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LongLiveFisk
06-13-2005, 03:43 PM
Hey guys and gals,

Although I've been a longtime Sox fan I didn't catch much of this particular season (family issues and other crap that was going on in my 13-year-old life at the time). Can anyone give me some insight as to why this club failed so miserably after that incredible '83 campaign? Was it injuries, or guys just not playing up to their potential?

Thanks! :D:

rdivaldi
06-13-2005, 05:11 PM
Hey guys and gals,

Although I've been a longtime Sox fan I didn't catch much of this particular season (family issues and other crap that was going on in my 13-year-old life at the time). Can anyone give me some insight as to why this club failed so miserably after that incredible '83 campaign? Was it injuries, or guys just not playing up to their potential?

Thanks! :D:

I was only 12 at the time, but I do remember everything going wrong that year. The pitchers and hitters all regressed immensely. But the sluggers on that team were in a season long slump. Kittle batted .215, Luzinski .238, Fisk .231. Harold and Walker were the only 2 guys that showed up in '84. Injuries were not that much of a factor IIRC.

jackbrohamer
06-13-2005, 05:32 PM
In one of the interviews posted here I think Kittle said getting rid of Jerry Koosman after the 1983 season was a factor. IIRC they played a lot of games against Detroit near the start of the season while Detroit was on their way to a 35-5 start, which didn't help.

It's hard to say, they added Seaver and were favorites to finish first but they seemed flat all year. Combined with the Scrubs making the playoffs, it made for a pretty miserable summer for baseball.

LongLiveFisk
06-13-2005, 05:33 PM
I was only 12 at the time, but I do remember everything going wrong that year. The pitchers and hitters all regressed immensely. But the sluggers on that team were in a season long slump. Kittle batted .215, Luzinski .238, Fisk .231. Harold and Walker were the only 2 guys that showed up in '84. Injuries were not that much of a factor IIRC.

Ah..those batting averages explain apparently some of the problem. I'll bet LaRussa got ejected from a few games that season, out of frustration if nothing else! :D:

Baby Fisk
06-13-2005, 05:36 PM
I was only 12 at the time, but I do remember everything going wrong that year. The pitchers and hitters all regressed immensely.
Regression! Frustration! Elimination! Degradation! Rage and Bitterness... :angry:

TDog
06-13-2005, 07:14 PM
LaMarr Hoyt said the team didn't have the same drive, sort of assumed they would win. Because they had gotten off to a bad start in '83, the bad start in '84 wasn't a big concern, and the Sox did pull into first place by a game at the break.

You have to appreciate the great years when they come along.

RedPinStripes
06-13-2005, 07:26 PM
Ddin't a few pitchers get hurt that year too? I think that's when Dotson went down and Hoyt went heavy on the drugs. And the next year is when everyone's favorite pbp guy Hawk got some crazy ideas and screws the Sox up for about 4 years.

TornLabrum
06-13-2005, 09:14 PM
The one thing I remember is that the club seemed to have an attitude that "We can turn it on any time, and then watch out." They never turned it on.

LongLiveFisk
06-13-2005, 09:16 PM
Combined with the Scrubs making the playoffs, it made for a pretty miserable summer for baseball.

Yeah...that feeling was duplicated in '89 for me....and then in '03. Although I think '89 was the worst since the Cubs finished 1st and the Sox finished dead last.

Lip Man 1
06-13-2005, 10:57 PM
From what guys like Ron Kittle have told me in their WSI Interviews the Sox were hurt badly by the trading of Jerry Koosman for Ron Reed. (Even Uncle Jerry has admitted in print that was a major mistake, that Koosman was like a second pitching coach for the club and a tremendous clubhouse guy...) plus as Hal said the Sox were lazy that season thinking they could do it anytime they wanted to.

That was reinforced the week before the All Star break. The Sox 'turned it on,' ripped off seven wins in a row and headed into the break in first place. Then they completely fell apart opening the second half and were done by August 1st.

Lip

Foulke You
06-14-2005, 12:46 AM
I think it was in the '83 Winning Ugly video where they mentioned that someone died in the offseason after the '83 season. I believe it was a coach who was well loved and spoken fondly of in the tape. The name is escaping me though. A couple of the players mentioned his death as one of the several reasons the '84 team wasn't the same as '83.

mike squires
06-14-2005, 03:14 AM
Charlie Lau and Lorn Babe, but I think they did during the 83 season before the ALl Sstar break IIRC. I think the players missed them however I don't think that led to them playing so poorly. I've heard more than one player/front office man mention missing Koozman.

Wsoxmike59
06-14-2005, 07:11 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/stats/alltime/pitching/white_sox/1984/byEARNED_RUN_AVG.html

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/stats/alltime/batting/white_sox/1984/byBATTING_AVG.html

I remember that the White Sox went out and got Tom Seaver and Ron Reed in the offseason and everybody thought the Sox would be a lock to repeat as Division Champions in 1984.

But some strange things happened along the way, several players didn't have repeat performances of their 1983 standards. Hoyt and Dotson were both under .500, Ron Reed who was 9-1 with the Phillies in 1983 went 0-6 for the Sox, while the bullpen guy he replaced Dennis Lamp moved on to Toronto and went 11-0!

The big bats of '83 slumped badly in 1984 i.e.; Carlton Fisk (.231), Greg Luzinski (.238), Ron Kittle (.215), and Rudy Law(29 SB's) all had subpar numbers far below their usual career statistics.

jdm2662
06-14-2005, 08:14 AM
Didn't Jack Morris pitch a no hitter against them that year?
________
Clavinova (http://www.yamaha-tech.com/wiki/Clavinova)

Dan H
06-14-2005, 08:41 AM
Didn't Jack Morris pitch a no hitter against them that year?

Yes, he did, right at the start of the season. The Sox hitting looked like it had picked up right where it left off in the '83 playoffs.

Roland Hemond maintains the loss of Charlie Lau had a big impact on Luzinksi. The Bull had a real bad year in '84 and was out of baseball by '85. The rest of the '80's was a nightmare. Never would have known by the 99 wins in '83.

elrod
06-14-2005, 08:42 AM
There are lots of teams that follow up a great year with a bad one. Look at the Yankees so far (they won more games last year than the 1983 White Sox did). Or even the Red Sox, so far. What about the Marlins in 2004? The Angels in 2003? The 1994 Phillies? Why is Cleveland's lineup so bad this year? Or how about the 1995 White Sox? Why were they so unprepared for the post-strike season and the Indians rearing to go? Going from great to mediocre is not uncommon, even without dramatic injuries or player changes. Teams change players every year and it's hard to predict which changes will kill the team and which ones won't.

Frater Perdurabo
06-14-2005, 10:15 AM
Ddin't a few pitchers get hurt that year too? I think that's when Dotson went down and Hoyt went heavy on the drugs. And the next year is when everyone's favorite pbp guy Hawk got some crazy ideas and screws the Sox up for about 4 years.

I thought Hawk became GM during the offseason between 1985 and 1986. Wasn't 1985 Hemond's last season as GM?

LongLiveFisk
06-14-2005, 10:24 AM
I thought Hawk became GM during the offseason between 1985 and 1986. Wasn't 1985 Hemond's last season as GM?

Yeah, Hawk took over in '86 and promptly put Fisk in left field and fired Tony LaRussa.

Frater Perdurabo
06-14-2005, 11:15 AM
Yeah, Hawk took over in '86 and promptly put Fisk in left field and fired Tony LaRussa.

Didn't he also trade Bobby Bonilla for Jose DeLeon?

LongLiveFisk
06-14-2005, 11:34 AM
Didn't he also trade Bobby Bonilla for Jose DeLeon?

Yes :redface:

I didn't like that trade from Day 1.

tebman
06-14-2005, 11:44 AM
Yeah, Hawk took over in '86 and promptly put Fisk in left field and fired Tony LaRussa.
Bizarro! We were at opening day in '86 with seats in the LD on the thirdbase line. Fisk played LF, looking like a guy at a department store waiting for his wife.

The first fly ball that went to left got a big rise out of the crowd. Fisk made the catch (a routine, feet-planted, two-handed catch) and the whole LF corner gave him an ovation. It was funny, because everyone in the ballpark knew how silly it was to have Fisk in the outfield.

During a pitching change Fisk was leaning against the Picnic Area screen shooting the breeze with the folks inside. That was fun to watch, but the whole situation was comically weird.

Lip Man 1
06-14-2005, 12:33 PM
Fisk pulled a stomach muscle on a play at the plate and missed a lot of time in 1984. He was never completely healthy that season, needless to say he came back strong in 1985.

Lip

Jurr
06-14-2005, 12:37 PM
The one thing I remember is that the club seemed to have an attitude that "We can turn it on any time, and then watch out." They never turned it on.
Exactly. That also used to be Manuel's favorite quote. "We have a lineup that can get hot at any time, and once they get hot, they're going to stay that way for a long time." Oops.

Paulwny
06-14-2005, 12:45 PM
They 83 team may have over achieved. The 84 collapse was depressing.

Lip Man 1
06-14-2005, 01:22 PM
Elrod:

The 1995 Sox collapsed for a number of reasons.

First is the fact that in order to get 'revenge' against the MLBPA for having the audacity to 'stirke,' Uncle Jerry ordered McDowell traded for a bag of beans and refused to pay Julio Franco, who them took his 99 RBI's and went to Japan. The McDowell deal was officially justified by the Sox in a release stating that they had to make the deal because of the money they lost due to the shortened season.

Also having to take a large part of the blame were the Sox pitchers who stated years later that they didn't work out or practice during the off season because they honestly felt there would not be a 1995 season or if there was one it wouldn't take place until June or July. They were caught with their pants down and were out of shape when the courts ruled in favor of the MLBPA and the owners collapsed.

That's how you gut a season. With respect it was not a 'natural letdown.'

Lip

LongLiveFisk
06-14-2005, 02:15 PM
Bizarro! We were at opening day in '86 with seats in the LD on the thirdbase line. Fisk played LF, looking like a guy at a department store waiting for his wife.

The first fly ball that went to left got a big rise out of the crowd. Fisk made the catch (a routine, feet-planted, two-handed catch) and the whole LF corner gave him an ovation. It was funny, because everyone in the ballpark knew how silly it was to have Fisk in the outfield.

During a pitching change Fisk was leaning against the Picnic Area screen shooting the breeze with the folks inside. That was fun to watch, but the whole situation was comically weird.

LOL, yeah I was at a couple of games sitting down the left field line and a bunch of us would yell "PUDGE!! PUDGE!!" to get his attention. He would always look over and wave. Afterwards it occurred to me what a bad idea it was to distract a player, especially when he's not used to playing that particular position! :tongue:

So I started this thread talking about the 1984 White Sox and I guess I contributed to the hijacking of it! :redneck

jackbrohamer
06-14-2005, 03:40 PM
Yes, he did, right at the start of the season. The Sox hitting looked like it had picked up right where it left off in the '83 playoffs.

Yep, Morris' no-hitter was the second Sox home game of the season. It was like 35 degrees in the afternoon and I made my poor brother stay the whole game becasue, ya know, it was a no-hitter.

Layla
06-15-2005, 04:10 PM
Ddin't a few pitchers get hurt that year too? I think that's when Dotson went down and Hoyt went heavy on the drugs. And the next year is when everyone's favorite pbp guy Hawk got some crazy ideas and screws the Sox up for about 4 years.

I don't remember about Richard, but I do know that LaMarr's problems didn't happen until he was in San Diego and got hurt there.

eriqjaffe
06-15-2005, 04:56 PM
Dotson was healthy in '84. In fact, aside from the mediocre W/L record (14-15), his stats weren't that far off from what he put up in '83. In fact, his 3.59 ERA was the best among the starting staff.

Rich got hurt in '85, and never really regained his form.

Hoyt, on the other hand, struggled in '84, putting up an ERA of 4.47, and losing 18 games. He was traded to the Padres in the off season (along witha couple of minor leaguers who never saw the show) for Tim Lollar, Bill Long, Luis Salazar and Ozzie Guillen. Hoyt was out of baseball after the'86 season.

kojak
06-15-2005, 05:18 PM
Also, IIRC we gave Julio Cruz a BIG, FAT contract after his awesome 1983 season.

And then he gave us the big, fat one in 1984...

After he came here from Seattle in a mid-season trade in 1983, he was a catalyst for the playoff run, hitting .251 (.311 OBP) and scoring 47 runs in 99 games.

In 1984, he hit .222 (.295 OBP) and scored 42 runs in 143 games.

1985 was even worse and he was out of baseball by...yep, 1986.

eriqjaffe
06-16-2005, 08:51 AM
Are the Sox still paying Julio Cruz? I thought there was some craaaaazy long-term deferred money in that contract...

Lip Man 1
06-16-2005, 11:25 AM
No that ended in the mid 90's.

Lip