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View Full Version : Before everyone goes nuts on Contreras, look at this


ChiSox7
07-19-2005, 10:54 PM
Despite what a lot of people may be thinking about Jose this year, he has really been terrific for us all season.

He has had 19 starts so far this year:

In SIXTEEN (16) of those 19 starts he has given up 4 runs or less.
In 12 of those 19 starts he has given up 3 runs or less (11 of which were QS) which is just incredible for Jose.

Coming into the day he had the 20th best ERA among starters in the AL, afterwards I believe it is close to 30th. That puts him right squarely in the 3rd starter bracket, and high in that bracket. (really on the edge of 2/3).

Then man only gets 2.9 (after tonight) runs per games through all 9 innings played.
We have only scored, get this, 2.2 runs per game while he is in there, and he has gotten to the 7th inning in 14 of those starts.

That's why it seems like he's not doing anything right. THe guys play like CRAP while he pitches.

He has wins of 2-1, 2-1, 1-0, 5-3, and 7-2 this year. He's gotten big support in only TWO games this year. That's what leads to a 5-5 record.

Going into the season I find it safe to say that ALL of us would have taken these types of numbers this year. It is really so much better than I thought. Is he an innings eater? No. Is he top of the rotation? No. But if he had Garland's support this year he'd have 11 or 12 wins this year.

In comparison, heres a couple of road ERA's for a couple players.

AJ Burnett - 3.79
Jason Schmidt - 5.22 BOTH IN THE NL

Jose Contreras - 3.50 in the AL.

It's not nearly as bad as we think.

Soxzilla
07-19-2005, 11:04 PM
Thank you. I'm very grateful of what Jose has done for us this year. Sure he is prone to lobbing up some gopher balls every now and then, but when he is on, he is on. Nothing like a fourth starter that can absolutely toast their opposition two-out-of-three starts.

Granted I don't think that he should be starting in the playoffs, unless completely necessary, he deserves to pitch every fifth day until the post-season comes along.

shoota
07-19-2005, 11:09 PM
Despite what a lot of people may be thinking about Jose this year, he has really been terrific for us all season.

He has had 19 starts so far this year:

In SIXTEEN (16) of those 19 starts he has given up 4 runs or less.
In 12 of those 19 starts he has given up 3 runs or less (11 of which were QS) which is just incredible for Jose.

Coming into the day he had the 20th best ERA among starters in the AL, afterwards I believe it is close to 30th. That puts him right squarely in the 3rd starter bracket, and high in that bracket. (really on the edge of 2/3).

Then man only gets 2.9 (after tonight) runs per games through all 9 innings played.
We have only scored, get this, 2.2 runs per game while he is in there, and he has gotten to the 7th inning in 14 of those starts.

That's why it seems like he's not doing anything right. THe guys play like CRAP while he pitches.

He has wins of 2-1, 2-1, 1-0, 5-3, and 7-2 this year. He's gotten big support in only TWO games this year. That's what leads to a 5-5 record.

Going into the season I find it safe to say that ALL of us would have taken these types of numbers this year. It is really so much better than I thought. Is he an innings eater? No. Is he top of the rotation? No. But if he had Garland's support this year he'd have 11 or 12 wins this year.

In comparison, heres a couple of road ERA's for a couple players.

AJ Burnett - 3.79
Jason Schmidt - 5.22 BOTH IN THE NL

Jose Contreras - 3.50 in the AL.

It's not nearly as bad as we think.

Great post. I agree that Jose Contreras has been a big asset to baseball's best team.

I wasn't a big Contreras fan when this season started, but he has earned my respect.

I don't understand why people criticize this guy.

TaylorStSox
07-19-2005, 11:10 PM
Great post. I agree that Jose Contreras has been a big asset to baseball's best team.

I wasn't a big Contreras fan when this season started, but he has earned my respect.

I don't understand why people criticize this guy.


We agree on something. *group hug*

Soxzilla
07-19-2005, 11:14 PM
The only bummer about Contreras is his melon. If he would trust that absolutely filthy fastball of his, instead of that meatball splitter, he would be one of the best pitchers in the AL.

I wonder why it's so difficult for him to realize that.

Beauty35thStreet
07-19-2005, 11:17 PM
We agree on something. *group hug*

Yeah, even I'm agreeing with you all, just disappointed. I forgot how no one could really hit him.

I'm looking forward to him against BoSox this week.

ChiSox7
07-19-2005, 11:18 PM
Oh yah, I forgot to put this in. The 2.9 is bad enough but these are runs we've scored during his last bunch of games,

1,0,7,2,2,4,1,2

That is absolutely nuts.

gobears1987
07-19-2005, 11:20 PM
Despite what a lot of people may be thinking about Jose this year, he has really been terrific for us all season.

He has had 19 starts so far this year:

In SIXTEEN (16) of those 19 starts he has given up 4 runs or less.
In 12 of those 19 starts he has given up 3 runs or less (11 of which were QS) which is just incredible for Jose.

Coming into the day he had the 20th best ERA among starters in the AL, afterwards I believe it is close to 30th. That puts him right squarely in the 3rd starter bracket, and high in that bracket. (really on the edge of 2/3).

Then man only gets 2.9 (after tonight) runs per games through all 9 innings played.
We have only scored, get this, 2.2 runs per game while he is in there, and he has gotten to the 7th inning in 14 of those starts.

That's why it seems like he's not doing anything right. THe guys play like CRAP while he pitches.

He has wins of 2-1, 2-1, 1-0, 5-3, and 7-2 this year. He's gotten big support in only TWO games this year. That's what leads to a 5-5 record.

Going into the season I find it safe to say that ALL of us would have taken these types of numbers this year. It is really so much better than I thought. Is he an innings eater? No. Is he top of the rotation? No. But if he had Garland's support this year he'd have 11 or 12 wins this year.

In comparison, heres a couple of road ERA's for a couple players.

AJ Burnett - 3.79
Jason Schmidt - 5.22 BOTH IN THE NL

Jose Contreras - 3.50 in the AL.

It's not nearly as bad as we think.
Thank you very much for putting this together and shutting up the critics.

BlackHat91
07-19-2005, 11:21 PM
Nice breakdown on Contreras. This is the kind of solid proof that we need to evalutate players. Going on a week to week whim doesnt hold up much.
:contreras:

"Run support, por favor."

Dan H
07-19-2005, 11:23 PM
I am one critic who is not appeased. I had big doubts about this guy when the season began and I still have big doubts. He like to give up home runs with men on base.

shoota
07-19-2005, 11:23 PM
We agree on something. *group hug*



http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0246464/th-24-17C-1-10.jpg
High five
:D:

David Puddy

balke
07-19-2005, 11:26 PM
I am one critic who is not appeased. I had big doubts about this guy when the season began and I still have big doubts. He like to give up home runs with men on base.


Before that HR they showed a stat that said his BAA. w/ RISP was like .187, 4 hr's all season. That's really not bad at all.

SpammySosa
07-19-2005, 11:27 PM
Great post. I agree that Jose Contreras has been a big asset to baseball's best team.

I wasn't a big Contreras fan when this season started, but he has earned my respect.

I don't understand why people criticize this guy.

And of course since you blame Joe Crede for allowing the 3 run homer,Jose's ERA didn't take as big a hit in your scorebook,right?:rolleyes:

bluestar
07-19-2005, 11:28 PM
Excellent analysis.

I just want to add, it is very tough mentally on a pitcher to take the mound and not get the run support game after game. Everyone said Jose looked tired in the sixth inning tonight, and I can't help but wonder how much of that fatigue was mental. He is doing what Ozzie and Coop want now, i.e. he is going after the hitters instead of nibbling every time he gets in a jam. Despite the mistake to Infante and what appeared to be running out of gas in the sixth, I think there are a lot of positives to take from Jose's two starts since the break.

ChiSox7
07-19-2005, 11:30 PM
Excellent analysis.

I just want to add, it is very tough mentally on a pitcher to take the mound and not get the run support game after game. Everyone said Jose looked tired in the sixth inning tonight, and I can't help but wonder how much of that fatigue was mental. He is doing what Ozzie and Coop want now, i.e. he is going after the hitters instead of nibbling every time he gets in a jam. Despite the mistake to Infante and what appeared to be running out of gas in the sixth, I think there are a lot of positives to take from Jose's two starts since the break.

Yah, I mean, It'd be one thing if it was just a couple week stretch, but 2.9 runs scored in your starts would really start to wear on you I would think.

lostletters
07-19-2005, 11:34 PM
Thank you for posting this. He is very strong number four/five guy. He simply lacks run support. He looks so bad to white sox fans because in comparison to Garland, Garcia, and Buerhle. Three pitchers in the top tier of baseball (2,3,7 in ERA of active pitchers in the AL).

JC is one of the better pitchers in the majors, but his team rarely backs him up with the bat as well, which makes him look bad. He leads the team in ND. He keeps us in most games he pitches. He has tough luck.

I will not say trade to upgrade. Because Schmidt is NOT an upgrade. He has been inconsistant and hurt.

Thank you for posting this, I feel the same way. It sucks that he lost, but I think people often forget that he has not been as bad as many people think.

Beauty35thStreet
07-19-2005, 11:40 PM
The big question is whether Contreras/El Duque are #4 pitchers for the series. I'm not going to relish on a player's past when health is an issue.

Thank you for posting this. He is very strong number four/five guy. He simply lacks run support. He looks so bad to white sox fans because in comparison to Garland, Garcia, and Buerhle. Three pitchers in the top tier of baseball (2,3,7 in ERA of active pitchers in the AL).

JC is one of the better pitchers in the majors, but his team rarely backs him up with the bat as well, which makes him look bad. He leads the team in ND. He keeps us in most games he pitches. He has tough luck.

I will not say trade to upgrade. Because Schmidt is NOT an upgrade. He has been inconsistant and hurt.

Thank you for posting this, I feel the same way. It sucks that he lost, but I think people often forget that he has not been as bad as many people think.

MRKARNO
07-19-2005, 11:50 PM
I recognize that he probably is about as good as AJ Burnett (and is actually a very similar pitcher), but here's the real question: Can he beat the Yankees and Red Sox? As much as we don't like talking about these two teams, it's nearly a lock that one will make the playoffs and it's very likely that both make it. It's also very likely that we face the Bosox in the first round. His single best start against Boston (in about 6 of them) was 6 IP and 4 ER. The others were unspeakably awful. The Yankees offense is in the same mold as the Bosox offense and may have similar success against him. I wouldnt worry so much about him against other teams (besides Oakland), but the lack of success against patient offenses is very worrisome, especially when you consider how awful El Duque has been this year. He might even be a worse option at this point. Contreras will be fine for the regular season, it's the postseason I worry about.

ilsox7
07-19-2005, 11:54 PM
I recognize that he probably is about as good as AJ Burnett (and is actually a very similar pitcher), but here's the real question: Can he beat the Yankees and Red Sox? As much as we don't like talking about these two teams, it's nearly a lock that one will make the playoffs and it's very likely that both make it. It's also very likely that we face the Bosox in the first round. His single best start against Boston (in about 6 of them) was 6 IP and 4 ER. The others were unspeakably awful. The Yankees offense is in the same mold as the Bosox offense and may have similar success against him. I wouldnt worry so much about him against other teams (besides Oakland), but the lack of success against patient offenses is very worrisome, especially when you consider how awful El Duque has been this year. He might even be a worse option at this point. Contreras will be fine for the regular season, it's the postseason I worry about.

He wouldn't start against them. Ozzie said tonight that as things stand, his 4 guys for the playoffs are JG, MB, FG, and Orlando.

DickAllen72
07-19-2005, 11:59 PM
Count me in on this group hug! I agree with the original post 100%.

:smile:

Jjav829
07-20-2005, 12:01 AM
Some good stuff there. Can someone forward this thread to Larry Beinfest. Maybe we can help Contreras' value in an A.J. Burnett trade. :thumbsup:

shoota
07-20-2005, 12:02 AM
Nice work ChiSox7.

:threadrules:

MRKARNO
07-20-2005, 12:27 AM
He wouldn't start against them. Ozzie said tonight that as things stand, his 4 guys for the playoffs are JG, MB, FG, and Orlando.

I dont care what El Duque has been able to do in the playoffs in the past. He hasn't proven that he can pitch as well in the regular season as he could in those past years, so why would he magically turn it on in the postseason? Contreras still might be our best option, unless El Duque makes marked improvements in his control down the stretch. But based on what I've seen of El Duque so far, I have no reason to believe that he should be starting a postseason game for us.

Contreras's starts against NYY and Bos are going to be very important in determining where Ozzie should go with this. Contreras has been getting into trobule for different reasons this year (HRs because of too many strikes as opposed to a bajillion walks because of too few) and he is giving up fewer runs as a result and is able to pitch a few more innings. I would worry about him more at the Cell, than say, Yankee Stadium because of how much easier it is to hit one out at the Cell.

ilsox7
07-20-2005, 12:32 AM
I dont care what El Duque has been able to do in the playoffs in the past. He hasn't proven that he can pitch as well in the regular season as he could in those past years, so why would he magically turn it on in the postseason? Contreras still might be our best option, unless El Duque makes marked improvements in his control down the stretch. But based on what I've seen of El Duque so far, I have no reason to believe that he should be starting a postseason game for us.

Well, Ozzie disagrees with you. Just saying what he said.

Jerome
07-20-2005, 12:38 AM
I was a big fan of the trade that brought him over, because I felt that Loazia was done. :redface: Still love the trade though b/c Jose's tremendous potential. Plus KW pretty much stole Contreras from Cashman because of George's impatience.

He really wasn't that impressive for us last year, and of course the horrible spring training I think is what makes Sox fans sweat when he is on the mound.

The fact is, he is last year's Garland, fine for his spot in the rotation. That right arm of his is as talented as there is. But for whatever reason sometimes he just cannot get guys out.

Also, the run support plays a huge key. I belive that Jose is a good pitcher. But NOT good enough to be able to only rely on 3.9 runs a game. 5-5? Please, he is a better pitcher than that. But then again win loss record isn't a very good judge of how good a pitcher is anyway IMO. (Danny Wright's 14 win season with the 4+ ERA comes to mind)

TheOldRoman
07-20-2005, 12:42 AM
especially when you consider how awful El Duque has been this year.
OK, I was listening until you said that. Awful? Compared to Buehrle maybe. You have obviously forgotten Jon Rauch, Felix Diaz, Arnie Munoz, Danny Wright, and Jon Garland circa 2003.

Lip Man 1
07-20-2005, 12:49 AM
My impression of Jose is that he has a million dollar arm and a ten cent head. There are numbers and then there is reality and the reality is that in my opinion, I'd hold my breath for the entire two and a half or three hours that he'd be pitching in a post season situation.

Can someone post his numbers from the post season? I'd be curious what they are.

Sorry... I have confidence that Buehrle, Garcia and to a certain extent Garland can do the job in October. I have very little that Jose can and unless The Duke can stop giving up four runs in six innings of work he's useless in October as well.

You don't need four starters in the first round, most teams have needed them in the LCS and the World Series.

In a best of seven situation are you willing to chance losing one game because Jose is out there?

Make the moves Kenny.

Lip

SpartanSoxFan
07-20-2005, 12:49 AM
Plus KW pretty much stole Contreras from Cashman because of George's impatience.

I like Contreras for the most part, but what exactly do you mean by the notion that we 'stole' him??? At $8.5 Million, he certainly isn't cheap.

TheOldRoman
07-20-2005, 12:54 AM
I like Contreras for the most part, but what exactly do you mean by the notion that we 'stole' him??? At $8.5 Million, he certainly isn't cheap.
Well, we gave up Loaiza, who was pitching horribly at the time, and got the Yankees to pay $2.5 mil a year through next year. Look at the contracts mediocre pitchers such as Benson and Milton got this offseason. The Sox are paying $6 mil for Contreras, and that is an absolute bargain.

The Dude
07-20-2005, 12:56 AM
Despite what a lot of people may be thinking about Jose this year, he has really been terrific for us all season.

He has had 19 starts so far this year:

In SIXTEEN (16) of those 19 starts he has given up 4 runs or less.
In 12 of those 19 starts he has given up 3 runs or less (11 of which were QS) which is just incredible for Jose.

Coming into the day he had the 20th best ERA among starters in the AL, afterwards I believe it is close to 30th. That puts him right squarely in the 3rd starter bracket, and high in that bracket. (really on the edge of 2/3).

Then man only gets 2.9 (after tonight) runs per games through all 9 innings played.
We have only scored, get this, 2.2 runs per game while he is in there, and he has gotten to the 7th inning in 14 of those starts.

That's why it seems like he's not doing anything right. THe guys play like CRAP while he pitches.

He has wins of 2-1, 2-1, 1-0, 5-3, and 7-2 this year. He's gotten big support in only TWO games this year. That's what leads to a 5-5 record.

Going into the season I find it safe to say that ALL of us would have taken these types of numbers this year. It is really so much better than I thought. Is he an innings eater? No. Is he top of the rotation? No. But if he had Garland's support this year he'd have 11 or 12 wins this year.

In comparison, heres a couple of road ERA's for a couple players.

AJ Burnett - 3.79
Jason Schmidt - 5.22 BOTH IN THE NL

Jose Contreras - 3.50 in the AL.

It's not nearly as bad as we think.
Post of the week! I knew his run support was bad, but Jesus! Maybe Jose needs to take the lineup out for dinner or something to get them on his good side.:D:

Lip Man 1
07-20-2005, 12:57 AM
One other number that may be interesting is that according to Mark Gonzales' story tonight in the Tribune Jose has given up a home run in 12 of his last 16 starts.

Lip

balke
07-20-2005, 01:31 AM
My impression of Jose is that he has a million dollar arm and a ten cent head. There are numbers and then there is reality and the reality is that in my opinion, I'd hold my breath for the entire two and a half or three hours that he'd be pitching in a post season situation.

Can someone post his numbers from the post season? I'd be curious what they are.

Sorry... I have confidence that Buehrle, Garcia and to a certain extent Garland can do the job in October. I have very little that Jose can and unless The Duke can stop giving up four runs in six innings of work he's useless in October as well.

You don't need four starters in the first round, most teams have needed them in the LCS and the World Series.

In a best of seven situation are you willing to chance losing one game because Jose is out there?

Make the moves Kenny.

Lip

Or put Contreras in for 4 innings, and El Duque in for 4 innings in game 4. They are both good enough for the playoffs, just not likely to go the distance flawlessly. Contreras caught some bad breaks early in the game, the last inning he had was pathetic, but he also could've been pulled. This Tigers lineup is a great hitting lineup with everyone now healthy, it also has some speed.

I think Contreras was mixing up his pitches well through most of the game. He was throwing fastballs, and his splitter looked great. I still think he's better than any option offered so far, especially if Marte is part of the deal.

owensmouth
07-20-2005, 01:46 AM
Contreras caught some bad breaks early in the game

What bad breaks? Two singles and a home run don't constitute bad breaks, but bad pitching. Hanging a forkball to a major league hitter is a decidedly bad idea.

chisox06
07-20-2005, 02:18 AM
OK, I was listening until you said that. Awful? Compared to Buehrle maybe. You have obviously forgotten Jon Rauch, Felix Diaz, Arnie Munoz, Danny Wright, and Jon Garland circa 2003.

Yup, how easily we forget about out 5th starter spot in the past. We have 5 pitchers in our rotation that can keep us in ball games, I cant remember the last time we could say that.

MHOUSE
07-20-2005, 04:20 AM
I like Contreras and am more than satisfied with what he has done all season. Consistency is the key word. However, the Red Sox destroyed him during his Yankee career just about every time out. Hopefully he can shake that monkey.

Mohoney
07-20-2005, 06:36 AM
Well, we gave up Loaiza, who was pitching horribly at the time, and got the Yankees to pay $2.5 mil a year through next year. Look at the contracts mediocre pitchers such as Benson and Milton got this offseason. The Sox are paying $6 mil for Contreras, and that is an absolute bargain.

The case for Kenny Williams to win Executive of the Year really gains steam when you look at what he's getting for his money with the pitching staff.

Garcia is at $8 million this season, while Buehrle and Contreras are both at $6 million, El Duque is at $3.5 million, and Garland is at $3.4 million. As for the bullpen, Hermanson is at $2 million, Vizcaino is at $1.3 million, Marte is at $1.25 million, Politte is at $1 million, Cotts is at $330 thousand, and I think, but I'm not totally sure, that Jenks is making the league minimum. We still have a few days to find out what our financial obligation to Shingo will be, as it is still in doubt. If we have to eat his entire contract, it would be $2.525 million.

ChiSox7
07-20-2005, 07:48 AM
What bad breaks? Two singles and a home run don't constitute bad breaks, but bad pitching. Hanging a forkball to a major league hitter is a decidedly bad idea.

It's a bad break when a ball is hit RIGHT to your 3rd baseman and he doesn't make the play for the third out. If you give a team 4 outs in an inning chances are they will hurt you for it.

It's a play that the guys have to make behind Jose, especially considering they score no runs for him.

wdelaney72
07-20-2005, 09:51 AM
Sorry, but this is a guy with some of the best stuff on the team. Yet, he refuses to listen to anyone. I think he's untrustworthy, overpaid, and a complete dunce. Batting average may be low BECUASE HE'S TOO BUSY WALKING people.

fquaye149
07-20-2005, 10:01 AM
One other number that may be interesting is that according to Mark Gonzales' story tonight in the Tribune Jose has given up a home run in 12 of his last 16 starts.

Lip

Lip: last year Mark started 35 games and gave up 33 HR. Idk if that stat tells the full story. (or if mine does)

downstairs
07-20-2005, 10:11 AM
Yup, how easily we forget about out 5th starter spot in the past. We have 5 pitchers in our rotation that can keep us in ball games, I cant remember the last time we could say that.

Absolutely! Compare our pitchers, in order, to any other MLB team and I think we're better or at least just as good.

How does Contreras stack up against Randy Johnson, Chris Carpenter? It doesn't matter. Look at our 4 against their 4, our 5 against their 5...

Hangar18
07-20-2005, 10:43 AM
I just had this conversation last nite!!!!! I was saying that despite Contreras
being so good then bad, hes got a lot of no-decisions early on, and hes MUCH better than a minor-leaguer in that spot and has been the DIFFERENCE in us being just good or great. It makes me scream that we didnt get a real pitcher in 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004 to fill that spot.

Were doing good because the SOX finally filled some of their holes instead of creating holes ........

bumptious96
07-20-2005, 10:56 AM
I totally agree that Jose has filled in nicely in his spot. Its also exactly why I don't think we need to trade for another starter since we'll only need 4 for the playoffs and Contreras will likely go to the pen for those games. Just let the guy pitch every five days and let Cooper help him improve his game.

Flight #24
07-20-2005, 11:01 AM
Sorry, but this is a guy with some of the best stuff on the team. Yet, he refuses to listen to anyone. I think he's untrustworthy, overpaid, and a complete dunce. Batting average may be low BECUASE HE'S TOO BUSY WALKING people.

While your comment is appropriate, it loses steam when you make it after a night in which he walked no one. Which follows a night in which he walked 3 in 7IP (not horrible).

veeter
07-20-2005, 11:02 AM
Sorry, but this is a guy with some of the best stuff on the team. Yet, he refuses to listen to anyone. I think he's untrustworthy, overpaid, and a complete dunce. Batting average may be low BECUASE HE'S TOO BUSY WALKING people. You're right, his walk total sucks. Every time stupid DJ says, "opponents are only hitting .208 off him" I say yeah but he's walked 52 guys! But he's hasn't been nibbling lately so he's been better. His last three starts I think he has been listening. He's been crisper and more efficient. He just got beat by a good hitting team last nite. And I'm sorry but Crede's play was a error.

RallyBowl
07-20-2005, 11:08 AM
good post chisox7. you sir, are the man!

Lip Man 1
07-20-2005, 12:27 PM
Took a check of his post season numbers...found it on retro sheet. He's lost two post season games and has an ERA of over five.

Not very encouraging.

Lip

Madvora
07-20-2005, 12:30 PM
Despite what a lot of people may be thinking about Jose this year, he has really been terrific for us all season.

He has had 19 starts so far this year:

In SIXTEEN (16) of those 19 starts he has given up 4 runs or less.
In 12 of those 19 starts he has given up 3 runs or less (11 of which were QS) which is just incredible for Jose.

Coming into the day he had the 20th best ERA among starters in the AL, afterwards I believe it is close to 30th. That puts him right squarely in the 3rd starter bracket, and high in that bracket. (really on the edge of 2/3).

Then man only gets 2.9 (after tonight) runs per games through all 9 innings played.
We have only scored, get this, 2.2 runs per game while he is in there, and he has gotten to the 7th inning in 14 of those starts.

That's why it seems like he's not doing anything right. THe guys play like CRAP while he pitches.

He has wins of 2-1, 2-1, 1-0, 5-3, and 7-2 this year. He's gotten big support in only TWO games this year. That's what leads to a 5-5 record.

Going into the season I find it safe to say that ALL of us would have taken these types of numbers this year. It is really so much better than I thought. Is he an innings eater? No. Is he top of the rotation? No. But if he had Garland's support this year he'd have 11 or 12 wins this year.

In comparison, heres a couple of road ERA's for a couple players.

AJ Burnett - 3.79
Jason Schmidt - 5.22 BOTH IN THE NL

Jose Contreras - 3.50 in the AL.

It's not nearly as bad as we think.

Hey man, your post just got mentioned on the Carmen and Silvy show on ESPN1000. An email was sent in by "Paul in Homer Glen"

ChiSox7
07-20-2005, 12:52 PM
Hey man, your post just got mentioned on the Carmen and Silvy show on ESPN1000. An email was sent in by "Paul in Homer Glen"

Thanks for telling me. That's pretty cool. :cool:

And thanks to Paul for letting the radio world know about it!

Beauty35thStreet
07-20-2005, 01:32 PM
Sweet job ChiSox7



Thanks for telling me. That's pretty cool. :cool:

And thanks to Paul for letting the radio world know about it!

balke
07-20-2005, 01:50 PM
W/o living and dying by the stat sheet, and by actually watching Jose's outings, I think its a lot more evident he is listening to coaches and catchers, and is using his fastball more. The Forkball was his out pitch last night, and worked well til people started guessing. There were a few flyouts and hits off the Forkball, that I still don't know how the batter made contact. Its a nasty pitch.

He tired in the 6th, and lost his fastball. That was the main factor in getting all those runs against him. The runs all coming with 2 outs is also telling more that the batter with the RBI may have just had good at-bats. I believe it was Infante who not only homered, but took Contreres about 11 pitches deep into one at-bat with foul balls.

Bottomline, I've said it over and over in other threads, there's noone out there on the table that's worth Contreras and Marte. Contreras is better than El Duque IMO, but even El Duque's been good this season, and he may be very valuable in the playoffs. Fill out the Bullpen top to bottom with studs by adding Wagner, and you can have 4 innings of Contreras, Cotts in the 5th and 6th, Marte in the 7th, Politte in the 8th, Hermanson and Wagner in the 9th. That's what I'd like to see. /pipedream.

akingamongstmen
07-20-2005, 03:01 PM
One factor lost in the discussion of run support is that Jose takes an incredibly long time to pitch. Every pitch he throws is accompanied by an awful lot of deep breaths and overthinking. That lulls the defense to sleep, and consequently can impact their energy level at the plate. That said, Jose is doing an incredible job for a 4th/5th starter, and we absolutely should hang on to him.

Jerome
07-20-2005, 05:18 PM
I like Contreras for the most part, but what exactly do you mean by the notion that we 'stole' him??? At $8.5 Million, he certainly isn't cheap.

Yes, i should have realized his large salary. I don't think the Yankees are too concerned with money though. Plus they just let Loaiza go, now they have nothing to show for the trade.

BridgePortNative
07-20-2005, 05:42 PM
Yes, i should have realized his large salary. I don't think the Yankees are too concerned with money though. Plus they just let Loaiza go, now they have nothing to show for the trade.

Loaiza is doing great in Washinton, but isn't getting good run support. El Conde is a #3, #4 starter now, both they gave up on and are doing way better, imagine if they kept Esteban, he would be an ace with the Yankee offense giving the run support.

owensmouth
07-20-2005, 06:29 PM
Yes, i should have realized his large salary. I don't think the Yankees are too concerned with money though. Plus they just let Loaiza go, now they have nothing to show for the trade.
Does the name Randy Johnson mean anything to you? Cashman needed to dump Contreras and his contract. Cashman was pissed about the White Sox getting Garcia last year and he decided to kill two birds with one stone. He got the Sox to trade Esteban (who was no better, but would be off the books in October) for JC and his 17 million contract. Remember, the Yankees not only had to pay that 17 million, but also the 3 million signing bonus (which they still have to pay) plus about 3 million per year more as a penalty tax. Unloading Contreras removed roughly 26 million from their books. They used that money to get Randy Johnson.

By the way, if money meant nothing to the Yankees, they would have also gone after Beltran.

maurice
07-20-2005, 08:13 PM
At $8.5 Million, he certainly isn't cheap.

Yes, i should have realized his large salary.

As noted elsewhere in this thread, the Sox only pay $6 mil. of his salary. That's actually not a bad deal for a veteran pitcher with his ERA in the AL.