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Jjav829
07-20-2005, 10:26 PM
Jayson Stark has a daily update on ESPN.com of the trade "Stark Market" where he updates the latest rumors. He has quite a bit on the Sox interest in Burnett, Wagner and Schmidt today. I won't post everything he says, but I'll briefly summarize what he had to say about the Sox today.

- The Marlins-Orioles deal for Burnett is on hold. They still can't agree on a deal with or without Lowell and his contract, so the Marlins have begun calling other teams. He lists both Sox and the Yankees as teams the Marlins have called. Stark says that a package of Contreras, Marte and Anderson might be what the Marlins have preferred all along, and that package could get a deal done.

- Stark says the Phillies are saying no to Wagner trades. But, the Phillies have supposedly told both the White Sox and Red Sox that if they can land Burnett, a deal of Burnett for Wagner would work.

- Stark says that the Sox have been one of he teams most linked with Randa, though the Padres might be entering the race. The Reds sale of ownership could prevent the Reds from making any deals though.

- The Schmidt part you might as well read for youself.
The Giants keep telling the world they want to build around Schmidt, not trade him. But teams keep on scouting him and keep on calling. And there are indications that no team wants him more than the White Sox. "The only kind of guy Kenny Williams wants to trade for is a No. 1 starter, or possibly a No. 2," said an official of one club that has been talking to Williams. So if he can't get Burnett, he apparently might as well target Schmidt. But the Giants told one team they would need to be "stunned" to trade Schmidt -- and they would need multiple inning-eating starters back. So ask yourself this: Would you be stunned by an offer headed by Contreras and Brandon McCarthy (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=7484)?

You can read the whole thing here (http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2108800).

Brian26
07-20-2005, 10:36 PM
Good stuff, Jjav. Thanks!

Looks like KW is definitely flying under the radar right now. I love it.

GiveMeSox
07-20-2005, 10:38 PM
I wouldn't really do any of those deals. Giving up Marte/Contreras/Andersen is not really worht burnett or wagner at all. Burnett is going to be a free agent too so its only getting him for 2 months. Giving up Marte is just not a good idea with only 5 arms in the pen, Jenks is just mop up, and hermy is unavaiable with a stiff back. Im ok with trading McCarthy, since we have all of starters basically locked up for next year and some of 07. I think something like a deal for Randa and Weathers from the reds would be just fine, no more no less. Ship out a timo or willie along with McCarthy and if needed a PTBNL and that would be fine. But i dont much care for burnett or wagner or schmidt trade proposals.

beckett21
07-20-2005, 10:40 PM
Thanks for the update Jjav.

After a long day of work, that just got me right back up to speed. :redneck

C'mon Kenny, you haven't let us down yet this season. Let's seal the deal(s). :bandance:

Flight #24
07-20-2005, 10:47 PM
Just IMO, but I wouldn't pay more for Burnett than Schmidt. Signed for '06 v. 3-mo rental. I also wouldn't deal Marte unless I was 100% sure of getting an equivalent or better reliever back. Not unless I was 100% certain Hermie'd be available, and right now that's unpossible.

Contreras+McCarthy/Young or Liotta/Sweeney for Schmidt sounds right. Contreras+Bajenaru+Liotta+Borchard for Burnett sounds right. That may not git 'er done, but I don't think it's worth it to give up more.

sthbndsox
07-20-2005, 11:15 PM
All I can say is, I can't wait until the trade deadline is over because I'm getting worn out by reading all these trade rumors, and I'm tired of getting my hopes up over what will probably turn out to be nothing. That being said, I really hope Kenny gets either Burnett or Schmidt. Make it happen, Kenny!

Mr. White Sox
07-20-2005, 11:17 PM
of COURSE the Marlins prefer the Sox package! It's insane! They trade a #1 starter, probably a #2 in the long run, and get a #4 starter, one of the better set-up men in the league, and the Sox' closest prospect to getting called up in Brian Anderson. That is an absurd package to offer and I hope KW isn't stupid enough to bite on that.

RowandKicksAss07
07-20-2005, 11:20 PM
How many times have we seen Marte come in and supposed to get the job done and he ends up walking a guy to load the bases or something and the other teams ends up getting 3 runs...Marte was hurt earlier in the year, and he also was in Guillen's doghouse for a little bit. The Sox need another reliever whether it be Wagner or Guardado...I don't see any reason to trade that much for Burnett and then just give him to the Phillies. I'm sure Kenny would not just make him a rental player- I bet he would lock him up like he did with Freddy. There would be no way Kenny would trade Burnett for Wagner unless he wasn't able to lock him up. They should just make the Burnett for Wagner a three-way deal then and maybe use the Phillies prospects along with our own. I know the Sox have been great all year, but a little spark like a big trade like this might just spice up the season even more and really light another fire under these guy's butts.....On another note, I've heard on the score about the Sox might being interested in Omar Vizquel which in my mind would be a great trade for the Sox. I'm getting kind of sick seeing Uribe lunge at every pitch...Being a high-school baseball player, I hate looking at Uribe's swing because he does everything wrong and somehow he still hits the ball SOMETIMES. Bottomline- Kenny just can't sit back, but needs to go out and make something happen, obviously to help the team though.

Banix12
07-20-2005, 11:24 PM
Thanks for the info Jjav.

The only signifigant deal there I would consider would be that suggested Schmidt trade for Contreras and McCarthy. The Burnett deal would likely weaken to team too much for not too much of an upgrade.

Randa may be worth something but I'm pretty pleased with Joe Crede and would hope any deal for Randa would be mostly as a backup plan for crede in case his back is really hurt badly.

I just seriously doubt Wagner gets traded unless the Phillies completely tank the next weeks worth of games.

The sox are going to need Marte. Lefty relievers of his quality are often difficult to come by this time of year.

gr8mexico
07-20-2005, 11:31 PM
I was wondering if the Sox make the trade for A.J Burnett and Lowell.Why not trade Lowell to the Pirates for Mark Redman.Then turn around & trade A.J for Billy Wagner.The Sox give up Contreras,Marte & top OF prospect for Burnett and Lowell.Then they trade Lowell and Borchard for Billy Wagner and a B level prospect.They save money for next year by trading Contreras and would be easier to sign Redman.The bullpen would be Cotts,Politte,Jenks,Wagner & Hermanson.Rotation would be Mark,Freddy,Garland,Redman & El Duque.NICE!!!

PAPChiSox729
07-20-2005, 11:36 PM
I was wondering if the Sox make the trade for A.J Burnett and Lowell.Why not trade Lowell to the Pirates for Mark Redman.Then turn around & trade A.J for Billy Wagner.The Sox give up Contreras,Marte & top OF prospect for Burnett and Lowell.Then they trade Lowell and Borchard for Billy Wagner and a B level prospect.They save money for next year by trading Contreras and would be easier to sign Redman.The bullpen would be Cotts,Politte,Jenks,Wagner & Hermanson.Rotation would be Mark,Freddy,Garland,Redman & El Duque.NICE!!!

Now is Wanger and Redman really much of an upgrade over Marte and Contreras?

Mr. White Sox
07-20-2005, 11:41 PM
Now are Wagner and Redman really much of an upgrade over Marte and Contreras?

:KW:
No, really, they're not. I love Billy Wagner and all, but he's expensive, and Redman? I'll pass.

Oh, and I don't really feel like trading away Brian Anderson unless completely necessary. Which it isn't.

RowandKicksAss07
07-20-2005, 11:44 PM
Now is Wanger and Redman really much of an upgrade over Marte and Contreras?

Wagner is definitely an upgrade over Marte...but the I'm not exactly sure how good Redman is. BBTN and other baseball shows talk aout him having a great year...but a 4-10 record is not too intimidating and you might say because he plays for the Pirates which is part true, but of is 62 runs allowed- 60 of them are earned which translates to a 4.24 ERA.

HebrewHammer
07-20-2005, 11:45 PM
All I can say is, I can't wait until the trade deadline is over because I'm getting worn out by reading all these trade rumors, and I'm tired of getting my hopes up over what will probably turn out to be nothing. That being said, I really hope Kenny gets either Burnett or Schmidt. Make it happen, Kenny!

Agree completely with the first half of your post. This rumor mongering is getting tired. Very tired.

I'd rather add Wagner. Six innings out of our starter then hand it over to Cotts/Politte in the 7th, Hermy/Marte in the 8th and Wags in the 9th. That's beyond a championship level bullpen.

gr8mexico
07-20-2005, 11:51 PM
Now is Wanger and Redman really much of an upgrade over Marte and Contreras? The Pirates don't score much for Mark Redman(LHP). In nine of his 19 starts, they've put up two or fewer runs and been shut out four times and yes Wagner is a huge upgrade over Marte and Wagner might be a great help teaching Bobby Jenks.

Heffalump
07-20-2005, 11:53 PM
Burnett is a fragile, disabled list junkie with one 13 win season. He is a poor man's Kerry Wood. There is no way in hell that the Sox should give up Contreras, Marte, and Anderson for him. In my opinion, it leaves you in a worse situation......Lose Marte, weaken the bullpen, replacing Contreras with Burnett is only a slight upgrade, and giving up Anderson depletes our stud minor leaguers.

Its not worth it. Walk away KW.

Optipessimism
07-20-2005, 11:54 PM
I was wondering if the Sox make the trade for A.J Burnett and Lowell.Why not trade Lowell to the Pirates for Mark Redman.Then turn around & trade A.J for Billy Wagner.

I'd rather have Contreras than Redman, Burnett, or Lowell.

I'd rather have Marte than any two of the above.

I'd like Wagner, but not if it means making McCarthy our fifth starter and having to use Adkins as backup for Duque. And if it also means losing Marte, than what's the point? Marte is signed, Wagner's not, and we don't even know if he'd be around next year. The whole purpose of acquiring another pitcher is to add depth. How is trading one of your best arms for another good arm adding depth?

The only name listed (besides trading for Wagner without giving up part of our ML bullpen) that makes sense is Redman, but he only makes sense if we need backup for El Duque. Even then, he wouldn't be worth giving up ML pitching for.

In short, the only deal supposedly out there that I like is a deal for Schmidt because he would command minor league talent and, when he's on, is a considerable upgrade over the 4th and 5th starters we have.

Optipessimism
07-20-2005, 11:55 PM
Its not worth it. Walk away KW.

The only part of your post that I don't agree with.

Kenny, don't walk away. RUN!!!

Heffalump
07-20-2005, 11:56 PM
In short, the only deal supposedly out there that I like is a deal for Schmidt because he would command minor league talent and, when he's on, is a considerable upgrade over the 4th and 5th starters we have.


I agree. If we can get a REAL pitcher like Schmidt, KW should pull the trigger. Otherwise, pass up the middle of the road guys and lets go with the guys that have gotten us this far.

Optipessimism
07-20-2005, 11:59 PM
I agree. If we can get a REAL pitcher like Schmidt, KW should pull the trigger. Otherwise, pass up the middle of the road guys and lets go with the guys that have gotten us this far.

Exactly.

Mr. White Sox
07-21-2005, 12:03 AM
I agree. If we can get a REAL pitcher like Schmidt, KW should pull the trigger. Otherwise, pass up the middle of the road guys and lets go with the guys that have gotten us this far.
Which probably won't happen. Sabean's not going to trade Schmidt unless he sees something he really likes, which would probably be something like McCarthy + Contreras + Marte ... which of course would be really stupid. I agree completely in that KW should stay put and not go after Burnett, who like you said, is a poor man's Carrie Woods, and stay away from 6th starters like Lilly and the like. Wagner, like you also said, is unsigned and is commanding 9,000,000 this year, which is about 7.25mil more than Marte is making. Sure he's an upgrade, but with what the Phillies are asking for (A.J. Burnett) and how much he's going to want next year, is it really worth it? I say no, but it is, of course, IMHO.

RowandKicksAss07
07-21-2005, 12:09 AM
Why are so many teams high on Aj Burnett? his career record is not that great. his trips to the DL are piling up. Yes he throws very hard but why is he such a coveted pitcher? Schimdt has a track record of being an extremely good pitcher and he has not been to the DL very much before this year...Schimdt can step in and be just as good as anybody we got.

gr8mexico
07-21-2005, 12:11 AM
How good was Redman under pressure when the Marlins were in the WS.How good is Contreras under pressure he is awful.Now Marte he is only good 50% of the time you never know whats going to happend when he comes out.Wagner is 3-1 20 saves ERA is 2.23 46k's in 44.1 IP & 14 BB.Now thats a huge upgrade over Marte and everyone knows Marte cant close games.

Optipessimism
07-21-2005, 12:15 AM
Yuck.

The big bar under the letter keys on your keyboard is a space bar. After a period, press this twice. THEN begin a new sentence.

ATXBMX
07-21-2005, 12:19 AM
How good was Redman under pressure when the Marlins were in the WS.How good is Contreras under pressure he is awful.Now Marte he is only good 50% of the time you never know whats going to happend when he comes out.Wagner is 3-1 20 saves ERA is 2.23 46k's in 44.1 IP & 14 BB.Now thats a huge upgrade over Marte and everyone knows Marte cant close games.

He was pretty terrible in the postseason.

0-1---6.50 ERA----18 IP

World Series line: 0-1----15.43 ERA--------2.1 IP, 4ER

Chisox003
07-21-2005, 12:24 AM
Why are so many teams high on Aj Burnett? his career record is not that great. his trips to the DL are piling up. Yes he throws very hard but why is he such a coveted pitcher? Schimdt has a track record of being an extremely good pitcher and he has not been to the DL very much before this year...Schimdt can step in and be just as good as anybody we got.

Im not arguing with you about taking Schmidt over Burnett, because I surely would....

But where are all these Burnett trips to the DL? He's had 1 big, serious injury, and some of you guys act like hes Carrie Woods getting hurt every 2 weeks

Not the case

RowandKicksAss07
07-21-2005, 12:33 AM
There is no way anyone can argue that Marte is better than Wagner. Marte is definitely not a clutch pitcher. If we did get Wagner, who says we need to make the closer right away? I think Hermie would keep that position as a reward for what he has dont thus far. In the playoffs, you only really need a 3-man rotation so I dont see why the Sox need to pick up a top tier-guy when they already have 3 top-tier guys. That being said Schimdt is an upgrade over Contreras or El Duque. They need to focus on getting a top middle reliever/closer guy to fit in the 7/8th innings....Another question, why is Ozzie considering using Hernandez in the playoffs? Yes he has a good record and is a big game pitcher...but how can u depend on him after the last month or so of starts he has had?

ATXBMX
07-21-2005, 12:33 AM
Im not arguing with you about taking Schmidt over Burnett, because I surely would....

But where are all these Burnett trips to the DL? He's had 1 big, serious injury, and some of you guys act like hes Carrie Woods getting hurt every 2 weeks

Not the case

He's been to the DL 4 times and has never started more than 29 games in a season. He had a 200 IP season, followed by a 23 IP season. I think that says a lot about his durability. He's never won more than 12 games, has a losing career record (43-44), and no postseason experience.

NO THANKS!

Banix12
07-21-2005, 12:34 AM
Why are so many teams high on Aj Burnett?

The same reason teams were high on Jeff Suppan a few years ago. It's the trading deadline and he seems to be the best pitcher available. Value skyrockets in this situation.

HebrewHammer
07-21-2005, 12:45 AM
Why are so many teams high on Aj Burnett?


Here's why...

:bong:

beckett21
07-21-2005, 01:04 AM
Im not arguing with you about taking Schmidt over Burnett, because I surely would....

But where are all these Burnett trips to the DL? He's had 1 big, serious injury, and some of you guys act like hes Carrie Woods getting hurt every 2 weeks

Not the case

If I see one more Burnett/Wood comparison I think my head will explode.

*banging head on wall*

ilsox7
07-21-2005, 01:20 AM
If I see one more Burnett/Wood comparison I think my head will explode.

*banging head on wall*

Yea really. Hasn't Burnett only been on the DL once?

Mr. White Sox
07-21-2005, 01:38 AM
Yea really. Hasn't Burnett only been on the DL once?

Yes. For a very, very long time.

He pitched 23 innings in 2003, then had Tommy John surgery right afterward. He pitched 120 innings in 2004; this is his first full season since 2002.

ilsox7
07-21-2005, 01:40 AM
Yes. For a very, very long time.

He pitched 23 innings in 2003, then had Tommy John surgery right afterward. He pitched 120 innings in 2004; this is his first full season since 2002.

That's normal for Tommy John surgery. Everyone compares him to Carrie, who has been on the DL I think about 5 times. It's not a similar situation whatsoever.

Mr. White Sox
07-21-2005, 01:44 AM
That's normal for Tommy John surgery. Everyone compares him to Carrie, who has been on the DL I think about 5 times. It's not a similar situation whatsoever.

While it technically is not a similar situation, I think people compare them because they are both 28 year old hard-throwing righties that have seen limited time in the bigs due to injury. Burnett has only had one 200IP year, and other than a 175IP year the year before, hasn't had anything close to that. Kerry Wood has never had more than 14 wins in a season; Burnett has never had more than 12. Even if the situations aren't similar, the amount of time missed and lack of big-league experience are.

Oh, and Kerry Wood also had Tommy John surgery in 1999.

beckett21
07-21-2005, 01:52 AM
Yea really. Hasn't Burnett only been on the DL once?

He was on the 15-day DL late in 2002, but other than that essentially he was out due to Tommy John surgery which caused him to miss most all of 2003 and the early part of 2004.

Since his return in June 2004 from TJ surgery, he has not been back on the DL. He missed one start this season. That's it.

The only thing he has in common with Wood is that they both had TJ surgery. Wood has had a lot more problems since then. Burnett has not.

Granted Burnett is not injury-free. But he is most definitely NOT Kerry Wood.

Tragg
07-21-2005, 02:08 AM
Just IMO, but I wouldn't pay more for Burnett than Schmidt. Signed for '06 v. 3-mo rental. I also wouldn't deal Marte unless I was 100% sure of getting an equivalent or better reliever back. Not unless I was 100% certain Hermie'd be available, and right now that's unpossible.

Contreras+McCarthy/Young or Liotta/Sweeney for Schmidt sounds right. Contreras+Bajenaru+Liotta+Borchard for Burnett sounds right. That may not git 'er done, but I don't think it's worth it to give up more.
I'm reminded of the old saw: you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The problem I have is that these 2 guys might be top level starters in comparison to other players on the block, but they are not top level starters in comparison to the league.

Is there any evidence at all that Schmidt is NOT finished as a top level pitcher? His ERA is 4.74; his ERA on may 29 was 5.08. That is marginal improvement in the last 6 weeks. Maybe he magically regains form when he comes to the southside - to me that's howling at the moon, and I don't give away talent in order to howl at the moon.

For that matter, I am still lookiing for evidence that Burnett is or ever has been a top level pitcher - people are going gaga about his performance last night: that would be a 4.50 ERA performance against below .500 national league competition. Wow - I'm impressed. I've been looking for evidence of his superiority for 2 weeks, and there simply is none to be found. (strikeout totals and what I would guess must be BP's love affair with him don't constitute credible evidence of greatness)

I'm not sure what you mean by this: "Contreras+McCarthy/Young or Liotta/Sweeney" Do you mean Contreras plus TWO top prospects for a 3 month rent of the great AJ Burnett?

I just can't go for Contreras plus a top prospect (much less 2) for a rent of Burnett. And if KW really offered that, it's still better than what the Orioles offered; and if KW really offered that plus Marte (losing him creates a new problem - you do not beat Boston and NY without left handed pitching), then why in the world did the Marlins not jump on it in the first place as it is clearly better than the Orioles offer. My conclusion (and hope) is that KW didn't offer all of that.

A signed Contreras for an AJ rent, straight up.

CYGarland20
07-21-2005, 02:35 AM
- The Marlins-Orioles deal for Burnett is on hold. They still can't agree on a deal with or without Lowell and his contract, so the Marlins have begun calling other teams. He lists both Sox and the Yankees as teams the Marlins have called. Stark says that a package of Contreras, Marte and Anderson might be what the Marlins have preferred all along, and that package could get a deal done Contreras-Marte-Anderson is TOO much. I would highly doubt it if KW would give up that much for Burnett, now Contreras-Marte-Borchard sounds more fair. I understand why KW is trying to acquire Burnett, like us he doesn't trust Contreras come playoff time, and El Duque's health is a big concern as well, not to mention he hasn't pitched that well this year anyway. But If we could go into the playoffs w/ Buehrle, Garcia, Garland, Burnett as our rotation, anyone would be hard pressed to not think we could win the WS. Plus I'm sure before we acquire Burnett, KW would want to sign him to a 3 or 4 year deal 1st.

Domeshot17
07-21-2005, 03:44 AM
Here is a few things people are over-looking that I firmly Believe.


Marte's absence allowed another Lefty, who was a star in the minors, Neil Cotts to prove himself as the dominant lefty out of the bullpen. Jason Schmidt, in my honest opinion, is a big game pitcher. AJ Burnett shows signs of being unreal.

Lets say its a playoff series, depending matchups, the 1-2-3 are Mark, Garland and Freddy. If El-Duque gets hurt, Do you want Jose Contreras on the mound. With Schmidt and Burnett, you know what you are getting. 4 Runs a game ( as Proven by ERA's, and Schmidts has been pretty good since getting his velo back around 95). They easily could match up with the number 4 starters on any playoff team (Wakefield-Lieter-Washburn). Another thing is, Both are pitching for teams having very disappointing seasons. For those of you who have played baseball, at any level, you all know how much playing for a bad team affects you. Being moved to a contending team could be a HUGE shot in the arm for the Sox and the Pitcher. We dealt the 1 year wonder Loaiza for Contreras, and while he does show signs of brilliance, he also has proven that his cage is easily rattled. 4-5 straight hits against the Tigers allows the big inning. Schmidt, Burnett, they dont give up too many big innings. AJ Burnett also has never had the pitching around him to make him better ( look what happened to Garland this year). Al Lieter was close, but a pitcher like freddy garcia could really show AJ how to fine tune himself.

( Sorry this is pretty long as well, just have a lot of opinions on this).

I personally, would do this deal in a second. Burnett wants 4/10 from what rumors have said, thats only about 1.5 more than Jose Makes. Locking him up gives us 4 quality starters signed plus the half a million drafted this year. Lance Broadway was projected as a very high riser, and I still have not given up on Honel because I played against him in high school and he is better then any pitcher I have ever seen on the college level.

KW also is not stupid. I think we need to have faith in him. He knows that any move made for AJ burnett is going to require a second deal, one for Miguel Batista or "Everyday" Eddie. Yah Eddie has had his struggles in Seattle, but a ton of our guys did with Olivio also. reuniting him with his old catcher, AJ original, could do wonders for him. Sunday will be a big sign as to where we go with Jose Contreras. He proved he can handle softer hitting teams, but if Boston Rocks him, its time for a move. Keep in mind, the playoffs are different baseball. We can't lose 3 then win 2 lose 1 and win 7. With our backs against the wall, and all the pressure on, do we really want the ball in the house of cards known as Jose Contreras. We also know KW does the unexpected, so I would not be all too suprised if we wind up landing Meche and Eddie from seattle, or take Lowell from Florida, get them to pay 25% of his salary, send him for a reliever to a team like San Diego, in desperate need for a 3b, or even hold onto him and let his playoff experience really drive the Sox. He has won a ring before, hes a leader, hitting the ball or not, he's a clubhouse guy and a leader. Frank Thomas, PK, Carl and Dye, They are great leaders IMO ( I know PK says some dumb stuff to the media, but if he really was a cancer, he would have been dealt to the Yankees for Pavano and Flash Gordon already) but none of them have World Series Experience. Jose just isnt the right piece, you think its good for the clubhouse when Jose is boo'd off the mound every other start. I have been there for many of those games this season. Ive seen Garcia get hit hard ( today ), the fans don't boo him. Moreover,We have 4 OF's already, 2 being old, but Pods and Aaron are here for a while, so with Sweeney and Anderson emerging, one is expendable.
I love both of these deals. Jose is the odd man out in any pitching deal, and Marte is a paper player, but i would not want the ball in his hand in the playoffs. Give it to Cotts. They need someone to relight that fire under them, and Schmidt and Burnett are the guys to do it. Especially Schmidt, hes known for lighting fire under a lot people ( literally, the biggest prankster in baseball has to be an ozzie player)

Madvora
07-21-2005, 08:40 AM
When it comes to a situation like we're in with the 2nd longest World Series drought in major league history, you've got to go for everything. And in this case, more than any other, you have to realize that a prospect is just a prospect. Right now, these guys are not on the major league team and aren't helping our push towards that World Series. If you can manage to spend your prospects, then do it.
When trades come around to requiring important guys off of your roster (like Marte,) then you really have to think, especially since you need to add to that bullpen. If Marte is involved in landing Burnett or Schmidt, then possibly prospects could be used to replace Marte with Guardado or Wagner etc. That would be an upgrade in reliver and starter, but I would still like one more reliever.
KW has a lot of work to do because one trade involves making another trade.

- by the way Jjav - great information here.

gr8mexico
07-21-2005, 09:12 AM
Yuck.

The big bar under the letter keys on your keyboard is a space bar. After a period, press this twice. THEN begin a new sentence.. When did this become English class.

BeviBall!
07-21-2005, 09:29 AM
Lets say its a playoff series, depending matchups, the 1-2-3 are Mark, Garland and Freddy. If El-Duque gets hurt, Do you want Jose Contreras on the mound.

Absolutely, 100% agree with this. I'm hoping Schmidt or Burnett pitches for us on Sunday so we don't get to see the BoSox mastery of JC ourselves.

ilsox7
07-21-2005, 09:32 AM
. When did this become English class.

I believe it's called Netiquette.

Mickster
07-21-2005, 09:35 AM
. When did this become English class.

In the 3rd grade. :cool:

mdep524
07-21-2005, 01:44 PM
Here is a few things people are over-looking that I firmly Believe.


Marte's absence allowed another Lefty, who was a star in the minors, Neil Cotts to prove himself as the dominant lefty out of the bullpen. Jason Schmidt, in my honest opinion, is a big game pitcher. AJ Burnett shows signs of being unreal.

Lets say its a playoff series, depending matchups, the 1-2-3 are Mark, Garland and Freddy. If El-Duque gets hurt, Do you want Jose Contreras on the mound. With Schmidt and Burnett, you know what you are getting. 4 Runs a game ( as Proven by ERA's, and Schmidts has been pretty good since getting his velo back around 95). They easily could match up with the number 4 starters on any playoff team (Wakefield-Lieter-Washburn). Another thing is, Both are pitching for teams having very disappointing seasons. For those of you who have played baseball, at any level, you all know how much playing for a bad team affects you. Being moved to a contending team could be a HUGE shot in the arm for the Sox and the Pitcher. We dealt the 1 year wonder Loaiza for Contreras, and while he does show signs of brilliance, he also has proven that his cage is easily rattled. 4-5 straight hits against the Tigers allows the big inning. Schmidt, Burnett, they dont give up too many big innings. AJ Burnett also has never had the pitching around him to make him better ( look what happened to Garland this year). Al Lieter was close, but a pitcher like freddy garcia could really show AJ how to fine tune himself.

( Sorry this is pretty long as well, just have a lot of opinions on this).

I personally, would do this deal in a second. Burnett wants 4/10 from what rumors have said, thats only about 1.5 more than Jose Makes. Locking him up gives us 4 quality starters signed plus the half a million drafted this year. Lance Broadway was projected as a very high riser, and I still have not given up on Honel because I played against him in high school and he is better then any pitcher I have ever seen on the college level.

KW also is not stupid. I think we need to have faith in him. He knows that any move made for AJ burnett is going to require a second deal, one for Miguel Batista or "Everyday" Eddie. Yah Eddie has had his struggles in Seattle, but a ton of our guys did with Olivio also. reuniting him with his old catcher, AJ original, could do wonders for him. Sunday will be a big sign as to where we go with Jose Contreras. He proved he can handle softer hitting teams, but if Boston Rocks him, its time for a move. Keep in mind, the playoffs are different baseball. We can't lose 3 then win 2 lose 1 and win 7. With our backs against the wall, and all the pressure on, do we really want the ball in the house of cards known as Jose Contreras. We also know KW does the unexpected, so I would not be all too suprised if we wind up landing Meche and Eddie from seattle, or take Lowell from Florida, get them to pay 25% of his salary, send him for a reliever to a team like San Diego, in desperate need for a 3b, or even hold onto him and let his playoff experience really drive the Sox. He has won a ring before, hes a leader, hitting the ball or not, he's a clubhouse guy and a leader. Frank Thomas, PK, Carl and Dye, They are great leaders IMO ( I know PK says some dumb stuff to the media, but if he really was a cancer, he would have been dealt to the Yankees for Pavano and Flash Gordon already) but none of them have World Series Experience. Jose just isnt the right piece, you think its good for the clubhouse when Jose is boo'd off the mound every other start. I have been there for many of those games this season. Ive seen Garcia get hit hard ( today ), the fans don't boo him. Moreover,We have 4 OF's already, 2 being old, but Pods and Aaron are here for a while, so with Sweeney and Anderson emerging, one is expendable.
I love both of these deals. Jose is the odd man out in any pitching deal, and Marte is a paper player, but i would not want the ball in his hand in the playoffs. Give it to Cotts. They need someone to relight that fire under them, and Schmidt and Burnett are the guys to do it. Especially Schmidt, hes known for lighting fire under a lot people ( literally, the biggest prankster in baseball has to be an ozzie player) Domeshot, you have a lot of interesting points here. Things I agree with:
Contreras is not a big game guy, He's the kind of pitcher who will excel in low pressure situations, vs. terrible teams like KC, TB, etc he pitches very well, but will melt immediately vs. good hitting teams. That makes him a decent 5th starter, but not someone that should be anywhere near a baseball mound during the playoffs. Jason Schmidt has been in a World Series; he's the antithesis of Contreras. If healthy (a BIG if, but one that Sox brass has to investigate thoroughly and determine), he's the kind of big game pitcher this team could use in the playoffs. A move for Ted Lilly or Gil Meche does not improve this team in the ALCS.

I also agree to an extent that Marte is more of a paper player than a clutch reliever, but he's looked sharp since the All Star Break. I like Cotts, but I don't know if I'm ready to turn all the reigns over to him in late inning playoff-like situations. If Marte is moved (which I'm not completely against), we would need to get a replacement back in another deal- Guardado or Wagner would do the trick.

I disagree with your thoughts on Honel (sorry, but the guy's finished), and that the Sox need to have the fire reignited for them. This team has the fire, no question. They're not going to lag.

In the end, I trust KW to figure this whole jigsaw puzzle out. Can't wait to see the results!

Iwritecode
07-21-2005, 02:20 PM
. When did this become English class.

It's called making your post easier to read. It promotes conversation and responses. Otherwise a lot people will just start to ignore your posts and you'll end up just talking to yourself.

Just ask the guy who used to post large blocks of text with very little punctuation or capitalization. I think he eventually got banned but got constant complaits about his posts...

ChiSoxPatF
07-21-2005, 02:30 PM
Why are so many teams high on Aj Burnett? his career record is not that great. his trips to the DL are piling up. Yes he throws very hard but why is he such a coveted pitcher? Schimdt has a track record of being an extremely good pitcher and he has not been to the DL very much before this year...Schimdt can step in and be just as good as anybody we got.

With as much as the Marlins are asking, I was wondering the same thing when I saw an article a few days ago that explained it. Its called the "Matt Clement phenomenon." Most teams were hesitant on a player that doesn't have an enormously impressive body of work but has ace-like stuff. Clement supposedly proved that talent will eventually show over the course of a career and so Burnett should eventually become the ace-type guy everyone thinks he is. Plus he fits in very well with the Sox that don't have a pitcher with that kind of stuff - he's young (which Kenny normally pursues) and he'll give the starting rotation another look to hitters (which Kenny also normally pursues).

That being said, Schmidt has PROVEN that when he's on he's one of the best pitchers in baseball and he's definitly been on the last few weeks (10 k's in the last outing). I'd like either but I'd definitly prefer Schmidt with as much as the Marlins are asking.

ChiSoxPatF
07-21-2005, 02:42 PM
Domeshot, you have a lot of interesting points here. Things I agree with:
Contreras is not a big game guy, He's the kind of pitcher who will excel in low pressure situations, vs. terrible teams like KC, TB, etc he pitches very well, but will melt immediately vs. good hitting teams. That makes him a decent 5th starter, but not someone that should be anywhere near a baseball mound during the playoffs. Jason Schmidt has been in a World Series; he's the antithesis of Contreras. If healthy (a BIG if, but one that Sox brass has to investigate thoroughly and determine), he's the kind of big game pitcher this team could use in the playoffs. A move for Ted Lilly or Gil Meche does not improve this team in the ALCS.

I also agree to an extent that Marte is more of a paper player than a clutch reliever, but he's looked sharp since the All Star Break. I like Cotts, but I don't know if I'm ready to turn all the reigns over to him in late inning playoff-like situations. If Marte is moved (which I'm not completely against), we would need to get a replacement back in another deal- Guardado or Wagner would do the trick.

I disagree with your thoughts on Honel (sorry, but the guy's finished), and that the Sox need to have the fire reignited for them. This team has the fire, no question. They're not going to lag.

In the end, I trust KW to figure this whole jigsaw puzzle out. Can't wait to see the results!

I could not agree more with almost every point you make. Especially Marte. I wish they had a stat for this, but I'd love to see how many runs he lets in. It seems like every inherited runner he gets he lets in then shuts down the rest (hence he's fairly ineffective yet has great numbers). We would need to find a replacement for him because we can't leave a blackhole in a pen that has been one of our strengths but I do not think that will be too hard or too expensive to fill (I, for one, am very pro-everyday Eddie).

socko82
07-21-2005, 03:25 PM
Domeshot, you have a lot of interesting points here. Things I agree with:
Contreras is not a big game guy, He's the kind of pitcher who will excel in low pressure situations, vs. terrible teams like KC, TB, etc he pitches very well, but will melt immediately vs. good hitting teams. That makes him a decent 5th starter, but not someone that should be anywhere near a baseball mound during the playoffs. Jason Schmidt has been in a World Series; he's the antithesis of Contreras. If healthy (a BIG if, but one that Sox brass has to investigate thoroughly and determine), he's the kind of big game pitcher this team could use in the playoffs. A move for Ted Lilly or Gil Meche does not improve this team in the ALCS.


In the end, I trust KW to figure this whole jigsaw puzzle out. Can't wait to see the results!



I agree with your point on Contreras. He surpised me earlier this year with the great game he pitched at Wrigley. Big crowd, hostile evironment, but pitching against minor leaguers. Let's see how he does this weekend against the Red Sox in front of a full house. If he craps down his leg he might be on way to south Florida.

GAsoxfan
07-21-2005, 03:37 PM
We would need to find a replacement for him because we can't leave a blackhole in a pen that has been one of our strengths but I do not think that will be too hard or too expensive to fill (I, for one, am very pro-everyday Eddie).

Eddie would be nice. I'm also interested in Batista because he's versatile: he can start, close, and do everything in between.

UofCSoxFan
07-21-2005, 04:53 PM
I wish they had a stat for this, but I'd love to see how many runs he lets in. It seems like every inherited runner he gets he lets in then shuts down the rest (hence he's fairly ineffective yet has great numbers). .

They do keep track of this. Here's a link.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/inh_beq_pitcher2005.php

I didn't realize Marte was this bad. He's like 389th in the major leagues in "inherited runs prevented (Politte and Hermonson are 5th and 34th respectively. Wagner is 245, but that number is skewed simply because he "inherits" few runners). 8 of Marte's 18 inherited runners have scored. That means he only prevents 55% of inherited runners from scoring. That is TERRIBLE. Moreover, he has left 18 runners for other pitchers to clean up, only 4 of which have scored...so in other words his era could be much worse if it weren't for the likes of hermonson and politte (see FRA).

Here's a key to help you out.

GR - games in relief
INB - inherited baserunners
INS - inherited runners who scored
INR - inherited runs prevented
BQB - bequeathed baserunners
BQS - bequeathed runners who scored
BQR - bequeathed runs prevented (by subsequent relievers - i.e. bullpen support)
FRA - "Fair" RA -- includes inherited/bequeathed runs prevented

ChiSoxPatF
07-21-2005, 05:08 PM
.

They do keep track of this. Here's a link.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/inh_beq_pitcher2005.php

I didn't realize Marte was this bad. He's like 389th in the major leagues in "inherited runs prevented (Politte and Hermonson are 5th and 34th respectively. Wagner is 245, but that number is skewed simply because he "inherits" few runners). 8 of Marte's 18 inherited runners have scored. That means he only prevents 55% of inherited runners from scoring. That is TERRIBLE. Moreover, he has left 18 runners for other pitchers to clean up, only 4 of which have scored...so in other words his era could be much worse if it weren't for the likes of hermonson and politte (see FRA).

Here's a key to help you out.

GR - games in relief
INB - inherited baserunners
INS - inherited runners who scored
INR - inherited runs prevented
BQB - bequeathed baserunners
BQS - bequeathed runners who scored
BQR - bequeathed runs prevented (by subsequent relievers - i.e. bullpen support)
FRA - "Fair" RA -- includes inherited/bequeathed runs prevented

Beautiful, case-and-point. Cue the "Trade Marte" threads.

beckett21
07-21-2005, 05:14 PM
Beautiful, case-and-point. Cue the "Trade Marte" threads.

I'm not pushing him out the door, but I certainly don't see him as someone who should be a potential sticking-point untouchable type.

Cotts has been much more effective this season IMO. I have more faith in him than Marte at this point in time.

Domeshot17
07-21-2005, 05:57 PM
I agree with all points made about Martes inherited runners and such. And, my homerism makes me think of everything as how it effects us in the playoffs. Game 4 ALDS, Contreras starts and say he does alright, 4-4 tie bottom 8 ( assuming game 4 is on the road). Marte comes in with runners on second and third and 1 out to face Juice and Tino. Now, the one thing Giambi has always been great at is getting walks. So Marte walks him, and gives up a 2 run single to Tino, leaving us to score 2 in the ninth against Rivera, and sox fans praying he forgets what color sox he is pitching too. I think Miguel Batista makes the most sense, because if El Duque went down, He could become with the 5th SP and we recall Adkins, who wasnt that bad for us last year. I think Eddie is the most realistic RP for his talent. He can Close if Dustin is hurting, be a lefty set up man giving us 2 very good lefties in the pen, and Seattle most likely is not asking a ransom for him, as they are trying to unload salary for next years Adrian Beltre and Richie Sexson.

Heres the deal Im all for that will never happen

Florida gets: Contreras-Marte-Jamie Moyer and Randy Winn
Sox get: Burnett-Eddie
Seattle gets: Anderson-B Prospect from Sox-B Prospects from the Fish

Pasqua's Posers
07-21-2005, 06:45 PM
Just IMO, but I wouldn't pay more for Burnett than Schmidt. Signed for '06 v. 3-mo rental. I also wouldn't deal Marte unless I was 100% sure of getting an equivalent or better reliever back. Not unless I was 100% certain Hermie'd be available, and right now that's unpossible.

Contreras+McCarthy/Young or Liotta/Sweeney for Schmidt sounds right. Contreras+Bajenaru+Liotta+Borchard for Burnett sounds right. That may not git 'er done, but I don't think it's worth it to give up more.

4 players for one guy?!?!? Absolutely nuts...the Sox need a reliable bat...

Taliesinrk
07-21-2005, 07:01 PM
Beautiful, case-and-point. Cue the "Trade Marte" threads.

What? the guy has one mediocre half-season and you guys are ready to ship him out?? Get outta here.. This guys been one of the most dominating relievers (at least LH) for the past couple of years!! Anyway, wasn't he fighting some pain earlier in the season before he was put on the DL?? Either way, that is absurd... When on, he's just plain nasty (as we've seen since he's been back) and with the pen troubles we already have, I don't see the benefit in us shipping him out unless we get a proven closer (aka Wagner).

Furthermore.. anything more than Contreras and Marte for a 3-month, back of the rotation pitcher (unless they can sign him to an extension) aka Burnett, I think would be foolish..

mdep524
07-21-2005, 07:54 PM
When on, he's just plain nasty (as we've seen since he's been back) and with the pen troubles we already have,I don't see the benefit in us shipping him out unless we get a proven closer (aka Wagner). ...that is the idea, yes.

Furthermore.. anything more than Contreras and Marte for a 3-month, back of the rotation pitcher (unless they can sign him to an extension) aka Burnett, I think would be foolish.. Agreed. Some people are going nutso in what they would trade for this guy.

Taliesinrk
07-21-2005, 10:02 PM
...that is the idea, yes.


Well that isn't necessarily the idea if we were to deal him to SF for Schmidt is it??

Tragg
07-22-2005, 12:23 AM
What? the guy has one mediocre half-season and you guys are ready to ship him out?? Get outta here.. This guys been one of the most dominating relievers (at least LH) for the past couple of years!! Anyway, wasn't he fighting some pain earlier in the season before he was put on the DL?? Either way, that is absurd... When on, he's just plain nasty (as we've seen since he's been back) and with the pen troubles we already have, I don't see the benefit in us shipping him out unless we get a proven closer (aka Wagner).

Furthermore.. anything more than Contreras and Marte for a 3-month, back of the rotation pitcher (unless they can sign him to an extension) aka Burnett, I think would be foolish..

Completely agree on both counts. We need Marte (we really need another LH pitcher) and paying Contreras and Marte and prospects for a 4/5 starter named Burnett is assinine. The issue, however, is that many are convinced for some reason, that Burnett is a front-line pitcher. His ERA and record say otherwise, but some people are steadfast in the belief that he's a number 1 guy.

beckett21
07-22-2005, 12:25 AM
Completely agree on both counts. We need Marte (we really need another LH pitcher) and paying Contreras and Marte and prospects for a 4/5 starter named Burnett is assinine. The issue, however, is that many are convinced for some reason, that Burnett is a front-line pitcher. His ERA and record say otherwise, but some people are steadfast in the belief that he's a number 1 guy.

I have absolutely no idea who you could possibly be referring to. :?:




:wink:

DSpivack
07-22-2005, 12:48 AM
I don't know if I liked any of the available SP's; Burnett the most, but he is also the most expensive. Schmidt is not what he is anymore, guys like Lilly or whomever else are just not good enough.

I am convinced we do not need a SP as much as we need a RP. Jose, to me, presents, a problem. If we don't trade for a starter, I am unconvinced which Cuban starts and which comes out of the pen.

However, Dustin's health concerns me, although that seems minor at this point. Politte is a solid RHP, Marte is a good LHP, Cotts seems good but at this point to me is unproven. Beyond that, do we really want to rely on guys like Bobby Jenks or Luis Vizcaino? I like El Duque and Jose more than I do those two.

mdep524
07-22-2005, 01:07 AM
Well that isn't necessarily the idea if we were to deal him to SF for Schmidt is it?? The idea, at least as some of us have suggested here, is that trading Marte for one of the starters (Schmidt or Burnett) would only be advantageous if it was necessarily followed by a deal that brings in a replacement- Wagner from the Phils, Guardado from Seattle, or possibly Batista (a righty) from the Blue Jays. I'm sure KW thinks about that as well.

Taliesinrk
07-22-2005, 02:29 AM
The idea, at least as some of us have suggested here, is that trading Marte for one of the starters (Schmidt or Burnett) would only be advantageous if it was necessarily followed by a deal that brings in a replacement- Wagner from the Phils, Guardado from Seattle, or possibly Batista (a righty) from the Blue Jays. I'm sure KW thinks about that as well.

Ok.. my fault.. it was my understanding that only the Burnett-Wagner deal would be that way. I thought if we got Schmidt, he was ours to keep to help one of the Cubans..

White Sox Randy
07-22-2005, 10:52 AM
Burnett is probably no better than Contreras and is less reliable.

The Sox need Marte AND Wagner. The Sox are trying to build depth in the bullpen and are really replacing Shingo and getting insurance for Hermanson.

We are not much ahead by trading Contreras, Marte and our best prospects to get Burnett and Wagner. And, with both those guys as free agents where are much worse off for next year.

mdep524
07-22-2005, 11:11 AM
Burnett is probably no better than Contreras and is less reliable.

The Sox need Marte AND Wagner. The Sox are trying to build depth in the bullpen and are really replacing Shingo and getting insurance for Hermanson.

We are not much ahead by trading Contreras, Marte and our best prospects to get Burnett and Wagner. And, with both those guys as free agents where are much worse off for next year. Let's not get too greedy here. The Sox don't "need" both Marte and Wagner, as Cotts has done a great job as the 2nd lefty in the pen, and Politte has been lights out against lefties as well.

White Sox Randy
07-22-2005, 01:21 PM
Let's not get too greedy here. The Sox don't "need" both Marte and Wagner, as Cotts has done a great job as the 2nd lefty in the pen, and Politte has been lights out against lefties as well.

let's not build a great bullpen, then we might win a World Series. That would suck. Cotts is a veteran with lots of playoff experience. I could easily see him dominating the Yankee lineup - like last time.

Forgot the teal.

Tragg
07-23-2005, 01:22 AM
let's not build a great bullpen, then we might win a World Series. That would suck. Cotts is a veteran with lots of playoff experience. I could easily see him dominating the Yankee lineup - like last time.

Forgot the teal.

Wagner's still a good pitcher, but he isn't what he was in Houston. I know his numbers are very good, but when he was in Houston I used to see him pitch practically every night and he doesn't have the same pop that he did then. For a stretch, he was near infallible - not any more.

Optipessimism
07-24-2005, 01:52 AM
Let's not get too greedy here. The Sox don't "need" both Marte and Wagner, as Cotts has done a great job as the 2nd lefty in the pen, and Politte has been lights out against lefties as well.

The whole idea of getting a guy like Wagner is to make the rest of the bullpen better, including Marte. If you trade Marte in a deal to get a lights-out closer, then where do we find a lights-out LH set up man? Cotts is great in the role he is in, and if we could bring in Wagner that would allow us to carry an extra bat/pinch runner (like Harris) in the playoffs. If Duque was our fourth starter, we'd have a bullpen of:

Contreras, Cotts, Hermanson, Politte, Marte, Wagner

I'd be more than happy taking that to the playoffs.