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View Full Version : Cold pizza June 21st- Crede on block??--"The Game" wears Sox hat


The Dude
06-21-2005, 09:31 AM
They just said that Joe Crede is on the trading block because he doesnt fit our style of play, etc. Consider the source though. Talk about Randa as a replacement.

Also, "The Game" I guess hes a hip-hop artist, is on the show right now wearing a Sox hat. Reminds me of the old rap artists wearing White Sox hats.

Just happened to catch all this channel surfing.

downstairs
06-21-2005, 09:35 AM
Huh? Style of play? What does/doesn't he do that we absolutely need?

I see very few holes in our offense and defense. Yeah, not everyone is an all star... but the cards we were dealt are pretty damn good (all around.)

Pitching may be an issue in the 5th spot... so if a Crede has to go to secure a world series ring with a star pitcher, so be it.

(BTW: I see rapper wearing Sox hats all the time. I think its more for the black-and-white, gothic lettering style than really being a fan. But... publicity is publicity!)

The Dude
06-21-2005, 09:37 AM
Huh? Style of play? What does/doesn't he do that we absolutely need?

I see very few holes in our offense and defense. Yeah, not everyone is an all star... but the cards we were dealt are pretty damn good (all around.)

Pitching may be an issue in the 5th spot... so if a Crede has to go to secure a world series ring with a star pitcher, so be it.

(BTW: I see rapper wearing Sox hats all the time. I think its more for the black-and-white, gothic lettering style than really being a fan. But... publicity is publicity!)

They said Crede doesnt have much speed and strikes out too much, but is heating up in June after a horrible May. Take all this for what its worth, its Cold Pizza.

34 Inch Stick
06-21-2005, 09:39 AM
You can book it that Crede will be here until his free agency year (Boras client).

scottjanssens
06-21-2005, 09:47 AM
Huh? Style of play? What does/doesn't he do that we absolutely need?

Bunt, get on base. His defense is average. I know he makes all those incredible plays, but if you look at the fielding stats he come's out as average. He makes very slightly more errors per 100 games than the average third baseman. His Rate2 is 99 (where 100 is average). IIRC Randa is the same. A really good third baseman will have a 104. A stellar third baseman 108 or higher.

Still, I don't think a trade is absolutely necessary. Sometimes the best move is not making a move.

jhill36
06-21-2005, 09:55 AM
I saw the same Cold Pizza and thought about posting this thread myself. So, the national media has finally picked up what we've been talking about in here for weeks now. But I pray to God that Crede stays right where he is. He's a part of what got us where we are now. Is he Eric Chavez? No. Will he ever be? No. But in this special, one-of-a-kind season, the invisible statistic is the chemistry in that clubhouse and I don't think we should go shopping for someone else. You might ruin the chemistry, inherit an unknown injury, or worse.

Keep Crede.

fquaye149
06-21-2005, 10:28 AM
Bunt, get on base. His defense is average. I know he makes all those incredible plays, but if you look at the fielding stats he come's out as average. He makes very slightly more errors per 100 games than the average third baseman. His Rate2 is 99 (where 100 is average). IIRC Randa is the same. A really good third baseman will have a 104. A stellar third baseman 108 or higher.

Still, I don't think a trade is absolutely necessary. Sometimes the best move is not making a move.

His defense is not average. It's not just the incredible plays he makes, he gets to balls that very few get to, and when he makes errors it's on those plays.

I can't believe we have reached the point in baseball where stats can convince us that Joe Crede is not a stellar defender.

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 11:46 AM
His defense is not average. It's not just the incredible plays he makes, he gets to balls that very few get to, and when he makes errors it's on those plays.

I can't believe we have reached the point in baseball where stats can convince us that Joe Crede is not a stellar defender.

You beat me to it. Anyone who thinks Crede is just average defensively needs their head checked.

I would not be surprised, though, if they are exploring options. However, we CANNOT afford a downgrade defensively at 3rd, even if we pick up 30 points in batting average. It appears Joe is gonna hit his 20 homers and drive in 50-70 this year and hit in the neighborhood of .250. That should work with this team. And he has been hitting the ball hard the last few games.

beckett21
06-21-2005, 12:07 PM
Crede is frustrating to watch at the plate, but I still can't understand any infatuation with Joe Randa. Randa is NOT an upgrade. Period. There is no upside to Randa over Crede. A lateral move AT BEST, but more than likely an overall downgrade. I would not consider myself a big Crede fan, but that is the reality as I see it.

If not Chavez, give me Crede any day of the week--I want no part of the Joker. I'll stick with The Choker. :redneck

The Dude
06-21-2005, 12:21 PM
Crede is frustrating to watch at the plate, but I still can't understand any infatuation with Joe Randa. Randa is NOT an upgrade. Period. There is no upside to Randa over Crede. A lateral move AT BEST, but more than likely an overall downgrade. I would not consider myself a big Crede fan, but that is the reality as I see it.

If not Chavez, give me Crede any day of the week--I want no part of the Joker. I'll stick with The Choker. :redneck

The worst part of a swap type deal with a Randa, is we have to take on his salary.(which is over 2 million per) So as almost equal players, theres your downside to any possible deal.

daveeym
06-21-2005, 12:24 PM
His defense is not average. It's not just the incredible plays he makes, he gets to balls that very few get to, and when he makes errors it's on those plays.

I can't believe we have reached the point in baseball where stats can convince us that Joe Crede is not a stellar defender.:roflmao:.

fquaye149
06-21-2005, 12:46 PM
:roflmao:.

um?

Rich McKinney
06-21-2005, 01:28 PM
Bunt, get on base. His defense is average. I know he makes all those incredible plays, but if you look at the fielding stats he come's out as average. He makes very slightly more errors per 100 games than the average third baseman. His Rate2 is 99 (where 100 is average). IIRC Randa is the same. A really good third baseman will have a 104. A stellar third baseman 108 or higher.

Still, I don't think a trade is absolutely necessary. Sometimes the best move is not making a move.

Scott...I'm wondering what this Rate2 is? I'm of the opinion that Crede is a well-above average defender at third so this surprises me a bit.

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 01:31 PM
Scott...I'm wondering what this Rate2 is? I'm of the opinion that Crede is a well-above average defender at third so this surprises me a bit.

Defensive saber stats mean nothing.

SomebodyToldMe
06-21-2005, 02:02 PM
The Game and 50 Cent both wear Sox hats in their new vids. Well, 50 wears it in Tony Yayo's.

Ahhh. Takes me back to seeing Dre wear the Sox hat.

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2005, 02:20 PM
Defensive saber stats mean nothing.Of all the stats you can come up with, defensive stats are the most meaningless. Carlos Lee had a 1.000 FPCT last year. 'Nuff said.

gobears1987
06-21-2005, 02:30 PM
Crede is above average in defense, but the only 2 positions where you can really value defense above offensive production are second base and shortstop. Crede is WAY BELOW average in his offensive stats. I would have no problem trading him. He is never going to be batting above .250 for long periods of time and is more likely to stay around the .230-.240 area for the rest of the season. He is a rally killer and nearly always an automatic out. I don't neccessarily believe we need someone as good as Chavez, but I'd like to see improvement at the thirdbase position. Crede is not the long term answer. I can't wait until Josh Fields is ready. Or we can try to plug in Pablo Ozuna a few more times. He was tearing it up yesterday and his speed scared the crap out of the KC pitchers. Crede's offense is CREDIOCRE.

I want to ask one question, why does EVERYONE defend Crede? He is not a great player. He attracts a ton of fans who defend him everytime he Ks with runners on to end an inning. During this same time, PK gets more haters than anyone. He makes some comment and 200 posters condemn him. He grounds into a double play and gets more hate, but then the same people ignore efforts like yesterday's 3 run bomb. This stuff has to stop for God's sake. Crede isn't worthy of the support he gets and PK deserves more props for his performance.

That being said, if we do make a trade, 3rd base is still not the most important need. Another bullpen arm is more important and we may want to look at the possibility of a 5th starter if Hernandez continues to have injuires and BMac struggles.

doublem23
06-21-2005, 02:44 PM
Crede is above average in defense, but the only 2 positions where you can really value defense above offensive production are second base and shortstop.

Not in the American League. Else, everyone would out fielding a Royce Clayton. :rolleyes:

I would say catcher is the only spot. I think most average teams can afford to hide one hole in their line-up, but that's about it.

SomebodyToldMe
06-21-2005, 02:49 PM
I want to ask one question, why does EVERYONE defend Crede? He is not a great player. He attracts a ton of fans who defend him everytime he Ks with runners on to end an inning. During this same time, PK gets more haters than anyone. He makes some comment and 200 posters condemn him. He grounds into a double play and gets more hate, but then the same people ignore efforts like yesterday's 3 run bomb. This stuff has to stop for God's sake. Crede isn't worthy of the support he gets and PK deserves more props for his performance.

Exactly! I don't understand why so many people defend Crede while it seems like EVERYONE hates Paulie. PK is of more value to this team than Crede ever will be and some people need to get that through their heads.

gobears1987
06-21-2005, 03:01 PM
Not in the American League. Else, everyone would out fielding a Royce Clayton. :rolleyes:

I would say catcher is the only spot. I think most average teams can afford to hide one hole in their line-up, but that's about it.
I guess I can concede that point. I honestly would prefer a great hitter over a great glove. I agree that catcher actually is the best position for a good defensive player. We at least seem to be in agreement that 3rd base is not the place where you should compromise offense for defense.

BTW, what happened to all of the Wes Helms trade talk? Our trades with the Brewers seem to work out well for all concerned.

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 03:05 PM
Why do people defend Crede? Probly b/c this team is built on defense. Our left side of the infield is as good as anyones. Ask our pitchers, they like that. And the offense is doing just fine with him batting 8th. Again, only replace Crede if we lose nothing defensively.

What does it take for people to realize that pitching and defense wins games and championships? For the last 5 years all anyone could talk about was the great offense we had. Now, we're winning games with a completely different philosophy and people still want to go back to offense, offense, offense. It baffles me.

fquaye149
06-21-2005, 03:11 PM
[QUOTE=gobears1987]

I want to ask one question, why does EVERYONE defend Crede? He is not a great player. He attracts a ton of fans who defend him everytime he Ks with runners on to end an inning. During this same time, PK gets more haters than anyone. He makes some comment and 200 posters condemn him. He grounds into a double play and gets more hate, but then the same people ignore efforts like yesterday's 3 run bomb. This stuff has to stop for God's sake. Crede isn't worthy of the support he gets and PK deserves more props for his performance.

QUOTE]

well, for starters, pk is not very good with the glove

yes crede is pretty crediocre with the bat (although for our #9 hitter, i'm not all that disappointed with his numbers).

All most people in this thread are doing is saying that anyone who says Crede is anything but very good with the glove should redirect their anxiety to his bat, which would at least be a legitimate complaint.

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2005, 03:23 PM
...but the only 2 positions where you can really value defense above offensive production are second base and shortstop. Says who? Why is defense more valuable at 2B and SS than at 3B? Do outs count for more when they're made by those players?:?:

The Dude
06-21-2005, 03:26 PM
I want to ask one question, why does EVERYONE defend Crede? He is not a great player. He attracts a ton of fans who defend him everytime he Ks with runners on to end an inning. During this same time, PK gets more haters than anyone. He makes some comment and 200 posters condemn him. He grounds into a double play and gets more hate, but then the same people ignore efforts like yesterday's 3 run bomb. This stuff has to stop for God's sake. Crede isn't worthy of the support he gets and PK deserves more props for his performance.
.

Ask Frater about why people hate PK. He will be MORE than willing to go on a rant about how much he hurts the team.

gobears1987
06-21-2005, 03:38 PM
Ask Frater about why people hate PK. He will be MORE than willing to go on a rant about how much he hurts the team.
Yeah, 3 run bombs that end up being the difference in the game REALLY hurt the team.

davenicholson
06-21-2005, 04:12 PM
The Game and 50 Cent both wear Sox hats in their new vids. Well, 50 wears it in Tony Yayo's.

Ahhh. Takes me back to seeing Dre wear the Sox hat.
I have absolutely no idea to whom (or what) you are referring here, but I assume that they are somehow famous. :?:

Realist
06-21-2005, 04:33 PM
Yay! ... a "bench or trade Crede thread! I suppose that means he's gonna be the guy to win the game for us tonite.

Joe Crede - My PTC for tonite's game.

scottjanssens
06-21-2005, 05:00 PM
Scott...I'm wondering what this Rate2 is? I'm of the opinion that Crede is a well-above average defender at third so this surprises me a bit.

Surprized the hell out of me too. I used to be a Crede defender as well.


Rate (as opposed to Rate2) is similar to FRAR (Fielding Runs Above Average) in that it measures the number of potential runs prevented by the fielder. It's 100 plus the difference of numer of runs prevented and the average runs prevented per 100 games. (Whereas FRAR is just the raw number of runs over the [theoretical] worst replacement in the league.) Rate2 is Rate modified to take league difficulty into account as well as normalize the value over time. It's important to note that these values aren't expected to be exact calculations of the number of runs actually prevented (that's impossible to know). But it does provide a common baseline in which to compare players.

The simple version is the more errors you have the worse you're rated. The number of opportunities is taken into account. someone with 2 errors in 20 attempts will rate higher than someone with 1 error in 10 attempts even though they would have the same fielding% and the former has a higher number of errors.


So the career Rate2 scores at third base for the players mentioned are:

Crede: 98
Randa: 102
Chavez: 102

For comparison:
Rolen tops the current list with 109
Ventura had 107

scottjanssens
06-21-2005, 05:01 PM
Of all the stats you can come up with, defensive stats are the most meaningless. Carlos Lee had a 1.000 FPCT last year. 'Nuff said.

Read my prior post about this. You're right FPCT is worthless. That's why they've come up with better ones.

fquaye149
06-21-2005, 05:05 PM
Yeah, 3 run bombs that end up being the difference in the game REALLY hurt the team.


good point. no one else on the white sox has ever hit a 3 run homer.

SomebodyToldMe
06-21-2005, 05:11 PM
I have absolutely no idea to whom (or what) you are referring here, but I assume that they are somehow famous. :?:

Wow. Someone actually doesn't know who 50 Cent is. That's weird.

But he and The Game are rappers.

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2005, 05:23 PM
Read my prior post about this. You're right FPCT is worthless. That's why they've come up with better ones.They're not any better for the simple fact that they can't possibly account for the fact that a good fielder will get to (and make errors on) balls that poor fielders will never get to. No one has ever come up with a realistic way to account for that. Yet people ceaselessly continue to fold, bend, spindle and mutilate the same lousy statistics in hopes that by doing so, something meaningful will somehow result. Garbage in, garbage out.

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 05:26 PM
They're not any better for the simple fact that they can't possibly account for the fact that a good fielder will get to (and make errors on) balls that poor fielders will never get to. No one has ever come up with a realistic way to account for that. Yet people ceaselessly continue to fold, bend, spindle and mutilate the same lousy statistics in hopes that by doing so, something meaningful will somehow result. Garbage in, garbage out.

I may make this my signature. So true.

gobears1987
06-21-2005, 05:26 PM
good point. no one else on the white sox has ever hit a 3 run homer.
No one seems to hit as many as he does, and he is currently our leading RBI producer. He has almost double Crede's RBI numbers (52 vs. 27 RBIs.). The only starter with less RBIs is Scott Podsednik, and he isn't expected to get them. AJ has an equal number as Crede, but did it in less games as he has Widger taking up a start every few games. AJ also was playing injured for a period.

He gets more hate than anyone. Crede sucks, he is an automatic out. When ever a rally is going, expect it to end when this 2nd coming of Royce Clayton comes up to bat. Crede SUCKS!!! There I stated the obvious. When will the rest of the Sox fans out there notice the obvious and begin to realize that our most pressing offensive need is 3rd base? Crede is nothing more than a AAAA player. I've said it once and I'll say it again. WHY DO PEOPLE DEFEND THIS LOSER????? I want to see Crede suceed as it owuld be good for the Sox, but that's just not happening and we need an alternative.

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 05:28 PM
No one seems to hit as many as he does, and he is currently our leading RBI producer. He has almost double Crede's RBI numbers (52 vs. 27 RBIs.). The only starter with less RBIs is Scott Podsednik, and he isn't expected to get them. AJ has an equal number as Crede, but did it in less games as he has Widger taking up a start every few games. AJ also was playing injured for a period.

He gets more hate than anyone. Crede sucks, he is an automatic out. When ever a rally is going, expect it to end when this 2nd coming of Royce Clayton comes up to bat. Crede SUCKS!!! There I stated the obvious. When will the rest of the Sox fans out there notice the obvious and begin to realize that our most pressing offensive need is 3rd base? Crede is nothing more than a AAAA player. I've said it once and I'll say it again. WHY DO PEOPLE DEFEND THIS LOSER????? I want to see Crede suceed as it owuld be good for the Sox, but that's just not happening and we need an alternative.

Get me a guy who plays the same level of defense and hits 50 points higher at a similar salary and we'll talk. If you haven't noticed, the offense has been just fine with Joe hitting 8th.

gobears1987
06-21-2005, 05:47 PM
Get me a guy who plays the same level of defense and hits 50 points higher at a similar salary and we'll talk. If you haven't noticed, the offense has been just fine with Joe hitting 8th.
I don't need a guy hitting 50 points higher. I'd take someone batting 20-30 points higher. I just want a thirdbaseman who bats .270. Crede sucks and never will.

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 05:49 PM
I don't need a guy hitting 50 points higher. I'd take someone batting 20-30 points higher. I just want a thirdbaseman who bats .270. Crede sucks and never will.

OK, find me a guy who hits .270, hits 20 homers and drives in 50-70 and plays at the same level defensively as Crede and doesn't make $10MM a year. I'll be waiting.

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2005, 05:52 PM
I don't need a guy hitting 50 points higher. I'd take someone batting 20-30 points higher. I just want a thirdbaseman who bats .270. Crede sucks and never will.People get way too worked up over a few pts in BA. Do the math and you'll see that those 20-30 pts works out to about one extra hit every other week. If you didn't keep the stats you'd never notice the difference.

scottjanssens
06-21-2005, 05:55 PM
They're not any better for the simple fact that they can't possibly account for the fact that a good fielder will get to (and make errors on) balls that poor fielders will never get to. No one has ever come up with a realistic way to account for that. Yet people ceaselessly continue to fold, bend, spindle and mutilate the same lousy statistics in hopes that by doing so, something meaningful will somehow result. Garbage in, garbage out.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. But accounting for number of total chances goes a long way toward that. Bigger range means more opportunities. In my previous example if the two player had played the same number of innings, it's obvious the second guy has much more range, and that's accounted for. No the advanced stats are not perfect values, but they generate consistent results.

Let's look at the career "hard" stats and see if we can find any correlation (unless you think Attempts and Errors are meaningless as well, in which case there's no point in arguing as neither of us will be able to support a position.)

Career at 3B E/TC/PO/A/INN -- TC per INN/PO per INN/A per INN/E per INN

Crede 39/1068/739/290/3717.1 -- .287/.078/.199/.010
Randa 124/3331/2301/906/10395.0 -- .320/.087/.221/.012
Chavez 93/2560/679/1788/7739.1 -- .330/.088/.231/.012

Rolen 122/3578/961/2495/10654.0 -- .336/.090/.234/.011
Ventura 220/5226/1467/3539/15927.2 -- .328/.092/.222/.014


So Crede actually has fewer errors per inning than the other, but he gets to fewer balls and throws out less per inning than those rated higher than him.

scottjanssens
06-21-2005, 05:57 PM
People get way too worked up over a few pts in BA. Do the math and you'll see that those 20-30 pts works out to about one extra hit every other week. If you didn't keep the stats you'd never notice the difference.

That's why OPS is a better measure for overall hitting ability OPS = OBA + SLG. Of course it should be used properly. Obviously Pods SLG will low and will affect his OPS. But then PODS isn't on the team to slug, he's on the team to get on base so OBA is the better stat to use.

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 05:59 PM
So Crede actually has fewer errors per inning than the other, but he gets to fewer balls and throws out less per inning than those rated higher than him.

Just curious how you know this? COuld it be that maybe, just maybe, Crede has been on a team with less ground ball pitchers? Maybe these other guys have had more balls hit to 3rd (or near 3rd) than Crede has?

See, things like that CANNOT be accounted for. It's why this defensive statistical crap will never mean a damn thing. Next you're gonna say that The Choice is an All-Star short stop.

EDIT: It also cannot be accounted for how many plays are routine and how many are difficult. See, defense is a very arbitrary thing. That's why you cannot accurately measure it with hard stats. Not everything can be simplified into some mathematical formula.

PicktoCLick72
06-21-2005, 06:01 PM
Keep Crede. In the overall scheme of things Randa will not help the Sox much more than Crede will.

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2005, 06:04 PM
You're certainly entitled to your opinion. But accounting for number of total chances goes a long way toward that. Bigger range means more opportunities. In my previous example if the two player had played the same number of innings, it's obvious the second guy has much more range, and that's accounted for. No the advanced stats are not perfect values, but they generate consistent results.

Let's look at the career "hard" stats and see if we can find any correlation (unless you think Attempts and Errors are meaningless as well, in which case there's no point in arguing as neither of us will be able to support a position.)

Career at 3B E/TC/PO/A/INN -- TC per INN/PO per INN/A per INN/E per INN

Crede 39/1068/739/290/3717.1 -- .287/.078/.199/.010
Randa 124/3331/2301/906/10395.0 -- .320/.087/.221/.012
Chavez 93/2560/679/1788/7739.1 -- .330/.088/.231/.012

Rolen 122/3578/961/2495/10654.0 -- .336/.090/.234/.011
Ventura 220/5226/1467/3539/15927.2 -- .328/.092/.222/.014


So Crede actually has fewer errors per inning than the other, but he gets to fewer balls and throws out less per inning than those rated higher than him.There are still too many other variables. For example, if you play on a team with a lot of groundball pitchers you may get more attempts. If you play on a team with a poor SS you may try to get to more balls that you know the SS won't get to. Attempts is highly variable and not a true indicator of range, which is why RF and its derivatives are BS.

soxwon
06-21-2005, 06:05 PM
They just said that Joe Crede is on the trading block because he doesnt fit our style of play, etc. Consider the source though. Talk about Randa as a replacement.

Also, "The Game" I guess hes a hip-hop artist, is on the show right now wearing a Sox hat. Reminds me of the old rap artists wearing White Sox hats.

Just happened to catch all this channel surfing.


there is only one "game" thats triple h of the WWE

soxwon
06-21-2005, 06:07 PM
I saw the same Cold Pizza and thought about posting this thread myself. So, the national media has finally picked up what we've been talking about in here for weeks now. But I pray to God that Crede stays right where he is. He's a part of what got us where we are now. Is he Eric Chavez? No. Will he ever be? No. But in this special, one-of-a-kind season, the invisible statistic is the chemistry in that clubhouse and I don't think we should go shopping for someone else. You might ruin the chemistry, inherit an unknown injury, or worse.

Keep Crede.


dont be crazy- Chavez three times the player crede is.
an all star gold glover who HITS.

Do that trade in a minute, include mccarthy too.

chavez joins us NO STOPPING US THEN.

scottjanssens
06-21-2005, 06:11 PM
Just curious how you know this? COuld it be that maybe, just maybe, Crede has been on a team with less ground ball pitchers? Maybe these other guys have had more balls hit to 3rd (or near 3rd) than Crede has?

See, things like that CANNOT be accounted for. It's why this defensive statistical crap will never mean a damn thing. Next you're gonna say that The Choice is an All-Star short stop.

EDIT: It also cannot be accounted for how many plays are routine and how many are difficult. See, defense is a very arbitrary thing. That's why you cannot accurately measure it with hard stats. Not everything can be simplified into some mathematical formula.

I'm not disputing that. Stats are just a tool to compare. The fact is that I've just empiracly shown that of the players listed Crede contributed the fewest outs per inning. I've also shown that he's had fewer chances. Maybe this is because he doesn't get as good a jump as the others, maybe it's because the ball didn't come his way as often (although the longer the player plays the less environment variable become a factor).

The point is he's contributed less to his team than the other players. If that's his fault then the defense could be improved by replacing him. If these numbers are due to environment then you lose nothing by replacing him since his replacement will have fewer TCs as well.

That said, I don't think we should trade for a third baseman. I just don't think that Crede isn't the second coming of Ventura.

scottjanssens
06-21-2005, 06:14 PM
There are still too many other variables. For example, if you play on a team with a lot of groundball pitchers you may get more attempts. If you play on a team with a poor SS you may try to get to more balls that you know the SS won't get to. Attempts is highly variable and not a true indicator of range, which is why RF and its derivatives are BS.

As I said, the longer the player is on the field, the more those factors average out. That's due to natural randomness, playing for different pitchers, playing for different teams, playing for different leagues, playing in different parks, etc...

It all averages out.

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 06:16 PM
I'm not disputing that. Stats are just a tool to compare. The fact is that I've just empiracly shown that of the players listed Crede contributed the fewest outs per inning. I've also shown that he's had fewer chances. Maybe this is because he doesn't get as good a jump as the others, maybe it's because the ball didn't come his way as often (although the longer the player plays the less environment variable become a factor).

The point is he's contributed less to his team than the other players. If that's his fault then the defense could be improved by replacing him. If these numbers are due to environment then you lose nothing by replacing him since his replacement will have fewer TCs as well.

That said, I don't think we should trade for a third baseman. I just don't think that Crede isn't the second coming of Ventura.

These stats don't get us anywhere in the argument as to whether Joe is a good defensive 3rd basemen. The things that make baseball players above average defensively cannot be measured by statistics. It is impossible. THERE ARE TOO MANY UNMEASUREABLE VARIABLES.

Therefore, you have to go by what the human eye can see. And most human eyes wil ltell you that Joe is a Gold Glove caliber 3rd baseman. Also, the longer he plays there in an environment where he actually has less chances the more disparity you'll see. That doesn't mean he gets to less balls. Anyone who has carefully watched Crede the last few years, and especially this year, can see he is a human vacuum at 3rd. And he gets to pretty much everything.

scottjanssens
06-21-2005, 06:17 PM
That's why OPS is a better measure for overall hitting ability OPS = OBA + SLG. Of course it should be used properly. Obviously Pods SLG will low and will affect his OPS. But then PODS isn't on the team to slug, he's on the team to get on base so OBA is the better stat to use.

You know what would be interesting, is to account for Pods stolen bases in his slugging percentage to get an "effective SLG". For example, if Pods singles and then steals 2nd (while the next batter is still at bat!) then that's effectively a double. That'd take some serious data work. I'll probably never have time for it.

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 06:19 PM
You know what would be interesting, is to account for Pods stolen bases in his slugging percentage to get an "effective SLG". For example, if Pods singles and then steals 2nd (while the next batter is still at bat!) then that's effectively a double. That'd take some serious data work. I'll probably never have time for it.

You'd also have to subtract for the times he gets caught stealing.

I'm the anti-stathead so I wouldn't even begin to consider doing this, but just pointing out the other side of the coin.

Ol' No. 2
06-21-2005, 06:24 PM
You know what would be interesting, is to account for Pods stolen bases in his slugging percentage to get an "effective SLG". For example, if Pods singles and then steals 2nd (while the next batter is still at bat!) then that's effectively a double. That'd take some serious data work. I'll probably never have time for it.I've often thought the same thing. It wouldn't be that hard. To be fair, you'd have to subract CS. You could add in BB to give a good measure for comparing leadoff hitters: TB+BB+SB-CS divided by PA.

scottjanssens
06-21-2005, 06:26 PM
These stats don't get us anywhere in the argument as to whether Joe is a good defensive 3rd basemen. The things that make baseball players above average defensively cannot be measured by statistics. It is impossible. THERE ARE TOO MANY UNMEASUREABLE VARIABLES.

Therefore, you have to go by what the human eye can see. And most human eyes wil ltell you that Joe is a Gold Glove caliber 3rd baseman. Also, the longer he plays there in an environment where he actually has less chances the more disparity you'll see. That doesn't mean he gets to less balls. Anyone who has carefully watched Crede the last few years, and especially this year, can see he is a human vacuum at 3rd. And he gets to pretty much everything.

The fact remains he contributes fewer outs to his team than the others. Yes, it's possible that he's a better fielder than the others, but that's unlikely.

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 06:27 PM
The fact remains he contributes fewer outs to his team than the others. Yes, it's possible that he's a better fielder than the others, but that's unlikely.

See, you have no basis to say it's unlikely. The first part of your statement is true. The second part you cannot back-up with any relevant data.

shoota
06-21-2005, 06:34 PM
They just said that Joe Crede is on the trading block because he doesnt fit our style of play, etc. Consider the source though. Talk about Randa as a replacement.

This is great news. It has been my belief for a while that Crede does not fit into the style of this team. Here's why:

1) He can't bunt. His last two bunt attempts were popped up for outs. One of his bunt attempts--against the Cubs in a critical situation, IIRC--was popped up and turned into a double play, killing the rally.

2) He can't run. Crede can't steal bases or give the threat of stealing bases. He's in the prime of his life, but he is the slowest guy on the team save for a man coming of a major foot injury and a man with a degenerative hip condition that limits his speed.

3) He doesn't give tough at bats. Hitting and running is a big part of Ozzie ball, and Ozzie doesn't have the confidence in Crede to execute his part at the plate for two reasons: 1) Crede can't hit behind runners, and 2) Crede swings and misses too often, so he would leave his teammate out to dry on the hit and run when he misses the pitch.

4) He's not a grinder. He doesn't give tough at bats.

scottjanssens
06-21-2005, 06:34 PM
I've often thought the same thing. It wouldn't be that hard. To be fair, you'd have to subract CS. You could add in BB to give a good measure for comparing leadoff hitters: TB+BB+SB-CS divided by PA.

Excellent point by you and IlSox7.

The difficult part is that to be accurate (!) you'd have to make sure the base was stolen while the next batter was still up and know which base was stolen. We'll already be fudging the fact that Pods wouldn't be on second with a 0-0 count on the next batter. Pods on 2nd with an 0-0 count could change what the pitcher would do with Pods on second with an 0-2 count.

I don't think Pods stealing 2nd with Iguchi up, followed by an Iguchi strikeout, then stealing 3rd with Rowand up would equate to a triple. This was to get a better value of SLG and therefore better OPS for players of Pods type. Just a thought experiment. I know I'm never going to sit down and crunch the numbers for it. I'm not even sure if all the numbers I'd need are publicly available.

[Jeebus, many confusing grammatical erros changed. It should make sense now.]

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 06:38 PM
This is great news. It has been my belief for a while that Crede does not fit into the style of this team. Here's why:

1) He can't bunt. His last two bunt attempts were popped up for outs. One of his bunt attempts--against the Cubs in a critical situation, IIRC--was popped up and turned into a double play, killing the rally.

2) He can't run. Crede can't steal bases or give the threat of stealing bases. He's in the prime of his life, but he is the slowest guy on the team save for a man coming of a major foot injury and a man with a degenerative hip condition that limits his speed.

3) He doesn't give tough at bats. Hitting and running is a big part of Ozzie ball, and Ozzie doesn't have the confidence in Crede to execute his part at the plate for two reasons: 1) Crede can't hit behind runners, and 2) Crede swings and misses too often, so he would leave his teammate out to dry on the hit and run when he misses the pitch.

4) He's not a grinder. He doesn't give tough at bats.

I think the point that most of us who are "defending"Crede are making is this:

Defense is a major key and Joe plays 3rd about as well as anyone. So, where can you find a 3rd baseman on par with Joe defensively who puts up bigger numbers for less than $10MM? I don't think you can. And if you're going to spend $10MM to upgrade this team, I think it could be better spent elsewhere.

shoota
06-21-2005, 06:38 PM
They're not any better for the simple fact that they can't possibly account for the fact that a good fielder will get to (and make errors on) balls that poor fielders will never get to. No one has ever come up with a realistic way to account for that. Yet people ceaselessly continue to fold, bend, spindle and mutilate the same lousy statistics in hopes that by doing so, something meaningful will somehow result. Garbage in, garbage out.

I agree with that opinion, but many of Crede's errors are on elementary plays where he throws the ball away or just failed to field a routine grounder to him.

And let us not forget that he has numerous errors that were not scored as such. Ironically, what Crede successfully catches are breaks from the official scorers.

scottjanssens
06-21-2005, 06:39 PM
See, you have no basis to say it's unlikely. The first part of your statement is true. The second part you cannot back-up with any relevant data.

The data I showed you is relevent. The longer a player plays, the more relavent his numbers become.

It's like GPS before they unscrambled the signal. It used to be something like up to 30 meters off for security purposes. If you wanted to know exactly where you were, you could take a running median of the changing values for about an hour and get that rate of error down to a few feet. The "noise" will cancel itself out while the "signal" remains constant.

skobabe8
06-21-2005, 06:40 PM
Who said it on Cold Pizza exactly?

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 06:41 PM
I agree with that opinion, but many of Crede's errors are on elementary plays where he throws the ball away or just failed to field a routine grounder to him.

And let us not forget that he has numerous errors that were not scored as such. Ironically, what Crede successfully catches are breaks from the official scorers.

Joe's made 4 errors this year. He's on pace,therefore, to make about 8 for the year. That's pretty damn good. As for scorekeep's luck, I certainly do not remember more than once or twice that Joe bobbled a sure-thing DP ball and only got 1 out b/c of it.

Chisox003
06-21-2005, 06:42 PM
I think the point that most of us who are "defending"Crede are making is this:

Defense is a major key and Joe plays 3rd about as well as anyone. So, where can you find a 3rd baseman on par with Joe defensively who puts up bigger numbers for less than $10MM? I don't think you can. And if you're going to spend $10MM to upgrade this team, I think it could be better spent elsewhere.

A better question is who is this third baseman shooter has in mind that can run and bunt well?

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 06:43 PM
The data I showed you is relevent. The longer a player plays, the more relavent his numbers become.

It's like GPS before they unscrambled the signal. It used to be something like up to 30 meters off for security purposes. If you wanted to know exactly where you were, you could take a running median of the changing values for about an hour and get that rate of error down to a few feet. The "noise" will cancel itself out while the "signal" remains constant.

My whole point is there are a ton of factors that simply cannot be measured by hard stats, therefore these stats are not relevant in the sense that they are not showing you nearly enough of the picture needed to make an accurate conclusion.

I think we have gotten to the point where we'll have to agree to disagree b/c no one is going to convince me that defensive stats mean anything and I am not going to convince you that they are rather pointless.

TaylorStSox
06-21-2005, 06:45 PM
I agree with that opinion, but many of Crede's errors are on elementary plays where he throws the ball away or just failed to field a routine grounder to him.

And let us not forget that he has numerous errors that were not scored as such. Ironically, what Crede successfully catches are breaks from the official scorers.

Remember when I challenged you do give evidence of Crede's "errors?" Why didn't you respond then? Keep recycling the same crap. 95% of this board can see, with their own eyes, that Crede's a hell of a defensive 3rd baseman. You're act is tired. Frankly, with respect, you have no freakin clue what in the hell you're talking about. [/rant]

Chisox003
06-21-2005, 06:47 PM
Remember when I challenged you do give evidence of Crede's "errors?" Why didn't you respond then? Keep recycling the same crap. 95% of this board can see, with their own eyes, that Crede's a hell of a defensive 3rd baseman. You're act is tired. Frankly, with respect, you have no freakin clue what in the hell you're talking about. [/rant]

Crede is a very good third baseman, and trying to get a better third baseman strictly for offensive "numbers" just doesnt make sense to me

Shoota says crede doesnt fit because he cant "run or bunt", yet this team's defense is just as strong a point to their success as any...

He just doesnt make sense

TaylorStSox
06-21-2005, 06:47 PM
Here's (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=50844&highlight=fojc)the thread if you want to man up and answer the questions now.

shoota
06-21-2005, 07:04 PM
Here's (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=50844&highlight=fojc)the thread if you want to man up and answer the questions now.

That was a great thread. I'm touched that you remembered it.

shoota
06-21-2005, 07:06 PM
OK, find me a guy who hits .270, hits 20 homers and drives in 50-70 and plays at the same level defensively as Crede and doesn't make $10MM a year. I'll be waiting.

Joe Randa makes $2.15 million this season on an expiring contract. The Sox would only have to pay a little more than half of that since the season is near half over. That's a lot less than $10 million a year.

shoota
06-21-2005, 07:07 PM
Remember when I challenged you do give evidence of Crede's "errors?" Why didn't you respond then? Keep recycling the same crap. 95% of this board can see, with their own eyes, that Crede's a hell of a defensive 3rd baseman. You're act is tired. Frankly, with respect, you have no freakin clue what in the hell you're talking about. [/rant]

I'm so smart, I often teach myself new things. But that's neither here nor there. I'll be back later tonight to give this thread my fullest attention.

Chisox003
06-21-2005, 07:11 PM
Joe Randa makes $2.15 million this season on an expiring contract. The Sox would only have to pay a little more than half of that since the season is near half over. That's a lot less than $10 million a year.

Can he bunt? Na

Can he run? Na

There goes 2 of your 3 reasons for not liking Crede......

Next

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 07:12 PM
Joe Randa makes $2.15 million this season on an expiring contract. The Sox would only have to pay a little more than half of that since the season is near half over. That's a lot less than $10 million a year.

Defensive ability?

aka range.

fquaye149
06-21-2005, 07:14 PM
No one seems to hit as many as he does, and he is currently our leading RBI producer. He has almost double Crede's RBI numbers (52 vs. 27 RBIs.). The only starter with less RBIs is Scott Podsednik, and he isn't expected to get them. AJ has an equal number as Crede, but did it in less games as he has Widger taking up a start every few games. AJ also was playing injured for a period.

He gets more hate than anyone. Crede sucks, he is an automatic out. When ever a rally is going, expect it to end when this 2nd coming of Royce Clayton comes up to bat. Crede SUCKS!!! There I stated the obvious. When will the rest of the Sox fans out there notice the obvious and begin to realize that our most pressing offensive need is 3rd base? Crede is nothing more than a AAAA player. I've said it once and I'll say it again. WHY DO PEOPLE DEFEND THIS LOSER????? I want to see Crede suceed as it owuld be good for the Sox, but that's just not happening and we need an alternative.

crede hits 8th or 9th, konerko hits 4th. let's compare GIDP numbers. I'm not defending Crede, but look at things rationally.

scottjanssens
06-21-2005, 07:15 PM
My whole point is there are a ton of factors that simply cannot be measured by hard stats, therefore these stats are not relevant in the sense that they are not showing you nearly enough of the picture needed to make an accurate conclusion.

I think we have gotten to the point where we'll have to agree to disagree b/c no one is going to convince me that defensive stats mean anything and I am not going to convince you that they are rather pointless.

I never expected to change your mind. I genuinely enjoy the debate. That's were new ideas and refinements come from.

ilsox7
06-21-2005, 07:25 PM
I never expected to change your mind. I genuinely enjoy the debate. That's were new ideas and refinements come from.

That's cool. Some people Round Here get bent out of shape over debates, which is too bad.

beckett21
06-21-2005, 08:03 PM
Joe Randa makes $2.15 million this season on an expiring contract. The Sox would only have to pay a little more than half of that since the season is near half over. That's a lot less than $10 million a year.

Joe Randa sucks. End of discussion. Who needs stats? :redneck

This has been said a million and one times here, but change for the sake of change is not always a good thing. Trust me, I am FAR from a Crede supporter. Frankly, he drives me crazy. When he comes to the plate, I hit the bathroom or the concession stand--I can't bear to watch.

All that said, Joe Randa is not the answer IMO. Give me Eric Chavez, or give me Joe Crede. Randa is a downgrade. No sense in tinkering unless it is a DEFINITIVE upgrade. Unless I'm really missing something, Randa is no All-Star. My rant is not so much an endorsement of Crede as it is a lack of faith in Randa. I must be blind because I cannot see how he would make this team better.

JMO. :D:

The Dude
06-22-2005, 02:09 AM
Who said it on Cold Pizza exactly?

Not sure, one of their baseball insiders. Not a Woody or Skip. I'm not a regular viewer of the show but saw Crede on TV as I was flipping. I had to take a double shot at the screen when I actually saw a segment dedicated to Crede.

Realist
06-22-2005, 03:59 AM
Yay! ... a "bench or trade Crede thread! I suppose that means he's gonna be the guy to win the game for us tonite.

Joe Crede - My PTC for tonite's game.

Oh well. I was wrong. Garland got it.

Joe was only 2 for 3 with an RBI and a run scored. Oh, and he played some real solid defense on a few pretty tough plays too. Crede sucks.

shoota
06-22-2005, 04:06 AM
What's with the belief that trading Crede will hurt team chemistry? That is crap. According to last year's article on her, Crede keeps to herself and rarely talks to teammates. Judging from what I've seen, I believe that. Any removal of Crede will only help team chemistry because her replacement will actually communicate with his teammates.

Crede is a :dtroll: in the clubhouse of the White Sox.

Ozuna should be starting at third base until Randa passes his physical.

Realist
06-22-2005, 04:08 AM
ME -->:pee http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/image.php?u=2019&type=profile&dateline=1102794074<-- Crede Haters

shoota
06-22-2005, 04:21 AM
Does Crede have any minor league options left?

Ol' No. 2
06-22-2005, 10:01 AM
What's with the belief that trading Crede will hurt team chemistry? That is crap. According to last year's article on her, Crede keeps to herself and rarely talks to teammates. Judging from what I've seen, I believe that. Any removal of Crede will only help team chemistry because her replacement will actually communicate with his teammates.

Crede is a :dtroll: in the clubhouse of the White Sox.

Ozuna should be starting at third base until Randa passes his physical.Your act is getting really, really :dtroll:-like.

ilsox7
06-22-2005, 10:38 AM
Your act is getting really, really :dtroll:-like.

Seriously.

davenicholson
06-22-2005, 11:36 AM
Wow. Someone actually doesn't know who 50 Cent is. That's weird.

But he and The Game are rappers.
Thanks, Somebody. That explains why I've never heard of him/them!

TaylorStSox
06-22-2005, 04:22 PM
What's with the belief that trading Crede will hurt team chemistry? That is crap. According to last year's article on her, Crede keeps to herself and rarely talks to teammates. Judging from what I've seen, I believe that. Any removal of Crede will only help team chemistry because her replacement will actually communicate with his teammates.

Crede is a :dtroll: in the clubhouse of the White Sox.

Ozuna should be starting at third base until Randa passes his physical.

Nice rebuttal. You really are a troll.

Chisox003
06-22-2005, 04:24 PM
What's with the belief that trading Crede will hurt team chemistry? That is crap. According to last year's article on her, Crede keeps to herself and rarely talks to teammates. Judging from what I've seen, I believe that. Any removal of Crede will only help team chemistry because her replacement will actually communicate with his teammates.

Crede is a :dtroll: in the clubhouse of the White Sox.

Ozuna should be starting at third base until Randa passes his physical.

Wow. :dtroll: