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View Full Version : FOJC rejoice!!! Ozzie thinks Crede will be "tremendous"


SoxxoS
06-16-2005, 11:46 AM
I realize this is kind of beating a dead horse, but it Ozzie is going to say dumb things about a player that is regressing then he should get called on it.

I am so happy the Scott Rolen we all know is in him is coming out...next year.

Here (http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/whitesox.asp?id=62181)

Put another way, Joe Crede is next yearís Jon Garland.

WOOOO!!!!!

Iguana775
06-16-2005, 11:53 AM
Wouldnt that be nice.

kittle42
06-16-2005, 11:57 AM
Crede is more like next year's Gary Scott.

1951Campbell
06-16-2005, 12:07 PM
I admire Ozzie for talking the kid up, but really, I'd just like the guy to hit .270 and not drop anything. That seems to be Crede's ceiling at this point.

eriqjaffe
06-16-2005, 12:11 PM
Unfortunately, Joe Crede is simply this year's Joe Crede.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-16-2005, 12:16 PM
:crede
"Thank God Tadahito Iguchi plays second base and not third base!"

:weewillie
"Just my dumb luck Tadahito Iguchi plays second base and not third base!"

Unregistered
06-16-2005, 12:26 PM
I mentioned this in another thread, but this story had such a stupid misprint in the Trib, it had me laughing:


Crede has been under scrutiny because of his .236 batting average. But Crede is tied for third on the Sox with nine home runs, posted a 14-game hitting streak earlier this year and has committed only two errors in his last 59 games.

"Not too many people can do what Joe does," Crede said. "Maybe our expectations about Joe are too high. I said that last year and in the off-season.

"Maybe we think he has the potential to hit 30 home runs, drive in 100 runs and hit .280 or .290. We expect and want that, but maybe the expectation is too high."

They obviously misquoted - I'm sure those words belonged to Ozzie - but I crack up trying to picture Crede talking about himself in EXTREME third person. :D:

:crede
"Leave Joe alone - he's trying!"

Jjav829
06-16-2005, 12:30 PM
Joe Crede:

April: .304/.368/.456/.824
May: .155/.211/.286/.497
June: .306/.405/.694/1.099

I'm as big a fan of the idea of bringing Eric Chavez here as anyone, but if that's not going to happen, or another significant upgrade can't be made, I'm comfortable with giving Crede more time.

I still think he will develop into a solid player. He may never hit that upper-tier of 3B, but I think he'll be a solid everyday player.

Risk
06-16-2005, 12:34 PM
Joe Crede:

April: .304/.368/.456/.824
May: .155/.211/.286/.497
June: .306/.405/.694/1.099

I'm as big a fan of the idea of bringing Eric Chavez here as anyone, but if that's not going to happen, or another significant upgrade can't be made, I'm comfortable with giving Crede more time.

I still think he will develop into a solid player. He may never hit that upper-tier of 3B, but I think he'll be a solid everyday player.

I agree. For the time being I can tolerate his great fielding and "credeiocre" hitting seeing that it's doubtful there is going to be any upgrades available.

Risk

hawkjt
06-16-2005, 01:00 PM
I agree with ozzie. Joe is one hit every two weeks away from hitting .272 right now. That is a thin line. I for one thinks that he can get that extra hit every two weeks going forward as he has proven to be a second half hitter.

He is on track for 23 hrs,70 rbis and a gold glove. He is our 8th hitter - so is .270 23 and 70 with a gold glove acceptable to the mob?

RallyBowl
06-16-2005, 01:03 PM
I realize this is kind of beating a dead horse, but it Ozzie is going to say dumb things about a player that is regressing then he should get called on it.

I am so happy the Scott Rolen we all know is in him is coming out...next year.

Here (http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/whitesox.asp?id=62181)



WOOOO!!!!!
Ozzie is not saying anything dumb, he is merely just sticking by one of his guys. Every year throughout the bigs we see many guys who have bad first halves, only to turn it up a few notches. hopefully, Joe C. can be one of those guys this year. One thing is for certain- no one can do it with a manager who is bad mouthing them and telling everyone how much they suck. I understand the constant frustration with Joe- he could be one of the best corners in the league,but he has not lived up to the potential-yet. This may sound f'd up, but learn a lesson from Ozzie and have some patience, and show some support for the kid.

wdelaney72
06-16-2005, 01:36 PM
I admire Ozzie for talking the kid up, but really, I'd just like the guy to hit .270 and not drop anything. That seems to be Crede's ceiling at this point.

Hitting .270, what a concept. It would be nice if Konerko would hit .270, but that's not happening either. The difference being Konerko makes over $8 million per year. For that kind of money, I want more consistency. I'm tired of these ridiculous slumps.

JC takes care of his business in the field. He's not the problem with this offense.

elrod
06-16-2005, 01:37 PM
I mentioned this in another thread, but this story had such a stupid misprint in the Trib, it had me laughing:




They obviously misquoted - I'm sure those words belonged to Ozzie - but I crack up trying to picture Crede talking about himself in EXTREME third person. :D:

:crede
"Leave Joe alone - he's trying!"
LOL!!! That's just hilarious.

elrod
06-16-2005, 01:41 PM
Hitting .270, what a concept. It would be nice if Konerko would hit .270, but that's not happening either. The difference being Konerko makes over $8 million per year. For that kind of money, I want more consistency. I'm tired of these ridiculous slumps.

JC takes care of his business in the field. He's not the problem with this offense.

Except Konerko is steadily progressing toward .270. He's hitting .362 in June and has raised his average from .194 to .251. His OPS in June is 1.093. He had a slow start but the team did just fine with him struggling. Now he's picking up the slack as other guys like Iguchi start scuffling.

34 Inch Stick
06-16-2005, 02:07 PM
Joe Crede will be this team's third baseman until he reaches free agency. He is cheap and adequate, which is the recipe for a Reinsdorf player. At the point of FA KW will not negotiate with Boras, Fields will be brought up and we will have a new whipping boy.

Unregistered
06-16-2005, 02:39 PM
Joe Crede will be this team's third baseman until he reaches free agency. He is cheap and adequate, which is the recipe for a Reinsdorf player. At the point of FA KW will not negotiate with Boras, Fields will be brought up and we will have a new whipping boy.
Isn't he a Free Agent after this season?

doublem23
06-16-2005, 03:11 PM
Isn't he a Free Agent after this season?

I think he is, and as far as I know, his agent is...

:borass:

Jjav829
06-16-2005, 04:16 PM
Isn't he a Free Agent after this season?

No, Crede still has two more years of arbitration eligibility. This past offseason was the first time he was arbitration eligible. He will be a free agent after the 2007 season.

wxkid23
06-16-2005, 05:47 PM
I agree on giving Crede a bit more time, especially with no upgrades really available for trade. Outside of May, which was a horrible month hitting wise for him, he has been hitting okay.

PAPChiSox729
06-16-2005, 06:04 PM
I agree on giving Crede a bit more time, especially with no upgrades really available for trade. Outside of May, which was a horrible month hitting wise for him, he has been hitting okay.

I agree. Really, most of the upgrades over Crede are not worth the price they carry. And those other cheaper 'upgrades' (Randa, Feliz) really aren't too much of an overall upgrade.

VivaOzzie
06-16-2005, 06:09 PM
Awesome. As much as I like the idea of having someone like Chavez on the Sox, I really dont want to let go of Crede. Yes, he doesnt hit for an outstanding average, but he does have some power. And his glove is SOLID. When the ball is hit to third, even bunted down the line, Im not one bit nervous, and I cant wait to see the great play Crede will make.

More importantly, he adds to the TEAM. None of us knows what goes on in the clubhouse. And right now our team is so together its sweet. We dont have the best players in the league, but they mesh well with each other. And maybe a lot of players would be let down if Crede was to leave. We have a good thing going here, and I dont want it to get messed up!!

Chisox003
06-16-2005, 06:16 PM
Hitting .270, what a concept. It would be nice if Konerko would hit .270, but that's not happening either. The difference being Konerko makes over $8 million per year. For that kind of money, I want more consistency. I'm tired of these ridiculous slumps.

JC takes care of his business in the field. He's not the problem with this offense.

Youre tired of ridiculous slumps, and Im tired of dumb comments such as yours on this board...

Check what Konerko's been doing lately, especiall the month of June

"For that kind of money, I want more consistency." Ohhh, YOU want more consistency....In that case, yes SIR!

Please :rolleyes:

Jurr
06-16-2005, 06:27 PM
Youre tired of ridiculous slumps, and Im tired of dumb comments such as yours on this board...

Check what Konerko's been doing lately, especiall the month of June

"For that kind of money, I want more consistency." Ohhh, YOU want more consistency....In that case, yes SIR!

Please :rolleyes:
Begin Part 240 of the f'n WSI Paul Konerko Schism.

throwsoftjax
06-16-2005, 07:16 PM
I'm so tired of you guys bringing this up all the time. Yeah so Crede is a warm weather player. It happens. He's shown that he is getting better and better. His avg at the end of last year was .239 which is worse than it is now.

He's a dang good fielder and for that I'm happy. He has 0 errors so far this year. Yeah 0 that'd damn good considering Uribe has 8, Iguchi has 5, and Konerko has 2.

So stop dissing on him for his hitting and be happy he's the best every day inf we have!!

Before ya'll accuse me of being a newbie i'm not. I'm maggliosfan09. I got a new name for obvious reasons.

shoota
06-16-2005, 07:22 PM
I'm so tired of you guys bringing this up all the time. Yeah so Crede is a warm weather player. It happens. He's shown that he is getting better and better. His avg at the end of last year was .239 which is worse than it is now.

He's a dang good fielder and for that I'm happy. He has 0 errors so far this year. Yeah 0 that'd damn good considering Uribe has 8, Iguchi has 5, and Konerko has 2.

So stop dissing on him for his hitting and be happy he's the best every day inf we have!!

Before ya'll accuse me of being a newbie i'm not. I'm maggliosfan09. I got a new name for obvious reasons.

0 errors? Whatever noob. Crede has 4 official errors on the season, not counting his double play muff from last night or any of the other non-official errors he's guilty of either.

And Uribe is a much better defensive player than Crede. n00b.

Jurr
06-16-2005, 07:26 PM
I'm so tired of you guys bringing this up all the time. Yeah so Crede is a warm weather player. It happens. He's shown that he is getting better and better. His avg at the end of last year was .239 which is worse than it is now.

He's a dang good fielder and for that I'm happy. He has 0 errors so far this year. Yeah 0 that'd damn good considering Uribe has 8, Iguchi has 5, and Konerko has 2.

So stop dissing on him for his hitting and be happy he's the best every day inf we have!!

Before ya'll accuse me of being a newbie i'm not. I'm maggliosfan09. I got a new name for obvious reasons.
Yeah..what did you have as the other name...something like 20 posts?? Noob.

jhill36
06-16-2005, 07:27 PM
Just seems like another pointless Crede bashing thread to me.

throwsoftjax
06-16-2005, 07:28 PM
sorry i didn't know he played ss. i actually have a life and don't sit on my butt watching EVERY game. I didn't know so i didn't even stop to think that it was for a different position. you don't have to be an jerk. i've been here since 2001... i don't know why you're telling ME i'm the newbie... you haven't even been year a whole season yet...


if you don't believe me check... I've been here lots longer than you

Jurr
06-16-2005, 07:30 PM
sorry i didn't know he played ss. i actually have a life and don't sit on my butt watching EVERY game. I didn't know so i didn't even stop to think that it was for a different position. you don't have to be an jerk. i've been here since 2001... i don't know why you're telling ME i'm the newbie... you haven't even been year a whole season yet...


if you don't believe me check... I've been here lots longer than you
Alright...settle down, Francis. We're just having fun with you.

throwsoftjax
06-16-2005, 07:30 PM
Yeah..what did you have as the other name...something like 20 posts?? Noob.

hm between maggliosfan10 and maggliosfan09 i have 168


and 09-09-2001 is my original join date if you don't believe me go check the members list noob

DuckSnort
06-16-2005, 07:36 PM
Oh no, someone with a different opinion about Joe Crede! ATTACK! :rolleyes: Calm down people, what difference does it make if someone was new or not? It really shouldn't.

So back on track of the convo. We're the best team in baseball last time I looked, I don't want to see anyone moved around. :D:

ShoelessJoeS
06-16-2005, 07:40 PM
sorry i didn't know he played ss. i actually have a life and don't sit on my butt watching EVERY game.
did you forget to put this in teal?

throwsoftjax
06-16-2005, 07:42 PM
did you forget to put this in teal?

no i didn't I do actually have a life thank you.

throwsoftjax
06-16-2005, 07:47 PM
i'm not trying to be a witch (i'm a woman thank you) i guess it's comming off like that. I'm not one.

So what I don't have the time EVERY game and didn't know that he had played SS for a game. Because of that I didn't check the stats closer.

Sorry JEEZ don't have a cow because i don't agree with you. I am ALLOWED to have my own opinions. :rolleyes:

White Sox Josh
06-16-2005, 07:57 PM
Maybe he mispoke and was talking about wrong Joe....
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/WhiteSoxJosh/ph_120922.png

shoota
06-16-2005, 07:57 PM
Before this season started, most here said that they will give Crede a couple more months to see if he has turned into a good player. Two months have come and gone and he is the same Crede weíve always known. That was just an excuse used to defend Crede by giving him more time to hold off the Crede bashers. Now that excuse has morphed into, ďWell thereís no better replacement,Ē which is simply not true. You guys need to jump off the Crede bandwagon before it reaches the cliff.

Sorry friends, this isnít the year to have tryouts at any position. The Sox have a chance to obtain great success for the city this year, and Iím simply not interested in risking that so Crede has a 5th season to see if he can become the next Jon Garlandóan analogy that doesnít even make sense.

This is the major leagues. Win or go to Tampa Bay. If a manager is talking about his player saying that the expectations were too high for him, that means the player is failing. I refuse to lower expectations because a player cannot do his job and reach that goal.

shoota
06-16-2005, 08:02 PM
So back on track of the convo. We're the best team in baseball last time I looked, I don't want to see anyone moved around. :D:

If being the best team in baseball on June 16th was a guarantee to win the World Series, I'd agree with you, but since it isn't, I don't.

I really fear Crede at bats in the playoffs. Good pitchers + detailed scouting report of Crede = outmatched. Or to be more specific, even more outmatched than usual.

ShoelessJoeS
06-16-2005, 08:05 PM
If being the best team in baseball on June 16th was a guarantee to win the World Series, I'd agree with you, but since it isn't, I don't.

I really fear Crede at bats in the playoffs. Good pitchers + detailed scouting report of Crede = outmatched. Or to be more specific, even more outmatched than usual.
well what do you expect the sox to do since a big aquisition like chavez is unattainable, bring up fields? i dont think so...right now crede is playing well and has superb defense at third. just watch a game where ozuna plays at third and tell me if credes not the guy for us...unless we can get a chavez type player, which isnt going to happen

shoota
06-16-2005, 08:06 PM
i'm not trying to be a witch (i'm a woman thank you) i guess it's comming off like that. I'm not one.

So what I don't have the time EVERY game and didn't know that he had played SS for a game. Because of that I didn't check the stats closer.

Sorry JEEZ don't have a cow because i don't agree with you. I am ALLOWED to have my own opinions. :rolleyes:

I hope I didn't come off as a bad guy. I was trying to be funny, not mean. Anyway, GO SOX! :gulp:

throwsoftjax
06-16-2005, 08:06 PM
Before this season started, most here said that they will give Crede a couple more months to see if he has turned into a good player. Two months have come and gone and he is the same Crede weíve always known. That was just an excuse used to defend Crede by giving him more time to hold off the Crede bashers. Now that excuse has morphed into, ďWell thereís no better replacement,Ē which is simply not true. You guys need to jump off the Crede bandwagon before it reaches the cliff.

Sorry friends, this isnít the year to have tryouts at any position. The Sox have a chance to obtain great success for the city this year, and Iím simply not interested in risking that so Crede has a 5th season to see if he can become the next Jon Garlandóan analogy that doesnít even make sense.

This is the major leagues. Win or go to Tampa Bay. If a manager is talking about his player saying that the expectations were too high for him, that means the player is failing. I refuse to lower expectations because a player cannot do his job and reach that goal.




Crede always has been a warm weather player. Takes him more than two months to get warmed up and good. You should know from experience that he does this. Obviously you still are a noob because you don't realize this.

Really... who are you going to put there in place of him that will do better than his fielding?

How is Crede like having tryouts? He's a good fielder and always has been. His offense always suffers for the first months of the season. If he stays where he is now all season then maybe we'll consider getting off the bandwagon.

See it my way for a minute. One guy not hitting isn't making us suffer that much. If we put someone who is a worse fielder there, they will make more errors therefore giving up more runs. Therefore having him is better.


Edited because parts came off mean and i didn't mean to be mean they just sounded that way after i reread it after I posted and i'm sorry

VivaOzzie
06-16-2005, 08:06 PM
And Uribe is a much better defensive player than Crede. n00b.

Uribe is way more fun to watch and he is a great shortstop. But Crede is better at D. (and it usually goes unnoticed)

throwsoftjax
06-16-2005, 08:07 PM
If being the best team in baseball on June 16th was a guarantee to win the World Series, I'd agree with you, but since it isn't, I don't.

I really fear Crede at bats in the playoffs. Good pitchers + detailed scouting report of Crede = outmatched. Or to be more specific, even more outmatched than usual.

I wouldn't fear him. He seems to be hot come september from what i remember.

Norberto7
06-16-2005, 08:07 PM
I mentioned this in another thread, but this story had such a stupid misprint in the Trib, it had me laughing:




They obviously misquoted - I'm sure those words belonged to Ozzie - but I crack up trying to picture Crede talking about himself in EXTREME third person. :D:

:crede
"Leave Joe alone - he's trying!"


:rolling:

shoota
06-16-2005, 08:08 PM
well what do you expect the sox to do since a big aquisition like chavez is unattainable, bring up fields? i dont think so...right now crede is playing well and has superb defense at third. just watch a game where ozuna plays at third and tell me if credes not the guy for us...unless we can get a chavez type player, which isnt going to happen

Someone suggested Joe Randa a while ago, and I agree with that. Honestly if it's between Crede and Chavez, I choose Crede.

throwsoftjax
06-16-2005, 08:10 PM
Someone suggested Joe Randa a while ago, and I agree with that. Honestly if it's between Crede and Chavez, I choose Crede.

Exactly my point. He's good defensively. They just need to figure out how to spark his offensive capabilities earlier in the season. Make him hit or something through the off season or something.

ShoelessJoeS
06-16-2005, 08:10 PM
Someone suggested Joe Randa a while ago, and I agree with that. Honestly if it's between Crede and Chavez, I choose Crede.
uh oh, dont let jjav see that...trust me :cool:

Jjav829
06-16-2005, 08:11 PM
Someone suggested Joe Randa a while ago, and I agree with that. Honestly if it's between Crede and Chavez, I choose Crede.

So wait, you don't want Crede and you want someone better, but you don't want Eric Chavez? :?: :?: :?:

ShoelessJoeS
06-16-2005, 08:12 PM
So wait, you don't want Crede and you want someone better, but you don't want Eric Chavez? :?: :?: :?:
saw that coming

shoota
06-16-2005, 08:23 PM
So wait, you don't want Crede and you want someone better, but you don't want Eric Chavez? :?: :?: :?:

Yes, for 3 reasons. FWC speculated that Chavez's location near BALCO could be a reason why he is slumping this season. 2) His $11 million per year salary. If he doesn't produce great numbers, Chavez would be an albatross for the next 4? years. If Chavez were bad, he'd hurt the Sox's chances at winning for the life of his contract. 3) I think KW would have to give up too much talent to obtain him, when a Joe Randa could be had for much less talent, salary and risk, IMO.

4) Chavez doesn't know geography. :D:

Jjav829
06-16-2005, 08:31 PM
Yes, for 3 reasons. FWC speculated that Chavez's location near BALCO could be a reason why he is slumping this season. 2) His $11 million per year salary. If he doesn't produce great numbers, Chavez would be an albatross. 3) I think KW would have to give up too much talent to obtain him, when a Joe Randa could be had for much less talent and salary, IMO.

4) Chavez doesn't know geography. :D:

1.) Chavez hasn't "slumped" any worse this season than in previous years. How many times do I have to say this....Eric Chavez always starts off slow! He's hitting .249 with 10 HRs and 38 RBI. Those numbers are only slightly down from his normal numbers at this time of the year. Add 2 or 3 HRs on and he is at where he normal is during this time of the year. 2.) Chavez isn't making $11 million a year. He's making $8.5 million this year and will make $9.5 million the next two years. You want quality? You have to pay the price for it. Otherwise learn to like Joe Crede and stop bitching about his weaknesses. 3.) You want Joe Randa? Fine. Yes, you can get Joe Randa a lot cheaper because Joe Randa isn't nearly as good of a player as Eric Chavez.

shoota
06-16-2005, 08:31 PM
Back to Crede, itís hard to fathom, but his current .241 batting average is worse than it appears. Itís not like he has a productive .241. He doesnít give good at bats. He doesn't battle at the plate. Heís been doing better lately, taking some key walks in tense situations. He still first pitch swings no matter what the game situation, like he always has, and mostly only tries to hit home runs. Heís simply not interested in putting the ball in play or shortening up his home run derby swing.

He has very defensive, 2-strike type swings when he doesnít have 2 strikes on him. He doesnít look for his pitch or have batting patience. He canít hit behind a runner or bunt a man over either. Remember his last two bunt attempts? Popup outs. The man thinks he is a home run hitter. Iíve never seen this guy hit an opposite field home run.

Letís stop calling Joe Crede a Gold Glover. Did you see last nightís potential double play he muffed? He cost more than a few runs last night. So forget the argument that he saves this team more runs with his defense than a good hitting 3bman would with his bat, because a Joe Randa makes that double play.

Crede will never be a GGer. Remember last year when he got numerous balls stuck in his glove? It happened like 4 times in a week! It even got Farmer frustrated on the air! He said something like, ďDude, get a new glove.Ē

Or how about Credeís throws? His throwing form is slop. He often refuses to set his body and throw towards Konerko, rather opting to throw while jump hopping away from him. That movement is only acceptable when he doesnít have time to set and throw. Too often he risks bad throws due to his bad throwing form on plays where he has plenty of time to throw properly. Aramis Ramirez could teach Crede something about fielding.

A big reason why I have long ago given up on Crede and donít think he will ever come close to meeting his expectations is due to his demeanor. He shows weakness in his approach to all parts of the game. Remember that article last year that said how he doesnít talk to anyone on the team? Yeah, this guy has a healthy personality. Heís a weak, introverted, no-hit, overrated glove, 3bman who doesnít possess speed and canít even bunt. I mention his attitude not to insult him but to reason why I donít think he will ever succeed in MLB. And clubhouse chemistry can only get better if heís replaced with a 3bman who actually talks with his teammates.

Jerome
06-16-2005, 08:33 PM
Does his great defense make him an untouchable? I don't belive that our pitching will be as great as it has been and i think that the more offense we can get the better (thank goodness for big frank).

If chavez is availiable i think it would be a deal kw would owe it to the team to look at, although i think BMac is untouchable.

His SLG of .427 for an 8 hitter is good, but then when you see the .308 OBP and .240 average, you see why he's the 8 hitter.

shoota
06-16-2005, 08:54 PM
1.) Chavez hasn't "slumped" any worse this season than in previous years. How many times do I have to say this....Eric Chavez always starts off slow! He's hitting .249 with 10 HRs and 38 RBI. Those numbers are only slightly down from his normal numbers at this time of the year. Add 2 or 3 HRs on and he is at where he normal is during this time of the year. 2.) Chavez isn't making $11 million a year. He's making $8.5 million this year and will make $9.5 million the next two years. You want quality? You have to pay the price for it. Otherwise learn to like Joe Crede and stop bitching about his weaknesses. 3.) You want Joe Randa? Fine. Yes, you can get Joe Randa a lot cheaper because Joe Randa isn't nearly as good of a player as Eric Chavez.

I checked Chavez's stats before I posted that he was in a slump, and I was surprised at his good home run and RBI totals. But when those numbers are tied to his $9 million salary, I don't value them as much.

As you said, Chavez is hitting .249, 10, 38.
Joe Randa is hitting .290, 9, 36 and is making making $2.15 million on what I'm guessing is an expiring contract.

There is no doubting Chavez's GG defense is superior to Joe Randa's. But do to price, both in contract and in talent needed to acquire each 3bman, I would rather have Joe Randa as the Sox's new 3bman.

Jjav829
06-16-2005, 09:16 PM
I checked Chavez's stats before I posted that he was in a slump, and I was surprised at his good home run and RBI totals. But when those numbers are tied to his $9 million salary, I don't value them as much.

As you said, Chavez is hitting .249, 10, 38.
Joe Randa is hitting .290, 9, 36 and is making making $2.15 million on what I'm guessing is an expiring contract.

There is no doubting Chavez's GG defense is superior to Joe Randa's. But do to price, both in contract and in talent needed to acquire each 3bman, I would rather have Joe Randa as the Sox's new 3bman.

That's fine. You can choose which one you want, but don't assume that Randa will continue to put up the same numbers. Randa is a career .286 hitter but his career high in homers is just 16. He hit #9 tonight. He doesn't figure to continue to perform at this pace. Chavez will get his near 30 HRs and drive in around 100 while hitting .275-.280.

I guess it's also a question of the future. I'm not convinced that Randa is even much of an upgrade over Crede. If you go get Randa, it's strictly for this year. Third base then has to be addressed again in the offseason where Randa will be the best available third baseman. Chavez provides a proven 3B entering the peak of his career who can stabilize the position for years.

TaylorStSox
06-16-2005, 09:39 PM
Back to Crede, itís hard to fathom, but his current .241 batting average is worse than it appears. Itís not like he has a productive .241. He doesnít give good at bats. He doesn't battle at the plate. Heís been doing better lately, taking some key walks in tense situations. He still first pitch swings no matter what the game situation, like he always has, and mostly only tries to hit home runs. Heís simply not interested in putting the ball in play or shortening up his home run derby swing.

He has very defensive, 2-strike type swings when he doesnít have 2 strikes on him. He doesnít look for his pitch or have batting patience. He canít hit behind a runner or bunt a man over either. Remember his last two bunt attempts? Popup outs. The man thinks he is a home run hitter. Iíve never seen this guy hit an opposite field home run.

Letís stop calling Joe Crede a Gold Glover. Did you see last nightís potential double play he muffed? He cost more than a few runs last night. So forget the argument that he saves this team more runs with his defense than a good hitting 3bman would with his bat, because a Joe Randa makes that double play.

Crede will never be a GGer. Remember last year when he got numerous balls stuck in his glove? It happened like 4 times in a week! It even got Farmer frustrated on the air! He said something like, ďDude, get a new glove.Ē

Or how about Credeís throws? His throwing form is slop. He often refuses to set his body and throw towards Konerko, rather opting to throw while jump hopping away from him. That movement is only acceptable when he doesnít have time to set and throw. Too often he risks bad throws due to his bad throwing form on plays where he has plenty of time to throw properly. Aramis Ramirez could teach Crede something about fielding.

A big reason why I have long ago given up on Crede and donít think he will never come close to meeting his expectations is due to his demeanor. He shows weakness in his approach to all parts of the game. Remember that article last year that said how he doesnít talk to anyone on the team? Yeah, this guy has a healthy personality. Heís a weak, introverted, no-hit, overrated glove, 3bman who doesnít possess speed and canít even bunt. I mention his attitude not to insult him but to reason why I donít think he will ever succeed in MLB. And clubhouse chemistry can only get better if heís replaced with a 3bman who actually talks with his teammates.


This post illustrates that you know nothing about playing 3rd base. I'll leave it at that.

He did have a miscue last night. How many great plays has he had between that miscue and his last? How many runs did he save? How many errors does he have this season? How many has he had in the last 50 games?

The only thing that Joe Randa gives you is .020 points in BA. I'm not willing to sacrifice any player in this organization for that.

Just for fun........Who's a better defensive 3rd baseman than Joe Crede??? I can name 3 guys off the top of my head.

1) Beltre
2) Rolen
3) Chavez

Cubbiesuck13
06-16-2005, 09:40 PM
1.) Chavez hasn't "slumped" any worse this season than in previous years. How many times do I have to say this....Eric Chavez always starts off slow! He's hitting .249 with 10 HRs and 38 RBI. Those numbers are only slightly down from his normal numbers at this time of the year. Add 2 or 3 HRs on and he is at where he normal is during this time of the year. 2.) Chavez isn't making $11 million a year. He's making $8.5 million this year and will make $9.5 million the next two years. You want quality? You have to pay the price for it. Otherwise learn to like Joe Crede and stop bitching about his weaknesses. 3.) You want Joe Randa? Fine. Yes, you can get Joe Randa a lot cheaper because Joe Randa isn't nearly as good of a player as Eric Chavez.

Why would you want another player who starts off slow? The past few years there were many players who started off slow only to have great numbers at the end of the year. I am tired of players who get those great stats by hitting when the game is out of reach. We need players who are not as prone to long slumps either at the start, middle or end of the season. I will take consistancy in place of better numbers. If Joe Randa is it then so be it. I dunno if he is though. I am fine with Crede and his glove. The one thing I do know is that I HATE that one guy's sig who has Randa in a SOX uni. :chunks

shoota
06-16-2005, 10:36 PM
This post illustrates that you know nothing about playing 3rd base. I'll leave it at that.

No, please illustrate. I'd love to hear.


He did have a miscue last night. How many great plays has he had between that miscue and his last? How many runs did he save? How many errors does he have this season? How many has he had in the last 50 games?


I don't keep a log of all of Crede's unofficial errors--I don't have enough paper--but besides his unofficial error from last night, I can cite a recent Crede error that wasn't scored as one. May 29th game, post #39 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=51116&page=2&pp=30&highlight=chavez).


The only thing that Joe Randa gives you is .020 points in BA. I'm not willing to sacrifice any player in this organization for that.

.020? :kukoo:


Just for fun........Who's a better defensive 3rd baseman than Joe Crede??? I can name 3 guys off the top of my head.

1) Beltre
2) Rolen
3) Chavez

Why quantify only the best defensive 3bman? Why not include offensive skills or ask who are the best 3bman period? Because you know Crede isn't going to sniff anywhere near the top of either of those lists.

But to play along with your best defensive list, I'd take Mora, Alex Rodriguez, Glaus, and Koskie when healthy, in addition to the three you mentioned. I'd probably take more, but I don't follow enough 3bman on a daily basis like I do with Crede.

Just for fun........Who's a better third baseman than Crede?

TaylorStSox
06-16-2005, 11:11 PM
No, please illustrate. I'd love to hear.



I don't keep a log of all of Crede's unofficial errors--I don't have enough paper--but besides his unofficial error from last night, I can cite a recent Crede error that wasn't scored as one. May 29th game, post #39 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=51116&page=2&pp=30&highlight=chavez).



.020? :kukoo:



Why quantify only the best defensive 3bman? Why not include offensive skills or ask who are the best 3bman period? Because you know Crede isn't going to sniff anywhere near the top of either of those lists.

But to play along with your best defensive list, I'd take Mora, Alex Rodriguez, Glaus, and Koskie when healthy, in addition to the three you mentioned. I'd probably take more, but I don't follow enough 3bman on a daily basis like I do with Crede.

Just for fun........Who's a better third baseman than Crede?

Third baseman only set and throw when the ball is to their right. Balls hit to their left bring their momentum to 1st. That makes the throw easier. Crede usually plays close to the line so he doesn't have to go back on many balls. How many errant throws has Crede made this year? He's got a cannon. He tends to aim easy throws, which I don't like, but he gets it done.

He's got excellent footwork. He charges the ball very well. He throws on the run very well. He's a very good decision maker. He makes the throw to the catcher without fear. He turns the double play with the best of them.

As we've gone over many times this year, most of what you call "unofficial errors" aren't errors at all. We've gone over the play where he knocked the ball down, and away from Uribe, many times. You're the only person that call that an "error." Joe did his job.

There are a ton of better offensive 3rd baseman. Alot of them don't have the glove though. Mora? Have you watched him play 3rd, or are you saying that because he hits well? Mora doesn't have the range or the arm that Joe does.

Koskie's an excellent 3rd baseman. I wouldn't say that he's any better than Crede though.

Glaus is extremely overated. He's got a good glove but has no range. He has a good arm, although I wouldn't depend on it.

Crede could learn something about throwing from Ramirez? I haven't seen much of Ramirez since he left the Pirates, but he had one of the most inaccurate arms I've seen. He's eratic at best. He may make an unbelievable play occassionaly, but fails more often.

The Randa comparison is pretty accurate. Randa is going to give you, not .020 but .030 points of extra batting. He's not going to have the power that Joe possesses. He's regressing with the glove as he ages. He's a much better situational hitter but Joe doesn't do poorly with runnders at 3rd and less than 2 outs or moving guys along. They're actually similar players.

Let's say we trade for Randa. We have to give a couple of marginal prospects for him. He's not a huge upgrade over Joe and sacrifices a little defensively. Next year we have to resign him, for more than Joe will make, because there aren't any other choices. Fields hits a little worse than Crede, but at AA. He's not an answer right now. He's probably 2-3 years away.

This isn't even considering clubhouse intangibles. The other players on the team seem to really like Joe and love when he succeeds.

If it aint broke.....

He's not Robin Ventura, but he's miles away from anybody we've had since.

Joe is our stopgap, at least. Now Shoota, I know you have an obsession with Joe. You haven't stopped bashing him since you joined this site. But, deal with it because he's probably going to be here for a little while longer.

throwsoftjax
06-16-2005, 11:23 PM
This post illustrates that you know nothing about playing 3rd base. I'll leave it at that.

He did have a miscue last night. How many great plays has he had between that miscue and his last? How many runs did he save? How many errors does he have this season? How many has he had in the last 50 games?

The only thing that Joe Randa gives you is .020 points in BA. I'm not willing to sacrifice any player in this organization for that.

Just for fun........Who's a better defensive 3rd baseman than Joe Crede??? I can name 3 guys off the top of my head.

1) Beltre
2) Rolen
3) Chavez

I agree. You've never played 3B before. That is obvious. Don't try to lie and say that you have. 3B is pretty much the hardest fielding position of any infielder excluding catchers because they're involved with every pitch. I've played every position and would know.

Don't even start that I don't know what I'm doing because i've played all my life. True i have played softball the last 8 but it's actually harder. You are 30 feet closer than in baseball. The ball comes at you quicker. You are using metal bats as opposed to wood. Fyi the distance to the plate from the mound is 20 ft shorter too.

throwsoftjax
06-16-2005, 11:27 PM
Third baseman only set and throw when the ball is to their right. Balls hit to their left bring their momentum to 1st. That makes the throw easier. Crede usually plays close to the line so he doesn't have to go back on many balls. How many errant throws has Crede made this year? He's got a cannon. He tends to aim easy throws, which I don't like, but he gets it done.

He's got excellent footwork. He charges the ball very well. He throws on the run very well. He's a very good decision maker. He makes the throw to the catcher without fear. He turns the double play with the best of them.

As we've gone over many times this year, most of what you call "unofficial errors" aren't errors at all. We've gone over the play where he knocked the ball down, and away from Uribe, many times. You're the only person that call that an "error." Joe did his job.

There are a ton of better offensive 3rd baseman. Alot of them don't have the glove though. Mora? Have you watched him play 3rd, or are you saying that because he hits well? Mora doesn't have the range or the arm that Joe does.

Koskie's an excellent 3rd baseman. I wouldn't say that he's any better than Crede though.

Glaus is extremely overated. He's got a good glove but has no range. He has a good arm, although I wouldn't depend on it.

Crede could learn something about throwing from Ramirez? I haven't seen much of Ramirez since he left the Pirates, but he had one of the most inaccurate arms I've seen. He's eratic at best. He may make an unbelievable play occassionaly, but fails more often.

The Randa comparison is pretty accurate. Randa is going to give you, not .020 but .030 points of extra batting. He's not going to have the power that Joe possesses. He's regressing with the glove as he ages. He's a much better situational hitter but Joe doesn't do poorly with runnders at 3rd and less than 2 outs or moving guys along. They're actually similar players.

Let's say we trade for Randa. We have to give a couple of marginal prospects for him. He's not a huge upgrade over Joe and sacrifices a little defensively. Next year we have to resign him, for more than Joe will make, because there aren't any other choices. Fields hits a little worse than Crede, but at AA. He's not an answer right now. He's probably 2-3 years away.

This isn't even considering clubhouse intangibles. The other players on the team seem to really like Joe and love when he succeeds.

If it aint broke.....

He's not Robin Ventura, but he's miles away from anybody we've had since.

Joe is our stopgap, at least. Now Shoota, I know you have an obsession with Joe. You haven't stopped bashing him since you joined this site. But, deal with it because he's probably going to be here for a little while longer.

exactly. If a ball is hit to your right you have to field the ball then completely change the way your momentum is going to be able to even attempt to throw to first. It is a hell of a lot harder than it looks.

sorry about the h word

FarWestChicago
06-16-2005, 11:27 PM
I agree. You've never played 3B before. That is obvious. Don't try to lie and say that you have. 3B is pretty much the hardest fielding position of any infielder excluding catchers because they're involved with every pitch. I've played every position and would know.

Don't even start that I don't know what I'm doing because i've played all my life. True i have played softball the last 8 but it's actually harder. You are 30 feet closer than in baseball. The ball comes at you quicker. You are using metal bats as opposed to wood. Fyi the distance to the plate from the mound is 20 ft shorter too.Ummm, was there a point to this post? :?:

throwsoftjax
06-16-2005, 11:30 PM
Ummm, was there a point to this post? :?:

uh yeah 3b is the hardest position obviously...

FarWestChicago
06-16-2005, 11:32 PM
uh yeah 3b is the hardest position obviously...OK, so what did that have to do with the ,oh so tired, debate? Are you with the FOJC or the Haters? I can't keep up with 1,358 redundant Crede threads. :redface:

VivaOzzie
06-16-2005, 11:34 PM
Well, since Im pro-Crede, I hope that KW sticks with his plan of pitching and defense. And I hope he keeps the clubhouse exactly as is. I think he will.


As for

Remember that article last year that said how he doesnít talk to anyone on the team? Yeah, this guy has a healthy personality.

Yup, I fully believe what the media tells me, especially about the White Sox.:?:

and

Aramis Ramirez could teach Crede something about fielding.

Youve got to be kidding me. Career Numbers:

Crede (6 yrs.) .963 Fielding % 39 Errors
Ramirez (8 yrs.) .944 Fielding % 118 Errors

Now unless Crede has around 50 'unofficial' errors, Ill take lessons from Crede...

throwsoftjax
06-16-2005, 11:39 PM
OK, so what did that have to do with the ,oh so tired, debate? Are you with the FOJC or the Haters? I can't keep up with 1,358 redundant Crede threads. :redface:

I'm FOJC

Letís stop calling Joe Crede a Gold Glover. Did you see last nightís potential double play he muffed? He cost more than a few runs last night. So forget the argument that he saves this team more runs with his defense than a good hitting 3bman would with his bat, because a Joe Randa makes that double play.

and then in reply
This post illustrates that you know nothing about playing 3rd base. I'll leave it at that.

He did have a miscue last night. How many great plays has he had between that miscue and his last? How many runs did he save? How many errors does he have this season? How many has he had in the last 50 games?


I agreed because I have played 3rd and know that it is very hard. I was sticking up for Joe because i understand how hard of a position it is and know how often the balls are hit to your right and how hard it is to change directions and throw.

I included the part about softball so shoota wouldn't try and tell me that I didn't know how to play 3B since he has done nothing but give me a hard time about every thing that i say

Jjav829
06-16-2005, 11:40 PM
Just for fun........Who's a better defensive 3rd baseman than Joe Crede??? I can name 3 guys off the top of my head.

1) Beltre
2) Rolen
3) Chavez

Valid point. Those are about the only three you can say are easily better than Crede. There are several others that can be brought up, but none of them is clearly better than Crede. Arod will likely develop into a very good 3B with time, though you can see he isn't very experienced at times. David Wright will enter the discussion eventually. Mike Lowell is a very solid defensive player. He's probably right above Crede. The last name I'd through out there is Hank Blalock, though I haven't seen a ton of Blalock defensively. But from what I've seen, he is worthy of being in this discussion.

FarWestChicago
06-16-2005, 11:45 PM
I'm FOJCThanks for filling me in. I'm neither FOJC or Hater, but I like his glove and I have this boring habit of siding with sane people. In the whole Crede debate the Haters end up looking quite disturbed, which actually pushes me toward the FOJC. :D:

throwsoftjax
06-16-2005, 11:50 PM
Thanks for filling me in. I'm neither FOJC or Hater, but I like his glove and I have this boring habit of siding with sane people. In the whole Crede debate the Haters end up looking quite disturbed, which actually pushes me toward the FOJC. :D:

No problem on the filling you in!! Yay for you maybe being FOJC!!!

clee-hegone
06-17-2005, 01:03 AM
ozzie is talking up crede to maintain his trade value. what do u expect ozzie to do bash this kid until he shoots himself in the head.

throwsoftjax
06-17-2005, 02:32 AM
ozzie is talking up crede to maintain his trade value. what do u expect ozzie to do bash this kid until he shoots himself in the head.\

well jee we know what side you're on. You're the most optimistic person i've ever met! Give the guy a chance!! He gets better as the season goes on!!

And the violence is unnecessary

Jurr
06-17-2005, 10:18 AM
Thanks for filling me in. I'm neither FOJC or Hater, but I like his glove and I have this boring habit of siding with sane people. In the whole Crede debate the Haters end up looking quite disturbed, which actually pushes me toward the FOJC. :D:
It's hard not to have that FOJC tendency when the man makes most plays at third look ridiculously easy.
The Sox had a big problem with third base most of their history. As Bill James says, the Sox spent 58 years (between Willie Kamm and Ventura) looking for a third basemen. the only guys in that time that were even decent were Ward and Melton. After Ventura left, it looked like we were going to be in trouble at the corner for a while, with Perry, Manos, and others. I'm glad we have a vacuum at third. He takes a lot of runs off the board for the other team during the year, and that cannot be overlooked.

hawkjt
06-17-2005, 01:05 PM
Chavez has 11 errors to Joes 4. He has a torn labrum due to horrible throwing mechanics. He has been moved to DH lately cuz of the arm injury.

This is the guy that we want at 9.5milion+ over the next four years on our team that is built around pitching and def?

Joe fits much better in the current plan. He is a lousy 6 hits from hitting .270. He can get hot and be hitting that in a week. Ozzie knows what he has in Joe and I am guessing that Oz is more of an expert than anyone on this board.

BedfordChisox
06-17-2005, 07:02 PM
Good for you, Hawkjt, for bringing some reason to this thread.

In my lifetime, the greatest 3rd baseman I have seen was Brooks Robinson. Brooks was a career .267 hitter. I'm not trying to insinuate that Joe is the next Brooks Robinson, but what I'm trying to say is that offensive production is secondary to fielding at that position.

For those of us who have had to live through Wayne Nordhagen, that Norton guy, and (gulp) Kenny Williams at 3rd base, for the love of God and all that is holy, let's appreciate what we have there today. I, for one, wanted to ship Garland as far away as possible last season. There were a lot of us who felt the same way, as I recall (remember "Judy" Garland?). I don't think it's a stretch to believe that Joe will find his offensive stroke. He's young, and he's a dynamite defensive 3rd baseman. He will only get better.

MisterB
06-17-2005, 07:45 PM
In my lifetime, the greatest 3rd baseman I have seen was Brooks Robinson. Brooks was a career .267 hitter. I'm not trying to insinuate that Joe is the next Brooks Robinson, but what I'm trying to say is that offensive production is secondary to fielding at that position.

Brooks Robinson also played through one of the most pitching-friendly eras since the live ball was introduced, which brought his career BA down quite a bit (and everyone else's as well). The fact is he was a very good hitter for his era in addition to his excellent defense.