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View Full Version : BMac or Garland vs Cubs?


hawkjt
06-21-2005, 12:25 PM
This is reminscent of the dilemma that Manuel faced with the Burls or Cotts vs Yankees two years ago. Do you move up Garland to face the cubs on sunday or stick with the youngster like Jerry did with Cotts two years ago. The sox lost both games with cotts and burls losing and Manuel got roasted.

I think ozzie will keep it open and see how we sit after Sat. If we are up 2-0 then I think he will go with BMac. If we are down 0-2 or 1-1 then Garland.

I was OK with Manuels decision then and would endorse going with BMac on Sunday if we are up in the series. Otherwise I would cave to my own emotions and push Jonny up and try to take this season series from the cubs.

Ozz certainly has bought himself much more latitude with the fans than Manuel had at that point. Being Manager of the year and winning a division title only lasts bout 1 year then the critics come out. Oz is lucky he has the best team in baseball when he makes this decision cuz if it does not work the critics will have the knives out whichever way he goes.

maurice
06-21-2005, 12:27 PM
This is reminscent of the dilemma that Manuel faced with the Burls or Cotts vs Yankees two years ago.

I don't see how a home game against the 2005 cubs is analogous to a road game against the 2003 spankees.

This "issue" is totally overblown.

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2005, 12:27 PM
This is reminscent of the dilemma that Manuel faced with the Burls or Cotts vs Yankees two years ago. Do you move up Garland to face the cubs on sunday or stick with the youngster like Jerry did with Cotts two years ago. The sox lost both games with cotts and burls losing and Manuel got roasted.

I think ozzie will keep it open and see how we sit after Sat. If we are up 2-0 then I think he will go with BMac. If we are down 0-2 or 1-1 then Garland.

I was OK with Manuels decision then and would endorse going with BMac on Sunday if we are up in the series. Otherwise I would cave to my own emotions and push Jonny up and try to take this season series from the cubs.

Ozz certainly has bought himself much more latitude with the fans than Manuel had at that point. Being Manager of the year and winning a division title only lasts bout 1 year then the critics come out. Oz is lucky he has the best team in baseball when he makes this decision cuz if it does not work the critics will have the knives out whichever way he goes.I'd go with McCarthy. They're going to need him again before the season is over, probably more than once, and it's important for him to continue to develop. That outweighs one game against the Cubs.

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 12:28 PM
BMac. Cubs are just another team. And the decision will be made before Saturday so if it is JG, he can keep his normal routine and throwing days.

LuvSox
06-21-2005, 12:30 PM
I'd go with McCarthy. They're going to need him again before the season is over, probably more than once, and it's important for him to continue to develop. That outweighs one game against the Cubs.

I have to agree with ya. Although, I am going to the game on Sunday and would rather see Garland pitch.

fquaye149
06-21-2005, 12:30 PM
This is reminscent of the dilemma that Manuel faced with the Burls or Cotts vs Yankees two years ago. Do you move up Garland to face the cubs on sunday or stick with the youngster like Jerry did with Cotts two years ago. The sox lost both games with cotts and burls losing and Manuel got roasted.

I think ozzie will keep it open and see how we sit after Sat. If we are up 2-0 then I think he will go with BMac. If we are down 0-2 or 1-1 then Garland.

I was OK with Manuels decision then and would endorse going with BMac on Sunday if we are up in the series. Otherwise I would cave to my own emotions and push Jonny up and try to take this season series from the cubs.

Ozz certainly has bought himself much more latitude with the fans than Manuel had at that point. Being Manager of the year and winning a division title only lasts bout 1 year then the critics come out. Oz is lucky he has the best team in baseball when he makes this decision cuz if it does not work the critics will have the knives out whichever way he goes.

You have it backasswards. Manuel pushed Cotts UP a start to have him pitch AT Yankee stadium instead of letting Buehrle take his scheduled start. Sheer idiocy.

scottjanssens
06-21-2005, 12:34 PM
I'd prefer BMac, but I wouldn't be terribly put out if it was Garland. I too am going to Sunday's game and would like to see BMac's first win. Aw heck, dream big, I'd like to see BMac's first shutout.

I had tickets to all three but events have conspired against me so that I'm only able to attend one. Dang events, always conspiring against me.

Cowhead418
06-21-2005, 12:39 PM
You have it backasswards. Manuel pushed Cotts UP a start to have him pitch AT Yankee stadium instead of letting Buehrle take his scheduled start. Sheer idiocy.
:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

fquaye149
06-21-2005, 12:52 PM
:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

surely you've heard that before

Sxy Mofo
06-21-2005, 12:56 PM
You have it backasswards.

Great word. Irony in and of itself.

Gotta keep the rotation like it is. I know the cubs series is more important to fans than the tigers series, but in the grand scheme of things in terms of division races it's more important to win a game against the tigers than the cubs.

That said, a whole 7 days of rest for both MB and JG might not be a good thing either. Pushing each up a day MB would get an extra day of rest while JG would be on the normal rest

That said, I'm not a pitcher and I don't know whether they'd rather have two days extra between starts or if they'd rather pitch every five days or at the most every six.

Rocky Soprano
06-21-2005, 12:59 PM
I rather see Garland go, just because I like the idea of splitting up Contreras and El Duque. Plus BMac might feel a bit more comfortable going in the 5th spot.

But who cares who pitches against the Cubs. Send Coop out there! We got bigger fish to fry.

MisterB
06-21-2005, 01:22 PM
surely you've heard that before

Usually around my family it's bassackwards, but it still gets the point across. :redneck

Tom~Attitude
06-21-2005, 01:39 PM
SunTimes saying that Prior may pitch Sunday..so starting MCCarthy would be just ducky!

doublem23
06-21-2005, 01:50 PM
You have it backasswards. Manuel pushed Cotts UP a start to have him pitch AT Yankee stadium instead of letting Buehrle take his scheduled start. Sheer idiocy.

Bingo.

Read all about it. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?id=2316&category=4)

Chez
06-21-2005, 01:50 PM
C'mon. The Cubs are NOT just another team and these games aren't the equivalent of games with the Royals and Tigers. If it meant moving Garland up a day, then I'd be against it. But given that he would be pitching with his normal 4 days rest, it's got to be Garland against the Cubs and McCarthy against the Tigers. Besides, it's not like the Sox play the Twins after the Cubs. It's the Tigers -- a non-factor in the race.

doublem23
06-21-2005, 01:53 PM
C'mon. The Cubs are NOT just another team and these games aren't the equivalent of games with the Royals and Tigers. If it meant moving Garland up a day, then I'd be against it. But given that he would be pitching with his normal 4 days rest, it's got to be Garland against the Cubs and McCarthy against the Tigers. Besides, it's not like the Sox play the Twins after the Cubs. It's the Tigers -- a non-factor in the race.

How are the Tigers a non-factor, but the Cubs are? We're not even in the same league.

Mickster
06-21-2005, 01:56 PM
C'mon. The Cubs are NOT just another team and these games aren't the equivalent of games with the Royals and Tigers. If it meant moving Garland up a day, then I'd be against it. But given that he would be pitching with his normal 4 days rest, it's got to be Garland against the Cubs and McCarthy against the Tigers. Besides, it's not like the Sox play the Twins after the Cubs. It's the Tigers -- a non-factor in the race.

Completely disagree. All games in your division count as 2 games in the standings..........

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 01:56 PM
C'mon. The Cubs are NOT just another team and these games aren't the equivalent of games with the Royals and Tigers. If it meant moving Garland up a day, then I'd be against it. But given that he would be pitching with his normal 4 days rest, it's got to be Garland against the Cubs and McCarthy against the Tigers. Besides, it's not like the Sox play the Twins after the Cubs. It's the Tigers -- a non-factor in the race.

No way. The Cubs are just another team. Look at the big picture. And Detroit is .500 which means they are not a bad ball club. They are on par with the Cubs record wise and in our division. JG may go Sunday so that the Cubans are split up, but not because we are facing the Cub.

Until we get out of the mentalitiy that the Cubs are some special series, the media has every right to blast Sox fans for a Cubs obsession. Plain and simple.

Chez
06-21-2005, 02:03 PM
No way. The Cubs are just another team. Look at the big picture. And Detroit is .500 which means they are not a bad ball club. They are on par with the Cubs record wise and in our division. JG may go Sunday so that the Cubans are split up, but not because we are facing the Cub.

Until we get out of the mentalitiy that the Cubs are some special series, the media has every right to blast Sox fans for a Cubs obsession. Plain and simple.


The Tigers are not in the race plain and simple. They aren't the Twins. They aren't the Rangers or the Angels or the Red Sox (potential wild card rivals). And the Cubs series IS special and I'm obsessed and I have no problem admitting it. Why can't you?

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2005, 02:12 PM
Completely disagree. All games in your division count as 2 games in the standings..........So then how come the Sox didn't gain a full game against the Twins yesterday?:redneck

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 02:15 PM
The Tigers are not in the race plain and simple. They aren't the Twins. They aren't the Rangers or the Angels or the Red Sox (potential wild card rivals). And the Cubs series IS special and I'm obsessed and I have no problem admitting it. Why can't you?

Maybe b/c I am focused on winning our division and winning a World Series?

Listen, it's fun when the Cubs lose. But look at the big picture. We are having a very special season here and the Cubs series is but a minor, minor piece of the season. Again, this is why the media paints Sox fans as Cubs obsessed. We will never get away from the stereotype. Hell, look at all the user names around here that proclaim hatred for the Cubs instead of love for the Sox. Sigh.

JB98
06-21-2005, 02:23 PM
Regardless of what happens, the results of the first two games of the Cubs series should not be driving the decision of who will pitch Sunday. Ozzie needs to make that decision today or tomorrow, so that whoever pitches will have adequate time to prepare. JG and BMac can't be sitting around Saturday wondering which one of them is going to get the ball Sunday. That's a recipe for a sure loss.

If I'm making the decision, Garland pitches Sunday. If I'm making the decision, Buehrle, Garcia and Contreras would pitch in Detroit. I wouldn't use BMac until a fifth starter becomes necessary, and that would be in the Oakland series. However, I am not in charge, and I'm pretty sure Ozzie will throw McCarthy on Sunday. <shudder>

Chez
06-21-2005, 02:37 PM
Maybe b/c I am focused on winning our division and winning a World Series?

Listen, it's fun when the Cubs lose. But look at the big picture. We are having a very special season here and the Cubs series is but a minor, minor piece of the season. Again, this is why the media paints Sox fans as Cubs obsessed. We will never get away from the stereotype. Hell, look at all the user names around here that proclaim hatred for the Cubs instead of love for the Sox. Sigh.

I'm focused on that too. But given a choice between increasing the likelihood of beating the Cubs and increasing the likelihood of beating the Tigers (not the Twins) for ONE game, it seems to be a pretty easy call. It's not like we are jeopardizing our season by pitching Garland on 4 days rest.

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 02:39 PM
I'm focused on that too. But given a choice between increasing the likelihood of beating the Cubs and increasing the likelihood of beating the Tigers (not the Twins) for ONE game, it seems to be a pretty easy call. It's not like we are jeopardizing our season by pitching Garland on 4 days rest.

I think the point is that it shouldn't matter who the opponent is this weekend. If JG goes, it's b/c Ozzie wants to split up the Cubans, not b/c he wants a better chance of beating the Cubs. If we were playing the A's this weekend, would you want JG to go Sunday? Or do you just want him to go b/c it's the Cubs? The Cubs shouldn't even enter the discussion about possibly having JG go on Sunday.

maurice
06-21-2005, 02:47 PM
I think the point is that it shouldn't matter who the opponent is this weekend. . . .

Agreed. The prosepct of facing a broken-armed Prior at the Cell with no rehab starts does not disuade me. BMac already has faced a healthy Prior at the Urinal. At the time Ozzie removed him from he game, BMac was outpitching the Messiah.

SoxWillWin
06-21-2005, 02:53 PM
IMHO you have to stick with the rotation and let BMac throw it. A couple of reasons why.
1. He didn't pitch POORLY last time against the Flubs, Ozzie made the mistake in that game.
2. There is no need to give any validity to the Cubs offense by putting our top starter out there.
3. If we want to help groom BMac for a Future on this team he needs to feel the confidence from Ozzie. If he were to get pushed back or skipped entirely it might have negeative effects on his confidence.

At this point I could care less if the Flubs take 1 of 3 of these games, we are still 21 - 5 against the central and should continue to focus on just that.

Chez
06-21-2005, 02:54 PM
I think the point is that it shouldn't matter who the opponent is this weekend. If JG goes, it's b/c Ozzie wants to split up the Cubans, not b/c he wants a better chance of beating the Cubs. If we were playing the A's this weekend, would you want JG to go Sunday? Or do you just want him to go b/c it's the Cubs? The Cubs shouldn't even enter the discussion about possibly having JG go on Sunday.

Perhaps in a metaphysical sense it shouldn't matter who the opponent is on Sunday. But the reality of the situation is that it's the Cubs and those games simply matter more to me and I believe to most Sox fans for a whole host of reasons (some rational; some irrational) than do games against the Tigers or A's. What's wrong with admitting that? You can't pretend the rivalry with the Cubs doesn't exist or matter. So to answer your question, if the Sox were playing the A's on Sunday, I'd still want Garland to pitch -- but for different, less passionate reasons (e.g. he's a better pitcher than McCarthy).

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 02:57 PM
Perhaps in a metaphysical sense it shouldn't matter who the opponent is on Sunday. But the reality of the situation is that it's the Cubs and those games simply matter more to me and I believe to most Sox fans for a whole host of reasons (some rational; some irrational) than do games against the Tigers or A's. What's wrong with admitting that? You can't pretend the rivalry with the Cubs doesn't exist or matter. So to answer your question, if the Sox were playing the A's on Sunday, I'd still want Garland to pitch -- but for different, less passionate reasons (e.g. he's a better pitcher than McCarthy).

Well, let's agree to disagree then. If the Sox lose the series to the Cubs, it's much easier for me to say, "Hey, call me when you're more than 20 games over .500." That's why these games don't mean more than other, intra-division games.

Mickster
06-21-2005, 02:58 PM
So then how come the Sox didn't gain a full game against the Twins yesterday?:redneck

:scratches head, throws calculator on ground and stomps:

gf2020
06-21-2005, 02:58 PM
I want to see Garland pitch Sunday and it has nothing to do with the Cubs. I'd just like to see the two Cubans broken up in the rotation to help the bullpen out, even though JC hasn't taxed the bullpen too much.

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 02:59 PM
I want to see Garland pitch Sunday and it has nothing to do with the Cubs. I'd just like to see the two Cubans broken up in the rotation to help the bullpen out, even though JC hasn't taxed the bullpen too much.

This is logic I can agree with. I think you either reshuffle now or at the break. Either works for me.

Mickster
06-21-2005, 02:59 PM
I want to see Garland pitch Sunday and it has nothing to do with the Cubs. I'd just like to see the two Cubans broken up in the rotation to help the bullpen out, even though JC hasn't taxed the bullpen too much.

There is plenty of time to break up the Cubans. We have 3 days off for the AS game. They can juggle the rotation then.

Heffalump
06-21-2005, 03:16 PM
It should be B-Mac. We should be looking for opportunities to rest our aces (or at least don't shorten their regular rest) in order to keep them fresh come October.

If the Sox only had a one or two game lead on the Twinkies, then I would say go with Garland.

It's not even the all-star break, El Duque is already showing signs of wear, we need to do our best to keep the other big four healthy. They are the KEY to what we have accomplished to date and they will be the KEY to kicking @ss in the playoffs.

Plus, starting B-Mac against the scrubs will just be like another minor league start for him !!

Mickster
06-21-2005, 04:43 PM
Garland it is, per ESPN am 1000.

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2005, 04:47 PM
Garland it is, per ESPN am 1000.Did they say what they were doing with McCarthy? They could send him back down and bring up a true reliever to take some of the load off the pen. With off-days they could keep the starters on the regular schedule until they'd need someone on July 2. I'd assume Hernandez would be back by then, but if not, they could bring McCarthy back since his 10 days would be up.

soxwon
06-21-2005, 04:48 PM
BMac. Cubs are just another team. And the decision will be made before Saturday so if it is JG, he can keep his normal routine and throwing days.


go with BRAND M, but get ready with the bullpen early(just in case).
right now Brandon, is not a ML starter, he needs the minors.
garland on sunday to win 2 out of 3

Mickster
06-21-2005, 04:52 PM
Did they say what they were doing with McCarthy? They could send him back down and bring up a true reliever to take some of the load off the pen. With off-days they could keep the starters on the regular schedule until they'd need someone on July 2. I'd assume Hernandez would be back by then, but if not, they could bring McCarthy back since his 10 days would be up.

No mention, I'll assume he'll stay up until El Duque comes back. Would they send BMac down just to bring up a bullpen arm and waste an option for someone who will just be up for such a short time????

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2005, 04:57 PM
No mention, I'll assume he'll stay up until El Duque comes back. Would they send BMac down just to bring up a bullpen arm and waste an option for someone who will just be up for such a short time????There are a number of possiblities (Bajenaru, Adkins...) who are already on the 40-man roster so they're using up option years regardless. I'd think they'd rather keep McCarthy pitching on his regular schedule rather than sitting in the bullpen.

Mickster
06-21-2005, 04:59 PM
There are a number of possiblities (Bajenaru, Adkins...) who are already on the 40-man roster so they're using up option years regardless. I'd think they'd rather keep McCarthy pitching on his regular schedule rather than sitting in the bullpen.

Makes sense. How's Adkins been doing? Wansn't he starting down there?

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2005, 05:07 PM
Makes sense. How's Adkins been doing? Wansn't he starting down there?Adkins has been relieving, and not too well. Bajenaru has been lights out. Jenks could also get a shot, but I don't think he's nearly as ready. I could see bringing one of these guys up to see how they do. It would be a good time to find out. If he works out they can launch Vizcaino when the time comes for Hernandez to come off the DL.

maurice
06-22-2005, 11:00 AM
Adkins has been starting all year for Charlotte and blows. He started yesterday and gave up 5 ER in 6 IP. He's now 3-6 with a 6.19 ERA.