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View Full Version : Anyone Else think a major trade will happen?


HawkISox
06-03-2005, 12:44 PM
I dont know why, but I have a gut feeling Williams is going to make a large trade at some point...possibly for a quality left handed bat with power.

I think someone established might be traded...Don't know why...Just a gut feeling.

I think Vizcaino should be part of any trade. I think he is a quality reliever who the Sox just don't have enough work for, and I think he's a guy who needs to pitch 3 times a week to be sharp.

I could even see Konerko being traded.

pudge
06-03-2005, 12:46 PM
I could even see Konerko being traded.
Step away from the bong.

veeter
06-03-2005, 12:53 PM
Knowing Kenny Williams a trade will happen for sure. It's just a matter of who and when. I don't see PK going anywhere. I do think though, that KW is waiting to see Frank's impact before pulling the trigger for a hitter. I just hope they don't move either McCarthy or Gio. Those guys are prospects yes, but they are close to the bigs.

HawkISox
06-03-2005, 12:59 PM
Sweeney or Anderson will likely be involved I would guess.

mweflen
06-03-2005, 01:05 PM
the only trade I can see happening is one for Chavez. It will probably cost us Macarthy, however. Which personally, I'm all for - Chavez could help us now, while B-mac may or may not (and it really is a 50-50 crapshoot, despite what dreamers claim) help us 2 years from now.

mdep524
06-03-2005, 01:05 PM
Step away from the bong. There's nothing unrealistic about Konerko possibly being traded.

balke
06-03-2005, 01:06 PM
the only trade I can see happening is one for Chavez. It will probably cost us Macarthy, however. Which personally, I'm all for - Chavez could help us now, while B-mac may or may not (and it really is a 50-50 crapshoot, despite what dreamers claim) help us 2 years from now.



All reports per ESPN radio are saying Beane says Chavez will NOT be traded to anyone.

Hangar18
06-03-2005, 01:09 PM
I dont know why, but I have a gut feeling Williams is going to make a large trade at some point...possibly for a quality left handed bat with power.

I think someone established might be traded...Don't know why...Just a gut feeling.

I think Vizcaino should be part of any trade. I think he is a quality reliever who the Sox just don't have enough work for, and I think he's a guy who needs to pitch 3 times a week to be sharp.

I could even see Konerko being traded.

KW needs to think like Jim Hendry. Take your two worst players, Vizcaino and Dye, and see if we cant get a quality bat. We need a workhorse/rbi type badly, a Carlos Lee clone would fit well with this team.

maurice
06-03-2005, 01:11 PM
I'm sure KW will try to make a big trade. Teams will want McCarthy and Anderson, but I don't think KW wants to move them. OTOH, he traded Reed and Olivo, so you never know.

As much as I like Gio, he's outstanding trade bait and is much, much further from the bigs than Anderson and McCarthy.

Flight #24
06-03-2005, 01:21 PM
I'm sure KW will try to make a big trade. Teams will want McCarthy and Anderson, but I don't think KW wants to move them. OTOH, he traded Reed and Olivo, so you never know.

As much as I like Gio, he's outstanding trade bait and is much, much further from the bigs than Anderson and McCarthy.

He traded Reed because he had Anderson & Sweeney right behind him. He traded Olivo because....well.....see the thread on Miggy's recent AAA demotion.

I don't see Anderson/McCarthy going anywhere because there's not the immediate depth behind them. Gio & Sweeney might be fair game for a big name tho.

veeter
06-03-2005, 01:22 PM
I'm sure KW will try to make a big trade. Teams will want McCarthy and Anderson, but I don't think KW wants to move them. OTOH, he traded Reed and Olivo, so you never know.

As much as I like Gio, he's outstanding trade bait and is much, much further from the bigs than Anderson and McCarthy. I've seen the kid throw, granted on video, and I think he's closer to the bigs than you think.

Frater Perdurabo
06-03-2005, 01:23 PM
KW needs to think like Jim Hendry. Take your two worst players, Vizcaino and Dye, and see if we cant get a quality bat. We need a workhorse/rbi type badly, a Carlos Lee clone would fit well with this team.

How about a Todd Helton clone?
:wink:

HawkISox
06-03-2005, 01:24 PM
I just dont see the point in having two DH's. One has to go. Its unrealistic to put Carl in the outfield for long. I guess they want to see what Frank has, but its taking a roster spot to do so.

The team needs more offense, period.

Small-ball is all good and well....But how many times against the angels were the bases loaded or two men on and the Sox could only get one or no runs across. Crede's double play pop-up bunt was the worst.

ChiSoxBobette
06-03-2005, 01:24 PM
[QUOTE=HawkISox]I dont know why, but I have a gut feeling Williams is going to make a large trade at some point...possibly for a quality left handed bat with power.

I think someone established might be traded...Don't know why...Just a gut feeling.

I think Vizcaino should be part of any trade. I think he is a quality reliever who the Sox just don't have enough work for, and I think he's a guy who needs to pitch 3 times a week to be sharp.

I could even see Konerko being traded.[/QUOTE

I would'nt doubt that KW may make a trade maybe something big but I would suspect one of the relievers, maybe one of the Cubans(I think the White Sox have a lot of confidence in B-Mac)and a prospect, but I don't see Pauly going anywhere.

LVSoxFan
06-03-2005, 01:41 PM
I ran the idea of a Chavez trade past my baseball-stat-fanatic friend and he said that Chavez is hitting like dookie right now.

So I'm unclear what we'd be gaining with him, seeing that Crede's defense is certainly not in question.

SoxxoS
06-03-2005, 01:48 PM
:KW

Trading is like my heroin. Do you think I am not going to make at least one in the next 8 weeks? I didn't think so.

Mickster
06-03-2005, 01:54 PM
I ran the idea of a Chavez trade past my baseball-stat-fanatic friend and he said that Chavez is hitting like dookie right now.

You need a baseball-stat-fanatic friend to tell you that Chavez is hitting like crap??? :?:

na_na_na_na
06-03-2005, 01:54 PM
I agree that Crede is solid in the field but Chavez is a gold glover. That being said he is in the first or second year of a big money six year deal so I don't want to see him here.

mweflen
06-03-2005, 02:02 PM
Chavez is hitting like crap, sure, but so are guys like Konerko, Uribe, Crede, and Everett.

The difference between Chavez and those 4?

Averages of .280/30HR/97RBI over his past 5 years. At age 27.

OOO EEE OOO... Chaaaaa-Vez. I would absolutely sacrifice Crede and BMac for him. In a heartbeat. At 8.5 mil. He could put us over the top.

----------
Career seasonal averages (espn's projections of actual stats pro-rated over 162 games):

Chavez .273/30/100
Crede .253/22/80

Is there any doubt that this is an upgrade?

For giggles:
Konerko .276/29/100
Everett .276/23/93
Uribe .264/17/76

ShoelessJoeS
06-03-2005, 02:04 PM
How about a Todd Helton clone?
:wink:
a much cheaper clone i hope

Madvora
06-03-2005, 02:13 PM
As posted above, ESPN radio is reporting on their updates that Billy Beane has said he has no plans to shop Eric Chavez. They also added that Chavez says he doesn't want to play for any East coast teams or anything close to the East coast and Chicago is considered one of those.

Anyway, supposedly Preston Wilson has been mentioned with connections to the Sox. I posted that in "What's the Score" earlier today.
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=51412

harwar
06-03-2005, 02:15 PM
Helton is mired in a season-long slump like hes' never had before.
I watch the rockies often enough to watch him suffer through one miserable at-bat after another.
Kind of like Konerko.

infohawk
06-03-2005, 02:17 PM
How about a Todd Helton clone?
:wink:

It's funny you mention Helton because just this morning I was "dreaming" and wondering what the Sox would be like if they had both Chavez and Helton. I realize there are millions of reasons this would never happen, but, it's nice to dream.:D:

fquaye149
06-03-2005, 02:22 PM
There's nothing unrealistic about Konerko possibly being traded.

he has almost no market value right now. even the paulie lovers can agree with me on that ( i would think)

fquaye149
06-03-2005, 02:25 PM
KW needs to think like Jim Hendry. Take your two worst players, Vizcaino and Dye, and see if we cant get a quality bat. We need a workhorse/rbi type badly, a Carlos Lee clone would fit well with this team.

Oh man. Not only do you have to get over the two trades Hendry's made in his life, but there come Carlos, back into your memories...

Randar68
06-03-2005, 02:31 PM
Helton is mired in a season-long slump like hes' never had before.
I watch the rockies often enough to watch him suffer through one miserable at-bat after another.
Kind of like Konerko.

You should watch more of the games then, because less than 2 weeks ago (after his May 22 game), Helton was hitting .301 with a .438 OBP and .941 OPS.

He only has 4 hits since then, but I'll take a guy who slumps for 2 weeks at a crack over a guy who slumps 2-3 months at a crack anyday.

ShoelessJoeS
06-03-2005, 02:37 PM
You should watch more of the games then, because less than 2 weeks ago (after his May 22 game), Helton was hitting .301 with a .438 OBP and .941 OPS.

He only has 4 hits since then, but I'll take a guy who slumps for 2 weeks at a crack over a guy who slumps 2-3 months at a crack anyday.
but double the price...:(:

DumpJerry
06-03-2005, 02:47 PM
Paulie presents and interesting dilemna. He is in his contract year and there is no guarantee that he will sign after this season no matter when during the month of October the season ends. Yes, he says he likes it here, but remember a certain right fielder of ours last year said in a television ad for Chevy that he loves Chicago and wants to be here foreever. Detroit is not Chicago.

The other side of the Trade-Paulie coin is his current performance. It's not as good as it should be. I think we all agree on that. Now, Paulie's history of when he stinks like a rotten onion is that the stench lasts only 1/2 a season, not the whole year. This means we should be in store for a great second half from Paulie. But then, nothing is guaranteed.

I say we keep him, he'll come around and after we win the WS this year, he'll want to sign on for more rings.

ShoelessJoeS
06-03-2005, 02:54 PM
Paulie presents and interesting dilemna. He is in his contract year and there is no guarantee that he will sign after this season no matter when during the month of October the season ends. Yes, he says he likes it here, but remember a certain right fielder of ours last year said in a television ad for Chevy that he loves Chicago and wants to be here foreever. Detroit is not Chicago.
remember it wasnt maggs fault, ozzie ran him out!

rmusacch
06-03-2005, 02:57 PM
KW needs to think like Jim Hendry. Take your two worst players, Vizcaino and Dye, and see if we cant get a quality bat. We need a workhorse/rbi type badly, a Carlos Lee clone would fit well with this team.

Why would anyone give us anything decent for our two worst players? Should that have been in teal?

DumpJerry
06-03-2005, 03:04 PM
remember it wasnt maggs fault, ozzie ran him out!
Oh yeah, along with the lies KW spread about him..............
In hindsight, it's a darn good thing we did not sign him. His $$$ would have prevented Iguchi and others from wearing the Silver and Black and his, ahem, hernia would have kept him completely unproductive.

soxfan43
06-03-2005, 03:07 PM
Sounds like the feeling is sort of mixed on the trade possiblities. would you guys rather get another reliable arm in the pen or a quality bat?

mweflen
06-03-2005, 03:13 PM
Quality bat, hands down.

We've got reliable arms in the pen. Ozzie just prefers to use guys like Walker and Vizcaino.

WhiteSoxFan84
06-03-2005, 03:15 PM
Chavez is hitting like crap, sure, but so are guys like Konerko, Uribe, Crede, and Everett.

The difference between Chavez and those 4?

Averages of .280/30HR/97RBI over his past 5 years. At age 27.

OOO EEE OOO... Chaaaaa-Vez. I would absolutely sacrifice Crede and BMac for him. In a heartbeat. At 8.5 mil. He could put us over the top.

----------
Career seasonal averages (espn's projections of actual stats pro-rated over 162 games):

Chavez .273/30/100
Crede .253/22/80

Is there any doubt that this is an upgrade?

For giggles:
Konerko .276/29/100
Everett .276/23/93
Uribe .264/17/76

you're nuts. whacko. out of control. insane. not thinking. all that and a bag of m&m's full of peanuts.

why?? why??? whyyy??? someone said chavez is a gold glover, so you want chavez for his defense? isnt that ALL crede is known for?

do any of you know chavez's contract situation? he is owed $55 million over the next 5 years. this would handicap us. crede makes chump change ($400k) and mccarthy is still working under his minor league contract. technically, you'd be adding $10.5 mill in salary per year. why do it for eric chavez?

now IF you're going out to make a deal and IF you think you can move mccarthy (i dont know why we'd want to deal our first real stud pitching prospect since mark buehrle), why not go after adam dunn and bring the left-handed power machine to the southside? he'd be GREAT with the white sox. look at what jose valentin (left-handed power man) did with the white sox. now think about jose with a better batting average. he's only making $4.6 million this year. his batting average maybe crap right now (.235) but his OBP (.404) shows how intimidating he can be. oh yeah, and the guy is only 25 years old. this guy can hit over .260 with an OBP around .390 and smash at least 40 HRs a year.

what would it take to get him? well, since the reds are somewhat rebuilding and looking for young talent, why don't we also take joe randa ($2.15 mill) off their hands and give them joe crede, brandon mccarthy, and brian anderson (ahhh i dont wanna do that...).

now, let me say this again, IF you're going to make a huge deal, this is the deal i'd like to see happen.

if the white sox want a 3B, i wouldnt mind seeing david bell come to the white sox. this guy can hit pretty well. last year he was very good (.291, 18 HR, 77 RBI, 33 2B, .363 OBP). He is 32 and is owed $4.7 mill this year. but the way kenny's been making deals lately, he'd give the phillies joe crede and another minor leaguer and the phillies would pay off the rest of his contract. his defense is a bit shaky though (24 errors last year).

SoxSpeed22
06-03-2005, 03:17 PM
Yes it will as long as we are contending. I don't know for who but it will.
I would have to guess a bullpen arm or a power hitter.

harwar
06-03-2005, 03:20 PM
You should watch more of the games then, because less than 2 weeks ago (after his May 22 game), Helton was hitting .301 with a .438 OBP and .941 OPS.

He only has 4 hits since then, but I'll take a guy who slumps for 2 weeks at a crack over a guy who slumps 2-3 months at a crack anyday.

Quoting form the Rocky Mountain News " Heltons' prolonged slump has taken his average to 282 at Coors field entering the game and 237 on the road.".
Before last night 2 rbi single he was 4-58(.069) and 9-48(.188) with runners in scoring position.
"He was not ready to proclaim his batting problems over but free-falling longer than he had since joining the Rockies in 97"...
He states publically that he unsure how to handle this slump because it hasn't happened to him before.Not like this anyway.
I mean i like the guy.
I used to live in Glenwood Springs,CO. and used to make the long drive from the western slope to Denver to visit Coors field.

mweflen
06-03-2005, 03:22 PM
now IF you're going out to make a deal and IF you think you can move mccarthy (i dont know why we'd want to deal our first real stud pitching prospect since mark buehrle), why not go after adam dunn and bring the left-handed power machine to the southside? he'd be GREAT with the white sox. look at what jose valentin (left-handed power man) did with the white sox. now think about jose with a better batting average. he's only making $4.6 million this year. his batting average maybe crap right now (.235) but his OBP (.404) shows how intimidating he can be. oh yeah, and the guy is only 25 years old. this guy can hit over .260 with an OBP around .390 and smash at least 40 HRs a year.



I'm down with Dunn. I think we need a quality bat, pure and simple. If it's Dunn, fine. You are quite correct that he is the more economical of the two.

But Chavez' fat contract is precisely why he is likely to be moved, despite what Beane says publicly.

And frankly, 11 mil a year for .280/30/100 doesn't sound too bad, especially if Oakland eats a few mil of it. Just last year, we were all wringing our hands at the notion that Maggs was worth 12 mil a year for essentially the same production (and inferior defense).

Chavez can play D at least as well as Crede, and outhits him by far. I like Joe Crede, but having a steady producer in this lineup is more important to me. We have the potential to be a juggernaut with our superb and speedy 1-2 men. They just need someone who can hit behind them, - and Konerko-Dye-Everett simply does not cut it.

Hendu
06-03-2005, 03:23 PM
From what I've heard, Zito might be available and personally I'd rather see him than Chavez on the south side. His numbers have dropped off the last couple of years but he's still young and has won a Cy Young. I think a change of scenery will do him good. If we had to part with B Mac to get Zito, I wouldn't complain.

Not only would we have the best rotation in MLB, but we'd have by far the deepest and El Duque could help out in the pen if needed.

mweflen
06-03-2005, 03:24 PM
From what I've heard, Zito might be available and personally I'd rather see him than Chavez on the south side. His numbers have dropped off the last couple of years but he's still young and has won a Cy Young. I think a change of scenery will do him good. If we had to part with B Mac to get Zito, I wouldn't complain.

Not only would we have the best rotation in MLB, but we'd have by far the deepest and El Duque could help out in the pen if needed.

I second this emotion as well.

LVSoxFan
06-03-2005, 03:30 PM
You need a baseball-stat-fanatic friend to tell you that Chavez is hitting like crap??? :?:

Meaning: he would know who Chavez is.

Excuse me for not knowing the starting lineup of the freakin' Oakland A's. I'll leave that up to you and my superfan buddy. :angry:

WhiteSoxFan84
06-03-2005, 03:32 PM
I'm down with Dunn. I think we need a quality bat, pure and simple. If it's Dunn, fine. You are quite correct that he is the more economical of the two.

But Chavez' fat contract is precisely why he is likely to be moved, despite what Beane says publicly.

And frankly, 11 mil a year for .280/30/100 doesn't sound too bad, especially if Oakland eats a few mil of it. Just last year, we were all wringing our hands at the notion that Maggs was worth 12 mil a year for essentially the same production (and inferior defense).

Chavez can play D at least as well as Crede, and outhits him by far. I like Joe Crede, but having a steady producer in this lineup is more important to me. We have the potential to be a juggernaut with our superb and speedy 1-2 men. They just need someone who can hit behind them, - and Konerko-Dye-Everett simply does not cut it.

someone said this before and im going to steal their thunder. chavez is from oakland, a little too close to balco if you ask me. notice how his production has dropped off this year as stricter steroid policies were put into play. id wait and see how he does until mid-july.

heck, even jason giambi is doing better than chavez....

chavez: .225 BA, .284 OBP, .340 SLG, 5 HR, 48 K, 209 AB
giambi: .234 BA, .379 OBP, .355 SLG, 4 HR, 39 SO, 124 AB

Ol' No. 2
06-03-2005, 03:43 PM
No to Zito: An extreme flyball pitcher who does not do nearly as well away from Oakland. What's the point of adding another starter, anyway?

No to Adam Dunn: A career .248 hitter (Crede's a career .253 hitter) who's not as good defensively.

mweflen
06-03-2005, 03:46 PM
someone said this before and im going to steal their thunder. chavez is from oakland, a little too close to balco if you ask me. notice how his production has dropped off this year as stricter steroid policies were put into play. id wait and see how he does until mid-july.

heck, even jason giambi is doing better than chavez....

chavez: .225 BA, .284 OBP, .340 SLG, 5 HR, 48 K, 209 AB
giambi: .234 BA, .379 OBP, .355 SLG, 4 HR, 39 SO, 124 AB

definitely worth consideration.

MisterB
06-03-2005, 03:53 PM
Quality bat, hands down.

We've got reliable arms in the pen. Ozzie just prefers to use guys like Walker and Vizcaino.

So let's not pitch Vizcaino, Cotts or Takatsu at all and watch Hermanson, Politte and Marte's arms fall off in August. That should be entertaining.

Face it - though it would be nice to save the struggling pitchers for blowouts, the Sox' offense isn't good enough to be on the winning end of many, and the starting pitching is good enough to not be on the losing end of many.

Hendu
06-03-2005, 03:56 PM
What's the point of adding another starter, anyway?


You can never have too much starting pitching. El Duque will probably be on the DL again unless his innings are cut back. Plus the luxury of another starter would allow us to deal B Mac, also a fly-ball pitcher, whose value is through the roof at the moment, for a big-time bat (the A's would probably prefer young outfield talent for Zito, as they're stocked with young pitching prospects).

I could see Zito thriving on the south side, where he would be a #3 or 4 starter instead of the main guy. If Coop and AJ can work out Garland's and JC's problems, they can definitely get an ex-Cy Young winner back on track. That 12-6 curveball is unhittable.

maurice
06-03-2005, 04:02 PM
Please don't compare Joe Crede to Adam Dunn.

mweflen
06-03-2005, 04:04 PM
So let's not pitch Vizcaino, Cotts or Takatsu at all and watch Hermanson, Politte and Marte's arms fall off in August. That should be entertaining.

Face it - though it would be nice to save the struggling pitchers for blowouts, the Sox' offense isn't good enough to be on the winning end of many, and the starting pitching is good enough to not be on the losing end of many.

I never advocated not pitching Cotts or Takatsu.

I do advocate not pitching Vizcaino or Walker, at least until they spend time in AAA sorting their problems out.

Adkins should be brought up to replace Viz-gas-can-o. Shoot, I'd even rather see Bajenaru. Why not BMac as a long reliever? We did it with Buehrle, and he doesn't seem to show any ill effects of the "not being extended" baloney we always hear as a justification for not keeping a guy up in the pen.

TheOldRoman
06-03-2005, 04:13 PM
Helton is mired in a season-long slump like hes' never had before.
I watch the rockies often enough to watch him suffer through one miserable at-bat after another.
Kind of like Konerko.
Like I said before, Helton has been slumping to the tune of .257 this year. I would love for .257 to be Konerko's worst slump. I would GLADLY take a career .335 hitter (.296 on the road) with a career .430 OBP who is slumping with absolutely NOTHING around him in the lineup over the slump-prone Konerko who hit .239 on the road last year.

Ol' No. 2
06-03-2005, 04:14 PM
Please don't compare Joe Crede to Adam Dunn.You're right. Joe Crede strikes out a hell of a lot less.

HawkISox
06-03-2005, 04:15 PM
Vizcaino's problem is that he does not pitch enough. He has to pitch to be successful. Hermanson's arm wont fall off...he had like a 10 day break.

Vizcaino would have loved pitching for Manuel.

Ol' No. 2
06-03-2005, 04:17 PM
You can never have too much starting pitching. El Duque will probably be on the DL again unless his innings are cut back. Plus the luxury of another starter would allow us to deal B Mac, also a fly-ball pitcher, whose value is through the roof at the moment, for a big-time bat (the A's would probably prefer young outfield talent for Zito, as they're stocked with young pitching prospects).

I could see Zito thriving on the south side, where he would be a #3 or 4 starter instead of the main guy. If Coop and AJ can work out Garland's and JC's problems, they can definitely get an ex-Cy Young winner back on track. That 12-6 curveball is unhittable.Let me get this straight. You want to trade someone (who?) for Zito so you can have him in reserve in case Hernandez gets hurt and so you can trade McCarthy away?:?::?::?:

CWsox45
06-03-2005, 04:20 PM
To me the ideal guy for the White Sox would be Aubrey Huff. He would come a lot cheaper than Chavez, he's hitting under .250 right now I believe, but will eventually come around. Not to mention he can play Left field, Right, First and Third base.

We could platoon him with a struggling Crede, Dye or Konerko. Not to mention he's a free agent at the end of the year and the D-Rays will most likely take whatever they can get for him.

CWSOX45

tebman
06-03-2005, 04:21 PM
All reports per ESPN radio are saying Beane says Chavez will NOT be traded to anyone.
Well, that settles it then!

wdelaney72
06-03-2005, 04:22 PM
While I've found this thread interesting and comical, I think it's time to get a bit more realistic. As far as position players are concerned, upgrades could be used at 3B and SS. Yes, I'd love to upgrade 1B, but THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN with Paulie's current salary. I'd like Joe Randa, but he just got to Cincy this year. I don't see them dumping him already. Now, what about Morgan Ensburg from Houston? That would cost us a few prospects, I'm sure, but he's got some decent numbers.

In addition to another bat, I'd like to see another arm added to the pen. Who, I don't know, but everytime our starter leaves in the 6th or 7th, I get nervous. Needless to say, Vizcaino has been a HUGE disappointment. Marte is just continuing where he left off last season.

I'd only trade Brandon McCarthy for a veteran SP, which isn't really a need at this point. Josh Fields, Sweeney, Anderson... no problem, as long as it results in a quality veteran who can help the team NOW.

TheOldRoman
06-03-2005, 04:22 PM
To me the ideal guy for the White Sox would be Aubrey Huff. He would come a lot cheaper than Chavez, he's hitting under .250 right now I believe, but will eventually come around. Not to mention he can play Left field, Right, First and Third base.

We could platoon him with a struggling Crede, Dye or Konerko. Not to mention he's a free agent at the end of the year and the D-Rays will most likely take whatever they can get for him.

CWSOX45
Huff has another year on his contract.

Hendu
06-03-2005, 04:25 PM
Let me get this straight. You want to trade someone (who?) for Zito so you can have him in reserve in case Hernandez gets hurt and so you can trade McCarthy away?:?::?::?:

Yes. McCarthy, Sweeney, Anderson, whoever it takes. And not in reserve; Hernadez could go to the pen for long relief and only start big, clutch games. As 1984, 1994 and 2001 has taught us, the window of opportunity for winning it all is usually one year and I hope Kenny goes for it. I'd take 10 years of sucking for 1 world series. Anyone in the minors is expendable and I have the feeling that this could be our year.

Ol' No. 2
06-03-2005, 04:28 PM
Yes. McCarthy, Sweeney, Anderson, whoever it takes. And not in reserve; Hernadez could go to the pen for long relief and only start big, clutch games. As 1984, 1994 and 2001 has taught us, the window of opportunity for winning it all is usually one year and I hope Kenny goes for it. I'd take 10 years of sucking for 1 world series. Anyone in the minors is expendable and I have the feeling that this could be our year.Sorry, replacing Hernandez with Zito makes absolutely NO SENSE to me. And trading away someone to do it? :kukoo:

TheOldRoman
06-03-2005, 04:31 PM
Yes. McCarthy, Sweeney, Anderson, whoever it takes. And not in reserve; Hernadez could go to the pen for long relief and only start big, clutch games. As 1984, 1994 and 2001 has taught us, the window of opportunity for winning it all is usually one year and I hope Kenny goes for it. I'd take 10 years of sucking for 1 world series. Anyone in the minors is expendable and I have the feeling that this could be our year.
Yes, but past Cy Youngs aside, El Duque is pitching better than Zito this year, and McCarthy would likely pitch better if he started on the Sox regularly. Zito WAS good, but it appears he is livin' la vida Ricky Williams. He hasnt gone off the deep end yet, but he has chosen a life of :smokin: over good pitching. Its all mental with him. If we trade BMac, its for a bonafide star, not a ressurection project.

Hendu
06-03-2005, 04:34 PM
Sorry, replacing Hernandez with Zito makes absolutely NO SENSE to me. And trading away someone to do it? :kukoo:

Sure, because Hernandez is Mr reliable innings eater, huh? The next time he goes on the DL, are we going to expect kids to win games for us in September? Starting pitching and bullpen help are something that you can never have too much of. Teams that stay in the race and win in the postseason are usually the ones with the deepest rotations and vullpens (unless you have 2 studs like Unit and Schilling as the D-backs did in 01, but nobody has that 1-2 punch this year).

Madvora
06-03-2005, 04:38 PM
(unless you have 2 studs like Unit and Schilling as the D-backs did in 01, but nobody has that 1-2 punch this year).
What about the Red Sox with Schilling and Wells or the Cubs with Wood and Prior?

Ol' No. 2
06-03-2005, 04:38 PM
Sure, because Hernandez is Mr reliable innings eater, huh? The next time he goes on the DL, are we going to expect kids to win games for us in September? Starting pitching and bullpen help are something that you can never have too much of. Teams that stay in the race and win in the postseason are usually the ones with the deepest rotations and vullpens (unless you have 2 studs like Unit and Schilling as the D-backs did in 01, but nobody has that 1-2 punch this year).It's customary to make trades to address weaknesses, not just to make a trade. Maybe this will give you pause:

Zito ERA
Home: 3.21
Away: 5.57

How do you think he'd fare pitching in USCF?

Hendu
06-03-2005, 04:39 PM
McCarthy would likely pitch better if he started on the Sox regularly.

That's a pretty bold statement.
Yes, El Duque is pitching better than Zito, but we need him healthy for when it counts. He can't go out there every 5 days without going through dead-arm periods and we need him fresh down the stretch. I agree that Zito is not great, but I'm thinking of him as a #4 starter, not a 1. If we could get a better pitcher than him, I'd love it, but I just threw his name out b/c he's apparently available and his market value isn't extremely high right now.

Chisox003
06-03-2005, 04:44 PM
To answer the question, yes I think a major trade is coming...

But I sure as hell dont want Preston Wilson, as recent rumors suddenly have the White Sox having interest in him...

Another Starter...I guess it depends who it is and who we are giving up...

Definitely some bullpen help will be headed to the Southside at some point, hopefully in the form of Billy Wagner or Brad Lidge

As for a third baseman....JOE RANDA! :gulp:

Flight #24
06-03-2005, 04:46 PM
Sure, because Hernandez is Mr reliable innings eater, huh? The next time he goes on the DL, are we going to expect kids to win games for us in September? Starting pitching and bullpen help are something that you can never have too much of. Teams that stay in the race and win in the postseason are usually the ones with the deepest rotations and vullpens (unless you have 2 studs like Unit and Schilling as the D-backs did in 01, but nobody has that 1-2 punch this year).

The point is that your options are Zito, who's been declining over the past 2-odd years, or BMac, who's younger, cheaper, and has shown that he can get ML batters out along with whoever you were going to trade for Zito.

Yes, Barry Zito won a Cy Young award. So did Jack McDowell. More to the point, neither has pitched in the past couple of years like a Cy Young winner, and would be unlikely to do so with the Sox.

TheOldRoman
06-03-2005, 04:50 PM
That's a pretty bold statement.
Yes, El Duque is pitching better than Zito, but we need him healthy for when it counts. He can't go out there every 5 days without going through dead-arm periods and we need him fresh down the stretch. I agree that Zito is not great, but I'm thinking of him as a #4 starter, not a 1. If we could get a better pitcher than him, I'd love it, but I just threw his name out b/c he's apparently available and his market value isn't extremely high right now.
El Duque is pitching great this year; much better than Zito, as you have agreed. If you want to argue he cant pitch effectively the whole year, that's an opinion, there is no actual proof of it. The key is that our rotation is great this year, 5 deep. Even if El Duque has "dead arm", we could skip him in the rotation a time or two because we have 4 good starters. Also, we could call up BMac to pitch a few times in El Duque's spot. If, by your own admission, El Duque is better than Zito, what would we do with Zito when El Duque was healthy? You think we should trade away the best pitching prospect in baseball for a once great pitcher with a big salary who would sit in our bullpen?

WhiteSoxFan84
06-03-2005, 04:53 PM
i think its pretty safe to say that barry zito is not coming to the white sox if he goes anywhere. if he were to get traded, baltimore and boston would be his top candidates. maybe even the yankees.

fellas, we lack hitting, not pitching, unless it's a bullpen arm. shingo needs to go and maybe vizcaino does as well. but, i feel viz is just having a bad first half of the season and will slowly get better.

Flight #24
06-03-2005, 04:54 PM
I just threw his name out b/c he's apparently available and his market value isn't extremely high right now.

That's because he pretty much sucks right now. Which leads us to why we wouldn't want to give someone up for him.....

And I'm highly reluctant to trade something of value for a guy that "we can fix", especially during the season. Contreras didn't do great last year, it took ST to get him "with the program", and in any case we didn't give up anything great for him since E-Lo sucked with the '04 Sox.

Ol' No. 2
06-03-2005, 04:55 PM
El Duque is pitching great this year; much better than Zito, as you have agreed. If you want to argue he cant pitch effectively the whole year, that's an opinion, there is no actual proof of it. The key is that our rotation is great this year, 5 deep. Even if El Duque has "dead arm", we could skip him in the rotation a time or two because we have 4 good starters. Also, we could call up BMac to pitch a few times in El Duque's spot. If, by your own admission, El Duque is better than Zito, what would we do with Zito when El Duque was healthy? You think we should trade away the best pitching prospect in baseball for a once great pitcher with a big salary who would sit in our bullpen?Hernandez just had a nice rest. He will get another during the A/S break, and if they work the rotation right, he could wind up with 2 weeks between starts. They can get him another rest in September when they get callups. If they work it right they can get 25 starts out of him and still have him reasonably fresh for the playoffs.

Hendu
06-03-2005, 05:11 PM
That's because he pretty much sucks right now. Which leads us to why we wouldn't want to give someone up for him.....

And I'm highly reluctant to trade something of value for a guy that "we can fix", especially during the season. Contreras didn't do great last year, it took ST to get him "with the program", and in any case we didn't give up anything great for him since E-Lo sucked with the '04 Sox.

Well, I wouldn't say that he sucks, but he is definitely no better than a #4 or 5 starter. He does suck compared to what he's done in the past. But we do know that he's a durable lefty who pitches a lot of innings and does have decent stuff, more of a Mark Buehrle type when he's locating. Plus he still has some upside if he can go back to form and I doubt we'd hav to give too much talent up for him. Don't get me wrong, I'm not stuck on Zito or thinking of a deal just for the sake of dealing, but pitching wins championships and as good as our pitching has been, you can never have enough of it just in case.

Of course, Zito may not even be on the block as his value is so diminished right now that Beane would get very little in return and would take a huge P.R. hit

I still wouldn't be surprised to see Kenny focus on shoring up the pitching in some way first and the offense second. Maybe it'll be more arms in the pen so El Duque doesn't have to go 7 innings every start.

infohawk
06-03-2005, 05:15 PM
As posted above, ESPN radio is reporting on their updates that Billy Beane has said he has no plans to shop Eric Chavez. They also added that Chavez says he doesn't want to play for any East coast teams or anything close to the East coast and Chicago is considered one of those.

Anyway, supposedly Preston Wilson has been mentioned with connections to the Sox. I posted that in "What's the Score" earlier today.
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=51412

I don't know if Beane is willing to trade Chavez or not, but I would expect him to posture. Doing so allows him to leverge the most for Chavez if he indeed decides to trade him. As far as Chavez's comment goes, he is in no position to veto any trade since he isn't a 10 and 5 guy. If Beane were to trade him, he wouldn't have anything to say about it.

infohawk
06-03-2005, 05:28 PM
fellas, we lack hitting, not pitching, unless it's a bullpen arm. shingo needs to go and maybe vizcaino does as well. but, i feel viz is just having a bad first half of the season and will slowly get better.

I concur. I think we need one more really solid bullpen arm, and I agree that Vizcaino is just going through a tough period. I have heard more than once that he is the kind of pitcher that needs to get into games on a regular basis to be effective.

Flight #24
06-03-2005, 05:29 PM
Well, I wouldn't say that he sucks, but he is definitely no better than a #4 or 5 starter. He does suck compared to what he's done in the past. But we do know that he's a durable lefty who pitches a lot of innings and does have decent stuff, more of a Mark Buehrle type when he's locating. Plus he still has some upside if he can go back to form and I doubt we'd hav to give too much talent up for him. Don't get me wrong, I'm not stuck on Zito or thinking of a deal just for the sake of dealing, but pitching wins championships and as good as our pitching has been, you can never have enough of it just in case.

Of course, Zito may not even be on the block as his value is so diminished right now that Beane would get very little in return and would take a huge P.R. hit

I still wouldn't be surprised to see Kenny focus on shoring up the pitching in some way first and the offense second. Maybe it'll be more arms in the pen so El Duque doesn't have to go 7 innings every start.

Road ERA the past few years:
2005: 5.47
2004: 4.77
2003: 3.50

His K/9's been falling, ERA's been rising, but his overall #s have been inflated a bit by pitching in Oakland.

beckett21
06-03-2005, 05:34 PM
Of course, Zito may not even be on the block as his value is so diminished right now that Beane would get very little in return and would take a huge P.R. hit


I don't think it even matters at this point, seeing as he traded/let Hudson, Mulder, and Tejada go, and kept Zito and Chavez.....he should stop worrying about PR and start worrying about his team.

:fobbgod:


At least Giambi didn't come back to haunt me. See, I still got it!

Hendu
06-03-2005, 05:36 PM
Road ERA the past few years:
2005: 5.47
2004: 4.77
2003: 3.50

His K/9's been falling, ERA's been rising, but his overall #s have been inflated a bit by pitching in Oakland.

Good call. I guess it's the big name and Cy Young in the back of my mind...good thing I'm not filling out an All-Star ballot right now; I'd probaly select Giambi, Nomar and Griffey. We'd be better off re-acquiring Loaiza over Zito. Seriously (not that I want to get Loaiza, but just comparing the 2 pitchers).

HawkISox
06-03-2005, 05:39 PM
Pitching isnt the problem...hitting is...specifically driving in runs...

I keep hoping Dye will wake up. Uribe is just a streaky player...No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Rowand does seem to be coming around some. We are going to need more power from him.

I really think what we lack is a power left handed bat.

Hendu
06-03-2005, 05:44 PM
Uribe is just a streaky player...No ifs, ands, or buts about it.


And there's the problem with the offense: Uribe, PK and Crede are 3 of the streakiest hitters in MLB. If we pick up a bat, I just hope that it's someone consistent. And someone who doesn't strike out too often...the K's have been hurting this team.

Edit: But I'm still not backing off my opinion that we need pitching (long reliever/starter and another left-handed specialist)

LVSoxFan
06-03-2005, 05:45 PM
Uribe was flat-out on fire 1st half of last year, then sputtered to where he is... now. :(:

maurice
06-03-2005, 06:16 PM
Joe Crede strikes out a hell of a lot less [than Adam Dunn].

Well, that settles it then. :kukoo:

I can't belive you're making me do this . . .

Category - Dunn - Crede
Age - 25 - 27
AVE - .248 - .253 (and dropping)
OBP - .384 - .302 (and dropping)
SLG - .517 - .429 (and dropping)
OPS - .901 - .731 (and dropping)
K/BB - 1.59 - 2.68
SB - 40 - 3

In sum, Joe Crede cannot carry Adam Dunn's jock. His superior defense and lower K totals do not remotely make up for the 170-point (and growing) gap in OPS.

MRKARNO
06-03-2005, 06:27 PM
No to Adam Dunn: A career .248 hitter (Crede's a career .253 hitter) who's not as good defensively.

You're being ridiculous. Dunn has a career OBP in the .380's and has a .404 OBP in spite of his .235 BA this year. He hit 46 HRs last year and is on a similar pace this year.

Comparing Dunn to Crede based on BA is like comparing Ricky Henderson to Jay Buhner based on the number of HRs each hit,

fquaye149
06-03-2005, 07:26 PM
Well, that settles it then. :kukoo:

I can't belive you're making me do this . . .

Category - Dunn - Crede
Age - 25 - 27
AVE - .248 - .253 (and dropping)
OBP - .384 - .302 (and dropping)
SLG - .517 - .429 (and dropping)
OPS - .901 - .731 (and dropping)
K/BB - 1.59 - 2.68
SB - 40 - 3

In sum, Joe Crede cannot carry Adam Dunn's jock. His superior defense and lower K totals do not remotely make up for the 170-point (and growing) gap in OPS.

Give Frank a chance to teach Dunn a thing or two and Dunn could be an all-star. A lot of his K's are backward.

He has the beginnings of a good eye, but turn those backward k's to non k's and he'll be monster.

Tekk
06-03-2005, 08:37 PM
Kenny Williams will make a trade, he's always looking for ways to improve his ballclub. The man has built an amazing team this year and as the trade deadline approaches he'll look to other ballclubs to fill some holes on the Sox. He's done this in the past and will continue to do so as long as he's the GM.

This IS the year for Chicago, the Whitesox are the best team in the American League and Kenny will do what it takes to win this year.

Personally, I'd like the Sox to go after another arm in the bullpen. With the game on the line, we need someone other than Hermanson to shut down the opposition. Hermie works the 9th, but before he gets the ball there has been some inconsistency.

seventytwo
06-03-2005, 09:20 PM
I say we package some prospects (a lot of prospects) for Wagner and Abreu.


That would go a long way toward cementing a WS appearance.

gosox41
06-03-2005, 11:35 PM
Step away from the bong.

No kidding. KW loves PK. I can see him paying PK $10 mill per year for a 1/2 player.



Bob

gosox41
06-03-2005, 11:36 PM
Kenny Williams will make a trade, he's always looking for ways to improve his ballclub. The man has built an amazing team this year and as the trade deadline approaches he'll look to other ballclubs to fill some holes on the Sox. He's done this in the past and will continue to do so as long as he's the GM.

This IS the year for Chicago, the Whitesox are the best team in the American League and Kenny will do what it takes to win this year.

Personally, I'd like the Sox to go after another arm in the bullpen. With the game on the line, we need someone other than Hermanson to shut down the opposition. Hermie works the 9th, but before he gets the ball there has been some inconsistency.


FWIW, KW was on an interview with the Score today and said McCarthy is untouchable.

Personally, I find it hard to believe and think KW is just building up leverage. But on the flip side he said the same thing about Borchard and he's still here and he's getting worse, not better.



Bob

Lip Man 1
06-03-2005, 11:42 PM
Williams' track record makes you think that he will pull off a deal or two in the next 60 days.

I'd be looking for another starter (never hurts to have experienced depth in September), another good bullpen arm, a middle infielder, a hitter with pop or a third baseman.

I can't say what would be a priority...it would all depend on what's available and what they want.

Lip

Bisco Stu
06-03-2005, 11:47 PM
Crede, Contreras, 4 minor leaguers for Chavez and Zito.

balke
06-04-2005, 12:19 AM
Crede made 3 amazing picks at 3rd base today, he was a stud. I'm comfortable with him right now. Dye might be hitting up, or he just fed on bad pitching. I've noticed Dye hasn't really errored lately, and his avg. is a lot closer to .240 now.

I think this might be the one year Kenny doesn't make a "big" trade.

Ol' No. 2
06-04-2005, 12:58 AM
Well, that settles it then. :kukoo:

I can't belive you're making me do this . . .

Category - Dunn - Crede
Age - 25 - 27
AVE - .248 - .253 (and dropping)
OBP - .384 - .302 (and dropping)
SLG - .517 - .429 (and dropping)
OPS - .901 - .731 (and dropping)
K/BB - 1.59 - 2.68
SB - 40 - 3

In sum, Joe Crede cannot carry Adam Dunn's jock. His superior defense and lower K totals do not remotely make up for the 170-point (and growing) gap in OPS.Dunn has never in his life hit higher than .266 (last year). He's hitting .235 so far this year. I guess that means his average is dropping, too. True, Dunn has better power numbers, but 195 SO is downright ridiculous. Players can make productive outs, but strikeouts are NEVER productive. And we'll just have to disagree on the relative importance of defense.

At the absolute best, Dunn is a MARGINAL improvement over Crede, and I wouldn't even call it that. If a .225 BA is the problem, a .235 BA is NOT a solution.

tstrike2000
06-04-2005, 01:04 AM
Crede made 3 amazing picks at 3rd base today, he was a stud. I'm comfortable with him right now. Dye might be hitting up, or he just fed on bad pitching. I've noticed Dye hasn't really errored lately, and his avg. is a lot closer to .240 now.

I think this might be the one year Kenny doesn't make a "big" trade.

Unfortunately Crede's been an almost automatic out going 6-for-61 over the last 18 games.

Hendu
06-04-2005, 02:03 AM
FWIW, KW was on an interview with the Score today and said McCarthy is untouchable.

Personally, I find it hard to believe and think KW is just building up leverage. But on the flip side he said the same thing about Borchard and he's still here and he's getting worse, not better.



Bob

Right. I also find it hard to believe that McCarthy is untouchable. When the franchise hasn't won the series since 1917, there is no such thing as untouchable.
Kenny's going to do what he has to do.

FarWestChicago
06-04-2005, 03:37 AM
KW needs to think like Jim Hendry. Take your two worst players, Vizcaino and Dye, and see if we cant get a quality bat. We need a workhorse/rbi type badly, a Carlos Lee clone would fit well with this team.That's it. Tin Foil Hat Hendry Worship. Off to a craphole. No need to read the rest of the thread. And you need new tin foil if you think Dye is our worst player. :kukoo:

Paranoid statements are one thing. Completely stupid ones are another. :rolleyes:

gosox41
06-04-2005, 09:44 AM
That's it. Tin Foil Hat Hendry Worship. Off to a craphole. No need to read the rest of the thread. And you need new tin foil if you think Dye is our worst player. :kukoo:

Paranoid statements are one thing. Completely stupid ones are another. :rolleyes:


FWC, you're on a roll lately. :D: :D:

It makes for entertaining reading.



Bob

Flight #24
06-04-2005, 09:57 AM
Dunn has never in his life hit higher than .266 (last year). He's hitting .235 so far this year. I guess that means his average is dropping, too. True, Dunn has better power numbers, but 195 SO is downright ridiculous. Players can make productive outs, but strikeouts are NEVER productive. And we'll just have to disagree on the relative importance of defense.

At the absolute best, Dunn is a MARGINAL improvement over Crede, and I wouldn't even call it that. If a .225 BA is the problem, a .235 BA is NOT a solution.

Depends on the alternative....

:walnuts

Why you looking at me?

dcb33
06-04-2005, 10:59 AM
It's funny you mention Helton because just this morning I was "dreaming" and wondering what the Sox would be like if they had both Chavez and Helton. I realize there are millions of reasons this would never happen, but, it's nice to dream.:D:

:reinsy
"I can think of about 180 million reasons why that won't happen. It's gonna be a cold day in hell before I take on their fat contracts."

Jurr
06-04-2005, 12:15 PM
That's it. Tin Foil Hat Hendry Worship. Off to a craphole. No need to read the rest of the thread. And you need new tin foil if you think Dye is our worst player. :kukoo:

Paranoid statements are one thing. Completely stupid ones are another. :rolleyes:
Damn, that's funny!!!!! Tin Foil Hats???????

Optipessimism
06-04-2005, 07:38 PM
I don't think we should even be talking about upgrading at SP unless we can actually upgrade. To me, Zito is no upgrade over McCarthy right now and certainly not pitching like an upgrade over El Duque. If KW is going to make a trade and is going to consider giving up a young pitcher with a great upside, we have to get a pitcher who will help us now. That said, the only one that really comes to mind as being a tremendous upgrade over El Duque but would still fit with the team would be Livan Hernandez. The guy is 30 years old, has postseason experience, and is a workhorse (200 IP or more since 1998 and has averaged nearly 7IP per game his entire career). Yes the Nats are contending and won't be looking to dump players, but I could see McCarthy thriving in the offensively weaker NL. I wonder if they would consider something like El Duque+McCarthy+Vizcaino for Livan+Cordero?

eastchicagosoxfan
06-04-2005, 07:57 PM
With the Giants tanking right now, could Edgardo Alfonso be available? He's hitting .326, and he's signed through next year. He makes 7 million a year. I expected more from Crede, and he's been a disappointment.