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gosox83
06-22-2005, 09:24 PM
Who remembers two years ago at Sox Fest when Kenny Williams was fielding questions and the crowd was downright hostile??

I even remember the Hyatt Regency worker saying it is time to clear the room, and Kenny telling her "No I want to take some more questions, give us 10 more minutes"

There was even a guy who said something along the lines of ......."Mr. Williams lets say I owned a steakhouse and you dined there and I made you pay top price, but gave you the toughest steak, and then I said, but sir it is half - price on Mondays, would that make you feel any better?"

Kenny's response was awesome.......

He said, "Well sir, given your animosity first off, I would be very leary about eating at your steakhouse."

All Kenny kept saying that seminar was how hard he was trying to put a winner on the field and how he loses sleep when they don't win.

Lets give KW CREDIT!!!

LOOK AT THE TEAM HE HAS ASSEMBLED!!!

CAN YOU PICTURE HIM HAVING CHAMPAGNE DUMPED ON HIM BY HURT AND OZ IN LATE OCTOBER?????!!!!

Gives me chills...

GO SOX!!!!

RallyBowl
06-22-2005, 09:26 PM
KW-you sir, are the man!

White Sox Josh
06-22-2005, 09:28 PM
:worship::worship::KW

RedHeadPaleHoser
06-22-2005, 09:35 PM
The man stands by his words. He showed emotion that year, he showed optimism this year, but the best words so far he has spoken (and shown us) -

Magglio - there's the door.

We Don't Care.

Ol' No. 2
06-22-2005, 09:35 PM
Who remembers two years ago at Sox Fest when Kenny Williams was fielding questions and the crowd was downright hostile??

I even remember the Hyatt Regency worker saying it is time to clear the room, and Kenny telling her "No I want to take some more questions, give us 10 more minutes"

There was even a guy who said something along the lines of ......."Mr. Williams lets say I owned a steakhouse and you dined there and I made you pay top price, but gave you the toughest steak, and then I said, but sir it is half - price on Mondays, would that make you feel any better?"

Kenny's response was awesome.......

He said, "Well sir, given your animosity first off, I would be very leary about eating at your steakhouse."

All Kenny kept saying that seminar was how hard he was trying to put a winner on the field and how he loses sleep when they don't win.

Lets give KW CREDIT!!!

LOOK AT THE TEAM HE HAS ASSEMBLED!!!

CAN YOU PICTURE HIM HAVING CHAMPAGNE DUMPED ON HIM BY HURT AND OZ IN LATE OCTOBER?????!!!!

Gives me chills...

GO SOX!!!!Kenny deserved the lambasting he got two years ago. The team that we've suffered the last few years didn't get there by accident. That's the team Kenny put together. He's the one who tried to put together a bullpen full of castoffs and spare parts. He's the reason the Sox had four starters and a pitching machine. He's the one who put together the all-or-nothing offense.

Give credit where it's due. Kenny put together a hell of a team this year. But personally, I give a lot of the credit for this year's team to Ozzie. This is the team Ozzie wanted. Fortunately, Kenny had the sense to listen.

SoxFanSince67
06-22-2005, 09:40 PM
At least he has made some moves the past several years. Some of which have worked out and others have been down right failures. I can't fault the man for making the effort to put forth a winning team which he has attempted to do year in and year out. The safe thing would have been to remain status quo, a route he has not taken.

Daver
06-22-2005, 09:44 PM
Kenny deserved the lambasting he got two years ago. The team that we've suffered the last few years didn't get there by accident. That's the team Kenny put together. He's the one who tried to put together a bullpen full of castoffs and spare parts. He's the reason the Sox had four starters and a pitching machine. He's the one who put together the all-or-nothing offense.

Give credit where it's due. Kenny put together a hell of a team this year. But personally, I give a lot of the credit for this year's team to Ozzie. This is the team Ozzie wanted. Fortunately, Kenny had the sense to listen.

Gimme a break.

Ozzie has trouble managing a bullpen, he has no clue on how to manage player signings. Kenny Williams talked about building a team based on smart ballplayers when Jerry Manuel was still napping in the dugout.

Ol' No. 2
06-22-2005, 09:51 PM
Gimme a break.

Ozzie has trouble managing a bullpen, he has no clue on how to manage player signings. Kenny Williams talked about building a team based on smart ballplayers when Jerry Manuel was still napping in the dugout.Talk is cheap. What he did was get Todd Ritchie, Rick White and Mike Jackson. Not to mention Brian Daubach, Armando Rios, D'Angelo Jimenez and more I don't care to remember. Ozzie may not know HOW to sign them. But Kenny clearly didn't know WHO to sign.

DickAllen72
06-22-2005, 09:56 PM
Kenny deserved the lambasting he got two years ago. The team that we've suffered the last few years didn't get there by accident. That's the team Kenny put together. He's the one who tried to put together a bullpen full of castoffs and spare parts. He's the reason the Sox had four starters and a pitching machine. He's the one who put together the all-or-nothing offense.
I blame Scheuler more than KW for that.

KW had to start with the hand Scheuler and JR dealt him.

Ol' No. 2
06-22-2005, 10:03 PM
I blame Scheuler more than KW for that.

KW had to start with the hand Scheuler and JR dealt him.Agreed up to a point. But he had several years to build the team he wanted. And he did. And it lost. I'll give credit where it's due. He learned from his mistakes. But I do get a bit irked listening to him talking about the Sox teams of the last 5 years as if they were someone else's.

And if you recall, when they were looking for a new manager, he was the one who wanted Cito Gaston (try to imagine where they would be now). It was JR who insisted they interview Ozzie Guillen. To Kenny's credit, he immediately recognized that Ozzie was the guy he wanted. But I give Ozzie half the credit for the makeup of this team.

34 Inch Stick
06-23-2005, 08:31 AM
As I said before the season started, I give KW all the credit or blame for the results this season. This team is his "ideal", his vision of what a team should be. He took steps to completely restructure the team to match his ideal. It is judgement day and KW is passing (I do not absolve him of sins of the past, but I also put blame on JR for using baseball's 3rd biggest market as the training ground for baseball executives).

I, like Daver, still do not hold Ozzie in very high esteem. I do give him credit for empowering this team to run (and not just Pods, Iguichi and Rowand). However, I have not seen many moves in either the on field or off field aspect of managing that make me think that Ozzie is anything great.

As far as it being Ozzie's team, I do not believe for a second that Ozzie dictates to KW. KW dictates to Ozzie and they both are dictated to by JR. That is what happens when a person owes his existence to a patron.

Cubbiesuck13
06-23-2005, 08:50 AM
Those who bash The Oz:

Give me three of your best field managers. I want to know what you expect a great manager to do. In his second year, The Oz has led his team to the best record in baseball and the best start by a SOX team ever (or perhaps since 1915). The reserves he uses have come through more times than I can count. We have had a chance to win 90% of the games so far! His bullpen mismanagement was something that I was leery of but he has proven me wrong. I haven't been able to follow as many games as I would like but the ones I have, I noticed that the moves he made have a reason behind them. His bullpen management is a cross between by-the book thinking, individual-statistic decision making, and his famous 'go with the gut' thinking. He hasn't done many negative things to this team and has given them a chance not only to win the game that day but the games ahead as well. I am glad KW gave The Oz a chance. I know KW is too. These guys are great together.

You would think you guys would recognize a good manager after JM.

ode to veeck
06-23-2005, 08:57 AM
I gotta give a lot of credit to both of them. KW, who has matured and recovered from a series of young GM blunders (Royce, Koch, Ritchie, "who did I trade for?!", etc) but also Ozzie, who was more interested in a team that knew how to play defense and run the bases (remmber Josh Paul?) rather then just a fast ball / power hitting lineup.

It's amazing how they closed several critical holes in the last 12 months in the pen, a starter or two, a legitimate lead off, a catcher who can actually get a runner at 2nd, a much tighter IF defensively, etc. I think with KW/OG working together since Ozzie joined, the Sox have had a vision of what they wanted in a team and then went out and put it together.

Sure, Ozzie's green with some of the managerial duties as Daver points out, but he'll learn with time. Older Sox fans might remember how bone headed La Russa was when he started out as a young manager, often really mishandling his young talented pitching staff the 1st couple of years, but then he matured into one of the better managers in baseball.

Sure the pressure relief of the 5th spot helped Garland immensely to get past his mental hurdles, but Ozzie also nurtured him from last year, often leaving him in to learn how to get through his typical 5th inning funks.

Ol' No. 2
06-23-2005, 09:06 AM
I gotta give a lot of credit to both of them. KW, who has matured and recovered from a series of young GM blunders (Royce, Koch, Ritchie, "who did I trade for?!", etc) but also Ozzie, who was more interested in a team that knew how to play defense and run the bases (remmber Josh Paul?) rather then just a fast ball / power hitting lineup.

It's amazing how they closed several critical holes in the last 12 months in the pen, a starter or two, a legitimate lead off, a catcher who can actually get a runner at 2nd, a much tighter IF defensively, etc. I think with KW/OG working together since Ozzie joined, the Sox have had a vision of what they wanted in a team and then went out and put it together.

Sure, Ozzie's green with some of the managerial duties as Daver points out, but he'll learn with time. Older Sox fans might remember how bone headed La Russa was when he started out as a young manager, often really mishandling his young talented pitching staff the 1st couple of years, but then he matured into one of the better managers in baseball.

Sure the pressure relief of the 5th spot helped Garland immensely to get past his mental hurdles, but Ozzie also nurtured him from last year, often leaving him in to learn how to get through his typical 5th inning funks.Well said. By whatever amount you think KW should get credit for this year's success, by the same token, he has to carry the same amount of blame for previous failures. I can't believe it's just coincidence that KW just happened to move to a different philosophy just when Ozzie got here. Not that Ozzie "dictated" who he wanted, but working together, they came up with a plan that's working.

wdelaney72
06-23-2005, 09:07 AM
This poses a very interesting question: Which is more important in a manager, one who is a better baseball tactician, or one who has the will to win and the ability to instill that confindence in his players.

Daver and ON2 have valid arguments. I think the truth is lying somewhere in the middle. Yes, Kenny did inherit Schueler's mess, but he added gasoline to that fire. Ozzie, while not the best game strategist out there, has talked about having this kind of team since he got her, it didn't take long to get it after he got here, and he's winning with what he's been given.

KW does deserve credit for this team, but so does Ozzie. Kenny just required a little on the job training. I think most will agree, Ozzie has, too.

edit: Sorry OTV, I wrote this before seeing your post. I think we're on the same page.

Cubbiesuck13
06-23-2005, 09:11 AM
This may be a little off topic but could you imagine The Oz as a basketball coach? He would get fired in less than a day because he demands respect and there are not many teams in the NBA that give respect. The players dictate who their coach is. I would imagine Baker would last for ever. It's never anyones fault when it comes to him!

MIgrenade
06-23-2005, 09:24 AM
KW was given a team that had made the playoffs based on a ton of hitting and pitching that was good enough to get by as long as the hitting was there. KW tried to continue winning that way because he saw a great hitters park and already had Thomas, Lee, Mags, Jose, Konerko and others. He had jsut seen that a team like that could make the playoffs and all he did was try to continue it. Add to that a bad manager and he would have known that the team had to hit because Manuel would pull a starter in the 7th no matter what. They tried to have a decent bullpen rather than starters.
KW only tried to make this work for 2 seasons before Oz has changed everything. KW is a good GM especially based on the payroll he can use. Ozzie is a little green when it comes to pitchers but knows how to use his offense and taught the fundamentals.
I think both have done a very nice job. I can't name too many guys I miss that KW traded. Only Carlos Lee could fit that bill but Pods is great.
The team is great so who really cares?

maurice
06-23-2005, 11:26 AM
Talk is cheap. What he did was get Todd Ritchie, Rick White and Mike Jackson. Not to mention Brian Daubach, Armando Rios, D'Angelo Jimenez and more I don't care to remember. Ozzie may not know HOW to sign them. But Kenny clearly didn't know WHO to sign.

This is silly. First off, Schu admitted that he arranged the Ritchie trade. Second, literally every other guy on your list was acquired because he was dirt cheap. (LMAO at the thought of KW laying awake at night thinking, "If I could only get Rick White and Armando Rios we'd be WS bound!") Given an adequate payroll, he gladly would have gotten much better players.

The difference this year is that KW was able to clear cap room (by dumping Ordinez, Lee, and Valentin) and received a payroll increase, allowing him to add quality veterans who command multi-million dollar deals. He even got the Yankees to pay part of Contrares' contract . . . in return for Loaiza!

The current record supports the annual gripe that a relatively small payroll increase (to sign another starter, for example) would have put the Sox over the hump in years past.

fquaye149
06-23-2005, 11:35 AM
The current record supports the annual gripe that a relatively small payroll increase (to sign another starter, for example) would have put the Sox over the hump in years past.

wait a minute. I was with you up until here. Do you really think we were 5 million dollars away from Frank and Maggs not getting injured last year?

Or Manuel not sleeping through 2003?

I will give you this: for whatever reason, JR didn't want to fire Manuel until after 2003...that might have been financially motivated, but more likely it was

a.) because of the all-star game
b.) because of the 2nd half surge
c.) because of JR's loyalty to his employees.

At any rate, if they HAD fired Manuel, we wouldn't have gotten Ozzie, and for better or for worse, Ozzie is the manager of the best team in baseball.

IDK how important Ozzie is, but my gut says he's more important than not.

maurice
06-23-2005, 11:50 AM
I thought we were talking about Ozzie's influence on the GM's moves, not Ozzie's influence in the dugout.

IMHO, $$$ influenced KW's moves much more that the identity of the manager. In 2003, the Sox lost the division by 4 games. Don't you think a couple of additional quality vets (especially a SP) could have gotten the team over the hump?

Last year, the gap was wider. KW added Garcia for the stretch drive and tried desperately to acquire bats to compensate for the injuries to Ordonez and Thomas. It was all too little, too late. It would have been much easier to compensate if the team already had a deeper rotation, a deeper bullpen, an adequate catcher, a full year of Garcia (who was available on the cheap in the offseason), and/or an adequate backup OF (instead of Perez and Borchard).

This year, KW had the payroll to make these moves before the season started. The added depth has allowed the team to play well, even though it is still without Ordonez's historical production and has been missing Thomas much of the season.

ode to veeck
06-30-2005, 12:28 AM
KW tried to continue winning that way because he saw a great hitters park and already had Thomas, Lee, Mags, Jose, Konerko and others.

uh, that's why he gave us Royce and Ramirez in '01, '02, to beef up that winning run scoring formula? sorry couldn't help it

still, kudos to ozzie and KW for the 2005 Sox

Fake Chet Lemon
06-30-2005, 08:06 AM
This years Soxfest was an absolute lovefest though. So as a group Sox fans are pretty darn smart. The years at Soxfest that Kenny got ripped his teams didn't do squat. I still need him to explain how he thought Jerry Manual was one of the 30 or so greatest baseball minds on the planet, I need that answer and all will be right in my world and I can finally let it go. But I have always thought highly of Kenny's players moves, even when they didn't work out. I love his aggressiveness, it's mandatory when your payroll is middle of the road.

ode to veeck
06-30-2005, 08:42 AM
I can live with Jerry being a decent baseball mind, just not our manager.