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SpringfldFan
06-22-2005, 12:59 PM
Neal has been lights out lately and looks to have solved most of his wildness troubles. Right now he is an indispensible part of the bullpen. However, I have to ask - has his success turned him into a career reliever or does management still see starting as his eventual destiny? Given the 5th starter situation, if there were another good lefty long reliever available, would you consider making him the #5 starter again?

And along that line of thought, if Cotts has sealed his fate as a permanent reliever, what happens if Bmac goes to the pen this year and excels in the role?

SFF

Ol' No. 2
06-22-2005, 01:01 PM
Neal has been lights out lately and looks to have solved most of his wildness troubles. Right now he is an indispensible part of the bullpen. However, I have to ask - has his success turned him into a career reliever or does management still see starting as his eventual destiny? Given the 5th starter situation, if there were another good lefty long reliever available, would you consider making him the #5 starter again?

And along that line of thought, if Cotts has sealed his fate as a permanent reliever, what happens if Bmac goes to the pen this year and excels in the role?

SFFIt would be awfully difficult for Cotts to start this year. It would take at least 3-4 weeks of starting in AAA to get his arm stretched out, and they can't do without him in the bullpen that long. Next year...who knows? With all the starting rotation signed through next year it doesn't look like a spot is available.

maurice
06-22-2005, 01:02 PM
would you consider making him the #5 starter again?

Not this year. Maybe next year.

Tragg
06-22-2005, 01:22 PM
Doesn't sound like any of the young guys are ready.

Shingo start any games in Japan? batters would probably catch on after once or twice through the order.

Vizcaino hasn't started a game in like 300 ML appearances.

The rest of the pen is too valuable there to move.

nebraskasox
06-22-2005, 01:24 PM
It would be awfully difficult for Cotts to start this year. It would take at least 3-4 weeks of starting in AAA to get his arm stretched out, and they can't do without him in the bullpen that long. Next year...who knows? With all the starting rotation signed through next year it doesn't look like a spot is available.

No 2 - can you (or someone) explain the physical difference between a reliever's and a starter's biomechanics? You mention stretching the arm out. Is the idea that muscle endurance (a starter) requires a longer, stretched muscle (like a marathoner) vs. the shorter, quicker bursts from a reliever (like a sprinter)?

My wife asked about this the other day and all I could say was that the conditioning was different but couldn't explain why. She said that you'd think pitching was pitching and it wouldn't matter.

Thanks.

scottjanssens
06-22-2005, 01:24 PM
I really like having him in the bullpen where he can eat up innings and keep us in any close game. I think he's more valuable to the team as a reliever. A lot of folks here agree that the Sox highest priority (but not very high) should be to strengthen the bullpen. Just about every team could use a bit of bullpen strengthening. Why weaken ours?

Randar68
06-22-2005, 01:46 PM
No 2 - can you (or someone) explain the physical difference between a reliever's and a starter's biomechanics? You mention stretching the arm out. Is the idea that muscle endurance (a starter) requires a longer, stretched muscle (like a marathoner) vs. the shorter, quicker bursts from a reliever (like a sprinter)?

My wife asked about this the other day and all I could say was that the conditioning was different but couldn't explain why. She said that you'd think pitching was pitching and it wouldn't matter.

Thanks.

Muscle-memory and endurance is the short of it. "Stretch" refers to the length of said outing, not necessarily any difference in muscle fiber structure. It's a very different routine as a starter versus a reliever.

Iguana775
06-22-2005, 01:57 PM
Neal has been lights out lately and looks to have solved most of his wildness troubles. Right now he is an indispensible part of the bullpen. However, I have to ask - has his success turned him into a career reliever or does management still see starting as his eventual destiny? Given the 5th starter situation, if there were another good lefty long reliever available, would you consider making him the #5 starter again?

And along that line of thought, if Cotts has sealed his fate as a permanent reliever, what happens if Bmac goes to the pen this year and excels in the role?

SFF

As with Burly, I look for Cotts to be in the rotation in place of Orlando next year.

RallyBowl
06-22-2005, 02:07 PM
I'm not sure that with only 3 pitches, two of which are fastballs, that he has what it takes to start. I could be wrong. I think if he added one more off-speed pitch, maybe. But I'll take him out of the pen any day of the week.

DaleJRFan
06-22-2005, 04:28 PM
No 2 - can you (or someone) explain the physical difference between a reliever's and a starter's biomechanics? You mention stretching the arm out. Is the idea that muscle endurance (a starter) requires a longer, stretched muscle (like a marathoner) vs. the shorter, quicker bursts from a reliever (like a sprinter)?

My wife asked about this the other day and all I could say was that the conditioning was different but couldn't explain why. She said that you'd think pitching was pitching and it wouldn't matter.

Thanks.

I'm guessing it is similar to a distance runner versus a sprinter. Cotts can throw heat for a few innings because his body and arm are conditioned to do so. He would need to steadily work towards being able to throw for a longer period of time...

chisoxfanatic
06-22-2005, 05:26 PM
I'm not sure that with only 3 pitches, two of which are fastballs, that he has what it takes to start. I could be wrong. I think if he added one more off-speed pitch, maybe. But I'll take him out of the pen any day of the week.

He really only has effectively thrown 2 pitches consistently this season. That's not enough to become a starter. He's shown he can more than get the job done in the bullpen, so why mess with something that's been good?

In 3 or 4 years, maybe, he can be a starter; and that's AFTER he gets more experience, as well as is able to work out 2-3 more pitches, especially the offspeed changeup. Maybe then he can turn in to the same story that Buehrle and Garland have since coming out of the bullpen themselves.

TaylorStSox
06-22-2005, 05:32 PM
He really only has effectively thrown 2 pitches consistently this season. That's not enough to become a starter. He's shown he can more than get the job done in the bullpen, so why mess with something that's been good?

In 3 or 4 years, maybe, he can be a starter; and that's AFTER he gets more experience, as well as is able to work out 2-3 more pitches, especially the offspeed changeup. Maybe then he can turn in to the same story that Buehrle and Garland have since coming out of the bullpen themselves.

He'd be throwing alot more change up if he had to. Right now, he just doesn't need 3 pitches to succeed.

Guys like Gagne have 4 pitches but only feature 2 95% of the time. That's because they don't need to.

Cotts will be a starter in this league. There's no doubt in my mind. There's always room for a big LH'er with a 93 MPH heater, a solid curve and a decent change.

Mohoney
06-22-2005, 05:34 PM
No 2 - can you (or someone) explain the physical difference between a reliever's and a starter's biomechanics? You mention stretching the arm out. Is the idea that muscle endurance (a starter) requires a longer, stretched muscle (like a marathoner) vs. the shorter, quicker bursts from a reliever (like a sprinter)?

My wife asked about this the other day and all I could say was that the conditioning was different but couldn't explain why. She said that you'd think pitching was pitching and it wouldn't matter.

Thanks.

Basically, it's pretty much what Randar said. If you're talking about fast-twitch vs. slow-twitch muscle fiber, it shouldn't be all that different between starters and relievers.

"Stretched out", or "extended", basically refers to a pitcher being groomed into a situation where his arm can handle the repetitive motion of pitching for a longer period in a given outing without becoming "gassed" (losing velocity, hanging the ball, etc.).

maurice
06-22-2005, 05:35 PM
I've been very impressed with his curve lately. It seems much improved over previous years. There's no reason he can't improve his change as well. His FB has always been unhittable when he throws it for strikes early in the count.

jeremydavid
06-22-2005, 07:39 PM
Cotts is 25
Garland is 25
Buerhle is 26
Garcia is 29

If Cotts proves his skills as a dominant starter we could have the makings of a pitching dynasty which would of course led to many playoff trips. Add McCarthy in the mix in the two or three years and our future looks bright as hell. This season is great but if we lose in the playoffs and lose the Twins or Indians next year I would be so disappointed. Here's a :gulp: to a Chicago White Sox dynasty.

Ol' No. 2
06-22-2005, 08:01 PM
Basically, it's pretty much what Randar said. If you're talking about fast-twitch vs. slow-twitch muscle fiber, it shouldn't be all that different between starters and relievers.

"Stretched out", or "extended", basically refers to a pitcher being groomed into a situation where his arm can handle the repetitive motion of pitching for a longer period in a given outing without becoming "gassed" (losing velocity, hanging the ball, etc.).To add to what others have said, a reliever has to pitch for 1-2 innings, but does so more often. A starter pitches a lot longer, but less frequently. There's a difference in endurance required, but there's also a difference in the mental and physical preparation involved in between. Starters endure more muscle damage in their longer outings, and go through a regular progression of physical training in between starts to help heal the damage and prevent tightening. These vary from team to team and player to player, but almost always include "side sessions" (i.e. throwing perhaps 50-60 pitches at less than full speed) and other exercises to stimulate blood flow and muscle repair. Relievers, since they don't have long layoffs in between, have entirely different training regimens.

Daver
06-22-2005, 08:05 PM
I'm not sure that with only 3 pitches, two of which are fastballs, that he has what it takes to start. I could be wrong. I think if he added one more off-speed pitch, maybe. But I'll take him out of the pen any day of the week.

Randy Johnson throws three pitches, come to think of it he has had a small amount of success as a starter.

TaylorStSox
06-22-2005, 08:08 PM
Cotts is 25
Garland is 25
Buerhle is 26
Garcia is 29

If Cotts proves his skills as a dominant starter we could have the makings of a pitching dynasty which would of course led to many playoff trips. Add McCarthy in the mix in the two or three years and our future looks bright as hell. This season is great but if we lose in the playoffs and lose the Twins or Indians next year I would be so disappointed. Here's a :gulp: to a Chicago White Sox dynasty.

If you're talking about a future 1-5 completely ideally. I'll go with...

Buerhle
Garland
Gonzalez
McCarthy
Cotts

That would be a beautiful thing. L,R,L,R,L

Daver
06-22-2005, 08:10 PM
To add to what others have said, a reliever has to pitch for 1-2 innings, but does so more often. A starter pitches a lot longer, but less frequently. There's a difference in endurance required, but there's also a difference in the mental and physical preparation involved in between. Starters endure more muscle damage in their longer outings, and go through a regular progression of physical training in between starts to help heal the damage and prevent tightening. These vary from team to team and player to player, but almost always include "side sessions" (i.e. throwing perhaps 50-60 pitches at less than full speed) and other exercises to stimulate blood flow and muscle repair. Relievers, since they don't have long layoffs in between, have entirely different training regimens.

A lot of these problems would be solved for both starters and relivers by throwing more in practice. Not pitching off the mound, just throwing, everyday, starting with catch and ten feet and increasing it gradually to long toss at 80', but I won't go into that rant right now.

Ol' No. 2
06-22-2005, 08:34 PM
A lot of these problems would be solved for both starters and relivers by throwing more in practice. Not pitching off the mound, just throwing, everyday, starting with catch and ten feet and increasing it gradually to long toss at 80', but I won't go into that rant right now.Maybe I'm giving too much credit, but I'd think by now this subject has been pretty well studied by sports physiologists and they've come up with a nearly optimum training regimen. Of course, that's not to say that all players follow that regimen...

Daver
06-22-2005, 08:55 PM
Maybe I'm giving too much credit, but I'd think by now this subject has been pretty well studied by sports physiologists and they've come up with a nearly optimum training regimen. Of course, that's not to say that all players follow that regimen...

Not to give the doctors their due, I'll stick with the opinions of the guys that have actually pitched a baseball, one of the cruellest things you can do to your shoulder. Tommy John, Jim Hunter, Vida Blue, and quite a few others have been outspoken on the fact that pitchers today do not throw enough.

nebraskasox
06-22-2005, 11:26 PM
No 2 - can you (or someone) explain the physical difference between a reliever's and a starter's biomechanics? You mention stretching the arm out. Is the idea that muscle endurance (a starter) requires a longer, stretched muscle (like a marathoner) vs. the shorter, quicker bursts from a reliever (like a sprinter)?

My wife asked about this the other day and all I could say was that the conditioning was different but couldn't explain why. She said that you'd think pitching was pitching and it wouldn't matter.

Thanks.

Thanks to all for the explanations on this.

wsbaseball9
06-23-2005, 09:18 AM
i was thinking the same thing the other night when he pitched two innings 1 hit and looked like a real starter