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White Sox Josh
06-21-2005, 11:32 AM
What should the Sox do with Vizcaino. I say trade him or send him down he is worthless.

BaseballTonyght
06-21-2005, 11:34 AM
What should the Sox do with Vizcaino. I say trade him or send him down he is worthless.

Personally, I think he's going to turn it around in the 2nd half. Assuming he isn't traded :D:.

21whitesoxway
06-21-2005, 11:40 AM
it's time to call the jizz-canater a failure, but I'd assume that Ozzie and KW won't ditch him till another month or so. This gives vizcaino time to turn things around, and the Jenks, Baj competition in Charlotte to see if one of those guys can be lights out. Either way, I would like to solve this problem through our own system, or at least try to.

elrod
06-21-2005, 11:40 AM
He's out of options so sending him down would require him to clear waivers. I think they should send him through the waiver wire and if he makes it, send him down. If somebody claims him then we should pull him back.

SoxSpeed22
06-21-2005, 11:46 AM
He's out of options so sending him down would require him to clear waivers. I think they should send him through the waiver wire and if he makes it, send him down. If somebody claims him then we should pull him back.You do realize that will never work because a ton of teams need bullpen help and we'd be givin' away a decent reliever. Stick with him, but limit his situations.

scottjanssens
06-21-2005, 11:49 AM
You do realize that will never work because a ton of teams need bullpen help and we'd be givin' away a decent reliever. Stick with him, but limit his situations.

Right, make him the new Shingo.

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 11:54 AM
As much as he has sucked and deserved the boos last night, lights out middle relievers are not easy to find and are not cheap. Viz at least has a history of being good, so I am guessing KW at least keeps him around for the forseeable future. Unless something better falls into his lap, I don't think KW is gonna give up on him just yet.

DaleJRFan
06-21-2005, 11:55 AM
Trade him? Who is going to take him? And, who that is available is better?

Send him down? Why? So he he wonk on his slider? He doesn't need to go down to work on his slider.

He needs more appearances and more chances, same with Shingo and Marte. Marte and Vizcaino were Ozzie's two favorites eary on and were effective. Different guys have emerged recently. Go with the hot hand.

Ventura Fan 23
06-21-2005, 12:01 PM
I'd say give him one more inning, if he messes up again then trade him, send him down, release him, do SOMETHING to get rid of him.

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 12:02 PM
I'd say give him one more inning, if he messes up again then trade him, send him down, release him, do SOMETHING to get rid of him.

Because one inning is the most reasonable way to judge a pitcher.

ChicagoHoosier
06-21-2005, 12:06 PM
Agree with many of you - not sure we have many options here. I say keep him and hope we can be a steady reliever without too high of expectations.

Last night everyone was hitting the ball, so you can't just blame him. Cotts looked great, though.

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2005, 12:11 PM
I'm usually one of the last people here to give up on a player, but I've seen enough of Vizcaino. His WHIP is consistently in the 1.5-2.0 range and he just doesn't seem to be improving in any discernable way. He has no velocity and doesn't disguise it well. He can't get breaking pitches over. I'd like to think he's going to get better, but I just don't see how.

As it stands, too much of the bullpen load is on four guys. That's just not sustainable for the whole season. These guys will have nothing left in October. Hopefully, Shingo can start pitching well enough to take some of the load, but the bullpen situation is the #1 priority IMO, and has to be addressed.

maurice
06-21-2005, 12:12 PM
Trade him? Who is going to take him?

The cubs got 2 prospects for Hawkins.

who that is available is better?

Promote Baj. He's not likely to duplicate the sub-one ERA he has going in Charlotte, but it's unlikely that he would pitch any worse than Viz.

1951Campbell
06-21-2005, 12:19 PM
As long as he doesn't pitch in any meaningful situations, I don't care what happens.

White Sox Josh
06-21-2005, 12:49 PM
A guy by the name of Jay Witasick. He pitches for the Rockies and will probably be traded soon. He has a 2.42 ERA and his Bating Average against him is .211. Not only that but he has a 1.76 ERA at Coors Field. That is impressive. His mentality is very similar to Hermy in that he goes after the hitters and doesn't walk a lot of guys. He can be used in any bullpen role and is an innings eater.

ChiSoxRowand
06-21-2005, 12:53 PM
I say we keep Viz and send Shingo down. Shingo just needs to go down to Charlotte and get his control back.

White Sox Josh
06-21-2005, 12:55 PM
I say we keep Viz and send Shingo down. Shingo just needs to go down to Charlotte and get his control back.are you on the Wacky Weed. Shingo has been very good in June so far and has worked his way back up the bullpen. He also hasn't walked a guy in the last 3 outings he has had. Put down the pipe.

wdelaney72
06-21-2005, 01:29 PM
Another appearance, and another fight at the bat rack in the opponent's dugout. Trade him. If the Cubs can deal Latoya Hawkins, Kenny can deal Viz.

TaylorStSox
06-21-2005, 01:41 PM
How can you compare Hawkins to Vizcaino? That makes no sense. Hawkins was a premiere reliever in this league for 3 years. He's got excellent stuff.

Vizcaino has been an okay reliever with okay stuff his whole career.

Anyway, the only thing you can do with him is release him outright. He won't clear waivers and he won't have value in a trade. That's not going to happen. So, deal with it.


Shingo's been pitching well in mop up, low pressure duty. I have 0 faith in his ability to throw strikes in pressure situations.

Harry Chappas
06-21-2005, 01:41 PM
As much as it pains me to type this, I'd keep him around a while longer. He has been a pretty solid middle reliever the last few years and he may work his way through this period. However, I'd be careful on when/how we use him and try to get his confidence back during the occasional laugher. This strategy has seemed to work (knock on wood) with Shingo.

maurice
06-21-2005, 02:20 PM
Vizcaino:
- 2 good years for the Brew crew, including 2004
- a bunch of blah years for MIL and OAK
- in the midst of a crappy season
- career 4.63 ERA
- 30 years old

Hawkins:
- save blowing headcase for the cubs
- 3 good years setting up for the twinks
- a bunch of bad years for the twinks
- in the midst of a crappy season
- career 4.85 ERA
- 32 years old

Both players are gambles who may or may not return to form. Hawkins has better stuff, but if he were significantly better than Viz, the cubs would have kept him. Heck, the cubs probably could use Viz right now.

The bottom line is, if Hendry could find a team to give up (IIRC) 2 former high draft picks for Hawkins, KW should be able to find somebody willing to give up at least one marginal prosepct for Viz. If he "won't clear waivers," that indicates that somebody thinks he fits on their roster. Maybe a return to the NL would do him some good.

mweflen
06-21-2005, 02:24 PM
Stick a fork in him. He's done. Package him with Crede and a prospect for Chavez. We have plenty of other guys who can come in and let all inherited runners score. They're a dime-a-freakin-dozen.

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 02:27 PM
Stick a fork in him. He's done. Package him with Crede and a prospect for Chavez. We have plenty of other guys who can come in and let all inherited runners score. They're a dime-a-freakin-dozen.

But I think the point is who can we get that is lights out? There is no sense in replacing Viz with another incarnation of Viz. If we can upgrade, of course go for it.

mweflen
06-21-2005, 02:33 PM
But I think the point is who can we get that is lights out? There is no sense in replacing Viz with another incarnation of Viz. If we can upgrade, of course go for it.

What I'm saying is, if we package Viz and Crede with a prospect for Chavez, we can have BMac in the pen for long relief and mop-up duty, and a proven .280/30/100 guy anchoring our lineup. It's an upgrade both ways.

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 02:35 PM
What I'm saying is, if we package Viz and Crede with a prospect for Chavez, we can have BMac in the pen for long relief and mop-up duty, and a proven .280/30/100 guy anchoring our lineup. It's an upgrade both ways.

Viz + Crede + prospect doesn't get Chavez unless Bean is on something, IMO.

mweflen
06-21-2005, 02:39 PM
Beane needs to free up dough and get some pitching. He might listen to the right package of players. And yes, I know he has publicly stated that Chavez is not on the block. But we all know what a GM's statements mean when it comes July.

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 02:40 PM
Beane needs to free up dough and get some pitching. He might listen to the right package of players. And yes, I know he has publicly stated that Chavez is not on the block. But we all know what a GM's statements mean when it comes July.

Yea, GM statements mean nothing now. But I just don't see that package being attractive at all. Plus, I am not sure that is the best use of our money. If we are gonnaadd $10MM in payroll, find a stud pitcher.

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2005, 02:41 PM
What I'm saying is, if we package Viz and Crede with a prospect for Chavez, we can have BMac in the pen for long relief and mop-up duty, and a proven .280/30/100 guy anchoring our lineup. It's an upgrade both ways.There's only one problem with this. It should all be deep pink, because there's no way in hell you're going to get Chavez for Vizcaino, Crede and a prospect unless that prospect is named Brandon McCarthy. And that's a no-go as far as I'm concerned.

Vizcaino will have some value in a trade. There is some possibility he'll come around. He certainly has more value than the traditional PTBNL and probably a better than a AA player. Include him with a prospect for a good reliever. There are quite a few decent relievers you could get for that.

mweflen
06-21-2005, 02:45 PM
There's only one problem with this. It should all be deep pink, because there's no way in hell you're going to get Chavez for Vizcaino, Crede and a prospect unless that prospect is named Brandon McCarthy. And that's a no-go as far as I'm concerned.

Vizcaino will have some value in a trade. There is some possibility he'll come around. He certainly has more value than the traditional PTBNL and probably a better than a AA player. Include him with a prospect for a good reliever. There are quite a few decent relievers you could get for that.

I am not averse to this scenario. But I'd rather dream big and kill 2 birds with one stone here. Maybe Crede/Anderson/Viz for Chavez/PTBNL? That way, we still have BMac for long relief and mop-up duty in this year's pen. I think you're underestimating Crede's trade value - he has plus-plus Defense and a tremendous offensive upside.

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2005, 02:56 PM
I am not averse to this scenario. But I'd rather dream big and kill 2 birds with one stone here. Maybe Crede/Anderson/Viz for Chavez/PTBNL? That way, we still have BMac for long relief and mop-up duty in this year's pen. I think you're underestimating Crede's trade value - he has plus-plus Defense and a tremendous offensive upside.Crede's currently hitting .243. Chavez is at .250. Even assuming Chavez would come around and hit 40 pts higher than Crede (no guarantee by any stretch of the imagination), that works out to less than one extra hit a week. It's not as if there's going to be a night-and-day difference.

IMO, the glaring hole on this team is the bullpen, not 3B. If I were in Kenny's shoes, that's where I would be concentrating. There are at least a dozen good relievers on teams going nowhere. Only a few will command a premium price. McCarthy doesn't belong in long relief. He's going to be needed again, probably several times, before the end of the season to spell Hernandez. Pull a trade for a decent bullpen arm and I'm happy with the rest of the team as-is.

mweflen
06-21-2005, 03:00 PM
Crede's currently hitting .243. Chavez is at .250. Even assuming Chavez would come around and hit 40 pts higher than Crede (no guarantee by any stretch of the imagination), that works out to less than one extra hit a week. It's not as if there's going to be a night-and-day difference.

IMO, the glaring hole on this team is the bullpen, not 3B. If I were in Kenny's shoes, that's where I would be concentrating. There are at least a dozen good relievers on teams going nowhere. Only a few will command a premium price. McCarthy doesn't belong in long relief. He's going to be needed again, probably several times, before the end of the season to spell Hernandez. Pull a trade for a decent bullpen arm and I'm happy with the rest of the team as-is.

Both Crede and Chavez are currently in the midst of dramatic upswings in average. However, historically, Chavez is by far the better hitter, and if both regress towards the mean, we'd be looking at at least a 40 point swing with more power.

I agree with your approach in principle, since it is conservative and of course since the current squad is doing so well. However, who are you going to trade for just a reliever? If we're going to have to part with a good prospect (Anderson,/Sweeney/BMac) to get something, why not roll the dice on a potentially huge boon to our currently inconsistent offense?

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2005, 03:03 PM
Both Crede and Chavez are currently in the midst of dramatic upswings in average. However, historically, Chavez is by far the better hitter, and if both regress towards the mean, we'd be looking at at least a 40 point swing with more power.

I agree with your approach in principle, since it is conservative and of course since the current squad is doing so well. However, who are you going to trade for just a reliever? If we're going to have to part with a good prospect (Anderson,/Sweeney/BMac) to get something, why not roll the dice on a potentially huge boon to our currently inconsistent offense?Inconsistent offense? What team are we talking about?:?:

Besides, by trading for Chavez, you will have used up your prime trade ammo and not addressed the biggest weakness. First things first.

mweflen
06-21-2005, 03:11 PM
Inconsistent offense? What team are we talking about?:?:

Besides, by trading for Chavez, you will have used up your prime trade ammo and not addressed the biggest weakness. First things first.

ON2, our pitching cannot maintain the pace it has in the first 2 months. Pitching is the main reason we have so many wins - you can read any number of player quotes to this effect, and they are absolutely right. Our offense has been quite inconsistent. There are times we'll score 2 in the first and then just disappear for 8 innings.

Sooner or later, our pitching won't be able to hold 1-0 and 2-0 leads with the same consistency. Also, much as I'd like us to, we very likely won't be able to maintain this insane pace with 1-run games forever.

BMac would be a great option out of the pen - a pen of Cotts/McCarthy/Marte/Politte/Shingo/Hermanson would stand up well against any pen in both leagues.

Frankly, when you look at it this way, the Bullpen is not our most glaring hole, a consistent power bat is. If we can keep BMac in doing so, trading for Chavez would be huge. World Series huge.

Hangar18
06-21-2005, 03:18 PM
Weve seen countless times already, the other GM in town Jim Hendry
is able to trade worthless, tired, injured, expensive, unproductive, lazy
and useless players and able to acquire Valuable and Worthy players.
LaTroya Hawkins for instance. The guy stunk and was basically damaged goods, Hendry moved quickly, pulled the wool over the Giants eyes, and
got a pretty quality minor-leaguer in Jerome Williams in his stead. KW
can do the same. Get to it Kenny, find a sucker and get us Clemons

mweflen
06-21-2005, 03:21 PM
Weve seen countless times already, the other GM in town Jim Hendry
is able to trade worthless, tired, injured, expensive, unproductive, lazy
and useless players and able to acquire Valuable and Worthy players.
LaTroya Hawkins for instance.

Yeah. LaTroy was deemed worthy and valuable before he started to stink it up for the Flubs. The FLubbies have a history of trading for or acquiring decent players, only to see them somehow degrade exponentially over short periods of time.

Next example! :D:

mdep524
06-21-2005, 03:22 PM
If he's not traded, the simple solution is for the Sox to take more 5-run leads. :smile: With every game being a one-run nailbiter, there hasn't been a chance for Vizcaino to get up there is a less pressure situation and get some work in.

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2005, 03:23 PM
ON2, our pitching cannot maintain the pace it has in the first 2 months. Pitching is the main reason we have so many wins - you can read any number of player quotes to this effect, and they are absolutely right. Our offense has been quite inconsistent. There are times we'll score 2 in the first and then just disappear for 8 innings.

Sooner or later, our pitching won't be able to hold 1-0 and 2-0 leads with the same consistency. Also, much as I'd like us to, we very likely won't be able to maintain this insane pace with 1-run games forever.

BMac would be a great option out of the pen - a pen of Cotts/McCarthy/Marte/Politte/Shingo/Hermanson would stand up well against any pen in both leagues.

Frankly, when you look at it this way, the Bullpen is not our most glaring hole, a consistent power bat is.Perhaps you haven't noticed, but the Sox are currently 5th in the AL in offense. And I don't know by what measure you say they're inconsistent. They're certainly more consistent than last year. And BTW, they're currently 3rd in the AL in HR, so I don't see a lack of power as a big problem. And with Frank Thomas back in the lineup and Konerko heating up, the power numbers are just going to get better.

I don't know why you would assume McCarthy would pitch well out of the bullpen. It's a completely different approach to the game. It took Cotts a full year to figure it out. I'd much rather get an established, experienced bullpen pitcher who I knew I could count on than throw McCarthy into the pen and hope for the best. Besides, they will still need him to spell Hernandez at least once before the end of the season, and probably more than that. Who takes that role if you put McCarthy in the pen?

mweflen
06-21-2005, 03:27 PM
Who takes that role if you put McCarthy in the pen?

You're right. Once you put a guy in the pen, there is no way in the universe you can take him out for a spot start. (i.e. Buehrle in 2000, cough cough!!!)

The Sox have scored 3 or less in 20 games, and 6 or more in 21. I think it's fair to say that scoring 3 runs or less does not create a reasonable expectation for your starter to pick up the win (based on ERAs of starters and bullpen staffs).

It's all picking nits, because of course our record is quite good. I just think having a consistent power bat in place of Crede's with equal or better defense can only be a good thing.

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2005, 03:33 PM
You're right. Once you put a guy in the pen, there is no way in the universe you can take him out for a spot start. (i.e. Buehrle in 2000, cough cough!!!)
A spot start is one thing, but if a pitcher goes on the DL, that's at least two starts. And if he's not stretched out on a regular 5 day schedule, you wind up pitching the guy for only 3 or 4 innings, which taxes the bullpen. Screw that. Get an experienced reliever and leave McCarthy on his regular schedule.

mweflen
06-21-2005, 03:38 PM
A spot start is one thing, but if a pitcher goes on the DL, that's at least two starts. And if he's not stretched out on a regular 5 day schedule, you wind up pitching the guy for only 3 or 4 innings, which taxes the bullpen. Screw that. Get an experienced reliever and leave McCarthy on his regular schedule.

His regular schedule of what? They are going to keep him up, as has been intimated in several articles in the past week. So either he is going to replace Duque wholesale (not going to happen) or he is going to pitch out of the pen. Otherwise, to maintain his "schedule," he will go back down.

At his current level of endurance and skill, McCarthy is only going to give you 4 solid innings, anyway.

Now tell me - who ought to go down - McCarthy, Vizcaino, or Shingo?

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2005, 04:04 PM
His regular schedule of what? They are going to keep him up, as has been intimated in several articles in the past week. So either he is going to replace Duque wholesale (not going to happen) or he is going to pitch out of the pen. Otherwise, to maintain his "schedule," he will go back down.

At his current level of endurance and skill, McCarthy is only going to give you 4 solid innings, anyway.

Now tell me - who ought to go down - McCarthy, Vizcaino, or Shingo?I don't see them keeping McCarthy up after Hernandez comes back, despite the cryptic language from KW. We've seen that before and it usually means nothing at all. Send him back down to keep working on his stuff. He's not ready to start full-time and this is not the time to experiment with McCarthy pitching out of the pen. Get an experienced reliever.

buehrle4cy05
06-21-2005, 04:19 PM
Weren't there like 3 threads like this earlier in the week, and that member who started them got banned?

mweflen
06-21-2005, 04:25 PM
I don't see them keeping McCarthy up after Hernandez comes back, despite the cryptic language from KW. We've seen that before and it usually means nothing at all. Send him back down to keep working on his stuff. He's not ready to start full-time and this is not the time to experiment with McCarthy pitching out of the pen. Get an experienced reliever.

I think it's 50-50. Vizcaino really opened some eyes last night (eyes which aprently have been shut for his other 15 or so horrible outings...), and might get moved or sent down. I trust BMac's pure stuff more than Viz-gas-can-o 's by far, and it's hard to see anyone feeling differently. Whether or not you think it's a good idea/bad idea to pitch him out of the pen a la Buehrle 2000, is another matter.

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2005, 04:33 PM
I think it's 50-50. Vizcaino really opened some eyes last night (eyes which aprently have been shut for his other 15 or so horrible outings...), and might get moved or sent down. I trust BMac's pure stuff more than Viz-gas-can-o 's by far, and it's hard to see anyone feeling differently. Whether or not you think it's a good idea/bad idea to pitch him out of the pen a la Buehrle 2000, is another matter.One other consideration: Vizcaino is out of options, so they can't just send him down. He'll definately get claimed off waivers. Which means if McCarthy isn't effective in the pen, you have to go with Bajaneru or Adkins or someone else from AAA. Or make the trade you could have made in the first place.

And as poorly as Vizcaino has pitched lately, he still has some trade value, which would be lost by waiving him. It just makes a lot more sense to me to trade Vizcaino and a prospect for an experienced reliever and let McCarthy develop as a starter.

skobabe8
06-21-2005, 05:08 PM
I hope he turns it around, because right now he is Mike Jackson basically. But alot of people are looking for bullpen help--ANY kind of bullpen help--so maybe we can unload him. Not sure what we could get in return, however.

Mohoney
06-21-2005, 10:49 PM
I'm wondering how much would we have to give up for Eddie Guardado.

Given Ozzie's tendency to play the lefty-lefty matchup percentage, I'm kind of worried that Marte and Cotts could end up overworked, like Marte, Politte, and Shingo were last year.

If we were able to land Guardado without giving up anybody on the major league roster, he becomes another great late-inning LHRP option. We could then go to a 12 man staff, with Vizcaino truly relegated to "mop-up" duty, and nobody else asked to go stints longer than 1 inning with any kind of regularity. If Vizcaino turns it around, he can pitch in a few late-inning situations as well, and our 7 man pen would be dynamite.

To keep a bullpen of Cotts, Marte, Shingo, Politte, Hermanson, and Guardado relatively fresh come October by assigning many of the "junk" innings to Vizcaino is, IMO, worth keeping him around, and, IMO, provides more value to the club than what Timo Perez brings.

Since Carl Everett is going to be the 4th OF and primary LH bat off the bench, Timo's value is diminished anyway. Podsednik plays CF on Rowand's days off, and Everett plays LF. When Podsednik or Dye get a day off, Everett fills in at whichever corner is vacated.

I don't really see the need for a 5th OF on this team, since Ozuna can play an inning or two of LF in a pinch if we're in a real bind in an extra inning game or something.

wdelaney72
06-22-2005, 10:31 AM
I don't care how Viz is dealt with, I just don't want to see him in the game unless it's total mop-up duty. He's just been plain bad. Trade-him, dump-him, do whatever. I don't care. I wasn't trying to see he has the resume that Hawkins does, all I was saying is Hawkins was HORRIBLE for 2 seasons and Hendry found someone to take a gamble on him. There's hope for getting SOMETHING for Vizcaino.

slavko
06-22-2005, 10:41 AM
are you on the Wacky Weed. Shingo has been very good in June so far and has worked his way back up the bullpen. He also hasn't walked a guy in the last 3 outings he has had. Put down the pipe.

Shingo can only throw his fastball for strikes right now. He can't locate his slow stuff and that severely limits what you can do with him.

mweflen
06-22-2005, 11:49 AM
I hope he turns it around, because right now he is Mike Jackson basically.

Basically? How about in every possible respect? Let's see... gets hit a ton, cannot keep an inherited runner from scoring... no pop or movement on anything... add 30 years to his age and abracadabra, Mike Jackson!

Since he is out of options, trading him with a prospect for good bullpen help might be an idea worth pursuing. Happy, ON2? :tongue:

Ol' No. 2
06-22-2005, 11:54 AM
Basically? How about in every possible respect? Let's see... gets hit a ton, cannot keep an inherited runner from scoring... no pop or movement on anything... add 30 years to his age and abracadabra, Mike Jackson!

Since he is out of options, trading him with a prospect for good bullpen help might be an idea worth pursuing. Happy, ON2? :tongue:I'd be even more happy if it actually happened.

mweflen
06-22-2005, 12:12 PM
I'd be even more happy if it actually happened.

Me three. Although I'd still like Eric Chavez.

SOXSINCE'70
06-22-2005, 12:17 PM
I am willing to give him a few more weeks to turn
his horrid start around.But not much.I'll say the
AS Break and leave it at that.

fquaye149
06-22-2005, 01:37 PM
send him to.....

DETROIT!