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Lip Man 1
06-08-2005, 01:01 AM
I'm not a Cub fan (obviously) but if I were I'd be calling for Dusty's head. After today's ludicrous comments on WSCR radio, this guy is clearly losing his mind both on and off the field.

Here's a list (in no particular order) of Dusty's faux paus' (feel free to add any that I missed...)

1. Says Cubs are at a disadvantage because they play so many day games, allowing opponents to 'scout' them on TV before they play their night game.

2. Says dark skinned players are better equipped to handle the heat then white skinned players.

3. Immediately after the 'Bartman incident' blamed him for the loss. (He'd back off after cooling off later...)

4. Failed to control the temper tantrums of his players resulting in confrontations with umpires (who have long memories...)

5. The 'holy water' affair with his injured players (my personal favorite...)

6. The Juan Uribe 'deke' which Dusty claimed wasn't the proper way to play baseball.

7. A close friend was quoted in Chicago papers as saying Dusty won't stay past his contract because 'Chicago doesn't want a black man to succeed.'

8. Can't handle a pitching staff (injuries to his starters caused in part by high pitch counts.)

Simply put this guy is a doofus.

Lip

ShoelessJoeS
06-08-2005, 01:04 AM
9. manages the cubs (where managers are put out to pasture)

SOXintheBURGH
06-08-2005, 01:15 AM
10. Allowed a baby to run onto the field in a World Series game. (But he was sooooo cute!)

ChiWhiteSox1337
06-08-2005, 01:57 AM
8. Can't handle a pitching staff (injuries to his starters caused in part by high pitch counts.)

Simply put this guy is a doofus.

Lip
His poor pitching moves(or therefore lack of moves in game 6 of the NLCS) also cost the Giants game 6 of the 2002 World Series and the Cubs game 6 of the 2003 NLCS, but that was a GOOD thing in my book. :D:

Optipessimism
06-08-2005, 02:27 AM
I'd like to add something else to this list but I think you've nailed it right on the head.

Dusty is usually referred to a 'players' manager,' but so is Ozzie. The difference between the two, IMO, and the reason Sox fans generally love or at least respect Ozzie while Cub fans largely dislike or criticize Baker, is because Ozzie says what is on his mind and speaks honestly, where as Dusty tries too hard to protect his players. If a player performs poorly or makes a stupid move in front of Ozzie, he will admit the mistake or shortcoming, but he will also point to another area where the player has excelled or where someone has come along to pick him up. For instance, remember the incident last year when Caballo hit that long double that he thought was a home run? Ozzie called him out for dogging it around the bases and in turn showed the fans and the media that he wasn't going to accept it. Ozzie made no excuses to try to back his player, and thus the matter was eventually dropped in the media (up until the Lee trade). On the other hand, after the incident where Derreck Lee decided to take the advice of an opposing team's shortstop over that of his third base coach, instead of admitting that his player had a lapse and putting the matter to rest, Dusty backs his player by saying something so ridiculously stupid that it actually brings in more attention. Now, besides Dusty losing even more credibility, instead of Lee getting over it right away he has to hang around and listen to it discussed on the radio and read it in the paper simply because his manager is a mental midget. I'm sure that Derreck is aware that even Dusty himself knows what he said is BS. If I'm the player, I'd rather have the manager just come up to me and get on me for not paying attention.

Fredsox
06-08-2005, 07:50 AM
He's made a lot of stupid statements, but I suppose we all do at times. The truth is that he does not know how to manage a pitching staff effectively and the team's record and the pitching injuries bear this out. Additionally he struggles with clubhouse discipline and control. He's not a good manager in the empirical sense if you define management as accomplishing goals through the efforts of others.

It's been MHO that a player's manager is someone who gets players to follow enthusiastically. It does not mean that you give them whatever they want. You can be a player's manager and a company man at the same time, they're not mutually exclusive, and I agree that Ozzie is a perfect example of this. Joe Torre, Bobby Cox, and Tony LaRussa are as well. The players play hard because they share a common vision. Clearly the cubs don't have that.

34 Inch Stick
06-08-2005, 08:52 AM
Dusty Baker is not without his flaws. However, you cannot lose site of the fact that he has taken an organization that had not had back to back winning seasons in 30+ years to three (probably) winning seasons in a row. He also took them to the cusp of a World Series birth.

Now you may respond that the Cubs spent an unprecedented amount of money on talent and that they won in spite of him. Well the Cubs had some very talented teams in that 30+ year span (some considered them the best team in the NL in 84) and yet they could not even squeeze out 2 winning seasons.

Furthermore, Dusty has a track record of incredible success. Those Giants teams were not great on paper but they always ended up in the playoffs.

You either have to believe that Dusty is the luckiest manager in the history of the game or simply understand that he is good at what he does.

DrCrawdad
06-08-2005, 08:58 AM
Dusty Baker is not without his flaws. However, you cannot lose site of the fact that he has taken an organization that had not had back to back winning seasons in 30+ years to three (probably) winning seasons in a row. He also took them to the cusp of a World Series birth.

Now you may respond that the Cubs spent an unprecedented amount of money on talent and that they won in spite of him. Well the Cubs had some very talented teams in that 30+ year span (some considered them the best team in the NL in 84) and yet they could not even squeeze out 2 winning seasons.

Furthermore, Dusty has a track record of incredible success. Those Giants teams were not great on paper but they always ended up in the playoffs.

You either have to believe that Dusty is the luckiest manager in the history of the game or simply understand that he is good at what he does.

The other side of that coin is that Dusty had the best player in years and failed to win the World Series.

Dusty's team choked with 3 games to one lead, with the final two games being at home.

Dusty's Cubbies did win back-to-back winning seasons, but I fail to see the major accomplishment in that. Dusty has been graced with a pitching staff ballyhooed as the best in baseball. Don Baylor won 89 games with the Cubbies with a much less talented pitching staff.

DrCrawdad
06-08-2005, 09:02 AM
I'm not a Cub fan (obviously) but if I were I'd be calling for Dusty's head. After today's ludicrous comments on WSCR radio, this guy is clearly losing his mind both on and off the field.

Here's a list (in no particular order) of Dusty's faux paus' (feel free to add any that I missed...)

1. Says Cubs are at a disadvantage because they play so many day games, allowing opponents to 'scout' them on TV before they play their night game.

2. Says dark skinned players are better equipped to handle the heat then white skinned players.

3. Immediately after the 'Bartman incident' blamed him for the loss. (He'd back off after cooling off later...)

4. Failed to control the temper tantrums of his players resulting in confrontations with umpires (who have long memories...)

5. The 'holy water' affair with his injured players (my personal favorite...)

6. The Juan Uribe 'deke' which Dusty claimed wasn't the proper way to play baseball.

7. A close friend was quoted in Chicago papers as saying Dusty won't stay past his contract because 'Chicago doesn't want a black man to succeed.'

8. Can't handle a pitching staff (injuries to his starters caused in part by high pitch counts.)

Simply put this guy is a doofus.

Lip

9. Dusty and Ron Santo calling out Jerry Manuel and the Sox for celebrating an exciting bottom of the ninth win over the Cubbies. Then the Cubbies did virtually the same thing the Sox did in celebrating a win just a short time later.

Dusty is a hypocrite.

34 Inch Stick
06-08-2005, 09:08 AM
The other side of that coin is that Dusty had the best player in years and failed to win the World Series.

Dusty's team choked with 3 games to one lead, with the final two games being at home.

Dusty's Cubbies did win back-to-back winning seasons, but I fail to see the major accomplishment in that. Dusty has been graced with a pitching staff ballyhooed as the best in baseball. Don Baylor won 89 games with the Cubbies with a much less talented pitching staff.

That pitching staff was only healthy during his first year and they were a great team. Look at this year where he has cobbled together pitchers like Mitre, Koronka, Rusch, Dempster etc. with no help from the bullpen and he has a winning record. Look at who they have lost this year. They have no business being in a playoff race with this team.

DrCrawdad
06-08-2005, 09:53 AM
That pitching staff was only healthy during his first year and they were a great team. Look at this year where he has cobbled together pitchers like Mitre, Koronka, Rusch, Dempster etc. with no help from the bullpen and he has a winning record. Look at who they have lost this year. They have no business being in a playoff race with this team.

Talk to me about the Cubbies being in the playoff race when they are closing on the Cards or when they've got a substantial lead in the Wild Card or they're leading with a few weeks to go. There are 105 games left talk of the Wild Card Race at this point is ludicrous. It's just pabulum from Cubbie lovers.

Last I heard from Cubbie fans Rusch and Dempster were great pitchers, and proof of the prowess of the Cubbies in pulling these studs from the scrape heap. And Mitre and Koronka were just more pitching studs from the Cubbies productive farm system.

The Cubbies had an easy stretch of their schedule along with a virus hobbled Padres team to beat up on. Let's see how they do with the B-Jays (now lost the series) and the Red Sox. They may end up right where they were before the hot streak, under .500.

DrCrawdad
06-08-2005, 10:01 AM
That pitching staff was only healthy during his first year and they were a great team. Look at this year where he has cobbled together pitchers like Mitre, Koronka, Rusch, Dempster etc. with no help from the bullpen and he has a winning record. Look at who they have lost this year. They have no business being in a playoff race with this team.

Oh, and Dusty had this great pitching staff in tact when they lost the NLDS (with a 3-1 lead and home field advantage). And Dusty had this great pitching staff in tact when the Cubbies failed down the stretch last season. In fact last year they blew it while facing depleted teams, teams with rosters filled with AAA fodder.

34 Inch Stick
06-08-2005, 10:24 AM
His closer was gone and Clement was scrapped at the end of the year. As far as the NLCS goes, I look at it as a testament to his quality that they got that far. Like I said, he is not without his warts and mismanagement in critical games is definitely one of his warts. However you cannot dispute his success. Now you seem to attribute that success to luck I attribute it to some skill as a coach.

Dan H
06-08-2005, 10:37 AM
Dusty's big legacy will be not coming out to calm his team after the Bartman incident. Things like that happen frequently in baseball. But Dusty just sat there and the Cubs fortunately unraveled.

Mendoza Line
06-08-2005, 10:47 AM
Don't forget his juvenile comments to that 19 year old girl.. and his use of his son to shield himself from difficult questions.

The Cubune will eventually turn on him and make him a scapegoat. Once they fire him (and I have a feeling it's bound to happen in the next couple years) the Cubune will gladly roast him in the same manner as Sammy Sosa.

Lip Man 1
06-08-2005, 10:57 AM
News for Dave van Dyke...the Cubs no longer 'lead' the Wild Card race. LOL

Lip

santo=dorf
06-08-2005, 01:03 PM
He also played stupid during the Scammy corked bat fiasco.

http://www.greatertalent.com/graphics/speakers/baker.jpg
"I ain't never seen a corked bat in my life before. In fact, I dont ever remember seeing cork in my life before. I drink screw top wine."

The Racehorse
06-08-2005, 01:52 PM
I have to think it'll be #3... talk about one of the game's greatest debacles. :cool:

Flight #24
06-08-2005, 03:49 PM
That pitching staff was only healthy during his first year and they were a great team. Look at this year where he has cobbled together pitchers like Mitre, Koronka, Rusch, Dempster etc. with no help from the bullpen and he has a winning record. Look at who they have lost this year. They have no business being in a playoff race with this team.

And there's no relation between his use of those pitchers in that first year and their subsequent injuries? Just like it was just "bad luck, dude" that Chad Fox's arm fell off after being heavily used in his first week back from major arm surgery?

You create your own luck. And good managing shows over a lot longer period than a couple weeks. As does bad managing, which has been observed on the N. Side now for a couple of years.

DrCrawdad
06-08-2005, 10:12 PM
His closer was gone and Clement was scrapped at the end of the year. As far as the NLCS goes, I look at it as a testament to his quality that they got that far. Like I said, he is not without his warts and mismanagement in critical games is definitely one of his warts. However you cannot dispute his success. Now you seem to attribute that success to luck I attribute it to some skill as a coach.

If you give Dusty credit for success, and he surely desires some, doesn't he also desire blame for the flops and failures?

If you don't see what happened last year as a flop down the stretch and if you don't think Dusty deserves at least some blame for it, then I wonder if you're Dusty or his agent.

The Cubbies completely lost focus at the end of the season last year and it cost the Cubbies. Same in the NLCS, 3-1 and losing three straight, Dusty certainly deserves blame for that too.

Also, please answer this survey for me... (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=46505)

Johnny Mostil
06-08-2005, 10:33 PM
I'm not a Cub fan (obviously) but if I were I'd be calling for Dusty's head. After today's ludicrous comments on WSCR radio, this guy is clearly losing his mind both on and off the field.

Here's a list (in no particular order) of Dusty's faux paus' (feel free to add any that I missed...)

1. Says Cubs are at a disadvantage because they play so many day games, allowing opponents to 'scout' them on TV before they play their night game.

2. Says dark skinned players are better equipped to handle the heat then white skinned players.

3. Immediately after the 'Bartman incident' blamed him for the loss. (He'd back off after cooling off later...)

4. Failed to control the temper tantrums of his players resulting in confrontations with umpires (who have long memories...)

5. The 'holy water' affair with his injured players (my personal favorite...)

6. The Juan Uribe 'deke' which Dusty claimed wasn't the proper way to play baseball.

7. A close friend was quoted in Chicago papers as saying Dusty won't stay past his contract because 'Chicago doesn't want a black man to succeed.'

8. Can't handle a pitching staff (injuries to his starters caused in part by high pitch counts.)

Simply put this guy is a doofus.

Lip

#4 and #8 more than make your point, but I'm not sure all the others are that serious.

Cubs players and, especially, fans have had variations of #1, blaming day games for the team's poor performance, for decades.

Everybody from Dusty to Moises Alou to 35K braying jackasses at the game to multitudes of jackasses who weren't at the game but brayed incessantly in the subsequent days/weeks/months(/years?) was guilty of #3. Dusty even said pretty quickly (backing off, as you said) that he wanted to win Game 7 to take the undeserved onus off Steve B.

Paulie K. could be charged on #6 as well, as WSI thrashed out in a nearly-five-tomato (!) thread.

Regarding #7, quotes from Dusty's "close friend," well, how many of us want to be responsible for everything all our "close friends" say?

TomBradley72
06-08-2005, 11:46 PM
Don't forget his juvenile comments to that 19 year old girl.. and his use of his son to shield himself from difficult questions.



I remember watching this BS after a tough Cub loss....only manager in MLB to use his son as a prop.

irish rover
06-09-2005, 12:18 AM
at the time of this post, sox up 12-4 over COl, Cle up-5-1 over SD in the 8th, and the twinks up 8-0 vs Ari,all games in NL parks another of the dude's theories gone wrong