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View Full Version : Rule question: run scores during 3rd out?


downstairs
07-22-2005, 08:59 AM
I've tried to look this up, but can't get a definitive answer (its a lot of work looking through the MLB rulebook online...)

I know its simple, but I'd like to know the exact rule. Its one of those things I never quite understood.

Take the play in last night's Red Sox game, in the 7th. Double play right to third. Runner scores before the third out is called, thus it counts.

But often on, for example, bases loaded double plays second to first (to end the inning), the run doesn't count.

Is this because the run didn't cross home before the 3rd out at first was called?

Would it have counted in this situation if, say it was a very fast runner and he was running on the pitch, and scored in time?

downstairs
07-22-2005, 09:01 AM
Also... a caveat...

If my last example is true, and I know this could be a silly strategy in reality... but... could you then successfully pull off a suicide squeeze bunt even with two outs?

Clembasbal
07-22-2005, 09:04 AM
Because on the double play, the batter is a force out at first.

In last night's game Ortiz was not a force out at third.

downstairs
07-22-2005, 09:09 AM
Because on the double play, the batter is a force out at first.

In last night's game Ortiz was not a force out at third.

So if there is a force out to end the double play, the run does not count? Even if it scores before the force out is applied?

That's where I am confused.

Flight #24
07-22-2005, 09:14 AM
So if there is a force out to end the double play, the run does not count? Even if it scores before the force out is applied?

That's where I am confused.

Correct. A 3d out on a force out does not enable a run to score, regardless of timing. On a 3d out on a "non-force-out", it depends on whether the run scored prior to the out or not.

downstairs
07-22-2005, 09:15 AM
Correct. A 3d out on a force out does not enable a run to score, regardless of timing. On a 3d out on a "non-force-out", it depends on whether the run scored prior to the out or not.


Cool. Thanks Clembasbal and Flight!

UofCSoxFan
07-22-2005, 10:59 AM
To add to the points already made, if the third out is a force out where another runner does not tag up in time...say at first...but the runner from third tags up and scores before the runner from first is out...THE RUN COUNTS...this is a play that always confused me, but for some reason the out on failure to tag up properly is not treated like a groundball force out.

Also interesting side note...a few years ago in the high school summer baseball state tournament the game before us ended with a two out, bases loaded single to break the tie. The runner from second never touched second base but instead stopped a few feet short to celebrate with his teammates. The umpires stayed on the field for about a minute (whereas they usually run off after the game is over), but the defensive team did not notice any of this. Had they retrieved the ball from the outfield and touched second, the run would not have counted as there was a force out at second. Coincidentally, we faced Providence and Sox Prospect Kris Honel in our game that followed.

scottjanssens
07-22-2005, 11:11 AM
but for some reason the out on failure to tag up properly is not treated like a groundball force out.

Because it's not a ground ball force out.

UofCSoxFan
07-22-2005, 11:42 AM
Cute...I meant that there was a distinction between a groundball force out and a "tagging up" force out....that the two forces were treated differently.

A three game losing streak really puts people on edge.

Hokiesox
07-22-2005, 12:14 PM
This happens all the time in Little League. But it's a little different.

It goes like this:

Runner on 1st-3rd, batter hits weak grounder to 1st base. 1st baseman steps on first, throws to second. Now...since the batter has been put out already, that runner going to second is NO LONGER a force out, so he must be tagged, or he's safe. In younger leagues, with coaches who have no idea, the runner going to second is always safe because the kid has no idea he has to tag the runner. In older leagues, high school and beyond, the runner gets tagged out, but the umpires must figure out if the guy from 3rd scored before the runner on second was tagged, because that run counts due to the runner FROM 1st base not being forced to second.

slavko
07-22-2005, 03:04 PM
To add to the points already made, if the third out is a force out where another runner does not tag up in time...say at first...but the runner from third tags up and scores before the runner from first is out...THE RUN COUNTS...this is a play that always confused me, but for some reason the out on failure to tag up properly is not treated like a groundball force out.

Also interesting side note...a few years ago in the high school summer baseball state tournament the game before us ended with a two out, bases loaded single to break the tie. The runner from second {he means first} never touched second base but instead stopped a few feet short to celebrate with his teammates. The umpires stayed on the field for about a minute (whereas they usually run off after the game is over), but the defensive team did not notice any of this. Had they retrieved the ball from the outfield and touched second, the run would not have counted as there was a force out at second. Coincidentally, we faced Providence and Sox Prospect Kris Honel in our game that followed.

You just described the "Fred Merkel of the Giants Bonehead Play" that led to a Cubs pennant about a hundred years ago.

scottjanssens
07-22-2005, 03:33 PM
Cute...I meant that there was a distinction between a groundball force out and a "tagging up" force out....that the two forces were treated differently.

A three game losing streak really puts people on edge.

I'm not on edge. Of course the two are treated differnetly. They're fundamentally different. The more usual force out hinges upon the batter while the tagging up force out hinges upon the runner.

I've never liked the fact that getting doubled up is called a force out because it's completely different than the "normal" force out. The problem lies in the fact that the sole determining factor of whether an out is a force out or not is whether or not a tag is needed. This is generally fine except for this particular instance. Yes this is semantics and no I don't give as much a crap about it is I probably sound like do (I'm bored here). Unfortunately there's no better solution. One could make the distinction between forward force out and reverse force out, but that's cumbersome and just plain silly. Much like this post.

StillMissOzzie
07-22-2005, 05:00 PM
You just described the "Fred Merkel of the Giants Bonehead Play" that led to a Cubs pennant about a hundred years ago.

A/K/A "Merkel's Boner", although that phrase carries a slightly different meaning these days...:cool:

Doesn't it figure that the sCrUBS winning a pennant depended on someone else's screwup?

And I suppose it's been well-beaten into the ground by now, but IIRC, the rulebook uses the terms "timing play" and "force play", where a timing play is dependent upon a tag, and thus you need to be aware of whether the runner scores before the 3rd out is recorded, and on a force play, the runner could travel at the speed of light, but if a force play, or even a force double play records the 3rd out, no score.

SMO
:gulp:

Clembasbal
07-22-2005, 05:15 PM
Cool. Thanks Clembasbal and Flight!

You are welcome. That is the first thank you I ever got on this board.

(Probably because all of my comments are stupid and nobody pays attention to them!:D:)

I want Mags back
07-23-2005, 12:21 PM
You just described the "Fred Merkel of the Giants Bonehead Play" that led to a Cubs pennant about a hundred years ago.

I read that in my brothers SI for Kids wacky Sports facts book. The fans raided on to the field and the guy going to first ran away.