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View Full Version : Wagner rumor from BP


Podzilla_40
07-29-2005, 01:44 PM
The White Sox are still after Billy Wagner (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/wagnebi02.shtml), sweetening their offer to include embattled third baseman Joe Crede (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/credejo01.shtml), in addition to Brandon McCarthy (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/mccarbr01.shtml) and Damaso Marte (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/marteda01.shtml). Is Wagner the equivalent (or better) of A.J. Burnett (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/burneaj01.shtml)? VORP doesn't think so. Wagner comes in at 17.6 while Burnett is five runs better at 22.6. Still, it's not a bad deal, assuming Ed Wade and Kenny Williams are using the trade analyzer in Team Tracker (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/fantasy/tt/index.php?help).

Please don't do it.

JermaineDye05
07-29-2005, 01:47 PM
what happens with 3rd base then, that doesnt make sense

Ol' No. 2
07-29-2005, 01:47 PM
Please don't do it.Too much. Lowell is a butcher at 3B. Even if he winds up hitting 30 pts higher than Crede, the extra errors will more than offset that.

Podzilla_40
07-29-2005, 01:49 PM
Too much. Lowell is a butcher at 3B. Even if he winds up hitting 30 pts higher than Crede, the extra errors will more than offset that.

I think I heard somewhere Lowell has a higher fielding percentage than Joe.

The Dude
07-29-2005, 01:49 PM
Too much. Lowell is a butcher at 3B. Even if he winds up hitting 30 pts higher than Crede, the extra errors will more than offset that.

We've all seen the last couple weeks how a few errors can really come back to bite us in the ass. No thanks.

JermaineDye05
07-29-2005, 01:50 PM
Too much. Lowell is a butcher at 3B. Even if he winds up hitting 30 pts higher than Crede, the extra errors will more than offset that.

is Lowells name even mentioned, I dont see how we'd get lowell if we just got rid of the deal we had proposed to get him and AJB, this deal just doesnt make sense

DaleJRFan
07-29-2005, 01:51 PM
I think I heard somewhere Lowell has a higher fielding percentage than Joe.

Most-likely because Lowell can't get to half of the balls Crede gets to. He's money. I hate the sound of that trade, Shoota be damned (:redneck)... but Crede is becoming one of my Sox favorites..

Ol' No. 2
07-29-2005, 01:51 PM
I think I heard somewhere Lowell has a higher fielding percentage than Joe.They're exactly the same for 2005. Which just goes to show how little fielding percentage means.

Podzilla_40
07-29-2005, 01:53 PM
I just don't understand why he'd put Joe on the table, you think Fields would be a sweetner, or maybe Chris Young. But not your starting 3rd baseman.

JermaineDye05
07-29-2005, 01:54 PM
I just don't understand why he'd put Joe on the table, you think Fields would be a sweetner, or maybe Chris Young. But not your starting 3rd baseman.

Chris Young is a center fielder, or is he like Miguel Cabrera and can play both?

itsnotrequired
07-29-2005, 01:54 PM
This trade is obnoxious. Pass.

Ol' No. 2
07-29-2005, 01:55 PM
This trade is obnoxious. Pass.Consider the source. Has BP ever been right on one of these?

DaleJRFan
07-29-2005, 01:57 PM
Chris Young is a center fielder, or is he like Miguel Cabrera and can play both?

Chris Young is also out with a pulled ribcage muscle... heard its serious, too.

Tekijawa
07-29-2005, 01:58 PM
Unless Crede's Back is broken, this trade really doesn't make sence for us.

JermaineDye05
07-29-2005, 02:00 PM
Chris Young is also out with a pulled ribcage muscle... heard its serious, too.

damn thats not good, we're talkin bout the same chris young that was in the futures game right?

White Sox Randy
07-29-2005, 02:00 PM
if there is then, KW must be expecting to take Lowell off Florida's hands for next to nothing but salary.

That would be the only way that it would make sense to me. And, I think the trade would be a bad one. That sounds like overpaying even if they can re-sign Wagner for a reasonable - which is doubtful.

Foulke You
07-29-2005, 02:10 PM
Perhaps this was a deal that was in place when KW thought he was going to land Randa or Graffanino in trade. In any case, I doubt KW pulls the trigger now and I doubt even more that Philly trades Wagner considering they are right in the thick of the Wild Card race.

infohawk
07-29-2005, 02:15 PM
what happens with 3rd base then, that doesnt make sense

ASSUMING there is something to this rumor, I would think that KW has a trade lined up for Aubrey Huff to replace Crede. I don't see KW trading Crede without another deal for a third baseman.

Jjav829
07-29-2005, 02:29 PM
Too much. Lowell is a butcher at 3B. Even if he winds up hitting 30 pts higher than Crede, the extra errors will more than offset that.

Lowell isn't even close to being a butcher at 3B. He's one of the more solid defensive 3B in the game. He might not be on the Rolen/Chavez level, but he's right behind them in terms of solid defensive 3B.

That said, what does Lowell have to do with this? And who the hell would our 3B be? If we trade Bmac, Marte and Crede for Wagner, the A.J. Burnett thing isn't happening, meaning no Lowell. So then what? Ozuna sure as hell isn't playing 3B on an everyday basis. We'd need Bmac in order to acquire Huff, and Huff is close to being a butcher at 3B. Randa is off the market. I don't get it. Either BP is wrong or Kenny has something else up his sleeve.

Madvora
07-29-2005, 02:37 PM
This seems like madness by itself, so there has to be other deals involved.

deck27
07-29-2005, 02:51 PM
It's clear what the Sox need...insurance for Crede and Hermanson. If (big if) they can upgrade the team while providing this coverage, go for it.

It's not like we'd see Harris, Osuna, Gload or Perez in the playoffs anyway, except for pinch running.

Madvora
07-29-2005, 02:58 PM
ASSUMING there is something to this rumor, I would think that KW has a trade lined up for Aubrey Huff to replace Crede. I don't see KW trading Crede without another deal for a third baseman.
Huff has played 23 games at 1B, 62 in the OF and only 1 game at 3B this year.
He played 86 games at 3B last year.

With the Sox "pitching and defense" type team. I don't see him moving to 3B at all. Maybe the deal is for a SS? Uribe would move to 3B. This is the only thing that would make sense out of Crede's name being mentioned.

Ol' No. 2
07-29-2005, 03:04 PM
Lowell isn't even close to being a butcher at 3B. He's one of the more solid defensive 3B in the game. He might not be on the Rolen/Chavez level, but he's right behind them in terms of solid defensive 3B.

That said, what does Lowell have to do with this? And who the hell would our 3B be? If we trade Bmac, Marte and Crede for Wagner, the A.J. Burnett thing isn't happening, meaning no Lowell. So then what? Ozuna sure as hell isn't playing 3B on an everyday basis. We'd need Bmac in order to acquire Huff, and Huff is close to being a butcher at 3B. Randa is off the market. I don't get it. Either BP is wrong or Kenny has something else up his sleeve.I first read this as a variation on the 3-way deal with the Fish, but in re-reading it, it does sound more like a straight deal with the Phils.

Maybe butcher is a little strong, but I'd certainly consider Lowell to be below average defensively. He's slow and has terrible range. Imagine Konerko playing 3B.

You're right, though, that this implies that KW has another deal for Huff, who is a butcher at 3B. But I don't know how they'd get him with McCarthy gone.

BP has never been what I consider reliable in the rumor department. The whole thing sounds like BS.

Jjav829
07-29-2005, 03:12 PM
Maybe butcher is a little strong, but I'd certainly consider Lowell to be below average defensively. He's slow and has terrible range. Imagine Konerko playing 3B.


That's off. He's not below average defensively. Comparing him to Konerko at 3B is very inaccurate. Don't confuse Lowell's lack of foot speed on the bases for a lack of range or ability to make defensive plays. Crede is very slow himself. That doesn't mean Crede doesn't have good instincts and good reaction time to make all the plays. In fact, Lowell and Crede are a very good comparison defensively. Crede has improved while Lowell has probably leveled off, but Lowell is still easily a top 10 defensive 3B.

nodiggity59
07-29-2005, 03:14 PM
Just curious as to what evidence everyone is basing their expert opinion on RE: Lowell's defensive prowess........:?:

TaylorStSox
07-29-2005, 03:15 PM
That's off. He's not below average defensively. Comparing him to Konerko at 3B is very inaccurate. Don't confuse Lowell's lack of foot speed on the bases for a lack of range or ability to make defensive plays. Crede is very slow himself. That doesn't mean Crede doesn't have good instincts and good reaction time to make all the plays. In fact, Lowell and Crede are a very good comparison defensively. Crede has improved while Lowell has probably leveled off, but Lowell is still easily a top 10 defensive 3B.

How much of Lowell have you seen since 03? Seriously, he has no range and is below average defensively.

Jjav829
07-29-2005, 03:18 PM
How much of Lowell have you seen since 03? Seriously, he has no range and is below average defensively.

About as much as a non-Marlins fan can see, I suppose. He isn't below average defensively. Like I said, he's not Rolen or Chavez, but calling him a butcher or comparing him to Paul Konerko at 3B is off. You want to say he is a downgrade from Crede, that's fine. Like I said, Crede is on his way up while Lowell is only going down from here. Lowell is not a butcher though.

TaylorStSox
07-29-2005, 03:20 PM
About as much as a non-Marlins fan can see, I suppose. He isn't below average defensively. Like I said, he's not Rolen or Chavez, but calling him a butcher or comparing him to Paul Konerko at 3B is off. You want to say he is a downgrade from Crede, that's fine. Like I said, Crede is on his way up while Lowell is only going down from here. Lowell is not a butcher though.

Actually, I pretty much agree with this. I overstated being below average. However, I think we'd lose alot defensively with Lowell. Also, Crede's quietly becoming one of our most productive hitters.

Mr. White Sox
07-29-2005, 04:53 PM
Wow! Don't do this trade. Just don't do it. I'm fine with getting Huff/Griffey/Lugo/Baez/Cintron/etc...but there's no need to trade away what's working. And what's working is Joe Crede, who's a gold-glove caliber 3B always knocked for his bat, and he's hitting over .250 and hitting .325 since the all-star break. No thank you...

GAsoxfan
07-29-2005, 04:59 PM
Two big leaguers and your top pitching prospect for a three month rental of a closer?! No thanks.

shoota
07-29-2005, 06:03 PM
I think any team that would consider taking Crede off of our hands would be a trade we would have to consider.

Chisox003
07-29-2005, 06:04 PM
I think any team that would consider taking Crede off of our hands would be a trade we would have to consider.

Shutup

It gets old

shoota
07-29-2005, 06:08 PM
Shutup

It gets old

Dude, you're invited to my party on my condo's rooftop the day Crede gets traded/released/DFAed.

TaylorStSox
07-29-2005, 06:10 PM
Dude, you're invited to my party on my condo's rooftop the day Crede gets traded/released/DFAed.


$10 says Crede lasts longer on the team than you last on this site.

nodiggity59
07-29-2005, 06:11 PM
You know what I just realized? The perfect player for the Sox would be Eric Chavez. Obviously, Beane was probably never gonna give him up. But earlier this year, I remember some of us myself included questioning the value Chavez would be to this team. well, for the record he would be damn PERFECT.

soxfan123
07-29-2005, 06:27 PM
$10 says Crede lasts longer on the team than you last on this site.

Very good.

MIgrenade
07-29-2005, 06:27 PM
You know what I just realized? The perfect player for the Sox would be Eric Chavez. Obviously, Beane was probably never gonna give him up. But earlier this year, I remember some of us myself included questioning the value Chavez would be to this team. well, for the record he would be damn PERFECT.

Wow. That's all I can say to this.

As for the rest of the thread, the deal stinks unless the Sox get a good 3rd baseman that can hit a bit, since Thomas is out (God that's death). I don't care about rentals. If it means WS then do it, but Wagner is bad in the playoffs, but we need somebody.

MRKARNO
07-29-2005, 11:47 PM
Consider the source. Has BP ever been right on one of these?

1. This is the first year that BP (and it's really only Will Carroll) has done a rumor mill because I think Carroll figured out that he just has so many major league contacts through his Under the Knife column that he could get these types of rumors out of them too.

2. How much more accurate is Peter Gammons??

:boston

"The White Sox are almost a lock to sign Omar Vizquel and Jaret Wright in this upcoming week"

Tragg
07-29-2005, 11:54 PM
Please don't do it.

I think that's too high a price, but the most insightful thing in that BP blurb is how high they have Burnett rated - well above Wagner. What a surprise - consistent with their love for paper pitchers.