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View Full Version : Ozzie = THE NEW TINKERER?


balz1472
07-28-2005, 10:29 AM
Ok. I just wanted to see if anyone noticed that since we have been playing worse as of late... the tinkering has been very present on our lineup? It seems like Jerry Manual has crept back into our dugout on the South Side.

What is the deal with the constant days off for the likes of Iguchi, Podsednik, Konerko... in the field in particular? Weren't we winning when we had guys play THEIR positions every day? How many outs have we given up in the past couple of weeks due to mis-plays by the Gloads / Harris' of our team?

I understand the idea of rest, but although it may keep them fresh... they seem to lose it in being sharp in the field and at the plate. It seems like we have a sense of complacency setting in!

WE NEED TO KEEP WINNING!:angry:

Saracen
07-28-2005, 10:33 AM
Apparently Iguchi has had a bum ankle of late & Konerko has only not played TWO games this year. That's "constant" days off?

BeviBall!
07-28-2005, 10:33 AM
He's like a mother... we won't know for sure until we're all growed up (October) whether or not it's worked.

Hopefully we'll be a well-adjusted family, rich for the experience instead of a Todd Marinovich, uber-controlling, weed-smoking mess.

ChiSoxPatF
07-28-2005, 10:33 AM
I'm sure you'll see the big names trotted out for the majority of the next few weeks. We played our reserves alot against the Royals because we have one heck of an August in front of us and it would be nice to have our best bats and legs rested.

Now IF Ozzie continues to tinker like he has for the next two or three weeks when we really need to make a statement against some of the better teams in baseball, then this criticism will be VERY warranted.

TornLabrum
07-28-2005, 10:35 AM
Ok. I just wanted to see if anyone noticed that since we have been playing worse as of late... the tinkering has been very present on our lineup? It seems like Jerry Manual has crept back into our dugout on the South Side.

What is the deal with the constant days off for the likes of Iguchi, Podsednik, Konerko... in the field in particular? Weren't we winning when we had guys play THEIR positions every day? How many outs have we given up in the past couple of weeks due to mis-plays by the Gloads / Harris' of our team?

I understand the idea of rest, but although it may keep them fresh... they seem to lose it in being sharp in the field and at the plate. It seems like we have a sense of complacency setting in!

WE NEED TO KEEP WINNING!:angry:

From what I can make out Ozzie has been resting guys because of the hot weather they've been playing in, which tends to take a lot out of players. (I wonder how they did it back when all games were played in the daylight and uniforms were made of wool flannel.)

Jerry Manuel used to do it when we were 5 games behind. Ozzie is doing it when we are 11 games up. It should help keep the guys fresh for the stretch drive. Remember we've got a lot of games coming up against the likes of New York, Boston, and Minnesota over the next few weeks.

Sxy Mofo
07-28-2005, 10:37 AM
Just remember guys, getting into the playoffs with all your guys healthy, rested, sharp and ready to go will give a better chance at winning the WS than winning 115 games.

That said, using every bullpen pitcher against the freaking royals isn't exactly the way to keep guys rested.

TornLabrum
07-28-2005, 10:38 AM
Just remember guys, getting into the playoffs with all your guys healthy, rested, sharp and ready to go will give a better chance at winning the WS than winning 115 games.

That said, using every bullpen pitcher against the freaking royals isn't exactly the way to keep guys rested.

Check your schedule. Today is an off day.

Baby Fisk
07-28-2005, 10:38 AM
Hopefully we'll be a well-adjusted family, rich for the experience instead of a Todd Marinovich, uber-controlling, weed-smoking mess.
Now THERE'S a unique metaphor! :o:

Sxy Mofo
07-28-2005, 10:42 AM
Check your schedule. Today is an off day.


Yea, I got that far.

Honestly, I know it's not a popular opinion here where people would rather we have a 30 game lead in late august, but there's a part of me that would rather see the sox kind of coast right now, and have to tighten it up to keep the lead in the pennant race towards the end of the season and go to the playoffs having played intense games instead of snoozers for the last month.


That's just my opinion, I'm not asking anyone to share it. So, while i'm disgusted at the loss yesterday, I'm overall not really angry.

MIgrenade
07-28-2005, 10:45 AM
Maybe he's trying to give up a few games so the Sox don't have to face the WC team if it happens to be Oakland.

TornLabrum
07-28-2005, 10:46 AM
Yea, I got that far.

Honestly, I know it's not a popular opinion here where people would rather we have a 30 game lead in late august, but there's a part of me that would rather see the sox kind of coast right now, and have to tighten it up to keep the lead in the pennant race towards the end of the season and go to the playoffs having played intense games instead of snoozers for the last month.


That's just my opinion, I'm not asking anyone to share it. So, while i'm disgusted at the loss yesterday, I'm overall not really angry.

I also want to point out that it's not unusual to go through your bullpen in a 13-inning game. It's too bad that the last man in was Vizcaino. Had they used him earlier, we could have all had an earlier supper.

I agree that it's a lot better for a team to go into the post-season with some intensity if they're actually in a race. I don't know how I reconcile that with my desire to see us kick *** in the rest of the schedule.

Sxy Mofo
07-28-2005, 10:52 AM
I agree that it's a lot better for a team to go into the post-season with some intensity if they're actually in a race. I don't know how I reconcile that with my desire to see us kick *** in the rest of the schedule.

I was thinking the exact same thing reading over my post again. I can't openly want them to lose, I don't want them to give less than 100% in any game, and I sure as hell don't want them to lose the way they lost yesterday, the day before, or the first game vs. the blow sox. Those have to be the most frustrating losses on the year, hands down.

And like you pointed out, how do you reconcile that with the desire to see them have to keep the pressure on (hopefully only a little bit) at the end of the year.

TornLabrum
07-28-2005, 10:53 AM
I was thinking the exact same thing reading over my post again. I can't openly want them to lose, I don't want them to give less than 100% in any game, and I sure as hell don't want them to lose the way they lost yesterday, the day before, or the first game vs. the blow sox. Those have to be the most frustrating losses on the year, hands down.

And like you pointed out, how do you reconcile that with the desire to see them have to keep the pressure on (hopefully only a little bit) at the end of the year.

My only answer is "That's why Ozzie is making the big bucks."

voodoochile
07-28-2005, 10:57 AM
From what I can make out Ozzie has been resting guys because of the hot weather they've been playing in, which tends to take a lot out of players. (I wonder how they did it back when all games were played in the daylight and uniforms were made of wool flannel.)

Jerry Manuel used to do it when we were 5 games behind. Ozzie is doing it when we are 11 games up. It should help keep the guys fresh for the stretch drive. Remember we've got a lot of games coming up against the likes of New York, Boston, and Minnesota over the next few weeks.

Well said, the team is also still adjusting to the loss of Frank again, so some things are going to shuffle around, IMO.

Now is the time to give guys a few days off so we are ready for the dog days ahead of us. Not like the Twinkies are making up ground on us now is it?

Frankly Missing
07-28-2005, 11:00 AM
Ozzie also has to see what kind of stuff the second string is made of so when its crunch time he has some idea of what to expect of them.

Sxy Mofo
07-28-2005, 11:01 AM
My only answer is "That's why Ozzie is making the big bucks."

Pretty much. I still wonder if, in the back of his mind (as he was a coach on the marlins WS-Wild Card team), that's the way he really does want to enter the post-season. Obviously winning the division and not the wild card, but going in having to play with intensity, instead of just trying to turn it on when it really matters.


I think one thing a lot of people forget is that he was a coach on a team that won the WS that is a lot like the one we have... as well as learning from Bobby Cox. Most of us, as sox fans, who are second guessing all of his decisions, don't even know what a world series looks like. Ozzie does though. In Oz we trust.

TornLabrum
07-28-2005, 11:02 AM
I think I came up with the answer to my own question on how guys were kept fresh. Back in the day, they started in mid-April and had a 154-game schedule and scheduled a lot of doubleheaders, so they also scheduled a lot more days off. Travel took longer but the teams farthest to the west were in St. Louis (and later Kansas City). By the time the leagues expanded, night games were a lot more common, except on the North Side of Chicago.

Frankly Missing
07-28-2005, 11:03 AM
I dont think Ozzie is that deep to try to orchestrate an intense end to the season.

MB , Garcia and Jon were on the mound against KC, on paper it seemed thetime to put the bench in the line up. Who knew?

TornLabrum
07-28-2005, 11:08 AM
I dont think Ozzie is that deep to try to orchestrate an intense end to the season.

MB and Jon were on the mound against KC, on paper it seemed thetime to put the bench in the line up. Who knew?

I don't know if he'd actually try to orchestrate it, but Ozzie is deep in terms of baseball savvy. I've sat at a table with him and listened to him talk baseball. He knows what the hell he's doing.

Sxy Mofo
07-28-2005, 11:09 AM
I dont think Ozzie is that deep to try to orchestrate an intense end to the season.

MB , Garcia and Jon were on the mound against KC, on paper it seemed thetime to put the bench in the line up. Who knew?


I don't think he's trying to make them lose - per se - to facilitate a somewhat intense end to the season, but I also don't think he's got the foot on the neck like he could. And I really don't blame him. Keep guys fresh.

btw, like the new signature?

Frankly Missing
07-28-2005, 11:10 AM
I wasnt knocking Ozzie. Mercy! I just dont think any manager tries to lose games in order to make an exciting finish.

Sxy Mofo
07-28-2005, 11:12 AM
I wasnt knocking Ozzie. Mercy! I just dont think any manager tries to lose games in order to make an exciting finish.

Again, I'll say, he's not trying to make them lose, but it's pretty obvious he doesn't have the foot on the neck right now.

The foot will meet the neck in the postseason or if the race is tight, and then in the post-season.

Frankly Missing
07-28-2005, 11:20 AM
I like the sound of that Mofo, "foot on the neck". good choice of words and use of it.

balke
07-28-2005, 11:25 AM
If you rest your guys in games against KC, then that raises the probability they'll be fresh for the playoffs. We aren't throwing away the season by keeping our stars healthy. Our hopes for postseason victories would fall dramatically if say, Podsednik pulled a groin ala Nomar.

I don't think we have that bad of back-ups. I don't like Timo, and Willie played like crap the other day. But, it could be a lot worse as far as players coming off the bench goes.

Lip Man 1
07-28-2005, 11:30 AM
Maybe it's just me but if as Balke suggests you eliminate Timo and Willie as 'bad' back-up's, that only leaves Ozuna, Widger and Gload.

Not exactly top shelf is it?

Lip

Sxy Mofo
07-28-2005, 11:35 AM
If you rest your guys in games against KC, then that raises the probability they'll be fresh for the playoffs. We aren't throwing away the season by keeping our stars healthy. Our hopes for postseason victories would fall dramatically if say, Podsednik pulled a groin ala Nomar.

I don't think we have that bad of back-ups. I don't like Timo, and Willie played like crap the other day. But, it could be a lot worse as far as players coming off the bench goes.

It's like i wrote before, you win world series by having your best players healthy, sharp and playing good baseball. You don't win them by winning 120 regular season games.

tschneid83
07-28-2005, 12:11 PM
Just wanted to add that I am glad that a lot of other sox fans (well people on here at least) share my opinion. It is hard to determine what to think at times with 5400 users on here, each with there own opinion.

You can't be happy with the way we have been playing and you never want to lose on purpose but you can not be extremely angry. MN is not gaining any ground, the bench has seen a lot of the field (for whatever reason it may be), hitting apprears to be coming around (at times), and the pitching will get it back together.

Once this weekend is over we will know exactly what we are working with and will be time to start getting things together again.

GO SOX

balke
07-28-2005, 12:17 PM
Maybe it's just me but if as Balke suggests you eliminate Timo and Willie as 'bad' back-up's, that only leaves Ozuna, Widger and Gload.

Not exactly top shelf is it?

Lip


Well, Widger is a better defensive catcher than Pierzynski, and has a decent bat for the Sox. Ozuna has speed, can swing a little and has helped keep rallies in the clutch alive. Gload is a better defender than Konerko, won rookie of the month last season, and provides a left-handed bat.

So I don't know what you're talking about Lip, you probably want Lowell coming off the bench to further clog the bases and fatten the Sox salary. Please give me an example of what a bench should look like.

Edit: I like our bench a lot better when Everett is on it. Frank needs to come back for the postseason.

Lip Man 1
07-28-2005, 12:22 PM
Well Graffinino and or Randa would have been a good place to start.

And if Levine's comments are accurate (you never know for sure with him...) then Williams felt the same way since according to him, Kenny thought he had deals in place to get both. Not pitching mind you but additional hitters/infielders.
That says volumes about what Williams felt were the weak areas.

Let's put it this way. I could live with Timo or Gload in a clutch situation in the post season...I don't know about Ozuna or Widger... and Harris.....God help us all if that scenario arises.

Lip

tschneid83
07-28-2005, 12:43 PM
Well Graffinino and or Randa would have been a good place to start.

And if Levine's comments are accurate (you never know for sure with him...) then Williams felt the same way since according to him, Kenny thought he had deals in place to get both. Not pitching mind you but additional hitters/infielders.
That says volumes about what Williams felt were the weak areas.

Let's put it this way. I could live with Timo or Gload in a clutch situation in the post season...I don't know about Ozuna or Widger... and Harris.....God help us all if that scenario arises.

Lip

I understand and heard about Levine's comments but they are bench players. If they were good enough to play everyday or if they were good in the cluth over and over then they would prolly be......starters, which they are not. Yes, upgrading them would be a plus but the deals feel through and so I am happy we are stuck with ozuna, widger, timo, and gload. no comment about willie, certain days I like him others I hate him.

mccoydp
07-28-2005, 01:13 PM
* Yawn *. The Twins have made up little ground to the Sox during the Sox's recent "slump". Wake me up when the lead is five games or less.

Sxy Mofo
07-28-2005, 01:26 PM
I'd like them to play with a little urgency before the post-season, but on that note as well, I don't want them to be playing with the mental strain of "one of the most monumental collapses in mlb history" on their minds.


And one thing I just thought about... this is the sox first legitimate slump of the season. And that comes with 100 games in the books, and a lot of the reason for the slump is because backups are getting a lot of PT.

That's simply amazing folks if you really sit down and think about it.

Fake Chet Lemon
07-28-2005, 01:28 PM
Ok. I just wanted to see if anyone noticed that since we have been playing worse as of late... the tinkering has been very present on our lineup? It seems like Jerry Manual has crept back into our dugout on the South Side.

:angry:


The answer is really obvious, so let's all cut Ozzie some slack until August 1st. It all has to do with the trading deadline. Ozzie and Kenny are either:

1) Showcasing talent for trades. We all know Marte can't pitch the 9th. But if we would have gotten lucky and Marte could have closed out a few games lately, we could have gotten more talent in return if he were to be traded.

2) Giving guys like Harris last chances to prove they belong on the team.

So come August 1st, look for a little more normal lineups unless there are injuries they are not disclosing.

chisoxmike
07-28-2005, 01:41 PM
If you rest your guys in games against KC, then that raises the probability they'll be fresh for the playoffs. We aren't throwing away the season by keeping our stars healthy. Our hopes for postseason victories would fall dramatically if say, Podsednik pulled a groin ala Nomar.

I don't think we have that bad of back-ups. I don't like Timo, and Willie played like crap the other day. But, it could be a lot worse as far as players coming off the bench goes.

:LTP
"Can I play guys?"

infohawk
07-28-2005, 02:03 PM
I remember that Scott Reifert mentioned in his blog that sometimes when a player isn't in the line-up it is because of some kind of injury. Ozzie may be "tinkering" because some of the guys are a little beat-up.

Mohoney
07-28-2005, 08:20 PM
Maybe it's just me but if as Balke suggests you eliminate Timo and Willie as 'bad' back-up's, that only leaves Ozuna, Widger and Gload.

Not exactly top shelf is it?

Lip

If we add a starting SS and add Uribe to this bench, and add Frank at starting DH and add Everett to the bench, it actually looks pretty good.

Lip Man 1
07-28-2005, 08:23 PM
Lot of 'if's' don't ya think? Especially with Thomas' health.

Lip

Tragg
07-28-2005, 08:28 PM
Manuel was moving people up and down the lineup.

Ozzie changes the lineup it seems to me to keep players fresh, healthy and to let everybody play at least once or twice a week, which is good for morale.

Mohoney
07-28-2005, 08:41 PM
Lot of 'if's' don't ya think? Especially with Thomas' health.

Lip

Yes, but I have the utmost faith that sad sack Willie just played himself off the team, and hopefully got Kenny to wrap up an Omar Vizquel deal

Chips
07-28-2005, 09:35 PM
I was thinking the exact same thing reading over my post again. I can't openly want them to lose, I don't want them to give less than 100% in any game, and I sure as hell don't want them to lose the way they lost yesterday, the day before, or the first game vs. the blow sox. Those have to be the most frustrating losses on the year, hands down.

And like you pointed out, how do you reconcile that with the desire to see them have to keep the pressure on (hopefully only a little bit) at the end of the year.

How about the first loss where Shingo gave up 3 solo jacks? Although those three losses sickening the **** out of me.

brewcrew/chisox
07-28-2005, 09:48 PM
:LTP
"Can I play guys?"

Um, no.

captain54
07-28-2005, 11:08 PM
Manuel was moving people up and down the lineup.

Ozzie changes the lineup it seems to me to keep players fresh, healthy and to let everybody play at least once or twice a week, which is good for morale.

the thing about Manuel that always struck me was (especially the last two years), is that it seemed like he was continually taking heat for not being a firey type of manager so he changed the lineup basically cause he wanted to look like he was doing something, or was told what to do by KW and JR...it never had any rhyme or reason to it...I specifically remember one Sunday in 2000 with a sellout crowd the entire lineup consisted of backups and minor leaguers....

at least with Ozzie it seems like someone is manning the ship.....we really don't know why he sits guys and why he doesn't....guys could be injured that we don't know about or could have personal problems....I definitely feel like Ozzie knows what he is doing....

StockdaleForVeep
07-28-2005, 11:45 PM
Ok. I just wanted to see if anyone noticed that since we have been playing worse as of late... the tinkering has been very present on our lineup? It seems like Jerry Manual has crept back into our dugout on the South Side.

What is the deal with the constant days off for the likes of Iguchi, Podsednik, Konerko... in the field in particular? Weren't we winning when we had guys play THEIR positions every day? How many outs have we given up in the past couple of weeks due to mis-plays by the Gloads / Harris' of our team?

I understand the idea of rest, but although it may keep them fresh... they seem to lose it in being sharp in the field and at the plate. It seems like we have a sense of complacency setting in!

WE NEED TO KEEP WINNING!:angry:

http://www.chess-theory.com/images/chess_bobby_fisher.jpg
"STOP QUESTIONING MY MOVES AND JUST ENJOY!"