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View Full Version : Time for Shingo and Timo to Go


TomBradley72
06-06-2005, 11:07 AM
It's time to make the move....with interleague play and a long season in front of us....these two players are clogging up the roster. Shingo needs to go to Charlotte to get the work he needs to get back on track...there must be a decent arm somewhere in the system (beside BMc...who needs the regular work in AAA)...so we don't have to wear out Hermanson, Marte, etc.

With Frank back (and Gload coming back soon)....Carl Everett can platoon with Rowand or Dye when we want a left handed OF in the line up...Timo has had some nice moments...but I'd be inclined to keep Willie Harris on the roster...more versatilty (IF and OF), more speed, and with guys like Thomas, Konerko and AJ in the everyday line up...you need to have some pinch runners available in the late innings.

TBlock29
06-06-2005, 11:11 AM
Everyone talks about Shingo...What about Marte??? I think its time to say good-bye to Marte and get someone else in here. Thats how many games he blew for us...

tschneid83
06-06-2005, 11:16 AM
Everyone talks about Shingo...What about Marte??? I think its time to say good-bye to Marte and get someone else in here. Thats how many games he blew for us...

I dont believe marte needs to be traded but he needs to learn how to keep the ball low in the zone. When he is down in the zone he dominates. Then he likes to try and sneak that high one in that i think i could get a good piece of lumber on. Not sure if this is a call from the bench, catcher, or if he just cant put the high ones in a good place. Shingo is the exact same way. He either leaves the ball up in the zone for a HR or he misses the outside corner which is then followed up by the ball up in the zone. Once he can start putting them pitches back on that outside corner to the righties he will be fine. right now he does not have them leaning they are just sitting back ready to fire.

samram
06-06-2005, 11:22 AM
I dont believe marte needs to be traded but he needs to learn how to keep the ball low in the zone. When he is down in the zone he dominates. Then he likes to try and sneak that high one in that i think i could get a good piece of lumber on. Not sure if this is a call from the bench, catcher, or if he just cant put the high ones in a good place. Shingo is the exact same way. He either leaves the ball up in the zone for a HR or he misses the outside corner which is then followed up by the ball up in the zone. Once he can start putting them pitches back on that outside corner to the righties he will be fine. right now he does not have them leaning they are just sitting back ready to fire.

Marte is just going through a bad period right now. All relievers do. He'll be fine.

White Sox Josh
06-06-2005, 11:30 AM
It's time to make the move....with interleague play and a long season in front of us....these two players are clogging up the roster. Shingo needs to go to Charlotte to get the work he needs to get back on track...there must be a decent arm somewhere in the system (beside BMc...who needs the regular work in AAA)...so we don't have to wear out Hermanson, Marte, etc.

With Frank back (and Gload coming back soon)....Carl Everett can platoon with Rowand or Dye when we want a left handed OF in the line up...Timo has had some nice moments...but I'd be inclined to keep Willie Harris on the roster...more versatilty (IF and OF), more speed, and with guys like Thomas, Konerko and AJ in the everyday line up...you need to have some pinch runners available in the late innings.I agree with Ozzie on this. "If we start sending people down because they have bad outings or a bad week or a bad month, we might be running out of players," Guillen added.

kevingrt
06-06-2005, 11:34 AM
Marte is just going through a bad period right now. All relievers do. He'll be fine.

Agree with you there.

I agree with the topic of the post too. Send Shingo down to Triple AAA, he needs work and he needs to regain confidence in every pitch especially his fastball. I think Shingo can be a solid reliever, but he needs confidence which he has none right now.

As for Timo, he must go. Everyone loves Timo, it's tough not to. I mean Hawk's "Come on Timo" call last year was classic. But he just is not needed on this team. Willie can always play CF, and Carl can play LF or RF. We also will get Gload, who may not be able to play the OF, but still is serviceable back up. Oh and I forgot Pablo who can play anywhere on the field. Just put Timo on waivers and hopefully he'll get picked up by someone because he's a good guy.

And I agree with an earlier post in how this team needs speed off the bench. With Frank, Paulie, and AJ we need all the speed we can get when we are tied in the bottom of the ninth with one of those three on third and one out.

I_Liked_Manuel
06-06-2005, 12:28 PM
timo needs to be the first to go, there's no doubt about it.

the problem with sending shingo down is that first of all, i doubt we can, and second is that we'll get a false sense of his stuff. he's going to look dominating when pitching to a bunch of 22 year olds that have never seen his stuff. he'll come back up and have the same problems.

FedEx227
06-06-2005, 12:32 PM
that we'll get a false sense of his stuff. he's going to look dominating when pitching to a bunch of 22 year olds that have never seen his stuff. he'll come back up and have the same problems.

A.k.a. Last year

SSN721
06-06-2005, 12:51 PM
I love how a guy who seems to get an opportunity about once every two weeks to pitch all the sudden becomes the downfall of the team. I am too lazy to look up stats now but I would say Shingo has had maybe 3 or 4 bad outings. In comparison I think every person in the bullpen should be sent down. 8 of 9 when given the opportunity. He strikes me as the type of pitcher that needs to actually get work to stay sharp. He gets to pitch once a week, goes in, looks rusty, like any other pitcher would, and then all the sudden he is the worst pitcher that ever lived. It really seems like Ozzie doesnt like him at all. I dont know how he dropped below Viz on Ozzies ****list. I think Viz has pitched far more poorly over more innings then Viz. Yet he gets opportunity after opportunity while Shingo gets no work at all. If Ozzie doesnt want him then send him down, or release him if you cant. No sense in keeping him in the pen if Ozzie is never going to use him. In my opinion I think he should be getting as much work as Viz keeps getting. But its just my opinion, its hard to improve, stay sharp, pitch well when you get no opportunity to pitch.

PicktoCLick72
06-06-2005, 12:58 PM
Originally Posted by TBlock29
Everyone talks about Shingo...What about Marte??? I think its time to say good-bye to Marte and get someone else in here. Thats how many games he blew for us...

Great idea. And who do you suppose we bring up for Marte. There is no one in the minors that can replace him. Besides he is just going through a rough period, he will be fine in a couple weeks.

Deadguy
06-06-2005, 12:59 PM
It's time to make the move....with interleague play and a long season in front of us.....

Plus we need room for when KW convinces Roberto Alomar to come out of retirement, and close in on 3,000 hits with the White Sox.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-06-2005, 01:00 PM
Get a clue. Marte is left-handed. He isn't going anywhere.

ondafarm
06-06-2005, 01:19 PM
Get a clue. Marte is left-handed. He isn't going anywhere.

Marte can be deadly against lefties, if he keeps the ball down and doesn't fall behind guys. But he's 2 of 5 in save opportunities and had 6 bad outings of 26.

Shingo has had 6 of 19 outings being bad (where he was scored on) and is still 8 of 9 in save opportunities

Marte isn't going anywhere, but I think Ozzie needs to ease up on his usage. I don't know what Shingo did to Ozzie lately, but I think he should get some more work.

JB98
06-06-2005, 01:21 PM
timo needs to be the first to go, there's no doubt about it.

the problem with sending shingo down is that first of all, i doubt we can, and second is that we'll get a false sense of his stuff. he's going to look dominating when pitching to a bunch of 22 year olds that have never seen his stuff. he'll come back up and have the same problems.

Maybe or maybe not. If Shingo gets sent to triple-A and dominates a bunch of kids, that could be a good thing because it would give him some confidence. I think lack of control is his biggest problem, and sometimes, that's a result of lacking confidence/being afraid to throw a strike.

I can't believe someone posted that Marte needs to go. He struggled in the Anaheim series, but his teammates picked him up and rallied to win each of those first two games. I thought Damaso was good on Saturday vs. Cleveland. Yesterday, he made one bad pitch to Hafner, and it cost him. Thankfully, Frank picked him up in the bottom of the inning. Marte is struggling, but contrary to what the poster said, he is not "blowing games."

balke
06-06-2005, 01:26 PM
Marte 2.42 ERA 25 K's
Shingo 6.91 ERA 16 K's

Marte blows 1 run games, Shingo BLOWS OPEN 3 run games. Get a clue people. Hermanson was just as "bad" as Marte yesterday.

That being said, I'd like to see Shingo get some work this week if he can. Sox just need to get a big lead for the relievers, or get blown out, to see if Shingo has worked through anything yet.

SOXSINCE'70
06-06-2005, 01:33 PM
Marte 2.42 ERA 25 K's
Shingo 6.91 ERA 16 K's

Marte blows 1 run games, Shingo BLOWS OPEN 3 run games. Get a clue people. Hermanson was just as "bad" as Marte yesterday.


I agree.But let's not expect Hermanson not to blow a save
or 2 along the way.And yes,you're right;Shingo needs to pitch
this week.Let's see what he and Vizcaino have (God help me!).:cower:

StockdaleForVeep
06-06-2005, 01:59 PM
We need to hope that shingo would do good in AAA and not get his stuff murdered by a wetnosed 19 year old punk.

tacosalbarojas
06-06-2005, 02:01 PM
Marte 2.42 ERA 25 K's
Shingo 6.91 ERA 16 K's

Marte blows 1 run games, Shingo BLOWS OPEN 3 run games. Get a clue people. Hermanson was just as "bad" as Marte yesterday.

That being said, I'd like to see Shingo get some work this week if he can. Sox just need to get a big lead for the relievers, or get blown out, to see if Shingo has worked through anything yet.I think Shingo should have gotten the call yesterday in the 12th or somewhere else along the line. I'm not writing Shingo off just yet, but it seems like Ozzie is. And if that's the case, then yeah, dump him. Otherwise, you've got to see what he can do in a pressure situation at some point. And with Hermanson going for the fourth game in a row, he needed a blow (and the others going well had been used up as well). Would have been the perfect opportunity.

shoota
06-06-2005, 02:03 PM
Great idea. And who do you suppose we bring up for Marte. There is no one in the minors that can replace him. Besides he is just going through a rough period, he will be fine in a couple weeks.

He will be fine in a couple of weeks? How do you know that? 2005 Marte is like 2004 Marte. He will not improve to 2003 Marte in "a couple weeks."

I thought our bullpen was going to be a team strength before the season started, but now I realize it's a liability.

Coming into the season, I assumed:
-Shingo would match last year's success, and talk of the league catching up to him was hogwash.
-Vizcaino would be a dependable, quality pitcher.
-Hermanson would be a dependable, quality pitcher.
-Politte would continue to be the dependable, quality pitcher he's always been for us.
-Marte's 2004 was a bad year, and I hoped for a return to 2003 form.
-Cotts would continue to suck.


I was right about Politte and Hermanson only. Cotts improved, to my surprise. Everyone else has vastly fallen short of my expectations.

balke
06-06-2005, 02:50 PM
Seriously, do you people sniff glue all day? Are there not enough braincells rattling around in there to form complete thoughts? Send a top 10 league lefty to the minors because he's blown 3 save opportunities? Wagner has blown quite a few opportunities this season as well. No reliever is lights out, look at Gagne even. Its one thing to be upset with Marte's performance, but you seriously must have something wrong with you mentally if you think Marte needs to be gotten rid of or sent to AAA.

samram
06-06-2005, 02:50 PM
He will be fine in a couple of weeks? How do you know that? 2005 Marte is like 2004 Marte. He will not improve to 2003 Marte in "a couple weeks."

I thought our bullpen was going to be a team strength before the season started, but now I realize it's a liability.

Coming into the season, I assumed:
-Shingo would match last year's success, and talk of the league catching up to him was hogwash.
-Vizcaino would be a dependable, quality pitcher.
-Hermanson would be a dependable, quality pitcher.
-Politte would continue to be the dependable, quality pitcher he's always been for us.
-Marte's 2004 was a bad year, and I hoped for a return to 2003 form.
-Cotts would continue to suck.


I was right about Politte and Hermanson only. Cotts improved, to my surprise. Everyone else has vastly fallen short of my expectations.

Marte's ERA is in the mid-2's. Who are they gonna find in the minors to replace him?

Exactly.

As I posted in another "Let's Change the Whole Team Thread", the Sox have the best record in baseball, even with Marte on the team (imagine that!), and there's no reason to make a change that brings an inexperienced guy up now- you want to go through the Arnie Munoz experience again?

shoota
06-06-2005, 03:23 PM
Marte's ERA is in the mid-2's. Who are they gonna find in the minors to replace him?

Exactly.

As I posted in another "Let's Change the Whole Team Thread", the Sox have the best record in baseball, even with Marte on the team (imagine that!), and there's no reason to make a change that brings an inexperienced guy up now- you want to go through the Arnie Munoz experience again?

My point in complaining about our roster/team/individual player is that it's not my job to find a better replacement. I complain at the player and then complain more if KW fails to fix the problem. Until I'm put on the White Sox payroll, I'll just worry about complaining about players who suck.

Just because I'm not aware of a better replacement for any player I'm complaining about, doesn't mean that player doesn't suck. So, stop using the questioning "Who are you going to realistically replace [bad player] with"-argument as a defense for the bad player.

samram
06-06-2005, 03:40 PM
My point in complaining about our roster/team/individual player is that it's not my job to find a better replacement. I complain at the player and then complain more if KW fails to fix the problem. Until I'm put on the White Sox payroll, I'll just worry about complaining about players who suck.

Just because I'm not aware of a better replacement for any player I'm complaining about, doesn't mean that player doesn't suck. So, stop using the questioning "Who are you going to realistically replace [bad player] with"-argument as a defense for the bad player.

Well, I'm not saying you can't complain, it's just that KW has to ask the replacement question before he actually makes a move. I just don't think you can find a guy to replace him without giving up a significant amount of talent.

rdwj
06-06-2005, 03:47 PM
So, stop using the questioning "Who are you going to realistically replace [bad player] with"-argument as a defense for the bad player.

Lol! That's the silliest thing I've read in a long time.

When you learn how grow major league ballplayers in a lab, let us know!

MUScholar21
06-06-2005, 03:51 PM
HEY! YOU GUYS KNOW WE ARE IN FIRST PLACE, AND HAVE THE BEST RECORD IN BASEBALL, RIGHT?

Sweet Jesus, you'd think we were rooting for the Royals here. Quit whining, and enjoy the ride.

And before any of you say it, I'm not saying moves could be made. But everyone needs to sit back, relax, and enjoy baseball. We are all getting carried away with this stuff, and it is going to take away from the joy (if it hasn't already)

Ol' No. 2
06-06-2005, 03:53 PM
HEY! YOU GUYS KNOW WE ARE IN FIRST PLACE, AND HAVE THE BEST RECORD IN BASEBALL, RIGHT?

Sweet Jesus, you'd think we were rooting for the Royals here. Quit whining, and enjoy the ride.

And before any of you say it, I'm not saying moves could be made. But everyone needs to sit back, relax, and enjoy baseball. We are all getting carried away with this stuff, and it is going to take away from the joy (if it hasn't already)For some people, apparently, the joy is in the complaining.:(:

rdwj
06-06-2005, 03:59 PM
But everyone needs to sit back, relax, and enjoy baseball.

I was expecting "and strap it down", but I guess enjoy baseball is OK too :smile:

flo-B-flo
06-06-2005, 04:06 PM
He will be fine in a couple of weeks? How do you know that? 2005 Marte is like 2004 Marte. He will not improve to 2003 Marte in "a couple weeks."

I thought our bullpen was going to be a team strength before the season started, but now I realize it's a liability.

Coming into the season, I assumed:
-Shingo would match last year's success, and talk of the league catching up to him was hogwash.
-Vizcaino would be a dependable, quality pitcher.
-Hermanson would be a dependable, quality pitcher.
-Politte would continue to be the dependable, quality pitcher he's always been for us.
-Marte's 2004 was a bad year, and I hoped for a return to 2003 form.
-Cotts would continue to suck.


I was right about Politte and Hermanson only. Cotts improved, to my surprise. Everyone else has vastly fallen short of my expectations.:chickenlittle

White Sox Josh
06-06-2005, 04:36 PM
I love how a guy who seems to get an opportunity about once every two weeks to pitch all the sudden becomes the downfall of the team. I am too lazy to look up stats now but I would say Shingo has had maybe 3 or 4 bad outings. In comparison I think every person in the bullpen should be sent down. 8 of 9 when given the opportunity. He strikes me as the type of pitcher that needs to actually get work to stay sharp. He gets to pitch once a week, goes in, looks rusty, like any other pitcher would, and then all the sudden he is the worst pitcher that ever lived. It really seems like Ozzie doesnt like him at all. I dont know how he dropped below Viz on Ozzies ****list. I think Viz has pitched far more poorly over more innings then Viz. Yet he gets opportunity after opportunity while Shingo gets no work at all. If Ozzie doesnt want him then send him down, or release him if you cant. No sense in keeping him in the pen if Ozzie is never going to use him. In my opinion I think he should be getting as much work as Viz keeps getting. But its just my opinion, its hard to improve, stay sharp, pitch well when you get no opportunity to pitch.Exactly! When he pitches with less than 3 days rest than he has an ERA below 2. However his ERA is near 11 when he pitches on 3 or more days rest. Give him consistent work. In fact if you have a 2 or 3 run lead and you haven't used Hermey yet, why not put Shingo out there and if he gets in trouble bring in Hermey. Also Shingo's ERA is so high because he has had 2 bad outings. Those outings were against a primarily lefty lineup.

shoota
06-06-2005, 05:49 PM
For some people, apparently, the joy is in the complaining.:(:

Enjoying your Old Style in the bleachers?

PaleHoseGeorge
06-06-2005, 05:58 PM
Enjoying your Old Style in the bleachers?

:rolleyes:
This would be a most excellent insult if it wasn't utterly demonstrated in this thread how completely lacking in ANY sense of perspective you truly are.

:chickenlittle

FarWestChicago
06-06-2005, 06:02 PM
:rolleyes:
This would be a most excellent insult if it wasn't utterly demonstrated in this thread how completely lacking in ANY sense of perspective you truly are.No lie. Methinks shoota needs to get the meds refilled. :o:

kevingrt
06-06-2005, 06:09 PM
Exactly! When he pitches with less than 3 days rest than he has an ERA below 2. However his ERA is near 11 when he pitches on 3 or more days rest. Give him consistent work. In fact if you have a 2 or 3 run lead and you haven't used Hermey yet, why not put Shingo out there and if he gets in trouble bring in Hermey. Also Shingo's ERA is so high because he has had 2 bad outings. Those outings were against a primarily lefty lineup.

So do we give the same exception to Vizcanio. He only had a couple, two or three bad outings and his ERA is high too. Shingo has shown no confidence throughout the year, and when are we going to put him in a game? Our bats can never get us out to a commanding lead where we don't need to worry about a couple homers in an inning.

The Racehorse
06-06-2005, 08:24 PM
Get a clue. Marte is left-handed. He isn't going anywhere.

Some folks here either forgot who Jesse Orosco was or are too young to know that lefty pitchers will ALWAYS have a job well into their late 30s & early 40s... unless their left arm gets amputated.

White Sox Josh
06-06-2005, 08:30 PM
So do we give the same exception to Vizcanio. He only had a couple, two or three bad outings and his ERA is high too. Shingo has shown no confidence throughout the year, and when are we going to put him in a game? Our bats can never get us out to a commanding lead where we don't need to worry about a couple homers in an inning.He is getting on top of his slider. With Shingo, if Hermy is warming up while Shingo is pitching than i wouldn't have a problem with it. If he gets into trouble bring Hermy in.

shoota
06-06-2005, 11:32 PM
:rolleyes:
This would be a most excellent insult if it wasn't utterly demonstrated in this thread how completely lacking in ANY sense of perspective you truly are.


Thank you. I was worried it was too vague and I thought about making it obvious by adding "Wrigley" before "bleachers." I'm glad it wasn't necessary. Good catch. :gulp:

jeremydavid
06-06-2005, 11:52 PM
Losing one or two games to get Shingo's confidence or mojo or whatever trip he was on last summer back could be very, very important to this ballclub's sucess over the year. I am not saying tomorrow, but eventaully, having the option to go to Shingo in high pressure situations would be amazing.

chaz171
06-07-2005, 01:36 PM
Some folks here either forgot who Jesse Orosco was or are too young to know that lefty pitchers will ALWAYS have a job well into their late 30s & early 40s... unless their left arm gets amputated.

Hey and to my knowledge Dave Dravecky even pitched after his left arm was amputated.....