PDA

View Full Version : Joe Crede: time to let the people decide


Baby Fisk
07-22-2005, 09:19 AM
Joe Crede is driving me nuts. One day he's the hero, another day he's the goat. Wildly unpredictable and inconsistent. Okay WSI: have your say!

Tekijawa
07-22-2005, 09:29 AM
Man I didn't see this poll coming at all today!

Baby Fisk
07-22-2005, 09:31 AM
Man I didn't see this poll coming at all today!
This, from Obscure Thread Master Tekijawa. :wink:

Hangar18
07-22-2005, 09:33 AM
Sadly, he didnt help last nite, striking out in a very KEY situation
with men on per usual. He then DOUBLES to tie the game....helps.
but badluck drops the ball....... Vizcaino shouldnt have been pitching though .....

TornLabrum
07-22-2005, 09:35 AM
My vote was TPS.

Eddie Gaedel
07-22-2005, 09:39 AM
Sadly, he didnt help last nite, striking out in a very KEY situation
with men on per usual. He then DOUBLES to tie the game....helps.
but badluck drops the ball....... Vizcaino shouldnt have been pitching though .....

right. crede didn't throw that meatball to ramirez...

BeviBall!
07-22-2005, 09:41 AM
He's fine... that pop up was a much harder play than people think. You try running over to the tarp and then coming back trying not to trip over the camera wells, dugout and such.

Viz is much more to blame for giving in the very next pitch.

TornLabrum
07-22-2005, 09:43 AM
He's fine... that pop up was a much harder play than people think. You try running over to the tarp and then coming back trying not to trip over the camera wells, dugout and such.

Viz is much more to blame for giving in the very next pitch.

I'm going to repeat what I've said twice before: The most significant thing to me about the game was Buehrle's inability to get the first batter out in five of the seven innings he pitched. That'll come back and kill you, and it did.

BeviBall!
07-22-2005, 09:46 AM
I'm going to repeat what I've said twice before: The most significant thing to me about the game was Buehrle's inability to get the first batter out in five of the seven innings he pitched. That'll come back and kill you, and it did.

There were many low points last night. MB was not sharp, Rowand and Gooch were not sharp, PK and the Pop Ups were not sharp, Viz... what new?

Yeah, you let Boston dictate the offensive flow and you're going to lose more often than not. Let's just hope the Sox are over the mighty Red Sox Nation mystique and play their game.

Frater Perdurabo
07-22-2005, 09:47 AM
I voted to keep him. I'm not an official member of Crede's Crew but I do think he gets a bad rap. I think the #8 hitter who plays Gold Glove-caliber defense (last night being a rare exception) at the hot corner is among the least of the Sox worries.

I choose to believe his long swing has a product of living with discomfort caused by his disk problem. (Admittedly I have little upon which to base this, other than my own experience as an invincible 20-something male who ignored symptoms of a developing health problem for years because I didn't see the slow erosion in my quality of life until the pain became severe enough to send me to the hospital.)

I can see how experiencing discomfort or pain would cause Crede - consciously or unconsciously - to adjust his swing mechanics away from using his whole body and toward relying too much on his arms. For years many of us have wondered why Crede so often has such a long swing, when he has proven he's capable of using a much shorter swing and gotten great results from it. For example, on Saturday July 24, 2004, against Detroit at the Cell, Crede hit a game-tying opposite field two-run double in the seventh inning, then won it with a walkoff homer in the bottom of the ninth. On the postgame interview, he told Hawk that he deliberately shortened his swing and went the other way to hit the two-run double. I think the disk problem is the explanation many of us have sought.

Consequently, I also choose to believe that Crede's new core-strengthening exercise regimen likely will pay dividends down the road. As he strengthens his back, the pain and discomfort gradually should subside to the point that he can start to use his whole body to swing and rely less on his arms to generate power. His swing should shorten and he should be able to turn on the ball much more quickly and nimbly. I think he'll be more able to hit to all fields for decent power. I think he's batting average will increase without losing much power. And I think he'll continue to play great defense.

Will he be the next Scott Rolen or Robin Ventura? No. (He does seem to have something approaching Robin's penchant for late-inning heroics, however.) However, I think the Sox can win a World Series with him as the starting third baseman, and I think he'll become a decent #5 or #6 hitter with a .275-.280 AVG and 30 homers in 2006 if these core-strengthening exercises work.

Hangar18
07-22-2005, 09:59 AM
Good points everyone. We played a very ugly game last nite ......UGLY.
We played like we were ROOKIES. There were more mental mistakes in that
one game than ive seen all year..... not to mention lots of bad luck.
YES, too many lead off redsox getting on, MB was living on the edge.
Who would think Iguchi cant come up with 2 balls in the infield?
MB made a crucial error in that inning himself, FAILING to backup at home....
when AJ missed that play, ball rolled to the backstop and runner trotted to 3rd

Sxy Mofo
07-22-2005, 10:22 AM
if i can be a little too positive (homeristic) which i usually am not... I prefer realistic optimism as a life path... anyway:

[too positive homerism]
I think these types of games will help the sox down the road, (yes, even the losses). Meaning they play in the playoff type atomosphere, and see that they came up short in that situation. In 2000, they didn't play that many playoff type atomosphere games, not the nail biters that came down to defense in late innings. But these are the types of games that you see in the playoffs. And getting used to that type, whether winning or losing, and seeing shortcomings (and strengths) in these situations may serve as an advantage down the road.
[/too positive homerism]

Tragg
07-22-2005, 10:27 AM
For every poll on Crede, there should be a poll on AJ (whose hitting is no better) and perhaps Uribe (whose hitting is decidedly worse, although you can't generally expect much hitting from a SS).
Defense has been extremely important to this team - it has helped the pitching immensely. Don't mess with it right now.

Baby Fisk
07-22-2005, 10:30 AM
if i can be a little too positive (homeristic) which i usually am not... I prefer realistic optimism as a life path... anyway:

[too positive homerism]
I think these types of games will help the sox down the road, (yes, even the losses). Meaning they play in the playoff type atomosphere, and see that they came up short in that situation. In 2000, they didn't play that many playoff type atomosphere games, not the nail biters that came down to defense in late innings. But these are the types of games that you see in the playoffs. And getting used to that type, whether winning or losing, and seeing shortcomings (and strengths) in these situations may serve as an advantage down the road.
[/too positive homerism]
This is hardly "too positive", in fact it's good that you posted this. A good perspective to consider. If that had been the 9th inning of ALCS Game 7, several WSIers would be in the hospital this morning. :thud:

White Sox Randy
07-22-2005, 10:31 AM
Joe Crede would be as good as Mike Lowell. Well, I was almost right - he's better than Mike Lowell.

Crede is still onlt 27 and getting better. He is a clutch player. The guy hadn't made an error in almost 50 games. And, he's playing with a bad back.

There are not many 3rd basemen in baseball that are clearly better all-around than Crede and almost none of them are available. Besides Crede makes so little money, he is almost free. Are Chavez 15 more rbi's worth 11 million dollars more ?

voodoochile
07-22-2005, 10:33 AM
I voted "this poll sucks" because there wasn't a decent middle option. He's not a champ but he definitely isn't a chump and I don't think he's a chimp. I got confused so I went with my standard reply...

ode to veeck
07-22-2005, 10:34 AM
The Poll's a good idea, but poorly constructed, as there's only one purely positive response, hence you're losing some of the data draining out the "pole sucks" hole on top of hard to interpret the other results in summary

balke
07-22-2005, 10:36 AM
How many people are going to hit that RBI double gapper against Schilling when he's throwing 93 M.P.H. heat? Joe's been a completely different player as of late, and had some unbelievably clutch hits.

Sxy Mofo
07-22-2005, 10:39 AM
This is hardly "too positive", in fact it's good that you posted this. A good perspective to consider. If that had been the 9th inning of ALCS Game 7, several WSIers would be in the hospital this morning. :thud:


I'd be in tears. Especially after the pop-up drop. But, i definitely think it's good they get used to these type of games (win or lose).

I dont' think it's a myth in sports to talk about teams that have "playoff experience". I really do believe it's important. Just in terms of not letting the pressure throw off your play. And the bottom line is most of these guys don't have that playoff experience. So, to get them in more games where the pressure is there and where that one semi-difficult pop-up becomes an out instead of a drop.

fquaye149
07-22-2005, 10:40 AM
My vote was TPS.

http://lygo.com/ly/wg/e/ss2/KingHill/kinghill19.jpg
"yup..."

skottyj242
07-22-2005, 10:41 AM
How many people are going to hit that RBI double gapper against Schilling when he's throwing 93 M.P.H. heat? Joe's been a completely different player as of late, and had some unbelievably clutch hits.

It's gotta be the sideburns.

Sxy Mofo
07-22-2005, 10:44 AM
There are not many 3rd basemen in baseball that are clearly better all-around than Crede and almost none of them are available. Besides Crede makes so little money, he is almost free. Are Chavez 15 more rbi's worth 11 million dollars more ?


Of course. You could say spend that money on more pitching, but pitching is extremely overrated. The sox switched to a pitching dominated attack and now look, they lost 3 games in a row.


Look, I'm a full-fledged WSI member. I used teal. Aren't you guys proud? I did this because even though this is completely obviously sarcastic, I don't want to have to explain myself to the one person who doesn't get it.

Sxy Mofo
07-22-2005, 10:45 AM
How many people are going to hit that RBI double gapper against Schilling when he's throwing 93 M.P.H. heat? Joe's been a completely different player as of late, and had some unbelievably clutch hits.


I just wish sometime he'd choke up and use a shorter swing, but how much has that been beaten to death around here? I think he could hit .20 to .30 points higher doing that, but would lose a few home runs.

kevingrt
07-22-2005, 10:51 AM
Someone posted a cool stat yesterday that he's batting like .270+ in in every month except May where he batted like .150. Oh well, this kid is too good a 3B to get rid of him. True he's made a couple mistakes as of recently most notably when Contreras was pitching and the Manny play, but it's two times. If we had say Jose Valentin at 3B, he'd already have like 20 errors.

I would say keep him but I voted TPS.

LVSoxFan
07-22-2005, 10:51 AM
Oh, please. I knew this was coming. For all the unbelievable plays Crede's made at third, he drops one--a total fluke--and now we're gonna freakin' trade him? C'mon!

There was plenty everybody did to lose the game last night:

-Iguchi's two errors
-Our maddening habit of stranding men on base (I'm thinkin' Konerko's popout with two men on)
-Mark didn't exactly have great stuff last night, pitching-wise
-And as somebody pointed out, it wasn't Crede who served up that homer to Martinez

Speaking of which, why wasn't Hermanson brought in to close out the 9th? Vizcaino's been good lately, but really: isn't he in danger of getting rusty?

HERE'S THE GOOD NEWS, PEOPLE: as sloppy as we were last night, we hit three home runs, and we hung in there until the bitter end with the World Series Champions. I'm really not that disappointed. I hate to lose, but this loss I can take just fine.

tsamdog
07-22-2005, 10:56 AM
Joe Crede is driving me nuts. One day he's the hero, another day he's the goat. Wildly unpredictable and inconsistent. Okay WSI: have your say!

Hell....one day to the next?...How about 15 minutes!? That was one of the quickest penthouse to outhouse falls in a while.

I am choosing to focus on his at bat against Schilling.....stellar. The ball that he dropped, although referred to as a 'flashy' attempt (Hawk & DJ), was not as easy as it appeared, but without question should have been caught. I don't think that we will see that again for a long while.

There has not been a lot of Crede love in this site lately, and I was certain that today (or last night) would bring a number of disgruntled posters out. Was I pissed, hell yeah! I liken it to the Bartman scenario though.....good pitchers pitch over errors. Joe did not throw the cookie to Manny.......nor did he commit the other two errors (and the ball that Aaron normally would get to). Too many unusual things happenned last night to dwell on just one event.

Once again, my thought is who would be an alternative to Joe? ....Ozuna? Lowell?.....I don' think so.

ChiSoxPatF
07-22-2005, 10:57 AM
For every poll on Crede, there should be a poll on AJ (whose hitting is no better) and perhaps Uribe (whose hitting is decidedly worse, although you can't generally expect much hitting from a SS).
Defense has been extremely important to this team - it has helped the pitching immensely. Don't mess with it right now.

Exactly. Simply because we thought Crede was going to be a .320 hitter with 30 homers perennially when he was a rookie doesn't diminish what he has done. He's never going to be Rolen but he's one heck of a #8 hitter with a great glove and relatively cheap.

As poorly as Crede performs sometimes there may only be a half-dozen 3B that are better than him when you consider all aspects of the game and we probably have one of the best "bangs for your buck" at third.

harwar
07-22-2005, 11:15 AM
Crede did a lot of things wrong trying to catch that popup,but he didn't try and make the "sweep" catch as some have said.
That ball came twisting back toward the infield while Joe had his eye off of it for a second.I've only played ball in school but i've had that happen to me.
I for one am glad to have the guy.
Also,the White sox started hitting road bumps in the tigers series and we are struggling a bit right now.
They didn't choke,its just bad timing.
It came at a bad time as so much attention is paid to this series.
I think that they will muddle through this rough spot and then get back on track and start taking advantage of other teams mistakes again instead of the other way around.

scottjanssens
07-22-2005, 11:26 AM
As poorly as Crede performs sometimes there may only be a half-dozen 3B that are better than him when you consider all aspects of the game and we probably have one of the best "bangs for your buck" at third.

I'm not a Crede hater but I think any argument that brings salary into it is inherently weak. I agree with what you're saying but the salary argument implies that he can't be justified with his performance alone.

At any rate I've now paid for 1% of Crede's salary. That a lot of bucks. Wouldn't mind a little more bang.

JermaineDye05
07-22-2005, 11:34 AM
call me superstitious but im blaming that whole error by crede on all the media that keept mentioning he had a 48 gm erroless streak

scottjanssens
07-22-2005, 11:46 AM
call me superstitious but im blaming that whole error by crede on all the media that keept mentioning he had a 48 gm erroless streak

On the scoreboard early in the game they mentioned A.J. hadn't had an error in a long time. Last night was easily the worst game since that game in Oakland. Very uncharacteristic of the team.

hawkjt
07-22-2005, 01:46 PM
Crede has hit .275 in June and .282 in July. Noticed that Randa is hitting .230 with 0 hrs and 3 rbis in 17 games in July. OBA for randa in july is .270. Slugging is .362 for July. Not exactly great #'s that inspire to give away prospects.

Fake Chet Lemon
07-22-2005, 02:25 PM
A guy at work just took a picture of Crede dropping the ball and inserted Bartman reaching out from the stands. It's funny as Hell. It's the first time I've smiled since the bottom of the 8th yesterday. But he did it on a copier, any geeks out there up to the task electronically?

maurice
07-22-2005, 02:50 PM
Crede has hit .275 in June and .282 in July. Noticed that Randa is hitting .230 with 0 hrs and 3 rbis in 17 games in July.

Unfortunately, the whole season counts.

Crede in July (a good month): .282 AVE, .300 OBP, .538 SLG
Randa over the entire season: .284 AVE, .353 OBP, .474 SLG

Crede career: .254 AVE, .303 OBP, .435 SLG
Randa carer: .286 AVE, .342 OBP, .428 SLG

Any argument based on the premise that Crede is a good hitter is doomed to fail. His best attributes are his glove, his salary, and his occasional clutch hit (.303 AVE w/ RiSP this season).

rookieroy
07-22-2005, 04:51 PM
For every poll on Crede, there should be a poll on AJ (whose hitting is no better) and perhaps Uribe (whose hitting is decidedly worse, although you can't generally expect much hitting from a SS).
Defense has been extremely important to this team - it has helped the pitching immensely. Don't mess with it right now.

Amen and well said! Just look at the comparisons/numbers of Crede vs. AJ/Uribe and you will see that Crede has been the better hitter. All three are decent in the field.

Can we please send all threads regarding Crede bashing to the Roadhouse just like what is done with attendence threads? :(:

SoxSpeed22
07-22-2005, 06:09 PM
Last night was easily the worst game since that game in Oakland.Which one? 'Cuz I can think of at least 3. Even though Crede is important to our success, I keep saying that trading for another third baseman wouldn't hurt. Maybe most of his home runs and RBIs would actually count. If it was Pablo Ozuna who dropped that one, we would be rippin' on him endlessly rather than "letting the people decide." Besides, you give Manny Ramirez a second chance that's your death warrant right there. Once that ball hit the ground, I knew that Ramirez was gonna hit the next one out. Everyone who knew that was gonna happen, admit it.
EDIT: David Bell from the Phillies is one. Alex Cintron also comes to mind. Russel Branyan or Wes Helms from Milwaukee.

Sxy Mofo
07-22-2005, 06:13 PM
Even though Crede is important to our success, I keep saying that trading for another third baseman wouldn't hurt.

My general feeling on this issue is, "who?" and "how much?" I can deal with crede's mediocre average and slumps if it means using the money for a pitcher.

Who's the guy everyone wanted, Chavez... I'd rather have a lower batting average, lower home runs and good defense and use the extra 10 mil (or whatever the contract difference is) on a pitcher. But that's me

SoxSpeed22
07-22-2005, 06:20 PM
My general feeling on this issue is, "who?" and "how much?" I can deal with crede's mediocre average and slumps if it means using the money for a pitcher. I put some suggestions on my previous post.

Sxy Mofo
07-22-2005, 06:22 PM
I suppose i could go look at all their stats, but... I don't really want to. The only one i really know much about is branyan and I remember him being a strikeout or home run kind of guy.

Crede_For_Me
07-22-2005, 07:02 PM
Crede is the best fielding 3rd baseman in the leauge and he also is a good homerun and rbi hitter his Average will come, and also stats arent everything.

patbooyah
07-22-2005, 07:16 PM
Crede is the best fielding 3rd baseman in the leauge and he also is a good homerun and rbi hitter his Average will come, and also stats arent everything.

i would take more stock in what you're saying if you weren't from boston. i imagine there are a lot of people in boston that are happy with crede today.

Taliesinrk
07-22-2005, 07:27 PM
Amen and well said! Just look at the comparisons/numbers of Crede vs. AJ/Uribe and you will see that Crede has been the better hitter. All three are decent in the field.

Can we please send all threads regarding Crede bashing to the Roadhouse just like what is done with attendence threads? :(:

I disagree... maybe the uribe comparison I'll give you.. but there's no way that you can compare Crede's D to what AJ has done with the pitching staff this year... Yeah, I think Crede gets a bad rap and he's got a good glove.. but I just think at this point that AJ's much more important to the teams success than you're giving him credit for.. even if he's been slumping at the plate.. the Sox havent had a good offensive catcher in a long long time (except the Charles Johnson rental).. none of them have done what AJ has done with the staff this year..

RallyBowl
07-22-2005, 07:41 PM
Most people will hopefully be singing the comets praises come October. I voted champ, because Crede is a good ballplayer. We will all be sorry if he goes on to be a stud for 3 or 4 years with another team. Just as with his sideburns, you must be patient. He will grow, and so will they.

Taliesinrk
07-22-2005, 08:26 PM
Most people will hopefully be singing the comets praises come October. I voted champ, because Crede is a good ballplayer. We will all be sorry if he goes on to be a stud for 3 or 4 years with another team. Just as with his sideburns, you must be patient. He will grow, and so will they.

Best analogy I've heard in months...

wassagstdu
07-23-2005, 09:45 AM
Crede did a lot of things wrong trying to catch that popup,but he didn't try and make the "sweep" catch as some have said.
That ball came twisting back toward the infield while Joe had his eye off of it for a second.
In real time I had the same reaction Hawk and DJ had, that he tried to showboat it. The slow-mo replays didn't show it. The ball was twisting back and that's why the sweep was a disaster.

I go hot and cold on Crede like most everyone. On balance I would love to see him develop and stay with the Sox for a long time. BUT that ain't gonna happen as long as the antichrist is his agent. Can anyone tell me when he is eligible for free agency? Better get some value for him before that.

iamkoza
07-23-2005, 03:46 PM
Maybe if he cut his hair he;d go back to the old joe crede.... the guy that hit .250 instead of .240 :)

soltrain21
07-23-2005, 03:54 PM
I dig the new look he has going and I want to keep him. If I remember correctly, he always plays well in September, correct?

Palehose13
07-23-2005, 04:46 PM
I voted for tragically misunderstood.

Crede has a knack for coming up big with his stick in big situations and not so much when pressure is not on (see: Uribe, Juan). Because of this I will take the stellar defense from both of them with their sub .250 averages as long as they continue to be clutch when needed...what more should you expect from you 8 & 9 guys?

Too often Crede is bashed here, but I think he is an asset to the team. I guess I'm coming out...put me down as one of Crede's Crew. :wink: