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DoggPhood
06-12-2005, 12:30 AM
paulie's so slow!

South Sider
06-12-2005, 12:31 AM
TOUGH LOSS !!!! :angry: :angry: :angry: Paulie is the slowest men in the world :angry: :angry:

owensmouth
06-12-2005, 12:31 AM
Ratz!!!

dcb33
06-12-2005, 12:31 AM
:whoflungpoo Here we go! Look out below!

ilsox7
06-12-2005, 12:31 AM
paulie's so slow!

He is indeed slow. But hey, this stuff happens. We have been doing this to teams all year. 41-20 is pretty damn sweet.

PAPChiSox729
06-12-2005, 12:31 AM
West, I think the 'Dark Clouds' are about to roll in...

CubsfansareDRUNK
06-12-2005, 12:31 AM
i seriously cried. That was so ugly i threw up every damn time the fans cheered because of a strike out. And paulie, man was he CHUGGING it. On a more positive note I'm not worried about garcia one bit.

AJPosguchi
06-12-2005, 12:32 AM
Poor execution all night, Shingo should have been in for the 9th. Padres are too familiar with Hermanson and he's been off the past few games.

CubKilla
06-12-2005, 12:32 AM
paulie's so slow!

Too bad he was safe

sandknit
06-12-2005, 12:32 AM
This game exposed one of our weaknesses- no back up 1st baseman that can play the field. If Frank or Gload are healthy, someone pinch runs for Paulie and maybe we go to extras.

Jjav829
06-12-2005, 12:32 AM
Ozzie's a moron. Hermanson sucks. Konerko can't run. With crap like this we'll never win 120 games!

SouthSide4Life
06-12-2005, 12:32 AM
we really lost when Otsuka got those 2 outs

chidonez
06-12-2005, 12:32 AM
I told you we should left MB in the game!

elrod
06-12-2005, 12:32 AM
Now we've got closer issues. Hermy has given up a run in each of his last four outings. We had no room for error tonight, but the way that last inning was going, he was about to give up about 4 runs. Hermy is still the man, of course. But I have much less confidence in him these days.

ilsox7
06-12-2005, 12:33 AM
Too bad he was safe

Eh, he looked very safe at first. But the replay showed it was bang-bang. Can't really fault the umpire on a play that close.

FarWestChicago
06-12-2005, 12:33 AM
West, I think the 'Dark Clouds' are about to roll in...Yes, they will be present and happy tonight. :o:

Buehrle > Wood
06-12-2005, 12:33 AM
This one is tough to swallow...You knew 1 run wouldn't be enough especially after the 8th with first and third nobody out.

ChicagoHoosier
06-12-2005, 12:33 AM
The Padres were jumping up and down, climbing on each other like they'd just won the World Series.

I mostly feel badly for Burls. Man, this one is tough to swallow. Let's get em tomorrow with Freddy pitching during the daytime.

BTW, I think PK was out - right call. I was surprised Cora sent him knowing how slow he was. A good throw would have had him out by over 5 feet.

cheeses_h_rice
06-12-2005, 12:33 AM
OK, my gripes:

1. Buehrle should have been pinch hit for in the 8th, rather than having him bunt. You gotta go with someone that can put the bat on the ball to get the run in from 3rd. Ozzie used him for 2 batters and then took him out.

2. Konerko is slow as ****, and IMO he was safe. Huge momentum turn right there.

3. No problems with using Hermanson to close, but he's been skating on thin ice his last 4-5 games. Maybe keeping Politte in for the 9th next time might not be a bad idea.

What a crap loss. I feel for Buehrle.

CubsfansareDRUNK
06-12-2005, 12:33 AM
I told you we should left MB in the game!

agree 100%.

PAPChiSox729
06-12-2005, 12:33 AM
Ozzie's a moron. Hermanson sucks. Konerko can't run. With crap like this we'll never win 120 games!

:D: :D:

Damn straight!!
:redneck

Cubbiesuck13
06-12-2005, 12:33 AM
I blame The Oz for not knowing neither Pods nor Iguchi would come through with a runner on 3rd and for not knowing Hermy was due for a blown save and his first homer given up.

South Sider
06-12-2005, 12:33 AM
Best way to beat the Sox.......call up a rookie and start them against us

elrod
06-12-2005, 12:34 AM
Doesn't matter how slow Paulie is. We would have lost 3-2 instead of 2-1 if he had scored. That 9th inning had U-G-L-Y written all over it.

Blob
06-12-2005, 12:34 AM
Great game MB, too bad he couldn't get the win.


Come back and get 'em tomorrow!

FloridaSox
06-12-2005, 12:34 AM
Now we've got closer issues. Hermy has given up a run in each of his last four outings. We had no room for error tonight, but the way that last inning was going, he was about to give up about 4 runs. Hermy is still the man, of course. But I have much less confidence in him these days.

He has pitched in seven of nine games in June...bullpen management means sometimes trusting guys like Cotts or Politte to finish a game.

pczarapa
06-12-2005, 12:34 AM
paulie's so slow!

Dammmmmit!!!! I thought Paulie scored, but after seeing the last replay it was close enough to call him out. This sucks after Mark threw such a nice game.

SouthSide4Life
06-12-2005, 12:34 AM
Too bad he was safeno way man, i saw them camera angles... Hernandez got him. it even fooled hawk from his angle and he did appear to be safe but the close camera shot shows a clear out....damn.

Deadguy
06-12-2005, 12:34 AM
Konerko can't run.

Why is this in teal?

BlackHat91
06-12-2005, 12:34 AM
Is it just me or is Hermy looking a little tired out there? We need to work Shingo back into the rotation. He hasnt pitched in what seems like forever.

CubsfansareDRUNK
06-12-2005, 12:34 AM
OK, my gripes:

1. Buehrle should have been pinch hit for in the 8th, rather than having him bunt. You gotta go with someone that can put the bat on the ball to get the run in from 3rd. Ozzie used him for 2 batters and then took him out.

2. Konerko is slow as ****, and IMO he was safe. Huge momentum turn right there.

3. No problems with using Hermanson to close, but he's been skating on thin ice his last 4-5 games. Maybe keeping Politte in for the 9th next time might not be a bad idea.

What a crap loss. I feel for Buehrle.

i feel terrible for him. the way he pitched that game?:(:

Brian26
06-12-2005, 12:34 AM
Well, let me say this. If one good thing comes out of this game, it's the fact that the Padres just had a post-game celebration like they had won the ****ing World Series, complete with Fick jumping on top of the pile like a 12-year old. I'll take that as the ultimate sign of respect towards the Chicago White Sox franchise, who still hold the best record in baseball.

Tough break for Buehrle, who completely deserved a win for his efforts, but the Padres pitcher was tough too.

Rocklive99
06-12-2005, 12:34 AM
Slow, but that was still a blown call. People will say 'that's what happens when you don't get anyone in in the 8th' as if to give an umpire justification for blowing a call that was right in front of him, with a trained eye and that job, there's no way you should miss that call. I'm not saying we would've won, but AJ would've been on 2nd or 3rd, and you never know what would've gone on from there, I just know I felt a momentum switch with a bad feeling in the 9th

Go get em tomorow

CanBuehrleWait
06-12-2005, 12:35 AM
I feel worst for Buehrle. He has pitched so well and now haslost out on 3 very deserved wins (Cleveland game being maybe a slight exception). Not to be bogus but would but woulda liked to have seen a pinch hitter for buehrle in that top of the 8th. Big Frank mighta hit a sac fly. Woulda coulda shoulda

Nard
06-12-2005, 12:35 AM
Now we've got closer issues. Hermy has given up a run in each of his last four outings. We had no room for error tonight, but the way that last inning was going, he was about to give up about 4 runs. Hermy is still the man, of course. But I have much less confidence in him these days.

I still don't see we can't have a permanent closer-by-committee. No doubt in my mind that Cliff would've saved that ballgame.

TaylorStSox
06-12-2005, 12:35 AM
Gload would have been real nice. The lack of a 1st baseman really hurt us. 2-0 is a world away from 1-0.


15/16 saves doesn't warrant a need for a new closer. That's just stupid.


PK was out.

FarWestChicago
06-12-2005, 12:36 AM
He has pitched in seven of nine games in June...bullpen management means sometimes trusting guys like Cotts or Politte to finish a game.LOL, tell that to Mullet Brantley.

Chicago83
06-12-2005, 12:36 AM
This game exposed one of our weaknesses- no back up 1st baseman that can play the field. If Frank or Gload are healthy, someone pinch runs for Paulie and maybe we go to extras.

Yeah that's the only thing that really bothers me about this game. We lost a huge run because we didn't have anyone to back up Konerko. That should have been Willie out there scoring with ease. This shows a weakness on our team that needs to be addressed, when is Gload coming back? If not soon then trading for a good becnch player who can play 1B/3B would not be a bad idea.

ilsox7
06-12-2005, 12:36 AM
Well, let me say this. If one good thing comes out of this game, it's the fact that the Padres just had a post-game celebration like they had won the ****ing World Series, complete with Fick jumping on top of the pile like a 12-year old. I'll take that as the ultimate sign of respect towards the Chicago White Sox franchise, who still hold the best record in baseball.

Tough break for Buehrle, who completely deserved a win for his efforts, but the Padres pitcher was tough too.

Well said. It was an all around good baseball game with 2 guys flat-out dealing out there. And hey, we got beat. We have been winning this type of game all year. And we will lose some of them. Nice thing about this team is they are already thinking about tomorrow's game and will show up ready to play and go 5-1 on the trip.

South Sider
06-12-2005, 12:36 AM
Of course....this game was televised here in Germany :angry: :angry:
Like the 5-2 loss vs MIN or the 0-4 loss vs LAA

The Sox are killing me when they are on TV here in Germany

Damned :angry: :angry: :angry:

oeo
06-12-2005, 12:37 AM
TOUGH LOSS !!!! :angry: :angry: :angry: Paulie is the slowest men in the world :angry: :angry:

That's ridiculous, Cora knows Paulie runs like an old man...if you're going to blame it on anyone it's Cora. Why does he feel he ALWAYS has to wave Paulie in, it makes me so mad.

Tragg
06-12-2005, 12:37 AM
If you know you're taking MB out, then for goodness sakes pinch hit for him; our bullpen management leaves a lot to be desired and has all season.

MRKARNO
06-12-2005, 12:37 AM
The problem with tonight is that Ozzie did what he said he wouldnt do: designate a by the book closer. I would have thought that if Ozzie were following his stated bullpen usage pattern, that he'd let the reliever who appeared to be throwing well (Politte) get the final three outs.

And Hermanson is in a slump now. He's not changing speeds effectively what so ever. He's consistantly throwing the same pitch as the first pitch when he's brought in (sinker over the high corner on the righthand side of the plate). I would let Cotts and Politte close out games right now.

batmanZoSo
06-12-2005, 12:37 AM
We just wasted 1/162nd of the entire season. In other words, who cares. Can't win 'em all. Win the series tomorrow.

I felt we were pushing our luck to win this one when we didn't score with runners at 1st and 3rd and nobody out. Night and day ballclub from yesterday. Can't win when you don't execute. And when you play every day, some days you're just not going to execute.

ilsox7
06-12-2005, 12:37 AM
I still don't see we can't have a permanent closer-by-committee. No doubt in my mind that Cliff would've saved that ballgame.

Just because you have no doubt in your mind that he saves it doesn't mean he would. You'd be whining about why Hermy was left i nthe Pen if he blows it.

Kogs35
06-12-2005, 12:37 AM
oh well. pauly was safe, but cant get em all. tough loss tonight but freddy will get em tomorow. thankfully tomorow is the last game with out the dh for thee regular season

elrod
06-12-2005, 12:37 AM
I thought Politte might have been the man for the 9th too, but after Klesko popped out I figured maybe Hermy's got it figured out. And then Ramon, and disaster. Hermy has the right attitude to close. He'll forget about this game tomorrow. I'm a bit worried about his control, though. He keeps getting behind hitters and leaving the ball in somewhat hittable position.

SouthSide4Life
06-12-2005, 12:37 AM
is it just me and that one espn announcer that sees Kahlil Green has a striking resemblance to Jeff Spicoli? an espn announcer commented on that on Wednesday Night Baseball when they played the Injuns

PicktoCLick72
06-12-2005, 12:37 AM
Paul Konerko needs to visit DOn Beebe's House of Speed.

Brian26
06-12-2005, 12:38 AM
Just for discussion here, Buehrle was trying to bunt with runners on the corners and no outs in the 8th. I think he made two stabs at it, and Hawk mentioned that he would rather see Buehrle swinging away. Did anyone catch what Pods was doing at third? Was that a safety squeeze attempt?

Unregistered
06-12-2005, 12:38 AM
Eh, these will happen.

We were walking on thin ice the whole game with a 1-0 lead and anyone who's been paying attention might have expected Hermanson to blow his first save of the season tonight. Last night he got hit OK, and tonight they made him pay for it. Nothing to be ashamed of, the Padres are in first place, and they took care of business when they had the chance to.

Obviously the momentum shifted completely after PK was called out at home, and not being able to score an insurance run when we had a few golden opportunities bit us in the ass.

On the plus side, at least Ozzie can't bring out all the scrubs tommorrow, considering we haven't won the series yet. :wink:

Konerkoholic
06-12-2005, 12:38 AM
By far the worst managed game of baseball I've ever seen. You HAVE to pinch hit for buehrle in that situation. It's not like he had a no-hitter. We've got good arms in the bullpen who could use an extra run to work with. But if you were gonna let Buehrle bat, for God's sake let him go 9. Enough of this "not letting the pitcher take a loss" crap. How about letting the team get a loss. Is that better? How many Sox players feel good now because Mark didn't get a loss?
And although hermy's the closer, why take Politte out? Hermy's been used a lot lately and Politte dominated the only batter he faced. I won't even get to the not pinch-running for Konerko thing. Ozzie was a total idiot tonight and he cost the Sox a game in the standings.

DickAllen72
06-12-2005, 12:38 AM
Is it just me or is Hermy looking a little tired out there? We need to work Shingo back into the rotation. He hasnt pitched in what seems like forever.

Shingo will be the closer again before too long. All he needs is to get his control back. He started slow last year also, but by summer he was lights out and earned that closer's spot. Look for the same thing this year.

Cubbiesuck13
06-12-2005, 12:39 AM
Well, let me say this. If one good thing comes out of this game, it's the fact that the Padres just had a post-game celebration like they had won the ****ing World Series, complete with Fick jumping on top of the pile like a 12-year old. I'll take that as the ultimate sign of respect towards the Chicago White Sox franchise, who still hold the best record in baseball.

Tough break for Buehrle, who completely deserved a win for his efforts, but the Padres pitcher was tough too.


I didn't see the celebration. Was it any different than any of the teams do after a walk off homer? The Sox were pretty pumped after Dye's the other night and were jumping in a big pile at the plate. Just wondering...

Jjav829
06-12-2005, 12:39 AM
If you know you're taking MB out, then for goodness sakes pinch hit for him; our bullpen management leaves a lot to be desired and has all season.

Ozzie didn't know he was taking Buehrle out. He sent Buehrle out for the 8th and had Buehrle retired the side 1-2-3, he wouldn't have been yanked. That's how you should play that situation. Ozzie managed this game perfectly IMO. The players just didn't get the job done and that's all there is to it.

RavenswoodFan
06-12-2005, 12:39 AM
OK, my gripes:

1. Buehrle should have been pinch hit for in the 8th, rather than having him bunt. You gotta go with someone that can put the bat on the ball to get the run in from 3rd. Ozzie used him for 2 batters and then took him out.

2. Konerko is slow as ****, and IMO he was safe. Huge momentum turn right there.

3. No problems with using Hermanson to close, but he's been skating on thin ice his last 4-5 games. Maybe keeping Politte in for the 9th next time might not be a bad idea.

What a crap loss. I feel for Buehrle.



I agree with you.:angry:

ilsox7
06-12-2005, 12:39 AM
Just for discussion here, Buehrle was trying to bunt with runners on the corners and no outs in the 8th. I think he made two stabs at it, and Hawk mentioned that he would rather see Buehrle swinging away. Did anyone catch what Pods was doing at third? Was that a safety squeeze attempt?

Didn't see what Pods was doing, but I'd agree to let him swing away. If he bunts, it's quite likely it is 2nd and 3rd with 1 out. If he swings away, even a DP gets the run in. And MB showed he can make contact earlier in the game.

SouthSide4Life
06-12-2005, 12:39 AM
I thought Politte might have been the man for the 9th too, but after Klesko popped out I figured maybe Hermy's got it figured out. And then Ramon, and disaster. Hermy has the right attitude to close. He'll forget about this game tomorrow. I'm a bit worried about his control, though. He keeps getting behind hitters and leaving the ball in somewhat hittable position.that long ball did hang over the plate for ever, The Designated Hermanson will shake it off, besides.... it ain't no big thang

TaylorStSox
06-12-2005, 12:40 AM
By far the worst managed game of baseball I've ever seen. You HAVE to pinch hit for buehrle in that situation. It's not like he had a no-hitter. We've got good arms in the bullpen who could use an extra run to work with. But if you were gonna let Buehrle bat, for God's sake let him go 9. Enough of this "not letting the pitcher take a loss" crap. How about letting the team get a loss. Is that better? How many Sox players feel good now because Mark didn't get a loss?
And although hermy's the closer, why take Politte out? Hermy's been used a lot lately and Politte dominated the only batter he faced. I won't even get to the not pinch-running for Konerko thing. Ozzie was a total idiot tonight and he cost the Sox a game in the standings.


And the Chicken Littles, or Dark Clouds, enter. LOL. :rolleyes:

DrCrawdad
06-12-2005, 12:40 AM
paulie's so slow!

As soon as Paulie reached first base I began chanting, "PINCH RUNNER! PINCH RUNNER!"

My first guess, turned out to be right.

Konerkoholic
06-12-2005, 12:40 AM
Wow, everyone here is so much better at keeping calm than I am. I wish I had a better temper but man, I love watching the Sox win so much that I blow up after the tough losses.

FarWestChicago
06-12-2005, 12:41 AM
By far the worst managed game of baseball I've ever seen.LOL, I would bet even some of the other Ragers would think that's a "little" bit over the top. :redneck

Unregistered
06-12-2005, 12:41 AM
That's ridiculous, Cora knows Paulie runs like an old man...if you're going to blame it on anyone it's Cora. Why does he feel he ALWAYS has to wave Paulie in, it makes me so mad.
It's part of the new "agressive" style. With 2 outs and the lead in late innings, you take a chance and send the guy. Of course, it would have been nice if that guy could have been ANYONE other than PK... but oh well. Just our luck tonight, I guess.

Brian26
06-12-2005, 12:41 AM
Obviously the momentum shifted completely after PK was called out at home

Yeah, I'd say momentum shifted even the half-inning before that when we struck out three straight times with runners on the corners.

TaylorStSox
06-12-2005, 12:41 AM
Didn't see what Pods was doing, but I'd agree to let him swing away. If he bunts, it's quite likely it is 2nd and 3rd with 1 out. If he swings away, even a DP gets the run in. And MB showed he can make contact earlier in the game.

lol Pods wasn't at 3rd. That'd be kind of weird to have your leadoff hitter at 3rd and your pitcher batting.

Viva Medias B's
06-12-2005, 12:42 AM
Ozzie's performance tonight was nothing short of Wannstedtian! This is the kind of loss that stats corpseball losing streaks. I think this was his worst managerial performance of the season. Among his blunders:


Not pinch hitting for Buehrle in the 8th inning.
Not pinch running for Konerko in the 9th inning.
Sending Konerko, the slowest bipedal man on earth, on Pierzynski's hit (Cora's fault).
Allowing the taxed Hermanson to start the 9th when Politte should have started the 9th.
I think Ozzie has done a good job overall, but he deserves crap for this one. And if he blows up at the media tonight, he would look like a buffoon.

This loss capped off the end of the perfectly craptacular baseball day with the Evil Empire winning, the Evil Empire gaining a game on the Cardinals because the latter played like crap against the Yankees, the Dodgers letting Minnesota have their way with them, and us laying that steaming pile of crap in San Diego tonight causing the Twins to move closer in our rear view mirror.

:chunks

ilsox7
06-12-2005, 12:42 AM
lol Pods wasn't at 3rd. That'd be kind of weird to have your leadoff hitter at 3rd and your pitcher batting.

Yea I was just going off the post I was replying to. Realized it after I posted.

fram40
06-12-2005, 12:42 AM
Just for discussion here, Buehrle was trying to bunt with runners on the corners and no outs in the 8th. I think he made two stabs at it, and Hawk mentioned that he would rather see Buehrle swinging away. Did anyone catch what Pods was doing at third? Was that a safety squeeze attempt?

It was Crede on third Uribe on first

SouthSide4Life
06-12-2005, 12:43 AM
Wow, everyone here is so much better at keeping calm than I am. I wish I had a better temper but man, I love watching the Sox win so much that I blow up after the tough losses.you and me both brother

Brian26
06-12-2005, 12:43 AM
Didn't see what Pods was doing, but I'd agree to let him swing away. If he bunts, it's quite likely it is 2nd and 3rd with 1 out. If he swings away, even a DP gets the run in. And MB showed he can make contact earlier in the game.

Exactly. Buehrle had put good wood on the ball earlier with a nice flyout to medium-deep center. Putting down a regular bunt is tough in that situation for a pitcher who rarely bats, but a squeeze is even tougher.

chidonez
06-12-2005, 12:43 AM
Ozzie managed this game perfectly IMO. The players just didn't get the job done and that's all there is to it.

I don't exactly agree with the first statement, but the second is dead on. The boys needed to do a better job at the plate. We watched too many pitches, and swung at too many balls. This rookie was good, but we made him look even better by being cold at the plate.

FarWestChicago
06-12-2005, 12:43 AM
Ozzie's performance tonight was nothing short of Wannstedtian! This is the kind of loss that stats corpseball losing streaks.Excellent meltdown, Viva. You're in fine form. You must have been really bummed out the last few days. :rolleyes:

PAPChiSox729
06-12-2005, 12:43 AM
lol Pods wasn't at 3rd. That'd be kind of weird to have your leadoff hitter at 3rd and your pitcher batting.

Wasn't it Uribe? Anyways, tommorrow would be a huge win for us. This was a tough loss but the Sox are just going to have to forget about it. I still consider a series victory on the road against a first place team pretty good series.
:cool:

TBlock29
06-12-2005, 12:43 AM
Everyone always has something to say and cry about everytime we lose...WHY??? We have the best record in baseball...It was Hermanson's first blown save 15/16...Paulie sure tried his best (very close play)...We can't win every game we play, but we sure will win just about every series including tomorrow...Let's just forget about tonight and worry about Sunday.

GO SOX
WIN OR DIE TRYING:angry:

flo-B-flo
06-12-2005, 12:44 AM
Ozzie's a moron. Hermanson sucks. Konerko can't run. With crap like this we'll never win 120 games! snort.....chuckle

Tragg
06-12-2005, 12:44 AM
Ozzie didn't know he was taking Buehrle out. He sent Buehrle out for the 8th and had Buehrle retired the side 1-2-3, he wouldn't have been yanked. That's how you should play that situation. Ozzie managed this game perfectly IMO. The players just didn't get the job done and that's all there is to it.

Well, if his feeling is that if he gives up a hit he'll take him out then balancing the chances of that versus a runner on 3rd, zero outs and the next guy up not a SF sort of hitter, then you pinch hit for him anyway; or you at least let MB swing the bat. What was a bunt going to do (I know, more 2 into scoring position but we needed at least 1).

Hermanson has pitched in 7/9 games and has been getting hit lately, including last night. Padres have seen this guy for years. Time to let someone else close. If we went by "he's the closer" theory religiously, Shingo would still be out there (egads) and foulke may still be setup man to bobby howry or both to billy bob simas.

And then you juxtapose this with the infamous Angels game when he absolutely refused to put Hermanson in even though Hermanson had like 4 days of rest and no one was coming close to hitting him.

ilsox7
06-12-2005, 12:45 AM
Exactly. Buehrle had put good wood on the ball earlier with a nice flyout to medium-deep center. Putting down a regular bunt is tough in that situation for a pitcher who rarely bats, but a squeeze is even tougher.

And MB is left-handed, so I doubt even a safety squeeze on. IMO, if you're going to question Ozzie about anything in this game, it's the call to not let MB swing away. Who knows what happens if he sends a PH up there...for all we know that dude strikes out too. But MB probly should have been allowed to swign away.

Either way, we're still the best team in baseball. And as far as I can remember, we've not had a tough loss like this in a month or so. That's pretty damn good.

ScottsdaleSoxFan
06-12-2005, 12:45 AM
yeah I was in the chat during the time of the beginning of the 9th and I was one of the many who said leave in Cliff!!!! Once again Ozzie makes a dumb move. Remember last night Ozzie when Hermanson gave up a run! DONT BRING HIM IN. Wow I was pissed about this one.

Nard
06-12-2005, 12:45 AM
As soon as Paulie reached first base I began chanting, "PINCH RUNNER! PINCH RUNNER!"

My first guess, turned out to be right.

As soon as I saw Hermy coming in for the 9th, I said out loud that it was a bad idea, that he's been getting hit, that the Pads all ready know him, and that Cliff was definitely the better man for the job. I said that Hermie would blow the save.

But apparently you're not allowed to question Ozzie's brilliant bullpen management because everyone who whines only does so after the fact and really don't know anything about baseball?

MRKARNO
06-12-2005, 12:45 AM
This is not a game that you should really get worked over about.

Disheartening? Yes.

Is this a game we should have won? Probably

Does any team always win the games that they're supposed to? Not even the 2001 Mariners.

Do we still have the best record in baseball? Um, yeah

Are we still safely in first place? 4.5 games isn't a tenous lead.

Is Buehrle awesome? You bet.

Will he be this awesome all year? Probably.

Are the Sox going to lose a lot of games like that? Not a whole lot.

Is it an embarrassment to lose to the Padres? Not at all.

Did Ozzie mess up this game? No

How many games are the Sox ahead of the WC second place team right now? 8.5

Is there really a whole lot to be upset about? No.

Buehrle > Wood
06-12-2005, 12:46 AM
The problem with tonight is that Ozzie did what he said he wouldnt do: designate a by the book closer. I would have thought that if Ozzie were following his stated bullpen usage pattern, that he'd let the reliever who appeared to be throwing well (Politte) get the final three outs.

And Hermanson is in a slump now. He's not changing speeds effectively what so ever. He's consistantly throwing the same pitch as the first pitch when he's brought in (sinker over the high corner on the righthand side of the plate). I would let Cotts and Politte close out games right now.

I give Dustin all the credit in the world what he has done so far. But lately he just hasn't had it. I would not have minded seeing Politte in the 9th after getting that big K to end the 8th.

Konerkoholic
06-12-2005, 12:46 AM
Man, I love this website. 10 minutes ago I was throwing stuff around the room. Now I've gotten a rant out of my system, and more rational people than myself have calmed me down and put things into perspective. Thanks guys. Freddy'll get 'em tomorrow anyway.

ilsox7
06-12-2005, 12:46 AM
Everyone always has something to say and cry about everytime we lose...WHY??? We have the best record in baseball...It was Hermanson's first blown save 15/16...Paulie sure tried his best (very close play)...We can't win every game we play, but we sure will win just about every series including tomorrow...Let's just forget about tonight and worry about Sunday.

GO SOX
WIN OR DIE TRYING:angry:

How dare you bring this logic to WSI!

JB98
06-12-2005, 12:46 AM
By far the worst managed game of baseball I've ever seen. You HAVE to pinch hit for buehrle in that situation. It's not like he had a no-hitter. We've got good arms in the bullpen who could use an extra run to work with. But if you were gonna let Buehrle bat, for God's sake let him go 9. Enough of this "not letting the pitcher take a loss" crap. How about letting the team get a loss. Is that better? How many Sox players feel good now because Mark didn't get a loss?
And although hermy's the closer, why take Politte out? Hermy's been used a lot lately and Politte dominated the only batter he faced. I won't even get to the not pinch-running for Konerko thing. Ozzie was a total idiot tonight and he cost the Sox a game in the standings.

Ozzie is a total idiot every time we lose according to some. I would have pinch-hit for Buerhle too, but despite that lack of a move, we still should have scored in that inning. It's not Ozzie's fault Podsednik took strike three right down the middle and Iguchi waved at two pitches in the dirt. Just bad execution offensively.

I'm not down on Hermanson at all. I can't believe people are calling for Shingo. Dustin only made one bad pitch, the hanging splitter to Hernandez. After that, he got in trouble on a bloop by Burroughs and a seeing-eye hit by Fick. Stuff happens.

Chisox003
06-12-2005, 12:47 AM
Poor execution all night, Shingo should have been in for the 9th. Padres are too familiar with Hermanson and he's been off the past few games.

Pretty easy to second guess now, isnt it?

And when Shingo came in and gave up back to back jacks to Klesko and Hernandez, everyone would have been hunting for Ozzies head for not bringin Hermy in

Paulie was safe, but hey, it was close...Tough loss against a tough team at their park....

Win tomorrow, and come home with another series win....

Buehrle, ****ing amazing :gulp:

Brian26
06-12-2005, 12:47 AM
And as far as I can remember, we've not had a tough loss like this in a month or so.

I think we had a tough loss last Sunday :D:

CHISOXFAN13
06-12-2005, 12:47 AM
Ozzie's performance tonight was nothing short of Wannstedtian! This is the kind of loss that stats corpseball losing streaks. I think this was his worst managerial performance of the season. Among his blunders:

Not pinch hitting for Buehrle in the 8th inning.
Not pinch running for Konerko in the 9th inning.
Sending Konerko, the slowest bipedal man on earth, on Pierzynski's hit (Cora's fault).
Allowing the taxed Hermanson to start the 9th when Politte should have started the 9th.
I think Ozzie has done a good job overall, but he deserves crap for this one. And if he blows up at the media tonight, he would look like a buffoon.

This loss capped off the end of the perfectly craptacular baseball day with the Evil Empire winning, the Evil Empire gaining a game on the Cardinals because the latter played like crap against the Yankees, the Dodgers letting Minnesota have their way with them, and us laying that steaming pile of crap in San Diego tonight causing the Twins to move closer in our rear view mirror.

:chunks

I bet you jumped for joy when Timo played first base agaibnst Anaheim huh?

*****

CubsfansareDRUNK
06-12-2005, 12:47 AM
Man, I love this website. 10 minutes ago I was throwing stuff around the room. Now I've gotten a rant out of my system, and more rational people than myself have calmed me down and put things into perspective. Thanks guys. Freddy'll get 'em tomorrow anyway.

welcome to WSI :cool:

Nard
06-12-2005, 12:48 AM
How many games are the Sox ahead of the WC second place team right now? 8.5

If Ozzie could manage a ****ing bullpen would we even feel the need to talk about the wild card AT ALL?

No.

TBlock29
06-12-2005, 12:48 AM
When SD won in the ninth...they were so happy they acted like they just won game 7 of the world series against us. They were jumping on top of each other like morons. Kind of stupid if you ask me...and don't worry Freddy Garcia will in deed shut them DOWN!!!

The Racehorse
06-12-2005, 12:48 AM
Best way to beat the Sox.......call up a rookie and start them against us

Our advance scouting team must be scouting pitchers while watching games at Hooters.

Seriously, it's been that way since the 03 season. I'd like to think that this is something worthy of being addressed by KW.

TaylorStSox
06-12-2005, 12:48 AM
I love the notion that tomorrow is a "must win" and it's only June 11th. Get over it.

ilsox7
06-12-2005, 12:48 AM
I think we had a tough loss last Sunday :D:

Nah, mostly b/c we were dead that whole game, then Tad saves it and gets it to extras. Then we are dead again and tie it again. That was a game we were supposed to lose yet we almost won. Tonight, we should have won and lost. Much tougher.

Brian26
06-12-2005, 12:49 AM
Ozzie is a total idiot every time we lose according to some. I would have pinch-hit for Buerhle too, but despite that lack of a move, we still should have scored in that inning. It's not Ozzie's fault Podsednik took strike three right down the middle and Iguchi waved at two pitches in the dirt. Just bad execution offensively.

That's the best point I've heard all night.

PAPChiSox729
06-12-2005, 12:49 AM
Did we really need a new thread for this? Freddy will take care of business, no worries.

:cool:

Hendu
06-12-2005, 12:49 AM
Just for discussion here, Buehrle was trying to bunt with runners on the corners and no outs in the 8th. I think he made two stabs at it, and Hawk mentioned that he would rather see Buehrle swinging away. Did anyone catch what Pods was doing at third? Was that a safety squeeze attempt?

Uribe was at 3rd and he must have been waiting for contact so it wasn't much of a squeeze. Actually, I don't know why Buehrle was bunting there b/c only a perfect bunt would have scored Uribe if he was waiting for contact.

Pods was up after Buehrle and took a called 3rd strike on 1-2 count.

ilsox7
06-12-2005, 12:49 AM
If Ozzie could manage a ****ing bullpen would we even feel the need to talk about the wild card AT ALL?

No.

That you Homefish?

Viva Medias B's
06-12-2005, 12:49 AM
The fact that 100% of the wrong teams won today is what really burns us up.

Rocklive99
06-12-2005, 12:50 AM
To leave Buerhle with the expectation of getting a runner in is stupid, no matter what 'good wood' he got earlier in the game, you shouldn't expect that from an AL Pitcher, and Ozzie should've expected a K, especially against a bullpen specialty guy whose not going to play around vs a SP who would take the pitcher for granted or may not want him to look silly

Stop blaming PK! He's slow, but Cora has been stupid all season (and gotten lucky a lot), and after all that PK was safe. I don't see how it was as close as you people say, especially when you are the umpire, in perfect position, the play right in front, and being trained (or supposed to be) for those situations.

Very tough loss, I'd rather have lost 10-0 (well not in the sense of Buerhle getting lit up), but these games can be a block in the road for good seasons, but this team has been resiliant, let's hope they can just put it behind them.

CLR01
06-12-2005, 12:50 AM
Of course....this game was televised here in Germany :angry: :angry:
Like the 5-2 loss vs MIN or the 0-4 loss vs LAA

The Sox are killing me when they are on TV here in Germany

Damned :angry: :angry: :angry:


So they suck on national T.V. and international T.V. They should see if they could get a TV deal like the Expos had.

JB98
06-12-2005, 12:50 AM
As soon as I saw Hermy coming in for the 9th, I said out loud that it was a bad idea, that he's been getting hit, that the Pads all ready know him, and that Cliff was definitely the better man for the job. I said that Hermie would blow the save.

But apparently you're not allowed to question Ozzie's brilliant bullpen management because everyone who whines only does so after the fact and really don't know anything about baseball?

I don't think it's bad bullpen management to bring in a pitcher who had converted 15 consecutive save opportunities.

Brian26
06-12-2005, 12:50 AM
Uribe was at 3rd and he must have been waiting for contact so it wasn't much of a squeeze. Actually, I don't know why Buehrle was bunting there b/c only a perfect bunt would have scored Uribe if he was waiting for contact.

Pods was up after Buehrle and took a called 3rd strike on 1-2 count.

Right, I misspoke. Obviously Pods was in the on-deck circle. Strange that Buehrle was not swinging though.

owensmouth
06-12-2005, 12:50 AM
Our advance scouting team must be scouting pitchers while watching games at Hooters.

Seriously, it's been that way since the 03 season. I'd like to think that this is something worthy of being addressed by KW.How many players from that 03 team were on the field? Two?

ilsox7
06-12-2005, 12:50 AM
The fact that 100% of the wrong teams won today is what really burns us up.

Just think of how many times all of the right teams have won in the same day.

Nard
06-12-2005, 12:51 AM
Our advance scouting team must be scouting pitchers while watching games at Hooters.

Seriously, it's been that way since the 03 season. I'd like to think that this is something worthy of being addressed by KW.

You're crazy! There's nothing you can do at all when a pitcher is dealing like this. An all-time, all-MLB all-star lineup with each individual player in their prime probably wouldn't even get a single hit off of Stauffer tonight. Not our fault at all.

MRKARNO
06-12-2005, 12:51 AM
I give Dustin all the credit in the world what he has done so far. But lately he just hasn't had it. I would not have minded seeing Politte in the 9th after getting that big K to end the 8th.

I mean, Ozzie has to balance the need to show confidence in his players with the need to win individual ballgames. Hermanson had given up runs in 4 of his 6 outings since the scoreless streak ended. Not all the runs were earned, but one UER was on a dubious error against Rowand and Hermanson himself committed the other error. I know what Ozzie is thinking, but I think Ozzie should have gone with Politte in that frame. It was perfectly logical and by the book to put Hermanson in there, but he has not been pitching well lately at all.

ChiSoxGirl
06-12-2005, 12:51 AM
The Padres were jumping up and down, climbing on each other like they'd just won the World Series.

I mostly feel badly for Burls. Man, this one is tough to swallow. Let's get em tomorrow with Freddy pitching during the daytime.

BTW, I think PK was out - right call. I was surprised Cora sent him knowing how slow he was. A good throw would have had him out by over 5 feet.

I said the EXACT same thing to my uncle in San Diego! Those guys act like they just won the World Series! My uncle told me that Tony Gwynn, the color guy on the Padres t.v. network, said "this was the most exciting game of the year for them." My uncle: "If that's the most exciting game of their season, that's pathetic."

BTW- The Padres t.v. guys were also raving about Scott Podsednik and what a fantastic pickup it was for the team! :bandance:

CubsfansareDRUNK
06-12-2005, 12:51 AM
The fact that 100% of the wrong teams won today is what really burns us up.

what are you talking about? pittsburgh won 18-2

CHISOXFAN13
06-12-2005, 12:51 AM
Ozzie is a total idiot every time we lose according to some. I would have pinch-hit for Buerhle too, but despite that lack of a move, we still should have scored in that inning. It's not Ozzie's fault Podsednik took strike three right down the middle and Iguchi waved at two pitches in the dirt. Just bad execution offensively.

I'm not down on Hermanson at all. I can't believe people are calling for Shingo. Dustin only made one bad pitch, the hanging splitter to Hernandez. After that, he got in trouble on a bloop by Burroughs and a seeing-eye hit by Fick. Stuff happens.

Agree with everything you said. Who's to say a pinch hitter fares any better than two of our top hitters who looked foolish against Otsuka.

And hell, dis anyone on this site really believe Hermanson would go the whole season without blowing a save.

Poor execution all night long starting in the first. One run in and a runner on second and three straight hitters do nothing.

It was a poor night of execution which is going to happen.

Garcia gets the win tomorrow and the Sox come home 5-1 on the road trip. I'll take it.

Oh and another thing, Fick is back on top of my list of players I love to hate. What a ridiculous celebration.

Brian26
06-12-2005, 12:51 AM
How many players from that 03 team were on the field? Two?

Rowand, Crede, PK, Buehrle.

Tragg
06-12-2005, 12:51 AM
If Ozzie could manage a ****ing bullpen would we even feel the need to talk about the wild card AT ALL?

No.

I'd estimate that at least 1/4 of our losses have been of this variety - late in the game (perhaps last at bat) with dubious bullpen management. The good news is that it doesn't throw us into funks (i'll credit Guillen with that) - under Bevington or Lamont, we'd go on a 7 game losing streak.

johnny_mostil
06-12-2005, 12:51 AM
Doesn't matter how slow Paulie is. We would have lost 3-2 instead of 2-1 if he had scored. That 9th inning had U-G-L-Y written all over it.

I agree. Hermanson didn't exactly "have it".

But as for the play being close, I am not sure Hernandez even tagged Konerko. Diaz blew the call, like he blew multiple ball-strike calls all night for both sides. Ramon Hernandez spent the whole night framing pitches and making bush league appeals to the base umpires on checked swings and Diaz let him get away with all of it -- then gave him a cheap play at the plate call. Thank God Hermanson blew up fair and square or I would have had a stroke in my deep, unquenchable rage about getting shafted repeatedly on the West Coast.

TaylorStSox
06-12-2005, 12:52 AM
You're crazy! There's nothing you can do at all when a pitcher is dealing like this. An all-time, all-MLB all-star lineup with each individual player in their prime probably wouldn't even get a single hit off of Stauffer tonight. Not our fault at all.

So you're going to take the credit away from that kid that was dealing? That's just wrong in so many ways. He shuts down anybody tonight. He's got good stuff and some moxy.

MRKARNO
06-12-2005, 12:52 AM
If Ozzie could manage a ****ing bullpen would we even feel the need to talk about the wild card AT ALL?

No.

Yes because while we're on pace for 108 or so wins, the Twins are still on pace for 97.

AJPosguchi
06-12-2005, 12:52 AM
This is not a game that you should really get worked over about.

Disheartening? Irrelevant.

Is this a game we should have won? Definately

Does any team always win the games that they're supposed to? Only championship teams.

Will he be this awesome all year? Already is.

Did Ozzie mess up this game? No

Is there really a whole lot to be upset about? No.
?

cheeses_h_rice
06-12-2005, 12:52 AM
The fact that 100% of the wrong teams won today is what really burns us up.

Jesus, Viva, give it a rest.

The Red Sox losing HELPS the White Sox.

You are aware they're in the American League, right?

:rolleyes:

owensmouth
06-12-2005, 12:52 AM
Rowand, Crede, PK, Buehrle.You're blaming Buehrle?

SouthSide4Life
06-12-2005, 12:53 AM
Rowand, Crede, PK, Buehrle.PK:?:

PaulDrake
06-12-2005, 12:53 AM
Too bad he was safe I was wondering if anybody noticed that.

Viva Medias B's
06-12-2005, 12:54 AM
Just think of how many times all of the right teams have won in the same day.

Actually, I think 100% of the right teams winning happens less often than 100% of the wrong teams winning. I know that sounds weird considering how far up we on Minnesota and how far down the Cubs are behind St. Louis. I think it's the fact that ground is gained when partial right team victories occur.

Patrick134
06-12-2005, 12:54 AM
A 1-0 lead in the 9th in an away game against a very good team is hardly money in the bank. Give the Pads some credit. The Sox have won a lot of games like tonights, and they've lost some the same way. Obviously, they're way ahead so far. I was only listening on the radio, but i knew PK would be out ( havent seen it yet).

johnny_mostil
06-12-2005, 12:55 AM
So you're going to take the credit away from that kid that was dealing? That's just wrong in so many ways. He shuts down anybody tonight. He's got good stuff and some moxy.

I agree. Any pitcher who throws that breaking pitch with that control is going to be impossible to hit. He may never pitch that well again but tonight he was awesome.

Jjav829
06-12-2005, 12:55 AM
Well, if his feeling is that if he gives up a hit he'll take him out then balancing the chances of that versus a runner on 3rd, zero outs and the next guy up not a SF sort of hitter, then you pinch hit for him anyway; or you at least let MB swing the bat. What was a bunt going to do (I know, more 2 into scoring position but we needed at least 1).

Hermanson has pitched in 7/9 games and has been getting hit lately, including last night. Padres have seen this guy for years. Time to let someone else close. If we went by "he's the closer" theory religiously, Shingo would still be out there (egads) and foulke may still be setup man to bobby howry or both to billy bob simas.

And then you juxtapose this with the infamous Angels game when he absolutely refused to put Hermanson in even though Hermanson had like 4 days of rest and no one was coming close to hitting him.

The guy had thrown 7 innings of shutout baseball. His pitch count was at 94. You have runners on 1st and 3rd, 0 out. If you're not confident with Hermanson, then why do you want to pull Buehrle? To get to the closer you don't trust that much quicker? As much as Hermanson has worked, Cotts has worked just as much. Cotts has thrown 8 innings in the last 9 games, so he's not exactly fresh either. Does that mean you want Politte to work the final two innings?

It's the absolutely right move by Ozzie. It's just poor execution by Buehrle. He pitched a wonderful game by he needed to get that bunt down. And let's poor all the blame on the Sox. Otsuka is a very tough pitcher to face. He's similar to Shingo of last year. Most of the Sox players are seeing him for the first time and that can be very tough. There's no guarantee that any pinch hitter would have had a better result. So you stick with Buehrle and hope he can get the runner to 2nd and count on Pods and Iguchi to drive in at least one run. Neither of them got the job done.

South Side
06-12-2005, 12:55 AM
This is the kind of loss that stats corpseball losing streaks.in San Diego tonight causing the Twins to move closer in our rear view mirror.

:chunksGET A FREAKING GRIP!

Brian26
06-12-2005, 12:55 AM
You're blaming Buehrle?

Huh, no! I'm just making a point of the turnover from the 2003 team. It's a totally different team.

MRKARNO
06-12-2005, 12:55 AM
?

Even championship teams lose games they should win, just not in October

Viva Medias B's
06-12-2005, 12:55 AM
I was wondering if anybody noticed that.

He was safe, but it was a bang-bang play. Cora still should not have sent PK. It does provide a good argument for instant replay in baseball.

ilsox7
06-12-2005, 12:55 AM
Actually, I think 100% of the right teams winning happens less often than 100% of the wrong teams winning. I know that sounds weird considering how far up we on Minnesota and how far down the Cubs are behind St. Louis. I think it's the fact that ground is gained when partial right team victories occur.

Eh, we're the best team in baseball. We have a 4.5 game lead over what is probly the 3rd best team in baseball. I'm generally a happy camper these days. Plus, Boston losing today is not necessarily a bad thing for us.

ND_Sox_Fan
06-12-2005, 12:56 AM
While I agree with the griping about Ozzie (one of his worst performances of the year), Konerko should have been sent even if he was the guy out there. However, has Konerko ever heard of the proper way to slide? He had to know where the catcher was coming from, and a head first slide or a feet first slide to the pitcher's mound side of the plate where he could have tagged the plate with his hand and given less for Hernandez to tag was the proper way to get it done, and he would have been safe.

However, I do agree he should have had Ozuna run for PK and go in to play first. Also, if you are going to let Mark bat, let the man pitch. I don't care if someone got on or not. Let the man pitch.

Then if the arm chair QBs want, use Cliff to close this one out. It should have been a 3-0 win - at least.

fram40
06-12-2005, 12:56 AM
I don't think you can blame Cora. He's only doing what Ozzie wants - send everybody to put pressure on the defense. I've read that at least ten times about Cora/Ozzie, and it is amazing kow often bad throws are made. Keep sending him. PK scored from first on a double the other night, and from second on a single in the same game. I was thinking Cora was nuts both times, but he made it both times. They have been successful much more often on these plays than they have been caught.

A good throw would have gotten PK by 5 feet, but even with the bad throw, it was a bang-bang play that could have gone either way.

dcb33
06-12-2005, 12:56 AM
We just wasted 1/162nd of the entire season. In other words, who cares. Can't win 'em all. Win the series tomorrow.

I felt we were pushing our luck to win this one when we didn't score with runners at 1st and 3rd and nobody out. Night and day ballclub from yesterday. Can't win when you don't execute. And when you play every day, some days you're just not going to execute.


The Friars left 10 guys on base. It was just a matter of time before they'd string something together and lo and behold it was the bottom of the 9th.

No question the game was lost on the offensive side of the ball tonight. The Sox made a 21 year old kid look like Cy Young and squandered a couple of golden scoring opportunities, but it's not that a big deal becuase they're not going to get those clutch hits every single time in a close game.

The Sox have already guaranteed a winning road trip that involves the West Coast, something the team hasn't done in awhile. I'm satisfied with the trip as it is now, and winning tomorrow will just be icing on the cake.

TaylorStSox
06-12-2005, 12:56 AM
Actually, I think 100% of the right teams winning happens less often than 100% of the wrong teams winning. I know that sounds weird considering how far up we on Minnesota and how far down the Cubs are behind St. Louis. I think it's the fact that ground is gained when partial right team victories occur.

I'm so damned sick of hearing about the Cubs. Why don't you just go ahead and by your Cubs jersey and save the sadomasochistic **** for yourself.

ilsox7
06-12-2005, 12:56 AM
He was safe, but it was a bang-bang play. Cora still should not have sent PK. It does provide a good argument for instant replay in baseball.

No. No. No. No. That's an awful idea. Plus, the replay was totally inconclusive. But God no to instant replay.

PaulDrake
06-12-2005, 12:56 AM
Oh and another thing, Fick is back on top of my list of players I love to hate. What a ridiculous celebration. Wasn't he throwing cheap shots in that big brawl with the Tigers early in the 2000 season?

SouthSide4Life
06-12-2005, 12:56 AM
This is not a game that you should really get worked over about.

Disheartening? Yes.

Is this a game we should have won? Probably

Does any team always win the games that they're supposed to? Not even the 2001 Mariners.

Do we still have the best record in baseball? Um, yeah

Are we still safely in first place? 4.5 games isn't a tenous lead.

Is Buehrle awesome? You bet.

Will he be this awesome all year? Probably.

Are the Sox going to lose a lot of games like that? Not a whole lot.

Is it an embarrassment to lose to the Padres? Not at all.

Did Ozzie mess up this game? No

How many games are the Sox ahead of the WC second place team right now? 8.5

Is there really a whole lot to be upset about? No.I agree with all but 2 of your assessments, can you guess which ones????

soxtalker
06-12-2005, 12:57 AM
The closer situation is apparent from this game. Hermanson didn't have it tonight, but, more important, as others have pointed out, he hasn't really had it for several games. Shingo isn't back yet either. Ozzie won't make any changes for several more games, and, hopefully, one of those two guys will turn things around. But I'm not sure what the alternatives are if they can't.

mccoydp
06-12-2005, 12:57 AM
:fireozzie

Gosh, what cajones to put Hermanson on in the 9th for a save opportunity! What was he thinking?

Nard
06-12-2005, 12:57 AM
So you're going to take the credit away from that kid that was dealing? That's just wrong in so many ways. He shuts down anybody tonight. He's got good stuff and some moxy.

Not this night, this kid in particular. I'm stressing the point that mediocre, no-name rookie pitchers seem to have GREAT performances against this team for too often. There's no way it's a big coincidence.

MRKARNO
06-12-2005, 12:58 AM
I agree with all but 2 of your assessments, can you guess which ones????

No, tell me.

Brian26
06-12-2005, 12:58 AM
Wasn't he throwing cheap shots in that big brawl with the Tigers early in the 2000 season?

Yeah, and he walked back to the bullpen cursing and flippin' fans off like he was Stone Cold Steve Austin.

VivaOzzie
06-12-2005, 12:58 AM
Thats good. Teams know we're for real, and we're tough to beat. They have a right to be happy for now...now lets take the series tomorrow!

AJPosguchi
06-12-2005, 12:58 AM
Even championship teams lose games they should win, just not in October

EXACTLY!

Patrick134
06-12-2005, 12:58 AM
Every closer is going to have a few slumps. That's what made Gagne's long streak so remarkable. The Sox bullpen is fine.

ilsox7
06-12-2005, 12:58 AM
Not this night, this kid in particular. I'm stressing the point that mediocre, no-name rookie pitchers seem to have GREAT performances against this team for too often. There's no way it's a big coincidence.

We've played 61 games this season and both times we got shut down by yougn pitchers, they were flat-out dealing. This is not your 2003 or 2004 White Sox. It's a different team.

TaylorStSox
06-12-2005, 12:58 AM
And some of you have the nerve to think I'm paranoid when we blow games.

This guy's mocking you man. He's not serious.

South Side
06-12-2005, 12:59 AM
If Ozzie could manage a ****ing bullpen would we even feel the need to talk about the wild card AT ALL?

No.

You're kidding, right? Please tell me you're kidding.

johnny_mostil
06-12-2005, 12:59 AM
. Obviously, they're way ahead so far. I was only listening on the radio, but i knew PK would be out ( havent seen it yet).

So did Diaz -- I think that's why he blew the call. Don't watch it, it will turn your stomach. The throw was way off line, Hernandez dives back, misses the lead leg...

Brian26
06-12-2005, 12:59 AM
The great thing about keeping WGN on after the tough loss is being able to watch Shaq in this fabulous cinematic adaptation of "Steel".

cheeses_h_rice
06-12-2005, 12:59 AM
Wasn't he throwing cheap shots in that big brawl with the Tigers early in the 2000 season?

Yes he was.

He also threw a cheapshot arm at the Flubs first baseman while he was on the Braves during the 2003 NLDS, smacking the guy while he was trying to field the relay on a groundout.

In other words, he's a champion a-hole.

SouthSide4Life
06-12-2005, 01:00 AM
I'm so damned sick of hearing about the Cubs. Why don't you just go ahead and by your Cubs jersey and save the sadomasochistic **** for yourself.sadoma-who? PS:bluerockSTILL SUCK

Rocklive99
06-12-2005, 01:00 AM
Just shows how good a team we are,they knew they beat a topcalibar team, which really makes Nevin's comments look stupid, especailly after a first game loss. His comments also make this loss feel a lot worse for me.

ChiWhiteSox1337
06-12-2005, 01:00 AM
The Sox Need To Get Serious About Winning And That Won't Happen Until The Bad Players Are Shipped Out In Exchange For Good Players On The Cubs Or Somebody Else! Somebody Get Kw's Email And Send Him My Proposed Deal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe I Can Talk To Him On The Phone And Help Him Hammer Out A Deal With The Cubs Or Somebody Else Perhaps I Could Become His Assistant If I Get A Deal Done With Another Team Does Anybody Know The Cubs Gm's E-mail? I Need To Talk To Him And See What It Would Take For The Above Proposed Deal To Get Done!!!!!
Trade our "bad players" for good players? Brilliant! We have the GM of the year on our hands here, folks.

kitekrazy
06-12-2005, 01:00 AM
Gload would have been real nice. The lack of a 1st baseman really hurt us. 2-0 is a world away from 1-0.


15/16 saves doesn't warrant a need for a new closer. That's just stupid.


PK was out.

Great points. Also things could change fast if Paulie gets injured.

Jjav829
06-12-2005, 01:00 AM
Stop blaming PK! He's slow, but Cora has been stupid all season (and gotten lucky a lot), and after all that PK was safe. I don't see how it was as close as you people say, especially when you are the umpire, in perfect position, the play right in front, and being trained (or supposed to be) for those situations.

You're joking, right? First off, Konerko was out IMO. Second, the fact that even a very slow replay of the play isn't conclusive means you can't fully blame the ump. I watched all those replays and IMO Konerko was out. Now I understand that a lot of Sox fans watch those replays with a Sox bias and are just like the Padres fans who probably saw the replay of Nevin at 3B yesterday and thought he was safe. But the play was so close that even a replay isn't conclusive, yet you're expecting the umpire to make a different call?

CubsfansareDRUNK
06-12-2005, 01:01 AM
Anyone wanna come with me to the parking lot to discuss your favorite game show host?

Brian26
06-12-2005, 01:01 AM
Yes he was.

He also threw a cheapshot arm at the Flubs first baseman while he was on the Braves during the 2003 NLDS, smacking the guy while he was trying to field the relay on a groundout.

But that one was ok in my book :D:

TaylorStSox
06-12-2005, 01:01 AM
So did Diaz -- I think that's why he blew the call. Don't watch it, it will turn your stomach. The throw was way off line, Hernandez dives back, misses the lead leg...

I saw about 5 replays and he looked out to me. It doesn't matter though. Close plays like that can go either way. It's not Diaz fault. He was right where he should be and made a judgement call. It was a call I agreed with.

ilsox7
06-12-2005, 01:01 AM
This guy's mocking you man. He's not serious.

There's a reason teal is used around here. Don't use it and you're being serious.

spiffie
06-12-2005, 01:01 AM
I don't want to be labeled a "dark cloud" or anything, but I just really am curious if anyone knows how many times Konerko has been thrown out trying to go more than 1 base on a hit this year. Because it feels like I have seen that occurence WAY too many times. I love the aggressive style, but there is a point where you have to take into account who is involved in the play. Unless the ball disappears and turns up in another dimension it's not a good move to try and score PK from 1st to home. Keep him at 3rd, and let Dye hit with 2 men in scoring position.

Everything else, meh, it happens. Hermy will be fine, MB is awesome, and hopefully Freddy shuts the Friars down tomorrow. But Joey, please stop channeling Wendell Kim when Paulie is rounding 2nd and heading to 3rd!

owensmouth
06-12-2005, 01:02 AM
Huh, no! I'm just making a point of the turnover from the 2003 team. It's a totally different team.I agree, it's a different team. So how come KW needs to do something to change it again? Heck with it, the Sox are "into" almost every game. That means we're gonna be in tight nineth inning contests. Let's win tomorrow and get out of San Diego.

JB98
06-12-2005, 01:02 AM
Even championship teams lose games they should win, just not in October

Now, you're making too much damn sense. Every closer in the league will blow a save. Even the top teams lose leads in the ninth inning every now and then. We've played 61 games so far, and I think we only have two losses when leading after eight innings. That's pretty damn good. This a tough loss, but it happens.

The people who don't think Stauffer is good are kidding themselves. He was not just called up from the minors. He is a former first-round pick (2003) and an promising young pitcher. I tip my cap to him. He pitched great and kept his team in the game.

Jjav829
06-12-2005, 01:03 AM
So did Diaz -- I think that's why he blew the call. Don't watch it, it will turn your stomach. The throw was way off line, Hernandez dives back, misses the lead leg...

If you're looking for a tag on the lead leg, then that's why you think it was such an obvious call. Hernandez never tagged Konerko on the lead leg. He tagged him on the back leg that was bent under the lead leg. If you can watch that and honestly say it was such an obvious call, then you're not watching the replay correctly.

TaylorStSox
06-12-2005, 01:03 AM
There's a reason teal is used around here. Don't use it and you're being serious.

That's why it's called :dtroll:ing.

SouthSide4Life
06-12-2005, 01:03 AM
I don't think you can blame Cora. He's only doing what Ozzie wants - send everybody to put pressure on the defense. I've read that at least ten times about Cora/Ozzie, and it is amazing kow often bad throws are made. Keep sending him. PK scored from first on a double the other night, and from second on a single in the same game. I was thinking Cora was nuts both times, but he made it both times. They have been successful much more often on these plays than they have been caught.

A good throw would have gotten PK by 5 feet, but even with the bad throw, it was a bang-bang play that could have gone either way.Green made a beauty ofa throw and as for JC, im still gonna have to blame him. Besides, this is far from the only blunder he has made this year

The Racehorse
06-12-2005, 01:05 AM
How many players from that 03 team were on the field? Two?

Probably... but the point is that the Sox continue to make these pitchers look like Cy Young. That tells me there's a problem that has somehow continued from JM's tenure as manager to Ozzie's...

... who's going over the pitchers with our hitters prior to taking the field? Where is that information coming from and who is providing it? How long have the people doing the advance scouting been been in place? At this point, these are all legitimate questions.

If we lose to rookies with chubby ERA's or making their MLB debut that eventually go on to all-star caliber pitchers, fine. But losing to stiffs for 3 years who basically amount to fringe pitchers make me sick.

ND_Sox_Fan
06-12-2005, 01:06 AM
Probably... but the point is that the Sox continue to make these pitchers look like Cy Young. That tells me there's a problem that has somehow continued from JM's tenure as manager to Ozzie's...

... who's going over the pitchers with our hitters prior to taking the field? Where is that information coming from and who is providing it? How long have the people doing the advance scouting been been in place? At this point, these are all legitimate questions.

If we lose to rookies with chubby ERA's or making their MLB debut that eventually go on to all-star caliber pitchers, fine. But losing to stiffs for 3 years who basically amount to fringe pitchers make me sick.

Yeah - the scouting must not be the best, to say the least. Those are the hold-overs from 2003 we need to be talking about.

JB98
06-12-2005, 01:07 AM
I agree, it's a different team. So how come KW needs to do something to change it again? Heck with it, the Sox are "into" almost every game. That means we're gonna be in tight nineth inning contests. Let's win tomorrow and get out of San Diego.

Another point about us playing a lot of close games: Every time we do lose one, it's going to open Ozzie up to second-guessing, especially with regard to bullpen management. He still has his moments, such as the time he brought Walker in against the Angels, but he has gotten better. Really, it comes down to whether the pitcher he chooses executes. Hermy has made Ozzie look brilliant quite a bit this year. Just not tonight.

Hendu
06-12-2005, 01:08 AM
Konerko should have been sent even if he was the guy out there. However, has Konerko ever heard of the proper way to slide? He had to know where the catcher was coming from, and a head first slide or a feet first slide to the pitcher's mound side of the plate where he could have tagged the plate with his hand and given less for Hernandez to tag was the proper way to get it done, and he would have been safe..

Headfirst slide? Ouch, sliding into home headfirst is just an injury waiting to happen. While a hook slide may have gotten him in, the reality is he probably didn't have time to adjust. I'm sure his thought process went from 'I'm gonna be out by a mile' to 'the throw's going wide, I've got the entire plate open in front of me.' Unfortunately, the throw wasn't wide enough.

Cubbiesuck13
06-12-2005, 01:08 AM
39 quality starts so far this season. Awesome!

ilsox7
06-12-2005, 01:09 AM
Probably... but the point is that the Sox continue to make these pitchers look like Cy Young. That tells me there's a problem that has somehow continued from JM's tenure as manager to Ozzie's...

... who's going over the pitchers with our hitters prior to taking the field? Where is that information coming from and who is providing it? How long have the people doing the advance scouting been been in place? At this point, these are all legitimate questions.

If we lose to rookies with chubby ERA's or making their MLB debut that eventually go on to all-star caliber pitchers, fine. But losing to stiffs for 3 years who basically amount to fringe pitchers make me sick.

So no young, first round draft picks with bright futures can ever just flat-out deal against the Sox? Seriously, it's happened twice this year. And both times the guys were just awesome.

MRKARNO
06-12-2005, 01:09 AM
Headfirst slide? Ouch, sliding into home headfirst is just an injury waiting to happen.

Just ask Vlad Guerrero.

Viva Medias B's
06-12-2005, 01:10 AM
Pods thinks Ozzie could be fired before the next game? When did Steinbrenner buy us?

Seriously, with the season the Yankees have been having, I wonder if a Yankee loss like this would push George over the edge causing him to fire Torre.

Nard
06-12-2005, 01:10 AM
The great thing about going 1-1 in the first two games of a series is that Ozzie doesn't have the chance to throw yet another bat**** insane getaway lineup out there for game 3.

Or does he?

The Racehorse
06-12-2005, 01:10 AM
I agree. Any pitcher who throws that breaking pitch with that control is going to be impossible to hit. He may never pitch that well again but tonight he was awesome.

I'll give the kid credit... he pitched great and good for him.

Too bad this is the _____ time we've made a no-name look like Dizzy Dean.

ma_deuce
06-12-2005, 01:11 AM
Paulie is slow, but with two outs, you have to take chances. It was the right decision to send him home. It could have went either way, and unfortunately it went against us.

However, sending Buehrle out to bunt in the eighth with a one run lead was a mistake. We needed some insurance runs much more than we needed Beuhrle in the bottom of the eighth with a lead. Ozzie should have sent a pinch hitter. Or at least, he should have had Buerhle swinging. Fortunately, its an NL mistake and interleague in NL parks is one game from being over.

Deuce

Tragg
06-12-2005, 01:11 AM
What a shi%%y day. I watch the Green Wave get their a$$ kicked in 98 degree noontime heat, and watch the Sox lose in 72 degree air conditioning.

JB98
06-12-2005, 01:13 AM
So no young, first round draft picks with bright futures can ever just flat-out deal against the Sox? Seriously, it's happened twice this year. And both times the guys were just awesome.

Thank you. I made this point in the game thread. I posted it again here in the postgame thread. Apparently, a few idiots have yet to get the message.

Let me say it again, for those who can't read:

Stauffer is a promising 23-year-old with a good arm and good stuff. He was drafted in the first round for a reason. He was outstanding tonight. It wasn't a "failure by the Sox advance scouting department." It was great pitching. Tip your cap. Give some credit to the opponent.

ND_Sox_Fan
06-12-2005, 01:14 AM
Just ask Vlad Guerrero.

Just ask Robin about sliding in feet first. Sliding is not exactly the safest play in baseball either way you go about it.

You are right though, I would have rather seen a hook slide.

He was 3/4 the way up the line when he had to have seen Hernandez start to move over to catch the ball. It is not that difficult to read.

kitekrazy
06-12-2005, 01:14 AM
Exactly. Buehrle had put good wood on the ball earlier with a nice flyout to medium-deep center. Putting down a regular bunt is tough in that situation for a pitcher who rarely bats, but a squeeze is even tougher.

Agreed. Bunting is a lost art. Quite stupid to have an AL pitcher attempt. That is the situation where I flame Ozzie for.

Viva Medias B's
06-12-2005, 01:14 AM
What a shi%%y day. I watch the Green Wave get their a$$ kicked in 98 degree noontime heat, and watch the Sox lose in 72 degree air conditioning.

The baseball gods owe us their arses after today.

Jjav829
06-12-2005, 01:14 AM
Paulie is slow, but with two outs, you have to take chances. It was the right decision to send him home. It could have went either way, and unfortunately it went against us.

However, sending Buehrle out to bunt in the eighth with a one run lead was a mistake. We needed some insurance runs much more than we needed Beuhrle in the bottom of the eighth with a lead. Ozzie should have sent a pinch hitter. Or at least, he should have had Buerhle swinging. Fortunately, its an NL mistake and interleague in NL parks is one game from being over.

Deuce

No, it's not an NL mistake. That's a decision frequently made by NL managers. The difference is that an NL pitcher gets that bunt down 9 out of 10 times. If you want to blame Ozzie, blame him for not knowing what his personnel is capable of doing. But that's a managerial move often made in the NL. Like I said, the only problem is that NL pitchers work on bunting all the time and can get that bunt down, whereas AL pitchers don't work on bunting as often.

Mr. White Sox
06-12-2005, 01:16 AM
I'll give the kid credit... he pitched great and good for him.

Too bad this is the _____ time we've made a no-name look like Dizzy Dean.

the word is "upteenth" :smile:

props to burlymon, insane game, couldn't have asked for more.
In other news, Buster Olney on BBalltonight lists this game as his most important thing of the day, as it "salvages the entire weekend for SD." uhhh, isn't there another game left? :?: He also went on to say that he's not sure Hermanson can get it done in the bullpen, and goes on to mention Minnesota's bullpen as the epitome of excellence, and it's "1-2-3" with Nathan. While I don't completely disagree with him, isn't Hermanson 15/16 in saves? And aren't Politte, Cotts, and Marte just as reliable as Crain, Rincon, and Romero? I think the national media are just trying to find ways to mash the CWS. Meh, it's been going on for years, and the only thing this team can do to counter it is win. With the best record in MLB, what more can we as fans ask for?

Tragg
06-12-2005, 01:17 AM
No, it's not an NL mistake. That's a decision frequently made by NL managers. The difference is that an NL pitcher gets that bunt down 9 out of 10 times. If you want to blame Ozzie, blame him for not knowing what his personnel is capable of doing. But that's a managerial move often made in the NL. Like I said, the only problem is that NL pitchers work on bunting all the time and can get that bunt down, whereas AL pitchers don't work on bunting as often.

The idea is to get the run in - a bunt does nothing to accomplish that. Up 1 run, 1st and 3rd no one out and they bunt their pitcher? I doubt it.

MRKARNO
06-12-2005, 01:18 AM
In other news, Buster Olney on BBalltonight lists this game as his most important thing of the day, as it "salvages the entire weekend for SD." uhhh, isn't there another game left?

I think he's saying he expects the Sox to take the rubber match.

Jjav829
06-12-2005, 01:21 AM
The idea is to get the run in - a bunt does nothing to accomplish that. Up 1 run, 1st and 3rd no one out and they bunt their pitcher? I doubt it.

You don't understand the point of the bunt. It's not an attempt to get the run in. It's to move the runner on 1st into scoring position, thus putting runners on 2nd and 3rd with 1 out. You're entrusting your leadoff hitter to make some kind of contact and at the least put the ball on the ground to the right side so that one run scores. Even if the bunt doesn't work, your leadoff hitter still has to manage to get that run in. Pods failed to do so. Plain and simple.

The Racehorse
06-12-2005, 01:23 AM
Thank you. I made this point in the game thread. I posted it again here in the postgame thread. Apparently, a few idiots have yet to get the message.

Let me say it again, for those who can't read:

Stauffer is a promising 23-year-old with a good arm and good stuff. He was drafted in the first round for a reason. He was outstanding tonight. It wasn't a "failure by the Sox advance scouting department." It was great pitching. Tip your cap. Give some credit to the opponent.

Sure, the kid has the physical tools. But his ERA going into tonight's game was 4.55 which doesn't qualify as "great" by NL standards.

He made his pitches and was sharp as hell... kudos to him. Which I've said numerous times.

I'll the first to say I know nothing about a MLB team's structure or process when it comes to scouting or what a scout does exactly [besides take notes]
... if anyone can enlighten me.

Rocklive99
06-12-2005, 01:24 AM
I can't believe the AP doesn't have a pic of the play at the plate

Viva Medias B's
06-12-2005, 01:25 AM
I can't believe the AP doesn't have a pic of the play at the plate

:tool
"They have all been confiscated by my secret police."

ilsox7
06-12-2005, 01:26 AM
Sure, the kid has the physical tools. But his ERA going into tonight's game was 4.55 which doesn't qualify as "great" by NL standards.

He made his pitches and was sharp as hell... kudos to him. Which I've said numerous times.

I'll the first to say I know nothing about a MLB team's structure or process when it comes to scouting or what a scout does exactly [besides take notes]
... if anyone can enlighten me.

I think the whole point is when you are throwing an A curveball for strikes at any count and also throwing a fastball with movement, it doesn't matter one bit what any advance scout says, you're basically screwed.

Rocklive99
06-12-2005, 01:26 AM
You don't understand the point of the bunt. It's not an attempt to get the run in. It's to move the runner on 1st into scoring position, thus putting runners on 2nd and 3rd with 1 out. You're entrusting your leadoff hitter to make some kind of contact and at the least put the ball on the ground to the right side so that one run scores. Even if the bunt doesn't work, your leadoff hitter still has to manage to get that run in. Pods failed to do so. Plain and simple.

Late in the game, that situation, you can argue that you can't give up an out with the hope of advancing runners/others picking up the slack. You're already up 1, try to at least get the 1 extra run in!

Tragg
06-12-2005, 01:27 AM
You don't understand the point of the bunt. It's not an attempt to get the run in. It's to move the runner on 1st into scoring position, thus putting runners on 2nd and 3rd with 1 out. You're entrusting your leadoff hitter to make some kind of contact and at the least put the ball on the ground to the right side so that one run scores. Even if the bunt doesn't work, your leadoff hitter still has to manage to get that run in. Pods failed to do so. Plain and simple.

That's the point - there was NO POINT to the bunt - or better said, what the bunt could accomplish was completely secondary to the primary goal - getting an insurance run. He's worried about putting another runner into scoring position when you have an insurance run sitting on 3rd no outs? maybe that's conceivable - pods could either get a hit for 2 or SF for 1, but pods isn't exactly what you want for the SF either.

Let him hit or pinch hit.

And maybe I'm over-stereotyping, but when someone has to set up to bunt before the pitcher's in the set position, it's a decent clue that he can't bunt all that well.

Hendu
06-12-2005, 01:27 AM
He was 3/4 the way up the line when he had to have seen Hernandez start to move over to catch the ball. It is not that difficult to read.

:walnuts

"A hook slide? Who am I, Scott Posednik? Everyone should just be glad I made it home without falling over halfway down the third base line."

Rocklive99
06-12-2005, 01:27 AM
:tool
"They have all been confiscated by my secret police."

LOL, right next to the case of Sosa's corked bats

Jjav829
06-12-2005, 01:29 AM
Late in the game, that situation, you can argue that you can't give up an out with the hope of advancing runners/others picking up the slack. You're already up 1, try to at least get the 1 extra run in!

Well you're not just moving the runner. You are taking away the double play, thus increasing the chance that the next batter can get the runner in with a ground ball to the right side. Again, it's all reliant on execution. It's a fine decision if executed well. It wasn't executed properly though.

The Racehorse
06-12-2005, 01:30 AM
Thank you. I made this point in the game thread. I posted it again here in the postgame thread. Apparently, a few idiots have yet to get the message.

uh-huh... OK.

Jjav829
06-12-2005, 01:32 AM
That's the point - there was NO POINT to the bunt - or better said, what the bunt could accomplish was completely secondary to the primary goal - getting an insurance run. He's worried about putting another runner into scoring position when you have an insurance run sitting on 3rd no outs? maybe that's conceivable - pods could either get a hit for 2 or SF for 1, but pods isn't exactly what you want for the SF either.

Let him hit or pinch hit.

And maybe I'm over-stereotyping, but when someone has to set up to bunt before the pitcher's in the set position, it's a decent clue that he can't bunt all that well.

Yes, you are stereotyping. There are plenty of good bunters who show the bunt well in advance to get into proper position.

Second, we were only up one run. As we saw in the 9th, a 2-run lead meant nothing. The idea is to get both of those runs home with an understanding that if that fails, you should be able to get at least the runner from 3rd home. It failed because Pods couldn't put the ball in play.

Mr. White Sox
06-12-2005, 01:33 AM
Let him hit or pinch hit.


Agreed, more or less, although Buehrle did pitch quite well in the next 2/3 of an inning. Maybe Ozzie figured that Pods could've gotten the job done, or that Buehrle continuing to pitch was more important. Either way, it's the lovely 20/20 hindsight factor, because if Hermanson saves this game, we would make light on this point. Also, who's to say a run by the Sox would've done anything at all for this game? If they hypothetically manage to get another run, instead of a walk-off single in the 9th, it's a 2-2 ballgame, bases loaded 1 out in the ninth, and Hermanson is still struggling...hard to predict, hard to take when it goes wrong. Ah, the life of a fan :smile:.

fram40
06-12-2005, 01:33 AM
He also went on to say that he's not sure Hermanson can get it done in the bullpen, and goes on to mention Minnesota's bullpen as the epitome of excellence, and it's "1-2-3" with Nathan. While I don't completely disagree with him, isn't Hermanson 15/16 in saves? And aren't Politte, Cotts, and Marte just as reliable as Crain, Rincon, and Romero? I think the national media are just trying to find ways to mash the CWS. Meh, it's been going on for years, and the only thing this team can do to counter it is win. With the best record in MLB, what more can we as fans ask for?

I heard Bowa saythat as well, so I went and compared Nathan's stats to Herm's. Herm's stats are better across the board, except in Ks. Better WHIP, better BAA, fewer blown saves. So far this season Herm is better than Nathan. I wish those ESPN guys would look at stats before mouthing off. Since I loined this site, I am really starting to HATE, really hate, ESPN. And not just for their east coast bias. And wasn't Herm 19/20 in saves last year for SFG?

While I would have left Politte in, I don't think you can dis Herm, or Oz for bringing him in. 19/20 last year and 15/16 this year. Pretty damn good

JB98
06-12-2005, 01:34 AM
Sure, the kid has the physical tools. But his ERA going into tonight's game was 4.55 which doesn't qualify as "great" by NL standards.

He made his pitches and was sharp as hell... kudos to him. Which I've said numerous times.

I'll the first to say I know nothing about a MLB team's structure or process when it comes to scouting or what a scout does exactly [besides take notes]
... if anyone can enlighten me.

No, his ERA is not great, but that's typical of young pitchers. Sometimes they throw the ball like Stauffer threw tonight. Other times, the inexperience shows, and they get hit around despite the physical tools.

Look at Garland the last few seasons. Jon has always had physical tools, but his ERA was never great. He was maddening to watch because sometimes he'd dominate for six or seven innings, and other times he'd get knocked out by the fourth inning. For an opponent, it was just a matter of whether you caught him on a good night or a bad night.

That's the way we have to look at this. We ran into a young pitcher on a night where he was pitching up to his talent level.

Viva Medias B's
06-12-2005, 01:36 AM
:tomatoaward :tomatoaward

Hendu
06-12-2005, 01:37 AM
Sure, the kid has the physical tools. But his ERA going into tonight's game was 4.55 which doesn't qualify as "great" by NL standards.


It's tough to judge such a young pitcher making his 6th MLB start on his ERA. For example, B Mac's ERA probably doesn't look great after the outing in Texas, but we know he has the stuff to be called back up and dominate major league hitters.

The kid's performance was one of the better ones we've seen all year, along with Ervin Santana's...don't think scouting helps much in either case when you're up against someone who can locate all their pitches for strikes, change speeds and hit the corners at will.

ma_deuce
06-12-2005, 01:37 AM
No, it's not an NL mistake. That's a decision frequently made by NL managers. The difference is that an NL pitcher gets that bunt down 9 out of 10 times. If you want to blame Ozzie, blame him for not knowing what his personnel is capable of doing. But that's a managerial move often made in the NL. Like I said, the only problem is that NL pitchers work on bunting all the time and can get that bunt down, whereas AL pitchers don't work on bunting as often.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree, Jjav. IMHO, an NL manager would have pinch hit with a man on first and third with no outs and a one run lead... especially when the pitcher doesn't have a decent batting average. We needed the insurance run more than we needed Buerhle in the eighth. Ozzie knows this bullpen tends to get a bit shaky at times with one run leads, and should have done everything possible to bring in at least a run.

Deuce

Tragg
06-12-2005, 01:39 AM
LOL, right next to the case of Sosa's corked bats

You just hit on a pet peeve of mine from that incidenet. Everyone said "Well, he just had one corked BP bat, so it was an accident". That's backwards logic - if he had a CASE of corked bats then it could be an accident if there are that many mixed in. But because there was only 1, the odds of him picking that one were so small, that it proved he cheated. Yet, his apologists used it to exonerate him.

Sorry, irrelevant to the thread.

FarWestChicago
06-12-2005, 01:40 AM
Probably... but the point is that the Sox continue to make these pitchers look like Cy Young. That tells me there's a problem that has somehow continued from JM's tenure as manager to Ozzie's... Do you know what the A in ERA stands for? The kid had a great game. Deal with it.

ilsox7
06-12-2005, 01:40 AM
We are just going to have to agree to disagree, Jjav. IMHO, an NL manager would have pinch hit with a man on first and third with no outs and a one run lead... especially when the pitcher doesn't have a decent batting average. We needed the insurance run more than we needed Buerhle in the eighth. Ozzie knows this bullpen tends to get a bit shaky at times with one run leads, and should have done everything possible to bring in at least a run.

Deuce

I think if there is 1 out, he pinch hits. But with no outs, he is figuring worst case is Pods up with 1st and 3rd and 1 out. Pods is tough to double up, so it is quite likely he gets the run in. It didn't happen tonight. So be it. I am sure Ozzie is out drinking right now while people here are all worried about this. I love that irony.

johnny_mostil
06-12-2005, 01:41 AM
I saw about 5 replays and he looked out to me. It doesn't matter though. Close plays like that can go either way. It's not Diaz fault. He was right where he should be and made a judgement call. It was a call I agreed with.

How can you say he looked out? Sorry, I just didn't see that at all.

However, Hermanson made it not matter as it turned out. That was, by the way, the first home run allowed by Dustin this year.

Lip Man 1
06-12-2005, 01:43 AM
A few points...

Talk all you want about the 9th inning but the fact is if the Sox score a run in the 8th with first and third and ZERO outs, it's a completely different game.

The question was posed about 'late' losses. I'm not sure what your definition is but the Sox have now lost 6 games where they took a lead into the 7th inning or later. 2 of them took place in the 9th inning, 4 took place in the 7th inning.

One thing to keep an eye on...three of those 'blown games' have come since May 26th or the last 14 games.

To be fair the Sox have trailed in the 7th inning or later and won 10 games this season.

Get em' tomorrow. (and yes the Sox need another arm in the bullpen...)

Lip

The Racehorse
06-12-2005, 01:43 AM
No, his ERA is not great, but that's typical of young pitchers. Sometimes they throw the ball like Stauffer threw tonight. Other times, the inexperience shows, and they get hit around despite the physical tools.

Look at Garland the last few seasons. Jon has always had physical tools, but his ERA was never great. He was maddening to watch because sometimes he'd dominate for six or seven innings, and other times he'd get knocked out by the fourth inning. For an opponent, it was just a matter of whether you caught him on a good night or a bad night.

That's the way we have to look at this. We ran into a young pitcher on a night where he was pitching up to his talent level.

Everything you said makes perfect sense.

But I'd like to know why we 'seemingly' struggle against these guys. My question wouldn't be something I'd expect Ozzie to address, but the up the chain of command. Maybe there's nothing to it and it's just a fan's perception that we struggle the last few years against rookie pitchers.

I just think asking where scouting data comes from and who provides it are legitimate questions.

tstrike2000
06-12-2005, 01:45 AM
Poor execution all night, Shingo should have been in for the 9th. Padres are too familiar with Hermanson and he's been off the past few games.

Hermanson's been off, but Shingo's frisbee has been 8 feet outside and his fastball has been waist high and into the outfield stands for a HR. Politte maybe could've stayed in to try and finish out the 9th. But woulda, shoulda, coulda, just have to take the series tomorrow.

FarWestChicago
06-12-2005, 01:47 AM
But I'd like to know why we 'seemingly' struggle against these guys.The answer is simple. The 2005 Sox don't. You are conditioned to "see" it by the performance of past Sox teams. It's all in your mind. :D:

Cubbiesuck13
06-12-2005, 01:49 AM
Sure, the kid has the physical tools. But his ERA going into tonight's game was 4.55 which doesn't qualify as "great" by NL standards.

He made his pitches and was sharp as hell... kudos to him. Which I've said numerous times.

I'll the first to say I know nothing about a MLB team's structure or process when it comes to scouting or what a scout does exactly [besides take notes]
... if anyone can enlighten me.

I guess this is how team's who lost to Danny Wright feel.

Tragg
06-12-2005, 01:51 AM
Yes, you are stereotyping. There are plenty of good bunters who show the bunt well in advance to get into proper position.

Second, we were only up one run. As we saw in the 9th, a 2-run lead meant nothing. The idea is to get both of those runs home with an understanding that if that fails, you should be able to get at least the runner from 3rd home. It failed because Pods couldn't put the ball in play.

We'll just have to disagree. Good discussion though.

Now, about bringing in a weary hermanson to start the ninth...........nah, I'll leave it alone and go to bed.

The Racehorse
06-12-2005, 01:53 AM
Do you know what the A in ERA stands for? The kid had a great game. Deal with it.

I've said he had a great game.

I'm just trying to think "outside the box" by asking why we struggle against pitchers that fall into Stauffer's demographic.

Mr. White Sox
06-12-2005, 01:53 AM
Now, about bringing in a weary hermanson to start the ninth...........

If Philly can bring in Urbina instead of Wagner for a game, why can't we...never mind. Bedtime.

Jjav829
06-12-2005, 01:54 AM
FWIW, the replay of the Sox game is up on MLB.TV. I just went back and look at the Konerko slide. He was out. I have a freeze frame of it that shows that Konerko is out by about a half an inch. I tried to do a screen capture of it so that I could post it but unfortunately MLB.TV has something in place to where you can't capture images of the video. If anyone knows a way that I could save this frame, let me know. I think it's worth everyone seeing again.

Hendu
06-12-2005, 02:01 AM
I just think asking where scouting data comes from and who provides it are legitimate questions.

I'd imagine in this case a lot if the scouting would be more along the lines of the coaching staff and players watching some game film of the pitcher (for example, Podsednik would spend time watching his pick-off moves and timing his delivery; Pauly et al would be looking for certain pitches he likes to throw when the count's 2-0 or 0-2 etc). The coaching staff probably takes a look at his staistics (what does he do against lefties, does he throw a lot of strikes so we should be agressive or does he have control issues and we should be patient etc).

As far as actual scouting goes, I think they send advance scouts to watch certain pitchers and compile scouting reports.

kevingrt
06-12-2005, 02:10 AM
FWIW, the replay of the Sox game is up on MLB.TV. I just went back and look at the Konerko slide. He was out. I have a freeze frame of it that shows that Konerko is out by about a half an inch. I tried to do a screen capture of it so that I could post it but unfortunately MLB.TV has something in place to where you can't capture images of the video. If anyone knows a way that I could save this frame, let me know. I think it's worth everyone seeing again.

Still doesn't change the fact that PK is the slowest man on the face of the earth, and maybe a pinch runner would have been nice. But then again everything is 20-20 in hindsight.

Still PK needs to get a rocket launcher up his behind.

Hendu
06-12-2005, 02:18 AM
Still doesn't change the fact that PK is the slowest man on the face of the earth, and maybe a pinch runner would have been nice. But then again everything is 20-20 in hindsight.

Still PK needs to get a rocket launcher up his behind.

Ozzie couldn't pinch run for Pauly because whoever replaced him in the field would be a major downgrade defensively (no teal; we know what Frank and Timo are capable of at 1b).

jdm2662
06-12-2005, 02:20 AM
Eh, tough one to lose, but you are playing a first place team at their home stadium. Scoring one run isn't going to cut it. What's even worse, they scored it on the second batter of the game. If you are going to lose a game like this, it's better to lose against an NL team than a team in your division.

PK was out by an eye lash. Even if he scores, they would still lose. So, it's moot point. Sending him home wasn't very smart. A good throw, and he's out by about ten feet. Joey, please don't turn into waving Wendel.

Hermanson needs some time off. He doesn't look right out there. Was it just me, or was his fast ball barely over 86MPH?

Things like this happen, and when you don't put good teams away, they will find a win to win. Hope Freddy is still in good form tommorrow.
________
Volcano Vaporizer Reviews (http://vaporizer.org/reviews/volcano)

StockdaleForVeep
06-12-2005, 02:22 AM
This game exposed one of our weaknesses- no back up 1st baseman that can play the field. If Frank or Gload are healthy, someone pinch runs for Paulie and maybe we go to extras.

And in extra's we have no PK batting for us and are u insunuating frank to run for PK?

No deal

StockdaleForVeep
06-12-2005, 02:24 AM
Ozzie's a moron. Hermanson sucks. Konerko can't run. With crap like this we'll never win 120 games!

Did jeff brantley hack JJav's account?

dcb33
06-12-2005, 02:28 AM
Still doesn't change the fact that PK is the slowest man on the face of the earth, and maybe a pinch runner would have been nice. But then again everything is 20-20 in hindsight.

Still PK needs to get a rocket launcher up his behind.

You've got to play the cards you're dealt. Cora could've held up Paulie, but with 2 outs and swing-happy Uribe due up at the plate against San Diego pitching which had been striking out Sox batters left and right, the odds of plating the run by sending Paulie were better than holding him on 3rd and waiting for a hit. It was a close play, and unfortunately Paulie came up just short.

There's a game tomorrow, and with Freddy headed to the mound I feel pretty good about the Sox chances of taking the series and going 5-1 on their west coast road trip.

FarWestChicago
06-12-2005, 02:38 AM
I'm just trying to think "outside the box" by asking why we struggle against pitchers that fall into Stauffer's demographic.And as I said in another post you are "thinking inside an old box" related to past teams and not this one. Let it go. You'll feel better. :cool:

Jjav829
06-12-2005, 02:38 AM
Ok, well I managed to get a screen capture of the slide. Unfortunately, I can't get it in the blown up view which provides the best shot. Keep in mind the tag was applied on Konerko's right knee/thigh and not on his lead leg which touched the plate. IMO, this shows that he is out. At the very least, it shows that you cannot argue that Diaz blew this play. It was so close that even a slow motion replay capturing the tag doesn't show for sure whether he was safe or out. One thing to clarify is that his right leg is not flush with his left leg. Do not assume that his right leg is the same distance away because it isn't. As Konerko slides, his right leg actually juts out toward the catcher. The replay of the slide is much clearer about this. I actually have a 7 second video clip of the slide which I might post a link for if enough people want it.

http://home.comcast.net/~jjav829/konerkoslide.JPG

WhiteSox16K
06-12-2005, 02:39 AM
Welcome back to California! God, I hate that state.
Oh well, hopefully Freddy will go and shut down the Padres tommorow - much like Buehrle did today. Tough loss, but there's always a few of these out of 162. This also just reminded me of another reason why I hate waiting until 9 to see the Sox play on the left coast.

The Wimperoo
06-12-2005, 02:40 AM
Stauffer is a stud. He wouldn't be in the majors at this point in his career if he wasn't. He was dealing tonight. The Sox had their chances in the 1st inning to do something, and then in the 8th. They didn't capitalize, and Hermanson couldn't bail them out. Crap happens, it sucks, but it still happens. Still the best team in baseball.

Here's some good notes on Stauffer.
San Diego Padres (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/team_audit.php?team=sdp): A quick lesson in reading stats to get a picture of a pitcher: Below you'll find a simplified record of Padres fifth starter Tim Stauffer (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pecota/staufti01.php)'s career. What do the raw numbers tell us?
Tim Stauffer, RHP
Drafted #4 Overall, 2003
Year Level ERA IP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 SO/9
-----------------------------------------------
2002 NCAA 1.54 146.0 6.8 0.3 2.1 8.6
2003 NCAA 1.97 114.0 6.9 0.4 1.5 11.5
2004 A 1.78 35.1 7.1 0.0 2.3 7.6
2004 AA 2.63 51.1 9.8 0.5 2.3 5.8
2004 AAA 3.54 81.1 9.2 1.7 2.9 5.5
2005 AAA 2.33 38.2 7.9 0.2 1.9 7.3
2005 MLB 4.55 29.2 9.4 0.6 3.6 5.2

First, from the draft position and the college lines it's pretty clear that we're looking at his school's cce. Pretty much everything across that 2002-3 lines looks beautiful, except perhaps the innings pitched figures. We can't tell from his college line whether he played in post-season or summer league ball, but if that's added to the 260 college innings in two years (in addition to exhibition games before the season) it looks a little frightening. Remember that even top college programs rarely play more than 60 games in a season, and starts are usually disproportionately distributed to the best pitchers. The lack of a 2003 professional debut gives us an additional clue that workload was a concern.

In Stauffer's case there was actually an injury issue. During the contract negotiations following the draft, Stauffer and his agent admitted to Padres officials that an MRI had shown weakness in his throwing shoulder. Instead of netting something like the $2,750,000 that his slot that year should have earned, Stauffer ended up with $750,000, nine months of rest, and reportedly, the esteem and admiration of his new team for his honesty.

The professional stat lines in 2004 give us more of a picture of what type of pitcher Stauffer is. The respectable--but by no means electric--strikeout rates, along with impressive walk rates and outstanding home-run rates figures clearly peg our man as a control artist. He probably has a decent fastball, in fact, his fourth overall draft position almost certainly means his fastball is at least hits 90-91, but it's unlikely with those strikeout rates that he's throwing anything much harder than that. We can also expect that he has a strong and varied arsenal of secondary pitches, as a well-located fastball is simply not enough to succeed at the higher levels of the minor leagues.

Moving through three levels in one season is an extraordinarily fast rise, even for an early draft pick coming out of a top-shelf college program. It's shouldn't be a concern that some of his figures slipped a touch at Triple-A at the end of his first professional year; it's hard to move through three different teams, with three different sets of opponents and ballparks, and not scuffle a little bit at times. For exactly that reason we argued in BP2005 (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/book/) that Stauffer needed more time to consolidate his progress at Triple-A. The 2005 Triple-A line shows he did just that: given a rest and a chance to hit the league again Stauffer dropped his ERA more than a full run per nine, all while raising the strikeout rate and lowering the tater and walk rates. The MLB slip is again probably nothing to be too concerned with. Even the most impressive college prospects can be expected to see some erosion upon their professional debuts. Everything in the MLB line indicates that at less than two years from draft day, and with a nine-month hiatus from pitching, you've got your hands on an above-average starting pitcher who could potentially become much much more than that. The injuries to Tim Redding (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/redditi01.shtml) and Woody Williams (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/williwo02.shtml) gave Stauffer his shot, but someone in the rotation (Redding or Darrell May (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/mayda02.shtml) likely) is probably out of a job when their DL stint is done. The only caveat is that Stauffer's starts have come against Cincinnati, Chicago, Atlanta, San Francisco and Seattle. Those teams rank 11th, 14th, 22nd, 21st and 28th in MLB in Adjusted Equivalent Runs Scored (AEQR (http://baseballprospectus.com/glossary/index.php?mode=viewstat&stat=9)), which measures how many runs a team should have scored based on their basic stat line, adjusted for quality of opponent pitching. For a full assessment of Tim Stauffer we'll need to see how he throws against tougher hitters.

dcb33
06-12-2005, 02:41 AM
Ok, well I managed to get a screen capture of the slide. Unfortunately, I can't get it in the blown up view which provides the best shot. Keep in mind the tag was applied on Konerko's right knee/thigh and not on his lead leg which touched the plate. IMO, this shows that he is out. At the very least, it shows that you cannot argue that Diaz blew this play. It was so close that even a slow motion replay capturing the tag doesn't show for sure whether he was safe or out. One thing to clarify is that his right leg is not flush with his left leg. Do not assume that his right leg is the same distance away because it isn't. As Konerko slides, his right leg actually juts out toward the catcher. The replay of the slide is much clearer about this. I actually have a 7 second video clip of the slide which I might post a link for if enough people want it.

http://home.comcast.net/~jjav829/konerkoslide.JPG

Agreed. Neither camera angle the Sox camera crew had on the play was as good as the view the umpire had. No one can really argue a call when they don't have as good a view of the play as the umpire did.

FarWestChicago
06-12-2005, 02:43 AM
Ok, well I managed to get a screen capture of the slide. Unfortunately, I can't get it in the blown up view which provides the best shot. Keep in mind the tag was applied on Konerko's right knee/thigh and not on his lead leg which touched the plate. IMO, this shows that he is out. At the very least, it shows that you cannot argue that Diaz blew this play. It was so close that even a slow motion replay capturing the tag doesn't show for sure whether he was safe or out. One thing to clarify is that his right leg is not flush with his left leg. Do not assume that his right leg is the same distance away because it isn't. As Konerko slides, his right leg actually juts out toward the catcher. The replay of the slide is much clearer about this. I actually have a 7 second video clip of the slide which I might post a link for if enough people want it.

http://home.comcast.net/%7Ejjav829/konerkoslide.JPGFrom that picture it is even more apparent that Paulie felt it wouldn't have been fair to slide to the inside of the plate and avoid that tag. That's just not something stand up players would do to the other team. Only a scumbag like Uribe would go to those lengths to win a game.

ShoelessJoeS
06-12-2005, 02:51 AM
just got home and didnt see a minute of the game...from the looks of things, i didnt miss much. but i hear paulies slow, what else is new? :angry:

Unregistered
06-12-2005, 02:51 AM
FWIW, the replay of the Sox game is up on MLB.TV. I just went back and look at the Konerko slide. He was out. I have a freeze frame of it that shows that Konerko is out by about a half an inch. I tried to do a screen capture of it so that I could post it but unfortunately MLB.TV has something in place to where you can't capture images of the video. If anyone knows a way that I could save this frame, let me know. I think it's worth everyone seeing again.Best I can do...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2959
Looks out to me, but what the hell do I know.

On second look, it's almost too close to call - that first shot looks like he got his knee right before PK touched home, but even that's too close to say for certain.

Tough call that could've gone either way. PK's reputation for being the slowest "athlete" on planet earth may have weighed in on the call.

Jjav829
06-12-2005, 02:53 AM
Best I can do...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2959
Looks out to me, but what the hell do I know.

The top one is good for pointing out what I was saying about Konerko's knee being out from his body. Add that to the shot I posted and I would say he's out.

http://home.comcast.net/~jjav829/konerkoslide.JPG

Shorty1983
06-12-2005, 02:53 AM
Guys it's all my fault, I swear I would never say something like this until after the game. But as I was watching the top 9th, I said to my bro "no sweat we got this game, hermie hasn't let a longball" and then "BOOM" Hernandez hits one. I was disgusted at myself, I'm not a superstitious person but i truly believe I jinxed us. After the game was over, I got a beat down. Mark my word, I will never open my mouth again.

Let's get em' tomorrow boys. Tacos on me.

Rocklive99
06-12-2005, 02:57 AM
I say safe, I don't trust you image doctors!

Guys it's all my fault, I swear I would never say something like this until after the game. But as I was watching the top 9th, I said to my bro "no sweat we got this game, hermie hasn't let a longball" and then "BOOM" Hernandez hits one. I was disgusted at myself, I'm not a superstitious person but i truly believe I jinxed us. After the game was over, I got a beat down. Mark my word, I will never open my mouth again.

Let's get em' tomorrow boys. Tacos on me.

You son of a bitch

Goodnight

elrod
06-12-2005, 02:59 AM
Please stop fixating on Paulie's slide or Buehrle's bunt "attempt" or Ozzie's decision to keep Buehrle in there. We lost because Pods couldn't get the job done after Buehrle struck out. But more, we lost because Hermy just fell apart in the 9th. First there was a nice pop out. Then a home run, a single, another single, an intentional walk, and then another single. If we had been up 3-0, we would have lost that game 4-3 in the 9th. Hermanson was getting nobody out, period. The debate we should be having is whether or not Ozzie should have left Politte out there another inning or brought in Hermy.

ShoelessJoeS
06-12-2005, 03:04 AM
The debate we should be having is whether or not Ozzie should have left Politte out there another inning or brought in Hermy.
sounds like to me that the padres know hermy all too well, politte has been a stud lately...but ozzies the man and he makes the decisions

Unregistered
06-12-2005, 03:07 AM
Please stop fixating on Paulie's slide or Buehrle's bunt "attempt" or Ozzie's decision to keep Buehrle in there. We lost because Pods couldn't get the job done after Buehrle struck out. But more, we lost because Hermy just fell apart in the 9th. First there was a nice pop out. Then a home run, a single, another single, an intentional walk, and then another single. If we had been up 3-0, we would have lost that game 4-3 in the 9th. Hermanson was getting nobody out, period. The debate we should be having is whether or not Ozzie should have left Politte out there another inning or brought in Hermy.
But things like calls going certain ways and guys getting thrown out at the plate change the momentum of the game.

Yes, Hermanson just didn't have it tonight (and as I said earlier, anyone who's been paying attention knows that he's been getting hit a lot lately) but who knows what happens if Politte is left in for the 9th. There was literally NO room for error, and had Politte gotten into trouble and lost the game (or even tied it), this thread would have been twice as long - blaming Ozzie for not going with his closer who has converted 15 or 15 up until this point.

IowaSox1971
06-12-2005, 03:09 AM
The second-guessing in this thread is ridiculous. Here's why:

1) It was absolutely the right move for Cora to send Konerko. If you hold the guy at third with two outs, and a .240 hitter follows, then there's only about a 24 percent chance of scoring that run. Or, with the slight possibility of a balk or wild pitch, it might be, at best, 30 percent. Those are not good odds. The chances of Konerko scoring on that play were better than 30 percent. Oftentimes, the throw is off-line (as it was) or the catcher fails to hold onto the ball. If the third-base coach knows it is going to at least be a close play at home, he should, in most cases, send the runner when there are two outs.
If holding Konerko would have left the bases loaded, then a case possibly could have been made for not sending him, because then a subsequent walk would have given us a run. But that was not the situation.

2) Buehrle should have hit for himself in the eighth. He had thrown seven shutout innings, so it was logical to think he also could throw a scoreless eighth. Keep in mind that, with Marte ailing, our bullpen is a little short-handed for this series.

3) It was fine to have Buehrle bunt. He was basically up there to move the guy on first to second. There is nothing wrong with that. National League teams do that a lot. That would have given us second and third with one out, and then we don't have Buehrle wearing himself out by running the bases, etc. Podsednik or Iguchi should have been able to get the man in from third. Blame them for our failure to score that inning.

4) Hermanson was the guy to bring in. He had not blown a save all year. He had just saved a one-run game in Colorado earlier in the week, and the Padres' run that they had scored off him on Friday was unearned. Politte often does not pitch well in his second inning of work, and he has struggled as a closer during his career. Setup men (see LaTroy Hawkins) often are not as effective when they have to close, so Politte should not have been used in the ninth. Also, Shingo's recent outings have not shown that he is ready to resume any closing duties. He might be ready for that in another few weeks, but he's not ready for it now. How can anyone question bringing in a guy who was 15 for 15 in save opportunities?

5) The San Diego starter threw a great game. There's not much we could have done differently, except perhaps not try to pull him as much. But that's easier said than done.

TaylorStSox
06-12-2005, 03:16 AM
The second-guessing in this thread is ridiculous. Here's why:

1) It was absolutely the right move for Cora to send Konerko. If you hold the guy at third with two outs, and a .240 hitter follows, then there's only about a 24 percent chance of scoring that run. Or, with the slight possibility of a balk or wild pitch, it might be, at best, 30 percent. Those are not good odds. The chances of Konerko scoring on that play were better than 30 percent. Oftentimes, the throw is off-line (as it was) or the catcher fails to hold onto the ball. If the third-base coach knows it is going to at least be a close play at home, he should, in most cases, send the runner when there are two outs.
If holding Konerko would have left the bases loaded, then a case possibly could have been made for not sending him, because then a subsequent walk would have given us a run. But that was not the situation.

2) Buehrle should have hit for himself in the eighth. He had thrown seven shutout innings, so it was logical to think he also could throw a scoreless eighth. Keep in mind that, with Marte ailing, our bullpen is a little short-handed for this series.

3) It was fine to have Buehrle bunt. He was basically up there to move the guy on first to second. There is nothing wrong with that. National League teams do that a lot. That would have given us second and third with one out, and then we don't have Buehrle wearing himself out by running the bases, etc. Podsednik or Iguchi should have been able to get the man in from third. Blame them for our failure to score that inning.

4) Hermanson was the guy to bring in. He had not blown a save all year. He had just saved a one-run game in Colorado earlier in the week, and the Padres' run that they had scored off him on Friday was unearned. Politte often does not pitch well in his second inning of work, and he has struggled as a closer during his career. Setup men (see LaTroy Hawkins) often are not as effective when they have to close, so Politte should not have been used in the ninth. Also, Shingo's recent outings have not shown that he is ready to resume any closing duties. He might be ready for that in another few weeks, but he's not ready for it now. How can anyone question bringing in a guy who was 15 for 15 in save opportunities?

5) The San Diego starter threw a great game. There's not much we could have done differently, except perhaps not try to pull him as much. But that's easier said than done.

I love this guy!!!

StockdaleForVeep
06-12-2005, 03:25 AM
Best I can do...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2959
Looks out to me, but what the hell do I know.

On second look, it's almost too close to call - that first shot looks like he got his knee right before PK touched home, but even that's too close to say for certain.

Tough call that could've gone either way. PK's reputation for being the slowest "athlete" on planet earth may have weighed in on the call.


http://www.bilbocine.com/jfk_caso_abierto.jpg
"Back....and to the right.....back....and to the right"

Nellie_Fox
06-12-2005, 03:36 AM
Paulie is the slowest men in the world Holy crap, he's more than one man???

Nellie_Fox
06-12-2005, 03:38 AM
This game exposed one of our weaknesses- no back up 1st baseman that can play the field. If Frank or Gload are healthy, someone pinch runs for Paulie and maybe we go to extras.Yeah, exactly what I told my wife when he got on. I said "aw crap, we can't pinch run for Paulie because there's no one to play defense in the bottom half, and Paulie is going to clog up the bases."

Nellie_Fox
06-12-2005, 03:47 AM
LOL, tell that to Mullet Brantley.Oh, no, I'm sure Brantley will say that this proves his point. Ozzie didn't use Hermanson when he should have, then used him when he shouldn't (in a non-save situation, where he gave up his first earned runs) thus destroying his confidence. He's been no good since, and I'm sure he'd say it's Ozzie's fault. The psyche of a closer is so delicate that once it's damaged, there's no fixing it.

Nellie_Fox
06-12-2005, 03:51 AM
By far the worst managed game of baseball I've ever seen. Now there's a controlled, understated, analysis of the game. :rolleyes:

Nellie_Fox
06-12-2005, 03:54 AM
Among his blunders:



Not pinch running for Konerko in the 9th inning.
And who would you have had playing first in the bottom half? Timo has already proven that putting him there is not a good idea.

shoota
06-12-2005, 03:55 AM
Well, let me say this. If one good thing comes out of this game, it's the fact that the Padres just had a post-game celebration like they had won the ****ing World Series, complete with Fick jumping on top of the pile like a 12-year old. I'll take that as the ultimate sign of respect towards the Chicago White Sox franchise, who still hold the best record in baseball.


Yeah, I noticed Fick's celebration and thought it was "over-the-top." Sorry. I would have laughed if he had gotten injured Gramattica style with such boisterous celebration.

Nellie_Fox
06-12-2005, 03:59 AM
Actually, I don't know why Buehrle was bunting there b/c only a perfect bunt would have scored Uribe if he was waiting for contact.They weren't squeezing; they were trying to make it second and third with one out. I would have put Frank in at that moment, but, hey, that's just me.

shoota
06-12-2005, 04:03 AM
Podsednik cannot stand there like the house along the side of the road as strike three passes in front of him. With his speed, he's unlikely to hit into a double play, and likely to score a run. He needs to foul that off or put that pitch in play.

racehorse is right about questioning the advance scouting. I've been wondering about that since 2003.

On BBTN, the moderator said something like, "The Sox are paying for not having a true closer." Uh, 15 saves in 16 opportunities you ignorant *******. As someone pointed out in this thread, Hermanson was also very successful in save opportunites last season.

You guys are right about not having a backup first baseman. Gload would have scored. Good call.

I feel bad for Buehrle tonight. I don't think this is true, but someone told me tonight that it's been 4 straight no decisions for Buehrle. Is that true?

Wheels was safe.

4.5

FarWestChicago
06-12-2005, 04:14 AM
Oh, no, I'm sure Brantley will say that this proves his point. Ozzie didn't use Hermanson when he should have, then used him when he shouldn't (in a non-save situation, where he gave up his first earned runs) thus destroying his confidence. He's been no good since, and I'm sure he'd say it's Ozzie's fault. The psyche of a closer is so delicate that once it's damaged, there's no fixing it.LOL, I thought of that after I posted. I don't know, there must be something about having a mullet in the 21st century that makes one incredibly smart. :redneck

shoota
06-12-2005, 04:16 AM
Yeah, and he walked back to the bullpen cursing and flippin' fans off like he was Stone Cold Steve Austin.

:rolling:
The great thing about goine 1-1 in the first two games of a series is that Ozzie doesn't have the chance to throw yet another bat**** insane getaway lineup out there for game 3.

Or does he?

hahaha, I'm only half laughing because I know that Ozzie might put that getaway lineup in.

shoota
06-12-2005, 04:24 AM
is it just me and that one espn announcer that sees Kahlil Green has a striking resemblance to Jeff Spicoli? an espn announcer commented on that on Wednesday Night Baseball when they played the Injuns

I've been saying the same thing since last season.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000035Z3J.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2005/04/05/gnAxfXmE.jpg

The similarities between Spicoli and Greene are Awesome! Totally Awesome!