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View Full Version : Trade Vizcaino Now!!!


fincher
07-21-2005, 11:15 PM
This guy has got to to go elsewhere. Sure Crede should have made the catch of Manny Ramirez' foul ball tonight, but Vizcaino gives up too many big hits. He's a buzz kill. :mad:

pczarapa
07-21-2005, 11:16 PM
This guy has got to to go elsewhere. Sure Crede should have made the catch of Manny Ramirez' foul ball tonight, but Vizcaino gives up too many big hits. He's a buzz kill. :mad:

Yeah, but Crede set up that buzz

The Wimperoo
07-21-2005, 11:17 PM
Yeah, but Crede set up that buzz

That still doesn't give him the excuse to throw a meatball right down the middle to one of the best in the game.

soltrain21
07-21-2005, 11:18 PM
And the darkclouds come a rollin' in.

ChiWhiteSox1337
07-21-2005, 11:22 PM
Are you suggesting that another team would be willing to trade for Vizcaino?

ktsmith
07-21-2005, 11:25 PM
I thought getting rid of Shingo was a dumb, money saving move from the start. Shingo was much better this year than his numbers indicated, he was a good teammate, and he was someone Iguchi could have a conversation with. I think he was worth the 2.5 million that Reinsdorf had to save by getting rid of him.

I hate it when management has to tweak a team, especially this year, when we're playing great and have good chemistry. I think the Sox would have gotten rid of Vizcaino instead of Shingo. Shingo's salary was 2.5 Mil a year and Vizcaino's was 1.3 Mil a year. Coincidence? Nah. It looks like Reinsdorf strikes again.

bigdommer
07-21-2005, 11:25 PM
Who else would mop up now that Shingo is gone?

chisoxmike
07-21-2005, 11:26 PM
That still doesn't give him the excuse to throw a meatball right down the middle to one of the best in the game.
He should've had the chance.

skobabe8
07-21-2005, 11:28 PM
Viz showed me everything I ned to know about him on that very pitch to Manny. No nuts whatsoever. He doesnt give an f. He's got an excuse whatever happens, so who cares, right? He didnt even try to pick up a teamate. Get him the F out of dodge!

fincher
07-21-2005, 11:29 PM
Arizona was interested in Takatsu. So, yes, I'm suggesting some team might be interested. And, if he can't be dealt, then he'll have to earn his way back to pitching in crucial situations. Neal Cotts had to do it earlier this season and now Vizcaino should be put into that role.

The Sox need to step up this weekend.

DarkCloudDropo
07-21-2005, 11:29 PM
Viz had given up only 1 run since june 20th. Why not jump down Mark's throat instead if you need a scapegoat?

StepsInSC
07-21-2005, 11:29 PM
It was a mistake, it happens, and the good hitters make pitchers pay for mistakes.

Despite what the Boston announcers said, Manny didn't 'set up' Luis for that pitch. Vizcaino had Manny set up nicely, but threw the ball to the wrong side of the plate.

soxfanreggie
07-21-2005, 11:30 PM
If he's pitching like a sack of beans, he's going to get less of prospects than Shingo will bring. Send him down to Triple A and bring up Baj. Do something Kenny and Ozzie! No wonder he is the "volcano" (as they refer to him still in Milwaukee)

skobabe8
07-21-2005, 11:31 PM
Viz had given up only 1 run since june 20th. Why not jump down Mark's throat instead if you need a scapegoat?

Because MB has proved himself to at least compete every time he's out there. I've been patient with Viz all season, but that was a sad display. He;s dead to me.

DaveIsHere
07-21-2005, 11:32 PM
This guy has got to to go elsewhere. Sure Crede should have made the catch of Manny Ramirez' foul ball tonight, but Vizcaino gives up too many big hits. He's a buzz kill. :mad:

Two Words: Shut Up!!

ktsmith
07-21-2005, 11:32 PM
It sure didn't take long for Sox fans to forget about Shingo's value. If he threw 98 mph, everybody would still want him here. If Hermanson goes down, don't you want an experienced closer, like Mr. Zero, or would you rather have Marte come in and walk in the winning run like he has done about ten times in the last two years. I'm telling you, there's more to Shingo's value than that deceptive ERA in the high 5's. Don't forget, last year at this time, his ERA was well under 2

DarkCloudDropo
07-21-2005, 11:32 PM
Because MB has proved himself to at least compete every time he's out there. I've been patient with Viz all season, but that sad display was it for me.

The sad display is right here in this thread.

Tragg
07-21-2005, 11:34 PM
What you see is what you get from the back of your bullpen; if he was consistently good, he wouldn't be a middle reliever. Every team has Vizcaino's. The question to me is what in the hell is he doing in there in the 9th?

skobabe8
07-21-2005, 11:37 PM
The sad display is right here in this thread.

Are you suggesting that Viz did everything he could to try and pick up Crede after that drop?

:roflmao:

fincher
07-21-2005, 11:39 PM
Two Words: Shut Up!!

Heck no. The guy has got to go. I will even wager a beer he will be traded.

As for getting rid of Takatsu over Vizcaino being a financial move...give me a break. Takatsu was lousy this season and his numbers support it. Sure, Shingo was helpful to Iguchi but he couldn't get the job done.

This team needs tweaks. Period. The Sox need another arm and another hitter...hopefully Ross Gload because we cannot depend on Frank Thomas to remain healthy...and take Thomas out of the three-spot when he does play.

MIgrenade
07-21-2005, 11:40 PM
I thought getting rid of Shingo was a dumb, money saving move from the start. Shingo was much better this year than his numbers indicated, he was a good teammate, and he was someone Iguchi could have a conversation with. I think he was worth the 2.5 million that Reinsdorf had to save by getting rid of him.

I hate it when management has to tweak a team, especially this year, when we're playing great and have good chemistry. I think the Sox would have gotten rid of Vizcaino instead of Shingo. Shingo's salary was 2.5 Mil a year and Vizcaino's was 1.3 Mil a year. Coincidence? Nah. It looks like Reinsdorf strikes again.

OH. MY. GOD.

I was SO pissed off after this game and I felt like jumping out a window. Then I come here and realize some people have already jumped and unfortunately survived. Shingo sucks. Get over it.

DarkCloudDropo
07-21-2005, 11:46 PM
Are you suggesting that Viz did everything he could to try and pick up Crede after that drop?

:roflmao:

Yes I am. Did Shilling do everything he could to get Crede out?
Have you ever played this game?

Optipessimism
07-21-2005, 11:50 PM
Heck no. The guy has got to go. I will even wager a beer he will be traded.

As for getting rid of Takatsu over Vizcaino being a financial move...give me a break. Takatsu was lousy this season and his numbers support it. Sure, Shingo was helpful to Iguchi but he couldn't get the job done.

This team needs tweaks. Period. The Sox need another arm and another hitter...hopefully Ross Gload because we cannot depend on Frank Thomas to remain healthy...and take Thomas out of the three-spot when he does play.

By your garbage logic we should also trade Crede for dropping the ball. And we should probably trade every guy in the lineup who didnt score a run. And, we should trade Iguchi for his errors, and also trade Rowand because a ball hit off his glove.

If Crede makes that play, the game is still on and this thread doesn't exist. Somebody please kill this thread.

Banix12
07-21-2005, 11:52 PM
I don't really want to pile on Vizcaino right now. There is enough of that.

I've noticed though a reoccuring trend with ex-brewers relievers. A lot of them really falter after they leave milwaukee. Kolb has been a disaster in Atlanta. Vizcaino has struggled here. Former closer Mike Dejean struggled quite a bit after he was traded in 2003, once getting released from Baltimore last season. Curtis Leskanic had a few decent runs of effectiveness but has never really been as lights out as in Milwaukee, been cut by both KC last year and Boston this season. Valerio de los Santos had a 6+ era in toronto last season.

Ray King seems to be the only guy in recent history to have left Milwaukee's pen and gotten better.

This is a lesson for the future, be wary of Milwaukee relievers.

DarkCloudDropo
07-21-2005, 11:55 PM
I don't really want to pile on Vizcaino right now. There is enough of that.

I've noticed though a reoccuring trend with ex-brewers relievers. A lot of them really falter after they leave milwaukee. Kolb has been a disaster in Atlanta. Vizcaino has struggled here. Former closer Mike Dejean struggled quite a bit after he was traded in 2003, once getting released from Baltimore last season. Curtis Leskanic had a few decent runs of effectiveness but has never really been as lights out as in Milwaukee, been cut by both KC last year and Boston this season. Valerio de los Santos had a 6+ era in toronto last season.

Ray King seems to be the only guy in recent history to have left Milwaukee's pen and gotten better.

This is a lesson for the future, be wary of Milwaukee relievers.

Or not.

ktsmith
07-21-2005, 11:58 PM
Shingo doesn't suck and I'm not the one jumping out the window. Remember in 2003, when the Sox went on a winning streak right after the all-star break and were gaining big ground on Minnesota. Willie Harris and Rowand were starting to come on good too, and what does Williams do? He picks up Everett and Roberto Alomar, Rowand and Harris ride the bench, the Sox won the next game, but then went to Detroit and Tampa Bay and lost all six games.

This year, the Sox bust out of the gate after the all-star break, win 4 straight, Kenny Williams has to step in and get rid of Shingo, we win the next game, and now have lost 3 in a row. Hopefully, the losing streak won't continue.

It's a pattern, when Williams makes moves during the regular season, they usually end up sour.

beckett21
07-21-2005, 11:59 PM
Shingo doesn't suck and I'm not the one jumping out the window. Remember in 2003, when the Sox went on a winning streak right after the all-star break and were gaining big ground on Minnesota. Willie Harris and Rowand were starting to come on good too, and what does Williams do? He picks up Everett and Roberto Alomar, Rowand and Harris ride the bench, the Sox won the next game, but then went to Detroit and Tampa Bay and lost all six games.

This year, the Sox bust out of the gate after the all-star break, win 4 straight, Kenny Williams has to step in and get rid of Shingo, we win the next game, and now have lost 3 in a row. Hopefully, the losing streak won't continue.

It's a pattern, when Williams makes moves during the regular season, they usually end up sour.

Get a grip. :rolleyes:

Region Sox
07-22-2005, 12:03 AM
That is the fact. 2 out, tied, top of 8.

skobabe8
07-22-2005, 12:07 AM
Yes I am. Did Shilling do everything he could to get Crede out?
Have you ever played this game?

I usually dont respond to moronic posts, but I'll make an exception. I'm not saying that Vizcaino is expected to get out Manny Ramirez every time he faces him. But I do expect him not to pout after a play isnt made behind him like a baby and actually give it a good effort. Suck it up. Pick up your teammate. Pitch like you care.

Yes.

DarkCloudDropo
07-22-2005, 12:12 AM
I usually dont respond to moronic posts, but I'll make an exception. I'm not saying that Vizcaino is expected to get out Manny Ramirez every time he faces him. But I do expect him not to pout after a play isnt made behind him like a baby and actually give it a good effort. Suck it up. Pick up your teammate. Pitch like you care.

Yes.

And how do you know he was pouting? You in the mind of the pitcher are you? You are talking out of your ass. You are looking for a scapegoat, nothing more.

Optipessimism
07-22-2005, 12:15 AM
I usually dont respond to moronic posts, but I'll make an exception. I'm not saying that Vizcaino is expected to get out Manny Ramirez every time he faces him. But I do expect him not to pout after a play isnt made behind him like a baby and actually give it a good effort. Suck it up. Pick up your teammate. Pitch like you care.

Yes.

You just made your own moronic post.

You're saying Vizzy pouted and intentionally didn't give a good effort afterwards? Because he doesn't care? ***?

Do you think he has any motivation not to care? Do you think that he'd rather suck than do a good job and make more money?

It's Manny Freakin' Ramirez, future hall of famer, who hit that home run. You don't give that guy another chance, period. If Vizzy had made the perfect pitch in that situation there is still a chance that he would have found a way to hit the ball out of the park. And what would you have said then? That he didn't try? Come on.

skobabe8
07-22-2005, 12:16 AM
And how do you know he was pouting? You in the mind of the pitcher are you? You are talking out of your ass. You are looking for a scapegoat, nothing more.

:rolling:

I broke my rule once, I wont do it twice!

DarkCloudDropo
07-22-2005, 12:17 AM
:rolling:

I broke my rule once, I wont do it twice!

Not smart enough to realize you just did?

Optipessimism
07-22-2005, 12:23 AM
What was the count when Manny hit that hr?

http://wrestle.ru/photo/therock/images/03.jpg

IT DOESNT MATTER what the count was!!!

Manny can hit just about anything out if it's even remotely close to the plate. It just depends on what he's looking for. He was looking in, so goodbye baseball.

Why are you arguing? So yeah, the pitch Vizzy made turned out to be the wrong pitch at that particular time. That doesn't take away from the fact that he should have already been in the dugout. He made one good pitch that fooled the hitter, and the defense couldn't get it done. This isn't Rookie League baseball here. This is the Major Leagues. If you get your chance, you have to capitalize. Crede got his chance, and he missed it. Manny got his chance, and he didn't.

skobabe8
07-22-2005, 12:38 AM
http://wrestle.ru/photo/therock/images/03.jpg

IT DOESNT MATTER what the count was!!!

Manny can hit just about anything out if it's even remotely close to the plate. It just depends on what he's looking for. He was looking in, so goodbye baseball.

Why are you arguing? So yeah, the pitch Vizzy made turned out to be the wrong pitch at that particular time. That doesn't take away from the fact that he should have already been in the dugout. He made one good pitch that fooled the hitter, and the defense couldn't get it done. This isn't Rookie League baseball here. This is the Major Leagues. If you get your chance, you have to capitalize. Crede got his chance, and he missed it. Manny got his chance, and he didn't.

THANK YOU.

Thats exactly what Viz thought, too.

No one is saying he grooved one on purpose, I know he's trying to get the guy out. But in the back of his mind he has an insurance policy if he gives up a dong. Everyone is gonna blame Joe Crede for a PHYSICAL ERROR, which happens in baseball. Forget the fact the Gooch made 2, or Arrow made 1 unofficial one. He made his pitch and the play wasnt made. So if anything else happens, he's off the hook. If thats the way you play, might as well play for someone else. So instead of making a good pitchers pitch he goes right back inside, where Manny would be looking, hoping to get him to pop up again.


Like I said before, had Louis shown me during previous appearances that he's willing to not get down when something goes wrong, I wouldnt have this opinion. But he hasnt. Cliff Politte gives up the home run, I tip my hat to Manny because I've seen Cliff show heart all season.

Do you finally understand or do I have to explain it at an even more basic level?

StockdaleForVeep
07-22-2005, 12:49 AM
This guy has got to to go elsewhere. Sure Crede should have made the catch of Manny Ramirez' foul ball tonight, but Vizcaino gives up too many big hits. He's a buzz kill. :mad:

Viz did his job, crede didnt do his

Banix12
07-22-2005, 12:52 AM
Basically it's like this. When a pitcher gets in a jam there is always talk about the defense picking up the pitcher. make the catches. get the double plays. help get your guy out of a jam.

It works both ways. When one of your fielders screws up there are times when the pitcher has to pick up a fielder.

Neither player did their best tonight.

Vizcaino has been much better of late so I'm not really feverishly angry at him or even crede for that matter since it was his hit that tied the game anyway.

There is though this feeling that if ManRam beats your best bullpen guy like a politte or Hermanson or even a cotts as well as he has pitched this year that he just tagged the best your team can put out there. When he takes Vizcaino deep you think, "What the hell was he doing out there in the first place?"... "Where's Cotts or Hermanson?!?"

Jjav829
07-22-2005, 01:05 AM
Since May 27th, Vizcaino has given up 4 earned runs in 23 1/3 innings. His ERA stands at 4.11 after tonight's outing. I was as hard on the guy as anyone early on, but he's turned it around a bit. The problem is Dustin Hermanson. Right now we can't use him to pitch. Both yesterday and today's games were situations where Hermanson should have pitched the 9th inning. You put Hermanson in yesterday to keep it a 1-run game and today to hold the tie. That's a great time to use your closer. Yet right now Ozzie is going with basically a 5-man bullpen. He didn't have much choice there. Ideally you'd have your closer pitch that inning.

I'll admit, early on there wasn't a game that Vizcaino entered that I thought he wouldn't give up a run. Today when he came in, I felt about as comfortable as you can feel in a tie game with Manny in the batters box.

sox1malone84
07-22-2005, 01:20 AM
It was a team loss tonight. We shouldn't blame anyone for anything. We just need to come out tommorrow, and play a better overall game. But here is a trade proposal that could spark something even though it doesn't sound realistic. I know I'm not respected for my trade proposals, but here it goes. We send Contreras, Marte, and Anderson to Florida for Burnett, and Lowell. Than we send Uribe, Vizcaino, Munoz, and Walker to Philly for Wagner. Than we trade Lowell to San Francisco for Vizquel. A three way trade that would definetely spark this team. Uribe goes back to the National League where he came from, Lowell stays in the National League, and Vizquel comes back to the AL Central where he probably wants to finish off his career, and win a ring.

Lineup

1. Pods
2. Gooch
3. Vizquel
4. Konerko
5. Everett
6. Rowand
7. Dye
8. Crede
9. Pierzynski

Pitching Staff

1. Buehrle- 20 game winner.
2. Garcia- atleast a 15-18 game winner.
3. Burnett- Can be a 20 game winner, but not this year. Has nasty stuff.
4. Hernandez- An playoff opponents' nightmare if healthy.
5. Garland- 20 game winner.

Bullpen

1. Cotts- Most imporved Bullpen arm
2. Politte- Guy that is 6-0
3. Jenks- Guy that throws 99 MPH
4. Wagner- Guy that throws 100 MPH
5. Hermanson- 20+ saves already

Now this is a better team to look at. The holes are filled if Kenny can find a way to pull off a trade like this.

Optipessimism
07-22-2005, 01:41 AM
THANK YOU.

Thats exactly what Viz thought, too.

No one is saying he grooved one on purpose, I know he's trying to get the guy out. But in the back of his mind he has an insurance policy if he gives up a dong. Everyone is gonna blame Joe Crede for a PHYSICAL ERROR, which happens in baseball. Forget the fact the Gooch made 2, or Arrow made 1 unofficial one. He made his pitch and the play wasnt made. So if anything else happens, he's off the hook. If thats the way you play, might as well play for someone else. So instead of making a good pitchers pitch he goes right back inside, where Manny would be looking, hoping to get him to pop up again.


Like I said before, had Louis shown me during previous appearances that he's willing to not get down when something goes wrong, I wouldnt have this opinion. But he hasnt. Cliff Politte gives up the home run, I tip my hat to Manny because I've seen Cliff show heart all season.

Do you finally understand or do I have to explain it at an even more basic level?

Your thinking is at a basic level. Vizzy got Manny to pop up, Crede can't make the play, and on the next pitch (that it appeared AJ called) Vizzy goes in and gets hammered.

Why you have been saying such ridiculous things about Vizzy is beyond me. It's not that he doesn't care. It's not that he sucks. It's not that he doesn't have heart, either. He never should have been in that situation in the first place. Over and done with.

As far as your comments about Politte and this obsession you have about the idea of 'heart,' Politte is a better pitcher. He has a much better fastball, he hits his spots, and thus has been more effective. 'Heart' is no factor. Was anyone questioning Billy Krotch's 'heart' the last two years? No, they were questioning his ability to pitch at the the Major League level. Lots of players have 'heart,' but usually when you compliment a player for his 'heart' it is because he has no other skills that stand out. The people with the most 'heart' you see a few times and then are gone, i.e. Kelly Dransfeldt.

Mr. White Sox
07-22-2005, 01:48 AM
What you see is what you get from the back of your bullpen; if he was consistently good, he wouldn't be a middle reliever. Every team has Vizcaino's. The question to me is what in the hell is he doing in there in the 9th?

The problem was, Politte and Marte were already used, and Vizcaino was put in to deal with the 1st batter, as his BAA for the 1st hitter is something like .140. Now you have a problem: Take Vizcaino out and risk the game going into extras with only two/three bullpen guys, one of whom is slightly injured and hasn't pitched in eight days and another of whom is an unproven rookie with suspect control, or leave him in against the 4-5-6 guys. It was a tough decision to make, and unfortunately it didn't turn out well due to a fastball that tailed into Manny's wheelhouse.


EDIT: Another problem could be the offense, although not by much...the Red Sox average 5.5 rpg, and the Sox scored five. Either the Sox O will have to perform above-average to win this series, or the pitching will have to cause the Red Sox to underperform on offense. Luckily, the Red Sox will help out with Wade Miller, Wakefield, and Arroyo coming to the bump.

SOXfnNlansing
07-22-2005, 03:13 AM
Yeah, but Crede set up that buzz I don't care how many balls are dropped, vizz the fizz SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:angry: he always has and always will!

iamkoza
07-22-2005, 03:45 AM
MB only went 6+ today, should we trade him along with vizcaino?

Banix12
07-22-2005, 04:14 AM
Your thinking is at a basic level. Vizzy got Manny to pop up, Crede can't make the play, and on the next pitch (that it appeared AJ called) Vizzy goes in and gets hammered.

Why you have been saying such ridiculous things about Vizzy is beyond me. It's not that he doesn't care. It's not that he sucks. It's not that he doesn't have heart, either. He never should have been in that situation in the first place. Over and done with.

I don't know, there is some credence to her line of thinking about Vizcaino. There have been players in the past that have had a tendency toward getting rattled and give up a lot of hits when a fielder makes an error. Mike Sirotka comes to mind. He always struggled in those situations. Some pitchers do just get frustrated and angry and think stupid things like "I'm gonna throw my fastball right by him. If I throw it as hard as I can he can't catch up to it."

I don't know whether that was the case last night. I haven't paid enough attention to vizcaino to know whether that is in his nature. However pitchers like that do exist.

Also, while I agree that he shouldn't have been in that situation and Crede should have caught that ball. The fact remains that he WAS in that situation and he failed. You can't turn back time by complaining about it, just ask any cub fan who complains about Bartman and Alou not catching that foul ball.

There was one thing Vizcaino couldn't do in that situation and that was give up a homerun and he gave up a homerun. So frankly both of them screwed up. There is always tomorrow

Ironically as I think about this. If he had dropped the popup while the ball was in play he might have thrown Ramirez out at first since he often doesn't run to first on plays like that.

TornLabrum
07-22-2005, 07:32 AM
MB only went 6+ today, should we trade him along with vizcaino?

Not only that, Buehrle allowed the first batter to reach base in five of the seven innings he pitched. You just can't do that and expect to win. This is absolute proof the Buehrle must go.

Viva Medias B's
07-22-2005, 07:51 AM
After Crede dropped the ball, someone (A.J./Coop/Ozzie) should have gone out to the mound and calmed Vizcaino down.

fincher
07-22-2005, 08:00 AM
By your garbage logic we should also trade Crede for dropping the ball. And we should probably trade every guy in the lineup who didnt score a run. And, we should trade Iguchi for his errors, and also trade Rowand because a ball hit off his glove.

If Crede makes that play, the game is still on and this thread doesn't exist. Somebody please kill this thread.

Is your only way out to "kill a thread" if you don't like it? Where's your backbone?

Trade Vizcaino. Period. You don't have to agree but don't go running to a mod because you're mad.

Lighten up, Francis.

mealfred13
07-22-2005, 08:06 AM
After Crede dropped the ball, someone (A.J./Coop/Ozzie) should have gone out to the mound and calmed Vizcaino down.

I was thinking the EXACT same thing. I think it might have made the difference in the game.

alohafri
07-22-2005, 09:52 AM
Trade Vizcaino. Period.

I just looked up Vizcaino in my Spanish-English dictionary. It translates to Mike Jackson.

mccoydp
07-22-2005, 09:57 AM
I just looked up Vizcaino in my Spanish-English dictionary. It translates to Mike Jackson.

:D:. Too funny.

Heffalump
07-22-2005, 10:00 AM
I thought getting rid of Shingo was a dumb, money saving move from the start. Shingo was much better this year than his numbers indicated, he was a good teammate, and he was someone Iguchi could have a conversation with. I think he was worth the 2.5 million that Reinsdorf had to save by getting rid of him.

I hate it when management has to tweak a team, especially this year, when we're playing great and have good chemistry. I think the Sox would have gotten rid of Vizcaino instead of Shingo. Shingo's salary was 2.5 Mil a year and Vizcaino's was 1.3 Mil a year. Coincidence? Nah. It looks like Reinsdorf strikes again.

Uh, HELLO ???.........They STILL have to pay Shingo his $2.5 million. Unless, you have some insider information, we haven't traded Shingo for anything yet and even if we do, we would probably have to pick up some of his remaining salary.

Welcome to WSI, but before you post, know what you are typing about.

dickallen15
07-22-2005, 10:12 AM
It was a mistake, it happens, and the good hitters make pitchers pay for mistakes.

Despite what the Boston announcers said, Manny didn't 'set up' Luis for that pitch. Vizcaino had Manny set up nicely, but threw the ball to the wrong side of the plate.

The Boston announcers said Manny "set up" Vizcaino for that pitch? How, by popping up to the thirdbaseman? Manny knew Crede would drop a ball a little leaguer would catch? If they said that they are more clueless than Chip Caray.

LauraJ14
07-22-2005, 10:13 AM
Since May 27th, Vizcaino has given up 4 earned runs in 23 1/3 innings. His ERA stands at 4.11 after tonight's outing. I was as hard on the guy as anyone early on, but he's turned it around a bit. The problem is Dustin Hermanson. Right now we can't use him to pitch. Both yesterday and today's games were situations where Hermanson should have pitched the 9th inning. You put Hermanson in yesterday to keep it a 1-run game and today to hold the tie. That's a great time to use your closer. Yet right now Ozzie is going with basically a 5-man bullpen. He didn't have much choice there. Ideally you'd have your closer pitch that inning.

I'll admit, early on there wasn't a game that Vizcaino entered that I thought he wouldn't give up a run. Today when he came in, I felt about as comfortable as you can feel in a tie game with Manny in the batters box.


I know that Vizcaino has not given up that many earned runs lately but how many inherited runners has he allowed to score? I am too lazy to check. I just don't like him pitching in the 9th of a tie game. But I think that there was plenty of blame to go around last night, not just Crede or Vizcaino.

Tragg
07-22-2005, 10:21 AM
You put Hermanson in yesterday to keep it a 1-run game and today to hold the tie. That's a great time to use your closer. Yet right now Ozzie is going with basically a 5-man bullpen. He didn't have much choice there. Ideally you'd have your closer pitch that inning.


First, you don't put your closer in to keep a 1 run deficit a 1 run deficit.
Second, we may not have had much of a choice after Pollite was used in the SIXTH inning, but that begs the question - what was our best available reliever doing pitching in the 6th inning?
Third, with runner in scoring position in the 8th, why isn't Uribe pinch-hit for with Dye and maybe even Frank available? (actually, any hitter on the roster except maybe Harris is a better hitter than Uribe). That's Manuelesque.

kevingrt
07-22-2005, 10:41 AM
Two Words: Shut Up!!

Two Words: I Agree

Jesus, it's a three game losing streak and we are complaining about the management how we are in a downward spiral. Calm your arses down people! PLEASE!

As for Vizcanio as of late he has been rock solid in the bullpen. Prior to Manny's HR he had pitched 13+ innings of one run baseball. In his last 10 appearances he had only given up one run. He also is one of our best guys in the bullpen to go more then one inning.

You gys are absolutely going nuts right now.

nasox
07-22-2005, 10:52 AM
Who else would mop up now that Shingo is gone?


Jenks, although if you meant yesterday, Jenks wasn't about to be put in.

Iwritecode
07-22-2005, 11:25 AM
First, you don't put your closer in to keep a 1 run deficit a 1 run deficit.

Hermanson could've been brought in in the 8th when the game was tied.

Second, we may not have had much of a choice after Pollite was used in the SIXTH inning, but that begs the question - what was our best available reliever doing pitching in the 6th inning?

Who else would you rather see come out with the bases loaded and nobody out?

Third, with runner in scoring position in the 8th, why isn't Uribe pinch-hit for with Dye and maybe even Frank available? (actually, any hitter on the roster except maybe Harris is a better hitter than Uribe). That's Manuelesque.

I'm not sure either Dye (infection from a bugbite) or Thomas (sore ankle) were available for pinch hitting duties last night...

Jjav829
07-22-2005, 11:31 AM
First, you don't put your closer in to keep a 1 run deficit a 1 run deficit.
Second, we may not have had much of a choice after Pollite was used in the SIXTH inning, but that begs the question - what was our best available reliever doing pitching in the 6th inning?
Third, with runner in scoring position in the 8th, why isn't Uribe pinch-hit for with Dye and maybe even Frank available? (actually, any hitter on the roster except maybe Harris is a better hitter than Uribe). That's Manuelesque.

First, yes you do. In fact, this is one of the most common moves made in baseball. When you get to the 9th inning at home, and the game is close (either tied or within a run or two) you bring in your closer to preserve the situation. Any possible save situation is eliminated at that point because you are the home team. There is no reason to hold your closer back because he won't be coming in to save a game. So you bring him in, the idea being that he's one of your best relievers and used to pitching in tight situations.

Second, Politte pitched in the 7th inning, not the 6th. And it was absolutely the correct move by Ozzie. It was a tie game, the bases were loaded and there were no outs. That's the situation where Politte should pitch. You bring him in with the bases loaded and hope he can get out of that jam for you. That was the most critical turning point in the game. What would you have done? Bring in Vizcaino with the bases loaded and no outs and risk him giving up a slam to basically put the game out of reach? Ozzie couldn't have managed that any better. In fact, I said in the chat when Buehrle was pulled that Politte better be the pitcher coming in and not Cotts, Vizcaino or anyone else.

Third, I don't believe Frank was actually available to play yesterday.

ChiSoxPatF
07-22-2005, 11:42 AM
This is all so stupid. Vizcaino stuggled to start the season so everyone has a grudge for him despite the fact that he has been stellar lately until last night.

I forgot who said it, but its MANNY FREAKIN' RAMIREZ! Its what he does. You can't expect to get him out every time and you can't expect to get him out TWICE IN ONE AT BAT.

We need Vizcaino for this run as a strong middle reliever. He's not a closer, he's a 7th inning guy who has been pitching well lately. Maybe we're all just a little spoiled from winning so much this year that every time a Sox player makes a mental mistake that costs a game we're ready to put his head on a pike outside of the Cell.