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Podzilla_40
06-26-2005, 01:27 PM
I know he is making somewhere around 10 million, but how much are the Sox on the books for? I remember the Yankees threw in cash considerations but I'm not sure if it was just for '04.

owensmouth
06-26-2005, 02:01 PM
The Yankees are still paying his signing bonus, about 1.5 million this year.

soxfanreggie
06-26-2005, 02:05 PM
Think the Sox will resign him? for less? who knows...

owensmouth
06-26-2005, 02:30 PM
Think the Sox will resign him? for less? who knows...He's signed through next year

Jurr
06-26-2005, 03:33 PM
I have always found it funny that everybody makes all of these production/cost statements about Konerko, but you never hear anybody rant about JC's production vs. cost. He's making something like 8.75 mil/year, and he's nothing above serviceable. He does have some absolutely nasty stuff, but he can't focus enough on his job over the course of a game. Jose is by far the most unnerving pitcher we have, and I do think he's pretty good at his job. However, for that amount of money, you think we'd get more out of him.

FarWestChicago
06-26-2005, 04:54 PM
I have always found it funny that everybody makes all of these production/cost statements about Konerko:hijacked:

You aPaulogists are too much. :rolleyes:

mmmmmbeeer
06-26-2005, 05:31 PM
we're paying him like $6.5M this season and next.

Jurr
06-26-2005, 06:18 PM
:hijacked:

You aPaulogists are too much. :rolleyes:
Nooooo!! I'm not an aPaulogist. I am clearly on the fence in that regard. I'm in that gray 'let's sign him at 8-9 mil per but no more' group.

I was just noting that the PK thing has taken up almost 1,000 posts, yet nobody has EVER really talked about JC's contract.

Jurr
06-26-2005, 06:21 PM
we're paying him like $6.5M this season and next.
Born: December 6, 1971
Full Name: Jose Ariel Contreras
College: None
Experience: 2 years
2005 Salary: $8,500,000
The Yankees picked up the signing bonus, but we're on the hook for 8.5.

balke
06-26-2005, 06:41 PM
Nooooo!! I'm not an aPaulogist. I am clearly on the fence in that regard. I'm in that gray 'let's sign him at 8-9 mil per but no more' group.

I was just noting that the PK thing has taken up almost 1,000 posts, yet nobody has EVER really talked about JC's contract.

What are you talking about, people talk about his contract all the time. Or should I say, WHINE about it. They thought they could fix something in his delivery, and he's been pretty good this season. He'll hit a few bumps in the road, but he's very valuable. Doesn't he lead the sox in Quality Starts?

munchman33
06-26-2005, 06:42 PM
Nooooo!! I'm not an aPaulogist. I am clearly on the fence in that regard. I'm in that gray 'let's sign him at 8-9 mil per but no more' group.

I was just noting that the PK thing has taken up almost 1,000 posts, yet nobody has EVER really talked about JC's contract.

If paying a .250 hitter who's had one good season 8-9 million is the gray area, then what do the crazies want to pay him?

Ridiculous.

Podzilla_40
06-26-2005, 07:47 PM
Think the Sox will resign him? for less? who knows...
Nope, Jose's a nice stopgap but I think if we could sign one great starting pitcher before 2007 we could easily be a WS favorite.

Buehrle
Garcia
Garland
???
McCarthy

That's pretty damn good.

Flight #24
06-26-2005, 09:25 PM
Born: December 6, 1971
Full Name: Jose Ariel Contreras
College: None
Experience: 2 years
2005 Salary: $8,500,000
The Yankees picked up the signing bonus, but we're on the hook for 8.5.

Actually, I'm reasonably (i.e. 75%) certain that the Sox are on the hook for $6mil. There's some sort of deferred bonus or incentive type of payment made each year that the Spankees are on the hook for.

Edit: this is per MSNBC.com, so it may not be right, but it jives with what I thought.

Contreras has $17,382,978 remaining on his contract. The Yankees are giving the White Sox money to cover $1 million of his $7 million salary next year and $2 million of his $8 million salary in 2006.

santo=dorf
06-26-2005, 09:27 PM
Actually, I'm reasonably (i.e. 75%) certain that the Sox are on the hook for $6mil. There's some sort of deferred bonus or incentive type of payment made each year that the Spankees are on the hook for.

Edit: this is per MSNBC.com, so it may not be right, but it jives with what I thought.

Yes that is correct.

$1 million of $7 million = $6 million for 2005
$2 million of $8 million = $6 million for 2006.

CubsfansareDRUNK
06-26-2005, 09:29 PM
Nope, Jose's a nice stopgap but I think if we could sign one great starting pitcher before 2007 we could easily be a WS favorite.

Buehrle
Garcia
Garland
???
McCarthy

That's pretty damn good.

esteban loaiza

The Dude
06-27-2005, 01:02 AM
esteban loaiza

:chunks

lostletters
06-27-2005, 03:31 AM
While his contract price is insanely high KW got him because he was locked in through 2006. KW is always looking for better starters, but sometimes you cannot be picky. The price is one of those yankee contracts, which are always to costly. Do I think he is worth that price...no. He is worth about 3-4 million. But he is still a good pitcher 2/3 to half the time.

While JC is inconsistant, he is still fairly decent. He is one of the few pitchers that even when he is having a bad game is still willing to pitch 6-7 innings and buckle down. I see him more as a work in progress then servicable. He has improved over last year imo. The main problem is the Sox do not give him the same run support afforded to every other pitcher on this staff. Most of his games he allows three runs and the sox usually do not score any runs until they hit the bullpen in those games. Taking in reality he is actually our number four or five guy, it is not bad. This may be bad luck on JCs part, runs come when they come, but it would be nice for the Sox to step it up a notch for him and at least score 3-4 runs early in the game for him.

Also I think the main problem with JC is he lacks confidence in his entire arsenal of pitches. He falls in love with his forkball, at the expense of every other pitch he can throw, and its the forkball of his which is hit out of the park on a regular basis. If he used that pitch sparingly and pitched with confidence he would be more effective.

Also Buerhle leads the team in quality starts.

CubKilla
06-27-2005, 03:41 AM
While his contract price is insanely high KW got him because he was locked in through 2006. KW is always looking for better starters, but sometimes you cannot be picky. The price is one of those yankee contracts, which are always to costly. Do I think he is worth that price...no. He is worth about 3-4 million. But he is still a good pitcher 2/3 to half the time.

While JC is inconsistant, he is still fairly decent. He is one of the few pitchers that even when he is having a bad game is still willing to pitch 6-7 innings and buckle down. I see him more as a work in progress then servicable. He has improved over last year imo. The main problem is the Sox do not give him the same run support afforded to every other pitcher on this staff. Most of his games he allows three runs and the sox usually do not score any runs until they hit the bullpen in those games. Taking in reality he is actually our number four or five guy, it is not bad. This may be bad luck on JCs part, runs come when they come, but it would be nice for the Sox to step it up a notch for him and at least score 3-4 runs early in the game for him.

Also I think the main problem with JC is he lacks confidence in his entire arsenal of pitches. He falls in love with his forkball, at the expense of every other pitch he can throw, and its the forkball of his which is hit out of the park on a regular basis. If he used that pitch sparingly and pitched with confidence he would be more effective.

Also Buerhle leads the team in quality starts.

After all that, Contreras still blows.....

Mr. White Sox
06-27-2005, 04:07 AM
If paying a .250 hitter who's had one good season 8-9 million is the gray area, then what do the crazies want to pay him?
Ridiculous.

ehhhhhhh, I'm not a huge PK fan, simply because it is as though the space-time continuum around him is speeding up due to his insane slowness, but...
1999: .294, 24HR, 81RBI, 4 3B(:?:wha happen?!)
2000: .298, 97RBI
2001: .282, 32 HR, 91RBI
2002: .304, 104RBI
2004: .277, 41HR, 117RBI
This year: .251, 18HR, 52RBI

I'd have to say, he's had one off year (2003, injury-shortened too, right?) while with the Sox and the rest were very, very solid years (not to mention this year, which has some great power numbers). I'd say he's worth 8-9mil per year for the Sox, and more ($9.5/$10mil?) for teams with higher payrolls (Look for the Spankyees/Braves or maybe the Astros to sign him in the offseason, if PK is looking for more money that is).

SoxFanTillDeath
06-27-2005, 09:20 AM
Can we please get off JC's case? I'm tired of hearing how bad of a starter he is. It seems like if any other pitcher has a bad game than that's exactly what it is: a bad game. But every time JC gives up more than 2 runs in a game the sky is falling and we better trade him for someone else or we will never win another game in this league.

He has an ERA of 4.15 in 15 games this year, which we would all be begging for in the past couple years, and now we want him out of here? What? He's improved drastically this year (5.3 ERA with the Sox last year), and opponents are batting in the low .200s off of him (couldn't find the exact stat, but IIRC it's something like .217).

As essentially our 4th starter these are some excellent numbers and I am perfectly content with Jose Contreras as the 4th starter on the First Place Chicago White Sox (as Brian Dolgin would put it...)

wdelaney72
06-27-2005, 09:30 AM
Can we please get off JC's case? I'm tired of hearing how bad of a starter he is. It seems like if any other pitcher has a bad game than that's exactly what it is: a bad game. But every time JC gives up more than 2 runs in a game the sky is falling and we better trade him for someone else or we will never win another game in this league.

He has an ERA of 4.15 in 15 games this year, which we would all be begging for in the past couple years, and now we want him out of here? What? He's improved drastically this year (5.3 ERA with the Sox last year), and opponents are batting in the low .200s off of him (couldn't find the exact stat, but IIRC it's something like .217).

As essentially our 4th starter these are some excellent numbers and I am perfectly content with Jose Contreras as the 4th starter on the First Place Chicago White Sox (as Brian Dolgin would put it...)

No, I won't get off a guy's case who's making $9 MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. Call me crazy, but I expect these clowns to earn their salaries. While JC his pitched some nice games this year, he's been far less than dominating, and less than worth the $6 million were paying him, whch doesn't even include the Yankees portion of his salary.

munchman33
06-27-2005, 09:31 AM
ehhhhhhh, I'm not a huge PK fan, simply because it is as though the space-time continuum around him is speeding up due to his insane slowness, but...
1999: .294, 24HR, 81RBI, 4 3B(:?:wha happen?!)
2000: .298, 97RBI
2001: .282, 32 HR, 91RBI
2002: .304, 104RBI
2004: .277, 41HR, 117RBI
This year: .251, 18HR, 52RBI

I'd have to say, he's had one off year (2003, injury-shortened too, right?) while with the Sox and the rest were very, very solid years (not to mention this year, which has some great power numbers). I'd say he's worth 8-9mil per year for the Sox, and more ($9.5/$10mil?) for teams with higher payrolls (Look for the Spankyees/Braves or maybe the Astros to sign him in the offseason, if PK is looking for more money that is).

Outside of 2004, I don't see a $8-10 million a year first basemen. We'd be better off letting Paulie go and trading for someone like Overbay in the offseason.

FedEx227
06-27-2005, 12:02 PM
Are you serious?

I see two 90+ RBI years, and two 100+ RBI years..

While Overbay is up and coming, thats still great production even though the average isn't quite there.

S.S. Lumber Yard
06-27-2005, 12:11 PM
We'll have to see how the season ends up. But if Konerko wants more money, you most definently have to let him go. He's the highest paid White Sox when it should be Mark Buehrle. That's 9 million! C. Lee was only making around 8 mil and we turned that into Iguchi, El Duque, Dye, and Pierzynski. We could do a lot with Konerko's 9 mil, plus you know he'll want a pay raise. And you would have to be stupid to pay the slow footed konerko 10 mil per.

Does anyone know a list of free agents, at 1B, for next year?

santo=dorf
06-27-2005, 12:15 PM
After all that, Contreras still blows.....

What a shock! The Sox lose two in a row, and Cubkilla comes back to the board complaining and making negative comments!

His ERA is over 4 for the first time this season. I suppose you would rather see Munoz, Diaz, or Rauch so you can make your daily "JR is cheap" rant. :?:

wdelaney72
06-27-2005, 12:26 PM
What a shock! The Sox lose two in a row, and Cubkilla comes back to the board complaining and making negative comments!

His ERA is over 4 for the first time this season. I suppose you would rather see Munoz, Diaz, or Rauch so you can make your daily "JR is cheap" rant. :?:

I don't know either of you guys very well, but I don't care if this is the first time of the season or not. A pitcher making the money that Contreras is making should NEVER be over a 4.00 era.

34 Inch Stick
06-27-2005, 12:35 PM
I wonder if many of the people who think JC is overpaid pay attention to baseball during the off season. Did any of you notice the contracts that were given to pitchers of similar ability?

santo=dorf
06-27-2005, 12:46 PM
I don't know either of you guys very well, but I don't care if this is the first time of the season or not. A pitcher making the money that Contreras is making should NEVER be over a 4.00 era.

Have you seen the market?

There are 22 starters in the American League with an ERA below 4, and 31 with an ERA above 4.00. Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching?seasonType=2&type=reg&sort=ERA&split=0&season=2005&pos=all&hand=a&league=al&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&qual=true&count=14)

Here are some pitchers making more or close to the same ammount as Contreras and their ERA's:
Pavano 4.69
Wells 5.00
Park 5.75
Onson 5.42
Sabathia 4.60
Zito 4.41
Radke 4.08 That's the Twins ****ING #2 starter!!!

NL Pitchers
Penny 3.83
Maddux 4.56
Vazquez 4.53
Mulder 4.75
Schmidt 4.83
Glavine 4.93
Lieber 4.93
Russ Ortiz 5.88
Milton 7.70

S.S. Lumber Yard
06-27-2005, 12:53 PM
Jose is our #3 starter, so I don't see such a jurassic difference there with Radke.

In reality,

Garland
Buehrle
Garcia

is our 1-2-3 punch. Just like in reality Silva is the Twins #2. Right now Jose is not making his money and the same goes for Paulie.

santo=dorf
06-27-2005, 01:00 PM
Jose is our #3 starter, so I don't see such a jurassic difference there with Radke.

In reality,

Garland
Buehrle
Garcia

is our 1-2-3 punch. Just like in reality Silva is the Twins #2. Right now Jose is not making his money and the same goes for Paulie.

Well then I'm just wasting my time pointing out the facts to a poster like yourself.

:whatever:

S.S. Lumber Yard
06-27-2005, 01:05 PM
Well then I'm just wasting my time pointing out the facts to a poster like yourself.

:whatever:

What facts? That Radke is the Twinkies' #2? Everybody knows that, but I'm just pointing out the fact that Jose is our #3. And they both suck! Of course they can change it around as the season is not even halfway over. It's important for a fan of the game to realize there is the 1-5 you come into the season with and then there is the real 1-5 that is determined by pitching performances throughout the season.

That's why the Twins rotation from top to bottom looks like this:

Santana
Silva
Radke
Mays
Lohse

maurice
06-27-2005, 01:09 PM
Who cares if Contreras is not earning the money the Yankees are paying him? I only care about what the White Sox are paying him. For $6 mil / year, his performance is reasonable.

Konerko, OTOH, gets all of his $8.75 million from the Sox. He also has a trade kicker that makes him very difficult to move (see last offseason). If the Sox were paying him only 6, you'd hear a lot less criticism directed at the snail-like 1B who went 1-11 this past weekend.

santo=dorf
06-27-2005, 01:13 PM
What facts? That Radke is the Twinkies' #2? Everybody knows that, but I'm just pointing out the fact that Jose is our #3. And they both suck! Of course they can change it around as the season is not even halfway over. It's important for a fan of the game to realize there is the 1-5 you come into the season with and then there is the real 1-5 that is determined by pitching performances throughout the season.

That's why the Twins rotation from top to bottom looks like this:

Santana
Silva
Radke
Mays
Lohse

Contreras is pitching above the mean of American League starters. Did you see the deals that Milton, Wright, Pavano, Benson, Paul Wilson, Russ Ortiz, Brad Radke, Jon Lieber, Odalis Perez, Smoltz's extension, and Randy Johnson's extension all this entire offseason? :?:

I say $6 million is fair for a guy who was holding batters to an .200 BAA for some time. He's been in a slump right now, his ERA is over 4.00 for the first time this season (hell, it's only 4.15 in the AMERICAN LEAGUE!) and yet people post crap how nobody making $6 million should ever have an ERA over 4.00, or how Jose being our #3 starter making $6 million is similar to Brad Radke being the #2 starter and making $9 million (that's 1.5 times what Contreras makes. Is he pitching 1.5 times better than Contreras this year pal?) of our main divisonal rival.

Let's put this crap to rest.

:threadsucks

maurice
06-27-2005, 01:14 PM
BTW, Contreras is 27th in the AL in ERA among starters, though he plays his home games in an extreme hitters' park. Since there are 70 slots for starting pitchers in the the AL, 27th in the league is pretty damn solid for your #4 starter.

Frater Perdurabo
06-27-2005, 02:31 PM
BTW, Contreras is 27th in the AL in ERA among starters, though he plays his home games in an extreme hitters' park. Since there are 70 slots for starting pitchers in the the AL, 27th in the league is pretty damn solid for your #4 starter.

I agree, Maurice. However, what's so frustrating about Contreras to me is that he combines his $10 million arm with a ten cent brain. The problem Saturday was not the number of hits the Cubs got off of him, it was his mental meltdown in the first inning. By loading the bases with less than two outs after the bunt single through a HBP and a walk, Contreras put himself into a situation where he had to throw a pitch right in Aramis Ramirez's wheelhouse.

IMHO, Contreras is one of those guys who has made it to the big leagues by dominating opposing pitchers to the extent that they are almost afraid of a batter's bat hitting the ball. And even in the majors, most of the time they do well. But they also are their own worst enemies. They think that they have to get strikeouts to win games and don't trust their defenses. They shake off their catchers' signs. They fiddle-fart around, rack up high pitch counts by throwing far too many balls, try to nibble at the corners and end up walking batters. Then they get into 2-0, 3-0 and 3-1 jams and have to resort to throwing fastballs right down the middle of the plate to dangerous hitters. Sometimes, they get the K. Other times, they give up the three-run homer or grand slam to put their teams in huge holes.

If Contreras had one-quarter the pitching intelligence of a guy like Buehrle, he'd be one of the top five pitchers in the game right now.

maurice
06-27-2005, 02:53 PM
Oh, Contreras frustrates me as well. Million dollar arm, ten-cent head indeed. I hate guys who can't (or refuse to) throw strikes consistently . . . but the talent and production are there. Call this the Contreras correlary to my Cotts rule:

Contreras + strikes = outs.

balke
06-27-2005, 04:27 PM
IThe problem Saturday was not the number of hits the Cubs got off of him, it was his mental meltdown in the first inning. By loading the bases with less than two outs after the bunt single through a HBP and a walk, Contreras put himself into a situation where he had to throw a pitch right in Aramis Ramirez's wheelhouse.

I know people would throw a hissy fit because he got hit that first inning. The truth to that is, Aramis Ramirez beat him, thats all. I wish he had been more aggressive against Burnitz, I think a strike to Burnitz would've been a pop-up at best... but he got stuck going after Ramirez who is on fire. Corey got on with a good bunt, and I forget how the other batter got on.. but its not like he was terrible that inning. The Cubs were just doing to the Sox what the SOx do to everyone else, putting speed aboard and getting players on base early. Contreras is now due for a completely dominant performance, as 2 of his last 3 have been below average for him. The rest of the season, he's gotten himself out of all his jams, this was the only game it caught up to him. He doesn't deserve flack about his salary from people that have been waiting until he had a bad outing to say something bad about him. Where were they 2 weeks ago?

After Ramirez, Contreras was great.


If Contreras had one-quarter the pitching intelligence of a guy like Buehrle, he'd be one of the top five pitchers in the game right now.

He'd be a lot better if he threw more strikes to the correct batters, and used his fastball more yes. Its obvious he gets flustered from time to time, but for the majority of the year he's buckled down when his back is against the wall.

DaleJRFan
06-27-2005, 04:33 PM
Oh, Contreras frustrates me as well. Million dollar arm, ten-cent head indeed. I hate guys who can't (or refuse to) throw strikes consistently . . . but the talent and production are there. Call this the Contreras correlary to my Cotts rule:

Contreras + strikes = outs.

I've gotta go with Maurice here... He has a premiere fastball and he needs to trust it. He kills himself by walking guys and by hanging forkballs... I watched him in agony shaking off AJ this weekend when he should follow suit with the rest of the rotation and throw what AJ calls. It has worked for Garland, Buehrle and Garcia.

I'm not ready to throw Contreras under the bus just yet, but I am growing tired of the 110 pitch, 6 inning outings. I watch his outings hoping he can pitch out of jams, walking 2 guys an inning or beaning guys... I shouldn't have to "hope" he can pitch out of jams he shouldn't have put himself into in the first place. C'mon Jose, we know you got the skills... throw strikes, let the D work around you.

Frater Perdurabo
06-27-2005, 05:22 PM
I hate guys who can't (or refuse to) throw strikes consistently . . .

That, in a nutshell, is the problem. Guys with 10-cent brains can throw strikes. They simply refuse to do so far too often and therefore get behind in the count and give up way too many walks, which means they have to aim the next pitch right down the middle of the plate on a 2-0 count with the bases jammed because they don't want to walk in a run.

Jurr
06-27-2005, 05:37 PM
That, in a nutshell, is the problem. Guys with 10-cent brains can throw strikes. They simply refuse to do so far too often and therefore get behind in the count and give up way too many walks, which means they have to aim the next pitch right down the middle of the plate on a 2-0 count with the bases jammed because they don't want to walk in a run.
I stand corrected with the contract thing. If the Sox indeed are on the hook for only 6 million dollars a year, they're getting a helluva bargain. The thing you want out of all of your pitchers is to keep you in the game. He's definitely keeping the Sox in games. That's why he's only got 7 decisions.

If you're paying 9-10 million a year on a starter, you are paying him to be a stopper. That's the guy you're paying to take the bull by the horns and win a game. For 6 million, you're asking a guy to keep you in the games, and JC is definitely doing that.

Frater Perdurabo
06-27-2005, 05:42 PM
I stand corrected with the contract thing. If the Sox indeed are on the hook for only 6 million dollars a year, they're getting a helluva bargain. The thing you want out of all of your pitchers is to keep you in the game. He's definitely keeping the Sox in games. That's why he's only got 7 decisions.

If you're paying 9-10 million a year on a starter, you are paying him to be a stopper. That's the guy you're paying to take the bull by the horns and win a game. For 6 million, you're asking a guy to keep you in the games, and JC is definitely doing that.

I agree. But if he were to grow a larger brain and throw strikes more often, he'd be worth at least $9-10 million per year, if not more, and probably a candidate for the Cy Young Award.

Ol' No. 2
06-27-2005, 05:45 PM
I've gotta go with Maurice here... He has a premiere fastball and he needs to trust it. He kills himself by walking guys and by hanging forkballs... I watched him in agony shaking off AJ this weekend when he should follow suit with the rest of the rotation and throw what AJ calls. It has worked for Garland, Buehrle and Garcia.

I'm not ready to throw Contreras under the bus just yet, but I am growing tired of the 110 pitch, 6 inning outings. I watch his outings hoping he can pitch out of jams, walking 2 guys an inning or beaning guys... I shouldn't have to "hope" he can pitch out of jams he shouldn't have put himself into in the first place. C'mon Jose, we know you got the skills... throw strikes, let the D work around you.Bingo. Watching Contreras do his slow dance you just knew he was going to be in trouble. After Ozzie came out and reamed him he stopped shaking AJ off so much.

He seems very streaky. In May and June he got into a nice rhythm and threw 4 quality starts in a row. In the end, if he throws 50% QS, that's about as good as it's going to get.

And someone please tell me what his salary has to do with it. Would you be happy with him if he was making only $3M?

Jurr
06-27-2005, 05:46 PM
I agree. But if he were to grow a larger brain and throw strikes more often, he'd be worth at least $9-10 million per year, if not more, and probably a candidate for the Cy Young Award.
Ohhh yeah. He does have the stuff, but not enough upstairs. If the Red Sux and Yankmees didn't get in that big "Evil Empire" bidding war, JC would probably be a 6-7 million dollar guy. That seems to be the level he's at, considering brains + physical ability.

Tragg
06-27-2005, 09:54 PM
No, I won't get off a guy's case who's making $9 MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. Call me crazy, but I expect these clowns to earn their salaries. While JC his pitched some nice games this year, he's been far less than dominating, and less than worth the $6 million were paying him, whch doesn't even include the Yankees portion of his salary.

The gist of your complaint is really against Steinbrenner. I figure we're paying him $1 million more than we paid Clayton and Valentin. Still overpaid, perhaps, but definitely better for $5 mill for those 2.

hold2dibber
06-28-2005, 03:26 PM
Contreras is pitching above the mean of American League starters. Did you see the deals that Milton, Wright, Pavano, Benson, Paul Wilson, Russ Ortiz, Brad Radke, Jon Lieber, Odalis Perez, Smoltz's extension, and Randy Johnson's extension all this entire offseason? :?:

I say $6 million is fair for a guy who was holding batters to an .200 BAA for some time. He's been in a slump right now, his ERA is over 4.00 for the first time this season (hell, it's only 4.15 in the AMERICAN LEAGUE!) and yet people post crap how nobody making $6 million should ever have an ERA over 4.00, or how Jose being our #3 starter making $6 million is similar to Brad Radke being the #2 starter and making $9 million (that's 1.5 times what Contreras makes. Is he pitching 1.5 times better than Contreras this year pal?) of our main divisonal rival.

Let's put this crap to rest.

B-I-N-G-O

Anyone who thinks Contreras isn't earning the Sox portion of his salary this year is completely out of touch with reality -- the fact of the matter is, the market price for a pitcher performing at the level Contreras has performed at, is certainly at -- and probably considerably more -- than the $6 million he's earning. I don't think its really even debatable.

eriqjaffe
06-28-2005, 03:39 PM
Would you be happy with him if he was making only $3M?No, but it would be easier to justify putting him in the 'pen, and it would also be considerably easier to deal him if necessary.

Ol' No. 2
06-28-2005, 03:48 PM
No, but it would be easier to justify putting him in the 'pen, and it would also be considerably easier to deal him if necessary.Why in the world would anyone want to put Jose Contreras in the bullpen?:?: I keep hearing this and it makes absolutely no sense. Would you want to see him coming in from the pen with the bases loaded in a late-inning situation?:o:

hold2dibber
06-28-2005, 03:48 PM
ehhhhhhh, I'm not a huge PK fan, simply because it is as though the space-time continuum around him is speeding up due to his insane slowness, but...
1999: .294, 24HR, 81RBI, 4 3B(:?:wha happen?!)
2000: .298, 97RBI
2001: .282, 32 HR, 91RBI
2002: .304, 104RBI
2004: .277, 41HR, 117RBI
This year: .251, 18HR, 52RBI

I'd have to say, he's had one off year (2003, injury-shortened too, right?) while with the Sox and the rest were very, very solid years (not to mention this year, which has some great power numbers). I'd say he's worth 8-9mil per year for the Sox, and more ($9.5/$10mil?) for teams with higher payrolls (Look for the Spankyees/Braves or maybe the Astros to sign him in the offseason, if PK is looking for more money that is).

I'm not sure where I come out on the "what is Paulie worth" question, but here are some numbers to consider -- these are the 162 game averages for several prominent 1st basemen over their respective careers (not including 2005) as well as '05 salary:

Player A: 25 HR, 108 RBI, .875 OPS, $11 million (10 seasons)
Player B: 29 HR, 99 RBI, .826 OPS, $8.75 million (8 seasons)
Player C: 39 HR, 119 RBI, .877 OPS, $12.5 million* (8 seasons)
Player D: 38 HR, 120 RBI, .948 OPS, $13 million* (12 seasons)
Player E: 26 HR, 82 RBI, .827 OPS, $7.67 million (8 seasons)

(* average salary over life of back-loaded contract)





The players:

A - Mike Sweeney
B - Konerko
C - Richie Sexson
D - Carlos Delgado
E - Derek Lee

Assuming he keeps up his current level of production and ends the season with 35+ HRs and 100+ RBIs, I would expect PK to earn a bit less than Delgado and Sexson did on the free agent market last winter - in other words, probably 4 years/$40 million, or something like that.

maurice
06-28-2005, 04:21 PM
"How much will he get?" is not the end of the inquiry. The key question is whether he's worth about 1/7th of the payroll on a team like the Sox. IMHO, the answer to that question is a resounding "hell no!"

I'd also point out that Konerko is easily the worst of those 5 1Bs, though he has a "health" edge on Sweeney and Sexton.

wdelaney72
06-28-2005, 04:43 PM
Also, take away a full season's average. How many of these players have the ridiculously long slumps that PK has.

Flight #24
06-28-2005, 05:04 PM
Player A: 25 HR, 108 RBI, .875 OPS, $11 million (10 seasons)
Player B: 29 HR, 99 RBI, .826 OPS, $8.75 million (8 seasons)
Player C: 39 HR, 119 RBI, .877 OPS, $12.5 million* (8 seasons)
Player D: 38 HR, 120 RBI, .948 OPS, $13 million* (12 seasons)
Player E: 26 HR, 82 RBI, .827 OPS, $7.67 million (8 seasons)

(* average salary over life of back-loaded contract)


# of seasons with OPS over .900 in their career:
Sexson: 2
Sweeney: 4
Delgado: 8 (2 over 1.000)
Lee: 0
Konerko: 0

Now factor in that Lee's played the majority of time in a pitchers park, is a gold-glove 1B, and has decent speed whereas Paulie's played the majority in a hitters park, is an adequate 1B, and is slower than Herm Schneider....and makes 2 mil more.

Ol' No. 2
06-28-2005, 05:13 PM
# of seasons with OPS over .900 in their career:
Sexson: 2
Sweeney: 4
Delgado: 8 (2 over 1.000)
Lee: 0
Konerko: 0

Now factor in that Lee's played the majority of time in a pitchers park, is a gold-glove 1B, and has decent speed whereas Paulie's played the majority in a hitters park, is an adequate 1B, and is slower than Herm Schneider....and makes 2 mil more.You're inadvertantly arguing in favor of inconsistency (i.e. a player with a few very good years over an arbitrary threshhold and a lot of years well below it over a player who's consistently just below it).

Flight #24
06-28-2005, 05:22 PM
You're inadvertantly arguing in favor of inconsistency (i.e. a player with a few very good years over an arbitrary threshhold and a lot of years well below it over a player who's consistently just below it).

Well, if you look at each players #s, Konerko's "good" years are much more like "decent" years for the rest. The .900 threshold was meant to show that he's never been great, whereas the others have. I could just as easily have posted the # of years each guy has put up that's better than Konerko's best year. I just didn't want to post 5+years of stats for 5 players.

Also, I think there's a difference between a guy who's been inconsistent because of injury and a guy who's just plain inconsistent. The former is a case where you may pay a higher price because you believe they're healthy, i.e. Sexson. In fact that would apply to Sweeney as well since IIRC when Sweeney signed his deal he wasn't yet injury-ridden. The latter is harder to explain and therefore harder to project won't happen again. Now obviously if a guy is just a bad injury risk (Sweeney), then you wouldn't give him that $$$ again. I'd rate Konerko and Sweeney similarly because if healthy, Mike will likely put up better #s. And I'd rate neither as worth $8+M. Now some GM out there may, in which case I'd say let him go.

Ol' No. 2
06-28-2005, 05:34 PM
Well, if you look at each players #s, Konerko's "good" years are much more like "decent" years for the rest. The .900 threshold was meant to show that he's never been great, whereas the others have. I could just as easily have posted the # of years each guy has put up that's better than Konerko's best year. I just didn't want to post 5+years of stats for 5 players.

Also, I think there's a difference between a guy who's been inconsistent because of injury and a guy who's just plain inconsistent. The former is a case where you may pay a higher price because you believe they're healthy, i.e. Sexson. In fact that would apply to Sweeney as well since IIRC when Sweeney signed his deal he wasn't yet injury-ridden. The latter is harder to explain and therefore harder to project won't happen again. Now obviously if a guy is just a bad injury risk (Sweeney), then you wouldn't give him that $$$ again. I'd rate Konerko and Sweeney similarly because if healthy, Mike will likely put up better #s. And I'd rate neither as worth $8+M. Now some GM out there may, in which case I'd say let him go.I don't think anyone would argue that PK isn't toward the bottom end of that group. But he's also well below all but Lee in salary. Given the general inflation in salaries year to year, I'd project $9-10M as a reasonable price for him for 2006. Maybe they'll re-sign him at that price. Maybe they won't. There are too many unknowns right now to know the answer to that. And frankly, I'm not the least bit concerned about it now.

Flight #24
06-28-2005, 05:44 PM
I don't think anyone would argue that PK isn't toward the bottom end of that group. But he's also well below all but Lee in salary. Given the general inflation in salaries year to year, I'd project $9-10M as a reasonable price for him for 2006. Maybe they'll re-sign him at that price. Maybe they won't. There are too many unknowns right now to know the answer to that. And frankly, I'm not the least bit concerned about it now.

IMO there's better ways to spend $9mil.

Ol' No. 2
06-28-2005, 05:45 PM
IMO there's better ways to spend $9mil.I'll wait until I've savored the World Series Victory for a few weeks before deciding.

Optipessimism
06-29-2005, 05:58 AM
Contreras is pitching above the mean of American League starters....

I say $6 million is fair for a guy who was holding batters to an .200 BAA for some time...

Let's put this crap to rest.

Thank you. For all the negative crap about Jose, he is FAR AND AWAY an improvement over the Loaiza/Grilli/Rauch/Danny Wrong/Arnie Munoz/Diaz garbage we were all treated to last year. Remember, we entered 2004 I believe with Schoenweis as our #4 starter.

Let's also consider that Jose has TREMENDOUSLY improved since last year when he spent time with the Yanks and with us. Does anyone remember how happy NY was to get Loaiza for this guy? They thought they got a huge steal, but in fact KW was the one getting the deal. He's shown, albeit somewhat rarely this year, that he can work quick at times. When he works quick and uses his fastball he can be dominating. I wouldn't be surprised to see him go into the 2006/2007 offseason as one of the hottest pitchers on the market if he continues to improve at the rate he has been since coming to the South Side. Remember that last start against the Cubs? He blew up early and then turned it around. He wasn't doing this at all last year in NY, which is why just about every other game he started you would have about 40,000 Yanks fans willing to pack his bags for him. Call me crazy, but he could be in line for a breakout year next year. Kudos to KW on the change of scenery deal.

Optipessimism
06-29-2005, 06:08 AM
How much money is Paulie worth? Next year's FA market will decide that. And by that I mean the Mets will decide that when they offer some huge contract to an overrated 1B.

Jurr
06-29-2005, 08:17 AM
Thank you. For all the negative crap about Jose, he is FAR AND AWAY an improvement over the Loaiza/Grilli/Rauch/Danny Wrong/Arnie Munoz/Diaz garbage we were all treated to last year. Remember, we entered 2004 I believe with Schoenweis as our #4 starter.

Let's also consider that Jose has TREMENDOUSLY improved since last year when he spent time with the Yanks and with us. Does anyone remember how happy NY was to get Loaiza for this guy? They thought they got a huge steal, but in fact KW was the one getting the deal. He's shown, albeit somewhat rarely this year, that he can work quick at times. When he works quick and uses his fastball he can be dominating. I wouldn't be surprised to see him go into the 2006/2007 offseason as one of the hottest pitchers on the market if he continues to improve at the rate he has been since coming to the South Side. Remember that last start against the Cubs? He blew up early and then turned it around. He wasn't doing this at all last year in NY, which is why just about every other game he started you would have about 40,000 Yanks fans willing to pack his bags for him. Call me crazy, but he could be in line for a breakout year next year. Kudos to KW on the change of scenery deal.
Yeah, Cashman is an absolute dolt, trying to put together a fantasy baseball roster on X-Box. Too bad chemistry gets in the way, jackass! This just goes to show you...it doesn't matter how much money you have as a team, it's how smart your upper management spends that money.