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White Sox Josh
07-02-2005, 01:16 AM
have at it.
Positives:
Vizcaino(pitched damn well)
Shingo(besides that last inning which wasn't all his fault)
The offense got 2 runs off of Harden

Negatives:
Walks
Contreras
Cotts
Playing in Oakland.

dcb33
07-02-2005, 01:18 AM
Hopefully Hawk won't go to the same restaurant to have salmon steaks before tomorrow night's game...

Cowhead418
07-02-2005, 01:18 AM
Eh. Just go get 'em tomorrow I guess.

BeviBall!
07-02-2005, 01:18 AM
It's Oakland and it's tiring.

They're on an 8-game winning streak and voodoo on their side and we have our two all-stars up next. Who will win? Your guess is as good as mine.

SOXfnNlansing
07-02-2005, 01:18 AM
we'll see if we can get them tomorrow....... remember 8:05pm start

JB98
07-02-2005, 01:19 AM
It's Oakland and it's tiring.

They're on an 8-game winning streak and voodoo on their side and we have our two all-stars up next. Who will win? Your guess is as good as mine.

Jon threw a shutout last time he pitched in Oakland. That's the only silver lining I have for you right now.

We had a promising first inning. After that, this game was a steaming pile of crap. Let's get them tomorrow.

mccoydp
07-02-2005, 01:21 AM
Yuck.

Go get 'em, Garland!

BeviBall!
07-02-2005, 01:21 AM
Ah! Now we have to suffer through Chuck Garfein's hair plugs on the post game. Sandman cometh.

RowanDye
07-02-2005, 01:22 AM
Come back and get em' tomorrow...(er today)

White Sox Josh
07-02-2005, 01:22 AM
all i can say is....
:chunks:

ShoelessJoeS
07-02-2005, 01:23 AM
all around a pretty bad game on both sides. on a good note, thank God Garland and Buehrle pitch back-to-back, for bullpen necessaries (contreras loves to pitch 5 or so innings each outing)

RadioheadRocks
07-02-2005, 01:24 AM
This is where Nancy would be playing "The sun'll come out, tomorrow...":nancy

The Wimperoo
07-02-2005, 01:24 AM
That was a painful game to watch. Garland and Buehrle will get them back on track this weekend.

Can AJ not catch Contreras anymore please?

Mr. White Sox
07-02-2005, 01:26 AM
I'm not trying to be a dark cloud or anything, but I have a legitimate baseball question. Why would you put a guy who just got called up into a bases loaded, one out situation when you have other guys in the bullpen who have a day of rest thanks to Freddy's CG? This one decision obviously was not the deciding factor of the game, but I was just wondering what people thought about it.

oh, and 10BB, HPB and 3WP? That would = http://www.mpt.net.mm/planning/present.jpg

MUsoxfan
07-02-2005, 01:26 AM
This loss is not a surprise. Contreras vs. Harden?! The outcome was hardly unpredictable. Good news is the rest of the series is easily winnable.

JB98
07-02-2005, 01:27 AM
That was a painful game to watch. Garland and Buehrle will get them back on track this weekend.

Can AJ not catch Contreras anymore please?

That's interesting. I remember posting after JC lost to Arizona that I didn't think Widge should catch him anymore because he was constantly getting shaken off. Well, JC is constantly shaking off AJ too. I don't think the catcher is the problem.

chitownhawkfan
07-02-2005, 01:27 AM
1. Does Contreras have any huevos, he is so timid when he pitches he is just a mental case. I hate watching him it is insanely frustrating and he makes me want to pull my hair out.
2. Where in the hell did Hawk go during the eigth inning, was he napping or what the hell was he doing? He was obviously in the booth because he muttered two or three things but that was it. I was waiting for "He Gone" and instead I heard "got him", weak.
3. Didnt that seem like a tough situation to put in a pitcher who had just come up from the minors, but he did look decent
4. Those air horns or whatever the hell they were drove me crazy:angry:

Either way we have our two cy young horses pitching so hopefully we end this dreadful streak at that dump in Oakland.

:andy
Lets end this west coast drought

ShoelessJoeS
07-02-2005, 01:27 AM
That was a painful game to watch. Garland and Buehrle will get them back on track this weekend.

Can AJ not catch Contreras anymore please?
as much as i would love to believe it was AJs fault, im pretty sure JC has a long history of control problems. AJ deserves a great deal of credit for the success of this pitching staff

iamkoza
07-02-2005, 01:28 AM
That was a painful game to watch. Garland and Buehrle will get them back on track this weekend.

Can AJ not catch Contreras anymore please?

is it aj's fault that he cant throw strikes? It's not aj's fault contreras gets pouned everytime he gets behind in a count. I dont get throwing a forkball when u are behind in the count. Is it that hard to throw a fastball to get ahead of the hitters, especially a team with absolutly no power?

Frater Perdurabo
07-02-2005, 01:28 AM
OK, I'm still on the bandwagon for the Sox and I couldn't be happier about their record to date. I still think they will win the division and have a great shot at the World Series. This should establish my credentials as a non-Dark Cloud.

That being said, Contreras needs to be trapped in a burlap sack and beaten with reeds and tube socks filled with cue balls.
:angry::angry::angry:

There is no excuse for walking that many Oakland batters. There is no excuse for throwing three wild pitches. (Even though AJ isn't the world's best defensive catcher, he doesn't let strikes get past him.)

Contreras has a $10 million arm and a ten cent brain.

He's clearly capable of throwing strikes. Therefore, he must be unwilling to do so. He deliberately CHOOSES to not throw strikes. Why should opposing hitters even swing? They might as well stand their with their bats on their shoulders.

I don't want someone who by comparison makes Forest Gump seem like Albert Einstein anywhere near the pitchers' mound during the playoffs.

JB98
07-02-2005, 01:28 AM
I'm not trying to be a dark cloud or anything, but I have a legitimate baseball question. Why would you put a guy who just got called up into a bases loaded, one out situation when you have other guys in the bullpen who have a day of rest thanks to Freddy's CG? This one decision obviously was not the deciding factor of the game, but I was just wondering what people thought about it.

I don't have a problem with it. It either has to be Walker or Vizcaino. Those are are long guys at this point.

Irishsox1
07-02-2005, 01:29 AM
Other than the first inning, that was some classic corpse ball on offense. Yes, the pitching was bad, but the offense sucked also.

Hopefully, they will bring their bats to the stadium tomorrow.

ShoelessJoeS
07-02-2005, 01:29 AM
Is it that hard to throw a fastball to get ahead of the hitters, especially a team with absolutly no power?
apparently. :(:

ShoelessJoeS
07-02-2005, 01:31 AM
I don't want someone who by comparison makes Forest Gump seem like Albert Einstein anywhere near the pitchers' mound during the playoffs.
i agree, its sad...but true

Frater Perdurabo
07-02-2005, 01:31 AM
apparently. :(:

Apparently when Contreras has a lower IQ than Forest Gump. We'll just call him "Bubba" Contreras.

Lip Man 1
07-02-2005, 01:31 AM
Just don't get swept and you have a 4-2 road trip. End of story.

Also in my opinion with Contreras being Contreras, McCarthy's inexperience and Hernandez's 'iffy' status, 'it's time' for Kenny to go out and get another starting pitcher for insurance.

As Hal would say you never have enough pitching.

Lip

TomParrish79
07-02-2005, 01:32 AM
we'll get em tomorrow

ShoelessJoeS
07-02-2005, 01:33 AM
Apparently when Contreras has a lower IQ than Forest Gump. We'll just call him "Bubba" Contreras.
:rolling: thanks for the comic relief frater, we all needed that

Frater Perdurabo
07-02-2005, 01:33 AM
Just don't get swept and you have a 4-2 road trip. End of story.

Also in my opinion with Contreras being Contreras, McCarthy's inexperience and Hernandez's 'iffy' status, 'it's time' for Kenny to go out and get another starting pitcher for insurance.

As Hal would say you never have enough pitching.

Lip

I agree. Unfortunately, potential trading partners will hold the Sox feet to the fire and demand McCarthy and Anderson for someone like, say, Todd Ritchie.
:mad:

BeviBall!
07-02-2005, 01:34 AM
I'm not trying to be a dark cloud or anything, but I have a legitimate baseball question. Why would you put a guy who just got called up into a bases loaded, one out situation when you have other guys in the bullpen who have a day of rest thanks to Freddy's CG?

The organization must owe this kid big time. Why was he brought in during that Angels game? If anyone defines 'mop up', it's the Walkman.

ChiSoxGirl
07-02-2005, 01:34 AM
Just a thought running through my mind at half past midnight, and after a horrendous game in the House of Horrors, but maybe Contreras is injured?? He's had 3 or 4 consecutive starts where the only thing about him that's been consistent is his inconsistency and wildness. Tonight's stellar performance chalked up 7 BBs and 3 WPs in 4 1/3 innings! And weren't Dr. Herm and Ozzie out there in the 3rd or 4th attending to him, and he said he could go??? I don't have cable so I didn't see the game, but Rooney & Farmer reported that. I just can't help but wonder.... :?:

Mr. White Sox
07-02-2005, 01:34 AM
Just don't get swept and you have a 4-2 road trip. End of story.

Also in my opinion with Contreras being Contreras, McCarthy's inexperience and Hernandez's 'iffy' status, 'it's time' for Kenny to go out and get another starting pitcher for insurance.

As Hal would say you never have enough pitching.

Lip

I was just about to post this. Contreras has been the most inconsistent starter, with four straight wayyyy below average starts. Even a guy like Ted Lilly could help this team out; I don't recommend selling the farm for Zito or Schmidt.

Frater Perdurabo
07-02-2005, 01:35 AM
:rolling: thanks for the comic relief frater, we all needed that

He kind of looks like him, too. Maybe he has a future in the "shrimpin' bidness."

"Shrimp burger, shrimp sandwich, BBQ shrimp, shrimp kabob..." SHRIMP BRAIN!

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 01:36 AM
OK, I'm still on the bandwagon for the Sox and I couldn't be happier about their record to date. I still think they will win the division and have a great shot at the World Series. This should establish my credentials as a non-Dark Cloud.

That being said, Contreras needs to be trapped in a burlap sack and beaten with reeds and tube socks filled with cue balls.
:angry::angry::angry:

There is no excuse for walking that many Oakland batters. There is no excuse for throwing three wild pitches. (Even though AJ isn't the world's best defensive catcher, he doesn't let strikes get past him.)

Contreras has a $10 million arm and a ten cent brain.

He's clearly capable of throwing strikes. Therefore, he must be unwilling to do so. He deliberately CHOOSES to not throw strikes. Why should opposing hitters even swing? They might as well stand their with their bats on their shoulders.

I don't want someone who by comparison makes Forest Gump seem like Albert Einstein anywhere near the pitchers' mound during the playoffs.Relax. Did you become a Sox fan a week ago? This is Oakland. This is what happens. If it happens someplace else, I'll worry. This is the Bermuda Triangle.

ShoelessJoeS
07-02-2005, 01:38 AM
I agree. Unfortunately, potential trading partners will hold the Sox feet to the fire and demand McCarthy and Anderson for someone like, say, Todd Ritchie.
:mad:
no kidding, in the perfect world we would be able to pull jim hendry type moves and trade JC and his overpaid cuban butt and get a quality starter while still keeping BMac

(wakes up)

OMG! i just had the most wonderful dream...

RadioheadRocks
07-02-2005, 01:38 AM
Saw the Sox play in Oakland in person back in September of 93, right before we clinched the division. We won that game too... maybe I should go back there...

Parrothead
07-02-2005, 01:41 AM
Is there a left hander in minors somewhere that is better than Walker? He looks pitiful everytime he has been in this year.

MUsoxfan
07-02-2005, 01:42 AM
Is there a left hander in minors somewhere that is better than Walker? He looks pitiful everytime he has been in this year.

We don't necessarily need a LH relief pitcher to replace Marte. We need a relief pitcher that can get LH batters out

White Sox Josh
07-02-2005, 01:43 AM
no kidding, in the perfect world we would be able to pull jim hendry type moves and trade JC and his overpaid cuban butt and get a quality starter while still keeping BMac

(wakes up)

OMG! i just had the most wonderful dream...I'm so sick of everybody kissing Jim Hendry's ass. He has made bad moves to and paid for them. The Sammy Sosa trade was clearly lopsided in favor of the orioles as Hairston has sucked. Also Farnsworth might be an All Star this year. I'll take Kenny Williams over Hendry any day.

Jerome
07-02-2005, 01:43 AM
:angry:
how many of these Walks are due to crappy sox pitching as opposed to the patience of the A's hitters? At least make them work for it!

Contreras is so frustrating. Now I know how Cub fans felt about Farnsworth.

JB98
07-02-2005, 01:43 AM
I agree. Unfortunately, potential trading partners will hold the Sox feet to the fire and demand McCarthy and Anderson for someone like, say, Todd Ritchie.
:mad:

Frater, if that's what potential trading partners do, then KW gives them the finger and we move on. As it stands right now, we have enough pitching to get to the playoffs. The question is, do we have enough pitching to win in the playoffs? You need four starters, not five, in the postseason. We can go to war against anybody with Mark, Jon and Freddy. If El Duque gets healthy, or if JC figures it out, there's our fourth playoff starter and we're fine. In terms of starting pitching, I don't believe we are in a desperate enough situation to part with any of our top prospects.

chitownhawkfan
07-02-2005, 01:44 AM
http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0109830/th-1-4.jpg (http://www.imdb.com/gallery/ss/0109830/Ss/0109830/1-4.jpg?path=pgallery&path_key=Williamson,%20Mykelti)
shrimp salad, shrimp scampi, shrimp kabob...
:contreras:
it is my long lost brother

"Contreras has a $10Million Dollar Arm and a 10 cent head"
I dont remember who posted this quote but it is classic

ShoelessJoeS
07-02-2005, 01:44 AM
I'm so sick of everybody kissing Jim Hendry's ass. He has made bad moves to and paid for them. The Sammy Sosa trade was clearly lopsided in favor of the orioles as Hairston has sucked. Also Farnsworth might be an All Star this year. I'll take Kenny Williams over Hendry any day.
this coming from a kid who thinks randa is an upgrade from crede....HA!

lostletters
07-02-2005, 01:44 AM
Widger pitching JC is EVEN WORSE then AJ. His WORST games have been with Widger.

As far is this Oakland game...well its Oakland. I did not expect them to win this game. No day off and a flight from Detriot. They probably got in very late last night.

The person who schedules the White Sox is a total prick. Somebody needs to complain and fix the problems with west coast trips. For one the sox should not even be playing Oakland at home six games. For two if we were to play them, it would be better if it was scheduled reasonably, which means days off. This no days off thing is total crap. It is like a garunteed loss for the white sox.

I hate Oakland. I really cannot totally blame JC despite the absolutely horrid performance. Any pitcher would have done poorly.

It was a tough loss, but this is one of those games that for the most part can be blamed on scheduling.

Lip Man 1
07-02-2005, 01:44 AM
From the AP story on the game just something to keep in mind with Hernandez and Marte out till the All Farce Break:

"Contreras, 0-3 with 16 walks in his last four starts, rubbed his right calf in pain during the fourth inning."

Isn't that the leg that was giving him trouble earlier this season?

Go get someone Kenny....me thinks Jose and Orlando are going to be 'iffy' for the rest of the season.

Lip

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 01:44 AM
Frater, if that's what potential trading partners do, then KW gives them the finger and we move on. As it stands right now, we have enough pitching to get to the playoffs. The question is, do we have enough pitching to win in the playoffs? You need four starters, not five, in the postseason. We can go to war against anybody with Mark, Jon and Freddy. If El Duque gets healthy, or if JC figures it out, there's our fourth playoff starter and we're fine. In terms of starting pitching, I don't believe we are in a desperate enough situation to part with any of our top prospects.You are correct, unless you think it makes sense to totally freak out about a game in Oakland. :?:

JB98
07-02-2005, 01:45 AM
I'm so sick of everybody kissing Jim Hendry's ass. He has made bad moves to and paid for them. The Sammy Sosa trade was clearly lopsided in favor of the orioles as Hairston has sucked. Also Farnsworth might be an All Star this year. I'll take Kenny Williams over Hendry any day.

I agree that people kiss Hendry's ass excessively. But you may be interested to know Sammy is hitting .227. That trade was NOT lopsided in favor of the Orioles. It is an example of a trade that helped neither team.

White Sox Josh
07-02-2005, 01:45 AM
this coming from a kid who thinks randa is an upgrade from crede....HA!the stats speak for themselves. Yeah he is an upgrade however as long as Crede can hit .250 with 25-30 HR's and play great defense than i would be OK with that.

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 01:45 AM
From the AP story on the game just something to keep in mind with Hernandez and Marte out till the All Farce Break:

"Contreras, 0-3 with 16 walks in his last four starts, rubbed his right calf in pain during the fourth inning."

Isn't that the leg that was giving him trouble earlier this season?

Go get someone Kenny....me thinks Jose and Orlando are going to be 'iffy' for the rest of the season.

LipYeah, and your boy Kenny Rogers is a little "iffy" for the next 20 games. :rolleyes:

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 01:46 AM
I agree that people kiss Hendry's ass excessively. But you may be interested to know Sammy is hitting .227. That trade was NOT lopsided in favor of the Orioles. It is an example of a trade that helped neither team.Uhhhh, and what did anybody expect the World's Largest Pharmacy to hit without Nandrolone? :redneck

:nandrolone

I have never used an illegal drug, I mean something that you can get a prescription for under some condition in some country.

White Sox Josh
07-02-2005, 01:47 AM
I agree that people kiss Hendry's ass excessively. But you may be interested to know Sammy is hitting .227. That trade was NOT lopsided in favor of the Orioles. It is an example of a trade that helped neither team.yeah but the orioles are only paying him $3 Million or something like that. So if he puts up Jose Valentine numbers than that would be considered good.

StillMissOzzie
07-02-2005, 01:48 AM
This loss is not a surprise. Contreras vs. Harden?! The outcome was hardly unpredictable. Good news is the rest of the series is easily winnable.

Gotta agree. On pitching matchups alone, this one looked like the one the Sox were most likely to lose, but I didn't think it would be so damn ugly. Geez, all those BB's and WP's!

:hawk
"Mercy!"

SMO
:angry:

ShoelessJoeS
07-02-2005, 01:48 AM
the stats speak for themselves. Yeah he is an upgrade however as long as Crede can hit .250 with 25-30 HR's and play great defense than i would be OK with that.
from somebody that bats 8th or 9th in the lineup, id consider ourselves lucky

Mr. White Sox
07-02-2005, 01:49 AM
People kiss JH's ass because he traded Bobby Hill for Aramis Ramirez.

Frater Perdurabo
07-02-2005, 01:49 AM
Relax. Did you become a Sox fan a week ago? This is Oakland. This is what happens. If it happens someplace else, I'll worry. This is the Bermuda Triangle.

Are you saying we should just sit back and happily accept when the Sox pitcher has 4.1 innings of absolute cerebral flatulence, just because it's Oakland and it's "what happens?"

I can accept when the Sox get beat when the opposing team out-hits them. I don't like it, but I accept it. What I can't stand is when one particular Sox pitcher contiues to shoot himself and the team in the foot by throwing balls and wild pitches.

If this is "what happens," and if we should just expect Contreras would single-handedly lose the game by walking and wild pitching his way out of the game early, I'd just as soon the Sox have forfeited tonight to save the bullpen. Really, though, I'd rather Contreras just throw strikes and trust his stuff and his defense. I seriously think he's just too much of a mental midget, however.

Is there any reason to think Don Cooper is giving Contreras fundamentally different advice from what he tells Buehrle, Garland and Garcia: "work quickly, throw strikes, and trust the defense."? I think Cooper has proven himself to be a good pitching coach. And Guillen clearly can speak to Contreras in his native tongue, so there is no "language barrier" to overcome. So therefore, the only explanation MUST be Contreras DELIBERATELY chooses to ignore the PROVEN advice he gets that clearly works for the rest of the Sox' staff.

PHG correctly stated Garland was a "Rock Head" in previous years. He's finally figured it out and has double digit wins two full weeks before the All-Star game as a result (and has pitched well enough to deserve to START the All Star game).

Well, Contreras is a "Shrimp Head" and a "Bubba" for his utter stupidity on the mound.

JB98
07-02-2005, 01:50 AM
I can tell we lost tonight. Everyone is calling for a trade to be made....

White Sox Josh
07-02-2005, 01:50 AM
from somebody that bats 8th or 9th in the lineup, id consider ourselves luckyexactly but he goes into these prolonged slumps where he hits .180 for a month. I would rather him just be consistent and hit .240-.250 all the time.

AJPosguchi
07-02-2005, 01:50 AM
Is there a left hander in minors somewhere that is better than Walker? He looks pitiful everytime he has been in this year.

AA Birmingham:


Paulino Reynoso: ERA, 2.48



Birmingham Barons (http://minorleaguebaseball.com/app/clubs/index.jsp?cid=t247) bookmark player (http://minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Paulino%20Reynoso&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&did=milb&pid=434603#)

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 01:51 AM
Are you saying we should just sit back and happily accept when the Sox pitcher has 4.1 innings of absolute cerebral flatulence, just because it's Oakland and it's "what happens?"Yes. Why would you expect anything else? It is what happens. I've sat through many a debacle there and seen it. If it gets out of that park I would worry about it.

CubsfansareDRUNK
07-02-2005, 01:51 AM
i'm really really really sick of reading this "It's oakland" excuse. Who the hell cares? So we just lose the games because its oakland?

chitownhawkfan
07-02-2005, 01:51 AM
Joe Crede while not a monster at the plate is pretty damn good for an 8/9 hitter Ill take .242 and 22HR and 70RBI while playing some of the best third base in the majors

:andy
Don't worry Joe I still love ya

dcb33
07-02-2005, 01:51 AM
Relax. Did you become a Sox fan a week ago? This is Oakland. This is what happens. If it happens someplace else, I'll worry. This is the Bermuda Triangle.

I think you're overlooking the fact that Contreras is out there to intentionally lose games.

It's going to be hard for any team to win when they only score two runs. Although the Sox had a spectacular first inning with the bats, they were unable to keep it up. When you let the other team hang around without keeping the pressure on them by piling on more runs, you're just asking for trouble, and that's exactly what happened tonight.

Mr. White Sox
07-02-2005, 01:52 AM
"i'm really really really sick of reading this "It's oakland" excuse. Who the hell cares? So we just lose the games because its oakland?"


"Pretty much, yeah."
-Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 01:52 AM
i'm really really really sick of reading this "It's oakland" excuse. Who the hell cares? So we just lose the games because its oakland?It's not an excuse. It's a fact. Where have you been the last few years?

SpartanSoxFan
07-02-2005, 01:52 AM
From the AP story on the game just something to keep in mind with Hernandez and Marte out till the All Farce Break:

"Contreras, 0-3 with 16 walks in his last four starts, rubbed his right calf in pain during the fourth inning."

Isn't that the leg that was giving him trouble earlier this season?

Go get someone Kenny....me thinks Jose and Orlando are going to be 'iffy' for the rest of the season.

Lip

I say keep McCarthy, trade for one other starter (Zito/Schmidt/dare-I-say-Lilly), and ship BOTH Cubans back on the raft they came from...:angry:

Mr. White Sox
07-02-2005, 01:53 AM
I say keep McCarthy, trade for one other starter (Zito/Schmidt/dare-I-say-Lilly), and ship BOTH Cubans back on the raft they came from...:angry:

Keeping McCarthy and trading for Zito/Schmidt do not coexist in a peaceful, normal earth.

ShoelessJoeS
07-02-2005, 01:54 AM
exactly but he goes into these prolonged slumps where he hits .180 for a month. I would rather him just be consistent and hit .240-.250 all the time.
may was just a bad month, he hit .304 in april and carried the team for a couple games and just hit a very respectable .275 in june....like i said, not bad from a defensive specialist that bats close to last

Frater Perdurabo
07-02-2005, 01:54 AM
It's not an excuse. It's a fact. Where have you been the last few years?

I understand it's an historical fact. But that doesn't mean a loss has to be a foregone conclusion, nor does it excuse piss-poor performances on the field, especially by "Bubba the Shrimp Head" Contreras.

chitownhawkfan
07-02-2005, 01:54 AM
Another thing about people wanting starting pitching, one there arent that many good starters out there, we only need four pitchers in the playoffs and while I dont want to see Bubba Contreras pick up a ball in the playoffs if El Duque is healthy he is clutch in big games. While you know what Freddy, Mark and Garland can do.

:andy

Lip Man 1
07-02-2005, 01:55 AM
Contreras really is an enigma... going into tonight he had the third best opponents batting average in the league against him at only .255, however he leads the league in wild pitches and has walked those 16 guys in his last few starts.

Oh and as far as Rogers, based on his numbers the past two years, I'd love for the Sox to have had him.....and I wouldn't hold my breath that he's out for twenty games. Odds are the suspension will be reduced by the arbitrator, I'd say it'll be ten.

Go get em tomorrow and Kenny start working those phones...especially if Contreras should be out for a period of time with that leg.

Lip

CubsfansareDRUNK
07-02-2005, 01:55 AM
I understand it's an historical fact. But that doesn't mean a loss has to be a foregone conclusion, nor does it excuse piss-poor performances on the field, especially by "Bubba the Shrimp Head" Contreras.

agreed

MUsoxfan
07-02-2005, 01:56 AM
One thing I've noticed from reading post-game threads this year is that we are a spoiled group of fans. An outsider looking at this board would think we're criticizing the Yankees of the late 90's. This team has a certain level of flaws and we need to deal with/accept them as fans

Frater Perdurabo
07-02-2005, 01:56 AM
Contreras really is an enigma... going into tonight he had the third best opponents batting average in the league against him at only .255, however he leads the league in wild pitches and has walked those 16 guys in his last few starts.

Oh and as far as Rogers, based on his numbers the past two years, I'd love for the Sox to have had him.....and I wouldn't hold my breath that he's out for twenty games. Odds are the suspension will be reduced by the arbitrator, I'd say it'll be ten.

Go get em tomorrow and Kenny start working those phones...especially if Contreras should be out for a period of time with that leg.

Lip

I truly think "Bubba the Shrimp Head" is deathly afraid of allowing a hitter's bat touch a ball he has thrown.

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 01:57 AM
I understand it's an historical fact. But that doesn't mean a loss has to be a foregone conclusion, nor does it excuse piss-poor performances on the field, especially by "Bubba the Shrimp Head" Contreras.Frater, I'm glad you have hope. But, Ode went through his 45th loss in a row tonight. I'll join tomorrow and we'll get pounded again. And we'll get rocked Sunday. It's just the way it is. If we can win one game, it's a big plus. I don't know why it is. In the game thread I jokingly mentioned it goes back to when Manuel forfeited a game in 2002. Now that is true, but I don't really see how Jerry's forfeit could influence subsequent games. It's just a horrible concidence.

AJPosguchi
07-02-2005, 01:58 AM
I understand it's an historical fact. But that doesn't mean a loss has to be a foregone conclusion, nor does it excuse piss-poor performances on the field, especially by "Bubba the Shrimp Head" Contreras.

Contreras has really good stuff, I mean his pitches are as good as anybody in the league. Why is his head so messed up? Perhaps some psychiatric treatment might help.

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 01:58 AM
Oh and as far as Rogers, based on his numbers the past two years, I'd love for the Sox to have had him.....and I wouldn't hold my breath that he's out for twenty games. Odds are the suspension will be reduced by the arbitrator, I'd say it'll be ten.Now, why does Lip wanting to trade for a complete nutcase make so much sense? :redneck

BTW Lip, your boy has to face criminal charges yet. One of his teammates just got 30 days in the can for assault. :D:

White Sox Josh
07-02-2005, 01:58 AM
One Positive: Pods just became the first Sox Player since Lance Johnson to steal 40 bases in a season.

ShoelessJoeS
07-02-2005, 02:00 AM
Frater, I'm glad you have hope. But, Ode went through his 45th loss in a row tonight. I'll join tomorrow and we'll get pounded again. And we'll get rocked Sunday. It's just the way it is. If we can win one game, it's a big plus. I don't know why it is. In the game thread I jokingly mentioned it goes back to when Manuel forfeited a game in 2002. Now that is true, but I don't really see how Jerry's forfeit could influence subsequent games. It's just a horrible concidence.
i cant see buehrle getting rocked in oakland...again :(:

oeo
07-02-2005, 02:01 AM
Is it just me or do Oakland fans piss you off just as much or close to Cubs fans. They are the biggest jerks, and their constant "Let's Go Oakland" with their annoying horns really piss me off. Not only that, but they act as if every win is a World Series win. Grrr...I hate Oakland and their fans.

AJPosguchi
07-02-2005, 02:01 AM
i cant see buerhle getting rocked in oakland...again :(:

No way, Mark has been pitching well lately. Hit, maybe, Rocked, NO.

chitownhawkfan
07-02-2005, 02:02 AM
One Positive: Pods just became the first Sox Player since Lance Johnson to steal 40 bases in a season.

And sadly enough he wont make the all star team, I mean 40 bases stolen in the first half, thats only more than twice as much as the entire team of Oakland has as a total

:andy
Put him on the team

ShoelessJoeS
07-02-2005, 02:02 AM
One Positive: Pods just became the first Sox Player since Lance Johnson to steal 40 bases in a season.
something positive from a loss, no way :redneck

Mr. White Sox
07-02-2005, 02:02 AM
before I leave this thread, I'd like to point out a common theme in tonight's game: frustration. You could see it in most of the Sox on the field. AJ was a wreck, Contreras looked vapid, Iguchi threw his bat after a K (:o:) and Rowand was completely frustrated at the ump. This game pissed everyone off tonight, including the players, and hopefully it lit a fire under their behinds for tomorrow and Sunday.

AJPosguchi
07-02-2005, 02:03 AM
before I leave this thread, I'd like to point out a common theme in tonight's game: frustration. You could see it in most of the Sox on the field. AJ was a wreck, Contreras looked vapid, Iguchi threw his bat after a K (:o:) and Rowand was completely frustrated at the ump. This game pissed everyone off tonight, including the players, and hopefully it lit a fire under their behinds for tomorrow and Sunday.

Agree 99.9%

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 02:04 AM
i cant see buehrle getting rocked in oakland...again :(:Well, I'm going tomorrow and I hope Garland doesn't get pounded. But, I have little hope for either of the next two games. This 2005 Sox team has shed all of the old skeletons but one. Next year I'll be going to see the Sox in the Ted Dome. It can only get better. :smile:

Banix12
07-02-2005, 02:04 AM
Is it just me or do Oakland fans piss you off just as much or close to Cubs fans. They are the biggest jerks, and their constant "Let's Go Oakland" with their annoying horns really piss me off. Not only that, but they act as if every win is a World Series win. Grrr...I hate Oakland and their fans.

It's their stadium, their traditions, let them have their fun and drop it. They probably get just as angry listening to "Na, na, hey, hey, good bye"

ShoelessJoeS
07-02-2005, 02:04 AM
hopefully it lit a fire under their behinds for tomorrow and Sunday.
amen. night all!

JB98
07-02-2005, 02:05 AM
Contreras really is an enigma... going into tonight he had the third best opponents batting average in the league against him at only .255, however he leads the league in wild pitches and has walked those 16 guys in his last few starts.

Oh and as far as Rogers, based on his numbers the past two years, I'd love for the Sox to have had him.....and I wouldn't hold my breath that he's out for twenty games. Odds are the suspension will be reduced by the arbitrator, I'd say it'll be ten.

Go get em tomorrow and Kenny start working those phones...especially if Contreras should be out for a period of time with that leg.

Lip

Lip, I'm sure Kenny is already working the phones. He's a very aggressive GM, and he'll pull the trigger if there's a move to be made to improve this club. However, I just don't see this as being a desperate situation in terms of starting pitching. If we want to move some mid-level prospects to get a back-of-the-rotation insurance policy, then fine. But we're in really good shape at the top of the rotation. Buerhle, Garland and Garcia have carried us and will continue to carry us. I'm not willing to deal Anderson, McCarthy or Bajenaru to add a starting pitcher at this point.

RadioheadRocks
07-02-2005, 02:05 AM
And sadly enough he wont make the all star team, I mean 40 bases stolen in the first half, thats only more than twice as much as the entire team of Oakland has as a total


Like that really matters anyway... who actually gives a rat's @$$ about the "All-Star-Ballot-Box-Stuffing-Popularity-Contest Game" anyway???

doublem23
07-02-2005, 02:06 AM
It's just one game guys... Back to it tomorrow.

Frater Perdurabo
07-02-2005, 02:07 AM
Frater, I'm glad you have hope. But, Ode went through his 45th loss in a row tonight. I'll join tomorrow and we'll get pounded again. And we'll get rocked Sunday. It's just the way it is. If we can win one game, it's a big plus. I don't know why it is. In the game thread I jokingly mentioned it goes back to when Manuel forfeited a game in 2002. Now that is true, but I don't really see how Jerry's forfeit could influence subsequent games. It's just a horrible concidence.

I'm glad we can have some kind of understanding. :smile:

I don't believe in curses for many reasons. I do believe in "psychological conditioning," (for lack of an ability to think of a better term at 1 a.m. CDT) but that being said the rest of the team didn't seem to have a huge problem tonight, other than an inability to score seven runs against pretty good pitching (which also happened to them in Detroit and last Saturday and Sunday against the Cubs). I understand - and can accept - that the bats are slumping right now. I don't like it but I understand it's part of the game.

If the Sox lost 6-2 tonight on 12 or 13 Oakland hits with perhaps one or two walks surrendered, I likely wouldn't even post in the post-game thread.

I'm not even mad at the rest of the team; I don't think the rest of the team really played poorly enough to lose.

I am flabbergated at Contreras' unwillingness to throw strikes. And I don't think he's so injured that he can't throw strikes. Even Ron Santo in his present condition could get the ball over the plate. (It might get crushed deep into the outfield, but at least Pods, Rowand or Dye would have a chance to catch it for an out.)

IMHO, Contreras didn't even give the Sox an opportunity to win tonight because he CHOSE to throw balls and wild pitches.

Let's get them tomorrow - at least the Sox will have a chance with a pitcher who throws strikes on the mound.

:bandance:

AJPosguchi
07-02-2005, 02:08 AM
Lip, I'm sure Kenny is already working the phones. He's a very aggressive GM, and he'll pull the trigger if there's a move to be made to improve this club. However, I just don't see this as being a desperate situation in terms of starting pitching. If we want to move some mid-level prospects to get a back-of-the-rotation insurance policy, then fine. But we're in really good shape at the top of the rotation. Buerhle, Garland and Garcia have carried us and will continue to carry us. I'm not willing to deal Anderson, McCarthy or Bajenaru to add a starting pitcher at this point.

We have 3 Cy Young candidates, if we get get ElDuque back for the playoffs, we'll be fine... He can compete with any 4th starter in the majors.

Banix12
07-02-2005, 02:08 AM
Lip, I'm sure Kenny is already working the phones. He's a very aggressive GM, and he'll pull the trigger if there's a move to be made to improve this club. However, I just don't see this as being a desperate situation in terms of starting pitching. If we want to move some mid-level prospects to get a back-of-the-rotation insurance policy, then fine. But we're in really good shape at the top of the rotation. Buerhle, Garland and Garcia have carried us and will continue to carry us. I'm not willing to deal Anderson, McCarthy or Bajenaru to add a starting pitcher at this point.

I think that's the first time I've heard Bajenaru added to the "will not trade" list

lostletters
07-02-2005, 02:11 AM
The thing is you can be pissed off all you want.

Do I blame JC for the previous games...yes.


It is Oakland, if you do not think scheduling plays into this you are a moron. It seems like MLB schedules the white sox to lose in Oakland. Additionally they have the worst Umps in the Majors (though not a factor tonight).

The day the Collesium is torn down will be one of the happiest days as a White Sox fan.

As far as JC...I feel he is our number five guy. Not worth the 8.5 million....NOT EVEN CLOSE. He is inconsistant. It seems like there is a 50/50 chance he will be mr. inconsistant. As it was stated, it is like the guy ignores cooper and ozzie.

That being said, I think the White Sox are going to be trading for a starting pitcher. Who knows what starting pitcher...personally I am hoping for Oswalt.

Banix12
07-02-2005, 02:11 AM
I was just thinking on the bullpen lefty situation, the only other lefty I can think of in the minors who could come up would be Arnie Munoz

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 02:11 AM
I don't believe in curses for many reasons. I do believe in "psychological conditioning," (for lack of an ability to think of a better term at 1 a.m. CDT)I almost think you hit on some of it here. I think the time difference is an issue, especially in the first night game of the series. When I go back east I'm like superman because of my native time zone.

lostletters
07-02-2005, 02:14 AM
One thing I've noticed from reading post-game threads this year is that we are a spoiled group of fans. An outsider looking at this board would think we're criticizing the Yankees of the late 90's. This team has a certain level of flaws and we need to deal with/accept them as fans


Okay...I can't really disagree with this. One of the teams flaws is the inconsistancy of the cubans. Which is stands out alot because of the consistancy of Garland, Buehrle and Garcia. Like I said earlier, very few teams have three studs. Most have one, or two at the most. Including teams that won the WS.

Lip Man 1
07-02-2005, 02:16 AM
JB:

I'm not saying 'break the bank' for a back end guy. I'm saying with still 80 games to go a lot can happen. You are looking at a tough two week stretch in August and a September that sees no off days for the last three weeks.

All the Sox need is a 'reliable' guy who can take the ball every 5th day and give them a chance to win.

The Sox may not need anyone IF Hernandez can stay healthy and McCarthy can fill the bill but if not they have some real issues that have to be taken care of with three months still to go.

Personally I'd go out and get someone. In the next two weeks they'll probably be six to nine teams 'out' of the race looking to move talent. 'Someone' will be available. You can never have to much pitching.

Plus Phil Rogers said something yesterday on Chicago Tribune Live that made a lot of sense. As long as the Sox have a big lead, if they either pick up another starter or if Hrnandez comes back and they keep McCarthy you could see them go to a six man rotation to stretch the pitchers out and keep them fresh for that stretch run in September / October.

I don't see any harm in doing that but first they need options to go to six starters.

We'll see.

Lip

Lip Man 1
07-02-2005, 02:20 AM
West brings up a valid point about the time difference causing issues, remember the Detroit game was delayed two hours so they got out later then they anticipated.

Personally I think the Oakland thing is now all mental it just doesn't make sense for a Sox team that posted winning records in 01,03,04 and so far this year to have that much trouble in one location. This isn't Tampa Bay we're talking about here.

I think they see 'Oakland' on the schedule and begin pressing because they know what's going on.

Lip

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 02:20 AM
I don't see any harm in doing that but first they need options to go to six starters.Lip, you are a walking baseball encyclopedia. How many WS Champions have had 6 man rotations?

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 02:22 AM
West brings up a valid point about the time difference causing issues, remember the Detroit game was delayed two hours so they got out later then they anticipated.

Personally I think the Oakland thing is now all mental it just doesn't make sense for a Sox team that posted winning records in 01,03,04 and so far this year to have that much trouble in one location. This isn't Tampa Bay we're talking about here.

I think they see 'Oakland' on the schedule and begin pressing because they know what's going on.

LipLip, it's crazy. I am not superstitious. But the things Ode and I have sat through are ridiculous. I know we are warped. He called me tonight as soon as things headed south. "It" was happening again. I fear tomorrow night. :o:

Lip Man 1
07-02-2005, 02:24 AM
Lost:

Other teams win in Oakland, it's not the stadium...it's individual match-up's and as I said I think it's now mental.

Plus Oswald would cost a bundle in talent...ditto Schmidt. It would be nice but I wouldn't hold my breath a Ted Lilly or Jamie Moyer for example is more likely and that's fine for the back end of the rotation on a very good team.

One final point, you don't need five starters in the post season...if the schedule works right you might only need three BUT you DO need five to GET to the post season.

Lot's of time left, let's not look to far ahead. One day at a time...

Lip

Lip Man 1
07-02-2005, 02:28 AM
West:

I think Phil's point was as long as you have a safe lead why risk injury and burn your horses out if you don't have to? Keep em' fresh for late September / October when the horses HAVE to be strong and sharp against good teams, top hitters and very stressful situations.

Like you said I can't figure out Oakland except to say it's a lot like the Cubs of the late 60's, early 70's. Mentally they saw all those 'day' games and it simply killed them. They expected to be tired and they were. here perhaps they think they'll have trouble because it's Oakland and they do.

Lip

Banix12
07-02-2005, 02:34 AM
Lost:

Other teams win in Oakland, it's not the stadium...it's individual match-up's and as I said I think it's now mental.

Plus Oswald would cost a bundle in talent...ditto Schmidt. It would be nice but I wouldn't hold my breath a Ted Lilly or Jamie Moyer for example is more likely and that's fine for the back end of the rotation on a very good team.

One final point, you don't need five starters in the post season...if the schedule works right you might only need three BUT you DO need five to GET to the post season.

Lot's of time left, let's not look to far ahead. One day at a time...

Lip

Fully agree with you here. A Jaime Moyer or Ted Lilly would look fine as a fifth starter. I would also just say that tonight's game was a clear example of a bad matchup. A pitcher with a history of wildness against a team led by the philosophy of patience and taking walks.

I would also say it's not all Contreras' fault as well as the bullpen. They weren't any good tonight but the hitting has to back them up. 2 runs isn't gonna cut it on most nights.

Oh well, one loss, go get them tomorrow.

White Sox Josh
07-02-2005, 02:36 AM
West:

I think Phil's point was as long as you have a safe lead why risk injury and burn your horses out if you don't have to? Keep em' fresh for late September / October when the horses HAVE to be strong and sharp against good teams, top hitters and very stressful situations.

Like you said I can't figure out Oakland except to say it's a lot like the Cubs of the late 60's, early 70's. Mentally they saw all those 'day' games and it simply killed them. They expected to be tired and they were. here perhaps they think they'll have trouble because it's Oakland and they do.

LipYou just have to hope though that Ozzie keeps the Sox fired up if this happens. I don't want to see them sleepwalk through the final month and get into the playoffs and lose in the 1st round. Doing this might just make them feel to comfortable. And about this game they looked like they lost this game in the 5th inning. They looked like they were down by 10 runs instead of 2. Let's just say it was a complete opposite of what happened against Arizona earlier this year.

RadioheadRocks
07-02-2005, 02:37 AM
You just have to hope though that Ozzie keeps the Sox fired up if this happens. I don't want to see them sleepwalk through the final month and get into the playoffs and lose in the 1st round. Doing this might just make them feel to comfortable. And about this game they looked like they lost this game in the 5th inning. They looked like they were down by 10 runs instead of 2. Let's just say it was a complete opposite of what happened against Arizona earlier this year.

Exactly... no room for complacency here folks... couldn't have said it better myself!

Stroker Ace
07-02-2005, 02:38 AM
Damn. Lets hope that J-G can get em' tomorrow.

White Sox Josh
07-02-2005, 02:38 AM
Fully agree with you here. A Jaime Moyer or Ted Lilly would look fine as a fifth starter. I would also just say that tonight's game was a clear example of a bad matchup. A pitcher with a history of wildness against a team led by the philosophy of patience and taking walks.

I would also say it's not all Contreras' fault as well as the bullpen. They weren't any good tonight but the hitting has to back them up. 2 runs isn't gonna cut it on most nights.

Oh well, one loss, go get them tomorrow.They were also facing Rich Harden and when you are facing a guy like the pitchers have to know that runs are gonna be rare so you don't have the luxury of maybe giving up 2 or 3 runs and expecting to win the game.

Chicago83
07-02-2005, 02:46 AM
You just have to hope though that Ozzie keeps the Sox fired up

I have absolutely no reason to believe Ozzie will not keep this team fired up. Say what you want about some of Ozzie's decesions, but you can never question his abilitly to motivate.

JB98
07-02-2005, 02:48 AM
JB:

I'm not saying 'break the bank' for a back end guy. I'm saying with still 80 games to go a lot can happen. You are looking at a tough two week stretch in August and a September that sees no off days for the last three weeks.

All the Sox need is a 'reliable' guy who can take the ball every 5th day and give them a chance to win.

The Sox may not need anyone IF Hernandez can stay healthy and McCarthy can fill the bill but if not they have some real issues that have to be taken care of with three months still to go.

Personally I'd go out and get someone. In the next two weeks they'll probably be six to nine teams 'out' of the race looking to move talent. 'Someone' will be available. You can never have to much pitching.

Plus Phil Rogers said something yesterday on Chicago Tribune Live that made a lot of sense. As long as the Sox have a big lead, if they either pick up another starter or if Hrnandez comes back and they keep McCarthy you could see them go to a six man rotation to stretch the pitchers out and keep them fresh for that stretch run in September / October.

I don't see any harm in doing that but first they need options to go to six starters.

We'll see.

Lip


The point I'm making though is, we don't need another starter in order to make the playoffs. If El Duque and Contreras continue to have issues, it is true that we will probably not be able to play .680 ball for the rest of the year as we are now. However, the beauty of being 53-25 and having a 9.5 game lead is we don't have to play .680 ball for the rest of the year. We only need to play .500 to get to 95 wins, which I think is the magic number for a division title. We played .500 ball last year with a black hole in the fifth spot. Certainly, we can play .500 ball with Buehrle, Garland and Garcia at the front of our rotation. Barring catastrophic injuries to one or more of those pitchers, we're going to make the playoffs. The question for KW is what do we need to get to the World Series and to win it? In my view, the answer to that question is one more arm for the bullpen. You only need four starters for the playoffs. We have three, and I have a feeling Duque will be there for us when it matters most.

Chicago83
07-02-2005, 02:50 AM
I would also just say that tonight's game was a clear example of a bad matchup. A pitcher with a history of wildness against a team led by the philosophy of patience and taking walks.

This game tonight made me realize why moneyball works, it takes adavantage of bad pitching. You put moneyball team against a guy like Jose or anybody who is prone to the walk and you got trouble. But throw a guy like Buehrle out there and he'll dominate. This is why the A's can make the playoffs, but will never win because good pitching dominates in the post-season.

White Sox Josh
07-02-2005, 02:53 AM
This game tonight made me realize why moneyball works, it takes adavantage of bad pitching. You put moneyball team against a guy like Jose or anybody who is prone to the walk and you got trouble. But throw a guy like Buehrle out there and he'll dominate. This is why the A's can make the playoffs, but will never win because good pitching dominates in the post-season.and even good pitching to though. Some of those pitches that Shingo threw in the at-bat to Crosby would be pitches that other teams players would swing at. in fact in the final 8 pitches that Crosby saw in the game he never swung the bat.

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 02:57 AM
This game tonight made me realize why moneyball works, it takes adavantage of bad pitching.Let's see your "moneyball" team actually accomplish something in a non-steroid era before we declare "moneyball works". They haven't even hit .500 yet. "Moneyball" needs to show it can do something without the 'roids yet since the A's were probably only rivaled by the Rangers in the pharmacology department.

Nellie_Fox
07-02-2005, 03:06 AM
You put moneyball team against a guy like Jose or anybody who is prone to the walk and you got trouble. *****. "Moneyball works against bad pitching." Jeez, anything works against bad pitching. Put any team out there against that many walks and wild pitches, and you've got trouble. In fact, they should be embarassed at how few runs they got against that many walks and wild pitches. Moneyball. BS.

Seriously, PHG and West nothwithstanding, I don't accept the "it's Oakland" as an excuse for this. I'm no dark clouder by any means, but listening to the Oakland announcers on the radio tonight, they were incredulous at Contreras's performance. They kept saying "with this guy's stuff, his 93-95 mph fastball with movement, why does he keep nibbling, and throwing breaking balls off the plate and into the dirt? Go after the hitters." When Ozzie went to the mound, they said "this is no discussion; Ozzie is doing all the talking."

Why? Because Contreras won't do what he's told to do. Work more quickly and trust your fastball, trust the defense. He needs to be told that he may not shake off the catchers. Throw the pitch that's called. Period. I don't care that the hitters in Cuba swung at that crap and got themselves out. This is the Major Leagues, and they won't swing at it. There is a Major League defense behind you. Go after them.

Chicago83
07-02-2005, 03:14 AM
*****. "Moneyball works against bad pitching." Jeez, anything works against bad pitching. Put any team out there against that many walks and wild pitches, and you've got trouble. In fact, they should be embarassed at how few runs they got against that many walks and wild pitches. Moneyball. BS.

The point is moneyball takes advantage of bad pitching. Sitting and taking every pitch you see (Like Crosby was doing) works great against Jose, but put that up against Buerhle and you're in trouble. Moneyball teams may score more runs because they can put up big numbers against the multitude of pitchers out there who have trouble getting the ball over the plate. But put them in the playoffs against good pitching and everything falls apart.

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 03:19 AM
Seriously, PHG and West nothwithstanding, I don't accept the "it's Oakland" as an excuse for this.And two ass handings later you'll be just as mystified as me and Ode about what happened. :(:

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 03:21 AM
The point is moneyball takes advantage of bad pitching. Sitting and taking every pitch you see (Like Crosby was doing) works great against Jose, but put that up against Buerhle and you're in trouble.The A's will luck into something against Mark and Jon that will give the FOBB's plenty to crow about. It's not "moneyball", it's something that defies explanation.

Chicago83
07-02-2005, 03:25 AM
Why? Because Contreras won't do what he's told to do. Work more quickly and trust your fastball, trust the defense. He needs to be told that he may not shake off the catchers. Throw the pitch that's called. Period. I don't care that the hitters in Cuba swung at that crap and got themselves out. This is the Major Leagues, and they won't swing at it. There is a Major League defense behind you. Go after them.

It's hard to teach an old dog new trickes, remember Jose pitched for years in Cuba. I get the feeling that he was an effectively wild pitcher in Cuba and that it worked. It may not work in the ML and you can't expect a guy who has been pitching succesfully for many years to suddenly change his style. He may just not be able to do it. What we have seen this year so far is occasional displays of brillance where he was effectively wild and occasional breakdowns.

Still he hasn't pitched as bad as everybody make it out to be, 4 runs in 4.1 IP is not an absolutely terrible outing, look at Johnson letting up 7 in 5. Randy may not walk guys, but does that make it any better. I know it's frustrating watching a guy walk in runs, but we may have to realize that Jose is what he is and let him do his own thing. Everyone acts like just because he has the "good stuff" that he should dominate, well there's plenty of guys out there who have the stuff and will never amount to anything.

When it comes down to it Jose has a better ERA than El Duque and is a better fifth starer than most in the league. I think people are overreacting to Contrereas performances, the only major problem I have with the guy is the fact that we are paying him 6 million to be a fifth starter.

Chicago83
07-02-2005, 03:29 AM
The A's will luck into something against Mark and Jon that will give the FOBB's plenty to crow about. It's not "moneyball", it's something that defies explanation.

You really believe there is some kinds of supernatural luck factor playing a part in our struggles in Oakland. I think it is only in the minds of the players. We started off struggling there and ever since then it's been in their minds that we struggle in Oakland. So once something bad happens it's like "Oh no, here we go again" and the next thing you know we fall apart. It's like any curse, it's only real in the minds of the players.

Nellie_Fox
07-02-2005, 03:40 AM
I know it's frustrating watching a guy walk in runs, but we may have to realize that Jose is what he is and let him do his own thing.No. His "own thing" is clearly not working. There is no reason for us to "realize that Jose is what he is" if that is not working, especially when everyone agrees that "what he is" is not "what he could be" if he'd just listen to coaching. He refuses to work faster, he refuses to rely on his fastball, he shakes off the catchers time and again, despite getting beat up.

It's time for him to do what the Sox want him to do, not what he wants to do.

kojak
07-02-2005, 03:44 AM
Good Lord, what a load of tripe!

So we were flat tonight, big flinkin' sniff. We played a 13 inning marathon Wednesday night, followed by a 2-hour rain delayed mess and then a cross-country flight to the Bermuda Triangle. With Contreras pitching! What did you expect, a slugfest???

The good news is that Contreras is not pitching tomorrow.

And hat's off to West. You are really fighting an uphill battle tonight against the pesky FOCDs!

I'll be there tomorrow to see Buehrle toss another gem to get us back on track.

Unless of coors we have traded him by then for Oswalt and Chavez

:threadsucks

Chicago83
07-02-2005, 03:49 AM
No. His "own thing" is clearly not working. There is no reason for us to "realize that Jose is what he is" if that is not working, especially when everyone agrees that "what he is" is not "what he could be" if he'd just listen to coaching. He refuses to work faster, he refuses to rely on his fastball, he shakes off the catchers time and again, despite getting beat up.

It's time for him to do what the Sox want him to do, not what he wants to do.

4.34 ERA and 71 K's in 95.1 IP. Definetly not dominating, definetly not top of the rotation stuff, but there are plenty of teams who would love to have a guy like him in the back of their rotation.

I am sick of hearing about Jose's supposed potential. Realize that Jose is an established pitcher in his late 30's. I just don't think you can ask a guy like that to change, what he did in Cuba worked, it may not work in the ML and so be it. I have seen games where he throws that fastball over the plate, he's been lit up. His style is brutal and nobody is really happy with it, but that's just the way it is. How often do we hear of a guy's great stuff and potential only to see him fail miserably. Just forget about all the potential you heard about in the media and take Jose for what he is, a 4 or 5 starter, sometimes dominating, sometimes ugly. Like I said before the only real problem I have with this guy is the fact that he is being paid so much for his role on this team.

owensmouth
07-02-2005, 03:52 AM
On the subject of the flight from Detroit. Yes the game yesterday was delayed two hours, but it was a very fast game, only two hours and eight minutes. The Sox travel is on a charter flight, so it goes went they're ready, which probably doesn't take long. The flight probably took about three and a half to four hours. Don't forget, they pick up three hours on that flight from Detroit to the west coast. They then played a night game. They got plenty of sleep.


On the subject of Oakland, maybe there is something about that damned stadium, or the air, or the water, or the natives. But, good pitching beats bad pitching.

I'll keep using Norton.

Nellie_Fox
07-02-2005, 03:53 AM
Realize that Jose is an established pitcher in his late 30's. I just don't think you can ask a guy like that to change, what he did in Cuba worked, it may not work in the ML and so be it. I have seen games where he throws that fastball over the plate, he's been lit up.He's not an "established pitcher" in the Major Leagues. I don't see why you can't ask him to change.

If he gets "lit up" doing what the coaching staff asks him to do, that's different than getting killed doing what they ask him not to do.

TheOldRoman
07-02-2005, 03:53 AM
The A's will luck into something against Mark and Jon that will give the FOBB's plenty to crow about. It's not "moneyball", it's something that defies explanation.
This post made me laugh, and then I realized you are serious. This thing about Oakland is BS. It's not an excuse for losing tonight, there is none. We lost, we will get over it. I HATE losing in Oakland more than losing anywhere else, and it's frustrating as hell to watch it happen time and time again. However, there are no mystical powers at work here. The Sox played a bad game, and they lost. With this performance, the Sox would have lost to most teams (but it is frustrating as hell to lose to them). Contreras was horrible, and the offense managed only 2 unearned runs. More than likely, the Sox will play their game today and win. More than likely, they will win on Sunday. Look at it this way: If the Sox win Saturday and Sunday, they will be 3-3 in Oakland this year. That would surely slay any deamons which haunt us there. If I know storybooks, and I do, the hero can get pounded for a long time, but in the end, they come out on top. This means that either the Sox will win the next two games, or Oakland will make the playoffs and get their asses handed to them by the Sox. This season has been a fairytale so far, so there is no reason to think it wont work out in the end.:cool:

Also, West, what did you mean by Manuel forfeiting a game in 2002? I don't remember that story.

Chicago83
07-02-2005, 03:59 AM
He's not an "established pitcher" in the Major Leagues. I don't see why you can't ask him to change.

If he gets "lit up" doing what the coaching staff asks him to do, that's different than getting killed doing what they ask him not to do.

What I mean is he's been pitching for so many years that you can't ask him to change his stlye. It doesn't matter if it was in the ML or Cuba.

I think Jose lacks control, he's got that good fastball but if he keeps throwing that he is going to make mistakes which usually leave the park. You ask him to rely on the FB and forget the forkball and hitters will tee off. Which is why you have to live through the occasional meltdown because he can't get the forkball over the plate. When he does get the forkball over the plate and then mixes in the fastball and slider we see him dominate. People seem to act like throwing fastball strikes and working quick is some magic recipe for success, it may be for guys like Buehrle and Garland, but Jose does not have the same control as those guys.

IowaSox1971
07-02-2005, 04:01 AM
We've lost a lot in Oakland in the past few years for several reasons:

1. We have a team full of mistake hitters, so good pitching, which Oakland usually has, prevents us from scoring many runs.

2. Oakland's hitters are usually very patient, and our pitchers are not overpowering. Because our pitchers are not overpowering, they tend to nibble, which is not an effective strategy against Oakland. Garcia is about the only starter we have who can be overpowering. He won for us in Oakland last year, and earlier this year he only gave up one run to them.

3. Oakland hitters like Kielty and Hatteberg hit much better against us than they do against other teams. Likewise, some unheralded Oakland pitchers, like Deuscherer, usually shut us down.

4. There is a ton of foul territory that is in play in Oakland's park. Our hitters, like Frank, tend to foul off a lot of pitches. At home, these foul balls are out of play. At Oakland, more of them can become outs.

Banix12
07-02-2005, 04:03 AM
He's not an "established pitcher" in the Major Leagues. I don't see why you can't ask him to change.

If he gets "lit up" doing what the coaching staff asks him to do, that's different than getting killed doing what they ask him not to do.

Yup, in terms of major league experience Contreras has less than every starter on the sox not named McCarthy. You can ask him to change because what he's been doing hasn't worked all the time and the guys giving him advice know more about the majors than him. If he won't change it's because he's stubborn.

Nellie_Fox
07-02-2005, 04:03 AM
What I mean is he's been pitching for so many years that you can't ask him to change his stlye. It doesn't matter if it was in the ML or Cuba.

I think Jose lacks control, he's got that good fastball but if he keeps throwing that he is going to make mistakes which usually leave the park. You ask him to rely on the FB and forget the forkball and hitters will tee off. Which is why you have to live through the occasional meltdown because he can't get the forkball over the plate. When he does get the forkball over the plate and then mixes in the fastball and slider we see him dominate. People seem to act like throwing fastball strikes and working quick is some magic recipe for success, it may be for guys like Buehrle and Garland, but Jose does not have the same control as those guys.I never said he should only throw the fastball. But he hardly ever throws it, preferring to throw his junk pitches, hoping the hitters will flail at it, when he has a very good fastball, which should be his main pitch, using the others off the fastball.

I don't care how long he's been pitching; it's not like you're asking him to rework his mechanics late in life. Just which pitches he relies on. He absolutely can do that. He just won't.

TheOldRoman
07-02-2005, 04:10 AM
Conteras continues to baffle me. I think Ozzie needs to tell him before his next start "Jose, we are trying something new today. Today, you are not allowed to shake off the catcher. If you shake him off once, I will let it go. Twice, I come out to the mound. Three times, Im putting your ass on the bench. Either you will play my way or you wont play." I hope that this game was just the thing Jose needs to get his head out of his ass and listen to coaching.

Does it seem to anyone else that Uribe is the offensive equivalent of Contreras? He has all the talent in the world, but he can't put it all together. I am sick and tired of watching Uribe strike out on balls two feet out of the strike zone. I dont know if he isn't working hard enough or what, but his offense really needs to be addressed. If he reduced his own strikezone, his average would increase. Right now he is swinging at anything, so pitchers know they don't have to throw him strikes, especially with a two strike count. Watching Uribe, for me, is more frustrating than watching Crede. Crede tries, but at this point it's doubtful whether he has that talent to ever hit .270. In my mind, Uribe should be batting much much higher, because he has shown the potential.

TheOldRoman
07-02-2005, 04:16 AM
What I mean is he's been pitching for so many years that you can't ask him to change his stlye. It doesn't matter if it was in the ML or Cuba.

I think Jose lacks control, he's got that good fastball but if he keeps throwing that he is going to make mistakes which usually leave the park. You ask him to rely on the FB and forget the forkball and hitters will tee off. Which is why you have to live through the occasional meltdown because he can't get the forkball over the plate. When he does get the forkball over the plate and then mixes in the fastball and slider we see him dominate. People seem to act like throwing fastball strikes and working quick is some magic recipe for success, it may be for guys like Buehrle and Garland, but Jose does not have the same control as those guys.
See, I'm not so sure he "lacks control". For some reason, Jose is frightened of getting hit. He tries to be absolutely perfect, and because of that, he misses. He has shown he can find the strike zone. It's all mental with him. He gets scared of throwing strikes, so he doesn't. I believe that sooner or later he will listen to Coop, and work faster, thow more fastballs, and most importantly, DONT SHAKE OFF THE CATCHER! When he listens to Coop, and trusts himself, he will be unbelievable. I am still confident he can do it.

Mohoney
07-02-2005, 04:17 AM
Maybe I'm being way too optimistic about this, but all I know is that Contreras is 3-5 with a 4.34 ERA and a .225 BAA. We are 7-9 in games that he has started.

Am I completely crazy in thinking that the upgrade that this represents over our 5th starters the past 4 years was worth the money that we invested?

Chicago83
07-02-2005, 04:23 AM
Maybe I'm being way too optimistic about this, but all I know is that Contreras is 3-5 with a 4.34 ERA and a .225 BAA. We are 7-9 in games that he has started.

Am I completely crazy in thinking that the upgrade that this represents over our 5th starters the past 4 years was worth the money that we invested?

Not crazy at all, although I can't agree with his 6 million dollar salary.

People on this site and the media seem to belive in some kind of mythical potential in Jose. I think Jose has shown us what he can do. He is going to have bad outings, but when it comes down to it his bad outing aren't even that bad. We could have easily won the game today. All the walks are brutal to watch, but most guys don't give up walks on their bad days they give up bombs. Let Jose do his thing and if games like this continue, then maybe we need to reevaluate his status as a starter.

The Racehorse
07-02-2005, 07:02 AM
Also in my opinion with Contreras being Contreras, McCarthy's inexperience and Hernandez's 'iffy' status, 'it's time' for Kenny to go out and get another starting pitcher for insurance.

Like Roy Oswalt?

The Racehorse
07-02-2005, 07:21 AM
Did you become a Sox fan a week ago? This is Oakland. This is what happens. This is the Bermuda Triangle.
Seattle to Oakland to Anaheim = :?: :o: :(:

SSN721
07-02-2005, 08:33 AM
Wow, how horribly frustrating. I couldnt even watch on TV anymore after Walker walked in the run in the 5th. Just listened to the rest. I should have just gone to bed. I just dont get it with Oakland. But honestly I will be happy if they come away with one win from that dump. The pitching matchups favor the Sox but I tend to agree with West that somehow, something very goofy and unexpected that baffles all logic will happen over the next two games to either make the Sox lose both or come close to it. Lets just go get 'em tonight.

Tragg
07-02-2005, 08:35 AM
exactly but he goes into these prolonged slumps where he hits .180 for a month. I would rather him just be consistent and hit .240-.250 all the time.

We can't afford Randa's defense on this ballclub; he's a 5 hole hitter and has 1 more homer and 7 more RBIs than Crede.
The bottom line is Randa is a career stiff and belongs on teams like Cincy and KC.

Tonight the Sox beat themselves. WE haven't done that much this year. I don't know why Contreras walks so damn many, but I wish he'd cease and desist.

Viva Medias B's
07-02-2005, 08:43 AM
I'm glad we're getting the Coliseum out of the way before the ASG. With a 9 game lead, I'm not worried about the Oakland series. Sure, I'd like to win these games. I like our chances today and Sunday with Garland and Buehrle. Nevertheless, this series won't break us if it goes bad.

SpringfldFan
07-02-2005, 09:27 AM
Just some random thoughts:

Esteban Loaiza is 3-5 with a 3.81 ERA in the NL. Take it for what it's worth.

Sometimes Buehrle has "satisfactory" games where he gives up 3 or 4 runs and several hits but still manages to go 8 or 9 innings. Could Sunday be one of those games and also be one where the Sox don't bring their offense?

I think would rather be a fan upset that my 53-25 team got beat by a .500 team then a fan who is thrilled that my .500 gets the better of a 53-25 team.

Is it possible Contreras has stuff but simply can't control it? Would it be like one of us slinging nickels from 60' (impossible to hit but hard to control?)

Regarding the Oakland curse, the 2005 Sox are a different team then prior Sox teams, so history doesn't apply. The only "sample" is a statistically insignificant 4 games in 2005...

If management made trades every time players struggle and fans say a trade is in order, how many current Sox would be on the team?

Why is losing in Oakland is due to luck yet going 25-5 against the central isn't?

SFF

PaleHoseGeorge
07-02-2005, 09:28 AM
The game was 2 hours old and still stuck in the fifth inning. That's when I knew the Sox were in trouble.

Last night was historic. It's the first time Ed Farmer's shtick got so irritating, I actually turned off the radio and went back to listening to Hawk and DJ. That ******* was completely off the leash last night. Not even Rooney could make up the difference from having to listen to Farmer go on and on about his phone conversation with this "friend" Kenny Rogers...

:farmer
Good thing we weren't in Toronto or you could have heard my latest diatribe about Canada, Canadians, international customs, and the national anthem, too."

Jurr
07-02-2005, 09:45 AM
Esteban Loaiza is 3-5 with a 3.81 ERA in the NL. Take it for what it's worth.

Esteban Loaiza pitches in the National League, where pitchers hit once every 2 or three innings. Take it for what it's worth. :wink:

Jurr
07-02-2005, 09:46 AM
The game was 2 hours old and still stuck in the fifth inning. That's when I knew the Sox were in trouble.

Last night was historic. It's the first time Ed Farmer's shtick got so irritating, I actually turned off the radio and went back to listening to Hawk and DJ. That ******* was completely off the leash last night. Not even Rooney could make up the difference from having to listen to Farmer go on and on about his phone conversation with this "friend" Kenny Rogers...

:farmer
Good thing we weren't in Toronto or you could have heard my latest diatribe about Canada, Canadians, international customs, and the national anthem, too."
Man, those Cubans are tough to watch! They just LABOR!
I was staring down a pair of pliers, wondering if yanking my teeth out might feel better than watching that game. Oh. Send Kevin Walker down to the minors.

Ol' No. 2
07-02-2005, 09:55 AM
I'm frankly shocked at the number of people who should know better that are buying into the whole Oakland "curse" thing. You can dress it up in other words, call it jet lag or whatever, but its BS. They sucked last night. You could be playing in Timbuktu and you'd still lose playing like that. It's not the first time they sucked, and in cities all around the country and at home. Contreras, after starting the season pretty well, has suddenly decided he has to strike everybody out, and that he's going to do it by getting hitters to chase his junk pitches. Harrelson nailed it:

Contreras + patient hitters = loss

And the offense wasn't any better. It's hard to win games with only 4 hits. I suspect Contreras tends to put his own offense to sleep.

They just had an awful game last night. They've done it before and they'll do it again. Curse, my ass.

Jurr
07-02-2005, 09:59 AM
I'm frankly shocked at the number of people who should know better that are buying into the whole Oakland "curse" thing. You can dress it up in other words, call it jet lag or whatever, but its BS. They sucked last night. You could be playing in Timbuktu and you'd still lose playing like that. It's not the first time they sucked, and in cities all around the country and at home. Contreras, after starting the season pretty well, has suddenly decided he has to strike everybody out, and that he's going to do it by getting hitters to chase his junk pitches. Harrelson nailed it:

Contreras + patient hitters = loss

And the offense wasn't any better. It's hard to win games with only 4 hits. I suspect Contreras tends to put his own offense to sleep.

They just had an awful game last night. They've done it before and they'll do it again. Curse, my ass.
Yeah...a curse doesn't cause Contreras to slam sliders directly into the ground, some 5 feet away from the hitter or the catcher. He's a wild pitch waiting to happen. Let's give them the back to back aces and see what happens:bandance: .

Pasqua's Posers
07-02-2005, 10:05 AM
All season he has been flirting with disaster. Walks and wild pitches are killing us when he starts.:angry: :angry: :angry:

mike squires
07-02-2005, 10:07 AM
Glad I decided to turn in early. I went to sleep in the 4th.

PaleHoseGeorge
07-02-2005, 10:14 AM
Yeah...a curse doesn't cause Contreras to slam sliders directly into the ground, some 5 feet away from the hitter or the catcher. He's a wild pitch waiting to happen. .

Yep. Not even Hawk was trying to blame the umpire last night. Contreras was nibbling and/or wild all night and Oakland's hitters (as usual) just kept the bat on their shoulders and let him beat himself.

This team will only go as far as the pitchers carry them. It sure wasn't our glovework that kept us in the game, in spite of what the clueless "pitching and defense wins championships" cliche-spouters would have us believe.

:kukoo:

veeter
07-02-2005, 10:17 AM
KW will make a pitching move. Contreras, I feel, cannot be trusted in any playoff situation. It's too much to ask McCarthy to shoulder the load. By the deadline a trade will be made. For who I have no clue but KW will pull the trigger.

Frater Perdurabo
07-02-2005, 11:01 AM
He's not an "established pitcher" in the Major Leagues. I don't see why you can't ask him to change.

If he gets "lit up" doing what the coaching staff asks him to do, that's different than getting killed doing what they ask him not to do.

Nellie's exactly right. "Bubba Shrimp Brain" DELIBERATELY CHOOSES not to follow the orders of his manager and pitching coach. That's more than stupidity, it's insubordination.

Contreras has proven time and again that he can throw a strike. The problem is that he dinks and nibbles and wild pitches his way to 2-0, 3-0 and 3-1 counts and walks the bases loaded and allows runners to advance into scoring position. He puts himself into a position where he MUST throw a strike, and he grooves a fastball over the plate in the center of the batter's wheelhouse. Sometimes, the batter swings and misses. Sometimes, he grounds or lines out. Sometimes, he gets an RBI double.

He's got great stuff. That's why his opponents' batting average is so low. So, he ought to trust his fastball more and try to get ahead in the count from the first pitch to each batter. I cannot imagine that AJ, Widger and Coop are calling for pitches in the dirt or demanding that he throw balls. Consequently, it MUST be Contreras' utter stupidity that is the reason for his problems.

I repeat again. Contreras CAN throw strikes. He CHOOSES not to throw strikes.

Contreras makes Forrest Gump look like Albert Einstein. That's why he's "Bubba Shrimp Brain."

jerry
07-02-2005, 11:15 AM
I really would like to take 2 out of 3 against Oakland...I am tired of them losing to them over the last few years. I agree with all posters about Contreras. He thinks too much on the mound, takes too much time between pitches and walks too many people. He reminds me of a pitcher the Sox used to have who supposedly had great stuff , but was terrible (jaime navaro). Lets win the next two!!!

soxwon
07-02-2005, 11:26 AM
lets just put crede in a a's uni

and grab zito for our side.

balke
07-02-2005, 11:28 AM
lets just put crede in a a's uni

and grab zito for our side.


Zito sucks, why would you say that?

soxwon
07-02-2005, 11:33 AM
any arm is better than contreras right now.

zito has been a proven winner, and he will win again.
we need a new starter

SSN721
07-02-2005, 11:52 AM
lets just put crede in a a's uni

and grab zito for our side.

Who will play third then?

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 12:10 PM
Also, West, what did you mean by Manuel forfeiting a game in 2002? I don't remember that story.April 26, 2002 (http://baseball-almanac.com/box-scores/boxscore.php?boxid=200204260OAK). Ode and I were at the game. The Sox got an early lead and Rauch actually held Oakland down for 4 innings before they tied it up. Then Jerry inexplicably put in the beyond washed up Jim Parque in the sixth inning. Butter was coming off the DL and was no longer a major league pitcher. He was barely making the 80's on his fastball. He got pounded, the Sox lost. They tried to come back in the ninth, but came up short. We were bummed. But, we had seen nothing yet. We witnessed a 16-1 defeat on Saturday and a 10-0 thriller on Sunday. :o:

And we thought it was bad a year earlier when all the A's fans around us were laughing at us because Jerry had The Choice and Julio Ramirez batting at the bottom of the order in the same game. "Holy ****, I don't think I've ever seen a team with two guys hitting under .100 before. You guys suck!" :redface:

I don't believe in supernatural curses. But, the Sox are often not mentally sharp in Oakland for some reason. They didn't look too bad on the first trip this year. The umps screwed them that time. They weren't even really that bad last year. Billy Koch blew two games.

balke
07-02-2005, 12:13 PM
any arm is better than contreras right now.

zito has been a proven winner, and he will win again.
we need a new starter


Billy Koch was really good for a year too.

Edit: Let me also add that any arm is NOT BETTER than Contreras, and you people that have been in hiding all season make me sick that you are yellow enough to wait til one bad start (4 runs) to come out and say something about our #4 starter. You'll be the same guy who complains because we brought in Ted Lilly, he's another arm. Is he better than Contreras? Jesus I hate Dark Clouds.

ND_Sox_Fan
07-02-2005, 12:17 PM
I'm frankly shocked at the number of people who should know better that are buying into the whole Oakland "curse" thing. You can dress it up in other words, call it jet lag or whatever, but its BS. They sucked last night. You could be playing in Timbuktu and you'd still lose playing like that. It's not the first time they sucked, and in cities all around the country and at home. Contreras, after starting the season pretty well, has suddenly decided he has to strike everybody out, and that he's going to do it by getting hitters to chase his junk pitches. Harrelson nailed it:

Contreras + patient hitters = loss

And the offense wasn't any better. It's hard to win games with only 4 hits. I suspect Contreras tends to put his own offense to sleep.

They just had an awful game last night. They've done it before and they'll do it again. Curse, my ass.

Thank You. That pretty much says everything I was going to post. I was away from home last night, so I couldn't get on. However, I was taking notes as I read through the posts, and this was exactly what I wrote down.

This team has a passion for winning and an attitude that they will win every night that they take the field. I don't think that changes just because they get near Oakland. I think they would take all of these excuses for the loss as an insult.

I don't care if this team loses the next two games out there - it is still no excuse that it is Oakland. Play like that will lose in Detroit or Tampa as well.

On Jose, the guy will be scary to have pitch in the post season because the teams there will be patient, and will not be swinging like Sosa or Soriano.

White Sox Josh
07-02-2005, 12:22 PM
We can't afford Randa's defense on this ballclub; he's a 5 hole hitter and has 1 more homer and 7 more RBIs than Crede.
The bottom line is Randa is a career stiff and belongs on teams like Cincy and KC.

Tonight the Sox beat themselves. WE haven't done that much this year. I don't know why Contreras walks so damn many, but I wish he'd cease and desist.Randa is not that bad defensively though. And he isn't a career stiff either. he will probably be in the All Star Game as the Reds rep.

jabrch
07-02-2005, 12:38 PM
It's Oakland...what more needs to be said. Let's get the heck out of there, grab what we can with JG and Buehrle going the next two days, and then usher in the Devil Rays. Next weekend Oakland comes back here - and we can repay them in kind.

leftfieldbleachy
07-02-2005, 12:39 PM
Is it just me or is this entire thread an amazingly overblown concentration of angst given that the Sox are 53-25? Relax. They pitched well, we didn't score much. We didn't pitch well, they scored more. Over the next two games, we should pitch better.

White Sox Josh
07-02-2005, 12:41 PM
Is anyone else a little worried about Cotts? He hasn't been effective the last two outings. I hope he hasn't been overworked like he was last year.

TheOldRoman
07-02-2005, 12:49 PM
Is anyone else a little worried about Cotts? He hasn't been effective the last two outings. I hope he hasn't been overworked like he was last year.
Oh, you mean he "hasn't been effective" because he came into the game with one out and a runner on third and gave up a run? God forbid our bullpen give up a hit. It doesn't matter that he didn't put the runner on third. He should have struck two batters out instead of giving up a hit. He blows. Trade him!

SoxSpeed22
07-02-2005, 01:04 PM
We knew this would be the tough one. Let's just get 'em next game.

SOXfnNlansing
07-02-2005, 01:05 PM
Ah! Now we have to suffer through Chuck Garfein's hair plugs on the post game. Sandman cometh. He looks like he has eyeliner on also.......creepy:o:

SOXfnNlansing
07-02-2005, 01:09 PM
I'm not trying to be a dark cloud or anything, but I have a legitimate baseball question. Why would you put a guy who just got called up into a bases loaded, one out situation when you have other guys in the bullpen who have a day of rest thanks to Freddy's CG? This one decision obviously was not the deciding factor of the game, but I was just wondering what people thought about it.

oh, and 10BB, HPB and 3WP? That would = http://www.mpt.net.mm/planning/present.jpg His last outing before being sent down Ozzie did the same thing in ANA....... he gave up walks and the lead and was sent down. Maybe Ozzie is just trying to work Walker through his nervous period now when we can afford to lose games so when it's crunch time Walker will be more seasoned and focused. I may be full of bs by saying this but I just have to believe that Ozzie has his reasons .......

Lip Man 1
07-02-2005, 01:09 PM
Tale of the tape and other things:

From the Daily Southtown:

"The Sox are 3-19 in Oakland since 2001, and 13-47 against American League West Coast-based teams."

:o: :o: :o:

West since I think the Oakland situation is now more mental with the Sox then anything else I'd be curious if you'd post after tonight and let us know your impressions, I'd also appreciate knowing if you see any indications of guys 'pressing' in any way.

Lip

JB98
07-02-2005, 01:18 PM
*****. "Moneyball works against bad pitching." Jeez, anything works against bad pitching. Put any team out there against that many walks and wild pitches, and you've got trouble. In fact, they should be embarassed at how few runs they got against that many walks and wild pitches. Moneyball. BS.

Seriously, PHG and West nothwithstanding, I don't accept the "it's Oakland" as an excuse for this. I'm no dark clouder by any means, but listening to the Oakland announcers on the radio tonight, they were incredulous at Contreras's performance. They kept saying "with this guy's stuff, his 93-95 mph fastball with movement, why does he keep nibbling, and throwing breaking balls off the plate and into the dirt? Go after the hitters." When Ozzie went to the mound, they said "this is no discussion; Ozzie is doing all the talking."

Why? Because Contreras won't do what he's told to do. Work more quickly and trust your fastball, trust the defense. He needs to be told that he may not shake off the catchers. Throw the pitch that's called. Period. I don't care that the hitters in Cuba swung at that crap and got themselves out. This is the Major Leagues, and they won't swing at it. There is a Major League defense behind you. Go after them.

All good points, Nellie. I sense that Contreras is outdumbing himself out there. His stuff is good. He doesn't need to be analyzing every pitch. He should let AJ do the thinking and just concentrate on executing his pitches.

SOXfnNlansing
07-02-2005, 01:25 PM
Is it just me or do Oakland fans piss you off just as much or close to Cubs fans. They are the biggest jerks, and their constant "Let's Go Oakland" with their annoying horns really piss me off. Not only that, but they act as if every win is a World Series win. Grrr...I hate Oakland and their fans. I hate those horns and their fans looked like they escaped from a freak show. Did you see that creepy old man with the pom pons? It looked like only 12k 'fans' showed up on a Friday night also.

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 01:27 PM
West since I think the Oakland situation is now more mental with the Sox then anything else I'd be curious if you'd post after tonight and let us know your impressions, I'd also appreciate knowing if you see any indications of guys 'pressing' in any way.

LipWill do, Lip. If I survive. :redneck

gf2020
07-02-2005, 01:38 PM
The organization must owe this kid big time. Why was he brought in during that Angels game?

Jeffy B., is that you?

soxwon
07-02-2005, 01:54 PM
garland n buehrle, no problem

2 of 3 lets hope!!!

Cowhead418
07-02-2005, 01:57 PM
What are we all worrying about. :smokin: is on the mound today.

Frater Perdurabo
07-02-2005, 02:53 PM
Billy Koch was really good for a year too.

Edit: Let me also add that any arm is NOT BETTER than Contreras, and you people that have been in hiding all season make me sick that you are yellow enough to wait til one bad start (4 runs) to come out and say something about our #4 starter. You'll be the same guy who complains because we brought in Ted Lilly, he's another arm. Is he better than Contreras? Jesus I hate Dark Clouds.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't think anyone has a problem with Contreras' ARM. His arm is fine. It's better than fine; it's fantastic!

The problem is his brain. He's either an absolute mental midget with an IQ of 50 who just doesn't know any better, or he's incredibly stupid (and insubordinate) for not following Cooper's teachings, for not trusting his arm, for not listening to Ozzie and for not throwing the pitches his catchers call. In either case the result is the same.

I'll let him speak for himself, but I think soxwon is echoing Lip's call for KW to get another pitcher who may not have Contreras' arm, but knows how to pitch and is willing to throw strikes and trust the Sox defense to make outs.

White Sox Josh
07-02-2005, 03:25 PM
I can only speak for myself, but I don't think anyone has a problem with Contreras' ARM. His arm is fine. It's better than fine; it's fantastic!

The problem is his brain. He's either an absolute mental midget with an IQ of 50 who just doesn't know any better, or he's incredibly stupid (and insubordinate) for not following Cooper's teachings, for not trusting his arm, for not listening to Ozzie and for not throwing the pitches his catchers call. In either case the result is the same.

I'll let him speak for himself, but I think soxwon is echoing Lip's call for KW to get another pitcher who may not have Contreras' arm, but knows how to pitch and is willing to throw strikes and trust the Sox defense to make outs.Speaking of another pitcher I would love for the Sox to get El Duque's brother Livan Hernandez. He is a STUD.

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 04:29 PM
What are we all worrying about. :smokin: is on the mound today.I think the A's took his stash away. He's been pretty good lately. Hopefully the Sox sent him a little something when they got in town. :redneck

Mr. White Sox
07-02-2005, 04:50 PM
I think the A's took his stash away. He's been pretty good lately. Hopefully the Sox sent him a little something when they got in town. :redneck

I thought Saarloos was pitching today. Or is he :smokin: too?

The attendance of their game, on a Friday night, when their team is in the midst of an 8 game win streak, was 15,293

RallyBowl
07-02-2005, 05:23 PM
I can only speak for myself, but I don't think anyone has a problem with Contreras' ARM. His arm is fine. It's better than fine; it's fantastic!

The problem is his brain. He's either an absolute mental midget with an IQ of 50 who just doesn't know any better, or he's incredibly stupid (and insubordinate) for not following Cooper's teachings, for not trusting his arm, for not listening to Ozzie and for not throwing the pitches his catchers call. In either case the result is the same.

I'll let him speak for himself, but I think soxwon is echoing Lip's call for KW to get another pitcher who may not have Contreras' arm, but knows how to pitch and is willing to throw strikes and trust the Sox defense to make outs.well said.

SOX ADDICT '73
07-02-2005, 05:39 PM
Will do, Lip. If I survive. :redneck
West, who's going to bust skulls in the game thread if you're at the game? If trends continue, the Dark Clouds will have a field day tonight.

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 05:40 PM
I thought Saarloos was pitching today. Or is he :smokin: too?Cowhead said the Bonginator was going. I just checked and it does say Saarloosy. :D:

FarWestChicago
07-02-2005, 05:41 PM
West, who's going to bust skulls in the game thread if you're at the game? If trends continue, the Dark Clouds will have a field day tonight.You guys can give 'em hell if they get a chance to party. :cool:

soxwon
07-04-2005, 12:24 PM
Who will play third then?

trade crede, borchard and contreras for zito and chavez.
chavez is awesome.

but all in all, we will make a deal, and it wont be for zito or schmidt.