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NDSox12
06-24-2005, 12:20 AM
Alright, this is a little off-topic for this board, but I wasn't sure where else to put it. The following situation took place in my slow-pitch softball game. I'm curious what the correct ruling on the play should have been. I tried to find it in the MLB rulebook, but gave up after a while.

Runners on first and third with one out. The batter hits a fly ball to right field. The right fielder makes the catch. The runner on third tags and scores. However, the runner on first forgot to tag up and was forced out at first after the runner scored. Obviously this ends the inning. The question is, does the run count?

Rocklive99
06-24-2005, 12:23 AM
I'm preaty sure it does, not 100%, but in the 90s

batmanZoSo
06-24-2005, 12:30 AM
Alright, this is a little off-topic for this board, but I wasn't sure where else to put it. The following situation took place in my slow-pitch softball game. I'm curious what the correct ruling on the play should have been. I tried to find it in the MLB rulebook, but gave up after a while.

Runners on first and third with one out. The batter hits a fly ball to right field. The right fielder makes the catch. The runner on third tags and scores. However, the runner on first forgot to tag up and was forced out at first after the runner scored. Obviously this ends the inning. The question is, does the run count?

Do you mean the runner on first forgot to tag up and was doubled up at first?

If that's the case, the run counts because the out was not made by the batter at first base and the runner going home made it there before the 3rd out was made.

Just like if Crede hit's a gapper, scoring AJ from first, then foolishly tries to stretch it into a triple, he's out and the inning's over, but the run counts.

Ol' No. 2
06-24-2005, 12:34 AM
Do you mean the runner on first forgot to tag up and was doubled up at first?

If that's the case, the run counts because the out was not made by the batter at first base and the runner going home made it there before the 3rd out was made.

Just like if Crede hit's a gapper, scoring AJ from first, then foolishly tries to stretch it into a triple, he's out and the inning's over, but the run counts.Yup. If the runner crosses home before the out is made it counts. The only exception I know if is a force play.

NDSox12
06-24-2005, 12:34 AM
Do you mean the runner on first forgot to tag up and was doubled up at first?

If that's the case, the run counts because the out was not made by the batter at first base and the runner going home made it there before the 3rd out was made.

Just like if Crede hit's a gapper, scoring AJ from first, then foolishly tries to stretch it into a triple, he's out and the inning's over, but the run counts.

Yes, the runner on first was doubled up at first. If the two of you are right (which I don't doubt), then the umpire got the call correct. For some reason, I was under the impression that the run would not count since it was a force out at first for not tagging up. A similar situation, in my opinion, would be if the batter had hit a grounder to short and a force out was recorded at second (for the third out) after the runner on third crossed the plate. That run wouldn't count, would it?

I am probably completely wrong though. I guess that's why I'm not an umpire :)

scottjanssens
06-24-2005, 12:37 AM
Yes, the runner on first was doubled up at first. If the two of you are right (which I don't doubt), then the umpire got the call correct. For some reason, I was under the impression that the run would not count since it was a force out at first for not tagging up. A similar situation, in my opinion, would be if the batter had hit a grounder to short and a force out was recorded at second (for the third out) after the runner on third crossed the plate. That run wouldn't count, would it?

I am probably completely wrong though. I guess that's why I'm not an umpire :)

It's not a force out. It's being doubled up. They're competely different. A force out is when a runner if forced to advance a base and a defender with the ball tags the base first.

Ol' No. 2
06-24-2005, 12:38 AM
Yes, the runner on first was doubled up at first. If the two of you are right (which I don't doubt), then the umpire got the call correct. For some reason, I was under the impression that the run would not count since it was a force out at first for not tagging up. A similar situation, in my opinion, would be if the batter had hit a grounder to short and a force out was recorded at second (for the third out) after the runner on third crossed the plate. That run wouldn't count, would it?

I am probably completely wrong though. I guess that's why I'm not an umpire :)If it's a force out, the run doesn't count. Getting doubled off base on a fly ball is not a force out because he's not being "forced" to advance.

NDSox12
06-24-2005, 12:42 AM
If it's a force out, the run doesn't count. Getting doubled off base on a fly ball is not a force out because he's not being "forced" to advance.

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Thanks for the responses. Good thing I didn't make a fool out of myself arguing the call :)

Hokiesox
06-24-2005, 01:06 AM
Here's the language direct from the rulebook:

Rule 2.00-Definitions

FORCE PLAY: approved ruiling: not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire's judgement, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts.


2000 rulebook, page 17

TDog
06-24-2005, 01:07 AM
It's a timing play. It seems like it should be like a forceout that would negate the run, but it's not.

The funny thing is, even a lot of pros aren't clear on this rule. And even more confusing is what happens if the runner on third didn't tag up after the catch AND cross the plate before the appeal play at first. That run is supposed to count unless there is an appeal made to third for what the rule book calls the "fourth out."

When I was a kid, I read in a newspaper story that it took Gene Mauch three innings to get a run posted one day for his team, the Expos, I think at that point, because the umpires had trouble interpreting the rule.

elrod
06-24-2005, 01:22 AM
Run counts. This exact play happened in a Mets-Yankees game in 1998 when the Mets' go-ahead run scored just before the runner on first was doubled off.