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View Full Version : Williams 'not happy' with The Duke


Lip Man 1
06-19-2005, 11:07 PM
From the Tribune web site tonight:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-050619soxbits,1,327993.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

You may see a move at the trade deadline if Brandon struggles.

We'll see...

Lip

Unregistered
06-19-2005, 11:16 PM
Not sure what I'd rather have: a trade of a few good prospects for a rent-a-starter or a kid with a 5.50 ERA in AAA as our #5.

Having a hole in our 5-spot is one of the things that bit us hard the last few years, it would hurt to go back there.

ND_Sox_Fan
06-19-2005, 11:17 PM
Interesting ... I have a feeling that this will be cranking up Rumor Mill.

I hope that Brandon is the guy who can take this roll, if Hernandez is really hurt.

21whitesoxway
06-19-2005, 11:18 PM
From the Tribune web site tonight:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-050619soxbits,1,327993.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

You may see a move at the trade deadline if Brandon struggles.

We'll see...

Lip
copy and paste please.:wink:

ilsox7
06-19-2005, 11:19 PM
Not sure what I'd rather have: a trade of a few good prospects for a rent-a-starter or a kid with a 5.50 ERA in AAA as our #5.

Having a hole in our 5-spot is one of the things that bit us hard the last few years, it would hurt to go back there.

I think KW will see how BMac throws over the next 3 starts. If it's encouraging and we still carry a 7+ game lead into late July, I bet we stick with the kid. If it's not so good, we may see KW make a move to at least get a serviceable #5 guy, which wouldn't cost a ton. Or maybe, b/c he is KW, he trades the farm for another top of the line starter, which is fine by me.

MRKARNO
06-19-2005, 11:20 PM
It sounds like El Duque is going to miss a few more than just 2 starts this time, but time will tell with an injury like this.

Chisox003
06-19-2005, 11:21 PM
Not sure what I'd rather have: a trade of a few good prospects for a rent-a-starter or a kid with a 5.50 ERA in AAA as our #5.

Having a hole in our 5-spot is one of the things that bit us hard the last few years, it would hurt to go back there.

Ya this is really bad timing...

We got El Duque to fill that hole and now it's gaping again...

Thank God we have 4 solid guys this year ahead of it, but I dont like this situation at all....

B Mac in the Future=Fine

B Mac right now in the middle of a pennant run= Not good....KW make a move

MeanFish
06-19-2005, 11:27 PM
Ya this is really bad timing...

We got El Duque to fill that hole and now it's gaping again...

Thank God we have 4 solid guys this year ahead of it, but I dont like this situation at all....

B Mac in the Future=Fine

B Mac right now in the middle of a pennant run= Not good....KW make a move

B-Mac deserves the chance, however. If he struggles mightily, we can fill the hole via trade. If he does alright in even half his starts and is in fact a 5th starter with a 5.50 ERA, that's not the worst thing in the world. As long as we can stay out of Arnie Munoz territory with our 5th starter, we'll be fine. We've got four disgustingly solid pitchers and two great signal callers to help him out. I don't think he'll be a world beater, but I think he can keep us in most ballgames. Not every offense is Texas' offense.

Cubbiesuck13
06-19-2005, 11:27 PM
It almost sounds like KW is mad at him and that is why he said B-Mac may stay up if he pitches well. I hope this is just a 'toe-the-line' type of move and talk.

Bisco Stu
06-19-2005, 11:32 PM
BMac could be the Jason Bere of 05...

kevingrt
06-19-2005, 11:33 PM
We all think KW is going to make a trade but what if El Duque just needs some rest for a few starts. Give him like three weeks off and see how he is. I trust B-Mac can be a serviceable #5 starter and keep us in games for four or five outings. Our needs aren't at the bottom end of the rotation right now. If we find out Duque is done for awhile I will change my opinion on that. But Duque is old and needs some rest on a tried arm. Give the guy a break.

I do understand why KW is pissed off though... players should trust coaches and vice versa

ScottsdaleSoxFan
06-19-2005, 11:37 PM
We can't afford to give one of our starters 3 weeks off because he is tired. I'm afraid KW might have to make a trade. I really wanted a big bat too. We all know KW doesn't put up with crap.

Chisox003
06-19-2005, 11:37 PM
We all think KW is going to make a trade but what if El Duque just needs some rest for a few starts. Give him like three weeks off and see how he is. I trust B-Mac can be a serviceable #5 starter and keep us in games for four or five outings. Our needs aren't at the bottom end of the rotation right now. If we find out Duque is done for awhile I will change my opinion on that. But Duque is old and needs some rest on a tried arm. Give the guy a break.

I do understand why KW is pissed off though... players should trust coaches and vice versa

Ya but he's also getting paid 4 million dollars this year to help this team for this exact reason: To get to and succeed during a pennant race...

And with Duque out for some time, our needs are immediatly the bottom end of the rotation....

I trust KW will make a good move though, whether it's trading or not making any move at all...He has assembled the best team in baseball, you know :wink:

ilsox7
06-19-2005, 11:39 PM
We can't afford to give one of our starters 3 weeks off because he is tired. I'm afraid KW might have to make a trade. I really wanted a big bat too. We all know KW doesn't put up with crap.

Where do you put the big bat though? There really isn't a place for one unless you break-up the starting line-up significantly.

ChiWhiteSox1337
06-19-2005, 11:39 PM
I could see why KW is getting a bit mad. I recall back when the Sox signed El Duque, KW said that El Duque was in top shape, the best physical KW has ever seen from a pitcher.

Edit: I dug up the comments from an earlier post on WSI

"I got the best report on a physical that I've ever received since I've been sitting in this chair," said Williams of Hernandez. "(Trainer) Herm (Schneider) and our doctors feel this guy has a great upside, with strength in his elbow and shoulder.
"The wear and tear is not indicative of a Major League pitcher. The MRI and X-rays are as solid as we have had in a long time. It's just more reason for optimism."
Link to the article (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20041222&content_id=925325&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp)

Banix12
06-19-2005, 11:44 PM
El Duque's ultimate future with this team is in the bullpen. I figured though he would make it through this season as a starter but then get moved into the bullpen next season as a Swingman and McCarthy becomes the #5.

Cubbiesuck13
06-19-2005, 11:46 PM
We can't afford to give one of our starters 3 weeks off because he is tired. I'm afraid KW might have to make a trade. I really wanted a big bat too. We all know KW doesn't put up with crap.

No you are wrong. The best team in baseball CAN afford to have one of our starters rest to make sure he doesn't damage himself/further. The Twins can't afford to give up a starter. If there is a team that can get through this it is the SOX.

iamkoza
06-19-2005, 11:47 PM
Let him sit on the DL until october.

kojak
06-20-2005, 12:05 AM
El Duque was scheduled to pitch at the game I am going to in Oakland on July 2. So I will get to see BMac instead- very cool!

I say let El Duque heal up. We will need him more in October than June...

mmmmmbeeer
06-20-2005, 01:17 AM
If McCarthy gets hammered by KC, it's time for KW to go shopping. We CANNOT rely on El Duque as he's making his second trip to the DL in less than half a season...not to mention that, despite his record, most of his starts have been absolutely ugly. Another strong starter will also allow us to skimp on the pen considering that the majority of our BP innings come on nights that the Cubans pitch.

Lip Man 1
06-20-2005, 01:49 AM
White Sox 21:

Just FYI it is illegal and a violation of copyright laws to post entire stories from different web sites. Other sites do it...WSI doesn't. We like being able to stay up and running. That's why links are posted. Click on the link and it will take you to the site / story.

And now for something completely different.....

There are a few positives out of this Hernandez situation.

To wit:

The Sox now have a lead of 7 1/2 games. Assuming The Duke is gone for a week or ten days or even two or three weeks, the other starters should win enough games to maintain a decent lead for the Sox. It may not (and probably won't) be 7 1/2 games...but I'm confident it won't get lower then 4 1/2.

If things aren't 'kosher' with Hernandez and he's gone for a longer period of time, Williams has the time to look and evaluate the situation. Put it this way....what if this were to happen a week before the trade deadline? Then you have to make 'rushed' decisions about Hernandez, about McCarthy, about any other possible candidates in the minor leagues and about trade possibilities.

PLUS the price of poker (i.e. pitching) goes up astronomically because other teams know the Sox are over the barrel.

This way at least there is time to look and discuss options and do what is best.

I don't want to see The Duke hurting but it could have been a hell of a lot worse for the Sox if the timing was different.

Lip

shoota
06-20-2005, 03:14 AM
El Duque has earned a reputation as a playoff/big game pitcher. Whatever allows him to have that sucess in the most important games, mindset/moxy, something else, is why he needs to be starting for the Sox in the playoffs.

I don't care if he's 40 and had 3 stints on the DL in 2005, El Duque must take the ball in the playoffs, or at least in the World Series. His old body, his tired arm and shoulder will all be meaningless come playoff time, thanks to cortisone. It is a cureall, as long as he hasn't taken too many shots of it in his career.

A man's moxy/pitching strategy/mindset cannot be improved with any shot. But a man's tired, hurt arm can be. I have no problem slotting El Duque behind any of our other four starters for the playoff rotation, but if we need a win in the playoffs when our backs are against the wall, give this man the ball. But we must keep him sharp throughout the playoffs with regular innings. Then when we need to win a big game with our big guns unavailable, we go to El Duque.

Next time he takes the mound, play a little "As Good As I Once Was" by Toby Keith.

[Ozzie], I ain't as good as I once was,
My how the years have flown.
But there was a time, back in my prime,
When I could really hold my own.
So if you want a fight tonight,
Guess those boys don't look all that tough.
I ain't as good as I once was,
But I'm as good, once, as I ever was.

SSN721
06-20-2005, 05:51 AM
El Duque has earned a reputation as a playoff/big game pitcher. Whatever allows him to have that sucess in the most important games, mindset/moxy, something else, is why he needs to be starting for the Sox in the playoffs.

I don't care if he's 40 and had 3 stints on the DL in 2005, El Duque must take the ball in the playoffs, or at least in the World Series. His old body, his tired arm and shoulder will all be meaningless come playoff time, thanks to cortisone. It is a cureall, as long as he hasn't taken too many shots of it in his career.

A man's moxy/pitching strategy/mindset cannot be improved with any shot. But a man's tired, hurt arm can be. I have no problem slotting El Duque behind any of our other four starters for the playoff rotation, but if we need a win in the playoffs when our backs are against the wall, give this man the ball. But we must keep him sharp throughout the playoffs with regular innings. Then when we need to win a big game with our big guns unavailable, we go to El Duque.

Next time he takes the mound, play a little "As Good As I Once Was" by Toby Keith.

[Ozzie], I ain't as good as I once was,
My how the years have flown.
But there was a time, back in my prime,
When I could really hold my own.
So if you want a fight tonight,
Guess those boys don't look all that tough.
I ain't as good as I once was,
But I'm as good, once, as I ever was.

I have to agree with you here. El Duque has consistently proven he is the man you want taking the mound in big games. I want to make sure that the team does whatever is necessary to make sure he is at full strength when the playoffs start. He must be starting when the playoffs start. This guy is money in the postseason.

Iguana775
06-20-2005, 07:11 AM
White Sox 21:

Just FYI it is illegal and a violation of copyright laws to post entire stories from different web sites. Other sites do it...WSI doesn't. We like being able to stay up and running. That's why links are posted. Click on the link and it will take you to the site / story.

And now for something completely different.....

There are a few positives out of this Hernandez situation.

To wit:

The Sox now have a lead of 7 1/2 games. Assuming The Duke is gone for a week or ten days or even two or three weeks, the other starters should win enough games to maintain a decent lead for the Sox. It may not (and probably won't) be 7 1/2 games...but I'm confident it won't get lower then 4 1/2.

If things aren't 'kosher' with Hernandez and he's gone for a longer period of time, Williams has the time to look and evaluate the situation. Put it this way....what if this were to happen a week before the trade deadline? Then you have to make 'rushed' decisions about Hernandez, about McCarthy, about any other possible candidates in the minor leagues and about trade possibilities.

PLUS the price of poker (i.e. pitching) goes up astronomically because other teams know the Sox are over the barrel.

This way at least there is time to look and discuss options and do what is best.

I don't want to see The Duke hurting but it could have been a hell of a lot worse for the Sox if the timing was different.

Lip

You can still post some highlights.

Mohoney
06-20-2005, 08:35 AM
I really don't get it. People crucify a guy that's 7-2, and yet are absolutely fawning over Joe Crede.

The guy has blown the Twins away twice already this year.

Give the guy a break is right.

ChicagoHoosier
06-20-2005, 09:09 AM
I also though, as one poster did, about asking the question of using El Duque in the bullpen if B-Mac does pitch well. It would allow his arm to not get taxed as hard the rest of the season, then have him fresh and ready to go for a hopeful division title race at the end of the year.

Imagine when we're all getting frustrated about whether Cotts or Viz will pitch in the 5th or 6th inning when our starter gets in trouble, instead bringing out El Duque to mow these guys down and let Hermy finish the game?

Is this idea nuts?

34 Inch Stick
06-20-2005, 10:22 AM
I really don't get it. People crucify a guy that's 7-2, and yet are absolutely fawning over Joe Crede.

The guy has blown the Twins away twice already this year.

Give the guy a break is right.

I'm with you on this. The Sox ANTICIPATED that El Duque would have some down time during this year. KW is trying to light a little fire under his butt on this but he knew full well that El Duque was not going to be in the rotation the entire year.

He was brought here to be a stretch drive pitcher. As long as El Duque is in the rotation from August on, I don't care how much he pitches over the next month. In fact, I would be willing to shut him down for four weeks just to see him come back healthy in crunch time.

Flight #24
06-20-2005, 10:28 AM
El Duque's ultimate future with this team is in the bullpen. I figured though he would make it through this season as a starter but then get moved into the bullpen next season as a Swingman and McCarthy becomes the #5.

IMO a guy who gets "tired shoulder" is not a good fit for the bullpen. While the total pitchcount would be down, he'd be pitching much more frequently. That doesn't bode well for his "tightness". Over a short stretch, that could work (i.e. couple of weeks, maybe the playoffs), but not over more than a couple or weeks.

samram
06-20-2005, 10:36 AM
I'm with you on this. The Sox ANTICIPATED that El Duque would have some down time during this year. KW is trying to light a little fire under his butt on this but he knew full well that El Duque was not going to be in the rotation the entire year.

He was brought here to be a stretch drive pitcher. As long as El Duque is in the rotation from August on, I don't care how much he pitches over the next month. In fact, I would be willing to shut him down for four weeks just to see him come back healthy in crunch time.

That would be fine with me too. He was the key guy in getting NY over the hump last season, going 8-1 or sometihng like that in August and early September. Actually, he was the only starter they had that was any good for about two months. He'll come through when the Sox need him in September and October.

LVSoxFan
06-20-2005, 10:49 AM
Lord oh lord I don't even want to think about having a 5th starter hole again--the ghost of Arnie Munoz is calling...

People here have been saying since the get-go that B-Mac is a 5th starter waiting to happen. Why? He had a great spring training, and he's started two games for us. The first at Wrigley he was excellent--although those guys were hitting that ball, which is why Ozzie pulled him and let somebody else close it.

The second start he got absolutely shelled, looking like, well, Arnie Munoz. So I'm unclear where people are getting the idea that he can just step right into our starting rotation, no problem.

So let's not forget the words about how if it ain't broke...

Granted, El Duque has had some messy starts and takes forever to pitch. He's feast or famine. But KW must have known that going in (to signing him). What's interesting about the whole thing is KW's going public--he's firing some kind of warning shot. Not sure what his goal is, but for him to speak out like that is unusual... and noteworthy.

My guess is that he and Ozzie are getting pissed off at Duque's work ethic--and if he doesn't start bucking up, they'll be saying "See ya!" by the ASB. Just a guess.

dcb33
06-20-2005, 11:00 AM
"This is the big leagues. We are not going to sit around here playing guessing games from week to week."

This sentence explains why the SOX are winners and the Cubs aren't going anywhere. If there's a problem, there's no doubt KW will start wheelin' and dealin' to get someone to do the job instead of making excuses and writhing around like a snail.

:KW
"Get your ass out there and pitch or enjoy life in Cincinnati."

DaleJRFan
06-20-2005, 11:24 AM
So the deal is that we have an aging, tired #4 starter (does Garland even count as a #5 anymore????) and a AAA rookie with a 6 ERA filling in...

Isn't this sort of, in a way, comparible to the last few seasons (with the glaring exception that #1 thru #4 are considerably better)... questions at the bottom of the rotation??

I don't want to see anymore of this "2 iffy 4-run, 5-inning outings then a 2 week stint on the DL" from Hernandez. I agree with the majority of the posters here. Brandon deserves a shot. 2 starts in two of the better hitters' parks isn't fair enough, give him 3 or 4 good starts. If he can't get it done, KW's gotta go get another arm for the big stretch. Brandon will be a star, eventually. But this is OUR year. We can't risk it.

Lip Man 1
06-20-2005, 12:10 PM
Iguana:

No offense but WHY should I have to take the time to do that? Simply click on the provided link and you can read it, in the original context for yourself.

My interpretation of 'highlights' may not be the same as yours and I might miss something that you consider important.

Lip

Ol' No. 2
06-20-2005, 12:39 PM
From the Tribune web site tonight:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-050619soxbits,1,327993.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

You may see a move at the trade deadline if Brandon struggles.

We'll see...

LipThe way I read it, KW is PO'ed mostly because Hernandez hasn't been up-front about his condition. He's not unhappy with his pitching. Hernandez is a thoroughbred, not a plow-horse. From the beginning I think most people knew that Hernandez shouldn't be throwing more than 150 innings if they wanted him healthy for post-season. The Yankees have used this tactic for years...they stash pitchers on the DL for extended periods so as to have them fresh for the post-season.

fox2
06-20-2005, 12:49 PM
Does anyone else think Neal Cotts ought to be given a chance to start if McCarthy flops? in his last 10 games he's pitched 12.2 innings and given up 1 ER and struck out 15. Of course he hasn't gone more than 2 innings in any of the games, but he's looked pretty good lately.

Frater Perdurabo
06-20-2005, 12:53 PM
Does anyone else think Neal Cotts ought to be given a chance to start if McCarthy flops? in his last 10 games he's pitched 12.2 innings and given up 1 ER and struck out 15. Of course he hasn't gone more than 2 innings in any of the games, but he's looked pretty good lately.

No. Keep Cotts in the role in which he is excelling....

LVSoxFan
06-20-2005, 12:53 PM
Didn't they try to start Cotts a couple of times last year? :o:

Foulke You
06-20-2005, 01:02 PM
The way I read it, KW is PO'ed mostly because Hernandez hasn't been up-front about his condition. He's not unhappy with his pitching. Hernandez is a thoroughbred, not a plow-horse. From the beginning I think most people knew that Hernandez shouldn't be throwing more than 150 innings if they wanted him healthy for post-season. The Yankees have used this tactic for years...they stash pitchers on the DL for extended periods so as to have them fresh for the post-season.
Exactly. We all knew El Duque wasn't going to be an innings eater for us this year. I don't see why everyone is getting all bent out of shape. I figure El Duque will miss a month or so and hopefully be ready for the stretch drive.