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Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2005, 08:52 AM
According to Newsday (http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-sprocket0602,0,2013295.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines), Roger Clemens might accept a mid-season trade to the Texas Rangers.

The righthander, 3-3 with a sterling 1.30 ERA for the last-place Astros, has privately expressed admiration for the Rangers' powerful lineup, speculating that his record would be far better with the support of Texas' offense.

Then, of course, there is the issue of proximity. The drive from Clemens' Houston-area home to the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex takes about four hours.

Clemens' oldest son, Koby, has signed a baseball scholarship with Texas, in Austin, and will begin school in September.

Rangers owner Tom Hicks seems more likely than the Yankees to grant Clemens the liberal schedule he has with the Astros. He is not required to attend games he's not pitching. If Hicks agreed to that structure, Clemens could virtually commute to Arlington from Houston.

If that happened, watch out. Combine that offense with starting pitchers Clemens and Kenny Rogers (the rest of their starters have been strong this year, as well), and closer Francisco Cordero, and the Rangers would have to be favorites for the AL West and strong contenders for the pennant.

:(:

thepaulbowski
06-02-2005, 10:21 AM
According to Newsday (http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-sprocket0602,0,2013295.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines), Roger Clemens might accept a mid-season trade to the Texas Rangers.



If that happened, watch out. Combine that offense with starting pitchers Clemens and Kenny Rogers (the rest of their starters have been strong this year, as well), and closer Francisco Cordero, and the Rangers would have to be favorites for the AL West and strong contenders for the pennant.

:(:

And the Rangers have the young talent to dangle as trade bait to get him or another starting pitcher.

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2005, 10:26 AM
And the Rangers have the young talent to dangle as trade bait to get him or another starting pitcher.

Yep. :(:

Hangar18
06-02-2005, 10:26 AM
Despite what Kenny Williams thinks, GOOD PITCHING + GOOD HITTING = PLAYOFF Baseball. If the Rangers and that offense can lock up Clemens,
theres your AL Representative in the WS.

RKMeibalane
06-02-2005, 10:28 AM
:KW

"Clemens can't help Texas. He's not a grinder."

Hangar18
06-02-2005, 10:29 AM
If that happened, watch out. Combine that offense with starting pitchers Clemens and Kenny Rogers (the rest of their starters have been strong this year, as well), and closer Francisco Cordero, and the Rangers would have to be favorites for the AL West and strong contenders for the pennant.


Remember when Ron Schueler thought Clemens was washed up? Remember when Kenny Rogers was availble 2 yrs in a row and we passed in favor of the much cheaper Danny Wright and Jason Grilli ?

Spicoli
06-02-2005, 10:33 AM
With Jeff Bagwell's career all but finished, the Rangers have Adrian Gonzalez, who is ready for the majors (but is blocked by Teixiera) that I bet will be part of the deal if it is made.

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2005, 10:35 AM
Despite what Kenny Williams thinks, GOOD PITCHING + GOOD HITTING = PLAYOFF Baseball. If the Rangers and that offense can lock up Clemens,
theres your AL Representative in the WS.

The Rangers also are pretty good with the glove....

Who wouldn't like their entire infield on their team? For that matter, their OF is pretty good as well - Mench, Nix, Hidalgo. Delucci, the DH, leads the AL in OBP.

:o:

I agree with Hangar's formula, though. However, the good news is that the Sox are strong in the part of that formula that's harder to get - starting pitching. So, if the Sox were to get a great bat for the middle of the order to go along with Frank (Helton?), they too would have to be considered as favorties for the AL pennant. I would have to think Helton or another bopper would be easier to get than an ace starting pitcher like Clemens, particularly since Clemens virtually can dictate when and where he can be traded.

The other aspect is that the other Rangers' starters are unproven and/or young. Ryan Drese and Chris Young are impressive but have no postseason experience. Despite his strong start so far, Chan Ho Park isn't exactly ace material, either.

Even if the Rangers got Clemens, I still like the Sox rotation more than the Rangers.

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2005, 10:36 AM
Remember when Ron Schueler thought Clemens was washed up? Remember when Kenny Rogers was availble 2 yrs in a row and we passed in favor of the much cheaper Danny Wright and Jason Grilli ?

Unfortunately, yes. :angry:

DumpJerry
06-02-2005, 10:45 AM
So, if the Sox were to get a great bat for the middle of the order to go along with Frank (Helton?), they too would have to be considered as favorties for the AL pennant. I would have to think Helton or another bopper would be easier to get than
Here's the good news: The All Star break is coming up. When Paulie stinks it up, it is usually for half a season.

NonetheLoaiza
06-02-2005, 11:18 AM
Now maybe I don't know all the details of the special schedule Clemens has with the Astros, but if I was on that team, and saw Clemens ONLY when he was pitching, I might be a little upset. Maybe there are details regarding his family that I don't know about, so I guess I can't speak much to it. Although, if you have done what Roger Clemens has done, I guess you deserve that special treatment.

jdm2662
06-02-2005, 11:35 AM
Now maybe I don't know all the details of the special schedule Clemens has with the Astros, but if I was on that team, and saw Clemens ONLY when he was pitching, I might be a little upset. Maybe there are details regarding his family that I don't know about, so I guess I can't speak much to it. Although, if you have done what Roger Clemens has done, I guess you deserve that special treatment.

If he continues to pitch like he has all year, I think teams would settle for it.
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Dice
06-02-2005, 01:54 PM
As a Sox fan this would be something to look out for. Because in a 5-game series we would seriously be in trouble if we faced them. With their pitching staff play above their heads this year and then adding The Rocket to their rotation makes them dangerous.


Now I still like out staff against any other staff in baseball. I'd still take our staff over the Rangers even with Rocket in the rotation. BUT when you start comparing the offenses of the 2 teams it's no contest. The Rangers have too much firepower on offense.

Now I would say we would loose in a 5 or 7 game series BUT we'd be in trouble.

Fenway
06-02-2005, 02:12 PM
That is where his hero Nolan ended his career

his wife grew up in the Dallas area

Hicks has the money since dumping A-Rod

I would not bet against it

SoxSpeed22
06-02-2005, 02:34 PM
As a Sox fan this would be something to look out for. Because in a 5-game series we would seriously be in trouble if we faced them. With their pitching staff play above their heads this year and then adding The Rocket to their rotation makes them dangerous.


Now I still like out staff against any other staff in baseball. I'd still take our staff over the Rangers even with Rocket in the rotation. BUT when you start comparing the offenses of the 2 teams it's no contest. The Rangers have too much firepower on offense.

Now I would say we would loose in a 5 or 7 game series BUT we'd be in trouble.As we found out the painful way, their offense is scary. Their bullpen is their said weakness and the Texas heat may wear the team down. But they can be a threat to everyone if this happens. A duo of Clemens and Rogers is tough to beat in a series.

bluestar
06-02-2005, 02:54 PM
The Rangers are so good offensively that their pitching doesn't have to be as good, just good enough. With that said, look at Kenny Roger's record during the first half and second half for the past few years; his ERA jumps way up in the second half of the season every year. I think they would need more than Clemens and Rogers to be serious WS contenders.

Malgar 12
06-02-2005, 02:56 PM
Despite what Kenny Williams thinks, GOOD PITCHING + GOOD HITTING = PLAYOFF Baseball. If the Rangers and that offense can lock up Clemens,
theres your AL Representative in the WS.

Are you ever happy?

ChiSoxRowand
06-02-2005, 03:44 PM
I hope Clemens stays in Houston, but I would rather have him go to Texas than the Yankees. A 1-2 punch of Johnson-Clemens would be sick.

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 04:05 PM
The Rangers are so good offensively that their pitching doesn't have to be as good, just good enough. With that said, look at Kenny Roger's record during the first half and second half for the past few years; his ERA jumps way up in the second half of the season every year. I think they would need more than Clemens and Rogers to be serious WS contenders.Agreed. Rogers and Young have been their only consistently good starters, and it's a cinch Rogers isn't going to be able to maintain it. Park has been mediocre and Drese and Astacio have sucked big time. For half a season Clemens will cost them $12M. They'd be better off with two guys costing $6M each.

wdelaney72
06-02-2005, 04:11 PM
Agreed. Rogers and Young have been their only consistently good starters, and it's a cinch Rogers isn't going to be able to maintain it. Park has been mediocre and Drese and Astacio have sucked big time. For half a season Clemens will cost them $12M. They'd be better off with two guys costing $6M each.

But you have to thnk of the national draw that would go along with this. This move makes a lot of sense for all parties involved... and it scares the crap out of me.

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 04:22 PM
But you have to thnk of the national draw that would go along with this. This move makes a lot of sense for all parties involved... and it scares the crap out of me.National draw doesn't win ballgames. No matter how good Roger Clemens is, he is still only going to pitch every fifth day. They could get TWO pretty darn good pitchers for the same amount of money they'd pay for Roger Clemens. And given the thin starting pitching they have, I think they'd be better off.

Foulke You
06-02-2005, 08:34 PM
Despite what Kenny Williams thinks, GOOD PITCHING + GOOD HITTING = PLAYOFF Baseball. If the Rangers and that offense can lock up Clemens,
theres your AL Representative in the WS.
I'd relax a bit Hangar, let's wait and see what happens with the trades. Clemens could end up in Arlington and yeah, that would be a concern for the AL, however, I'm sure Kenny Williams is not going to sit idly by and not make a move. He has made a major mid season move just about every year since becoming GM of the Sox. He likes to make a splash (Everett/Alomar in '03, Freddy Garcia in '04) and I don't expect that pattern to change. The White Sox could very well land a top flite reliever and 3rd baseman (Chavez, Randa, etc) and then people in Boston, New York, Baltimore, and Texas will be saying "damn, those White Sox are going to be tough to beat!" :cool:

wdelaney72
06-03-2005, 09:27 AM
National draw doesn't win ballgames. No matter how good Roger Clemens is, he is still only going to pitch every fifth day. They could get TWO pretty darn good pitchers for the same amount of money they'd pay for Roger Clemens. And given the thin starting pitching they have, I think they'd be better off.

I agree with you but you have to think of this in terms of a business decision for the Rangers, which isn't necessarilty about wins. They could do nothing and still win the division. Adding Clemens increases attendance, revenue, and exposure... possibly more than 2 good starting pitchers.

Frater Perdurabo
06-03-2005, 10:01 AM
I agree with you but you have to think of this in terms of a business decision for the Rangers, which isn't necessarilty about wins. They could do nothing and still win the division. Adding Clemens increases attendance, revenue, and exposure... possibly more than 2 good starting pitchers.

If it happened (shudder), Clemens still could keep most of his family obligations in Houston and commute to Arlington for games. Tom Hicks could charter him a private jet to shuttle him back and forth between DFW and Houston, and then get him from the airport to the stadium via helicopter. (Or he could go direct on one of those high-speed jet-powered choppers) There is a helipad just across the street from Ameriquest field, literally less than 100 yards from the Rangers' first base side clubhouse.
:(:

Spicoli
06-03-2005, 10:58 AM
Latest on Clemens:



Astros owner Drayton McLane denied a rumor that Roger Clemens was going to be traded to the Texas Rangers.
He did say however that there has been talk about Clemens with Boston and the Yankees. If you own Clemens in a NL only league, it's time to move him. Jun. 3 - 4:15 am et
Source: Houston Chronicle (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3209456)

MIgrenade
06-03-2005, 07:48 PM
Despite what Kenny Williams thinks, GOOD PITCHING + GOOD HITTING = PLAYOFF Baseball. If the Rangers and that offense can lock up Clemens,
theres your AL Representative in the WS.

Slow down. The offense could also fall apart in the playoffs because they have no experience like a certain team I saw in 2000.
Also, someone better explain the enfatuation with Randa to me because I don't get it.

Mohoney
06-04-2005, 10:42 AM
National draw doesn't win ballgames. No matter how good Roger Clemens is, he is still only going to pitch every fifth day. They could get TWO pretty darn good pitchers for the same amount of money they'd pay for Roger Clemens. And given the thin starting pitching they have, I think they'd be better off.

This is true, but I would think that the cost in terms of prospects would be higher for the two $6 million guys. Each $6 million guy would require at least one blue-chip prospect, and probably one or two lesser name, high upside guys. I think that Clemens would probably net the Astros the same package if a suitor provides financial relief and doesn't ask for cash considerations.

If you can supplement a Clemens trade with a move to bolster the bullpen with a quality veteran arm, and give up nothing more than middle-tier minor leaguers in doing so, you can pretty much take your chances with Young and Drese at the back end. With the money that he's being paid, Park is pretty much locked into a starting spot, too, so unless you can unload him (if they pull THIS off, John Hart HAS to be AL Executive of the Year), the 2nd pitcher has to take the spot of either Young or Drese. To be honest, I would just take my chances with these guys and have Clemens replace Astacio.

So instead of giving up two elite farmhands and three or four other high upside prospects, you're only giving up one elite guy, two high upside guys, and the middle and lower tier guys in the deal for the reliever.

You shell out a lot of money under this scenario, but does your savings in terms of prospects make up for it?

doublem23
06-04-2005, 12:05 PM
Despite what Kenny Williams thinks, GOOD PITCHING + GOOD HITTING = PLAYOFF Baseball. If the Rangers and that offense can lock up Clemens,
theres your AL Representative in the WS.

You're ****ing kidding right?

The Rangers? :roflmao:

gobears1987
06-04-2005, 09:03 PM
I hope Clemens stays in Houston, but I would rather have him go to Texas than the Yankees. A 1-2 punch of Johnson-Clemens would be sick.
I'm soooo scared of Randy Johnson. That 40 something year old fart can't beat the fricken Royals for God's sake!!! How will this smelly, nasty looking washup beat us if he can't beat a weak team we are 6-0 against?

Paulwny
06-09-2005, 10:25 AM
If Clemens is traded, he's a fa at the end of the year, and resigns with Houston he'll be a rent-a-player. This could become an ugly situation for mlb.
Article- Bob Dicesare- Buffalo News

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050608/1049456.asp

Flight #24
06-09-2005, 10:36 AM
If Clemens is traded, he's a fa at the end of the year, and resigns with Houston he'll be a rent-a-player. This could become an ugly situation for mlb.
Article- Bob Dicesare- Buffalo News

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050608/1049456.asp

This is no different from trading any other pending FA. There's always the chance that they may return to the org. It's just part of baseball. There's nothing ulterior going on here and no reason to be concerned about it.

Now if he were not an FA and were traded to a team for the stretch and then traded back in the offseason, that would be more "collusion"-like.

Frater Perdurabo
06-09-2005, 10:46 AM
This is no different from trading any other pending FA. There's always the chance that they may return to the org. It's just part of baseball. There's nothing ulterior going on here and no reason to be concerned about it.

Now if he were not an FA and were traded to a team for the stretch and then traded back in the offseason, that would be more "collusion"-like.

July 2005: Astros trade Clemens to contender of his choice for prospects.
December 2005: Clemens signs a one-year deal with the Astros.
July 2006: Astros trade Clemens to contender of his choice for prospects.
December 2006: Clemens signs a one-year deal with the Astros.
July 2007: Astros trade Clemens to contender of his choice for prospects.
December 2007: Clemens signs a one-year deal with the Astros.
Repeat as needed.

If Clemens and the Astros are willing to to this, more power to them! This is pure genius because it benefits the Astros (amassing prospects, increased attendance and revenues early in the year) AND benefits Clemens (gets to start each season pitching at home and if the Astros suck, he goes to pitch for a contender for three months every year).

Too bad Clemens isn't from Bridgeport.... :redneck

Paulwny
06-09-2005, 10:47 AM
This is no different from trading any other pending FA. There's always the chance that they may return to the org. It's just part of baseball. There's nothing ulterior going on here and no reason to be concerned about it.

Now if he were not an FA and were traded to a team for the stretch and then traded back in the offseason, that would be more "collusion"-like.

And if he does this, this year, next year......, single handidly rebuilding Houston
From the article.


His fondness for the Houston area suggests Clemens will finish out his career with the Astros, or at least make the team his home base from April through late July. And then, if the postseason appears an unlikely premise, he'll be traded to one of the clubs on his approved list, maybe the Yankees, maybe the Rangers. He's conceded he has an interest in what the Astros receive in return. What's fairly certain is that Houston will get a double dip, benefiting from what it receives via Clemens' departure and then by returning him to the strengthened mix. A season or two of this and the Astros can overhaul the organization, adding regulars, adding prospects, then pulling Clemens back yo-yo style.

Flight #24
06-09-2005, 10:59 AM
And if he does this, this year, next year......, single handidly rebuilding Houston
From the article.


His fondness for the Houston area suggests Clemens will finish out his career with the Astros, or at least make the team his home base from April through late July. And then, if the postseason appears an unlikely premise, he'll be traded to one of the clubs on his approved list, maybe the Yankees, maybe the Rangers. He's conceded he has an interest in what the Astros receive in return. What's fairly certain is that Houston will get a double dip, benefiting from what it receives via Clemens' departure and then by returning him to the strengthened mix. A season or two of this and the Astros can overhaul the organization, adding regulars, adding prospects, then pulling Clemens back yo-yo style.

I'm not arguing the outcome, but it's 100% legitimate and should not be a concern for anyone other than the teams involved. The team trading for Clemens knows that they'll almost certainly not resign him, which will factor into the prospects they send over.

Again, this is virtually no different from say Freddy Garcia returning to Seattle had he not resigned with the Sox. Nothing wrong with it.

Paulwny
06-09-2005, 11:11 AM
I'm not arguing the outcome, but it's 100% legitimate and should not be a concern for anyone other than the teams involved. The team trading for Clemens knows that they'll almost certainly not resign him, which will factor into the prospects they send over.

Again, this is virtually no different from say Freddy Garcia returning to Seattle had he not resigned with the Sox. Nothing wrong with it.

A team, feeling Clemens takes them to the WS, may give up better prospects.
One difference between Garcia and other fa's, they'd be looking for long term contracts, Clemens would enter one year deals, guaranteeing himself a shot with a play-off team each year while helping to rebuild Houston if they don't appear to be a play-off contnder.
This could continue each and every year till Clemens finally decides to hang them up.

Flight #24
06-09-2005, 11:33 AM
A team, feeling Clemens takes them to the WS, may give up better prospects.
One difference between Garcia and other fa's, they'd be looking for long term contracts, Clemens would enter one year deals, guaranteeing himself a shot with a play-off team each year while helping to rebuild Houston if they don't appear to be a play-off contnder.
This could continue each and every year till Clemens finally decides to hang them up.

They'll still give up worse prospects than they would if theythought Rockets could take them to a WS AND possibly resign, which is the appropriate comparison.

And in doing what you say, Clemens accepts the risk that if he gets hurt, he's got no long-term deal. Or he accepts less money from the Astros to return than he would form anyone else. It's all above board.

That's the way things work. Everyone knows the score, there's no issue here and certainly no reason for baseball to even consider stepping in.

spiffie
06-09-2005, 11:42 AM
One other thing, as mentioned in Buster Olney's blog today, is that Houston just drafted Roger's son as a catcher. If he hangs around another season or two, and his kid shows some skills, he might be compelled to try and create the first-ever father-son battery combo.

balke
06-09-2005, 12:10 PM
He seemingly only accepted to come to Houston and play to help them win, and then they broke apart. I'm sure he still wants to be close to home, and to win... so the Rangers only make sense. I'd be upset with Houston if I were him. Might as well go get a championship so long as he's out there pitching anyhow.