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View Full Version : Bruce Levine Reports Sox May Take Lowell Too


Brian26
07-24-2005, 09:47 AM
Levine says everyone is on red alert. This trade is serious and could happen in the next 24 hours. The Sox are supposedly considering taking Lowell if Florida eats part of his contract since Frank is hurt now.

BeviBall!
07-24-2005, 09:53 AM
Levine says everyone is on red alert. This trade is serious and could happen in the next 24 hours. The Sox are supposedly considering taking Lowell if Florida eats part of his contract since Frank is hurt now.

If Frank is done for the season, this move makes complete sense as I don't see us getting Junior. I can see Lowell reborn here and putting up some tasty numbers. This way you have a good back up for Crede and we can send Willie away for good.

balke
07-24-2005, 09:55 AM
Lowell's stats (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3972) for anyone interested. I don't know what to think of this team and their philosophy if Lowell ends up on the team. Imagine Frank Paulie Lowell Everett and AJ in the same lineup. Ugh, molasses.

LuvSox
07-24-2005, 10:01 AM
I can see Lowell reborn here and putting up some tasty numbers.

Is this a hunch or do you have solid evidence?

samram
07-24-2005, 10:01 AM
Brian, thanks for the update. I usually love trade rumor stuff, but this Burnett thing is annoying. If Florida is willing to eat some of Lowell's salary, great. He seems like a guy that's not afraid to get a big hit, unlike some others currently hitting fourth for the the Sox.

veeter
07-24-2005, 10:02 AM
I don't think Lowell fits in at all. Gload can give the pop you need and he's free.

Brian26
07-24-2005, 10:22 AM
Interesting show so far. All of the callers have been totally opposed to the AJ trade for Marte. It seems like people just don't want to part with Marte at all and don't see the importance of adding a #4 type starter. Levine counters with the fact that Burnett makes the starting pitching stronger, which makes the reliever's load lighter. Levine thinks Contreras will be moved to either long relief or the closer's role if Hermy gets shut down.

Brian26
07-24-2005, 10:25 AM
Just had a sound clip of KW talking about adding a starting pitcher means you can move other guys to the bullpen depending on the schedule. This is what the Marlins did in 2003. I like the idea.

TomBradley72
07-24-2005, 10:34 AM
Interesting show so far. All of the callers have been totally opposed to the AJ trade for Marte. It seems like people just don't want to part with Marte at all and don't see the importance of adding a #4 type starter. Levine counters with the fact that Burnett makes the starting pitching stronger, which makes the reliever's load lighter. Levine thinks Contreras will be moved to either long relief or the closer's role if Hermy gets shut down.

Contreras as a closer = disaster. His control is not consistent enough to be a closer....he is a nice option when we'll need long relief or in the event one of the starter goes down with an injury. Overall....not sure how I feel about this trade...only one left hander (Cotts) in the bullpen concerns me.

SOXSINCE'70
07-24-2005, 10:34 AM
I wonder if KW is talking to the Pirates about names like
Jose Mesa,Mark Redman or Rob Macowiak(sp??).Mesa has WS
and playoff experience and could be a good backup for
Hermanson if the shoulder/back issues don't solve themselves.
Redman also has playoff experience,IIRC.

Just asking.

hose
07-24-2005, 10:35 AM
Lowell can pick it at third and I think his bat will heat up with a change of venue.

Insurance for Crede's back isn't a bad thing , KW can work out the money part .
AJ and Lowell YES

jabrch
07-24-2005, 10:38 AM
I can see Lowell reborn here and putting up some tasty numbers.

In my humble opinion, that would require MLB to repeal its drug testing policy...

I have no facts to back this up - just my judgement from looking at him. He seems, like Ivan Rodriguez, to have started a very different nutrition program this year.

hose
07-24-2005, 10:41 AM
In my humble opinion, that would require MLB to repeal its drug testing policy...I have no facts to back this up -

I agree with you on the part that says you have no facts to back this up.

ilsox7
07-24-2005, 10:43 AM
In my humble opinion, that would require MLB to repeal its drug testing policy...

I have no facts to back this up - just my judgement from looking at him. He seems, like Ivan Rodriguez, to have started a very different nutrition program this year.

Lowell has beaten cancer. I would say someone who has gone thru that is unlikely to be putting foreign substances in his body that are known to have bad consequences.

Jjav829
07-24-2005, 10:43 AM
In my humble opinion, that would require MLB to repeal its drug testing policy...

I have no facts to back this up - just my judgement from looking at him. He seems, like Ivan Rodriguez, to have started a very different nutrition program this year.

He looks the same this year as always. I don't buy into the idea that Lowell was on roids. He's just in a bad slump, similar to Konerko and Pat Burrell two years ago. He's starting to show signs of coming out of that slump.

I don't see why the Marlins would eat part of Lowell's deal now. They weren't willing to do it several days go to get the deal done with Baltimore. Now they supposedly have realized they can't get rid of Lowell and are just trying to trade Burnett. So the Sox come calling about Lowell and all of a sudden the Marlins are gonna do a 180 and eat part of Lowell's contract? I'm not saying it won't happen, it just seems unlikely.

Tragg
07-24-2005, 11:12 AM
We need a hitter? Then why do we want Lowell? Go get a good hitter, not a horrible hitter in the first non-steroid season.

4th starter is hardly the most important deficiency on this team.

Mindboggling.

Here is the Burnett file:

Last 4 starts: ERA of 7.67
Last 10 starts: ERA of 4.78
Season ERA: 3.68
Best Season: 12-9
Career Record: 43-44
7 career shut-outs, 6 of which were pre-Tommy John surgery that occured in 2003.

This is the $10 million man, the man who deserves a higher contract than MB, Garcia or Garland

The man should only be rented, not extended. Contreras for Burnett, straight up. Throw in shingo.

Tragg
07-24-2005, 11:16 AM
Lowell has beaten cancer. I would say someone who has gone thru that is unlikely to be putting foreign substances in his body that are known to have bad consequences.

But why take the chance for what is, at his best, a Konerko level hitter? And even if he was clean, what is true is that he absolutely sucks this year. It's a senseless risk with marginal upside and a ton of downside.
There IS reason why Florida has been trying to dump this guy for 2 seasons (Burnett too - all style, no substance).

ndgt10
07-24-2005, 11:19 AM
We need a hitter? Then go get a good hitter, nor a horrible hitter in the first non-steroid season.

Why make accusations that you have no idea about besides the assumption that his low average this year is because he is not on steroids? Call him a crappy hitter, but don't pretend that you have conclusive evidence that he took steroids.

Tragg
07-24-2005, 11:23 AM
Why make accusations that you have no idea about besides the assumption that his low average this year is because he is not on steroids? Call him a crappy hitter, but don't pretend that you have conclusive evidence that he took steroids.

I didn't make an accusation - please read carefully. I never said he was on steroids. What I said was it's stupid to get players having bad seasons in the first non-steroid year (meaning of baseball, not of him).

EMel9281
07-24-2005, 11:29 AM
If we get AJ for Marte, KW should find the needle in the haystack and see if, and what, he can get Wagner for. Ship Contreras to Philly with someone else, if needed. That would be a solution for losing Marte. I don't want Contreras in the bullpen. If they are getting Burnett to take his spot in the rotation, then he needs to go buh-bye.

And, if I see Wagner on this team before 07/31, I might just wet myself...

...and, I mean it, too!

CubKilla
07-24-2005, 11:30 AM
I don't think Lowell fits in at all. Gload can give the pop you need and he's free.

I'd like to know why so many here believe Gload is the answer to all of Konerko's problems. *** has Gload done in his MLB career that makes him a cure-all for our recent offensive struggles?

The numbers..... please?

Buehrle, Garland, Burnett, and Duque in the playoffs? Are you kidding me? That's filthy sick. You may not even need a BP if those 3 pitch to their capabilities.

And has anyone forgot how clutch Lowell was in '03? And if Frank's hurting, adding Lowell makes all the sense in the world.

If Marte goes, look for KW to acquire another BP arm too.

ilsox7
07-24-2005, 11:33 AM
I'd like to know why so many here believe Gload is the answer to all of Konerko's problems. *** has Gload done in his MLB career that makes him a cure-all for our recent offensive struggles?

The numbers..... please?

Buehrle, Garland, Burnett, and Duque in the playoffs? Are you kidding me? That's filthy sick. You may not even need a BP if those 3 pitch to their capabilities.

And has anyone forgot how clutch Lowell was in '03? And if Frank's hurting, adding Lowell makes all the sense in the world.

If Marte goes, look for KW to acquire another BP arm too.

You forgot about Garcia. He'd be in there instead of Orlando.

TornLabrum
07-24-2005, 11:34 AM
I didn't make an accusation - please read carefully. I never said he was on steroids. What I said was it's stupid to get players having bad seasons in the first non-steroid year (meaning of baseball, not of him).

So why the reference steroids at all if you're not trying to imply something?

Jjav829
07-24-2005, 11:35 AM
If we get AJ for Marte, KW should find the needle in the haystack and see if, and what, he can get Wagner for. Ship Contreras to Philly with someone else, if needed. That would be a solution for losing Marte. I don't want Contreras in the bullpen. If they are getting Burnett to take his spot in the rotation, then he needs to go buh-bye.

And, if I see Wagner on this team before 07/31, I might just wet myself...

...and, I mean it, too!

I agree. I don't want Contreras in the bullpen. In an ideal scenario, if the Burnett deal goes down without Contreras (Bmac and Marte), it would be nice to trade Contreras (and prospects) to the Mariners and get both Ron Villone and Eddie Guardado. Of course, I would hope that KW tries to trade Contreras to Philly for Wagner first. If that won't work, and it probably won't, perhaps the Mariners would take him on for Villone and/or Guardado.

Tragg
07-24-2005, 11:36 AM
The numbers..... please?

.

Here are some numbers: Lowell, .230, 5 HRS, .280 OBP, .360 Slg. He's a key reason why the Marlins suck. So we want THEIR problems on this team?
I'm confident in saying that gload can beat those numbers. Hell, I bet Harris can play first - he can beat those numbers.


What I find utterly remarkable is that our OWN fans say Shingo had a lousy year, so we shouldnt' get anything for him. But the great Mike Lowell and his .230 BA- WELL, it's just a bad year and he needs a change of scenery.
Why don't we just trade our roster for the Marlins roster, with all of those great players. Wow - we could have Juan PIerre RIGHT NOW!!!!

CubKilla
07-24-2005, 11:39 AM
You forgot about Garcia. He'd be in there instead of Orlando.

You're right. My bad :redface:

ilsox7
07-24-2005, 11:40 AM
Here are some numbers: Lowell, .230, 5 HRS, .280 OBP, .360 Slg. He's a key reason why the Marlins suck. So we want THEIR problems on this team?
I'm confident in saying that gload can beat those numbers. Hell, I bet Harris can play first - he can beat those numbers.


What I find utterly remarkable is that our OWN fans say Shingo had a lousy year, so we shouldnt' get anything for him. But the great Mike Lowell and his .230 BA- WELL, it's just a bad year and he needs a change of scenery.
Why don't we just trade our roster for the Marlins roster, with all of those great players. Wow - we could have Juan PIerre RIGHT NOW!!!!

Well, Lowell hit .250 in June and is hitting .308 in July...so maybe he has turned it around and will put together a solid 2nd half. Who knows...it's a guessing/scouting game and at this point, I tend to trust KW given past results of his moves.

Daver
07-24-2005, 11:41 AM
If the best deal available going into the deadline is a pitcher that has been on the DL every year since 2000, and an infielder hitting .230, I would prefer to stay pat.

Tragg
07-24-2005, 11:42 AM
So why the reference steroids at all if you're not trying to imply something?

Because steroids are relevant in discussions of hitters, particularly those having bad years.

You don't know who was or who wasn't on steroids. And if they were on steroids, then the sudden absence of power isn't a mere "Bad year."
Therefore, there is a chance we'll be stuck with this player (who never was particularly good anyway) and zero production. So why get him?

What's wrong with getting a good hitter (especially as we'll pay a price as if he were a good hitter).

CubKilla
07-24-2005, 11:43 AM
Here are some numbers: Lowell, .230, 5 HRS, .280 OBP, .360 Slg. He's a key reason why the Marlins suck. So we want THEIR problems on this team?
I'm confident in saying that gload can beat those numbers. Hell, I bet Harris can play first - he can beat those numbers.


What I find utterly remarkable is that our OWN fans say Shingo had a lousy year, so we shouldnt' get anything for him. But the great Mike Lowell and his .230 BA- WELL, it's just a bad year and he needs a change of scenery.
Why don't we just trade our roster for the Marlins roster, with all of those great players. Wow - we could have Juan PIerre RIGHT NOW!!!!

I'd rather get just AJB without Lowell but, if Frank's hurting, insurance for him and a hurting Crede makes sense. That's all I'm saying. Lowell has shown he could put up big-time offensive numbers and Gload can't play 3B. Keep Gload as PK's back-up and, by any means necessary, keep Gload out of the OF.

illinibk
07-24-2005, 11:43 AM
And has anyone forgot how clutch Lowell was in '03? And if Frank's hurting, adding Lowell makes all the sense in the world.
What's with all the love for Lowell all of the sudden? So Lowell was clutch in 2003 postseason? Good for him. How does that help the Sox this year? Is he even capable of that type of performance again? What I can't figure out, is how does Lowell fit into an Ozzie line-up. How does throwing him in the line-up make the batting order anything other than the Jerry Manuel would trot out there every day? The Sox don't need another Konerko, and a mediocre pitcher with potential, especially at the expense of BMac and Marte.

Jjav829
07-24-2005, 11:44 AM
What I find utterly remarkable is that our OWN fans say Shingo had a lousy year, so we shouldnt' get anything for him. But the great Mike Lowell and his .230 BA- WELL, it's just a bad year and he needs a change of scenery.
Why don't we just trade our roster for the Marlins roster, with all of those great players. Wow - we could have Juan PIerre RIGHT NOW!!!!

Oh come on. You don't see a difference between a pitcher who comes over from Japan and has one good year behind a funky motion and a trick pitcher and then struggles, and a third baseman who has put up good numbers for 5 straight years, including an OPS of .870+ the past two years?

CubKilla
07-24-2005, 11:46 AM
What's with all the love for Lowell all of the sudden? So Lowell was clutch in 2003 postseason? Good for him. How does that help the Sox this year? Is he even capable of that type of performance again? What I can't figure out, is how does Lowell fit into an Ozzie line-up. How does throwing him in the line-up make the batting order anything other than the Jerry Manuel would trot out there every day? The Sox don't need another Konerko, and a mediocre pitcher with potential, especially at the expense of BMac and Marte.

Lowell makes sense as back-up for ailing Thomas and Crede.

AJB is better than mediocre. The only downside to AJB is the health issue.

ilsox7
07-24-2005, 11:48 AM
Lowell makes sense as back-up for ailing Thomas and Crede.

AJB is better than mediocre. The only downside to AJB is the health issue.

Everyone keeps bringing up the health issue. He had Tommy John over 2 years ago...has he been hurt since? Lots of guys have TJS and come back even stronger than before. The comparsions to Carrie do not make sense for me here, in terms of injury, b/c I am pretty sure AJ has not been on the DL on about 6 different occasions in the last few years.

EDIT: To me, the biggest issue with AJ is learning to pitch. If he isn't messed up in the head like Contreras seems to be, I'd put my faith in Coop to straighten him out. Unfortunately, that may take an off season to do, though.

Tragg
07-24-2005, 11:49 AM
Oh come on. You don't see a difference between a pitcher who comes over from Japan and has one good year behind a funky motion and a trick pitcher and then struggles, and a third baseman who has put up good numbers for 5 straight years, including an OPS of .870+ the past two years?
It was hyperbole to make a point.
Why take a chance on a guy who was never an all-star level player anyway?

Addressing clutch in 2003: please put Gene Tenace in the Hall of Fame and do anything we can to get Brandon Backe on this team.

Why don't we go get good players? Why do we have to mess around with all of these underperformers, especially as their team as been trying to dump them for ages, and especially as the price we pay is as if they WERE good players?
Go get Wagner. Go get Griffey. These are good players.
The astros got Beltran and years ago, Randy Johnson- we want Mike Lowell and AJ Burnett (but at a Beltran/Johnson price). What's wrong with this picture?

Tragg
07-24-2005, 11:50 AM
If the best deal available going into the deadline is a pitcher that has been on the DL every year since 2000, and an infielder hitting .230, I would prefer to stay pat.

Perfectly stated.

CHIsoxNation
07-24-2005, 11:55 AM
For as great as the WhiteSox have played this year, I still don't believe they have a championship caliber team. I believe they have a team that can contend for it, but I would not count them as the favorites.


If KW can make this deal, and possibly trade off Burnett to the Phils to get Wagner then I believe we will be the favorites. I believe it makes us even stronger to have Lowell on our team as a back up for Crede or Frank.

TaylorStSox
07-24-2005, 12:01 PM
Here's a positive thing about Lowell. He's hit alot of doubles this year. That translates into about 15 homers if he is hitting at our park. So, he's another poor fielding, slow, low average, power hitting RH batter. I don't think we've ever had any of those. Wake me when this is over.

:thumbsdown

TaylorStSox
07-24-2005, 12:02 PM
Lowell makes sense as back-up for ailing Thomas and Crede.

AJB is better than mediocre. The only downside to AJB is the health issue.


I bet you talk poorly of Wood all the time. What's the difference between the two? They're both hard throwing RH pitchers that haven't done in a thing in their whole career sans racking up K's.

EMel9281
07-24-2005, 12:04 PM
Hey, Cincinnati should be looking for a new 3B right? Send Lowell to Cincy or someone...?

I have always thought that we needed to get rid of Crede, but, honestly, he isn't as bad as I thought. He hits in the clutch has great defense. Lowell is definitely not an upgrade. If we take Lowell on, I would fully expect KW to trade him, especially if we lose Marte.

Podzilla_40
07-24-2005, 12:04 PM
Lowell is a chance we have to take. He can be a .270 avg. .370 obp kind of guy. He adds experience and we will be able to take the salary hit when we flip Contreras to the M's for Everyday Eddie.

TaylorStSox
07-24-2005, 12:05 PM
Hey, Cincinnati should be looking for a new 3B right? Send Lowell to Cincy or someone...?

I have always thought that we needed to get rid of Crede, but, honestly, he isn't as bad as I thought. He hits in the clutch has great defense. Lowell is definitely not an upgrade. If we take Lowell on, I would fully expect KW to trade him, especially if we lose Marte.


Cincy's bringing up one of the premier 3B prospects in baseball. So, your idea sucks.

Chicago83
07-24-2005, 12:07 PM
This is a bad trade, I really hope it is BS. The Marlins are very smart and are trying to unload two mediocre players on us. Crede is better than Lowell and Contreras is better than AJ. This trade makes no sense to me.

Podzilla_40
07-24-2005, 12:08 PM
Conterars is better than AJ.
:rolleyes:

EMel9281
07-24-2005, 12:11 PM
Cincy's bringing up one of the premier 3B prospects in baseball. So, your idea sucks.

Well, thanks, for that rude piece of information. I am know better informed because you.

So, here's to ya!
:bart

ChiSoxPatF
07-24-2005, 12:14 PM
I couldn't disagree more. I haven't heard much about Lowell being involved but from what I heard its Marte and McCarthy for Burnett. This would be an in-freakin'-believable trade.


Remember that McCarthy is just a prospect - he MAY someday become something, he's no sure bet. Plus until three starts in Spring Training he was a B-list prospect. This maybe a perfect instance of striking when the value is high.

Second, Marte may be the most overrated player on the Sox. His numbers are great until you see how many runs he lets in for everyone else. He's not a shutdown guy, he's a 7th inning or maybe 8th inning guy at best.

So we're giving up one prospect and an overrated mid-reliever for a kid with phenomenal stuff. The Wood comparisons are overblown too - sure the numbers are similiar but Wood has a history of getting reinjured. Burnett has only been hurt ONCE albeit a significant season ending injury. The reason the buzz is around him is because hes finally gotten his stuff back to the level of pre-Tommy John.

Kenny, make the deal in a heartbeat and consider yourself a genius, They've tried to focus on pitching and this makes us the undeniable best rotation in baseball. If need be, just turn around and trade Contreras for two GOOD midrelievers - they're a dime a dozen.

Podzilla_40
07-24-2005, 12:17 PM
Assuming this goes down, who could we spin Contreras for?

From Seattle Times
White Sox closer Dustin Hermanson (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5387/) misses time with lower-back pain, raising concerns about his availability for the stretch drive, despite MRIs that show no major damage. Instant conclusion: The Sox are in the market for a closer, a group that includes Danys Baez (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6395/), Jose Mesa (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/4143/), Miguel Batista (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/4815/), possibly Billy Wagner (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5536/) (a free agent after the season), and the Mariners' mystery man, Eddie Guardado (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5051/), whom sources say doesn't interest the Sox but beguiles just about everyone else.
Baez would be alright, NO to Batista, I'd take Mesa if they give us Mackowiak aswell. Also, I hope the sources are wrong about Guardado.

Chicago83
07-24-2005, 12:18 PM
What's the love affection with AJ? 3.68 ERA in one of the most pitcher friendly NL parks. We would basically be trading a valuable lefty and a pitching prospect for a fifth starter who we won't even use in the playoffs. I gurantee when he moves into a hitter friendly AL park his ERA will jump into the 4.5 area.

Tragg
07-24-2005, 12:19 PM
This is a bad trade, I really hope it is BS. The Marlins are very smart and are trying to unload two mediocre players on us. Crede is better than Lowell and Contreras is better than AJ. This trade makes no sense to me.
Even if they are better, they are only marginally better. And the best one of the bunch is unsigned after this year. The trade truly makes no sense at all.

Chicago83
07-24-2005, 12:22 PM
Assuming this goes down, who could we spin Contreras for?

From Seattle Times

Baez would be alright, NO to Batista, I'd take Mesa if they give us Mackowiak aswell. Also, I hope the sources are wrong about Guardado.

None of these teams would have any interest in Contreras and his large contract.

ilsox7
07-24-2005, 12:23 PM
What I'm wondering is how this thread is any different than the 4.3 billion post thread already on this same topic. Seriously, this cannot be beat into the ground anymore than it already has. Let's just sit back and wait and see what happens.

Tragg
07-24-2005, 12:26 PM
So we're giving up one prospect and an overrated mid-reliever for a kid with phenomenal stuff. The Wood comparisons are overblown too - sure the numbers are similiar but Wood has a history of getting reinjured. Burnett has only been hurt ONCE albeit a significant season ending injury. The reason the buzz is around him is because hes finally gotten his stuff back to the level of pre-Tommy John.

Kenny, make the deal in a heartbeat and consider yourself a genius, They've tried to focus on pitching and this makes us the undeniable best rotation in baseball. If need be, just turn around and trade Contreras for two GOOD midrelievers - they're a dime a dozen.

First, AJ is not a "kid" - he's 28. He's had more than enough time to do something with his "phenominal stuff". Yet, he remains a career loser on a good team, a career 3.67 against inferior national league competition, including an ERA in the last 10 games of 4.68.

Second, this is a RENT - a 3 month RENT. To convert beyond that, means you pay this pitcher more than any of our other pitchers.

Third, no he isn't on the DL as much as Wood, but he's on it a lot. Further, he shares "Great stuff - little production" aspects of Wood's career.

Anyway, I could live with marte-maccarthy for the rental. (although I think that's essentially giving away 2 players; and you need LH pitching in the playoffs).

It's adding additional talent for the useless Mike Lowell where I draw the line.

As for Marte, he's having his worst season yet (although not ERA wise). But for the last 4 seasons, his worst ERA is 3.4 and has averaged over a K per inning (a stat which should please the Burnett-lovers). He's been a consistent rock in our pen. What LH reliever do you suggest we get to replace those numbers? We'll probably get some guy with inflated NL numbers like Vizcaino had. OH and you DO NOT win in the AL playoffs without left-handed pitching.
so all this means is we send another 2 prospects to replace Marte.
But we will have Mr sub-.500 himself and Joe Sheehan will be on our side - we'll have AJ Burnett.

balke
07-24-2005, 12:28 PM
What I'm wondering is how this thread is any different than the 4.3 billion post thread already on this same topic. Seriously, this cannot be beat into the ground anymore than it already has. Let's just sit back and wait and see what happens.

Too true. This is as bad as rumors can get. Next we'll hear the Royals are part of a 3-way deal involving Texas and the Yankees.

Chicago83
07-24-2005, 12:31 PM
First, AJ is not a "kid" - he's 28. He's had more than enough time to do something with his "phenominal stuff". Yet, he remains a career loser on a good team, a career 3.67 against inferior national league competition, including an ERA in the last 10 games of 4.68.

Second, this is a RENT - a 3 month RENT. To convert beyond that, means you pay this pitcher more than any of our others.

Third, no he isn't on the DL as much as Wood, but he's on it a lot. Further, he shares "Great stuff - little production" aspects of Wood's career.

Anyway, I could live with marte-maccarthy for the rental. (although I think that's essentially giving away 2 players; and you need LH pitching in the playoffs).

It's adding additional talent for the useless Mike Lowell where I draw the line.

Well said. Personally I don't even want to see AJ for Marte-McCarthy, but if AJ is the only starter we can get then I guess I can live with it.

Whitesox4ever
07-24-2005, 12:39 PM
Bruce Levine says the deal will go down in the next 24 hours.

D Marte
B Mac

Also heard the sox are intersted in Alex Gonzalez of FLa so it might be a big blockbuster

nelly+luis=gods
07-24-2005, 12:40 PM
DUDE, what's the score?
BTW, welcome.:smile:

ilsox7
07-24-2005, 12:41 PM
I fear for you...this being your first post and all. Check out the forum: "What's the Score?" There are easily over 600 posts about this topic.

Welcome and hopefully folks take it easy on you! :smile:

CHISOXFAN13
07-24-2005, 12:41 PM
Bruce Levine says the deal will go down in the next 24 hours.

D Marte
B Mac

Also heard the sox are intersted in Alex Gonzalez of FLa so it might be a big blockbuster

Oh boy, another A.J. Burnett trade rumor thread.

Tragg
07-24-2005, 12:56 PM
I fear for you...this being your first post and all. Check out the forum: "What's the Score?" There are easily over 600 posts about this topic.

Welcome and hopefully folks take it easy on you! :smile:

You're lowballing it - I've probably made 600 myself on the subject. :redface:

ilsox7
07-24-2005, 12:58 PM
You're lowballing it - I've probably made 600 myself on the subject. :redface:

Haha. I cannot wait to see the explosion (or implosion) when/if this trade goes down. I still haven't made up my mind whether or not I am for it and won't until it is official. Should be interesting.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-24-2005, 01:08 PM
I can't believe this thread has 60 posts and NOBODY has raised the most obvious point:

Lowell plays third base!

Crede goes to the bench and bye-bye Willie Harris!

Lowell is clearly an upgrade. We're basically adding him and dumping our current #8 hitter. Adding him strengthens our bench, too.

I'm a lot more excited about the prospect of adding an everyday player with some pop in his bat over a sixth starting pitcher. The extra pitcher is nothing but insurance against the other five getting hurt.

Watching this team's offensive slump without Frank in the lineup makes the offense a far more critical need than stockpiling another arm.

UofCSoxFan
07-24-2005, 01:10 PM
Lowell's stats (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3972) for anyone interested. I don't know what to think of this team and their philosophy if Lowell ends up on the team. Imagine Frank Paulie Lowell Everett and AJ in the same lineup. Ugh, molasses.

Ok...first of all how oftern are Frank and Carl in the lineup together...almost never. 2nd, if Frank is hurt, Lowell or Everett will take his place as DH. Third, if Lowell plays third he replaces Crede...who is slow also. There would be no speed decrease.

Podzilla_40
07-24-2005, 01:11 PM
Actually, I think Lowell will DH, and play 3rd 2-3 days a week to give Joe some time off and let Carl in the line up. I think it's a great move for the lineup.

Pods
Gooch
Row
Konerko
Lowell
AJP
Dye
Crede
Alex Gonzalez

Daver
07-24-2005, 01:12 PM
I can't believe this thread has 60 posts and NOBODY has raised the most obvious point:

Lowell plays third base!

Crede goes to the bench and bye-bye Willie Harris!


You want to replace the current #8 hitter with a player struggling even more than he is at the plate?

The only upside to your whole scenario is losing Willie.

Tragg
07-24-2005, 01:16 PM
Lowell is clearly an upgrade. We're basically adding him and dumping our current #8 hitter. Adding him strengthens our bench, too.


?? Crede is hitting a hell of a lot better than .230 with 5 homers. And we don't have to give up talent or pay an absurd $8mill salary to get Crede's production.
At his best, Lowell= Konerko. No evidence he will ever approach that level again.

A senseless trade proposal, imo.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-24-2005, 01:17 PM
You want to replace the current #8 hitter with a player struggling even more than he is at the plate?

The only upside to your whole scenario is losing Willie.

Lowell has a long history of producing at the major league level. Crede doesn't. Waiting for Crede to produce is like waiting for the love letter that never arrives. However I would love to have Crede coming off the bench... far better than anything Wee-Willie could ever be counted on to produce.

:thumbsup:

Let's not forget it was Charles Johnson who went on a unholy tear after he was acquired via trade in 2000. In fact it was his unlikely bat that carried the Sox over the finish line. Lowell has the pedigree to deliver in similar fashion.

This team needs a stick. Waiting for Frank is too big a risk.

UofCSoxFan
07-24-2005, 01:17 PM
Everyone keeps bringing up the health issue. He had Tommy John over 2 years ago...has he been hurt since? Lots of guys have TJS and come back even stronger than before. The comparsions to Carrie do not make sense for me here, in terms of injury, b/c I am pretty sure AJ has not been on the DL on about 6 different occasions in the last few years.

EDIT: To me, the biggest issue with AJ is learning to pitch. If he isn't messed up in the head like Contreras seems to be, I'd put my faith in Coop to straighten him out. Unfortunately, that may take an off season to do, though.

I agree with your injury point. I mean John Smoltz had Tommy John...anyone here not want him?

Optipessimism
07-24-2005, 01:19 PM
You want to replace the current #8 hitter with a player struggling even more than he is at the plate?

The only upside to your whole scenario is losing Willie.

I agree with you there. Since Crede's back is bothering him, adding Lowell makes sense in that area. But, I'd still rather have Crede out there because of his glove. Also, Crede gets hot right about now (and he has been the last few games) and stays that way through the end of the summer. If you take Crede out of the lineup, due it early when he struggles. Now is not the time.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-24-2005, 01:19 PM
?? Crede is hitting a hell of a lot better than .230 with 5 homers. And we don't have to give up talent or pay an absurd $8mill salary to get Crede's production.
At his best, Lowell= Konerko. No evidence he will ever approach that level again.

A senseless trade proposal, imo.

Me thinks the lady doth protest too much...

:cool:

PaleHoseGeorge
07-24-2005, 01:21 PM
But, I'd still rather have Crede out there because of his glove. Also, Crede gets hot right about now (and he has been the last few games) and stays that way through the end of the summer. If you take Crede out of the lineup, due it early when he struggles. Now is not the time.

I'm wondering if you realize how perfectly you've described Crede as the best-possible utility ballplayer for the Sox bench?

:cool:

Tragg
07-24-2005, 01:23 PM
Let's not forget it was Charles Johnson who went on a unholy tear after he was acquired via trade in 2000. In fact it was his unlikely bat that carried the Sox over the finish line. Lowell has the pedigree to deliver in similar fashion.

This team needs a stick. Waiting for Frank is too big a risk.

Then let's get a REAL stick - not some stiff and pray he reverts to form from last year..

Charles Johnson, did not suddenly hit well when he came to the Sox. Before he came to the Sox, he had hit 21 homers and a .364 OBP with Baltimore.
With the Sox, he did get even better, but he had a foundation to start. That was a trade for a good player having a good season.

This is a trade for a decent player having a horrible season.

Daver
07-24-2005, 01:23 PM
Lowell has a long history of producing at the major league level. Crede doesn't. Waiting for Crede to produce is like waiting for the love letter that never arrives. However I would love to have Crede coming off the bench... far better than anything Wee-Willie could ever be counted on to produce.

:thumbsup:

Let's not forget it was Charles Johnson who went on a unholy tear after he was acquired via trade in 2000. In fact it was his unlikely bat that carried the Sox over the finish line. Lowell has the pedigree to deliver in similar fashion.

This team needs a stick. Waiting for Frank is too big a risk.

This team compiled the best record in baseball in the first half, and you want to gamble that a hitter having a down year might turn it around?

I reiterite, if the best deal available at the deadline is a pitcher that has been on the DL every year since 2000, and a struggling infielder, I'd prefer they stay pat.

ilsox7
07-24-2005, 01:24 PM
Lowell has a long history of producing at the major league level. Crede doesn't. Waiting for Crede to produce is like waiting for the love letter that never arrives. However I would love to have Crede coming off the bench... far better than anything Wee-Willie could ever be counted on to produce.

:thumbsup:

Let's not forget it was Charles Johnson who went on a unholy tear after he was acquired via trade in 2000. In fact it was his unlikely bat that carried the Sox over the finish line. Lowell has the pedigree to deliver in similar fashion.

This team needs a stick. Waiting for Frank is too big a risk.

I totally agree. And the last 7 weeks have show that Lowell is coming around and producing at a greater level than Joe. I am a Crede fan, but I think if you can use Lowell in the DH/3rd base role, it's a nice upgrade all the way around. And if he does produce, then you just may have your GIDPK replacement for next year.

My guess on this whole deal is that it's done in terms of players, but they are hammering out money issues. I think it only falls apart if they cannot come to agreement on Lowell's contract. As for signing AJ, if he really is looking for $10MM+ for 4-5 years, he will be a rental.

Podzilla_40
07-24-2005, 01:24 PM
doesn't Lowell have an awesome fielding percentage?

UofCSoxFan
07-24-2005, 01:27 PM
See I think people are looking at the Lowell factor the wrong way. Florida very well isn't recquireing more from him but simply wants a team to take on his salary (FL is small market after all). I mean it could very well be that aj for marte and bmac won't work but aj and lowell for marte and bmac would. If this is the case, its almost like the Sox throwing in cash on top of the deal. We don't have to play Lowell if he doesn't produce here.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-24-2005, 01:29 PM
This team compiled the best record in baseball in the first half, and you want to gamble that a hitter having a down year might turn it around?

I reiterite, if the best deal available at the deadline is a pitcher that has been on the DL every year since 2000, and a struggling infielder, I'd prefer they stay pat.

I'm thinking about October, not July-September. I hope Frank will be back and in form, but it's too big a risk to assume he will be.

No way I want this pea-shooter offense facing another team's best pitchers trying to hit a baseball at night in cold weather.

"Best record in baseball" sounds like one of those titles they award to forgettable also-rans.

Lowell in. Crede off the bench. Harris back in the bushes.
:cool:

Tragg
07-24-2005, 01:32 PM
I totally agree. And the last 7 weeks have show that Lowell is coming around and producing at a greater level than Joe. .

Lowell has a .263 average his last 10 games.

Stark or somenoe said that one GM called him "sammy sosa's twin"

some people don't like crede - I get that. But getting 20+ homers for a season out of your 8 hole hitter isn't that bad. Especially at the price of getting stuck with ANOTHER Konerko like contract for 2.5 more years for production that probably won't come close to Konerko's.

Daver
07-24-2005, 01:34 PM
I'm thinking about October, not July-September. I hope Frank will be back and in form, but it's too big a risk to assume he will be.

No way I want this pea-shooter offense facing another team's best pitchers trying to hit a baseball at night in cold weather.

"Best record in baseball" sounds like one of those titles they award to forgettable also-rans.

Lowell in. Crede off the bench. Harris back in the bushes.
:cool:

Then go get a hitter, not take on Lowell's bad contract on a gamble that he might turn it around. Griffey could be had for next to nothing if you take on his contract, as is Thome.

ilsox7
07-24-2005, 01:35 PM
Lowell has a .263 average his last 10 games.

Well, he's hitting .274 since the beginning of June. That's in line with his career splits, which is why I was saying he may be back to producing as he has over the last several years.

Optipessimism
07-24-2005, 01:38 PM
Then go get a hitter, not take on Lowell's bad contract on a gamble that he might turn it around. Griffey could be had for next to nothing if you take on his contract, as is Thome.

I agree. Go get Griffey and his bad contract (can't believe I'm saying this)!

Why take a slumping hitter and put him in a different league? Now, still in a slump, he has to work with a new hitting coach who will probably want to change something (not necessarily a bad thing), and he'll be out there almost every night against pitchers that he's never seen before. The only way I like this move if it is a precursor to another move for another bat, but I'm really skeptical of Uncle Jerry willing to pony up THAT much. I hope I'm wrong though.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-24-2005, 01:38 PM
Then go get a hitter, not take on Lowell's bad contract on a gamble that he [i]might[/] turn it around. Griffey could be had for next to nothing if you take on his contract, as is Thome.

If somebody else is available, sure I'll buy the notion we ought to make that move. Maybe Lowell, too.

The point is the Sox offense has struggled to support the pitching staff all season long. Come October they'll be facing nothing but the best pitchers the other team has to offer -- and the chilly weather will not be condusive to our sad sacks suddenly hitting their rhythm at the plate.

I would love another pitcher, but I think it is absolutely critical we get another stick. Getting Frank back is a very iffy proposition.
:cool:

Optipessimism
07-24-2005, 01:41 PM
The point is the Sox offense has struggled to support the pitching staff all season long. Come October they'll be facing nothing but the best pitchers the other team has to offer -- and the chilly weather will not be condusive to our sad sacks suddenly hitting their rhythm at the plate.
:cool:

I totally agree with that. When El Duque holds the Red Sox to two runs, you absolutely must back him up.

I think the need though is help in the middle of the order. We need a big bat that can take advantage of the opportunities that Konerko & Co. miss at.

Tragg
07-24-2005, 01:46 PM
Then go get a hitter, not take on Lowell's bad contract on a gamble that he might turn it around. Griffey could be had for next to nothing if you take on his contract, as is Thome.

On a $/production basis, picking up Griffey's contract would be a bargain compared to that $22/3 years we'd be stuck with Lowell for.

TornLabrum
07-24-2005, 01:48 PM
Because steroids are relevant in discussions of hitters, particularly those having bad years.

You don't know who was or who wasn't on steroids. And if they were on steroids, then the sudden absence of power isn't a mere "Bad year."
Therefore, there is a chance we'll be stuck with this player (who never was particularly good anyway) and zero production. So why get him?

What's wrong with getting a good hitter (especially as we'll pay a price as if he were a good hitter).

If you're not making the accusation, then don't imply it.

Tragg
07-24-2005, 01:49 PM
Well, he's hitting .274 since the beginning of June. That's in line with his career splits, which is why I was saying he may be back to producing as he has over the last several years.

You may be right.

But it's such a high risk, why should we give up value for that? ARen't there less risky propositions out there? If he's free (which he should be) and they pick up 1/2 of the contract, then maybe.

My feeling is that there's a reason that Fla has tried to unload this guy since last season.

Podzilla_40
07-24-2005, 01:49 PM
What other position players are on the market that fill our needs?

ilsox7
07-24-2005, 01:49 PM
On a $/production basis, picking up Griffey's contract would be a bargain compared to that $22/3 years we'd be stuck with Lowell for.

I can't even begin to tell you how much I'd LOVE to see Griffey on the Sox. It almost makes perfect sense...he can DH/Learn 1st base, provide a big time left-handed bat in the middle of our line-up, and get his coveted ring(s).

The dreamer part of me wants to think that Uncle Jerry would see the impact Griffey would have on this line-up for the next 2-3 years, thus significantly increasing our chances at a ring or rings, and splurge. The realist in me knows I should start drinking when I think this is a possibility and forget it ever came to my mind.

ilsox7
07-24-2005, 01:50 PM
You may be right.

But it's such a high risk, why should we give up value for that? ARen't there less risky propositions out there? If he's free (which he should be) and they pick up 1/2 of the contract, then maybe.

My feeling is that there's a reason that Fla has tried to unload this guy since last season.

I agree. Just trying to look at this from all angles and assess the chances of Lowell being a good addition if we in fact add him.

DaveIsHere
07-24-2005, 01:52 PM
Well I think that if we are considering Lowell, then either Frank is probably gone for the season or we may ship him elsewhere.


Any ideas on the chance we get Lowell and spin him elsewhere?

PaleHoseGeorge
07-24-2005, 01:52 PM
I totally agree with that. When El Duque holds the Red Sox to two runs, you absolutely must back him up.

I think the need though is help in the middle of the order. We need a big bat that can take advantage of the opportunities that Konerko & Co. miss at.

I've been complaining about the middle of our order since last December when Lee was traded. It was Konerko that Kenny was trying to move, but none of the other GM's was stupid enough to bite. They must visit WSI a lot.
:cool:

Yes, the problem is the middle of our lineup. Lowell has a track record for being just such a hitter. Let's try 'em out. We've got 10 weeks to evaluate whether he can make good on the opportunity to join a ballclub with great prospects in the postseason -- save for a pea-shooter offense.

If Lowell doesn't work out between now and September 30, so what? It's October and Joe Crede is our starting thirdbasemen again. Lowell is still better off the bench than Willie Harris! So where's the beef?
:?:

I really don't understand what the downside to this could possibly be. We're twiddling our thumbs for the next 10 weeks. Let's make the most of it getting ready for what we ought to be striving for: an October championship.

Tragg
07-24-2005, 01:57 PM
If Lowell doesn't work out between now and September 30, so what? It's October and Joe Crede is our starting thirdbasemen again. So where's the beef?
:?:

I really don't understand what the downside to this could possibly be. We're twiddling our thumbs for the next 10 weeks. Let's make the most of it getting ready for what we ought to be striving for: an October championship.
The downside is his $22 mill/3 year deal. He's no rent. We'd be stuck with that and him for 2 additional seasons. There must be other hitters out there without that huge anchor.

It's funny - no GM was stupid enough to take on Konerko and his deal; yet we should take on his clone, Mike Lowell, and his deal (and that's a clone IF Lowell completely reverts to form)?

PaleHoseGeorge
07-24-2005, 01:59 PM
The downside is his $22 mill/3 year deal. He's no rent. We'd be stuck with that and him for 2 additional seasons. There must be other hitters out there without that huge anchor.
And you can pretty much forget any improvement in the middle of the lineup in the next 2 seasons if we take on that contract. At best, we've got another Konerko situtation for 2 more years.

Presumably Florida is picking up part of his salary. And furthermore we're almost certain to dump Konerko's overpriced salary next winter.

Jeez... you think we're going to hoist a pennant for saving money?
:o:

Daver
07-24-2005, 02:01 PM
Presumably Florida is picking up part of his salary. And furthermore we're almost certain to dump Konerko's overpriced salary next winter.

Jeez... you think we're going to hoist a pennant for saving money?
:o:

The deal with Baltimore fell through because Florida will not pick up any of Lowell's contract.

ilsox7
07-24-2005, 02:02 PM
Presumably Florida is picking up part of his salary. And furthermore we're almost certain to dump Konerko's overpriced salary next winter.

Jeez... you think we're going to hoist a pennant for saving money?
:o:

I think the next week will tell us if Uncle Jerry really meant it when he said he wants a baseball championship more than anything. This is our best chance in a long, long time. If he is a smart business man, you'd hope he sees that spending an extra $10MM or so along with winning a World Series is a smart business move. I know I know, the Championship isn't guaranteed, but nothing in business is guranteed. It's a calculated risk with a HUGE payoff.

TaylorStSox
07-24-2005, 02:02 PM
Presumably Florida is picking up part of his salary. And furthermore we're almost certain to dump Konerko's overpriced salary next winter.

Jeez... you think we're going to hoist a pennant for saving money?
:o:

Florida won't pick up much. They're one of the cheaper organizations in the league.

Lowell's contract would tie up money that should go to extending Garland/AJ and finding a bat to man 1st.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-24-2005, 02:03 PM
The deal with Baltimore fell through because Florida will not pick up any of Lowell's contract.

Let's see how brave they are with the trade deadline looming.

:cool:

PaleHoseGeorge
07-24-2005, 02:06 PM
Florida won't pick up much. They're one of the cheaper organizations in the league.

Lowell's contract would tie up money that should go to extending Garland/AJ and finding a bat to man 1st.

Either Florida cuts a deal or they're stuck with Lowell AND HIS SALARY. That sounds like the sort of boneheaded loser's move the Sox would make, 1921-2000.
:cool:

First base is the easiest position in the game to fill. We're not going to miss Konerko or his salary.

CYGarland20
07-24-2005, 02:07 PM
I think the need though is help in the middle of the order. We need a big bat that can take advantage of the opportunities that Konerko & Co. miss at. I would love to get a LH bat to put in the 3rd spot, but i just don't see anyone out there that fits, or make sense. I would think about putting Gload in there and keep rotating Everett in the outfield for awhile and see if that works. Omar Vizquel is a possiblity, and would could move Iguchi in the 3rd spot, and rotate Uribe on the infield, or maybe get Dunn at put him at DH................ This is based on whether or not Frank can come back healthy. If not, I don't want to see Everett in the 3rd spot w/ his .257 avg and lowly .302 obp :o:

PaleHoseGeorge
07-24-2005, 02:13 PM
I would love to get a LH bat to put in the 3rd spot, but i just don't see anyone out there that fits, or make sense. I would think about putting Gload in there and keep rotating Everett in the outfield for awhile and see if that works. Omar Vizquel is a possiblity, and would could move Iguchi in the 3rd spot, and rotate Uribe on the infield, or maybe get Dunn at put him at DH................ This is based on whether or not Frank can come back healthy. If not, I don't want to see Everett in the 3rd spot w/ his .257 avg and lowly .302 obp :o:

Third base is NOT the place to get a left-handed ballplayer. Think about it.

You know who ought to be batting left-handed? Konerko! First base is where left-handers are at an advantage -- both in the field and at the plate.

:ozzie
"And you wonder why I can't field a lineup with pop off the left side?"

CYGarland20
07-24-2005, 02:16 PM
Third base is NOT the place to get a left-handed ballplayer. Think about it.

You know who ought to be batting left-handed? Konerko! First base is where left-handers are at an advantage -- both in the field and at the plate.

:ozzie
"And you wonder why I can't field a lineup with pop off the left side?" I'm not talking about 3b. I mean a LH hitter batting 3rd in the lineup, and no NOT Everett

Brian26
07-24-2005, 02:25 PM
Cincy's bringing up one of the premier 3B prospects in baseball. So, your idea sucks.

Lose the attitude for crying out loud, dude. We're all Sox fans here. No need to be so obnoxious.

The bigger reason Cincy wouldn't want Lowell is because they can't afford him.

The Dude
07-24-2005, 02:40 PM
:tomatoaward

This deal makes sense and actually has grown on me. PHG makes some good points about the upgrade of the bench and the long awaited Wee Willie demotion. Count me in :thumbsup:

UofCSoxFan
07-24-2005, 02:44 PM
Third base is NOT the place to get a left-handed ballplayer. Think about it.

Jerry still have Robin Ventura's phone number?

Frater Perdurabo
07-24-2005, 02:48 PM
Both George and Daver make convincing arguments and bring out the real issues.

Another thing we should consider is that right now Ozuna is Crede's backup at third base. :o:

I have much more faith in Lowell than Ozuna as the backup third baseman. Third base defense has been a key part of the Sox ground ball pitchers' success this year.

Sending Willie Harris back to Charlotte (hopefully to learn to play shortstop and learn to bunt) and keeping Ozuna away from third base alone is enough to tip me in favor of the deal as rumoured: Marte and McCarthy for Burnett and Lowell.

One question: Does Burnett possess the necessary control to be a successful closer in the postseason?

SABRSox
07-24-2005, 03:15 PM
Looks like Burnett did make his start today for the Marlins. I don't think we'll see anything about a trade happening today.

soxfan123
07-24-2005, 03:50 PM
On the sound clip during today's game, Ozzie expressed his relationship with Burnett by saying that he is a "good friend" with him and that he has one of the best arms he's ever seen. Now, with the risk of team chemistry at hand, this makes me feel very comfortable about the potential trade occurring. Any thoughts?

Frater Perdurabo
07-24-2005, 03:53 PM
I think Ozzie Guillen is a guy who would call anyone who doesn't badmouth him in the media a "friend." That's not necessarily a bad thing.

I'm much more interested in how much Burnett could benefit from having Don Cooper as Burnett's potential pitching coach, and how much the Sox could benefit from that potential relationship.

Erik The Red
07-24-2005, 04:06 PM
I think Ozzie Guillen is a guy who would call anyone who doesn't badmouth him in the media a "friend." That's not necessarily a bad thing.
Or it could be the fact that Ozzie was with the Marlins organization in 2003 and probably knows Burnett pretty well.

Frater Perdurabo
07-24-2005, 04:14 PM
Or it could be the fact that Ozzie was with the Marlins organization in 2003 and probably knows Burnett pretty well.

Yes, I know. I didn't think I had to state the obvious. :rolleyes:

Erik The Red
07-24-2005, 04:31 PM
Yes, I know. I didn't think I had to state the obvious. :rolleyes:
Well, the way you worded it, it seemed like you were saying that the only reason he calls him a friend is because Burnett doesn't badmouth him in the media. No need to be an ass about it.

Frater Perdurabo
07-24-2005, 04:47 PM
Well, the way you worded it, it seemed like you were saying that the only reason he calls him a friend is because Burnett doesn't badmouth him in the media. No need to be an ass about it.

Please don't take offense. I apologize if I came across as a jerk. I didn't mean to do so. :smile:

WSI is full of very intelligent Sox fans. I didn't think it was necessary to state that Ozzie was the third base coach in 2003 for the team for which Burnett currently pitches.

I just meant to say that Ozzie is such a "players' manager" and such a likeable guy to the guys in the clubhouse that it would require bad-mouthing him in the media (or something on that level) to get on his bad side.

Besides, what would one expect Ozzie to say when asked about a player that your GM is known to have been actively negotiating to acquire? Would one expect him to say, "Oh, Burnett's a jerk. I hope we don't get him." Of course Ozzie would call him a "friend."

Hypothetically, I get the feeling Ozzie would have similar things to say, if not necessarily use the word "friend," if a reporter had asked him to describe his reaction to the Sox being close to acquiring Jason Schmidt, Roger Clemens or even Kenny Rogers.

Again, I am sorry if I came across as a jerk in my reply. :smile:

Erik The Red
07-24-2005, 04:50 PM
Understood. :thumbsup:

Rocklive99
07-24-2005, 05:29 PM
Throw Mota in as well!

mcp5185
07-24-2005, 06:06 PM
Up until reading this thread I never even considered that Frank may not be healthy for the playoffs. Now that I think about it, I think we need to get a abt to put in the DH slot. Carl has not been good enough to start everyday, and I don't want Timo Perez as our first backup in the OF. I think Lowell would be a nice insurance policy for DH and 3B.

I would also be in favor of getting Dunn or Griffey to add to the middle of the lineup. I wish we could get a .300 hitter. So many guys on our team hit in the .250-.275 range. It would be nice to get a guy who could be counted on to get more hits.

I think AJ Burnett could potentially be a great addition. He has nasty stuff and I think would benefit from work with Don Cooper. If the deal is Burnett and Lowell for BMac and Marte, I say we should do it.

aMiTyViLL
07-24-2005, 06:11 PM
Id hate to pay for lowells contract! Throw in some money ;)

sthbndsox
07-24-2005, 06:16 PM
Even if the 2 teams agree, I'm still skeptical that this will get done. Kenny said he would only do this if he could sign Burnett, because he wasn't going to "trade young talent for a 60-game rental." Sources have said that Burnett will not sign with the White Sox. - All according to ChicagoSports.com

Edit: Sorry, here's the link, but you need a subscription. http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-050723soxside,1,7869217.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines

CHIsoxNation
07-24-2005, 06:18 PM
Burnett threw a little over 7 innings today and didn't give up an earned run, also had 4 Ks. Granted it was against that giants, but I'll take that any day.

soltrain21
07-24-2005, 06:23 PM
Even if the 2 teams agree, I'm still skeptical that this will get done. Kenny said he would only do this if he could sign Burnett, because he wasn't going to "trade young talent for a 60-game rental." Sources have said that Burnett will not sign with the White Sox. - All according to ChicagoSports.com

Edit: Sorry, here's the link, but you need a subscription. http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-050723soxside,1,7869217.story?coll=cs-whitesox-headlines



Just like Freddie wasn't going to sign with us? I highly doubt this move gets made unless the 72 hour window thing is part of it.

Jjav829
07-24-2005, 06:34 PM
Burnett threw a little over 7 innings today and didn't give up an earned run, also had 4 Ks. Granted it was against that giants, but I'll take that any day.

Screw that. He homered today. If we get him, maybe he can DH when he doesn't pitch. :D:

Edit: FWIW, Baseball Tonight just totally jacked my line. :mad:

Tragg
07-24-2005, 06:42 PM
Burnett threw a little over 7 innings today and didn't give up an earned run, also had 4 Ks. Granted it was against that giants, but I'll take that any day.

El D gave up 4 hits in 6.1 innings against far superior competition, with the only blip a HR to the game's best hitter. At least an equal performance.
We don't need to rent burnett.

Jjav829
07-24-2005, 06:46 PM
El D gave up 4 hits in 6.1 innings against far superior competition, with the only blip a HR to the game's best hitter. At least an equal performance.
We don't need to rent burnett.

You have to be joking. You're now comparing one start to make a case that one pitcher is equal to another?

Burnett - 3.48 ERA, 1.25 WHIP, 2.55 K/BB
Hernandez - 4.78 ERA, 1.57 WHIP, 1.37 K/BB

But I guess because their last starts were equal, they are equal pitchers. :?:

slimjim
07-24-2005, 06:52 PM
We don't need Burnett and DEFINATELY do not need Lowell. Kenny knows we can't waste money anymore on hitters who can't hit. It's all about the pitching now. I wouldn't be pissed if he got Burnett, but he should try to swindle Alex Gonzales out of them. Anyone know what it would take to get Gonzales on top of the Marte, McCarthey for Burnett trade?

gf2020
07-24-2005, 08:59 PM
You have to be joking. You're now comparing one start to make a case that one pitcher is equal to another?

Burnett - 3.48 ERA, 1.25 WHIP, 2.55 K/BB
Hernandez - 4.78 ERA, 1.57 WHIP, 1.37 K/BB

But I guess because their last starts were equal, they are equal pitchers. :?:

Anything you can do, I can do too...

Postseason...

Burnett - 4.16 ERA, 7-8
Hernandez - 3.59, 16-9

EDIT: Apparently, my statistics were fine except that Burnett's stats don't even exist.

Wow...:redface:

What can I say? I was betrayed by the Internet.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/6314/career_by_all_pitching_splits.html

Anyway, me stupid, me still prefer El Duque to Burnett.

beckett21
07-24-2005, 09:03 PM
Anything you can do, I can do too...

Postseason...

Burnett - 4.16 ERA, 7-8
Hernandez - 3.59, 16-9



I don't know where you got those stats, because AJ Burnett has no postseason experience. :?:

Chisox003
07-24-2005, 09:08 PM
Anything you can do, I can do too...

Postseason...

Burnett - 4.16 ERA, 7-8
Hernandez - 3.59, 16-9



Nice, just made an ass of yourself....Good work proving HIS point for him

Anyway, any news on this trade in the last few hours?

Im very curious to see how KW moves these guys around (Assuming there are moves to be made...) in the next week

We're getting close

Frater Perdurabo
07-24-2005, 09:30 PM
This may have been posted earlier, but if they got Burnett, that would give the Sox six guys who could start games for virtually any playoff team.

Until the end of the regular season, El Duque could be "rationed" with fewer starts to protect his health for the playoffs.

In the playoffs, Contreras and Burnett would move to the pen as middle relievers who potentially could go two or three innings as needed. Hermanson would pitch the ninth, Politte and/or Cotts the seventh/eighth and Burnett/Contreras the sixth/seventh.

That kind of reliability at the end of the game would mean the Sox starters really would only have to be counted on to pitch FIVE innings. As efficient as Garland and Buehrle are, that potentially would mean each could pitch THREE times in a seven-game series. In Game 7, Buehrle could start and Garland could close it out (or vice-versa), just like Randy Johnson closed out Game 7 for Curt Schilling for Arizona against the Yankees.

Also, because Vizcaino and Jenks would not be needed in the bullpen, the Sox would be able to open two roster spots for position players. That's where Harris could be useful as a late-inning pinch runner if Frank or Konerko got on base. Being able to substitute just to manufacture a run is possible because the Sox also would have Gload to play first.

Starters: Buehrle, Garland, Garcia, El Duque
Pen: Hermanson, Politte, Cotts, Burnett, Contreras
Lineup: Pods, Gooch, Frank, Konerko, Dye, AJ, Rowand, Crede, Uribe
Bench: Gload, Everett, Timo, Harris, Ozuna, Lowell, Widger

gosox3072
07-24-2005, 09:38 PM
This may have been posted earlier, but if they got Burnett, that would give the Sox six guys who could start games for virtually any playoff team.

Until the end of the regular season, El Duque could be "rationed" with fewer starts to protect his health for the playoffs.

In the playoffs, Contreras and Burnett would move to the pen as middle relievers who potentially could go two or three innings as needed. Hermanson would pitch the ninth, Politte and/or Cotts the seventh/eighth and Burnett/Contreras the sixth/seventh.

That kind of reliability at the end of the game would mean the Sox starters really would only have to be counted on to pitch FIVE innings. As efficient as Garland and Buehrle are, that potentially would mean each could pitch THREE times in a seven-game series. In Game 7, Buehrle could start and Garland could close it out (or vice-versa), just like Randy Johnson closed out Game 7 for Curt Schilling for Arizona against the Yankees.

Also, because Vizcaino and Jenks would not be needed in the bullpen, the Sox would be able to open two roster spots for position players. That's where Harris could be useful as a late-inning pinch runner if Frank or Konerko got on base. Being able to substitute just to manufacture a run is possible because the Sox also would have Gload to play first.

Starters: Buehrle, Garland, Garcia, El Duque
Pen: Hermanson, Politte, Cotts, Burnett, Contreras
Lineup: Pods, Gooch, Frank, Konerko, Dye, AJ, Rowand, Crede, Uribe
Bench: Gload, Everett, Timo, Harris, Ozuna, Lowell, Widger

And how exactly are you planning on losing vizciano?

ilsox7
07-24-2005, 09:43 PM
Starters: Buehrle, Garland, Garcia, El Duque
Pen: Hermanson, Politte, Cotts, Burnett, Contreras
Lineup: Pods, Gooch, Frank, Konerko, Dye, AJ, Rowand, Crede, Uribe
Bench: Gload, Everett, Timo, Harris, Ozuna, Lowell, Widger

It is completely unrealistic to go into the playoffs with only 9 pitchers on your roster.

HawkDJ
07-24-2005, 09:43 PM
I think ultimately when it comes down to it, the team we have right now is not capable of winning the World Series. Unless you believe we are, I don't see the benefit of standing pat. Burnett and Lowell both have tremendous upside and provide us with great versatility as was mentioned above. It's a chance you've got to take in my mind, especially if we can swing a deal for another reliever.

ilsox7
07-24-2005, 09:44 PM
I think ultimately when it comes down to it, the team we have right now is not capable of winning the World Series. Unless you believe we are, I don't see the benefit of standing pat. Burnett and Lowell both have tremendous upside and provide us with great versatility as was mentioned above. It's a chance you've got to take in my mind, especially if we can swing a deal for another reliever.

Just curious, but what has this team done (or not done) to show you they cannot win the World Series?

Banix12
07-24-2005, 09:45 PM
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet but I don't feel like leafing through 100+ posts.

Might I remind you that this is from Bruce Levine, the same guy who in preseason said Wes Helms would be a perfect backup shortstop?

I'll believe it when I see it.

Foulke You
07-24-2005, 10:13 PM
My turn to contribute to the 10,000,000 or so posts on this thread!:D:

There is nothing wrong with giving your team extra depth heading into the post season.

Lowell- A good bat who happens to be in a slump right now and could benefit being away from the long power alleys in Pro Player Stadium and into a hitters park like The Cell. I'm not too sure how his fielding is and what his role on the team would be but knowing Ozzie, he'd find his way into the lineup at least a couple times a week. Does anyone know if Lowell can play any other positions beside 3rd Base?

Also, does anyone else find it ironic that Lowell was the hottest name on the trade market a few years ago that every conteding team was lusting after (including the Cubs) and now the Marlins can't GIVE the guy away. I don't believe that Lowell suddenly became a bad player, he is just having an off year. Perhaps new coaches, new team, better hitter's park, and a winning atmosphere would snap him out of it. If not, you still have Crede to play 3B the majority of the time.

Burnett- I can't really add anything that hasn't already been said except there is nothing wrong with KW bolstering the pitching staff.

The yay/nay factor on this deal will end up being what we have to give up to get these players.

HawkDJ
07-24-2005, 10:15 PM
I don't know if this has been mentioned yet but I don't feel like leafing through 100+ posts.

Might I remind you that this is from Bruce Levine, the same guy who in preseason said Wes Helms would be a perfect backup shortstop?

I'll believe it when I see it.

Bruce's opinion is different from his scoop. I'm pretty sure Bruce has been pretty solid when it comes ot what the Sox are actually doing as opposed to what he thinks they should be doing.

Frater Perdurabo
07-24-2005, 10:20 PM
It is completely unrealistic to go into the playoffs with only 9 pitchers on your roster.

Under normal circumstances, with a normal pitching staff, I'd agree. But if six of the nine can go seven good innings on any given night, and three of the nine can go nine, that gives the team many more options.

In an algebraic formula, Contreras + Burnett > 2x(Vizcaino + Jenks)

Because Burnett and Contreras have starters' stuff and can throw multiple innings and get both RH and LH hitters out, they are far superior pitchers to Jenks and Vizcaino and give Ozzie much more flexibility.

ilsox7
07-24-2005, 10:24 PM
Under normal circumstances, with a normal pitching staff, I'd agree. But if six of the nine can go seven good innings on any given night, and three of the nine can go nine, that gives the team many more options.

In an algebraic formula, Contreras + Burnett > 2x(Vizcaino + Jenks)

Because Burnett and Contreras have starters' stuff and can throw multiple innings and get both RH and LH hitters out, they are far superior pitchers to Jenks and Vizcaino and give Ozzie much more flexibility.

I disagree b/c in this day and age, match-ups are often used. I would rather Ozzie have multiple, good options out of the pen than a deeper bench. It is an interesting idea and probly feasible 25 years ago, but not anymore.

Frater Perdurabo
07-24-2005, 10:54 PM
I disagree b/c in this day and age, match-ups are often used. I would rather Ozzie have multiple, good options out of the pen than a deeper bench. It is an interesting idea and probly feasible 25 years ago, but not anymore.

Then pen wouldn't be as short as you might think.

With that deep and talented of a starting staff as I've proposed, and with the starters only needing to go five innings, and with Buehrle and Garland potentially available to pitch three times in a seven-game series, El Duque might not even be needed to start a game. If so, he too could join the pen.

Buehrle starts Game 1 at home. (Burnett first from the pen.)
Garland starts Game 2 at home. (Contreras first from the pen.)
Garcia starts Game 3 on the road. (AJ)
Buehrle starts Game 4 on the road. (Jose)
If needed, and if Garland was pounded in Game 2, El Duque starts Game 5. Otherwise, Garland starts Game 5. (AJ)
If needed, Garcia (or Garland) could start Game 6 at home. (Jose)
If needed, Buehrle would start Game 7 at home. (Two among Garland, Garcia and El Duque would be available, plus AJ.)

ATXBMX
07-24-2005, 11:23 PM
Under normal circumstances, with a normal pitching staff, I'd agree. But if six of the nine can go seven good innings on any given night, and three of the nine can go nine, that gives the team many more options.

In an algebraic formula, Contreras + Burnett > 2x(Vizcaino + Jenks)

Because Burnett and Contreras have starters' stuff and can throw multiple innings and get both RH and LH hitters out, they are far superior pitchers to Jenks and Vizcaino and give Ozzie much more flexibility.

So...what happens if we go extra innings? I understand what you're proposing, but with only 9 pitchers there's less room for error. Any guy in the rotation or bullpen is capable of being ineffective. We play a lot of close games and extra innings are a real possibility. I think we need arms more than we need Willie Harris.

Banix12
07-25-2005, 12:20 AM
Bruce's opinion is different from his scoop. I'm pretty sure Bruce has been pretty solid when it comes ot what the Sox are actually doing as opposed to what he thinks they should be doing.
That was a scoop I was referring to. It never came to fruition. Wes Helms for Willie Harris if I recall

DaleJRFan
07-25-2005, 12:27 AM
I am probably just beating a dead horse here, but... IF the Sox wind up with Burnett, would it make sense to put El Duque in the Pen to keep his arm ready for the playoffs?? It seems like El Duque throws awesome for a while and wears down, goes on the DL for a while, then comes back to throw awesome again. We've seen it 3 times this season.

I hate the feeling I have right now.... The last two outings by the Cubans have been absolutely amazing, against one of the best offenses in MLB. I fear one of two things will happen:

KW trades the farm for a "front line starter" like Burnett and he is no better than the Cubans.

KW sticks with what he's got, and the Cubans prove the last two outings were smoke and mirrors.

Someone tell me I'm crazy....

Vernam
07-25-2005, 12:33 AM
Anyway, any news on this trade in the last few hours?New story by Rogers titled "Cotts has right stuff: Sox left-hander's emergence makes Marte expendable" claims that the deal may now be Contreras, Marte and McCarthy for Burnett. See http://tinyurl.com/7pjgp. No mention of Lowell. I'm thinking we have to include Jose to avoid having to take Lowell. Rogers also expresses surprise that the Marlins haven't asked for Cotts instead of Marte. Gee, thanks for that, Phil.

BBTN also claimed the Sox are out front in the Burnett race.

VC

patbooyah
07-25-2005, 12:39 AM
New story by Rogers titled "Cotts has right stuff: Sox left-hander's emergence makes Marte expendable" claims that the deal may now be Contreras, Marte and McCarthy for Burnett. See http://tinyurl.com/7pjgp. No mention of Lowell. I'm thinking we have to include Jose to avoid having to take Lowell. Rogers also expresses surprise that the Marlins haven't asked for Cotts instead of Marte. Gee, thanks for that, Phil.

BBTN also claimed the Sox are out front in the Burnett race.

VC

how could we not be in front with that ridiculous offer. please don't let this happen.

Vernam
07-25-2005, 01:10 AM
how could we not be in front with that ridiculous offer. please don't let this happen. Just to clarify, I don't think Rogers was claiming KW has offered Conteras, Marte and McCarthy, just that it could take all three due to Burnett's studly performance on Sunday. Whether due to indecision or smart strategy, the Marlins clearly raised his value by resisting earlier offers.

Melton said today that he asked five MLB scouts whether Burnett's all he's supposed to be, and they said yes, make the deal.

Previous reports said KW was supposedly going to get 72 hours to sign him, but I haven't heard that lately. Seems pretty unlikely as the deadline nears.

VC

patbooyah
07-25-2005, 01:11 AM
Just to clarify, I don't think Rogers was claiming KW has offered Conteras, Marte and McCarthy, just that it could take all three due to Burnett's studly performance on Sunday.

VC

i hear ya. thanks. but still. i have faith in K Dubs. Faith that he wouldn't do this to me.

CYGarland20
07-25-2005, 01:58 AM
i hear ya. thanks. but still. i have faith in K Dubs. Faith that he wouldn't do this to me. Relax, with Burnett in the rotation we obviously don't need Contreras. Marte is expendable due to the emergence of Cotts as a legitimate stud LH reliever. McCarthy, while he did impress in spring training, is at least another year or 2 from becoming a legit ML starter, and our rotation looks set for the next few years anyway. Also we have quite a few solid pitching prospects in the minors, and they will be ready by the time we really need them, like Broadway, Liotta, Tracey and Gio Gonzalez, who will be better than McCarthy if he stays healthy.............. All these guys are expendable, I agree that might be giving up too much, i was hoping McCarthy/Contreras-Marte would do it, hopefully that still might be the case. But if we do give up that much i wouldn't worry, plus I'm sure there will be another deal or 2 left to be made by KW............Burnett has the ability to be a legit #1 type starter who can shut down anybody's offense, I think we've seen the best of what JC has to offer.

DaleJRFan
07-25-2005, 02:03 AM
....um, I've said this before, but Jose Contreras has a no-trade clause.

Flight #24
07-25-2005, 08:58 AM
Just to clarify, I don't think Rogers was claiming KW has offered Conteras, Marte and McCarthy, just that it could take all three due to Burnett's studly performance on Sunday. Whether due to indecision or smart strategy, the Marlins clearly raised his value by resisting earlier offers.



IIRC, that mantion in the article also referenced an "expanded deal". I assume that refers to an earlier rumor that the deal was McCarthy+Contreras+Marte for Burnett+Mota+Lowell+$$$.

Also, I've seen some comments that Lowell is owed $22mil. The primary concern should be his salary for 06 & 07, since it's a pretty good bet that any bump for 05 is going to be OK with JR. Per MLB4U's salary database, he'll be owed $18mil for the 2 years. That tells me that if you can get FLA to pay $6mil of his salary and make him a $6mil/yr player, you basically replace Carl with Lowell in '06. Sure there's higher risk, but there's also higher reward, and you only do the deal if KW & co don't think he's just plain done. Then Konerko's $$$ go to Burnett, and you can focus an anticipated pay bump on keeping Garland, or, you can probably deal Contreras and add his salary to Jon's and keep things relatively flat.

103 screwball
07-25-2005, 11:45 AM
I'm intrigued by Lowell. Is anyone really familiar with Florida who may be able to me if Lowell looks like a shrinky dink this year? I'm not accusing anyone of anything. The fact is, baseball tightened up it's steroid policy and it would be prudent to at least consider the possibility that there might be a link to anyone with a sudden drop off in performance. Ozzie knows Lowell and KW is seemed to be considering potential steroid use in his acquisitions before other GM's. If KW and Ozzie decide to bring him here I trust their judgment.

What if the Sox get him as a throw in with some cash and he breaks out of the slump? Oh yea! However, if (IF!) he is a shrinky dink, no thanks.

soltrain21
07-25-2005, 11:52 AM
....um, I've said this before, but Jose Contreras has a no-trade clause.



Pretty sure he waived it so he could come here.

Flight #24
07-25-2005, 11:53 AM
I'm intrigued by Lowell. Is anyone really familiar with Florida who may be able to me if Lowell looks like a shrinky dink this year? I'm not accusing anyone of anything. The fact is, baseball tightened up it's steroid policy and it would be prudent to at least consider the possibility that there might be a link to anyone with a sudden drop off in performance. Ozzie knows Lowell and KW is seemed to be considering potential steroid use in his acquisitions before other GM's. If KW and Ozzie decide to bring him here I trust their judgment.

What if the Sox get him as a throw in with some cash and he breaks out of the slump? Oh yea! However, if (IF!) he is a shrinky dink, no thanks.

FWIW, here's Lowell's monthlyl splits:

April: .198 / .233 / .346
May: .202 / .263 / .310
June: .250 / .310 / .348
July: .294 / .338 /.471

By no means is he worth his deal, but he's showing signs of coming out of his slump. His 3-year averages also beat out Paulie in everything except raw HRs (and he's not exactly horrible there, plus moving from Pro Player to USCF would even things out a lot). And he plays a good 3B, so he'd likely play a good 1B and/or help you back up or replace Crede.

Jerome
07-25-2005, 12:14 PM
Please no Mike Lowell. We have Joe Crede, who is sooooo much cheaper. We can survive with Crede and his small salary until Fields is ready. I personally would be sorry to see McCarthy go for a rent-a-pitcher, b/c Burnett is not worth to us the money he will command. The Yankees or some other team will probably way overpay for him next winter.