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bluestar
06-04-2005, 07:51 PM
Apparently, Willie Harris is the odds-on favorite to be sent down to make room for Gload.

Link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050604&content_id=1075327&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws)

DaleJRFan
06-04-2005, 07:57 PM
good.

mjmcend
06-04-2005, 07:58 PM
I would much rather it be Timo.

JB98
06-04-2005, 07:59 PM
good.

Do you like any of our infielders? You want someone to show Crede and Uribe to the bench, and you're rejoicing over Willie being sent down. Geez.....

I'd send Perez down or just keep Gload down there.

DaleJRFan
06-04-2005, 08:02 PM
Do you like any of our infielders? You want someone to show Crede and Uribe to the bench, and you're rejoicing over Willie being sent down. Geez.....

I'd send Perez down or just keep Gload down there.

I just want Gload back. And you need to relax.

whitesoxfan
06-04-2005, 08:07 PM
i think Willie has done a good job on the bench so far this year. The move doesn't surprise me though because i figured the Sox wouldn't put Timo on waivers. Glad to see Gload coming back though :smile:

williefan22
06-04-2005, 08:10 PM
We need Willie up here. Late in games he is an amazing pinch runner to come off the bench. I really feel if he was given a full season to play he would be an excellent player. He wasn't given a fair chance last year as he wasn't given consistent playing time throughout the entire season. Oh well, I also am a huge fan of his so I am a little biased. Gload has been tearing it up in the minors I hear so it will be nice to have him back

DickAllen72
06-04-2005, 08:10 PM
That sucks! :angry: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb!

We already have trouble finding a way to get Everett, who can play outfield, his AB's now that Frank is back.

Harris can play infield as well as outfield. Timo can't.

Harris is fast. Timo isn't.

Harris can get on base at a high percentage. Timo doesn't.

Harris plays great defense at 2b. Timo plays great defense nowhere.

Harris plays passable defense at SS. Timo can't.

Harris plays passable defense in CF, as does Timo.

Harris is young and improving, Timo is already as good as he's ever going to be.

Send down Timo. He has options left. Ozuna can also play OF and 1B, the same positions Timo plays (if you count his "performance" at 1B the other night).

SEND DOWN TIMO!

JB98
06-04-2005, 08:13 PM
I just want Gload back. And you need to relax.

I'm completely relaxed. I'm just disagreeing with you.

Jurr
06-04-2005, 08:14 PM
That sucks! :angry: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb!

We already have trouble finding a way to get Everett, who can play outfield, his AB's now that Frank is back.

Harris can play infield as well as outfield. Timo can't.

Harris is fast. Timo isn't.

Harris can get on base at a high percentage. Timo doesn't.

Harris plays great defense at 2b. Timo plays great defense nowhere.

Harris plays passable defense at SS. Timo can't.

Harris plays passable defense in CF, as does Timo.

Harris is young and improving, Timo is already as good as he's ever going to be.

Send down Timo. He has options left. Ozuna can also play OF and 1B, the same positions Timo plays (if you count his "performance" at 1B the other night).

SEND DOWN TIMO!
I'm glad you have feelings about the subject.
The only thing that's going to keep Timo on this team is his clutch pinch hitting ability...period.
The guy seems to have ice water in his veins, and he's good for a number of these big hits every year, so that's probably why he's hanging around.

JB98
06-04-2005, 08:16 PM
That sucks! :angry: Dumb, Dumb, Dumb!

We already have trouble finding a way to get Everett, who can play outfield, his AB's now that Frank is back.

Harris can play infield as well as outfield. Timo can't.

Harris is fast. Timo isn't.

Harris can get on base at a high percentage. Timo doesn't.

Harris plays great defense at 2b. Timo plays great defense nowhere.

Harris plays passable defense at SS. Timo can't.

Harris plays passable defense in CF, as does Timo.

Harris is young and improving, Timo is already as good as he's ever going to be.

Send down Timo. He has options left. Ozuna can also play OF and 1B, the same positions Timo plays (if you count his "performance" at 1B the other night).

SEND DOWN TIMO!

Valid points. How many 1B/DH/corner outfielders do we need?

I can agree with either sending down Perez or just keeping Gload down there. Willie's versatility makes him a more valuable asset than either of those two players.

Jjav829
06-04-2005, 08:28 PM
I'm glad you have feelings about the subject.
The only thing that's going to keep Timo on this team is his clutch pinch hitting ability...period.
The guy seems to have ice water in his veins, and he's good for a number of these big hits every year, so that's probably why he's hanging around.

What about Willie's clutch hitting? Timo got all the praise for the game-winning hit on Monday, but people seem to forget that it was Willie Harris that pinch hit to lead off the inning and walked, starting that rally.

I'm hardly the leader or even a member of the Willie Harris fan club. But Willie Harris deserves a spot on this team over Timo Perez. The only reason I can see Timo staying is because Gload might not be able to play the OF.

Iguchi is not going to start every game. We've already seen Ozzie sitting him down often, which is probably a good move since Iguchi isn't used to playing a major league schedule. I think Willie has done a good job off the bench this year. Meanwhile, Timo really doesn't have a role. In late innings, Gload and Everett should be the first two bench players to pinch hit when need be. That only thing Timo offers is a good arm to play the OF. That really isn't that important. When Rowand needs a day off, Pods should move to center with Everett in left. Everett can handle either corner OF spot for a day to give the starters a day off. So what exactly does Timo offer? He's the second option behind Everett (possibly even third, after Ozuna) to spell the outfielders for days off. He's the third left-handed bat off the bench. He's the third option after Ozuna and Willie to pinch run. He offers nothing that should keep him on the bench over Willie. If this happens, it's a bad move.

I really hope money isn't a factor in this. The Sox swallowed Davis' $1 million salary and sent him down because it was the best move. I really hope they would do the same with Timo and that they wouldn't hesitate to have $2 million being payed to guys not on the 25-man roster.

Come on, Kenny. Make the right move. Cut Timo and keep Willie.

Madvora
06-04-2005, 08:29 PM
That makes absolutely no sense. I see Harris as a valuable backup on this team. He's going to be useful for the rest of the year.
How many uses are you going to have for Timo Perez with Thomas and Gload coming back up?

DickAllen72
06-04-2005, 08:30 PM
Valid points. How many 1B/DH/corner outfielders do we need?

I can agree with either sending down Perez or just keeping Gload down there. Willie's versatility makes him a more valuable asset than either of those two players.

Willie is probably the best defensive 2B on the team. It's nice having him play there when Iguchi needs a rest.

I like Pablo, but I feel much better with Willie starting at 2b when Iguchi can't play.

OHHH-EEEH-OHHH, Timo must go!

nedlug
06-04-2005, 08:31 PM
I would much rather it be Timo.

Agreed, whole-heartedly. Willie can be used as a PR, and has under-rated batting capabilities.

JB98
06-04-2005, 08:36 PM
Willie is probably the best defensive 2B on the team. It's nice having him play there when Iguchi needs a rest.

I like Pablo, but I feel much better with Willie starting at 2b when Iguchi can't play.

OHHH-EEEH-OHHH, Timo must go!

I absolutely agree that Willie is our top defensive 2B. He's done a fine job whenever called upon this year. I'd rather keep him over Ozuna too, but Pablo is out of options. In that regard, Willie is caught in a numbers game. I think most of us agree that Ozuna should stay, and we don't want to expose him to the waiver wire.

Despite that hit against Anaheim the other day, Perez's swing has been screwed up all year. He could play everyday in Charlotte and maybe get it back.

This is a tough problem for us, but it's also a good problem to have. If anyone gets hurt, we can recall Willie and feel comfortable that he can help us. We also have McCarthy, Adkins and Walker down there in the event we need a pitcher. Not to mention Jamie Burke. It is nice to have organizational depth for a change.

Tekk
06-04-2005, 08:45 PM
I'm one of few fans of Willie Harris around here and I believe this is a good move for him. It gives him a chance to play everyday, something he's not use to this year. Hopefully at AAA he'll get a chance to improve his game and be a more consistant hitter as well as a threat to steal bases, something he still needs to work on.

This move will only improve him and he'll do what it takes to make it back to Chicago. Goodluck Willie

DickAllen72
06-04-2005, 09:12 PM
I absolutely agree that Willie is our top defensive 2B. He's done a fine job whenever called upon this year. I'd rather keep him over Ozuna too, but Pablo is out of options. In that regard, Willie is caught in a numbers game. I think most of us agree that Ozuna should stay, and we don't want to expose him to the waiver wire.

Despite that hit against Anaheim the other day, Perez's swing has been screwed up all year. He could play everyday in Charlotte and maybe get it back.



I like Ozuna too. He's very versatile, fast, and every level he has played on he has proven to be a good hitter. Only injuries have kept him out of the big leagues until this year. He can play just about every position except probably pitcher and catcher.

Both Willie and Pablo are much more valuable to this team than Timo and they both should stay up here. Timo's main asset supposedly is as a "clutch" left handed pinch hitter. But Ross Gload also fills that role quite nicely, as he has proven last year.

It's obvious that Timo is Ozzie's favorite. Willie should try to learn Spanish down in AAA, and perfect his dugout dance that he was performing today. Then he'll have a better chance of sticking around next time up.

BTW, Willie had as much or more to do with that victory against Anaheim the other night working the pitcher for a pinch hit leadoff walk, then stealing second to get into scoring position and put added pressure on the pitcher and defense.

Ol' No. 2
06-04-2005, 09:27 PM
I must be in the wrong place. I could SWEAR just about everyone on this board wanted to trade Willie for a bag of used practice balls a few months ago.

Daver
06-04-2005, 09:29 PM
I have never seen more fans of a mediocre ballplayer than I have of Willie Harris.

Chisox003
06-04-2005, 09:33 PM
What a tough decision....

Well, Pablo's out of options, plus hes extremely versatile/dependable wherever he plays, so he stays....

Timo can only play OF (Dont even say he can play first base-He CANT!) but has been extremely clutch for the past year and a half....

Willie is solid at 2nd, and he too has actually been clutch this year....And, if for some reason, he has to play OF, he can....

This is tough either way, but one of them gots ta go....Glad Im not the one breaking the news to the unlucky one

gosox41
06-04-2005, 09:49 PM
Apparently, Willie Harris is the odds-on favorite to be sent down to make room for Gload.

Link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050604&content_id=1075327&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws)

I don't get that at all.



Bob

gosox41
06-04-2005, 09:50 PM
I have never seen more fans of a mediocre ballplayer than I have of Willie Harris.

Just wondering, how do you rate Timo Perez?


Bob

JB98
06-04-2005, 09:50 PM
I have never seen more fans of a mediocre ballplayer than I have of Willie Harris.

I'm not wearing a Harris jersey to the ballpark or anything, but I think he's done enough to keep his roster spot. Harris, Ozuna, Gload and Perez could all be described as "mediocre ballplayers" when you get right down to it. In this case, I'm championing the cause of Harris and Ozuna over Gload and Perez because I think the former two provide us with speed and versatility. Those two qualities are valuable in bench players.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-04-2005, 09:55 PM
I have never seen more fans of a mediocre ballplayer than I have of Willie Harris.

Yep. Yet another World's Tallest Midget contest. Harris beat out Jimenez two years ago. Now he's on the chopping block again. The guy is Mr. 25th Man.

If the difference is Harris gets sent down without needing to clear waivers, I'm all for keeping Timo. Otherwise I could care less which bit of roster filler gets tossed on the bone pile.

Now let the Friends of Willie keep fighting the brave fight. He's batting 1.000 in these tallest midget contests.
:cool:

DickAllen72
06-04-2005, 10:02 PM
If they send Willie down, you can't really use Ozuna as a pinch runner for Frank in a crucial spot because then it leaves you with no backup infielders on the bench should someone go down. If you do use Ozuna to run for Frank, you can't pinch hit later for Crede or Uribe or Iguchi (not that you'd want to for Tad) because you won't have any more IF's available.

Do you understand why this is such a bad move???

rowand33
06-04-2005, 10:10 PM
god, get timo out of here.

what the hell are they thinking?

Timo has been terrible this year, Harris has a .373 OBP!

Harris has more versatility.

are they crazy?

nedlug
06-04-2005, 10:11 PM
If they send Willie down, you can't really use Ozuna as a pinch runner for Frank in a crucial spot because then it leaves you with no backup infielders on the bench should someone go down. If you do use Ozuna to run for Frank, you can't pinch hit later for Crede or Uribe or Iguchi (not that you'd want to for Tad) because you won't have any more IF's available.

Do you understand why this is such a bad move???

Sure you can. But when substituting, you don't look at people getting injured - you deal with that when it comes up. It is nice to have versatility, and I don't agree with the move if it happens, but it isn't a horrible move.

Daver
06-04-2005, 10:12 PM
Just wondering, how do you rate Timo Perez?


Bob

He's the only guy on the bench that can play all three OF positions. I rank him mediocre, but better than Willie, at least Timo can give you a little power.

nedlug
06-04-2005, 10:14 PM
He's the only guy on the bench that can play all three OF positions. I rank him mediocre, but better than Willie, at least Timo can give you a little power.

But Willie has more speed.

Daver
06-04-2005, 10:14 PM
god, get timo out of here.

what the hell are they thinking?

Timo has been terrible this year, Harris has a .373 OBP!

Harris has more versatility.

are they crazy?

Versatility how?

He is an average second baseman and a below average CFer, and he can't play a corner outfield spot. He has speed, but has no clue on how to run the bases.

Sorry but the twenty fifth man fan club is running out of ammo.

Brian26
06-04-2005, 10:16 PM
If they send Willie down, you can't really use Ozuna as a pinch runner for Frank in a crucial spot because then it leaves you with no backup infielders on the bench should someone go down.

I believe Crede and Dye both proved to be very serviceable shortstops in Oakland :D:

milrtyme28
06-04-2005, 10:16 PM
my understanding is that Timo is out of options tho....

DickAllen72
06-04-2005, 10:17 PM
Sure you can. But when substituting, you don't look at people getting injured - you deal with that when it comes up. It is nice to have versatility, and I don't agree with the move if it happens, but it isn't a horrible move.

You can't pinch hit for Crede or any other IF if you've already used your only reserve IF as a pinch runner for the DH.

And many times, managers will refrain from using a bench player to pinch hit or pinch run if they have no other backups at a certain position available.

nedlug
06-04-2005, 10:17 PM
Let me get up to snuff on the option rules - how many times can a guy be sent down without going through waivers each year?

nedlug
06-04-2005, 10:18 PM
my understanding is that Timo is out of options tho....


I read that he wasn't on whitesox.com

BainesHOF
06-04-2005, 10:18 PM
Harris is a bush leaguer. Send him to the minors where he belongs.

veeter
06-04-2005, 10:19 PM
If the pitching staff keeps dealing it doesn't matter who they send down.

nedlug
06-04-2005, 10:19 PM
You can't pinch hit for Crede or any other IF if you've already used your only reserve IF as a pinch runner for the DH.

And many times, managers will refrain from using a bench player to pinch hit or pinch run if they have no other backups at a certain position available.

So you couldn't pinch-hit for Crede or others and do a defensive switch? I know my baseball rules, but I guess this one slipped my mind.

Ol' No. 2
06-04-2005, 10:19 PM
Let me get up to snuff on the option rules - how many times can a guy be sent down without going through waivers each year? Each player can be optioned in a maximum of three years, but there's no limit on the number of times he can go up and down in a given year.

Brian26
06-04-2005, 10:20 PM
I'm no big fan of Willie's either. I think a lot of people here are just concerened about not having a backup middle infielder while having 7 or 8 outfielders on the roster.

nedlug
06-04-2005, 10:20 PM
So that's in general, or with the same team? And do the Sox have any chance to reclaim a guy who's been claimed off of waivers?

gosox41
06-04-2005, 10:27 PM
He's the only guy on the bench that can play all three OF positions. I rank him mediocre, but better than Willie, at least Timo can give you a little power.


Interesting way to look at it. I'm not a big fan of Timo or Harris, but at this time think Harris has slightly more value to the team then Timo.


Bob

DickAllen72
06-04-2005, 10:28 PM
So you couldn't pinch-hit for Crede or others and do a defensive switch? I know my baseball rules, but I guess this one slipped my mind.

If you pinch run Ozuna for Frank, Ozuna become the DH.

Once a player is the DH, he can't play a position unless you give up the DH, then the pitcher has to bat.

Anyway you slice it, it's not good to have only one reserve IF on the bench, especially when he's your fastest runner on the bench and the guy you're keeping over another IFer is Timo Perez.

Ol' No. 2
06-04-2005, 10:30 PM
So that's in general, or with the same team? And do the Sox have any chance to reclaim a guy who's been claimed off of waivers?Three years for any number of teams. If a player is claimed off waivers, he's gone.

According to the Sox media guide, Perez used up options in 2001 and 2002, so he's got one left. The story on the Sox website says the same. He had a minor league rehab assignment in 2003, but that doesn't count. Maybe that's where the confusion stems from.

voodoochile
06-04-2005, 11:13 PM
He's the only guy on the bench that can play all three OF positions. I rank him mediocre, but better than Willie, at least Timo can give you a little power.

Thank you. In any given situation, Willie is the last guy I want pinch hitting. He also plays only one position on the field well and that is the position of the Sox most consistent player this year to date and a guy who is hands down a better defender than Harris will ever be.

I'd rather have Timo as a PR too.

Harris just ain't that good nor is he worth all the wailing and weeping going on in this thread. Harris's only serious shot to be a long term commodity to the Sox was if he could be their leadoff hitter. With Pods on the team, Willie is as expendable as they come. I expect this is a prelude to a trade actually.

nedlug
06-04-2005, 11:15 PM
I expect this is a prelude to a trade actually.

Any ideas on to/for whom? Middle relief help/prospects, I'd imagine...

voodoochile
06-04-2005, 11:17 PM
Any ideas on to/for whom? Middle relief help/prospects, I'd imagine...

No clue. It's just getting close to KW time in the season and the Sox can use some help. Harris has some solid numbers at present, so let him go down to AAA, kill the ball and look like a world beater for a month so someone will get all excited and give up more than he is worth in exchange.

Without adding a bunch of other players, Willie's value in trade is a utility infielder or a relief pitcher at best - both of which I would take in a heartbeat.

nedlug
06-04-2005, 11:28 PM
Let the conspiracy theories begin then, I suppose...

Jjav829
06-04-2005, 11:37 PM
Thank you. In any given situation, Willie is the last guy I want pinch hitting. He also plays only one position on the field well and that is the position of the Sox most consistent player this year to date and a guy who is hands down a better defender than Harris will ever be.

I'd rather have Timo as a PR too.

Harris just ain't that good nor is he worth all the wailing and weeping going on in this thread. Harris's only serious shot to be a long term commodity to the Sox was if he could be their leadoff hitter. With Pods on the team, Willie is as expendable as they come. I expect this is a prelude to a trade actually.

Why would you rather have Timo as a pinch-runner than Willie? For that matter, why would you rather have Timo as a pinch-hitter? Willie beats Timo in both categories. Not only is Willie 10 times faster than Timo, but he's also been a better pinch-hitter over the past 3 years. The "Willie can't steal a base" thing doesn't hold water in pinch-running situations. When you pinch run, you're rarely going to be asking a guy to steal a base. More often you pinch run so that a guy can score from 1st on a double, 2nd on a single, or 3rd on a sac fly. Criticize Willie as a base-stealer all you want, and BTW I didn't hear many people complaining about his bottom of the 9th steal on Monday - but there's no argument about the fact that Willie can run laps around Timo.

I just don't quite understand all the bashing of Willie Harris. He's posted a .275/.373 line in limiting playing time this year. He's shown great patience at the plate, walking 8 times in 61 plate appearances. He's 4 out of 5 stealing. His defense at 2nd has been fine, and he provides a great backup/platoon option for Iguchi. Regardless of how good Iguchi has been thus far, he's probably not going to be playing in 140 games and there's a good chance that as the season goes on, he will wear down. It's important for Ozzie to keep Iguchi fresh with frequent rest as Iguchi adjusts to a 160 game season. Willie provides this option.

Frankly, I don't even see why there's a question about this. The other option is Timo Perez who is currently hitting .197. As I said in a previous post, with everyone healthy Timo is: The third left-handed hitter off the bench, the third pinch-runner off the bench, and the second (or third) backup OF off the bench. He brings nothing special to the team except some memories of a few big hits. In fact, other than power, there's only one thing Timo beats Willie in; salary.

voodoochile
06-04-2005, 11:52 PM
Why would you rather have Timo as a pinch-runner than Willie? For that matter, why would you rather have Timo as a pinch-hitter? Willie beats Timo in both categories. Not only is Willie 10 times faster than Timo, but he's also been a better pinch-hitter over the past 3 years. The "Willie can't steal a base" thing doesn't hold water in pinch-running situations. When you pinch run, you're rarely going to be asking a guy to steal a base. More often you pinch run so that a guy can score from 1st on a double, 2nd on a single, or 3rd on a sac fly. Criticize Willie as a base-stealer all you want, and BTW I didn't hear many people complaining about his bottom of the 9th steal on Monday - but there's no argument about the fact that Willie can run laps around Timo.

I just don't quite understand all the bashing of Willie Harris. He's posted a .275/.373 line in limiting playing time this year. He's shown great patience at the plate, walking 8 times in 61 plate appearances. He's 4 out of 5 stealing. His defense at 2nd has been fine, and he provides a great backup/platoon option for Iguchi. Regardless of how good Iguchi has been thus far, he's probably not going to be playing in 140 games and there's a good chance that as the season goes on, he will wear down. It's important for Ozzie to keep Iguchi fresh with frequent rest as Iguchi adjusts to a 160 game season. Willie provides this option.

Frankly, I don't even see why there's a question about this. The other option is Timo Perez who is currently hitting .197. As I said in a previous post, with everyone healthy Timo is: The third left-handed hitter off the bench, the third pinch-runner off the bench, and the second (or third) backup OF off the bench. He brings nothing special to the team except some memories of a few big hits. In fact, other than power, there's only one thing Timo beats Willie in; salary.

I don't hate Willie, I just don't see him being that valuable to the team. It has as much to do with the fact that the only position he plays is 2B and I would never take him on the field over Iguchi.

Perez offers more at the plate in terms of knowledge and in terms of power (WAY more power). Perez may not be as fast as Harris, but he is plenty fast enough to score from 1st on a double and does add the dimension of being a more consitent base stealer historically.

Harris also has more trade value because of the single most powerful word in the baseball vocabulary - "potential". If Harris is ever going to truly develop he should be playing every day. If the Sox are done trying with him (and I can't see a position for him to play in the next few years) then he should go to AAA, tear it up and be used as trade bait to a team that isn't as set at 2B as the Sox are currently.

He just doesn't have a serious niche on the team that couldn't better be filled by a guy like Gload who gives the Sox much more offensive ability.

Corlose 15
06-04-2005, 11:56 PM
Why are people under the impression that Ozuna can play 1st base? He's played all of one inning professionally at that position and yet people on here consider it one of his strenghts.:?:

Jjav829
06-05-2005, 12:10 AM
I don't hate Willie, I just don't see him being that valuable to the team. It has as much to do with the fact that the only position he plays is 2B and I would never take him on the field over Iguchi.

Perez offers more at the plate in terms of knowledge and in terms of power (WAY more power). Perez may not be as fast as Harris, but he is plenty fast enough to score from 1st on a double and does add the dimension of being a more consitent base stealer historically.

Harris also has more trade value because of the single most powerful word in the baseball vocabulary - "potential". If Harris is ever going to truly develop he should be playing every day. If the Sox are done trying with him (and I can't see a position for him to play in the next few years) then he should go to AAA, tear it up and be used as trade bait to a team that isn't as set at 2B as the Sox are currently.

He just doesn't have a serious niche on the team that couldn't better be filled by a guy like Gload who gives the Sox much more offensive ability.

But would you ever take Timo on the field over Pods, Rowand or Dye? We're not talking about either player as a regular starter. We're talking about what they could potentially do when called upon to start in order to give someone a day off or when brought off the bench.

I think you're seriously overrating Timo here. First, he's not that smart of a hitter and his knowledge of the strike zone is seriously lacking. Timo has never walked more than 23 times in a year. In that year, 2002, he had 481 plate appearances. By comparison, Willie had 472 plate appearances last year and walked 51 times. There's no question as to which player has more discipline at the plate and the better knowledge of the strike zone. Second, he isn't a better base stealer. Timo is a career 50% base stealer (21 out of 42). Willie, in comparison, is a career 81% base stealer (43 out of 53).

I think Willie has a much better niche on this team than Timo. With Gload back, what is Timo's role on this team? If you're looking for a left-handed batter late in the game that can hit a ball deep, would you really want to pass up on Everett and Gload for Timo? The only thing Timo provides is that little extra power off the bench. But when there are two better options, he isn't really needed. Willie, on the other hand, provides a leadoff type hitter off the bench. We saw a great example of this on Monday. He lead off the 9th, pinch hitting against a tough righty, and proceeded to walk, then steal 2nd. Willie gives Ozzie a great option off the bench to pinch hit a leadoff type hitter in situations that dictate such a move. And his speed is such that he's a much better option on the bases than Timo. I just don't see why Timo even deserves a roster spot. All Timo would do is take away at-bats from more deserving players. Hell, we already saw what Timo's great range did in Anaheim. If Ozzie plays that like he should, and puts a real centerfielder in center, 3 runs likely never cross the plate. But because of Timo's lack of speed, two balls weren't caught and those led to 3 runs.

Norberto7
06-05-2005, 12:18 AM
We need Willie up here. Late in games he is an amazing pinch runner to come off the bench. I really feel if he was given a full season to play he would be an excellent player. He wasn't given a fair chance last year as he wasn't given consistent playing time throughout the entire season. Oh well, I also am a huge fan of his so I am a little biased. Gload has been tearing it up in the minors I hear so it will be nice to have him back

Would we expect anything less from "williefan22"? :D: Though, I do agree that Harris is more valuable than Timo, based largely on his ability to spell Iguchi, as mentioned here previously.

Perez offers more at the plate in terms of knowledge and in terms of power (WAY more power).

25 home runs in almost 1500 career at bats is WAY more power? :?: Granted, Harris only has four in his career, but if power is a justification for keeping Timo around, than 1 home run about every 60 at bats just doesn't seem worth it.

beckett21
06-05-2005, 12:20 AM
But would you ever take Timo on the field over Pods, Rowand or Dye? We're not talking about either player as a regular starter. We're talking about what they could potentially do when called upon to start in order to give someone a day off or when brought off the bench.

I think you're seriously overrating Timo here. First, he's not that smart of a hitter and his knowledge of the strike zone is seriously lacking. Timo has never walked more than 23 times in a year. In that year, 2002, he had 481 plate appearances. By comparison, Willie had 472 plate appearances last year and walked 51 times. There's no question as to which player has more discipline at the plate and the better knowledge of the strike zone. Second, he isn't a better base stealer. Timo is a career 50% base stealer (21 out of 42). Willie, in comparison, is a career 81% base stealer (43 out of 53).

I think Willie has a much better niche on this team than Timo. With Gload back, what is Timo's role on this team? If you're looking for a left-handed batter late in the game that can hit a ball deep, would you really want to pass up on Everett and Gload for Timo? The only thing Timo provides is that little extra power off the bench. But when there are two better options, he isn't really needed. Willie, on the other hand, provides a leadoff type hitter off the bench. We saw a great example of this on Monday. He lead off the 9th, pinch hitting against a tough righty, and proceeded to walk, then steal 2nd. Willie gives Ozzie a great option off the bench to pinch hit a leadoff type hitter in situations that dictate such a move. And his speed is such that he's a much better option on the bases than Timo. I just don't see why Timo even deserves a roster spot. All Timo would do is take away at-bats from more deserving players. Hell, we already saw what Timo's great range did in Anaheim. If Ozzie plays that like he should, and puts a real centerfielder in center, 3 runs likely never cross the plate. But because of Timo's lack of speed, two balls weren't caught and those lead to 3 runs.

I'm as anti-Willie as anyone, but I have to say you make a compelling argument here. I've been impressed with the way Willie has handled himself this year after losing his starting job to Iguchi. I really can't say anything negative about his play this year, except maybe for a defensive lapse or two.

I really can't believe I'm typing this, but I would agree that Harris should remain with the club. Yipes. :redneck

Jjav829
06-05-2005, 12:28 AM
I'm as anti-Willie as anyone, but I have to say you make a compelling argument here. I've been impressed with the way Willie has handled himself this year after losing his starting job to Iguchi. I really can't say anything negative about his play this year, except maybe for a defensive lapse or two.

I really can't believe I'm typing this, but I would agree that Harris should remain with the club. Yipes. :redneck

Hey, I'm not exactly bafiarocks when it comes to Willie Harris. :D:

I can't say I have strong feelings on him either way. I don't dislike him, nor do I have any great liking for him. But the best move for the team IMO is to keep Willie Harris around and utilize the things he does well.

voodoochile
06-05-2005, 12:28 AM
But would you ever take Timo on the field over Pods, Rowand or Dye? We're not talking about either player as a regular starter. We're talking about what they could potentially do when called upon to start in order to give someone a day off or when brought off the bench.

I think you're seriously overrating Timo here. First, he's not that smart of a hitter and his knowledge of the strike zone is seriously lacking. Timo has never walked more than 23 times in a year. In that year, 2002, he had 481 plate appearances. By comparison, Willie had 472 plate appearances last year and walked 51 times. There's no question as to which player has more discipline at the plate and the better knowledge of the strike zone. Second, he isn't a better base stealer. Timo is a career 50% base stealer (21 out of 42). Willie, in comparison, is a career 81% base stealer (43 out of 53).

I think Willie has a much better niche on this team than Timo. With Gload back, what is Timo's role on this team? If you're looking for a left-handed batter late in the game that can hit a ball deep, would you really want to pass up on Everett and Gload for Timo? The only thing Timo provides is that little extra power off the bench. But when there are two better options, he isn't really needed. Willie, on the other hand, provides a leadoff type hitter off the bench. We saw a great example of this on Monday. He lead off the 9th, pinch hitting against a tough righty, and proceeded to walk, then steal 2nd. Willie gives Ozzie a great option off the bench to pinch hit a leadoff type hitter in situations that dictate such a move. And his speed is such that he's a much better option on the bases than Timo. I just don't see why Timo even deserves a roster spot. All Timo would do is take away at-bats from more deserving players. Hell, we already saw what Timo's great range did in Anaheim. If Ozzie plays that like he should, and puts a real centerfielder in center, 3 runs likely never cross the plate. But because of Timo's lack of speed, two balls weren't caught and those lead to 3 runs.

I just don't see Harris as being that big of a loss. Yes, you are correct, I like the OF starters defensively more than I like Timo, but at least Timo covers three positions which means he is more likely to be necessary in an emergency than Harris.

In terms of wanting a leadoff hitter sitting on the bench, I have to admit, that you have a point except for one thing. I just don't trust Willie with the bat in his hands, period. He never seems to have a plan and he provides no pop. Maybe the numbers favor Willie this season, but honestly, I'd take gload over either one of them for a guy to reach base, heck, I'd take Everett or Frank too. The Sox are going to be loaded with better offensive options than Willie Harris now that Frank is back and Gload is coming up. Late in games with a few runs necessary to get back into it and a pinch hitter coming up, Willie just doesn't cut it for me. Needing one run, I'd rather have a guy who stands a chance to smack one out of the park and doesn't give up that much OBP to a guy with a slightly higher OBP and no power. Doubly so in the AL.

Beyond all of that, we still are aruging about the 25th man on the bench. It just isn't that big a deal. It is unlikely to cost the Sox even one game this year if the 25th man is Timo or Willie. There just isn't that big of a difference between them.

BRDSR
06-05-2005, 12:36 AM
I think we're all missing the most important aspect of this discussion: What does bafiarocks think of the prospect of losing Willie Harris to the minors?!

I really don't think Harris deserves to be demoted right now. On the other hand, I don't really think anyone deserves to be demoted so...I guess someone has to be. Unless Gload just stays there, continues to tear it up, and we trade him for some relief or something. Honestly, Gload might be the most expendable person on the roster right now.

Rocklive99
06-05-2005, 01:06 AM
Personally, I don't like Gload, I still remember him costing us in the Flubs series last years more than once, he's reminds me of Jeff Liefer, who I don't like. Of course, there's the whole thing about the 1b backup and lh stick, send down Viz!

Well actually, I think Timo would be more logical to send down, we have an abundance of outfielders, and if worst comes to worst, Willie can play center, but Timo can't play the infield. Willie is faster, and has really progressed on the offensive side, becoming extremely patient and looking for his pitch, and if not, he'll take the walk. It's a shame with that speed that his stealing mechanics are out of whack

Banix12
06-05-2005, 02:36 AM
I think Willie has a much better niche on this team than Timo. With Gload back, what is Timo's role on this team? If you're looking for a left-handed batter late in the game that can hit a ball deep, would you really want to pass up on Everett and Gload for Timo? The only thing Timo provides is that little extra power off the bench. But when there are two better options, he isn't really needed. Willie, on the other hand, provides a leadoff type hitter off the bench. We saw a great example of this on Monday. He lead off the 9th, pinch hitting against a tough righty, and proceeded to walk, then steal 2nd. Willie gives Ozzie a great option off the bench to pinch hit a leadoff type hitter in situations that dictate such a move. And his speed is such that he's a much better option on the bases than Timo. I just don't see why Timo even deserves a roster spot. All Timo would do is take away at-bats from more deserving players. Hell, we already saw what Timo's great range did in Anaheim. If Ozzie plays that like he should, and puts a real centerfielder in center, 3 runs likely never cross the plate. But because of Timo's lack of speed, two balls weren't caught and those led to 3 runs.

Here's my take on what Timo's role will be on the sox, defensive sub in the OF. Other than Rowand or Dye, none of the sox OF have strong arms in the OF other than Timo. I know Gload, Willie and Ozuna can all play OF but none of them really have the Arm strength that Timo has. Also, Willie hasn't played any OF this year yet so I don't know how much Ozzie wants to play him there. It could be he doesn't trust him that much in the OF anymore, though that's just specualtion.

Though i do think that with Gload coming up and likely becoming the primary pinch hitter, Timo's role is gonna be severly diminished. Though frankly so would Willie's. Even with this movie, Timo's time with the sox could still be numbered if he continues to struggle.

i wouldn't doubt the options have a lot to do with this as well, we would likely lose Timo if he was designated for assignment because there are teams that could use a 4th OF like him. We can keep Willie no problem and if one of the infielders goes down he'd be up here no problem.

SomebodyToldMe
06-05-2005, 02:41 AM
good.

I second that.

Shorty1983
06-05-2005, 12:19 PM
Count me in on keeping Willie, he deserves it. I didn't think it would work out this year shifting Harris/Iguchi at 2B. So far it played out good for both players, I'd much rather see Timo sent down. Willie also seems to be learning alot of things from Pods and Raines base running philosophy.

soxfan43
06-05-2005, 01:36 PM
I'm not a big Timo fan or Willie fan but after reading everyones posts combined with my personal opinion, I think it's clear Timo should go. Yes he's a veteran and can play 3 OF positions but wow who cares. Carl can play RF and LF now and then. Willie can play CF and Ozuna can play in outfield as well. Leaving Ozuna as the only backup infielder is just stupid. Especially with the way Uribe and Crede can slump at times. But either way, it's nice having the best record in baseball and I'm just glad the biggest argument going on June is about teh 25th man.

Ol' No. 2
06-05-2005, 01:40 PM
After reading this discussion, here's my opinion: I don't care. Not because it's just a tallest midget contest, but because I think it's highly likely either Willie or Timo will be included in whatever trade Kenny engineers. If the one that gets traded is on the major league roster, the other will probably be brought back up. So it's probably a short-term issue at most. Until then, each brings something to the team and it's pretty much a draw.

Jurr
06-05-2005, 01:45 PM
Willie sent down????? I have been waiting for this moment since 2003.
I'm getting all misty eyed just thinking about my dreams coming true.

Shorty1983
06-05-2005, 01:53 PM
Willie sent down????? I have been waiting for this moment since 2003.
I'm getting all misty eyed just thinking about my dreams coming true.

What ever happened to the word loyalty? Like him or hate him, Willie is one of us and came up through out system. Now you just going to throw him under the bus. Good things happen when you stick with your team players, look what happened to Garland.

Jurr
06-05-2005, 01:59 PM
What ever happened to the word loyalty? Like him or hate him, Willie is one of us and came up through out system. Now you just going to throw him under the bus. Good things happen when you stick with your team players, look what happened to Garland.
Willie came up through the Orioles system, and when we got him, he was supposed to be the heir apparent to Ray Durham.

Ozzie worked, worked, and worked some more with Willie to bunt and steal, in hopes of making him a Juan Pierre type player. Instead, he sits planted on first on those rare instances he gets on base. Yes, Willie is a good pinch runner and his range is pretty good at second, but he's just not much of an asset, and he takes up space on a bench that needs contributions from its members.

Talent supercedes loyalty. That's why Pablo Ozuna is going to be sitting his merry butt on that USCF bench and not the Knight's Castle.

champagne030
06-05-2005, 02:19 PM
But would you ever take Timo on the field over Pods, Rowand or Dye? We're not talking about either player as a regular starter. We're talking about what they could potentially do when called upon to start in order to give someone a day off or when brought off the bench.

I think you're seriously overrating Timo here. First, he's not that smart of a hitter and his knowledge of the strike zone is seriously lacking. Timo has never walked more than 23 times in a year. In that year, 2002, he had 481 plate appearances. By comparison, Willie had 472 plate appearances last year and walked 51 times. There's no question as to which player has more discipline at the plate and the better knowledge of the strike zone. Second, he isn't a better base stealer. Timo is a career 50% base stealer (21 out of 42). Willie, in comparison, is a career 81% base stealer (43 out of 53).

I think Willie has a much better niche on this team than Timo. With Gload back, what is Timo's role on this team? If you're looking for a left-handed batter late in the game that can hit a ball deep, would you really want to pass up on Everett and Gload for Timo? The only thing Timo provides is that little extra power off the bench. But when there are two better options, he isn't really needed. Willie, on the other hand, provides a leadoff type hitter off the bench. We saw a great example of this on Monday. He lead off the 9th, pinch hitting against a tough righty, and proceeded to walk, then steal 2nd. Willie gives Ozzie a great option off the bench to pinch hit a leadoff type hitter in situations that dictate such a move. And his speed is such that he's a much better option on the bases than Timo. I just don't see why Timo even deserves a roster spot. All Timo would do is take away at-bats from more deserving players. Hell, we already saw what Timo's great range did in Anaheim. If Ozzie plays that like he should, and puts a real centerfielder in center, 3 runs likely never cross the plate. But because of Timo's lack of speed, two balls weren't caught and those led to 3 runs.

I agree. I think Willie has a better role on this team than Timo. I would manage the team differently than Ozzie, but I'm not and that's why I think Willie has more value than Timo. Ozzie likes to keep his bench players fresh by giving them a start about once a week. This seems to be working very well with Harris and Iguchi. This does not work well with Timo. IMO - the choice of Willie/Timo as a PH would fall to Timo, but only as a PH. I would much rather have Willie start one game a week than Timo. Ozzie has said from day 1 that he'll ease Iguchi into MLB and that doesn't appear as if it's going to change. I actually like giving Iguchi a day off against some of the tough RH's and letting Willie bat #2. Not as much pressure, just move Pod's over, work the count, bunt him over......not Timo's strength. Timo should never start for this team, but that's not Ozzie's philosophy. He'll start his bench players and we have many better options in the OF/DH/1B than Timo.

A. Cavatica
06-05-2005, 02:31 PM
Nooooo! Don't send down Willie! He's awesome and I love him!!!!

Seriously, Timo should be the one to pack his bags.

bafiarocks03
06-05-2005, 09:42 PM
omg omg omg...no! No freaking way!! there is no way!!! Willie Is staying up here!! i hugged him today!! oh wow!!!:D: today was a good day! but anyway...NO! willie isn't going anywere!!!:angry: