lying to Congress ought to keep Raffy out of the Hall. I realize it isn't an indictable offense if they can't prove Palmeiro took performance enhancers before his testimony, but it's close enough to keep him out of the Hall. Or should be, IMO.

VC

The Dude
08-01-2005, 01:15 PM
I think if Palmeiro gets inducted to the hall, there should and most likely will be a protest at the ceremony because every single stat he has produced must be under question
.
Good to see this policy working, but 10 games is still very very weak. It should be at least a month or two. Palmeiro down, I-Rod next???? Stay tuned.

Madvora
08-01-2005, 01:15 PM
The timing of this is incredible too. Right after his 3,000's hit.

Is that "Congratulations Raffy!" banner still out there in RF?

Garland_IS_God
08-01-2005, 01:16 PM
Sosa slipped him a Mickey

I was thinking the same thing. :D:

Rocklive99
08-01-2005, 01:17 PM
http://www.topnotchforums.com/forum/images/smiles/blah.gif
I knew Canseco was telling a truth, the proof is in the pudding! Palmeiro tests positive, Pudge loses like 20 pounds, Bonds breaks down and actually admitted to using them, Giambi had already admitted to it, Bret Boone forgets how to hit and is released by his 2nd team of the season, Juan Gonzalez hasn't been able to put a season together for years, Sosa goes back to skinny Dominican warrior and forgets how to hit.

Poo, meet fan. Fan, here comes poo.

Lip Man 1
08-01-2005, 01:19 PM
Frank Thomas' numbers look better and better don't they?

Lip

Mendoza Line
08-01-2005, 01:19 PM
Wow, I couldn't believe it when I saw the headline. Just yesterday I was telling my dad how much I respect the guy. It's amazing how a revelation like that can change how you think of someone altogether.

The scariest part is that it lends credibility to what Jose Canseco said about him...

PaulDrake
08-01-2005, 01:20 PM
Sammy "the Runt" Sosa has to be breathing a sigh of relief. Of all the people who testified before Congress, IMO Sosa and McGwire were the obvious poster children for 'roids, but now only Raffy has been proven to be a liar.

Sosa dodged a bullet, technically speaking, but I think his numbers this year tell the true story. His body, batting average and power numbers have all shrunk.

DumpJerry
08-01-2005, 01:22 PM
The scariest part is that it lends credibility to what Jose Canseco said about him...
I was thinking the same thing about his book in general. They all attacked Conseco like he was the Plague. What goes around, comes around.

wilburaga
08-01-2005, 01:22 PM
Q: What, never?

A: No, never!

Q: What, never?

A: Well, hardly ever!

After Raffy's sanctimonious performance at the Congressional hearings, I don't think the baseball world will take kindly to this development.

W

34rancher
08-01-2005, 01:25 PM
Well, that's surprising.

There was a rumor going around this past week that a superstar MLB player had tested positive and that it would be announced Monday as MLB didn't want to ruin HOF weekend by announcing it before today. I guess that rumor was true. I can't wait to hear Raffy's response.

Makes you wonder if he tested positive before or after his 3000 hit. And if they did hold out on announcing the test results until after HOF, then that taints the testing procedure as much as not announcing it. It just shows that the commish will show favorable treatment towards one player that it would not show another.

MLB = JOKE!!!!

Rocklive99
08-01-2005, 01:27 PM
Yeah, this whole testing program is still a joke. The punishment was supposed to be 10 games and public humiliation. Palmeiro will say he didn't take anything, just like everyone before him, and then the Bal fans will give him a standing O when he comes back.

The penalties are a joke, and the testing is as well. Big shock how Giambi has learned how to hit a big fly? They can't test for HGH! Give me blood testing!

TornLabrum
08-01-2005, 01:27 PM
Q: What, never?

A: No, never!

Q: What, never?

A: Well, hardly ever!

After Raffy's sanctimonious performance at the Congressional hearings, I don't think the baseball world will take kindly to this development.

W

The first thing I thought of is that it may really hit the fan if anybody in that committee concludes that he perjured himself in a Congressional hearing. I think that his lawyer thinks the out in his statement is the use of the word "knowingly."

VeeckAsInWreck
08-01-2005, 01:31 PM
Good to know that Jose was right...expect the national media to drop to their knees and beg for forgiveness this week!

How soon do you think we will we see T-shirts that say JOSE WAS RIGHT.

LuvSox
08-01-2005, 01:34 PM
I take back all of the positive things I've posted about him lately.

MsSoxVixen22
08-01-2005, 01:41 PM
It was the Viagra!

Jaffar
08-01-2005, 01:42 PM
Now maybe we know the friend Onterrio Smith was taking the Original Wizzinator too. Raffy failed the test because it never got there. I was thinking about not using teal.

whtsx1959
08-01-2005, 01:43 PM
They say you swallow 7 spiders while sleeping in a lifetime, is it possible to be injected while sleeping?

Rocklive99
08-01-2005, 01:43 PM
Let's not forget, there were also some other things (possibly an article from a while back) that linked Palmeiro to steroids, which is the reason the government gave for calling him to the hearing, not just for the book connection

Viva Medias B's
08-01-2005, 02:05 PM
Maybe Raffy got a hold of former Bears QB Jim Miller's GNC shopping list.

gf2020
08-01-2005, 02:09 PM
It really irks me that MLB possibly sat on this for any period of time. The vetoed Nevin deal was a week ago, wasn't it?

Fenway
08-01-2005, 02:12 PM
Statement from Rafael Palmeiro
08/01/2005 12:51 PM ET

Baltimore Orioles

Thank you very much for joining me on this call today. I am saddened that we are here to address this issue, but because of the importance of it, I feel the need to make a brief statement and address your questions. At the outset, let me say that under the rules of the basic agreement and the order of the independent arbitrator, there is an order of confidentiality governing the specifics of this case. I will attempt to state as much as I can and be as forthright as possible, but there will be issues I can't address based on orders imposed on me by the basic agreement and the arbitration process.



I am here to make it very clear that I have never intentionally used steroids. Never. Ever. Period.

When I found out that I failed a test under the new drug policy, I filed a grievance and challenged the suspension on the basis that I have never intentionally taken a banned substance. Ultimately, although I never intentionally put a banned substance into my body - the independent arbitrator ruled that I had to be suspended under the terms of the program.

I am sure you will ask how I tested positive for a banned substance. As I look back, I don't have a specific answer to give. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to explain to the arbitrator how the banned substance entered my body. The arbitrator did not find that I used a banned substance intentionally - in fact, he said he found my testimony to be compelling - but he ruled that I could not meet the heavy burden imposed on players who test positive under the new drug policy.

I accept this punishment and want to address it publicly. I want to apologize to MLB, the Baltimore Orioles organization, my teammates, and most of all, my fans. Given my role with the No Tolerance Committee and my relationships with Congress, I feel the need to communicate a serious message to my fellow players and to kids everywhere. All of us have to be responsible and exercise extreme care in what we put in our body. I hope that all MLB players and kids will learn from what has happened to me. I have never intentionally used a banned substance, but I unfortunately wasn't careful enough.

I take my role as a professional athlete seriously. I love baseball and have great respect for all of the players who played before me. I have always done my best to live each day in ways that would make my family proud. Everything I have accomplished is the result of hard work and dedication to being the best possible player I can be.

I feel terrible that this has happened, but I think there is something to be gained from it. If my situation results in the education of current and future players about the dangers of taking anything without a prescription from a licensed physician -- that is a positive. At the end of the day, it is important for all players to understand the risk of contamination and to be very careful about what they put in their body.

This suspension is going to be incredibly difficult for me, my wife and my 2 boys. Over the next week and a half, I am going to spend time with my family. I am going to come back and will be as determined as ever to help the Orioles win this pennant race that we are in. We have worked very hard to be in a position to bring our fans a title, and I will not let this be a distraction.

Finally, I would like to thank Commissioner Selig and Mr. Angelos for their strong words of encouragement. I had the opportunity to speak with both of them and I am extremely appreciative of their support and friendship.

Statement from Peter Angelos
Orioles Owner

I am truly saddened by today's events. I have known Rafael Palmeiro for many years. He is a fine person, a great player and a true asset to his community. I know from personal experience that his accomplishments are due to hard work and his dedication to the game.

I know that Rafael will accept the penalty under Baseball's important Drug Policy and that he will return to be a productive member of the Orioles.

Statement from Mike Flanagan
Orioles Vice President/Baseball Operations I am obviously disappointed to hear the news of this suspension. Raffy has been a friend of mine for many years. He is one of the most dedicated and hard-working players in baseball. I know he would not violate the rules intentionally. I look forward to his return. We will surely miss him and his contribution to the club.

Ol' No. 2
08-01-2005, 02:16 PM
Unfortunately, I wasn't able to explain to the arbitrator how the banned substance entered my body.Neither can I, Raffy. Neither can I.:(:

infohawk
08-01-2005, 02:23 PM
I really enjoy how Raffy says in his statement that he never "intentionally" used steriods.

I wonder what happens when you combine steroids with viagra?

The Dude
08-01-2005, 02:32 PM
:tomatoaward

This one's for you Palmeiro....right in the face chump.:D:

tstrike2000
08-01-2005, 02:34 PM
"I am here to make it very clear that I have never intentionally used steroids. Never. Ever. Period."


:?: <-------- "Oh, you mean that "vitamin supplement" I've been taking is a banned substance? Well...I'll be."

DaleJRFan
08-01-2005, 03:15 PM
I have never intentionally used steroids. Never. Ever. Period. Ultimately, although I never intentionally put a banned substance into my body, the independent arbitrator ruled that I had to be suspended under the terms of the program.

ok... maybe you took something from GNC that is on the ban list and you were unaware... MAYBE....

I hope the fans understand I have worked very hard over a long 20-year career. I made a mistake and I'm facing it. I hope people learn from my mistake, and that they forgive me.




Wait, you made a mistake and hope we "fans" can forgive you??? I thought you never intentionally took performance enhancing drugs...

Cheater. Liar.

Flight #24
08-01-2005, 03:23 PM
This doesn't pass any version of the smell test. In general, it's possible that a guy could have taken something with a banned substance on it......but wasn't a pretty big deal made of that in the spring, including the MLBPA / MLB making rounds and discussing exactly that topic? This would especially go for a guy who was part of a friggin congressional hearing into the topic!!

In fact, I specifically recall some commentary that some of the latin players might fall pray to that trap. I don't remember anyone saying "And those latin players who speak fluent english....and are supposedly experts on the usage of drugs in sports.....".

After all of this, we're epxected to believe that Palmeiro put something into his body without knowing 100% what was in it? That's on par with Barry's "flaxseed oil" excuse.

DumpJerry
08-01-2005, 03:28 PM
I printed out his statement so that I can fertilize my lawn tonight.

I guess he won't go out drinking with Scammy after the games any more......

SoxSpeed22
08-01-2005, 03:35 PM
:hurt"Looks like I'm the only 'roid-less slugger left!"

tlebar318
08-01-2005, 03:45 PM
I wonder what happens when you combine steroids with viagra?

There are some jokes there but not appropriate for this forum. I don't want to get any time away from WSI. :tongue:

shoota
08-01-2005, 03:46 PM
Well, that's surprising.

There was a rumor going around this past week that a superstar MLB player had tested positive and that it would be announced Monday as MLB didn't want to ruin HOF weekend by announcing it before today. I guess that rumor was true. I can't wait to hear Raffy's response.

Interesting theory. I can see MLB doing that. Also, Fenway's link mentions yesterday's nationally televised night game, and I wonder if MLB waited one more day to release the suspension to the public. Palmeiro would have received an even bigger black eye had info of his suspension been announced by the national announcers on a night game, as opposed to today's very early day game start which is not televised nationally.

shoota
08-01-2005, 03:47 PM
:hurt"Looks like I'm the only 'roid-less slugger left!"

Cortisone is a steroid...









:duck:





I kid, I kid. :D:

Rocklive99
08-01-2005, 03:55 PM
The government should give subpeonas to all teams to go on the Maury show and take a lie detector test.

I'm waiting for the "Sosa disposed of his batch into my Viagra bottle" excuse. So maybe that's why he needed the Viagra in the first place, the roids may have had the 'Costanza after being in the pool' effect...

mrfourni
08-01-2005, 04:01 PM
The government should give subpeonas to all teams to go on the Maury show and take a lie detector test.



You are NOT the father

Rocklive99
08-01-2005, 04:08 PM
Palmeiro probably wished this game would never end. Press conference about to start on ESPNEWS

mccoydp
08-01-2005, 04:08 PM
You are NOT the father

He NOT my baby daddy.

TornLabrum
08-01-2005, 04:12 PM
Neither can I, Raffy. Neither can I.:(:

Jose Canseco, in order to justify the charges in his book, sneaked into Palmeiro's hotel room and game him a steroid enema while he was sleeping.

Daver
08-01-2005, 04:12 PM
Interesting theory. I can see MLB doing that. Also, Fenway's link mentions yesterday's nationally televised night game, and I wonder if MLB waited one more day to release the suspension to the public. Palmeiro would have received an even bigger black eye had info of his suspension been announced by the national announcers on a night game, as opposed to today's very early day game start which is not televised nationally.

The MLB offices are closed on Sunday, today was the earliest they could have released a decision.

Rooney4Prez56
08-01-2005, 04:21 PM
Palmeiro is in some hot water now.....not only is he going to be percieved as a hypocrite after threatening to sue Canseco over steriod accusations, but this could hurt his Hall of Fame chances. What a terrible turn of events.

shoota
08-01-2005, 04:31 PM
You are NOT the father

haha

[Maury]: "Bring out the next 5."

chaerulez
08-01-2005, 04:32 PM
I always knew Palmerio was a lying piece of crap that juiced up. He was lying at the congress hearings and he's lying today.

SoxyStu
08-01-2005, 04:44 PM
Statement from Rafael Palmeiro
08/01/2005 12:51 PM ET

Given my role with the No Tolerance Committee and my relationships with Congress, I feel the need to communicate a serious message to my fellow players and to kids everywhere. All of us have to be responsible and exercise extreme care in what we put in our body. I hope that all MLB players and kids will learn from what has happened to me. I have never intentionally used a banned substance, but I unfortunately wasn't careful enough.

Learn from me! Learn from me! Oh, the despair... :whiner::whiner::whiner::whiner::whiner:

infohawk
08-01-2005, 04:45 PM
Palmeiro would have received an even bigger black eye had info of his suspension been announced by the national announcers on a night game, as opposed to today's very early day game start which is not televised nationally.

Not to mention on the same day as the MLB Hall of Fame inductions. Can you imagine?

gobears1987
08-01-2005, 04:49 PM
Not to mention on the same day as the MLB Hall of Fame inductions. Can you imagine?
Not to mention on the day that a man who's wife he slept with gets inducted.

downstairs
08-01-2005, 05:59 PM
I truly hope, now that they're essentially out of it, that the O's do the right thing and bench Palmero (and maybe Sosa) for the rest of the season. Maybe even part of next year.

Rocklive99
08-01-2005, 05:59 PM
It's going to be very interesting when in about 10 years or sooner all these guys have massive heart attacks, it should be a lot easier to pick everyone out then

downstairs
08-01-2005, 06:04 PM
It's going to be very interesting when in about 10 years or sooner all these guys have massive heart attacks, it should be a lot easier to pick everyone out then

It's really not that hard right now. The problem isn't picking them out, its the restrictions on testing and the like from the union, etc.

I think anyone that's followed baseball for all of 5-6 years could pick out some names with 100% accuracy.

Where there is smoke there is fire. That's how life works.

downstairs
08-01-2005, 06:07 PM
What I am surprised with is that MLB didn't, the minute congress forced the Union's hand to start testing, that they didn't immediately test Sosa, Bonds, etc.

The MLB is just as much at fault. They knew one guy had to take the fall. That guy is Palmero.

I don't understand random testing. The "random" part should be the day the testing happens... but 100% of the players should be tested.

Ol' No. 2
08-01-2005, 06:23 PM
What I am surprised with is that MLB didn't, the minute congress forced the Union's hand to start testing, that they didn't immediately test Sosa, Bonds, etc.

The MLB is just as much at fault. They knew one guy had to take the fall. That guy is Palmero.

I don't understand random testing. The "random" part should be the day the testing happens... but 100% of the players should be tested.That's the way it works. Everybody gets tested...twice, in fact.

wxkid23
08-01-2005, 06:55 PM
Man... crazy world.

My Dad and I while watching the game last night had a lengthy convo about Raffy and how we both felt he was one of the "natural" big men that actually was very powerful HR hitter and didn't use the roids. All of this also happens while the "3000 hit poster" sits in RF of the yards.

Mr Viagra man.. find a new game.

seanpmurphy
08-01-2005, 07:00 PM
Ban Palmeiro from the hall of fame. I mean, isn't lying before Congress a serious offense? Oh wait, not if your a celebrity. God Bless America.

JB98
08-01-2005, 07:14 PM
:hurt"Looks like I'm the only 'roid-less slugger left!"

This was my reaction exactly. One by one, all of Frank's contemporaries are being discredited. Frank's chances of going into the Hall on the first ballot are improving just because his numbers aren't "enhanced" like Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Canseco, Palmeiro, Gonzalez, et al.

slavko
08-01-2005, 07:25 PM
I wonder what happens when you combine steroids with viagra?

Your arms get very big and you can't lower them below your shoulders.

MarySwiss
08-01-2005, 07:50 PM
Your arms get very big and you can't lower them below your shoulders.

:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

MarySwiss
08-01-2005, 08:17 PM
Your arms get very big and you can't lower them below your shoulders.

And if you're at bat for more than four hours....

Hagan
08-01-2005, 08:30 PM
He is a cheater and an idiot! His whole great career is tarnished because he had to be a fool and take roids this year.

Trav
08-01-2005, 08:45 PM
The MLB offices are closed on Sunday, today was the earliest they could have released a decision.

None of the other players who were caught had a chance to form a statement and appeal before they were suspended and the public notified. This is, clearly, an act that Selig was trying to lessen the blow for one of the games more popular players. I would expect nothing less from Selig if it happens to someone else. The good thing is it appears that not even Selig can let someone get away with this (anyone think that maybe someone had an arbitrator rule in their favor and it wasn't announced?). He can just make it as easy as possible for them. Interesting enough, all of the other players didn't know what they were taking either.:rolleyes: Expect to hear people call for MLB's collective head on this, for not giving players the proper education on what is going to be banned. Rob Dibble, I'm talking about you.

MRKARNO
08-01-2005, 08:51 PM
This is incredible. Raffy Palmeiro did something incredibly stupid here and it's really unfortunate. This doesnt mean for a fact that Canseco is correct or that Raffy has been taking steroids his whole career, but it definitely makes it a much, much more plausible possiblity. Stupid, stupid move.

I don't know, and I dont think anyone really knows, despite what they may claim, the true effect of steroids on the sport. I personally think that they have not had nearly the effect that many firmly believe, but it's clear that they definitely did have an impact. Flyball hitters such as Bonds, Sosa and Raffy definitely had the most to gain out of them IMO, for what I would think to be obvious reasons. Ones with a bad batters eye, ie Sosa, probably had the very most to gain, while ones with a good batters eye, like Giambi, probably could have been good hitters without the roids, but used them to inflate their HR totals.

I won't be too quick to rush to judgement on this issue (something which I think bothers some here), but it is now relatively clear that Palmeiro made an unfortunate decision (or is at least is guilty under the standards of the MLB testing policy) and deserves a beating in the press.

Is he HOF worthy? I'm not sure that he isn't, but I do agree with those that say that it will be much harder for him to get in.

As far as his numbers, what happened happened and they have to be viewed in context, just as all baseball stats are.

I also don't understand why so many are happy. It is good that they are getting the steroids out of the game, but as a baseball fan, I think this whole steroids ordeal is terrible and the more it's in the news and being talked about, the worse. It's a distraction from the game (which is why they need to be rooted out, regardless of their true impact on the game itself) and is just ammo for bashers of the sport. The MLB deserves a bashing after this, but I wouldn't look forward to more positive tests. The fewer, the better.

Rocklive99
08-01-2005, 10:05 PM
He is a cheater and an idiot! His whole great career is tarnished because he had to be a fool and take roids this year.

Let's be realistic here, whether he knew or not (which I think he definately did), I'd be willing to bet this ISN'T (EDIT, no wonder the weird responses, my fault on not rereading my post) the first/only year he's taken them

nedlug
08-01-2005, 10:15 PM
Let's be realistic here, whether he knew or not (which I think he definately did), I'd be willing to bet this is the first/only year he's taken them

Let's be realistic! If there's any year to start taking steroids, especially with his numbers being what they are... basically, Raffy's not a moron. Even Canseco said today on ESPN radio that there's no way he would knowingly take steroids this year.

Rocklive99
08-01-2005, 10:30 PM
Let's be realistic! If there's any year to start taking steroids, especially with his numbers being what they are... basically, Raffy's not a moron. Even Canseco said today on ESPN radio that there's no way he would knowingly take steroids this year.

Unless not taking steroids turns you into Sosa/Boone, maybe he wanted to take his chances. I think it's dumber for him to not know what was going in his body than him knowingly taking the steroids

voodoochile
08-01-2005, 10:34 PM
Let's be realistic here, whether he knew or not (which I think he definately did), I'd be willing to bet this is the first/only year he's taken them

Well, you probably can't lose that bet because proving the other side will be tough, but come on.

Hey, RL99... I've got a great bridge in Brooklyn to sell to you and MrKarno...:rolleyes:

balke
08-01-2005, 10:35 PM
Let's be realistic here, whether he knew or not (which I think he definately did), I'd be willing to bet this is the first/only year he's taken them



HAHAHA. Are you serious? Canseco wasn't lying, its right in our faces. Ask the 30-40 pounds Pudge lost since all the controversy. Ask Sosa's dwindling statistics since the first whispers of a crackdown begin. Ask Jason Giambi and his "stomach virus" and "apology". Ask Mcgwire's disappearing neck veins, and shrunken head. These players are juicers, half of America has known it for 20 years, and NOTHING has been done. Why would Raffy wait til right now to take Steroids? I think its more likely he's got some kind of addiction, some feeling he can get away with it. He felt the pain from playing, felt worn down, and went back to his medicine cabinet. Thank the baseball gods testing is finally here. THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-01-2005, 10:38 PM
I'd be willing to bet this is the first/only year he's taken them

Yeah, sure. Maybe he ate a hot dog with a poppy seed bun, too? That's why he failed his company drug screening test, right?

Here's the simple explanation: Cheaters need to cheat, and addicts are addicted. Palmiero couldn't let go.

If being a cheat and an addict is "dumb", I'll completely agree with you that Palmiero is to be pitied and not held up as a contemptible pig for now lying his ass off rather than just coming clean.

Is it too much to ask these guys to act like MEN and own up for their own actions? For some of us, apparently so.
:(:

MikeKreevich
08-01-2005, 10:42 PM
Let's be realistic here, whether he knew or not (which I think he definately did), I'd be willing to bet this is the first/only year he's taken them
You have got it completely backwards. I'm listening to Robert Saunooke, Jose Canseco's attorney and he believes that metabolites from steriod use can stay in your system for years and show up in steriod tests. He, (Robert Saunooke), implies that Barry Bonds is not playing right now for fear of a chance of a positive test result.

voodoochile
08-01-2005, 10:45 PM
Someone cue Neil Young...

I caught you knockin'
at my cellar door
I love you, baby,
can I have some more
Ooh, ooh, the damage done.

I hit the city and
I lost my band
I watched the needle
take another man
Gone, gone, the damage done.

I sing the song
because I love the man
I know that some
of you don't understand
Milk-blood
to keep from running out.

I've seen the needle
and the damage done
A little part of it in everyone
But every junkie's
like a settin' sun.

Rocklive99
08-01-2005, 10:46 PM
Woah woah woah, Okay I just realized this, no wonder I got a weird response. Typo, which is my bad. What I meant is I'd bet money that this ISN'T the first/only year he's taken them, my fault! No doubt he's done it before, that's why I quoted that guy who wondered why he would do this year after the career he'd had

Fenway
08-01-2005, 10:54 PM
good old Dirt Dog has this gem

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/PALMEIRO-BDD2.jpg
"Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee. My name is Rafael Palmeiro and I am a professional baseball player. I’ll be brief in my remarks today. Let me start by telling you this: I have never used steroids. Period. I don’t know how to say it any more clearly than that. Never. The reference to me in Mr. Canseco’s book is absolutely false." -- 3.17.05, Rafael Palmeiro* testimony to the Committee on Government Reform, United States House of Representatives

http://www.bostondirtdogs.com/

The Racehorse
08-01-2005, 10:59 PM
good old Dirt Dog has this gem



http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/PALMEIRO-BDD2.jpg

"Good morning, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee. My name is Rafael Palmeiro and I am a professional baseball player. I’ll be brief in my remarks today. Let me start by telling you this: I have never used steroids. Period. I don’t know how to say it any more clearly than that. Never. The reference to me in Mr. Canseco’s book is absolutely false." -- 3.17.05, Rafael Palmeiro* testimony to the Committee on Government Reform, United States House of Representatives




*chortle*
:)
:roflmao:

I_Liked_Manuel
08-01-2005, 11:11 PM
The MLB offices are closed on Sunday, today was the earliest they could have released a decision.

fwiw, i heard on friday that a big name would be dropping on monday. a journalist in philly broke the story, i believe. mlb held back so the HOF festivities wouldn't be interrupted/overshadowed

Daver
08-01-2005, 11:12 PM
fwiw, i heard on friday that a big name would be dropping on monday. a journalist in philly broke the story, i believe. mlb held back so the HOF festivities wouldn't be interrupted/overshadowed

MLB never hands out suspensions over the weekend, it always waits till the next business day.

Rocklive99
08-02-2005, 01:35 AM
Interesting interview with Canseco on CNBC. Something I never thought of, Canseco thinks the cause is a trace of steroids from years ago, he said it happened to him when he was clean for months, tested, and tested positive. They are talking about it on this show as this is a flaw, but I love it, because it helps justify the past/hurts those who have been hiding behind it. This makes me very excited that guys like Sosa and others can still get busted, though it may hurt a guy like Giambi.

LuvSox
08-02-2005, 01:43 AM
*chortle*
:)
:roflmao:

Chortle? That's classic!!!!!:D:

The Racehorse
08-02-2005, 07:30 AM
EDIT: the pic of the lying cheat known as Raffy is no longer on the rome web site.

Raffy being daffy... and not being very smart.

Viva Medias B's
08-02-2005, 08:15 AM
The NY tabloids predictably show no mercy to Palmeiro:

http://www.nydailynews.com/ips_rich_content/935-0802bigback.jpghttp://www.nypost.com/img/back080205.gif

Ol' No. 2
08-02-2005, 10:18 AM
Interesting interview with Canseco on CNBC. Something I never thought of, Canseco thinks the cause is a trace of steroids from years ago, he said it happened to him when he was clean for months, tested, and tested positive. They are talking about it on this show as this is a flaw, but I love it, because it helps justify the past/hurts those who have been hiding behind it. This makes me very excited that guys like Sosa and others can still get busted, though it may hurt a guy like Giambi.Makes no sense. They were tested last year. If it's trace metabolites from years ago, why didn't it get caught before?

I also heard Buster Olney opine that Palmiero saw his weak numbers at the beginning of the year and decided he needed to do something and started taking something. Also makes no sense. You don't just pop a 'roid pill in the morning and start whacking HR that night. It's steroids, not spinach.

Look, you don't go into GNC and buy steroid-laced supplements. They're ILLEGAL. If he really did take something unknowingly, all he has to do is show the bottle and tell everyone what it was. There's nothing stopping him from doing so. The confidentiality constraints are meant to protect him. He's not bound by them.

None of this passes the laugh test. As we noted last March 17, it's a pretty sad day when Jose Canseco is the most believable character in this whole mess.

balke
08-02-2005, 11:19 AM
Well, being that steroids help players deal with muscle fatigue and endurance, I wouldn't at all be surprised if Palmeiro tried snagging a designer steroid. How old is he? These superstars think they are above the law.

I think he asked around for something the new tests wouldn't catch, and he got busted doing it. He's an old man playing a sport that can dish out a lot of pain and fatigue. I will never believe that "science failed" or that there is a conspiracy against Palmeiro.

BedfordChisox
08-02-2005, 11:36 AM
Sorry if this has already been posted...

The sports guy on the Fox News Channel this morning said that a NY newspaper is reporting that the failed test actually occurred in early July. The strong implication here was that MLB allowed Raffy to get his 3000th hit before hearing his appeal and dropping the hammer. Several people have written that there was a delay in order to not overshadow the HOF inductions, but what does this say about MLB in general if the newspaper story is true?

For what it's worth, add me to the list of people who think Bonds's current non-playing status has more to do with a previously failed test, or fear of a potential failure. Of course, I hate Bonds, so my opinion on that is predictable and not worth a cup of cheap coffee.

What's interesting in all this is that SI reported back in April that there are over 100 kinds of steroids available to ballplayers, and that any of the detection tests out there are only capable of catching one or two types. So, in addition to Raffy being incredibly stupid, he is also incredibly unlucky. No wonder he's never been on a pennant winner.

Ol' No. 2
08-02-2005, 11:43 AM
Sorry if this has already been posted...

The sports guy on the Fox News Channel this morning said that a NY newspaper is reporting that the failed test actually occurred in early July. The strong implication here was that MLB allowed Raffy to get his 3000th hit before hearing his appeal and dropping the hammer. Several people have written that there was a delay in order to not overshadow the HOF inductions, but what does this say about MLB in general if the newspaper story is true?

For what it's worth, add me to the list of people who think Bonds's current non-playing status has more to do with a previously failed test, or fear of a potential failure. Of course, I hate Bonds, so my opinion on that is predictable and not worth a cup of cheap coffee.

What's interesting in all this is that SI reported back in April that there are over 100 kinds of steroids available to ballplayers, and that any of the detection tests out there are only capable of catching one or two types. So, in addition to Raffy being incredibly stupid, he is also incredibly unlucky. No wonder he's never been on a pennant winner.The test probably occurred even earlier than that. Once a player has tested positive, he can appeal, which he did. It then goes to the Health Policy Advisory Committee for review. Then it goes to the arbitration panel. Conservatively, this takes 3 weeks. More likely, it takes significantly longer. MLB may well have held up the announcement for a few days until after the HOF ceremony, but not likely for a long period of time.

However, I agree that with the large number of undetectable substances available, for him to have used something detectable borders on being criminally stupid.

BedfordChisox
08-02-2005, 12:01 PM
Thanks Ol' No. 2. I figured that there would be some time involved (especially given the sensitivity of the whole thing) but I had no idea it would take that long just following due course. I guess I am surprised that it had been kept quiet so long.

Speaking of sensitivity, what I really don't understand is our President's response to this whole thing (and I'm not a Bush basher). Here's a guy who finds this subject important enough to emphasize it in his State of the Union address, which I'm sure was the whole impetus for Congress to get involved in the first place. Now, the first high profile casuality of baseball's more aggressive testing policy falls, and the President says (essentially) "I believe Palmeiro". I have read where they are friends, and I wouldn't expect Bush to throw him under the bus. But just simply parroting Raffy's "I'm innocent of doing this intentionally" BS is ludicrous. At the very least, Bush should acknowledge that the game is trying to clean itself up, and, as a slick politician, I would expect him to take no small amount of credit for that.

Right, wrong or indifferent, this is the first major domino to fall in this steroids circus. Fans of Frank (and other players who stayed "clean") should be happy. It's slow progress, but the game itself is finally starting to acknowledge the sordid affairs of the past 10 years. The real winners are the guys like Frank who played the game the way it was meant to be played. That is... if there are any real winners in this steaming pile of crap.

RKMeibalane
08-02-2005, 12:22 PM
:hurt

"My HOF chances keep getting better and better because of these idiots."

Rocklive99
08-02-2005, 12:29 PM
Sorry if this has already been posted...

The sports guy on the Fox News Channel this morning said that a NY newspaper is reporting that the failed test actually occurred in early July. The strong implication here was that MLB allowed Raffy to get his 3000th hit before hearing his appeal and dropping the hammer. Several people have written that there was a delay in order to not overshadow the HOF inductions, but what does this say about MLB in general if the newspaper story is true?

For what it's worth, add me to the list of people who think Bonds's current non-playing status has more to do with a previously failed test, or fear of a potential failure. Of course, I hate Bonds, so my opinion on that is predictable and not worth a cup of cheap coffee.

What's interesting in all this is that SI reported back in April that there are over 100 kinds of steroids available to ballplayers, and that any of the detection tests out there are only capable of catching one or two types. So, in addition to Raffy being incredibly stupid, he is also incredibly unlucky. No wonder he's never been on a pennant winner.

I had heard the stuff about waiting until after the HOF, but this is the stuff that really gets me, and probably worried anyone who questioned the policy, the special treatment for superstars. Just the thought of them waiting after the HOF (not knowing when it originally was) gets me mad and suspicious about those that have already tested positive, and the protection of a guy like Shamme. I think ESPN was saying that Palmeiro was the only one who got to appeal before the suspension actually took place, helping the theory that did this happen earlier, and if I were Congress, I'd be really mad at this, that they get to play around (for a lack of a better word) with the results

The Racehorse
08-02-2005, 12:32 PM
The test probably occurred even earlier than that. Once a player has tested positive, he can appeal, which he did. It then goes to the Health Policy Advisory Committee for review. Then it goes to the arbitration panel. Conservatively, this takes 3 weeks. More likely, it takes significantly longer. MLB may well have held up the announcement for a few days until after the HOF ceremony, but not likely for a long period of time.

For me, the timeline in all this has more stink attached to it than anything else... not to mention why Palmeiro's positive test went before an arbitrator while the others [to my knowledge] didn't...

Here's my guess at the timeline;

April: Palmeiro tested.

May: At glacier-like speed, the test finally comes back - positive. In the meantime, Raffy finally starts to put the fat part of the bat on the ball & 3000 hits for his career looks inevitable.

May/June: After the inevitable behind-the-scenes legal maneuvering between MLB & the MLBPA, the case goes through an appellate & arbitrator process. There goes another 3 or 4 weeks [or more].

July: After all the machinations between MLB & MLBPA, it's done... Bud Selig has Raffy nailed. But Bud being Bud, he'll sit on the whole thing because...
1) Palmeiro closes in then gets his 3000th hit. I'm sure Bud thought that the feel-good PR attached to this story was most important... BTW, Now we know why it took so long for Selig to work the Kenny Rogers suspension, he was to damn busy scheming & conniving the Palmeiro situation.
2) The all-star game & HOF ceremonies are more feel-good PR generating engines... Bud ain't gonna mess with those.

August: MLB breaks the news... the cows finally come home.

In all this, why did Palmeiro get preferential treatment?

TornLabrum
08-02-2005, 12:33 PM
I had heard the stuff about waiting until after the HOF, but this is the stuff that really gets me, and probably worried anyone who questioned the policy, the special treatment for superstars. Just the thought of them waiting after the HOF (not knowing when it originally was) gets me mad and suspicious about those that have already tested positive, and the protection of a guy like Shamme. I think ESPN was saying that Palmeiro was the only one who got to appeal before the suspension actually took place, helping the theory that did this happen earlier, and if I were Congress, I'd be really mad at this, that they get to play around (for a lack of a better word) with the results

Fortunately for MLB, Congress is in summer recess.

gobears1987
08-02-2005, 12:40 PM
Interesting interview with Canseco on CNBC. Something I never thought of, Canseco thinks the cause is a trace of steroids from years ago, he said it happened to him when he was clean for months, tested, and tested positive. They are talking about it on this show as this is a flaw, but I love it, because it helps justify the past/hurts those who have been hiding behind it. This makes me very excited that guys like Sosa and others can still get busted, though it may hurt a guy like Giambi.
That is actually the worst case for Raffy. That would mean he took them before the Congress testimony. That definitely means that a perjury charge isn't too far behind.

SluggersAway
08-02-2005, 12:50 PM
Here is a fascinating article on steroids with a very contrarian point of view, but one that can't easily be dismissed:

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/05/36/features-kotler.php

white sox bill
08-02-2005, 12:57 PM
Gee Raffy taking what was probably Testosterone and Viagra--I'm surpised his wife let him out of bed!! :)

voodoochile
08-02-2005, 01:02 PM
Here is a fascinating article on steroids with a very contrarian point of view, but one that can't easily be dismissed:

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/05/36/features-kotler.php


Whoopty freaking do...

I don't care if steroids have legitimate uses in society - as a 42 year old person, I actually hope they do discover he fountain of youth in a bottle. I still don't want players using them to make themselves stronger, faster, more likely to become superstars, period.

knocko94
08-02-2005, 01:26 PM
I don't think he got preferential treatment. There is always an appeal for these positive tests, but the appeal is only heard if one of MLB's doctors thinks there is a reasonable case. Apparently, one person thought there was a case, and the appeal went through for quite a long time. Once the arbitrator for MLB made his ruling, the suspension went through.

Heard this all discussed last night on Sporting News Radio.

Ol' No. 2
08-02-2005, 01:32 PM
I don't think he got preferential treatment. There is always an appeal for these positive tests, but the appeal is only heard if one of MLB's doctors thinks there is a reasonable case. Apparently, one person thought there was a case, and the appeal went through for quite a long time. Once the arbitrator for MLB made his ruling, the suspension went through.

Heard this all discussed last night on Sporting News Radio.Exactly. Read the CBA. Any player can appeal. At most, I think Bud decided to sit on it over the weekend so as to not overshadow the HOF ceremonies. That would be just the kind of thing he would do.

gobears1987
08-02-2005, 01:34 PM
Exactly. Read the CBA. Any player can appeal. At most, I think Bud decided to sit on it over the weekend so as to not overshadow the HOF ceremonies. That would be just the kind of thing he would do.
It would be funny if it broke over the weekend. Maybe someone tipped off Sandberg. That could've inspired the whole respect for the game theme.

Ol' No. 2
08-02-2005, 02:16 PM
There's an article on ESPN Insider about HOF voters had changed their minds on Palmeiro. I'm not an Insider. Anyone who is want to summarize?

ChiWhiteSox1337
08-03-2005, 01:24 AM
There's a new report out now saying that Palmeiro tested positive for the steroid Stanzolol, which is a very potent steroid that is NOT found in any sort of supplement. So it was still a mistake, huh? :rolleyes:"It's a mildly strong to strong steroid," Dr. Gary Wadler, a professor at New York University and an expert in sports doping, told the Times. "Potent is the word I would use." LINK (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2123113)

Rocklive99
08-03-2005, 01:59 AM
I emailed some Score guys my rant on how lame the punishments for steroids are and how lamer it is that the teams get breaks with punishments as 'days' and not 'games', and one of them replied something interesting (I'm sure they don't mind me posting it, also, note to radio hosts who browse these boards, it's very cool when the hosts personally respond to the emails in writing):

what's worse mike is the fact that palmeiro got special treatment...they did the investigation behind the scense before they suspended him. it's and absolute joke. but more will come out about raffy and his "habits" in the next few weeks.

The last sentence is the interesting part (sounds like there's something the media knows, but weird they wouldn't come out with it), at which I think the thing being hinted at is how this was known before the 3000th hit. Also, it may be about the post right above me which is also VERY interesting.

Watching on CNBC again, and there's this baseball guy who's researched testing and wrote a book about steroids, and he was talking about how if this test was done in April, there's no way it should've taken this long to report it (it takes long, but not now from April). I've been in school today, and Tuesday and Thursday I'm oblivious from all events of the outside world, is it common knowledge now that this was a test from April?

Also, as I watch, a guy from the Baltimore Sun saying the team learned about it on Friday, and of course, it was reported yesterday, Monday. EDIT: NM to the these last 2 paragraphs, found that information in the link in the post above mine.

Very interesting the way this is all unfolding

TornLabrum
08-03-2005, 08:56 AM
All I can say is that it is mighty lucky that Congress happens to be in recess right now.

Moses_Scurry
08-03-2005, 09:02 AM
On Mike & Mike this morning, they said that sources are saying the steroid was Winstrol.

white sox bill
08-03-2005, 09:41 AM
On Mike & Mike this morning, they said that sources are saying the steroid was Winstrol.

Winstrol and Stanzolol are same...whic explains why Raffy didn't have any water rention or gain a lot size wise. Winstrol is a fairly weak anabolic that promotes strength not so much size.

The Racehorse
08-03-2005, 09:47 AM
The Baltimore Sun reported on its Web site Tuesday night that Palmeiro tested positive in May and chased his 3,000th hit with the knowledge that he had failed a drug test. Palmeiro appealed the ruling in secret arbitration proceedings in June, a source told the Sun.

Is that anything like double secret probation?

The length of time this all took to supposedly play out stinks to high Heaven. Now we know why it took so long for MLB to handle the Kenny Rogers suspension... they were to damn busy spinning Palmeiro's positive drug test.

Bottom line, Palmeiro lied to Congress & got preferential treatment... not to mention that MLB sat on this whole pile of crap until after...
1) Palmeiro's 3000th hit
2) All-Star game
3) HOF ceremonies

All the scheming, conniving, machinations, make me sick... if it were a fringe player just called up from AAA, he'd been squashed without a blink of an eye.

Ol' No. 2
08-03-2005, 09:55 AM
Is that anything like double secret probation?

The length of time this all took to supposedly play out stinks to high Heaven. Now we know why it took so long for MLB to handle the Kenny Rogers suspension... they were to damn busy spinning Palmeiro's positive drug test.

Bottom line, Palmeiro lied to Congress & got preferential treatment... not to mention that MLB sat on this whole pile of crap until after...
1) Palmeiro's 3000th hit
2) All-Star game
3) HOF ceremonies

All the scheming, conniving, machinations, make me sick... if it were a fringe player just called up from AAA, he'd been squashed without a blink of an eye.Isn't anyone interested in actual facts? The appeal process is available to any player who receives a positive test. It's spelled out in detail in Attachment 18 of the CBA. Palmeiro received no special treatment in this regard. The arbitrator finalized his ruling on Monday, and Palmeiro was suspended the same day.

Flight #24
08-03-2005, 10:01 AM
Is that anything like double secret probation?

The length of time this all took to supposedly play out stinks to high Heaven. Now we know why it took so long for MLB to handle the Kenny Rogers suspension... they were to damn busy spinning Palmeiro's positive drug test.

Bottom line, Palmeiro lied to Congress & got preferential treatment... not to mention that MLB sat on this whole pile of crap until after...
1) Palmeiro's 3000th hit
2) All-Star game
3) HOF ceremonies

All the scheming, conniving, machinations, make me sick... if it were a fringe player just called up from AAA, he'd been squashed without a blink of an eye.

Actually, per reports this AM in the Trib, etc the arbitrator (good ol' Shyam Das, as usual) didn't officially sign the decision until Monday AM. The decision was made, but I'm guessing he has to issue a written opinion, similar to a judge, and that wasn't done until Monday. So blame Shyam, not Bud for the timing. Unless you want to hypothesize that Bud leaned on Shyam until Monday.

Also, they say that the extended timeline was created by the appeals process and the testing procedures - FWIW. The difference between Raffy & other cases is that he's the first to get the 3-man panel to agree that a hearing is appropriate. Supposedly Ryan Franklin won the same right.

If anything, I think the secrecy here was that there was no announcement/leak until after the appeal was fully complete, something that IIRC has not happened with others (I recall hearing "Rincon suspended for steroids, will appeal"). It actually makes more sense to me to not announce until everything's done since if the player wins the appeal or an error is found, it's hard to take back the stigma od having been announced as a juicer.

The Racehorse
08-03-2005, 10:28 AM
Isn't anyone interested in actual facts? The appeal process is available to any player who receives a positive test. It's spelled out in detail in Attachment 18 of the CBA. Palmeiro received no special treatment in this regard. The arbitrator finalized his ruling on Monday, and Palmeiro was suspended the same day.

The length of the timeline is suspicious... the arbitrator may have processed the case in a timely fashion, but only after Bud Selig sat on it after MLB & MLBPA got done turning every legal sleeve inside out.

Ol' No. 2
08-03-2005, 10:36 AM
The length of the timeline is suspicious... the arbitrator may have processed the case in a timely fashion, but only after Bud Selig sat on it after MLB & MLBPA got done turning every legal sleeve inside out.Not so. People familiar with it have said it could take several months. It has to first be heard by the HPAC, then by the arbitration panel. If you've figured out a way to make bureaucratic wheels turn fast, please share it with the rest of us.

The Racehorse
08-03-2005, 10:48 AM
Not so. People familiar with it have said it could take several months. It has to first be heard by the HPAC, then by the arbitration panel.
I'm not familiar... I'm just someone who likes to ask rhetorical questions. :D:

Btw, what is HPAC?

If you've figured out a way to make bureaucratic wheels turn fast, please share it with the rest of us.

Don't have former used car salesmen in positions of great authority.

Ol' No. 2
08-03-2005, 11:07 AM
I'm not familiar... I'm just someone who likes to ask rhetorical questions. :D:

Btw, what is HPAC?From the CBA:
The Health Policy Advisory Committee (“HPAC”) is responsible for
administering and overseeing the Program. HPAC shall be composed
of one medical representative (“Medical Representative”) from each of
the Parties (both of whom shall be licensed physicians expert in the
diagnosis and treatment of chemical use and abuse problems), and one
other representative each from the Office of the Commissioner and the
Association (both of whom shall be licensed attorneys).
Don't have former used car salesmen in positions of great authority.:kneeslap:

Rocklive99
08-03-2005, 01:06 PM
Isn't anyone interested in actual facts? The appeal process is available to any player who receives a positive test. It's spelled out in detail in Attachment 18 of the CBA. Palmeiro received no special treatment in this regard. The arbitrator finalized his ruling on Monday, and Palmeiro was suspended the same day.

You wouldn't call waiting for after he got the milestone to announce the test results (when you had them in June) and giving him all that time to come up with an excuse, special treatment?

Flight #24
08-03-2005, 01:16 PM
You wouldn't call waiting for after he got the milestone to announce the test results (when you had them in June) and giving him all that time to come up with an excuse, special treatment?

except that facts dont support that argument. as soon as his appeal was up and the arbitrtors decision final, it was announced.

Ol' No. 2
08-03-2005, 01:18 PM
You wouldn't call waiting for after he got the milestone to announce the test results (when you had them in June) and giving him all that time to come up with an excuse, special treatment?No. All provisions of the CBA.

Unregistered
08-03-2005, 01:23 PM
According to MSNBC, the substance Palmiero was found using is the same one Ben Johnson was caught using when he was stripped of his gold medal in the Olympics.

This isn't a case of Palmiero "accidentally" taking some over-the-counter medicine that has traces of something in it - the dude's a juicer.

A person in Major League Baseball with direct knowledge of baseball's drug-testing program told the New York Times that the Orioles first baseman tested positive for stanozolol, which is better known by its brand name, Winstrol. Winstrol was also the banned substance that sprinter Ben Johnson of Canada tested positive for at the 1988 Olympics and was later stripped of his 100-meter gold medal. Palmeiro received a 10-game suspension for his positive banned substance test.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/3857832

Ol' No. 2
08-03-2005, 01:27 PM
According to MSNBC, the substance Palmiero was found using is the same one Ben Johnson was caught using when he was stripped of his gold medal in the Olympics.

This isn't a case of Palmiero "accidentally" taking some over-the-counter medicine that has traces of something in it - the dude's a juicer.



http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/3857832But someone COULD have put it in his Wheaties without him knowing about it.

Flight #24
08-03-2005, 01:35 PM
According to MSNBC, the substance Palmiero was found using is the same one Ben Johnson was caught using when he was stripped of his gold medal in the Olympics.

This isn't a case of Palmiero "accidentally" taking some over-the-counter medicine that has traces of something in it - the dude's a juicer.



http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/3857832

FWIW, someone just called into the Score to say that the most common use of Winstrol is to help clear the water bloating side effects of things like Decadurabol (sp?). If true, that would indicate that this isn't exactly the first 'roid Raffy's been using.

Flight #24
08-03-2005, 01:36 PM
All I can say is that it is mighty lucky that Congress happens to be in recess right now.

Here's a question: He had in his system, a controlled substance that I'm going to assume he did not have a prescription for. Wouldn't that qualify as evidence that he violated Federal law covering posession of said controlled substance?

Ol' No. 2
08-03-2005, 01:38 PM
Here's a question: He had in his system, a controlled substance that I'm going to assume he did not have a prescription for. Wouldn't that qualify as evidence that he violated Federal law covering posession of said controlled substance?Technically, sure. But no one ever gets prosecuted for this kind of thing. They generally concentrate on distributors.

Rocklive99
08-03-2005, 03:26 PM
ESPNEWS is saying Palmeiro is going to give the test details to Congress. How could this benefit him or than getting immunity?

TomParrish79
08-03-2005, 03:40 PM
I am just hearing this now on ESPN....the substance he had in his system is the same that Cansceco said that he injected him with in Texas....

One Liar down....

Flight #24
08-03-2005, 03:42 PM
ESPNEWS is saying Palmeiro is going to give the test details to Congress. How could this benefit him or than getting immunity?

Testimony in March + Positive test in May = No proof that he perjured himself.

rowand33
08-03-2005, 04:00 PM
a little information on Winstrol from a bodybuilding forum (www.bodybuilding.com (http://www.bodybuilding.com)) I frequent:

here's a complete profile on it:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catwinstrol.htm

a few highlights:
Next to Deca and D-bol the third most abused substance among athletes is stanozolol, as documented by the many positive drug tests.

Winny comes in two forms, an injectable form and an oral form. Both are equally popular and both are to be used daily

The injectable version often gives more results

Strong gains are never really made while using stanozolol (it's a weak androgen since it has no 3-keto group needed for androgen binding), but decent and fairly easy to maintain gains are possible. Its limited time of use however makes most experienced users opt for other steroids in that regard.

Winny, in bodybuilding circles at least, is used mostly during cutting cycles to maintain mass.

As many, including Ben Johnson, did not take into account it can be detected for quite some time after last use so its not advisable for drug tested athletes. Many have assumed otherwise due to the short half-life, but apparently some inactive metabolites are easily esterified, so they can be found up to 5 months after the last injection.

in conclusion...

Raffy is a moron.

The Racehorse
08-03-2005, 04:01 PM
Here’s the list of players popped so far;
Apr 4 - Alex Sanchez, OF
Apr 11 – Jorge Piedra, OF
Apr 20 – Agustin Montero, P
April 26 – Jamal Strong, OF
May 2 – Juan Rincon, P
July 8 - Rafael Betancourt, P
Aug 1 – Rafael Palmeiro, 1B
Aug 2 - Ryan Franklin, P

According to reports, Palmeiro & Franklin had their tests completed back in May [let’s say 1 May for the sake of brevity]. Between 1 May & 2 August is 92 days of appellate & arbiter process time. A reasonable person would then have to think that Alex Sanchez & Jorge Piedra also had approximately 92 days of appellate & arbiter process time, putting their known positive test results around New Years Day… which is all fine & well except Sanchez & Piedra were the first ones popped as a result of the newly implemented drug policy that started last March!

So if I have this straight, the cases involving Sanchez & Piedra were processed in a few weeks and Palmeiro’s [and Franklin’s] were processed in a few months. As for the facts in this whole mess, they’re nothing more than changes to a process in midstream by the process owners [MLB & MLBPA]…

Players named first, then their appellate process…
to, the appellate process first before players being named
Smells like preferential treatment for Palmeiro to me... with Franklin being a lucky benefactor of Palmeiro’s stature.

I agree that an appellate & arbiter process prior to being publicly named makes common sense… but as far as I know, it wasn’t done until it involved Palmeiro.

Ol' No. 2
08-03-2005, 04:48 PM
Here’s the list of players popped so far;
Apr 4 - Alex Sanchez, OF
Apr 11 – Jorge Piedra, OF
Apr 20 – Agustin Montero, P
April 26 – Jamal Strong, OF
May 2 – Juan Rincon, P
July 8 - Rafael Betancourt, P
Aug 1 – Rafael Palmeiro, 1B
Aug 2 - Ryan Franklin, P

According to reports, Palmeiro & Franklin had their tests completed back in May [let’s say 1 May for the sake of brevity]. Between 1 May & 2 August is 92 days of appellate & arbiter process time. A reasonable person would then have to think that Alex Sanchez & Jorge Piedra also had approximately 92 days of appellate & arbiter process time, putting their known positive test results around New Years Day… which is all fine & well except Sanchez & Piedra were the first ones popped as a result of the newly implemented drug policy that started last March!

So if I have this straight, the cases involving Sanchez & Piedra were processed in a few weeks and Palmeiro’s [and Franklin’s] were processed in a few months. As for the facts in this whole mess, they’re nothing more than changes to a process in midstream by the process owners [MLB & MLBPA]…


Players named first, then their appellate process…
to, the appellate process first before players being named
Smells like preferential treatment for Palmeiro to me... with Franklin being a lucky benefactor of Palmeiro’s stature.

I agree that an appellate & arbiter process prior to being publicly named makes common sense… but as far as I know, it wasn’t done until it involved Palmeiro.You're forgetting one little detail, which, unfortunately, blows your whole theory out of the water. Sanchez and Piedra didn't appeal.

The Racehorse
08-03-2005, 05:03 PM
You're forgetting one little detail, which, unfortunately, blows your whole theory out of the water. Sanchez and Piedra didn't appeal.

ON2, I'm not discounting what your saying... but I refuse to accept anything from MLB & MLBPA at face value...

... I wonder why they didn't appeal? ... btw, I did a couple of searches earlier today to check out the timeline on Sanchez & Piedra, but didn't find anything.

Mercy!
08-03-2005, 05:26 PM
People keep linking to stories which reference the New York Times article. For those who are interested in reading the original, here’s a link: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/03/sports/baseball/03steroids.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/03/sports/baseball/03steroids.html)

Not part of that article, but remember how Palmiero testified before Congress that he wouldn’t be opposed to having baseball follow the same drug testing rules as the Olympics? If that were the case right now, he’d be starting a two year suspension from baseball.

The Racehorse
08-03-2005, 05:42 PM
You're forgetting one little detail, which, unfortunately, blows your whole theory out of the water. Sanchez and Piedra didn't appeal.

According to Sanchez back on 4 April (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2029037), he said that he would appeal.

"I'm going to fight it, because I've never taken steroids or anything like that," said Sanchez, who was released by Detroit in mid-March and signed by the Devil Rays.

The union can appeal the suspension to arbitrator Shyam Das, according to union general counsel Michael Weiner. But unlike other suspensions, it will not be held up pending an appeal. A decision had not yet been made, Weiner said Sunday night.


Also, the ax fell on Sanchez before he could appeal, so why did the process change later on?

SoxEd
08-03-2005, 06:54 PM
According to Sanchez back on 4 April (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2029037), he said that he would appeal.



Also, the ax fell on Sanchez before he could appeal, so why did the process change later on?

I'd guess that MLB's lawyers advised them that by going ahead with bans pending an appeal they were leaving themselves open to major lawsuits for e.g. defamation. I.e. do not ban until totally sure of the player's guilt.

Also, less charitably, I'd guess that they absolutely didn't want anyone to hear about famous players juicing, and decided to keep schtum until any appeals failed i.e. until they really couldn't ignore it any longer.

Rocklive99
08-03-2005, 07:35 PM
With this information on it being this powerful steroid, it makes me wonder how he could be this dumb. I'm no medical expert, but the only thing I can think of is he was taking something else that was undetectable, and then used this one to take away negative side effects, that's still stupid though.

EDIT: :tomatoaward :tomatoaward

SoxEd
08-03-2005, 07:59 PM
I don't know what brought this to my mind, but:

You know the scene in Fight Club where Meatloaf's character ("His name is Robert Paulson...") is talking about how he got testicular cancer thru juicing, and how his body over-reacted against the juice by over-producing oestrogen, so he got huge tits..?

Well, say you've been juiced for years, and your body reacts to this and overproduces oestrogen, could that result in erectile dysfunction, and lead to your having to take Viagra?

Just a thought, I'm not suggesting that anyone famous may either be using Viagra, or needing to use it because of a history of taking illegal performance-enhancing drugs.

Jurr
08-03-2005, 08:40 PM
I don't know what brought this to my mind, but:

You know the scene in Fight Club where Meatloaf's character ("His name is Robert Paulson...") is talking about how he got testicular cancer thru juicing, and how his body over-reacted against the juice by over-producing oestrogen, so he got huge tits..?

Well, say you've been juiced for years, and your body reacts to this and overproduces oestrogen, could that result in erectile dysfunction, and lead to your having to take Viagra?

Just a thought, I'm not suggesting that anyone famous may either be using Viagra, or needing to use it because of a history of taking illegal performance-enhancing drugs.
Usually, the guys that have lots of money and take the androgenic steroids take anti-esterifying agents with the steroids to prevent the estrogen effects of the drugs.
If he indeed took Winstrol (or stanazolol), you're not dealing with a heavy dose of androgen, which comes with the testosterone type drugs. That's why guys like the drugs Deca and Winstrol, because they don't esterify as much.

The other thing to note about Palmeiro's steroid use of late is the fact that he was taking win, which is water soluble. He was hoping he could get away with taking a drug that you piss away. Fat soluble drugs stay in the blood a lot longer, and wouldn't be touched by these guys. Raffy was a dumb ass.

Did anybody hear will clark today? He was saying that he is not surprised at all that Palmeiro was doing the juice, and he said that if he got to talk to raffy, he would only say, "hahahahha...you got caught, pahtna!"
Funny stuff.

Jurr
08-03-2005, 08:49 PM
One thing I do find funny is the way ballplayers are talking about 'roids now. I know a great deal of University of Memphis and Memphis Redbirds (Cards AAA) players, and have for a few years. These guys used to openly talk about what they and their teammates were using, as long as the conversation was around friends.

You aren't hearing any of that business anymore. Steroids are absolutlely rampant in the game, as they help ballplayers in so many ways. Everybody's juicing to get that edge that will ultimately end up in a big contract or an invite to "the show". I think if the guys are still taking steroids, they're absolutely mum on the subject now.

The Racehorse
08-03-2005, 08:49 PM
Did anybody hear will clark today? He was saying that he is not surprised at all that Palmeiro was doing the juice, and he said that if he got to talk to raffy, he would only say, "hahahahha...you got caught, pahtna!"
Funny stuff.

I heard it... yeah, it was funny because of the way he put extra twang into that phrase. :cool:

The Racehorse
08-04-2005, 01:28 PM
Top Ten Rafael Palmeiro Excuses

10. "Pete Rose bet me I wouldn't do it"
9. There wasn't a Starbucks around and I needed a quick pick-me up"
8. "I enjoy the fresh minty flavor"
7. "Uhh, I lost it in the sun?"
6. "Somebody must've slipped something into my Viagra"
5. "Steroids illegal?! Since when?"
4. "Heard steroids give your mustache a glossy coat"
3. "Memory loss from steroid use made me forget I was on steroids"
2. " 'Roids rule, dude!"
1. "How am I supposed to keep track of every single thing I stick up my ass?"

:rolling:

Ol' No. 2
08-04-2005, 07:42 PM
ON2, I'm not discounting what your saying... but I refuse to accept anything from MLB & MLBPA at face value...

... I wonder why they didn't appeal? ... btw, I did a couple of searches earlier today to check out the timeline on Sanchez & Piedra, but didn't find anything.In other words, you've got your mind made up and don't want to be confused by facts?

The Racehorse
08-04-2005, 08:33 PM
In other words, you've got your mind made up and don't want to be confused by facts?

The facts are that the Palmeiro & Franklin cases took almost 3 months to process while the cases of Sanchez & Piedra took only a few weeks…

… so in other words, you believe MLB & the MLBPA when they imply nothing different was done with Palmeiro’s case. :kukoo:

You go ahead and believe that, because I sure won’t.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-04-2005, 09:02 PM
The facts are that the Palmeiro & Franklin cases took almost 3 months to process while the cases of Sanchez & Piedra took only a few weeks…

… so in other words, you believe MLB & the MLBPA when they imply nothing different was done with Palmeiro’s case.

You go ahead and believe that, because I sure won’t.

Do we know for fact Sanchez and Piedra went through the full appeals process?
:?:

I'll grant you MLB probably waited until after the HOF induction ceremonies to make any announcement regarding Palmiero. However even your conspiracy theory makes MLB look like boobs for not suspending Palmiero before he collected his landmark hit earlier this season.
:?:

Rocklive99
08-04-2005, 11:24 PM
More background information that Raffy isn't the sharpest tool in the shed http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050804/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bba_drugs_palmeiro



I'll grant you MLB probably waited until after the HOF induction ceremonies to make any announcement regarding Palmiero. However even your conspiracy theory makes MLB look like boobs for not suspending Palmiero before he collected his landmark hit earlier this season.
:?:

Well, the NY Times report said that he personally knew about it in June, why wouldn't they just publish right when they find the results, instead of waiting until August 1st? The Alex Sanchez one came out early (don't remember the exact date) so I don't think there using an exclusive 'wait for the appeal' process for every player, and he was cited in an interview saying he would appeal after the results were public. It just smells a little fishy to wait until August 1st, a date after the AllStar game, HOF, and his milestone. I don't think they wanted it to get out that they knew about this before these events

Ol' No. 2
08-05-2005, 12:22 AM
More background information that Raffy isn't the sharpest tool in the shed http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050804/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bba_drugs_palmeiro



Well, the NY Times report said that he personally knew about it in June, why wouldn't they just publish right when they find the results, instead of waiting until August 1st? The Alex Sanchez one came out early (don't remember the exact date) so I don't think there using an exclusive 'wait for the appeal' process for every player, and he was cited in an interview saying he would appeal after the results were public. It just smells a little fishy to wait until August 1st, a date after the AllStar game, HOF, and his milestone. I don't think they wanted it to get out that they knew about this before these eventsAnd you have not the slightest evidence that anything was done different. Nothing. Nada. Just continued suggestions of something fishy. Did you ever hear of a grand jury? They're secret, too. Can you guess the reason?

Call me when you have something.

The Racehorse
08-05-2005, 10:58 AM
And you have not the slightest evidence that anything was done different. Nothing. Nada. Just continued suggestions of something fishy. Did you ever hear of a grand jury? They're secret, too. Can you guess the reason?

Call me when you have something.

Why does anyone have to have 'something’? None of us have subpoena authority that would force Selig & Fehr to testify. The timeline for Palmeiro simply doesn’t look good when compared to the others, which begs the [obvious] question of why did Palmeiro’s case take longer than the rest.

Ol' No. 2
08-05-2005, 11:46 AM
Why does anyone have to have 'something’? None of us have subpoena authority that would force Selig & Fehr to testify. The timeline for Palmeiro simply doesn’t look good when compared to the others, which begs the [obvious] question of why did Palmeiro’s case take longer than the rest.And the question has been answered ad nauseum. You just don't like the answer.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-05-2005, 12:09 PM
More background information that Raffy isn't the sharpest tool in the shed http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050804/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bba_drugs_palmeiro



Well, the NY Times report said that he personally knew about it in June, why wouldn't they just publish right when they find the results, instead of waiting until August 1st? The Alex Sanchez one came out early (don't remember the exact date) so I don't think there using an exclusive 'wait for the appeal' process for every player, and he was cited in an interview saying he would appeal after the results were public. It just smells a little fishy to wait until August 1st, a date after the AllStar game, HOF, and his milestone. I don't think they wanted it to get out that they knew about this before these events

That's called due process, and you can bet the MLBPA (and the MLBPA's lawyers) set it up this way to PROTECT the interests of Rafael Palmiero, not punish him.
:kukoo:

Palmiero gambled MLB would never publish the results of his positive steroids test. He lost his bet, and made himself look even a bigger fool for all his on-field heroics achieved in the interim period, especially the 3000-hit plateau. Sucks to be him.

Furthermore it goes to show just how much denial these steroid users like Palmiero currently are in. Bigger than the game? My ass...
:cool:

The Racehorse
08-05-2005, 12:23 PM
And the question has been answered ad nauseum. You just don't like the answer.

If the answer is MLB & MLBPA followed the provisions per Attachment 18 of the CBA, and it simply took longer to exhaust the appellate & arbiter process as to why Palmeiro’s case took longer than the cases prior…. then you are right, I don’t like [or believe] the answer.

The Racehorse
08-05-2005, 01:06 PM
That's called due process, and you can bet the MLBPA (and the MLBPA's lawyers) set it up this way to PROTECT the interests of Rafael Palmiero, not punish him.

PHG, am I wearing out my welcome when I ask [rhetorically] why Sanchez’s 10 day suspension was not held up pending an appeal?

PaleHoseGeorge
08-05-2005, 01:27 PM
PHG, am I wearing out my welcome when I ask [rhetorically] why Sanchez’s 10 day suspension was not held up pending an appeal?

I don't know? Why aren't you asking this question to Sanchez and the MLBPA lawyers who we can reasonably assume are looking out for his interest?

There is a process in place. If one case follows one course and another case follows a different course, there is still a process to be followed OR WE WOULD HEAR ABOUT IT FROM THE AGGRIEVED PARTY. Don'tcha think?
:?:

Ol' No. 2
08-05-2005, 01:30 PM
PHG, am I wearing out my welcome when I ask [rhetorically] why Sanchez’s 10 day suspension was not held up pending an appeal?I've seen nothing to indicate that he did appeal. What, exactly, would be the point of hearing an appeal AFTER the suspension?:?: And in the event that MLB erred in the previous cases and announced the suspension before the appeal process had been completed, that's no reason to repeat the error.

The Racehorse
08-05-2005, 01:37 PM
I don't know? Why aren't you asking this question to Sanchez and the MLBPA lawyers who we can reasonably assume are looking out for his interest?

I would if I could :cool:

The Racehorse
08-05-2005, 01:52 PM
in the event that MLB erred in the previous cases and announced the suspension before the appeal process had been completed, that's no reason to repeat the error.

Right, but I have a hard time believing anything from MLB & MLBPA, given their history of providing evasive answers. That is my perception and I think it's a fair statement... which is why in Palmeiro's case, I can't help but think it wasn't handled expeditiously.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-05-2005, 02:00 PM
I've seen nothing to indicate that he did appeal. What, exactly, would be the point of hearing an appeal AFTER the suspension? And in the event that MLB erred in the previous cases and announced the suspension before the appeal process had been completed, that's no reason to repeat the error.

I'll go one step further. Not only would MLB have erred in handing out the suspension without the consent of Sanchez and the MLBPA, but the MLBPA's lawyers would be squealing like stuck pigs right now about how their membership is being unfairly persecuted by MLB.
:o:

Let's not forget the new drug screening policy was only enacted AFTER congress hauled Selig and Fehr up to Capitol Hill to explain how they were dealing with steroids... and it was the UNION who was shielding the juicers by refusing to permit testing with any teeth behind it.

It's not MLB's motives that stink in the Palmiero and Sanchez cases; it's MLBPA's!

Rikans
08-05-2005, 02:08 PM
In this article (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050726&content_id=1145565&vkey=news_min&fext=.jsp&c_id=min)

It says Rincon was having his appeal heard. Obviously he had already served his 10 game suspension. Why is Rincon different than Palmiero?

PaleHoseGeorge
08-05-2005, 02:12 PM
In this article (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050726&content_id=1145565&vkey=news_min&fext=.jsp&c_id=min)

It says Rincon was having his appeal heard. Obviously he had already served his 10 game suspension. Why is Rincon different than Palmiero?

Good question. Here's another one, this time for you and the official Twins mouthpiece to answer. Why would Rincon even bother with an appeal if he already agreed to serve a suspension first -- other than for the obvious P.R. and face-saving aspect to it?

Go ahead, answer that one.

Ol' No. 2
08-05-2005, 02:22 PM
Good question. Here's another one, this time for you and the official Twins mouthpiece to answer. Why would Rincon even bother with an appeal if he already agreed to serve a suspension first -- other than for the obvious P.R. and face-saving aspect to it?

Go ahead, answer that one.From the same article (emphasis added): He was seeking to clear his name and recoup $24,044 in salary.It seems to me patently obvious that if there's going to be an appeal, that the suspension should not start and there should be no public disclosure until it's finished. They handled the Palmeiro case corrrectly. If they handled the previous cases differently, it was those that were incorrect, and it's not a reason to continue to do it incorrectly. For those who are determined to see something sinister, there is nothing anyone can say to dissuade them.

Rikans
08-05-2005, 02:35 PM
Good question. Here's another one, this time for you and the official Twins mouthpiece to answer. Why would Rincon even bother with an appeal if he already agreed to serve a suspension first -- other than for the obvious P.R. and face-saving aspect to it?

Go ahead, answer that one.

As #2 said, to recoup some of the money. Obviously though the first and more important part is to save face/P.R. as money can be made up, reputation can not. Curiously did he agree to serve the suspension first or was he made to? Id assume he would have wanted the appeal first to delay the suspension back when the Twins were at least in sight of the Sox.

PaulDrake
08-05-2005, 02:37 PM
It appears to me that the Palmeiro case was handled differently than at least some of the earlier suspensions. If that makes me stupid then that's twice in a week.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-05-2005, 02:45 PM
....Curiously did he agree to serve the suspension first or was he made to? Id assume he would have wanted the appeal first to delay the suspension back when the Twins were at least in sight of the Sox.

If Rincon was *forced* into a suspension without an appeal, both he and the MLBPA would be telling us RIGHT NOW about the injustice of how his case was handled compared to Palmiero's. Can we at least agree both Rincon and the MLBPA are looking out for his interest?
:?:

The fact we're NOT hearing any such complaints from either Rincon or the MLBPA -- or even the Twins for that matter -- speaks volumes about his true motives for his appeal after his suspension.

It may be for money, but it's mostly to save face... for both himself and the Minnesota Twins organization that employs him.

Paulwny
08-05-2005, 02:51 PM
From the Wilkes Barre Times-Leader/ NY Daily News:

Baseball was flush with rumors Tuesday as players, executives and agents wondered why it took more than two months to go from failed test to announcement, especially when the first seven players who tested positive were outed with relative haste. Sources said Palmeiro and Seattle Mariners pitcher Ryan Franklin were the first two to appeal their cases and get approval to pursue their cases from a member of baseball's Health Policy Advisory Committee, which oversees the testing program.

Rikans
08-05-2005, 02:53 PM
If Rincon was *forced* into a suspension without an appeal, both he and the MLBPA would be telling us RIGHT NOW about the injustice of how his case was handled compared to Palmiero's. Can we at least agree both Rincon and the MLBPA are looking out for his interest?
:?:

The fact we're NOT hearing any such complaints from either Rincon or the MLBPA -- or even the Twins for that matter -- speaks volumes about his true motives for his appeal after his suspension.

It may be for money, but it's mostly to save face... for both himself and the Minnesota Twins organization that employs him.

Yeah i can agree with that. It seems like something has changed to me in how they handle it. On the other hand i agree that MLBPA and the other players who were suspended would be screaming. Can they change how they handle these things mid season?

Ol' No. 2
08-05-2005, 03:30 PM
From the Wilkes Barre Times-Leader/ NY Daily News:

Baseball was flush with rumors Tuesday as players, executives and agents wondered why it took more than two months to go from failed test to announcement, especially when the first seven players who tested positive were outed with relative haste. Sources said Palmeiro and Seattle Mariners pitcher Ryan Franklin were the first two to appeal their cases and get approval to pursue their cases from a member of baseball's Health Policy Advisory Committee, which oversees the testing program.And therein lies the difference. The first appeal is to the HPAC. If they turn you down, you're done.

IMO, I don't think you can argue that the proper way to handle it is not to hand down suspensions or make public announcements until after all the appeals are heard. That is what was done with Franklin and Palmeiro. I'm not convinced that anything was done differently with earlier cases, but even if it was, unless you want to argue that once they do it the wrong way they should continue doing it that way forever, then I can't understand how one can argue that Palmeiro or Franklin received any kind of favorable treatment. Their cases were handled correctly.