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View Full Version : Should Frank Be Moved Out of the Three-Spot?


RKMeibalane
07-20-2005, 09:55 AM
Should Frank be moved down in the batting order?

downstairs
07-20-2005, 09:57 AM
No... why?

Generally speaking, I love having a big hitter #3. It means he comes up in the first. So even if #1 and #2 fall short in their first at-bat, you still have a chance for a quick homerun.

And I am a believer that 1st inning runs mean a lot psycologically.

ChiSox7
07-20-2005, 10:10 AM
A little too early to tell I think, but we might have to do something before playoff time.

Frank really has become an all or nothing player. Either he hits a HR, walks, or Ks/pops out most of the time. So it feels great when he launches a 3 run bomb like he did off the crappy Drays pitching, but really, really hurts the team when he keeps K'ing or popping out with runners on, which he has done a lot of lately. He has even had trouble moving the runners along.

I love Frank, especially when he dominates, but he's at the point in his career that when he is not hitting bombs for a stretch of time, he's really not helping out very much by driving in runs. Obviously theres no need to worry about Frank individually, especially with a 12 game lead. This is just going to have to be what we will see from Frank for the rest of his career I think. He really wants to get to 500, and has said as much.

Hopefully he gets hot and starts hitting line drives in the gaps instead of trying to pull everything out of the park. He seems to be ducking and diving out of the way of everything and is only 4 for 30 with only TWO walks in that time. He hasn't even been drawing walks of late. They are going after him and getting him.

Should be interesting to see what happens down the stretch.

GAsoxfan
07-20-2005, 10:20 AM
I'm starting to worry about Frank a little bit. The 12 HRs are nice, but the BA is so low. Frank said he wouldn't worry about the BA until he got 100 ABs. Well, guess what? He's at 101 now, with a .218 BA. I'm not too worried yet, but a little bit.

SOXintheBURGH
07-20-2005, 10:22 AM
Give him some time. He's Frank.

34 Inch Stick
07-20-2005, 10:28 AM
I don't like to see a repeat of him throwing his rear end out on every inside pitch but I need more time to before I would make any move. Frank should have had two hits, 2 RBI and a home run last night.

Jerko
07-20-2005, 10:31 AM
What bothers me most it the last 2 games, he failed to get the runner in from 3rd with one out. Granted, one of them was a liner, but he's still far from 100%. With the big lead the Sox have, I say give him a little more time.

CubKilla
07-20-2005, 10:55 AM
Wait and see but don't wait too long. A HR or nothing isn't doing this team any good, for the most part. And his AB's this week, w/exception of his HR AB against DET on Monday, have been brutal.

Carl should be getting more playing time than he has been as of late. CE has been money since Game 1.

tschneid83
07-20-2005, 10:59 AM
I feel that frank should be moved out of the 3 spot.

1. Rowand seems to be getting some things together and hit better when he was in the 3 spot or at least it seemed that way to me.
2. you have your power hitter, which would be frank, in the 4 spot to score home your 1,2,3 hitters when they get on.
3. konerko moves back to the 5 spot to take a little pressure off of him and maybe he can see some better pitches.
4. here is a situation: pods gets on, gooch moves him over, so now with rowand up he could score pods and put himself on 2nd. He then could easily score on a single by frank or konerko depending on who gets the job done. Now if frank was in the three spot in that situation instead of rowand he has to get a double out of konerko to score him home.

Just my 2 cents.....

RallyBowl
07-20-2005, 11:01 AM
wait and see. Frank is still in spring training mode. the more his AB pile up, the more comfortable he will be up there. right now he doesn't look like he can see the ball as well as he usually does, and when you factor that in with not being aggressive (which he isn't most of the time) it spells trouble. give him time, and he will be in midseason form come postseason.
EDIT: of course, I have always liked the idea of aaron 3rd frank 4th, I just dont think we should move frank right now beacause he's not putting up 3 hole numbers.

slavko
07-20-2005, 11:05 AM
wait and see. Frank is still in spring training mode. the more his AB pile up, the more comfortable he will be up there. right now he doesn't look like he can see the ball as well as he usually does, and when you factor that in with not being aggressive (which he isn't most of the time) it spells trouble. give him time, and he will be in midseason form come postseason.
Is he more comfortable now than when he first came back? I'm not.

nedlug
07-20-2005, 12:13 PM
I feel that frank should be moved out of the 3 spot.

1. Rowand seems to be getting some things together and hit better when he was in the 3 spot or at least it seemed that way to me.
2. you have your power hitter, which would be frank, in the 4 spot to score home your 1,2,3 hitters when they get on.
3. konerko moves back to the 5 spot to take a little pressure off of him and maybe he can see some better pitches.
4. here is a situation: pods gets on, gooch moves him over, so now with rowand up he could score pods and put himself on 2nd. He then could easily score on a single by frank or konerko depending on who gets the job done. Now if frank was in the three spot in that situation instead of rowand he has to get a double out of konerko to score him home.

Just my 2 cents.....

ARow? What about JD? He's put up some solid numbers this year, and he's only getting better...

tschneid83
07-20-2005, 12:27 PM
ARow? What about JD? He's put up some solid numbers this year, and he's only getting better...

The only reason I like rowand in that situation is b/c of his speed. your 1, 2, and most of the time 3 hitters are supposed to get on then the 4, 5, 6 bring them in but a lot of players have been swinging better and could be in that spot but i just like rowand in the 3 spot.

CHIsoxNation
07-20-2005, 12:38 PM
My vote goes for Rowand. I think overall he is a pretty good situational hitter and makes a decent amount of contact. If Iguchi can get Pods over to 2nd or 3rd, I have more trust in Rowand getting Pods in then Thomas, at this point in the season.

I think the #3 guy should bat for a pretty high average and still be able to knock them out. I feel Rowand is a perfect candidate. Thomas needs to get everything going again. If you think about it, it's really like Thomas just got done with spring training a couple of weeks ago. I say bump everyone down a spot and slide in Aaron to #3 and see how things go. I think the SOX have a little flexibility to "experiment" with this considering their lead in the division.

Frater Perdurabo
07-20-2005, 12:42 PM
Because of how this team is contructed, I too think it is wise to move Rowand to #3 and Frank to cleanup. Rowand's fourth on the team in OBP (Konerko's third because of all those walks he took early in the year) and has decent speed.

Pods and Iguchi are first and second in OBP on the team. Putting Rowand after them would allow them even more freedom to steal bases. Plus, if Rowand gets aboard, he too is a threat to steal. Over the past three years, Rowand also has hit significantly better (.873 OPS, .515 SLG and .311 AVG.) with runners on base.

As the cleanup hitter, Frank (.604 SLG in 2005) almost always would come to bat with runners aboard.

After that, I'd bat Dye fifth. His .510 SLG is higher than Paulie's .483 SLG. Paulie could bat sixth, AJ seventh, Crede eighth and Uribe ninth. This has the advantage of breaking up the slow-footed Frank and Paulie in the lineup. (Although AJ's GIDP totals might skyrocket.... :redneck)

So, the lineup should be:

Pods - Gooch - Rowand - Frank - Dye - Paulie - AJ - Crede - Uribe

This gets the best OBP the most at-bats at the top of the order, the best sluggers in the middle, and respectable power throughout the bottom. This also makes it easy to substitute Gload and Everett into the lineup without shuffling the other guys around. With everyone knowing their roles, the offense should begin to click and start scoring more runs for Contreras.

Jjav829
07-20-2005, 12:46 PM
No, only because I don't see a better option. I say keep him there for now...but I do worry. When Frank started his run of hitting HRs, I kept wondering why they were pitching him inside. If there's one thing we know, it's that Frank does not have much opposite field power nowadays. So why ever throw him an inside pitch? If you pitch him away, you take away a good amount of his power. The good thing is that strategy takes away half of the plate, meaning Frank's good eye and willingness to take walks should help him get on base more. The bad thing is that we're not going to see him continue the HR pace he was on.

RKMeibalane
07-20-2005, 12:49 PM
No, only because I don't see a better option. I say keep him there for now...but I do worry. When Frank started his run of hitting HRs, I kept wondering why they were pitching him inside. If there's one thing we know, it's that Frank does not have much opposite field power nowadays. So why ever throw him an inside pitch? If you pitch him away, you take away a good amount of his power. The good thing is that strategy takes away half of the plate, meaning Frank's good eye and willingness to take walks should help him get on base more. The bad thing is that we're not going to see him continue the HR pace he was on.

I'm still waiting for him to move closer to the plate so he can drive those outside pitches to center and right more often. I don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but ever since he tore his triceps tendon, Frank hasn't been able to keep his right arm fully extended when he swings the bat. It's not a problem for pitches that are middle of the plate/inside, but whenever he's pitched away, he can't take those pitches to RF. I think he's only had a few home runs to CF/RF in the past few seasons. He used to do that all the time.

tschneid83
07-20-2005, 12:50 PM
So, the lineup should be:

Pods - Gooch - Rowand - Frank - Dye - Paulie - AJ - Crede - Uribe

This gets the best OBP the most at-bats at the top of the order, the best sluggers in the middle, and respectable power throughout the bottom. This also makes it easy to substitute Gload and Everett into the lineup without shuffling the other guys around. With everyone knowing their roles, the offense should begin to click and start scoring more runs for Contreras.

I agree

tsamdog
07-20-2005, 12:52 PM
NO, it ain't broke...... I am aware of the data, but that's the same argument that the nay-sayers have been using since May to predict the downfall of the team. It has not happened.......

It wasn't too long ago that the biggest complaint about Frank was that he walked 'too much' and didn't look to go deep 'enough'. It's interesting how the opinions change depending on what end of the pendulum Frank is on. He is a threat....a major threat at the #3 hole, and will be so in the first inning of every game. I like that.

batmanZoSo
07-20-2005, 12:58 PM
No, only because I don't see a better option. I say keep him there for now...but I do worry. When Frank started his run of hitting HRs, I kept wondering why they were pitching him inside. If there's one thing we know, it's that Frank does not have much opposite field power nowadays. So why ever throw him an inside pitch? If you pitch him away, you take away a good amount of his power. The good thing is that strategy takes away half of the plate, meaning Frank's good eye and willingness to take walks should help him get on base more. The bad thing is that we're not going to see him continue the HR pace he was on.

That might force him to be more selective and find his trademark walk and homer ability where he goes up there looking for something to hit out but is still very patient. He seems way too anxious this year compared to last when he was walking at a high pace. It seems he's so geared for the homer right now, at most he can only check swing at something out of the zone. Many times he's been unable to hold back all together and gave a really late swing at something high or away. It's okay though, you don't forget how to take pitches after being a walk machine for 13 years. If he starts seeing more and more pitches he realizes he can't hit, he'll remember how to lay off them again.

Randar68
07-20-2005, 01:05 PM
I kept wondering why they were pitching him inside. If there's one thing we know, it's that Frank does not have much opposite field power nowadays. So why ever throw him an inside pitch?

No, no,no,no,no,no....no.

Frank still has oppo-power. He has changed his approach after the last 2-3 years pitchers just pounding the hell out of him on the inside and him not being able to handle it. He made the change last year and it resulted in him not being able to cover the outside half of the plate as effectively and thus not going to RF as much. On the other hand, if pitchers adjust and start pitching him away more often, then you will likely see Frank start moving closer to the plate and driving the ball into right-center.

It's not that Frank doesn't have power to RF anymore, it's due to the adjustments he's made to be able to get that inside fastball and drive it into the LF seats that has resulted in him not using the right side with any sort of regularity.

tsamdog
07-20-2005, 01:09 PM
No, no,no,no,no,no....no.

Frank still has oppo-power. He has changed his approach after the last 2-3 years pitchers just pounding the hell out of him on the inside and him not being able to handle it. He made the change last year and it resulted in him not being able to cover the outside half of the plate as effectively and thus not going to RF as much. On the other hand, if pitchers adjust and start pitching him away more often, then you will likely see Frank start moving closer to the plate and driving the ball into right-center.

It's not that Frank doesn't have power to RF anymore, it's due to the adjustments he's made to be able to get that inside fastball and drive it into the LF seats that has resulted in him not using the right side with any sort of regularity.

Exactly......In fact, the balls that have left the yard via the centerfield exit have been pitches on the outer half.

Jjav829
07-20-2005, 01:20 PM
Frank still has oppo-power. He has changed his approach after the last 2-3 years pitchers just pounding the hell out of him on the inside and him not being able to handle it. He made the change last year and it resulted in him not being able to cover the outside half of the plate as effectively and thus not going to RF as much. On the other hand, if pitchers adjust and start pitching him away more often, then you will likely see Frank start moving closer to the plate and driving the ball into right-center.

It's not that Frank doesn't have power to RF anymore, it's due to the adjustments he's made to be able to get that inside fastball and drive it into the LF seats that has resulted in him not using the right side with any sort of regularity.

Ok, that's kind of what I meant, though obviously not so spelled out. Part of his lack of opposite field home runs has been due to his adjusting to inside pitches. Still, you have to admit Frank isn't the opposite field hitter he once was. Besides, this hasn't just been a one year thing. I believe he went about 3 years without hitting a home run to right field. 3 years. That's a hell of a long time.

My point wasn't so much that he can't hit a home run to right field. If he tried to on a regular basis, he's still a strong enough guy that I'm sure he could hit some home runs to right. But he's no longer the hitter that can take any pitch and drive it out. He's been forced to make adjustments so that he has to concentrate his power to one field. You take a guy like Albert Pujols. He has incredible strength and can hit for power at any field. Frank can't do that anymore. If he looks to go opposite way, he's gonna struggle to pull the ball. If he looks to pull the ball as he's doing now, he'll struggle going the other way. He can no longer do what a guy like Pujols can, which is basically take the same approach to every at-bat and be able to adjust to both the inside pitch and the outside pitch.

If you remember, Frank actually admitted his opposite field power wasn't a strength. Going back a few years ago, Frank wasn't hitting for power. Everyone started questioning why. His explanation was that teams had started to adjust to him by pitching him outside. So he explained that to adjust to the pitchers, he had to start looking to go the other way, resulting in fewer home runs.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-20-2005, 01:39 PM
Here's a crazy question. If Frank doesn't bat third, who does? I don't think anyone on the Sox is hitting the ball well right now.

balke
07-20-2005, 01:57 PM
Threads kinda ridiculous. Frank is struggling right now, and maybe Everett needs more time at DH than he's been getting, but you don't move Frank out of the 3 spot. Rowand wasn't really getting the job done in the 3-spot when he was there, and Frank does have a lot of RBI's in ratio to his time back.

Pull Frank aside, try to get him to be more aggressive. Let him rest, let Everett get some time in the 3-spot. Frank should always be there though. When he swings, he hits the ball, and hits it hard. The only thing he's doing wrong now is not swinging. Everyone else in the lineup strikes out swinging in the 3-spot too much, and are less likely to hit a good sac fly.

Its also worth noting that in the runner on 3rd situation yesterday, Frank hit a bullet, but the 3rd baseman was right there.