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cburns
06-07-2005, 03:04 PM
I don't know how many of you have seen the replays of this or not, but when I first saw the play I thought it was a legit play, but after watching all of the replays Estrada wasn't blocking the plate at all and Erstad went out of his way to drill him. I definitely had flashbacks to Burke/Hunter. Hopefully the Braves retaliate tonight. What does everyone else think about the play?

TaylorStSox
06-07-2005, 03:07 PM
I thought it was a clean play, just like when Hunter nailed Burke. If it's my guy running down the catcher, he's going to level the guy wearing pads too. Both were clean plays and ppl that cry about them are being babies.

D. TODD
06-07-2005, 03:10 PM
I don't know how many of you have seen the replays of this or not, but when I first saw the play I thought it was a legit play, but after watching all of the replays Estrada wasn't blocking the plate at all and Erstad went out of his way to drill him. I definitely had flashbacks to Burke/Hunter. Hopefully the Braves retaliate tonight. What does everyone else think about the play? I don't have a big problem with Erstad. He made a split second decision and took out the catcher, it is part of the game. The Braves were pissed because they feel Erstad had room to slide as Estrada was not blocking the plate, but he could have made a sweep tag, and Erstad felt he was to close to take that chance. Braves should send a message, because that is part of the game as well. In conclusion :tongue: I have no problem with the play, and no problem with the Braves retaliating.

maurice
06-07-2005, 03:22 PM
Ozzie should give a tape of that play to Dye and Rowand.

Chisox003
06-07-2005, 03:48 PM
Erstad didnt really have the benefit of instant replay at the time of the collision, so there is no way he could have seen if Estrada was really blocking the plate...If the catcher is any where near the plate and looks as if he is setting up for a play, the baserunner has every right to nail him, just like Hunter did Burke last year (unfortunately)

Now if Estrada had his mask off, standing 8 feet away from the plate with his hands on his hips and Erstad still nailed him......:gulp:

voodoochile
06-07-2005, 03:50 PM
Happened to catch a bit of a discussion on this last night on BBTN. I don't normally watch, but channel surfing and there was the play, so I stayed to find out what happened.

They made a good point - the runner makes the decision to go after the catcher well up the line and the body just takes over. Unlike the Burke play, Estrada was right on top of the plate, receiving the ball and clearly going to try and tag Erstad out.

I thought the Erstad play was clearly clean. I thought the Hunter play was borderline cheapshot.

NSSoxFan
06-07-2005, 03:52 PM
I thought the Erstad play was clearly clean. I thought the Hunter play was borderline cheapshot.

I agree, it was a clean play. Estrada was just caught in the process of catching the ball and turning to get ready for impact, which he obviously had no time to do. Erstad isn't a cheapshot kind of guy, although I hate him for always killing our Sox.

bluestar
06-07-2005, 04:13 PM
I have no problem with the play other than Erstad putting his arm out and smashing Estrada in the head. I think the arm action was a bit unnecessary, but it was just tough, hard baseball. I also agree with D. TODD, I wouldn't have a problem with the Braves retaliating. If I'm the Braves starting pitcher tonight, the first pitch to Erstad is going to be the hardest fastball I can throw right at the body.

ja1022
06-07-2005, 04:16 PM
I'd call it "grinder" baseball. Contact at home plate is part of the game. That is one of the reasons catchers today are generally taught to use hockey style head gear and keep it on for plays at the plate. AJ uses the old style helmet and mask. Check out the replay and you'll see Estrada did have his head gear on and there was contact up there.

Jjav829
06-07-2005, 04:53 PM
I have no problem with what Erstad did. Estrada was clearly blocking the plate. Erstad either had to attempt an acrobatic slide or go through Estrada. He chose the latter. Even the Braves announcers agreed that it was clean and went out of their way to say that Erstad isn't a cheap player. This play was a bit different than the Hunter incident.

Patrick134
06-07-2005, 05:28 PM
What i find odd is that Erstad and Estrada have last names with almost the same letters in them, just rearranged. Maybe Erstad was knocking the extra "A" out of Estrada.

bartmanisgod
06-07-2005, 05:35 PM
I thought it was a clean play. I didn't really have a problem with it. However, I think Erstad should probably get drilled with a fastball in his ribcage his first at bat tonight. That was my biggest problem last year. That we didn't retaliate and drill Hunter with a pitch. That way its even and you move on. It's part of the game

Jjav829
06-07-2005, 05:37 PM
I thought it was a clean play. I didn't really have a problem with it. However, I think Erstad should probably get drilled with a fastball in his ribcage his first at bat tonight. That was my biggest problem last year. That we didn't retaliate and drill Hunter with a pitch. That way its even and you move on. It's part of the game

Huh? It's a clean play but he should get drilled? Why should Erstad get drilled for something that is clean? You drill a guy if he shows your team up or does something dirty. You don't drill a guy for playing hard, clean baseball.

67sox
06-07-2005, 05:55 PM
you don't drill him, but you take advantage of any opportunity that presents itself to take out one of the Angels fielders on a similarly aggressive play.


remembe el caballo going into 2nd like his wife was turning the double play?

Irishsox1
06-07-2005, 11:12 PM
Erstads play was clean because the catcher was almost on top of the plate. Yes, Erstad led with the forearm to the face, but the catcher had his mask on. Clean, but rough play.

As for Torri Hunters, I still say that it was a cheap play. Burke was set up for a sweep tag and Hunter ran out of the baseline to hit him. The next series the Sox played the Twins, Hunter was hit in the first inning. So, I think the Sox thought it was a dirty play. I would love to see Hunter try that on Pierzinski!

Iguana775
06-07-2005, 11:24 PM
Good to see he hasnt forgotten his Nebraska football coaching. Way to take him out! lol Loved it.

ShoelessJoeS
06-07-2005, 11:24 PM
definitely a clean play, thats baseball, thats why the catchers are so well padded. why does anyone even debate this?

ma-gaga
06-07-2005, 11:51 PM
I would love to see Hunter try that on Pierzinski!

He's on your team, spell his name right.

Erstad's was legit, Hunters was borderline at best.

But the biggest difference in my mind is the message sent. Erstad's was in an interleague game against the Braves?!? Hunter's was against a division rival and ended their season.

shoota
06-07-2005, 11:53 PM
Good to see he hasnt forgotten his Nebraska football coaching. Way to take him out! lol Loved it.

Though Erstad was a punter, IIRC.

I didn't see the play, but I did read Erstad's postgame quote about it. He was very direct and honest, and from his statements, I agree with his decision to hit Estrada. Erstad also said he hopes Estrada was not hurt on the play.

Mr. White Sox
06-08-2005, 12:08 AM
Maybe Erstad was upset that Estrada has Erstad's letters + an extra 'A'. Yep.

ChiSoxRowand
06-08-2005, 12:45 AM
The Braves tried to drill Erstad in the first inning of Tuesdays game, but the pitch went behind him. Both benches were warned and I don't think anything happened after that.

FarWestChicago
06-08-2005, 12:48 AM
He's on your team, spell his name right.I spell it Persnickety.

MUsoxfan
06-08-2005, 02:23 AM
I may take alot of heat for this, but I thought the play was very borderline. He dove at the catcher, not the plate. Further evidence is how he had to go way out of his way to touch the plate after the fact. The catcher was not on the line. IMO that was a dirty play.

ja1022
06-08-2005, 08:26 AM
I spell it Persnickety.

I spell it Prickzynski--a carry over from his Twins days, but now said with a new found level of respect. :wink:

Uncle_Patrick
06-08-2005, 09:13 AM
I didn't think this play was dirty at all. I've seen the reply a bunch of times now and I must be missing what all the naysayers are seeing. People want to compare it to the Hunter-Burke play, but I think its a little different in that, to me, it seemed that Estrada was in a much better position to make the out then Burke was.

I'm actually quite surprised by how many people think it was a dirty play. I've seen this discussion on another website (not related to either the Angels or the Braves) where quite a few people thought a tag was avoidable if Erstad had slid (one poster suggested that Erstad could have slid head first!), but I just don't see that.

maurice
06-08-2005, 01:21 PM
quite a few people thought a tag was avoidable if Erstad had slid . . . , but I just don't see that.

Agree. Besides, he has no obligation to slide away from contact. The base path belongs to the base runner. If you don't want to get blown up, get the heck out of the way.

Uncle_Patrick
06-08-2005, 01:39 PM
Agree. Besides, he has no obligation to slide away from contact. The base path belongs to the base runner. If you don't want to get blown up, get the heck out of the way.

Exactly. What I thought was particularly hilarious was the suggestion that Erstad slide head first. I've always heard that its better for a player to avoid sliding head first into home to avoid injury, particularly on a close play like that.

DaleJRFan
06-08-2005, 01:43 PM
I may take alot of heat for this, but I thought the play was very borderline. He dove at the catcher, not the plate. Further evidence is how he had to go way out of his way to touch the plate after the fact. The catcher was not on the line. IMO that was a dirty play.

I thought so too. The whole baseline side of the plate was open, he could have thrown down a hookslide in there. But hell, at least the Braves know how we feel. Had he not collided with Estrada, we'd all be watching highlights of another player injuring himself by sliding head-first into home plate. I'm still on the fence a little I suppose, but to me, he could have slid into homeplate.

That retaliation pitch lastnight was pathetic! Throw at his head. ...Just Pathetic!

maurice
06-08-2005, 01:58 PM
Just ask Jeter what happens when you slide head-first into a catcher's shinguards.

ja1022
06-08-2005, 02:00 PM
Without the replay fresh in my memory, my take is Erstad figured his best opportunity to score was taking on Estrada. There's no doubt in my mind that a creative slide could have got the plate also. Recall Vlad's slide when he got hurt--wide of home, headfirst and reaching back and slapping home (and again, getting hurt). Likewise, I think feet first away from the swipe tag and reaching out to the plate had a chance. Erstad chose contact and scored. Hard nose? Yes. Dirty, cheap shot? No.

shoota
06-08-2005, 02:25 PM
People want to compare it to the Hunter-Burke play, but I think its a little different in that, to me, it seemed that Estrada was in a much better position to make the out then Burke was.

I agree it's different even though I haven't seen the Estrada play. I read that Erstad knocked the ball loose from Estrada on contact. Jamie Burke didn't even have the ball when Torii Hunter hit him. That's a big difference.

I didn't see the throw behind Erstad, but most of the time, that is a purpose pitch, not intended to hit the batter. Kind of a nice way of retaliating. The first time I remember it happening was when Clemens was thrown behind by a Mets pitcher.

I don't think Erstad's hit was dirty, and Atlanta might not either, thus no need for retaliation. But it's still good for team unity and out of respect for Estrada to send a warning pitch that doesn't hit Erstad.

Jjav829
06-08-2005, 02:32 PM
I thought so too. The whole baseline side of the plate was open, he could have thrown down a hookslide in there. But hell, at least the Braves know how we feel. Had he not collided with Estrada, we'd all be watching highlights of another player injuring himself by sliding head-first into home plate. I'm still on the fence a little I suppose, but to me, he could have slid into homeplate.

That retaliation pitch lastnight was pathetic! Throw at his head. ...Just Pathetic!

You're joking, right? You want them to throw at his head for a play that wasn't dirty? You must have left out the teal.

TaylorStSox
06-08-2005, 03:07 PM
Why does everyone think the Hunter play was dirty? If a catcher is anywhere near the basepath, you take him out. That's good baseball. I was at the game and I was mad. But, I would want my guys to do the same thing. I've been waiting for Frank to do it for 15 years.

DaleJRFan
06-08-2005, 03:13 PM
You're joking, right? You want them to throw at his head for a play that wasn't dirty? You must have left out the teal.

That's not what I meant, maybe I wasn't clear. Don't throw it 3 feet behind him, actually HIT THE GUY.

Stroker Ace
06-08-2005, 08:46 PM
It was a clean play. Estrada has to be prepared to take that sort of collision. Erstad isn't someone with the body of David Eckstein where you don't have to be worried about being knocked on your a--.

PaulDrake
06-09-2005, 12:13 PM
I may take alot of heat for this, but I thought the play was very borderline. He dove at the catcher, not the plate. Further evidence is how he had to go way out of his way to touch the plate after the fact. The catcher was not on the line. IMO that was a dirty play. IMO you are right, but that sure doesn't seem to be the consensus here.