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White Sox Josh
06-04-2005, 10:20 AM
I think that the biggest disapointment so far has been Vizcaino. I had very high expectations for him this year after seeing him with the Brewers. I thought he could have an ERA under 3. He has done nothing this year. At least all the other guys in this poll are starting to turn things around (exception of Crede).

Hangar18
06-04-2005, 10:34 AM
I had a strong feeling that Jermaine Dye was going to be doing what hes doing .......which is nothing. Vizcaino I expected more from, but then
lets remember, he was an NL pitcher who was doing ok. Put him in a league with way better hitters and this is what were seeing.

The Racehorse
06-04-2005, 10:35 AM
Viz... I watched allot of ST games [via mlb.tv] and thought he looked pretty good, which had me thinking KW trading El Caballo was sheer genius.

While I appreciate Pods and his contributions so far, I would consider that trade to be even... but getting back to Viz, he apparently is someone who needs allot of work to be effective [something I think Steve Stone said], which he won't get with our starting 5.

If KW parlays Viz as part of a trade that'll help for the stretch drive and beyond [like the Garcia aquisition], that'll put the El Caballo trade back into a new light.

rwschm_bull
06-04-2005, 10:43 AM
Shingo -- because he's been reduced to mop-up duty at present. I hope he turns it around and can get his confidence back. Finesse guys can get it back together (does the name Foulke ring a bell...)

Viz -- guess I didn't expect that much from him -- set-up work on a team out of contention by July 4th didn't convince me

White Sox Josh
06-04-2005, 10:44 AM
Viz... I watched allot of ST games [via mlb.tv] and thought he looked pretty good, which had me thinking KW trading El Caballo was sheer genius.

While I appreciate Pods and his contributions so far, I would consider that trade to be even... but getting back to Viz, he apparently is someone who needs allot of work to be effective [something I think Steve Stone said], which he won't get with our starting 5.

If KW parlays Viz as part of a trade that'll help for the stretch drive and beyond [like the Garcia aquisition], that'll put the El Caballo trade back into a new light.I've noticed this pattern with 3 guys: Shingo, Marte, and Vizcaino. When they've had a lot of work so far this year than they were very effective. This was why they were effective in late April/Early May.

White Sox Josh
06-04-2005, 10:45 AM
Shingo -- because he's been reduced to mop-up duty at present. I hope he turns it around and can get his confidence back. Finesse guys can get it back together (does the name Foulke ring a bell...)

Viz -- guess I didn't expect that much from him -- set-up work on a team out of contention by July 4th didn't convince meFoulke has been absolutley brutal this year. I think both he and Shingo will turn it around though.

Mickster
06-04-2005, 11:12 AM
I had a strong feeling that Jermaine Dye was going to be doing what hes doing .......which is nothing. Vizcaino I expected more from, but then
lets remember, he was an NL pitcher who was doing ok. Put him in a league with way better hitters and this is what were seeing.

Dye is batting .434 in the last week bringing up his BA from .212 to .240 in that span. He's on a 6 game hitting streak with multi-hit games in 1/2 of those games. Give him some time. I'm certainly not ready to throw in the towel on him yet.

The Racehorse
06-04-2005, 11:16 AM
I've noticed this pattern with 3 guys: Shingo, Marte, and Vizcaino. When they've had a lot of work so far this year than they were very effective. This was why they were effective in late April/Early May.

I'm not sure if I follow your line of thinking... but to clarify my line [of thinking], if Viz was basically the set-up guy day in and day out, he [probably] would be more effective.

Without going back and checking Viz's box score in April, I can see where his effectiveness deteriorated from the point of ST to now because of the lack 'game on the line' innings pitched.

Also, I remember someone saying during a telecast that Cooper's approach as pitching coach is to encourage the pitchers into trusting their 'stuff' and not get bogged down with mechanics. Maybe Viz's problem is more mechanics and that Cooper should work with Viz from that perspective. Last Wednesday nights espn game had Stone & Brantley saying Viz gets into trouble when he doesn't stay on top of his slider, allowing it to flatten out... just a thought.

MRKARNO
06-04-2005, 11:16 AM
Shingo by a lot. I didnt expect Vizcaino to be very good coming into this season, but I thought that Shingo would have at least been able to post an ERA in the 3's this year. Now he's pretty much worthless. At least Cotts and Politte have been solid to make up for that.

gobears1987
06-04-2005, 11:20 AM
:angry:I had a strong feeling that Jermaine Dye was going to be doing what hes doing .......which is nothing. Vizcaino I expected more from, but then
lets remember, he was an NL pitcher who was doing ok. Put him in a league with way better hitters and this is what were seeing.

Hangar, shut up about the whole losing Maggs and Lee thing. Dye is doing better than that crybaby Magglio would be doing. Carlos Lee would be producing better than Dye, but with Lee we would not get AJ, Gooch, and el Duque. While we would have a better hitting OF with Lee, we would have holes at 2B (you really want Harris starting every day?), catcher, and still in 5th starter hell. We also wouldn't have Pods. Part of the reason we are doing well is that we score runs in the 1st inning thanks to Pods and his near .300 batting average and 28 SBs that distract pichers.

Jermaine Dye is not a disappointment. He had a bad April, but he batted well over .300 in May and looks to be continuing his hot hitting this month. Let's also not forget that Dye is coming through in the clutch and is our new Cub killer. Get off of Dye's back. Given your comments about his play I get the feeling that you haven't watched a Sox game since early May.

BTW, Shingo is the biggest disappointment.

TheOldRoman
06-04-2005, 11:38 AM
:angry:

Hangar, shut up about the whole losing Maggs and Lee thing. Dye is doing better than that crybaby Magglio would be doing. Carlos Lee would be producing better than Dye, but with Lee we would not get AJ, Gooch, and el Duque. While we would have a better hitting OF with Lee, we would have holes at 2B (you really want Harris starting every day?), catcher, and still in 5th starter hell. We also wouldn't have Pods. Part of the reason we are doing well is that we score runs in the 1st inning thanks to Pods and his near .300 batting average and 28 SBs that distract pichers.
Does anyone else picture Hangar as Dale Dribble from King of the Hill? Always wired with a cigarette in his mouth; always wearing the tin-foil hat, talking about crazy conspiracies, and secret reasons why the Sox traded or let go of certain players.
"Dye is not doing better than Magglio. That's what they want you to think."
"The NL is naturally inferior. The government went to Bud Selig and told him to turn the NL into a minor league for the AL."
"Kenny Williams hates offense. He wants to win with great pitching and no offense. He said his ideal score is Sox 1, opponents -1. Furthermore, he asked his hitters to underperform as to prove his point that a team can win without hitting"
jk, hangar :cool:

FarWestChicago
06-04-2005, 12:49 PM
Does anyone else picture Hangar as Dale Dribble from King of the Hill? Always wired with a cigarette in his mouth; always wearing the tin-foil hat, talking about crazy conspiracies, and secret reasons why the Sox traded or let go of certain players.
"Dye is not doing better than Magglio. That's what they want you to think."
"The NL is naturally inferior. The government went to Bud Selig and told him to turn the NL into a minor league for the AL."
"Kenny Williams hates offense. He wants to win with great pitching and no offense. He said his ideal score is Sox 1, opponents -1. Furthermore, he asked his hitters to underperform as to prove his point that a team can win without hitting"
jk, hangar :cool::rolling: Now THAT is POTW material. :roflmao:

Ol' No. 2
06-04-2005, 12:54 PM
Vizcaino and Shingo have sucked about equally, but I expected more from Shingo, so he gets my vote.

FarWestChicago
06-04-2005, 12:58 PM
The Shingo situation has been quite distressing. Sometimes I still think he could become effective again if he threw an occasional strike someplace other than belt high in the middle of the plate. What the heck happened to his control? :?:

RKMeibalane
06-04-2005, 01:19 PM
The Shingo situation has been quite distressing. Sometimes I still think he could become effective again if he threw an occasional strike someplace other than belt high in the middle of the plate. What the heck happened to his control? :?:

I think he just hasn't figured out how to re-adjust to the AL, now that the hitters have adjusted to him. One woul think that a veteran pitcher would be able to make changes in his pitch sequence, location, velocity, etc. to keep hitters off balance, but Shingo hasn't been doing that. Now, he's lost his confidence and can't even do mop-up work.

FarWestChicago
06-04-2005, 01:25 PM
I think he just hasn't figured out how to re-adjust to the AL, now that the hitters have adjusted to him. One woul think that a veteran pitcher would be able to make changes in his pitch sequence, location, velocity, etc. to keep hitters off balance, but Shingo hasn't been doing that. Now, he's lost his confidence and can't even do mop-up work.I don't think it's an "adjustment" issue. Shingo has no control. He's always down in the count and having to throw a "get me over" fastball instead of being up and throwing frisbees. At least that's what it looks like to me.

RKMeibalane
06-04-2005, 01:27 PM
I don't think it's an "adjustment" issue. Shingo has no control. He's always down in the count and having to throw a "get me over" fastball instead of being up and throwing frisbees. At least that's what it looks like to me.

Then it must be a problem with his mechanics. I think he needs to go down to Charlotte and throw innings there before he should be allowed to work again. I think B-Mac can be effective in relief situations for a week or two.

samram
06-04-2005, 01:33 PM
Then it must be a problem with his mechanics. I think he needs to go down to Charlotte and throw innings there before he should be allowed to work again. I think B-Mac can be effective in relief situations for a week or two.

If they were to send Shingo down, I would rather they call up Bajenaru instead of having McCarthy break his pattern of pitching every fifth day in order to pitch every two or three days for two weeks.

Here's a possible problem: They send Shingo down to work on his mechanics, and he pitches well and gets a lot of outs. However, would that be because he actually figured some things out or because he would be facing minor leaguers who haven't seen him before?

RKMeibalane
06-04-2005, 01:41 PM
If they were to send Shingo down, I would rather they call up Bajenaru instead of having McCarthy break his pattern of pitching every fifth day in order to pitch every two or three days for two weeks.

Here's a possible problem: They send Shingo down to work on his mechanics, and he pitches well and gets a lot of outs. However, would that be because he actually figured some things out or because he would be facing minor leaguers who haven't seen him before?

Honestly, I think he gets lit up wherever he goes if he has a mechanical problem. So much of pitching depends on having the proper arm angle, release point, hand-grip on pitches, etc. If Shingo can't actually locate pitches the way he wants to, even minor leaguers will start hitting him eventually.