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mweflen
06-09-2005, 09:40 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-050608soxgamer,1,3739319.story?page=1&coll=cs-home-headlines



"I just want to win series," Guillen said after the game. "Sweeping is nice, but I like to win series."

Ozzie drives me ****ing crazy some times. Giving away every third game is almost as bad as giving away every fifth (last year, minus 5th starter).

If the Twinks don't have as many "series wins", but have more wins in the end because they cared about sweeping, we'll be just as dead in October.

"Series wins." What a stupid concept. This is a 162 game series. "Series wins" only count in the playoffs.

:angry:Venting complete.:angry:

mweflen
06-09-2005, 09:45 AM
I'm all for getting guys rest and playing reserves, but it should be done more sparingly - one reserve per game, not two days full of starters and one day full of dregs.

samram
06-09-2005, 09:47 AM
Ok, assuming Ozzie's giving away every third game (which I don't necessarily agree he's doing), the difference between this year and last is they are winning the other two, whereas last year, they didn't always win the ones they weren't "giving" away.

Look, they're 41-19. They've lost, what, two series all season? I think the strategy is working fine.

PatK
06-09-2005, 09:47 AM
I'm all for getting guys rest and playing reserves, but it should be done more sparingly - one reserve per game, not two days full of starters and one day full of dregs.

Exactly. I don't mind seeing the reserves playing as long as they all aren't in during the same game.

skottyj242
06-09-2005, 09:49 AM
Ok, assuming Ozzie's giving away every third game (which I don't necessarily agree he's doing), the difference between this year and last is they are winning the other two, whereas last year, they didn't always win the ones they weren't "giving" away.

Look, they're 41-19. They've lost, what, two series all season? I think the strategy is working fine.

Aren't they 40-19?

Ol' No. 2
06-09-2005, 09:51 AM
I'm all for getting guys rest and playing reserves, but it should be done more sparingly - one reserve per game, not two days full of starters and one day full of dregs.So the idea is to reduce the chances of winning for ALL the games instead of just 1/3 of them?

Besides, the whole premise is BS. They've scored as many runs with the reserves as they have with the regulars.

FanofBill
06-09-2005, 09:51 AM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-050608soxgamer,1,3739319.story?page=1&coll=cs-home-headlines




Ozzie drives me f-in' crazy some times. Giving away every third game is almost as bad as giving away every fifth (last year, minus 5th starter).

If the Twinks don't have as many "series wins", but have more wins in the end because they cared about sweeping, we'll be just as dead in October.

"Series wins." What a stupid concept. This is a 162 game series. "Series wins" only count in the playoffs.

:angry:Venting complete.:angry:

Just to be fair to Guillen, here is another quote from the Daily Herald from Guillen in context.

“El Duque was struggling in the beginning, but as the game went on he got better,’’ Guillen said. “He did a real good job after the first few innings and he kept us in the game. We’re not real good at sweeping people; we don’t have that killer instinct. I just want to win series, but a sweep is nice.’’

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/whitesox.asp?id=59447

mweflen
06-09-2005, 09:53 AM
Ok, assuming Ozzie's giving away every third game (which I don't necessarily agree he's doing), the difference between this year and last is they are winning the other two, whereas last year, they didn't always win the ones they weren't "giving" away.

Look, they're 41-19. They've lost, what, two series all season? I think the strategy is working fine.

We're 40-19.

We've lost 3 "series."

Yes, and as good as our start is, there is MIN, 4 games back, never faltering. We need every game. We can't afford to have a lineup with 3-5 reserves playing.

mweflen
06-09-2005, 09:54 AM
So the idea is to reduce the chances of winning for ALL the games instead of just 1/3 of them?

Besides, the whole premise is BS. They've scored as many runs with the reserves as they have with the regulars.

The reserves can get just as much playing time and the starters can get just as much rest 1 playing per day instead of 3 playing one day.

Take your "BS premise" and shove it.

alohafri
06-09-2005, 09:54 AM
I think Ozzie should be playing to win EVERY game--not just 2 of 3. If some of the guys need rest, then fine. Today is a day of rest for all of them.
I thought it was unfair to rest our starters last Sunday with Burlymon pitching. He could have won that game had the regulars played the whole game.

---Mrs. Aloha

mweflen
06-09-2005, 09:57 AM
Just to be fair to Guillen, here is another quote from the Daily Herald from Guillen in context.

“El Duque was struggling in the beginning, but as the game went on he got better,’’ Guillen said. “He did a real good job after the first few innings and he kept us in the game. We’re not real good at sweeping people; we don’t have that killer instinct. I just want to win series, but a sweep is nice.’’

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/whitesox.asp?id=59447

Good catch. The Cub-une sure is biased, isn't it? The point stands, though - Ozzie's "getaway day" lineups are becoming a real pain to watch. The only reason they've been marginally successful is that the pitching is still holding up.

skottyj242
06-09-2005, 10:00 AM
I would rather have our team full strength two out of three days and have three reserves in the lineup at the same time on the third day than be a little weaker with one reserve in the lineup every day.

anewman35
06-09-2005, 10:00 AM
We're 40-19.

We've lost 3 "series."

Yes, and as good as our start is, there is MIN, 4 games back, never faltering. We need every game. We can't afford to have a lineup with 3-5 reserves playing.

I don't have any research to back me up or anything, but I'm quite sure Minnesota plays reserve players often, too. All teams do. Here's what I don't get, though - I think it's been proven that we can score just as many (if not more) runs with the reserves in the lineup (see: yesterday). So why start this poll today?

mweflen
06-09-2005, 10:08 AM
I don't have any research to back me up or anything, but I'm quite sure Minnesota plays reserve players often, too. All teams do. Here's what I don't get, though - I think it's been proven that we can score just as many (if not more) runs with the reserves in the lineup (see: yesterday). So why start this poll today?

Yesterday is not a good example of average "reserve production." It was essentially a spring training game (environmental factors) against a AAA team (competition quality).

The best recent example is game 3 against LAAAA.

The reason to start the poll is that this getaway-day-lineup thing has been an increasing phenomenon, and this quote from Ozzie really cinched it. Many have been wondering about his lineup choices (not to mention his bullpen choices in game 3's of "series"), and these sorts of quotes lend a lot of credence to the theory that Guillen is satisfied with 2 of 3, as opposed to gunning for all 3.

Sxy Mofo
06-09-2005, 10:12 AM
Let's also not forget how the sox have lost the division the last number of years. By losing late in the year. Keep the players strong, healthy and rested for the final push. The baseball season is a marathon, not a sprint. But, much like a marathon, you've got to have a strong push at the end, by saving some energy.

mweflen
06-09-2005, 10:12 AM
Defense is what really sufers in these substitutions. Sure, the reserves can hit (well, not Timo...) - but Timo had huge E's at first in the 6/1 LAA game, and Ozun played a crap 3rd yesterday.

mweflen
06-09-2005, 10:13 AM
Let's also not forget how the sox have lost the division the last number of years. By losing late in the year. Keep the players strong, healthy and rested for the final push. The baseball season is a marathon, not a sprint. But, much like a marathon, you've got to have a strong push at the end, by saving some energy.

Again: play a reserve a day, not two lineups of all starters, and one lineup of all reserves. Same amount of rest, better chance to win each game.

Mickster
06-09-2005, 10:14 AM
Defense is what really sufers in these substitutions. Sure, the reserves can hit (well, not Timo...) - but Timo had huge E's at first in the 6/1 LAA game, and Ozun played a crap 3rd yesterday.

I could just as easily pont to a few games where Dye made some blunders in RF and everyone was screaming for his head. Stuff happens. Relax. :smile:

downstairs
06-09-2005, 10:15 AM
I have to believe Ozzie is just simplifying a much more complex strategy.

I highly doubt he "wants" to lose any game. And if we're in the 3rd game of a series in which we've won the first two, and its close and late... Ozzie is still going to bring everyone out that he can.

Secondly, our reserves/5th starters/rarely-used relievers HAVE to come through often enough if we want to be a contender and a good playoff team. (And, I think they have thus far).

Have faith in our reserves, people! If you don't, then you'd have to believe we're going to slowly fall anyway.

Ol' No. 2
06-09-2005, 10:17 AM
Yesterday is not a good example of average "reserve production." It was essentially a spring training game (environmental factors) against a AAA team (competition quality).

The best recent example is game 3 against LAAAA.

The reason to start the poll is that this getaway-day-lineup thing has been an increasing phenomenon, and this quote from Ozzie really cinched it. Many have been wondering about his lineup choices (not to mention his bullpen choices in game 3's of "series"), and these sorts of quotes lend a lot of credence to the theory that Guillen is satisfied with 2 of 3, as opposed to gunning for all 3.They scored 7 runs that game. Before that, the "getaway lineup" was used May 11 against TB (won 5-2). Obviously, those reserves just can't produce.

anewman35
06-09-2005, 10:18 AM
Yesterday is not a good example of average "reserve production." It was essentially a spring training game (environmental factors) against a AAA team (competition quality).

The best recent example is game 3 against LAAAA.

The reason to start the poll is that this getaway-day-lineup thing has been an increasing phenomenon, and this quote from Ozzie really cinched it. Many have been wondering about his lineup choices (not to mention his bullpen choices in game 3's of "series"), and these sorts of quotes lend a lot of credence to the theory that Guillen is satisfied with 2 of 3, as opposed to gunning for all 3.

Yes, but in game 3 against LAAAA, we scored 7 runs. That loss was the fault of pitching, not of the offense. I'm not going to deny that he made some bad bullpen choices, but that has nothing to do with the lineup.

Average runs scored in the last game of a series (and, yes, I know that some of these aren't "getaway day lineups" or whatever, but I'm not going to do the work to figure it out) - 4.65. Overall average runs scored: 4.71. So I really don't buy the arguement that we're significantly worse off in the last game of a series.

mweflen
06-09-2005, 10:19 AM
Again: play a reserve a day, not two lineups of all starters, and one lineup of all reserves. Same amount of rest, better chance to win each game.

The defense of the reserves is generally worse than the offense. Except for Timo.

anewman35
06-09-2005, 10:20 AM
Again: play a reserve a day, not two lineups of all starters, and one lineup of all reserves. Same amount of rest, better chance to win each game.

When have we ever used a lineup of "all reserves"? Yesterday's lineup had 2 (3 if you count Carl). And both reserves are hitting over .300. What's the problem here?

mweflen
06-09-2005, 10:21 AM
When have we ever used a lineup of "all reserves"? Yesterday's lineup had 2 (3 if you count Carl). And both reserves are hitting over .300. What's the problem here?

Sorry for shortening my sentences for brevity. I mean "All the reserves who are available to play in a given game," not that we have a bench with 9 reserve players (which we obviously don't.)

Look, I love this team, we've had a great start, and 2 or 3 of our reserves really impress me. (The other two I could deal with never seeing again in my life)

But some of these lineups are infuriating - specifically: any lineup with Timo, and any lineup with Ozuna at first.

If we lose the division by one game to the Twinkies, these "reserve smorgasbord" days are going to look pretty dumb in hindsight.

anewman35
06-09-2005, 10:23 AM
Sorry for shortening my sentences for brevity. I mean "All the reserves who are available to play in a given game," not that we have a bench with 9 reserve players (which we obviously don't.)

Well, yesterday still isn't an example of that. Neither Willie Harris or Timo Perez started.

Sxy Mofo
06-09-2005, 10:24 AM
Again: play a reserve a day, not two lineups of all starters, and one lineup of all reserves. Same amount of rest, better chance to win each game.


I agree. However, one thing I noticed last night looking at who was playing... Ozzie loves the lefty-right matchup. If you notice, AJP and Scotty were out, while Pab's and widge were in. Every batter we sent to the plate against the LHP was a righty.

Ol' No. 2
06-09-2005, 10:26 AM
I agree. However, one thing I noticed last night looking at who was playing... Ozzie loves the lefty-right matchup. If you notice, AJP and Scotty were out, while Pab's and widge were in. Every batter we sent to the plate against the LHP was a righty.Which was also the case in the Jun 1 game against LAAAA. He used his lefties against Byrd, who is significantly weaker against LH hitters. The whole idea that Ozzie is running up the white flag every third game is silly.

Baby Fisk
06-09-2005, 10:26 AM
What luxuries we can fret over this year! :cool:

spawn
06-09-2005, 10:28 AM
My God...I've never seen so much hand wringing over a team that is 40-19. So what if Ozzie likes to play his reserves. And where is he throwing away the last game of a series? The reserves are on a Major League roster. They're supposed to be ready to play. As far as Ozuna at 3rd yesterday...he had a bad game. So what? Dye hasn't had a bad day in the field? Iguchi hasn't? Jeez, the Sox win 15-5 and sweep the Rockies and people still find something to complain about.:rolleyes:

Jurr
06-09-2005, 10:29 AM
yeah...it sucks. I mean, those reserves only scored 15 runs last night. Man, if the starters played last night, we may have scored 20!

Palehose13
06-09-2005, 10:29 AM
I have no problem with Widger playing for AJ once or twice a week. I am very confident in the Sox catching duo.

In my mind Ozuna was the only real "reserve" that stated last night.

mweflen...why the moaning and groaning? The Sox are 40-19! If they win every series, that puts them t 108-54 for the year...that works for me.

mweflen
06-09-2005, 10:30 AM
I agree. However, one thing I noticed last night looking at who was playing... Ozzie loves the lefty-right matchup. If you notice, AJP and Scotty were out, while Pab's and widge were in. Every batter we sent to the plate against the LHP was a righty.

Yeah - and one place he REALLY loves the lefty-righty matchup is with bullpen decisions - even though Lefties are hitting .293 against Marte and Righties are hitting .316 against Takatsu.

Speaking of splits, AJ is hitting .294 against lefties vs. .256 against righties. Pods? .347 vs. L and .268 v. R.

Maybe this lefty-righty matchup business should STOP.

mweflen
06-09-2005, 10:32 AM
What luxuries we can fret over this year! :cool:

True, true :smile: But I want to be 59-0, consarn it!

And the Twinks are only 4 back. If we had a 10 game lead, all this "marathon not sprint" talk would hold a lot more water.

Baby Fisk
06-09-2005, 10:36 AM
My God...I've never seen so much hand wringing over a team that is 40-19. So what if Ozzie likes to play his reserves. And where is he throwing away the last game of a series? The reserves are on a Major League roster. They're supposed to be ready to play. As far as Ozuna at 3rd yesterday...he had a bad game. So what? Dye hasn't had a bad day in the field? Iguchi hasn't? Jeez, the Sox win 15-5 and sweep the Rockies and people still find something to complain about.:rolleyes:
LOL! Thoughts of imminent catastrophe are so ingrained in us, it's always going to be a part of who we are. We just can't enjoy this...because disaster could be lurking around the corner! Deep down, there's a little Homefish in all of us. :redface:

Palehose13
06-09-2005, 10:39 AM
True, true :smile: But I want to be 59-0, consarn it!

And the Twinks are only 4 back. If we had a 10 game lead, all this "marathon not sprint" talk would hold a lot more water.

To be honest with you, I WANT the twins to be on their tail all year. I don't want the team to get complacent with a big lead. I think that was one of the problems in the 2000 playoffs.

anewman35
06-09-2005, 10:40 AM
And the Twinks are only 4 back. If we had a 10 game lead, all this "marathon not sprint" talk would hold a lot more water.

True, but they're 3 games up in the Wild Card, which basically means that we're 7 games up on being in the playoffs. I want the division, obviously, but past history has shown that it doesn't much matter.

Jurr
06-09-2005, 10:41 AM
To be honest with you, I WANT the twins to be on their tail all year. I don't want the team to get complacent with a big lead. I think that was one of the problems in the 2000 playoffs.
Abso-friggin-lutely. That's what HAS to happen for this team to do well later on.

mweflen
06-09-2005, 10:42 AM
LOL! Thoughts of imminent catastrophe are so ingrained in us, it's always going to be a part of who we are. We just can't enjoy this...because disaster could be lurking around the corner! Deep down, there's a little Homefish in all of us. :redface:

Sox fans, by and large, are extremely pessimistic. At least in my observation.

I prefer this to Cubs fans' simpering, doe-eyed optimism.

Baseball is a game defined by failure. Only 4 of 14 teams in our league (4 of 16 in the NL) will make the playoffs, as opposed to more than half of the NBA and/or NHL. The best players still fail to hit the ball 2/3 of the time, as opposed to the NBA, where you'd better succeed half the time to be a good player.

If you're not resigned to seeing your team fail as a baseball fan, you're going to have a handful of heart attacks before you're 50. It's very buddhist, in a way. You have to let go.

Our team makes the playoffs in 1 out of 10 seasons. It's a conditioned response to await the inevitable disaster. Hence, I want to see us win as many GAMES as possible, not as many SERIES as possible.

Sxy Mofo
06-09-2005, 10:43 AM
Yeah - and one place he REALLY loves the lefty-righty matchup is with bullpen decisions - even though Lefties are hitting .293 against Marte and Righties are hitting .316 against Takatsu.

Speaking of splits, AJ is hitting .294 against lefties vs. .256 against righties. Pods? .347 vs. L and .268 v. R.

Maybe this lefty-righty matchup business should STOP.


Totally agree. But the oz loves it. I'd much rather use a hot hitter than play the lefty/righty matchup. The same as i'd rather use a hot pitcher over the lefty/righty matchup. I'd take politte against any left hander right now than marte against a lefty.

Jurr
06-09-2005, 10:45 AM
Sox fans, by and large, are extremely pessimistic. At least in my observation.

I prefer this to Cubs fans' simpering, doe-eyed optimism.

Baseball is a game defined by failure. Only 4 of 14 teams in our league (4 of 16 in the NL) will make the playoffs, as opposed to more than half of the NBA and/or NHL. The best players still fail to hit the ball 2/3 of the time, as opposed to the NBA, where you'd better succeed half the time to be a good player.

If you're not resigned to seeing your team fail as a baseball fan, you're going to have a handful of heart attacks before you're 50. It's very buddhist, in a way. You have to let go.

Our team makes the playoffs in 1 out of 10 seasons. It's a conditioned response to await the inevitable disaster.
this sentiment could not be phrased any better.

Jjav829
06-09-2005, 10:47 AM
The one thing I don't like is how Ozzie seems to think that Pods days off have to coincide with Ozuna in the lineup. Crede and Pods both sat Sunday. They then played two games and both sat on Wednesday. Now I understand - and agree - with Ozzie wanting to get Everett in the lineup and Pods in the most likely to sit since he's a lefty and both Dye and Rowand are on fire. But I don't agree with Ozzie making an unnecessary move to get Ozuna in the game. IMO, he just as easily could have put Rowand or Iguchi in the leadoff spot for one game. I can understand if he doesn't want to move Gooch out of the #2 spot since he's comfortable there. But Rowand has played in 5 different spots already and spent a significant amount of time in the leadoff spot last year. Would it really be that hard to leave Crede in and move Rowand to the leadoff spot for one game? :dunno:

Jurr
06-09-2005, 10:49 AM
The one thing I don't like is how Ozzie seems to think that Pods days off have to coincide with Ozuna in the lineup. Crede and Pods both sat Sunday. They then played two games and both sat on Wednesday. Now I understand - and agree - with Ozzie wanting to get Everett in the lineup and Pods in the most likely to sit since he's a lefty and both Dye and Rowand are on fire. But I don't agree with Ozzie making an unnecessary move to get Ozuna in the game. IMO, he just as easily could have put Rowand or Iguchi in the leadoff spot for one game. I can understand if he doesn't want to move Gooch out of the #2 spot since he's comfortable there. But Rowand has played in 5 different spots already and spent a significant amount of time in the leadoff spot last year. Would it really be that hard to leave Crede in and move Rowand to the leadoff spot for one game? :dunno:
I also don't think that anyone should be manning the hot corner except for Crede and Uribe. Ozuna was horrible there last night, as he was responsible for 2 or 3 runs singlehandedly. Move the guy to short when Crede can't play, and let Uribe man third. Juan was stellar there last year.

daveeym
06-09-2005, 10:55 AM
Yesterday is not a good example of average "reserve production." It was essentially a spring training game (environmental factors) against a AAA team (competition quality).

The best recent example is game 3 against LAAAA.

The reason to start the poll is that this getaway-day-lineup thing has been an increasing phenomenon, and this quote from Ozzie really cinched it. Many have been wondering about his lineup choices (not to mention his bullpen choices in game 3's of "series"), and these sorts of quotes lend a lot of credence to the theory that Guillen is satisfied with 2 of 3, as opposed to gunning for all 3. :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: Hey Joe, go back to baseball prospectus and keep using your selective stats to prove your point. "um, yesterday doesn't count because it conflicts with my theory!"

MisterB
06-09-2005, 10:56 AM
Sox fans, by and large, are extremely pessimistic. At least in my observation.

I prefer this to Cubs fans' simpering, doe-eyed optimism.

Frankly both extremes get on my nerves after a while.

If you're not resigned to seeing your team fail as a baseball fan, you're going to have a handful of heart attacks before you're 50. It's very buddhist, in a way. You have to let go.

The best teams in the history of baseball lose 1/3 of their games, and so far the Sox are doing just that. I'd recommend you take your own advice: LET GO.

mweflen
06-09-2005, 10:59 AM
I also don't think that anyone should be manning the hot corner except for Crede and Uribe. Ozuna was horrible there last night, as he was responsible for 2 or 3 runs singlehandedly. Move the guy to short when Crede can't play, and let Uribe man third. Juan was stellar there last year.

Defense suffers the most with all the incessant subbing. We have guys who can hit .250 plus in a reserve role. That is beyond debate. (and given our team BA, not so bad)

But Ozuna stunk at 3B and Timo stunk at 1B, and both were resposible for runs.

Pitching is what has won all these games, people. Putting a subpar defense behind your pitchers just wears them out (see: 55 pitches in 2 innings yestersay for Duque).

Dice
06-09-2005, 11:00 AM
So much ridicule for a 40-19 team. Amazing how us Sox fans aren't satisfied with the best record in baseball. It goes to show how we want more. I personally don't want JUST the best record but the World Series! We had the best record in baseball in 2000 and got swepted in the first round. I don't want that to happen again.


I did some calculations and found if we took 2 out of 3 games and 3 out 4 games from teams for the rest of the year we would win 110 games. I'd take it.

mweflen
06-09-2005, 11:01 AM
The best teams in the history of baseball lose 1/3 of their games, and so far the Sox are doing just that. I'd recommend you take your own advice: LET GO.

Knowing that you ought to let go and actually letting go are two very different things. Anyone who posts on this site, by definition, has not "let go."

Desire leads to suffering.

Sox fans are some of the most desirous around.

Therefore, we suffer. :smile:

Ol' No. 2
06-09-2005, 11:06 AM
The one thing I don't like is how Ozzie seems to think that Pods days off have to coincide with Ozuna in the lineup. Crede and Pods both sat Sunday. They then played two games and both sat on Wednesday. Now I understand - and agree - with Ozzie wanting to get Everett in the lineup and Pods in the most likely to sit since he's a lefty and both Dye and Rowand are on fire. But I don't agree with Ozzie making an unnecessary move to get Ozuna in the game. IMO, he just as easily could have put Rowand or Iguchi in the leadoff spot for one game. I can understand if he doesn't want to move Gooch out of the #2 spot since he's comfortable there. But Rowand has played in 5 different spots already and spent a significant amount of time in the leadoff spot last year. Would it really be that hard to leave Crede in and move Rowand to the leadoff spot for one game? :dunno:Maybe, but Ozzie said he wanted Ozuna in the lineup to replace Podsednik's speed. You could quibble with it, but it's a rational reasoning.

Jjav829
06-09-2005, 11:12 AM
Maybe, but Ozzie said he wanted Ozuna in the lineup to replace Podsednik's speed. You could quibble with it, but it's a rational reasoning.

But Ozuna doesn't use his speed like Pods. The question is whether Ozuna's speed is more valuable for one game than Crede's defense. In my opinion, it's not.

mweflen
06-09-2005, 11:18 AM
But Ozuna doesn't use his speed like Pods. The question is whether Ozuna's speed is more valuable for one game than Crede's defense. In my opinion, it's not.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner.

Speaking of success/failure: failure at the plate is not as bad as failure on defense.

If you're 0 for 4 at the plate, you didn't contribute anything, but unless you're Paul Konerko, you probably also didn't ground into 4 double plays.

If you make 2 errors on Defense, you've set your team back, hurt your starter, and made everybody press harder on Offense.

doublem23
06-09-2005, 11:18 AM
Shut up.

wildcat
06-09-2005, 11:21 AM
So much ridicule for a 40-19 team. Amazing how us Sox fans aren't satisfied with the best record in baseball. It goes to show how we want more. I personally don't want JUST the best record but the World Series! We had the best record in baseball in 2000 and got swepted in the first round. I don't want that to happen again.

I did some calculations and found if we took 2 out of 3 games and 3 out 4 games from teams for the rest of the year we would win 110 games. I'd take it.

I don't think any of use are saying that we want to win every game. (Well, maybe we want to, but...) It's a question of attitude. The problem comes if the players start thinking of every last game of a series as an off day and give less. Maybe it hasn't happened yet, but if this pattern continues, it could become part of the culture of the club. Could the Sox take 2 out of every 3 and win a ton of games? Sure, but there's no guarantee that they will win the first two every time against teams like LAAA or Minnesota. Get wins where you can while using the reserves smartly. Mind you, I'm not questioning Ozzie's actually management of the team (he's doing much better than I would), but there does seem to be an attitude expressed by having what amounts to a "B team" and saying that winning a series is more important than sweeping.

mweflen
06-09-2005, 11:30 AM
Shut up.

Who is this directed towards? If it's me, well, I know you are, but what am I? I didn't know it was taboo to express an opinion, free of personal insults (like "shut up") and backed up by argument.

:dtroll: come in all shapes and sizes, I guess.

doublem23
06-09-2005, 11:38 AM
We have the best record in baseball (by winning, on average 2 of every 3 games).

Even if crazy Ozzie Guillen and the White Sox "only" win 2 of their next three games for the rest of the season... We still win 109 games.

So, yes, please. Shut up.

This is a ridiculous thread.

mweflen
06-09-2005, 11:48 AM
We have the best record in baseball (by winning, on average 2 of every 3 games).

Even if crazy Ozzie Guillen and the White Sox "only" win 2 of their next three games for the rest of the season... We still win 109 games.

So, yes, please. Shut up.

This is a ridiculous thread.


Whatever.

Is there a sticky list of officially sanctioned opinions somewhere that I can bone up on? Because I wouldn't want to offend a moderator (whose argumentative arsenels are replete with such zingers as "shut up") with my "incorrect" opinions.

mweflen
06-09-2005, 11:58 AM
but there does seem to be an attitude expressed by having what amounts to a "B team" and saying that winning a series is more important than sweeping.

Yes, it's this attitude that I so vehemently disagree with. You should try to win every game, while getting enough rest for your starters and enough playing time for your reserves. ESPECIALLY when your competition lingers 3 and 4 games back all the time.

Ozzie, OTOH, seems to approach it with the attitude "we've altready won 2 of 3, so if we go in at 80%, no big deal."



With that, I'm done with this thread. DoubleM's heavy-handed moderating has turned me off. Screw it.

spiffie
06-09-2005, 11:58 AM
I think the reason people get so worked up is that we know that is it extremely unlikely that we will take 2 out of 3 every series the rest of the year. If we do, great, none of this will matter and by Sept. 1 we'll basically be a lock for the playoffs. But when we hit the inevitable bad patch where we lose 7 of 10 or 9 of 12 or something like that, and we lose ground, then all of a sudden those series where we *might* have been able to get those extra games for padding by getting a sweep become huge in retrospect. At some point we will lose a few series in a row most likely. And if we don't.., well :bandance: :gulp: because we'll be rolling into the playoffs without a doubt!

Ol' No. 2
06-09-2005, 12:04 PM
But Ozuna doesn't use his speed like Pods. The question is whether Ozuna's speed is more valuable for one game than Crede's defense. In my opinion, it's not.I don't think that was the point. By replacing Pods with Everett you lose a significant amount of overall speed. You get some of it back by replacing Crede with Ozuna. It's about more than base stealing. Unless you plan on just sitting Ozuna on the end of the bench for the rest of the season, it's as good a time to use him as any.

samram
06-09-2005, 12:06 PM
We're 40-19.

We've lost 3 "series."

Yes, and as good as our start is, there is MIN, 4 games back, never faltering. We need every game. We can't afford to have a lineup with 3-5 reserves playing.

Ok, sorry, 40-19, with 3 series losses, one of which was basically taken by the umpires.

The way I like to look at it is that Minnesota is "never faltering" and is still 4 games back. They're going to hit hard times at some point too. And believe it or not, there are games in which the Twins have several reserves playing too.

Jurr
06-09-2005, 12:17 PM
Ok, sorry, 40-19, with 3 series losses, one of which was basically taken by the umpires.

The way I like to look at it is that Minnesota is "never faltering" and is still 4 games back. They're going to hit hard times at some point too. And believe it or not, there are games in which the Twins have several reserves playing too.
Hell, yeah! I watch Minnesota play all the time, and that's all they have to play! It's all reserves! I see Ryan, Abernathy, Castro, Redmond, and Lecroy all the time!! Injuries have torn that roster up, and they still win because of pitching!

Jjav829
06-09-2005, 12:20 PM
I don't think that was the point. By replacing Pods with Everett you lose a significant amount of overall speed. You get some of it back by replacing Crede with Ozuna. It's about more than base stealing. Unless you plan on just sitting Ozuna on the end of the bench for the rest of the season, it's as good a time to use him as any.

I'm not saying don't use Ozuna. My point is that Pods and Crede sitting should not be linked together. Pods overall speed isn't what makes him a good player. It's his use of speed in stealing bases that makes him a great player. You can find tons of guys with great speed but that can't do much else. One of the fastest men in baseball, Joey Gathright, isn't in the majors because he doesn't do much else. Great speed itself does not help you win baseball games. It's the use of speed to play defense, steal bases, etc. that helps you win games. Pods makes use of that speed in stealing bases and in getting to balls in the OF that others wouldn't get to. The same can't be said for Ozuna. He's not a great basestealer and his speed doesn't come into play as much while playing 3B. There is no need to link Pods sitting with Crede sitting, especially when Crede just sat on Sunday.

PicktoCLick72
06-09-2005, 12:31 PM
Maybe I was watching some other game but have we been shut out every third game these past couple series. It is rediculous to say the Sox are not trying to win these games. A couple fet in the LAA and Injuns series and we would have a 9 game winning streak. Stop making it look like we are getting clobbered in the games with the reserves. I am sorry 21 games over is not good enough for all of you. Maybe all you complainers should write a letter to the team telling them to try harder.

Ol' No. 2
06-09-2005, 12:59 PM
I'm not saying don't use Ozuna. My point is that Pods and Crede sitting should not be linked together. Pods overall speed isn't what makes him a good player. It's his use of speed in stealing bases that makes him a great player. You can find tons of guys with great speed but that can't do much else. One of the fastest men in baseball, Joey Gathright, isn't in the majors because he doesn't do much else. Great speed itself does not help you win baseball games. It's the use of speed to play defense, steal bases, etc. that helps you win games. Pods makes use of that speed in stealing bases and in getting to balls in the OF that others wouldn't get to. The same can't be said for Ozuna. He's not a great basestealer and his speed doesn't come into play as much while playing 3B. There is no need to link Pods sitting with Crede sitting, especially when Crede just sat on Sunday.Speed also comes into play in other ways: going first to third on a hit or scoring from first on a double. With Pods out they lose a significant amount of speed at the top of the order. Just moving Rowand up to #1 doesn't really address that - you're just rearranging the players you have. By adding Ozuna to the top of the order they maintain much of the ability to put pressure on the defense. Besides, Ozuna has 4 SB in 18 times on base, so he can steal a base now and then. True, you give up some defense, but that's going to happen any time you put Ozuna in.

maurice
06-09-2005, 01:01 PM
It very difficult to argue that Ozzie has used Ozuna too often.

On the contrary, he'd probably play even better if he got some of Timo's ABs.

Jjav829
06-09-2005, 01:15 PM
Speed also comes into play in other ways: going first to third on a hit or scoring from first on a double. With Pods out they lose a significant amount of speed at the top of the order. Just moving Rowand up to #1 doesn't really address that - you're just rearranging the players you have. By adding Ozuna to the top of the order they maintain much of the ability to put pressure on the defense. Besides, Ozuna has 4 SB in 18 times on base, so he can steal a base now and then. True, you give up some defense, but that's going to happen any time you put Ozuna in.

That still comes back to my point that Ozuna's speed doesn't outweigh Crede's defense. I have no problem using Ozuna to spell others. I just think Ozzie should stay away from linking Ozuna's playing time to Pods sitting.

balke
06-09-2005, 01:16 PM
I'm not even reading past the first page. I think YOU'RE crazy for making this thread. Ozzie has made three mistakes with the lineup all season. Two involved letting Timo play Center or first. The other was the Dye at short situation, which could've happened to the best of em.

2 out of 3 is great, sweeps are nice too. I think besides those 3 games, Ozzie has done what it takes every game to help the Sox win. That includes making sure Pods doesn't blow a hammy and such.

mweflen
06-09-2005, 01:19 PM
.

Again: play a reserve a day, not two lineups of all starters, and one lineup of all reserves. Same amount of rest, better chance to win each game.




Yes, it's this attitude that I so vehemently disagree with. You should try to win every game, while getting enough rest for your starters and enough playing time for your reserves. ESPECIALLY when your competition lingers 3 and 4 games back all the time.

Ozzie, OTOH, seems to approach it with the attitude "we've altready won 2 of 3, so if we go in at 80%, no big deal."

With that, I'm done with this thread. DoubleM's heavy-handed moderating has turned me off. Screw it.

Ol' No. 2
06-09-2005, 01:27 PM
That still comes back to my point that Ozuna's speed doesn't outweigh Crede's defense. I have no problem using Ozuna to spell others. I just think Ozzie should stay away from linking Ozuna's playing time to Pods sitting.I don't see it as a question of speed vs. defense. You're always going to sacrifice some defense whenever you put Ozuna in whether Pods is playing or not. But assuming that 1. you're going to play Ozuna once in a while and, 2. you're going to rest Podsednik once in a while, it makes sense to me to use Ozuna when Pods is out to make up for some of the lost speed at the top of the order.

wildcat
06-09-2005, 01:28 PM
I'm not even reading past the first page. I think YOU'RE crazy for making this thread. Ozzie has made three mistakes with the lineup all season. Two involved letting Timo play Center or first. The other was the Dye at short situation, which could've happened to the best of em.

2 out of 3 is great, sweeps are nice too. I think besides those 3 games, Ozzie has done what it takes every game to help the Sox win. That includes making sure Pods doesn't blow a hammy and such.

But isn't arguing over whether roster moves are mistakes, etc, the whole point of the board? I mean no offense to anyone here, but it's not like it's going to affect anything Ozzie does!

We're obsessed fans (as other threads have demonstrated), and it's in the nature of obsession to look at the little details. Clearly, we won't know until October whether any of these things are mistakes or brilliant managing. Until then, though, it's fun to look at the playing and managing and argue about whether it's the right thing and point out what we might have done differently.

I think there are arguments to be made either way on this issue, and as long as we're backing these things up with stats, quotes, etc, then what's the problem and how is it crazy (or at least, how is it any crazier than what we always do)? :smile:

CYGarland20
06-09-2005, 02:34 PM
Defense is what really sufers in these substitutions. Sure, the reserves can hit (well, not Timo...) - but Timo had huge E's at first in the 6/1 LAA game, and Ozun played a crap 3rd yesterday. I Agree 100%. Ozuna should not play 3rd base, he is best suited for short or 2nd. If Ozzie wants to give Crede a day off, then he should move Uribe to third, where he played well last year, and put Ozuna at short.......Also I think we should give the bench some playing time here and there, but not every 3rd game of the series. I can see playing them on a day game after a night game, or when they have better stats against a certain pitcher. But why play them in the 3rd game of a series w/ a day off next???? This makes no sense to me. I love the fact we have the best record in baseball, but Minnesota has the 3rd best, and are right on our A$$es!! It's too early to concede games, maybe when were 10 games up in September we can do that. :?:

Chisox003
06-09-2005, 02:43 PM
I'm all for getting guys rest and playing reserves, but it should be done more sparingly - one reserve per game, not two days full of starters and one day full of dregs.

Yes, Yes YESSSSSSS! I hate seeing 2 of the following guys playing at the same time: Willie, Pablo, Widger, and Timo....Every third game, though, we see at least 2 if not more of those guys

WE NEED THAT KILLER INSTINCT OZZ!

MisterB
06-09-2005, 02:49 PM
Yes, Yes YESSSSSSS! I hate seeing 2 of the following guys playing at the same time: Willie, Pablo, Widger, and Timo....Every third game, though, we see at least 2 if not more of those guys

WE NEED THAT KILLER INSTINCT OZZ!

1. The catching position is a special case when it comes to getting days off, and should be left out of this conversation.

2. Which is more 'tinkering' - playing the starting 9 two days in a row then a different lineup on the third day or playing a different lineup 3 days in a row?

PatK
06-09-2005, 03:23 PM
I can't believe that people are whining about subs playing in a game that was won 15-5.

ma-gaga
06-09-2005, 04:35 PM
It depends on the setup of the roster. If you are trying to "squeeze" every single damn win out of the season you can set your roster. But it's too soon to be worried about this. You'll burn guys out.

If you are trying to survive the "marathon" season, you have to give guys breaks a couple of days a week.

:cool:

Hoffdaddydmb
06-09-2005, 05:37 PM
I want to hang myself everytime I see Willie in the lineup. He doesn't know how to utilize his speed. On the off chance he gets a hit and makes it on base he's too afraid to steal and he's not very smart about it. He's definately not great at bunting either IMO.

TomBradley72
06-09-2005, 07:12 PM
Ozzie is managing for the long run...recognizing it's a marathon...not a sprint.

What if Crede or Uribe get injured? Ozuna needs to be sharp....until they could make a trade for a replacement. He had three hits last night...and besides Crede deserved to sit after popping up yet ANOTHER bunt on Tuesday....he leads the league in dramatically tossing the bat after popping out and killing rallies...you can see it's ticking Ozzie off.

I was at the Timo playing 1st base game....rough to watch...but with Gload/Thomas unable to play 1st...the move was understandable...especially looking at what the two days off has done for Konerko (he's hitting .348 since the break).

Everett replaces Pods...now Pods has a two day rest hitting into one of the largest ballparks in the majors...where his speed will be much more important than it was at Coors Field.

It takes ba**s to do it the way he is...that's why he's a great manager.

batmanZoSo
06-09-2005, 08:53 PM
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-050608soxgamer,1,3739319.story?page=1&coll=cs-home-headlines




Ozzie drives me f-in' crazy some times. Giving away every third game is almost as bad as giving away every fifth (last year, minus 5th starter).

If the Twinks don't have as many "series wins", but have more wins in the end because they cared about sweeping, we'll be just as dead in October.

"Series wins." What a stupid concept. This is a 162 game series. "Series wins" only count in the playoffs.

:angry:Venting complete.:angry:

Dude, let it go. The man is not the most articulate in the first place and on top of that he speaks poor English. You can't take everything that comes out of his mouth with a lot of regard. Can you possibly think he doesn't want to win every game he manages? There is nothing wrong with what he said. He doesn't throw games away and we've had several sweeps this year. If the Twins care about sweeping so much, then how come they're 4 games behind us? And we are 40-19. Sure, there are things I would've liked him to do differently, but really how could you expect anything more than what we've gotten so far?

ShoelessJoeS
06-09-2005, 09:57 PM
of course we wanna win every series, DUH! :cool:

FarWestChicago
06-09-2005, 09:59 PM
WARNING: Reading this thread can cause irreparable brain damage!