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Chicago83
06-01-2005, 04:38 PM
Don't get me wrong I like Konerko, but batting in the third or fourth position he is killing us. He's had 59 AB with runners in position and is hitting .220. If we replaced him with somebody hitting above .250 imagine how many more runs we would have scored. Konerko needs to be dropped down in the lineup to fifth or six and just hit homers. We need to get somebody in the cleanup spot who can do the job. If thomas gets healthy then I would like to see 3-4 Thomas/Rowand. Or better yet trade for a bat who can fit in that 3 spot. Right now we are wasting the 1-2 punch of Pods and Iguchi with Konerko's lack of average. I am not saying we should get rid of Paulie, you can't argue with the 35+ HR's he will hit, we just need to put him back in the lineup.

Randar68
06-01-2005, 04:41 PM
Don't get me wrong I like Konerko, but batting in the third or fourth position he is killing us. He's had 59 AB with runners in position and is hitting .220. If we replaced him with somebody hitting above .250 imagine how many more runs we would have scored. Konerko needs to be dropped down in the lineup to fifth or six and just hit homers. We need to get somebody in the cleanup spot who can do the job. If thomas gets healthy then I would like to see 3-4 Thomas/Rowand. Or better yet trade for a bat who can fit in that 3 spot. Right now we are wasting the 1-2 punch of Pods and Iguchi with Konerko's lack of average. I am not saying we should get rid of Paulie, you can't argue with the 35+ HR's he will hit, we just need to put him back in the lineup.

Time for this week's edition of, "Trade Pauly for Todd Helton"...

DaleJRFan
06-01-2005, 04:42 PM
Don't get me wrong I like Konerko, but batting in the third or fourth position he is killing us. He's had 59 AB with runners in position and is hitting .220. If we replaced him with somebody hitting above .250 imagine how many more runs we would have scored. Konerko needs to be dropped down in the lineup to fifth or six and just hit homers. We need to get somebody in the cleanup spot who can do the job. If thomas gets healthy then I would like to see 3-4 Thomas/Rowand. Or better yet trade for a bat who can fit in that 3 spot. Right now we are wasting the 1-2 punch of Pods and Iguchi with Konerko's lack of average. I am not saying we should get rid of Paulie, you can't argue with the 35+ HR's he will hit, we just to put him back in the lineup.

Who else bats clean up?? Konerko still leads the team in RBIs last time I checked. There really isn't anyone else to drop in the clean up spot right now. Dye?? AJ?? When the big hurt comes back for everyday play, Paulie will move down to 5th or 6th.

Pods
Gooch
Rowand
Big Frank
AJ
Paulie
Dye
Crede
Uribe

Chicago83
06-01-2005, 04:43 PM
Time for this week's edition of, "Trade Pauly for Todd Helton"...

That's not what I am saying. Keep Paulie just slide him down the lineup. Forget Helton, he's good but he does play in Coor's field and is over-paid because of it.

DaleJRFan
06-01-2005, 04:44 PM
Who else bats clean up?? Konerko still leads the team in RBIs last time I checked. There really isn't anyone else to drop in the clean up spot right now. Dye?? AJ?? When the big hurt comes back for everyday play, Paulie will move down to 5th or 6th.

Pods
Gooch
Rowand
Big Frank
AJ
Paulie
Dye
Crede
Uribe


DaleJrFan, you're stupid. This works better:

Pods
Gooch
Rowand
Big Frank
Gload (hell ya! let the guy play, Ozzie!!)
Dye
AJ
Crede
Uribe

Chicago83
06-01-2005, 04:44 PM
Who else bats clean up?? Konerko still leads the team in RBIs last time I checked. There really isn't anyone else to drop in the clean up spot right now. Dye?? AJ?? When the big hurt comes back for everyday play, Paulie will move down to 5th or 6th.

Pods
Gooch
Rowand
Big Frank
AJ
Paulie
Dye
Crede
Uribe

Yes Paulie does lead the team in RBI's. Because of Pods and Gooch he has had 59 AB with runner's in position. The point is somebody who was batting .300 would get many more RBI's in the same position, while Paulie will still get his runs in hitting homers back in the lineup.

dcb33
06-01-2005, 04:45 PM
That's not what I am saying. Keep Paulie just slide him down the lineup. Forget Helton, he's good but he does play in Coor's field and is over-paid because of it.

Helton's been struggling big time this year.


I don't understand why you want to get rid of Paulie, I mean come on, he's turned at least two 3-6-3 double plays in the last week! That's gotta be good for something, right?

DaleJRFan
06-01-2005, 04:46 PM
Helton's been struggling big time this year.


I don't understand why you want to get rid of Paulie, I mean come on, he's turned at least two 3-6-3 double plays in the last week! That's gotta be good for something, right?

We don't need no stinkin' Helton on this team. We already have a high-slugging % lefthanded first baseman who wears #17.

maurice
06-01-2005, 04:47 PM
Forget Helton, he's good but he does play in Coor's field and is over-paid because of it.

But we're trying to trade him for a fellow who plays in Coors East and is over-paid because of it.

Sounds fair to me. :gulp:

Jurr
06-01-2005, 04:49 PM
:deadhorse:

Here we go again.

PaleHoseGeorge
06-01-2005, 04:49 PM
I mean come on, he's turned at least two 3-6-3 double plays in the last week! That's gotta be good for something, right?

He had one last night and I just laughed. I was waiting for Hawk to do his usual shtick about why it's soooooo great to have a firstbasemen who can throw... as if it makes up for a .220 batting average.

:roflmao:

:hawk
"I remember Ray Oyler once tried the ol' 3-6-3. D.J., that was a sight to see... mercy."

Chicago83
06-01-2005, 04:50 PM
Paulie is getting paid much less than Helton. No doubt in my mind Helton is better, but is he as much better as he is getting paid. I think not. Paulie does hit most of his HR at home, but it's not bad to have a guy like him. Just slide him down to the 6th spot and let him swing for the fences.

RowandKicksAss07
06-01-2005, 04:51 PM
I think there is too much pressure on Paul Konerko this year to be the man this year. Last year he had Carlos Lee who helped drive in runs as well. Carl Everett has a done a nice job this year, but Lee was alot better then he is. I think once Thomas comes back and stays in the lineup, they'll have a more powerful 3-4 and Paulie can go back to being Paulie instead of some superhero which he isn't.

Jurr
06-01-2005, 04:57 PM
How many tomatoes do we have to throw at this Paul Konerko circus??

PicktoCLick72
06-01-2005, 04:58 PM
GLoad should not play in fornt of Paulie. Move Paulie down in the order but do not take him out completely. Anyone thinking GLoad can produce every day needs to lay off the bong.

Randar68
06-01-2005, 05:06 PM
We don't need no stinkin' Helton on this team. We already have a high-slugging % lefthanded first baseman who wears #17.

Gload? LOL. Every day? Put the crack pipe away.

Helton has been struggling yet still helps his team with a near .400 OBP. He has put up OPS over 1.000 each of the last 5 years and his road numbers are still in the mid .900's... Wake me up when Konehead does that for HALF a season, let alone 5 straight.

I don't know why I have to defend him compared to Paul Konerko... Unreal.

RKMeibalane
06-01-2005, 05:14 PM
These Konerko threads have become ridiculous.

gosox41
06-01-2005, 05:22 PM
These Konerko threads have become ridiculous.

So has his play.



Bob

RKMeibalane
06-01-2005, 05:31 PM
So has his play.



Bob

Everybody knows that Konerko sucks. Therefore, I don't think it needs to repeated over and over again.

Crede?NOOO!!!!!
06-01-2005, 05:43 PM
I have to say, Konerko isn't that bad.

In comparison you have to look at other first basemen around the league. If you look you can see that while Konerko isn't equal to guys like Ortiz or Pujols, he's still much better than the clowns some other teams put at first, (Giambi, Hatteberg(can't spell off top of head), Choi, Nevin etc.)

TheOldRoman
06-01-2005, 05:58 PM
Helton's been struggling big time this year.
His average and power numbers are down, but he still has a .260 average and 19 RBIs with an OBP of nearly 400. Oh, and he is a gold glover. I would love for Konerko to "struggle big time" and put up those numbers.

As for the Gload bashers... I would really hate for the Sox to play a left handed gold-glove caliber first baseman who batted .321 last year with a .311 road average everyday. That would SUCK.

Palehose13
06-01-2005, 09:13 PM
I just talked to my dad and he said something about Ozzie saying that Konerko was only going to play every other day. Now, my dad isn't well known for getting the whole story right, so has anyone else heard this or something like this?

Hagan
06-01-2005, 09:20 PM
Paulie is going to do better as the year goes on. He is taking a lot of walks also. with a 223 BA a 336 obp is pretty good. Also his ops is almost 800. Yes he needs to start hitting better, like 270 better. He is not doing as bad as everyone says he is. The man that is killing us is crede! He needs to start hitting or we need to think about getting a new third baseman near the trade deadline. I know he is a great 3rd baseman but a third baseman needs to be a good hitter also.

skobabe8
06-02-2005, 12:25 AM
Everybody knows that Konerko sucks. Therefore, I don't think it needs to repeated over and over again.

Not that it matters much, but Paulie was absolutely on fire during spring training. I dont have his numbers handy, but he was hitting for avg. AND power. Then again, so was Crazy Carl. I guess I just long for the days.....

JB98
06-02-2005, 12:48 AM
His average and power numbers are down, but he still has a .260 average and 19 RBIs with an OBP of nearly 400. Oh, and he is a gold glover. I would love for Konerko to "struggle big time" and put up those numbers.

As for the Gload bashers... I would really hate for the Sox to play a left handed gold-glove caliber first baseman who batted .321 last year with a .311 road average everyday. That would SUCK.

You would love for Konerko to "struggle big time" and have 19 RBIs? Well, Konerko IS struggling big time, and he has 13 HR and 37 RBIs.

I'd be in favor of moving Konerko down in the batting order, but the problem is we don't have anybody else.

Are we done beating this dead horse yet?

fquaye149
06-02-2005, 07:28 AM
You would love for Konerko to "struggle big time" and have 19 RBIs? Well, Konerko IS struggling big time, and he has 13 HR and 37 RBIs.

I'd be in favor of moving Konerko down in the batting order, but the problem is we don't have anybody else.

Are we done beating this dead horse yet?


dusting off that rob deer jersey? yes, it's come to that.

CubsSuckSoBad
06-02-2005, 07:36 AM
Konerko has never been one to hit for average...


Why is this such a surprise?

Stop posting Konerko blah....its the same thing over and over again...

Hes always been a supplemental player; not a leader or a person that will carry the team....

Which is why Kenny probably won't resign him this offseason...we're gonna go get someone else that plays more our style of ball...Konerko even knows himself that he is gone at the end of the season....

Konkero = :whiner:

Randar68
06-02-2005, 09:27 AM
As for the Gload bashers... I would really hate for the Sox to play a left handed gold-glove caliber first baseman who batted .321 last year with a .311 road average everyday. That would SUCK.

And you think he'd put those numbers up playing every day?

BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHA! There is a reason he floated around before landing with the Sox. There is a reason why he plays only intermittently. If you think he can come anywhere near that production playing regularly, I have some swamp land on the Cal Sag for sale...

Mohoney
06-02-2005, 09:38 AM
Anyone thinking Gload can produce every day needs to lay off the bong.

Finally, somebody said it.

JB98
06-02-2005, 12:11 PM
dusting off that rob deer jersey? yes, it's come to that.

*****. Go look up Rob Deer's career numbers, then compare them to Konerko's. Deer is a LIFETIME .220 hitter. Konerko's only had one season where he hit below .270.

Yes, Konerko is underperforming. No, he's not worth the money he's making. Yes, he should be dropped a spot or two lower in the batting order. But he's not as bad as Rob Deer.

Some criticism of Konerko is warranted, but the beating he gets on this board is ridiculous. Get some perspective and cut the hyperbole.

Flight #24
06-02-2005, 01:03 PM
Yes Paulie does lead the team in RBI's. Because of Pods and Gooch he has had 59 AB with runner's in position. The point is somebody who was batting .300 would get many more RBI's in the same position, while Paulie will still get his runs in hitting homers back in the lineup.

Backing up this point, to date, Paul Konerko was tied for 12th in MLB in ABs with RISP. But thanks to his .220 BA-RISP, he only has 26RBIs in those situations, The guys with the same or more ABs and fewer RBIs? Such core run producers as David Bell, Julio Lugo, and Edgar Renteria. The 2 comparables are Jeromy Burnitz (65ABs/25RBIs) and Eric Chavez (64ABs/20RBIs).

Which brings me back to a point made in another thread that Paul Konerko is a lot like Jeromy Burnitz...plus about $5mil in salary.

BedfordChisox
06-02-2005, 01:09 PM
Prepare to mock this post because it's only my second...

I can't for the life of me understand all the Konerko bashing. I realize that the guy isn't hitting well, and you can quote me all the stats in the world to prove it. However, the one stat that counts is this: 35-18. The best record in baseball, and one of the best starts (if not the best start) in team history. Love him or hate him, we haven't gotten to 35-18 despite having Paul batting cleanup.

It's hypothetical at best (in other words, it's meaningless...), but can anyone put together a cogent argument that we'd have a better record if Paulie wasn't part of the team? When the Paulie-bashers answer with a list of games you believe Paulie screwed up for us, make sure you acknowledge that he's won a few too. Not too many team can continue to play at a near .667 clip as long as the Sox have unless all the pieces are playing a part, and I'd venture to say that Paul has been a significant part of this early success.

Sorry to quote the Hawk, but sometimes it's not what you hit, it's when you hit. Paul's made me mad enough to swear on several occasions (for what it's worth, I find the nickname GIDPaul to be not only hilarious but unfortunately all too appropriate), but he's delivered in clutch situations too.

Also, just an observation (don't post much... but I am a longtime lurker and I do support the site) why is it that the most ardent Frank supporters seem to be the ones that hate Paul the most? Why does this topic often boil down to a Frank vs. Paul thing? Would we be 53-0 if Frank had been playing and Paul had been hurt? 40-13? Now that both will be back in the lineup, will we play at a near .667 clip over the next 50 games? The next 100 games? If not, why not?

I'm happy that we have the best record in baseball. I'm happy that Paul is our everyday 1st baseman. I'm sincerely thrilled that Frank is back and ready to make a contribution, and I'm confident he will.

If it's late August or September, the team has faded, and Paulie is still languishing around .220, I'll ride shotgun on the anti-Paul bandwagon. Until that time, I want him here and I want him to be part of what is shaping up to be the best year for the Sox in my lifetime.

Flight #24
06-02-2005, 01:13 PM
Prepare to mock this post because it's only my second...

I can't for the life of me understand all the Konerko bashing. I realize that the guy isn't hitting well, and you can quote me all the stats in the world to prove it. However, the one stat that counts is this: 35-18. The best record in baseball, and one of the best starts (if not the best start) in team history. Love him or hate him, we haven't gotten to 35-18 despite having Paul batting cleanup.



Just IMO, but I do believe that if we had a cleanup guy batting better than .220 with RISP, we'd have scored more runs and probably have more wins. The concern isn't so much that Paulie's dragging this team down, but that they're winning despite him hitting .220 with RISP. If he continues that, it will be tough for the Sox to maintain the level of play necessary to win the division.

As for Frank v. Paulie - there's no comparison, Frank's a lot better. I believe the prime concern from Frank fans is that if the FOGIDPK have their way and Paulie's resigned at 8-10mil/yr, it'll likely mean that Frank will be let go. That's just plain stupid if you ask me since you'd be letting go a)the better hitter, b)the franchise icon, and c)the one of the two that'll be in the HOF without a ticket.

fquaye149
06-02-2005, 02:24 PM
*****. Go look up Rob Deer's career numbers, then compare them to Konerko's. Deer is a LIFETIME .220 hitter. Konerko's only had one season where he hit below .270.

Yes, Konerko is underperforming. No, he's not worth the money he's making. Yes, he should be dropped a spot or two lower in the batting order. But he's not as bad as Rob Deer.

Some criticism of Konerko is warranted, but the beating he gets on this board is ridiculous. Get some perspective and cut the hyperbole.

i will give you a ****ing break. while you're right that in his career, he has not been like rob deer, in these last three years he has been GOD awful.

Starting with the second half of 2002, till now he has had one good season and 4 horrible half seasons. AWFUL half seasons. Seasons that make Rob Deer look like Tony Gwynn. Sorry. No sympathy, especially with the GIDaPaulogists who will defend him for having 19 RBIS with one of the best 1-2 punches in baseball hitting in front of him.

Paulie's season this year is pitiful, pathetic, annoying.

And you know what: even when Paulie's dealing, he's still leading the league in GIDP's. GREAT.

And you know what: at least Deer played OF.

Paulie is on my **** list right now, if you couldn't tell.

fquaye149
06-02-2005, 02:27 PM
Love him or hate him, we haven't gotten to 35-18 despite having Paul batting cleanup.


Sure we have.

We have done it despite Paulie hitting .220
Despite Dye swimming south of the Mendoza Gulf all April.
Despite having Uribe and Crede in our batting order.
Despite Shingo and Vizcaino struggling.
Despite Rowand not hitting as we thought he would.
Despite Pierzynski throwing out like 1 in every 8 runners.

But the fact is, despite Konerko's piss poor hitting, we are 35-18. Don't you dare credit Konerko for our record. Sometimes he helps us (rarely). Sometimes he hurts us (frequently). But that 35-18 record BELONGS TO THE PITCHING.

Deadguy
06-02-2005, 02:42 PM
But the fact is, despite Konerko's piss poor hitting, we are 35-18. Don't you dare credit Konerko for our record. Sometimes he helps us (rarely). Sometimes he hurts us (frequently). But that 35-18 record BELONGS TO THE PITCHING.

Absolutely spot on. The Konerko bashing stems from the fact that this doofus seems to get a free ride in this town whenever he struggles, because someone else picks up the slack.

There have only been two seasons where Konerko's production has mattered. 2003, and this season. In both years, he's been an embarassment. In 2003, he was hidden behind the shadows of Thomas and Magglio. This season, it's the pitching staff that is allowing this spaz to avoid getting the finger pointed at.

In 2003, we fell short by 4 games. We actually had a 2 game lead in September. If Koch and Konerko actually did their jobs that season, could we have made the playoffs. Konerko wasn't asked to do much, but he still fell flat on his face, and embarassed himself.

This year, we have played well, but the lead is hardly insurmountable. All these games count as much as they do in August and Spetember. We can't shake the Twins, and if the pitching staff comes, the offense needs to pick up the slack. Konerko is supposed to anchor this lineup, and he has failed! Hence, the justified criticism! Quit giving this idiot any credit for our current record.

JB98
06-02-2005, 04:07 PM
i will give you a ****ing break. while you're right that in his career, he has not been like rob deer, in these last three years he has been GOD awful.

Starting with the second half of 2002, till now he has had one good season and 4 horrible half seasons. AWFUL half seasons. Seasons that make Rob Deer look like Tony Gwynn. Sorry. No sympathy, especially with the GIDaPaulogists who will defend him for having 19 RBIS with one of the best 1-2 punches in baseball hitting in front of him.

Paulie's season this year is pitiful, pathetic, annoying.

And you know what: even when Paulie's dealing, he's still leading the league in GIDP's. GREAT.

And you know what: at least Deer played OF.

Paulie is on my **** list right now, if you couldn't tell.

More hyperbole. Konerko has 37 RBIs, not 19. Not even Joe Borchard can make Rob Deer look like Tony Gwynn. Sorry, but you're just rambling angrily at this point. Let's take a more sensible review of the facts:

Paulie had a great first half in 2002 and a poor second half. In 2003, he was terrible the first half and decent the second half. In 2004, he was streaky, but the home runs and RBIs were better than any other first baseman in the AL. So far this season, he hasn't hit up to his capabilities, but he's still far ahead of where he was in 2003. I can only find two horrible half seasons in there, not four. And this half season isn't over yet, so let's reserve judgement.

Like I said in my earlier post, we need more production from Konerko. No question about that. He has not earned his money so far this year. I am not arguing that. What I am stating is, the bashing of Konerko has gotten out of control, much like the bashing of Crede and Cotts.

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2005, 04:13 PM
Also, just an observation (don't post much... but I am a longtime lurker and I do support the site) why is it that the most ardent Frank supporters seem to be the ones that hate Paul the most? Why does this topic often boil down to a Frank vs. Paul thing?

Bedford and I ran into each other at the Saturday Sox/Rangers rainout and had a good - if loaded - conversation. :gulp:

In any case, thinking about our chat that day and the fact that both of us stuck it out in the pouring rain hoping to catch a Sox game, and then reading this post made me realize that his comment is spot-on. I think many (but not all) Sox fans are either "Frank Fans" or "Paulie Fans." Paulie's biggest supporters tend to have a lower opinion of Frank, and Frank's biggest fans tend to denigrate Paulie.

I'm happy that we have the best record in baseball. I'm happy that Paul is our everyday 1st baseman. I'm sincerely thrilled that Frank is back and ready to make a contribution, and I'm confident he will.

If it's late August or September, the team has faded, and Paulie is still languishing around .220, I'll ride shotgun on the anti-Paul bandwagon. Until that time, I want him here and I want him to be part of what is shaping up to be the best year for the Sox in my lifetime.

The bottom line is that as long as they are wearing the silver and black, we Sox fans have to hope that each and every player performs at the highest possible level.

I hope Paulie turns it around and hits .350 for the rest of the year and finishes with 50 homers. Same for Frank. Then when the Sox win it all, there will be enough payroll to keep both of them!

:supernana:

fquaye149
06-02-2005, 04:40 PM
More hyperbole. Konerko has 37 RBIs, not 19. Not even Joe Borchard can make Rob Deer look like Tony Gwynn. Sorry, but you're just rambling angrily at this point. Let's take a more sensible review of the facts:

Paulie had a great first half in 2002 and a poor second half. In 2003, he was terrible the first half and decent the second half. In 2004, he was streaky, but the home runs and RBIs were better than any other first baseman in the AL. So far this season, he hasn't hit up to his capabilities, but he's still far ahead of where he was in 2003. I can only find two horrible half seasons in there, not four. And this half season isn't over yet, so let's reserve judgement.

Like I said in my earlier post, we need more production from Konerko. No question about that. He has not earned his money so far this year. I am not arguing that. What I am stating is, the bashing of Konerko has gotten out of control, much like the bashing of Crede and Cotts.

Hyperbole may mask the truth but it doesn't change it. I'm going off the 19 someone quoted in this thread. I was too lazy to look up the actual number and I misread the quote. I apologize for that.His Rbi total is still unimpressive considering his 1-2 hitters. His second half in 2003 was decent, I suppose, but for you to act like there's still time to salvage this half season is CRAZY. It's almost impossible for him to be hitting above .240 by break. So let's split the difference and say 3 GODAWFUL half seasons out of 6. And his 3 "good" ones sure weren't gangbusters.

You're right, my bashing of Konerko has escalated to a fever pitch. It has for three reasons.

1.) he keeps getting irrationally championed on this board by his apologists (see Billy Beane)
2.) he won't keep his trap shut.

but most importantly

3.) HE IS PLAYING ****TY BALL THIS SEASON.

BedfordChisox
06-02-2005, 04:49 PM
Fquaye: "Don't you dare..." Friend, take a quaalude. Life is way too short to get this upset about a person's opinion, whether you agree with it or not. You called out roughly 1/3 of the entire roster as not doing the job, and six of them are everyday starters. I didn't make any remarks in my post disparaging our starting pitching. They are the reason we have such a great record. However, if you look at damn near every team currently with a winning record (or every team with a winning record throughout history), you could make a strong case that their pitching is a primary reason for their success. Someone a lot smarter than both of us once said "Good pitching beats good hitting." With that said, it's still a team sport. As much as I love winning games 10-2, the rules count it the same if we win it 3-2. Konerko (and all the rest of the guys listed) have still contributed to the cause, like it or not. Or should we simply dump all six of them? Good God in heaven, man, stop focusing on everything that you perceive as wrong, and enjoy it a little. I've been a Sox fan a good piece longer than you've been alive (not that that makes me smarter), and I can tell you that seasons like these are few and far between. I tend to be a "glass is half empty guy" myself, but you make me look like Norman Vincent Peale.

Deadguy: I can't comment on the Chicago media giving Konerko a break, because I'm not exposed to it on a frequent basis. However, right, wrong or indifferent, Konerko talks to the media. Admittedly, he says things when he should keep his mouth shut, so my guess is that the media probably protects him because he is quotable. I am not defending him by stating that his accessibility to the media justifies him "getting a pass", I am just stating that it might be a reason why it is so.

JB98: I think you and I think alike on this one. Sorry to lower the level of your opinions to the depths of mine. I don't believe Paulie is having a good season by his own standards, much less ours.

Frater: You are, as usual, the voice of reason. Tell Mrs. Frater that the drunk guy from the upper deck home run porch says "Hello".

fquaye149
06-02-2005, 05:27 PM
Fquaye: "Don't you dare..." Friend, take a quaalude. Life is way too short to get this upset about a person's opinion, whether you agree with it or not. You called out roughly 1/3 of the entire roster as not doing the job, and six of them are everyday starters. I didn't make any remarks in my post disparaging our starting pitching. They are the reason we have such a great record. However, if you look at damn near every team currently with a winning record (or every team with a winning record throughout history), you could make a strong case that their pitching is a primary reason for their success. Someone a lot smarter than both of us once said "Good pitching beats good hitting." With that said, it's still a team sport. As much as I love winning games 10-2, the rules count it the same if we win it 3-2. Konerko (and all the rest of the guys listed) have still contributed to the cause, like it or not. Or should we simply dump all six of them? Good God in heaven, man, stop focusing on everything that you perceive as wrong, and enjoy it a little. I've been a Sox fan a good piece longer than you've been alive (not that that makes me smarter), and I can tell you that seasons like these are few and far between. I tend to be a "glass is half empty guy" myself, but you make me look like Norman Vincent Peale.

.

I surely am not pessimistic. In fact I love our chances this year and I don't complain about the lineup. All I complain about is when people act like Paul is a vital part of this team. He is a part of this team, I won't deny. And he does help us every now and then (at least 13 times this year...and unlike C Lee's homeruns last year, his HR's have not been meaningless)

However, the fact is, there is only one reason we are winning this year: the pitching. Every reason I cited was valid, and the fact that our team is successful does not change that. So far, our offense has given us BARELY enough runs to win with the outstanding efforts our staff affords us.

GREAT. If they can do this the rest of the year, more power. But yet, we are winning DESPITE our offense, not because of it. If you want to point to some lineup players this year we are winning because of and not IN SPITE OF it would be Pods, Gooch, and AJ. That's really about it. Everyone else has been more of a liability than a boon and if you think that's not true, you're crazy.

On the other hand, you have a perfect right to be crazy.

EDIT: sorry if my enthusiasm offends you. I'm equally offended by your potshots at my intelligence (insulting my intelligence with that "pitching beats good hitting." quote) and my age. Luckily, I'm not one to hold grudges.

Except against Mr. 3-6-3

The Racehorse
06-02-2005, 05:34 PM
PK will never be mistaken for Gehrig or Sisler, but we could do allot worse.

Jjav829
06-02-2005, 05:40 PM
Absolutely spot on. The Konerko bashing stems from the fact that this doofus seems to get a free ride in this town whenever he struggles, because someone else picks up the slack.

There have only been two seasons where Konerko's production has mattered. 2003, and this season. In both years, he's been an embarassment. In 2003, he was hidden behind the shadows of Thomas and Magglio. This season, it's the pitching staff that is allowing this spaz to avoid getting the finger pointed at.

In 2003, we fell short by 4 games. We actually had a 2 game lead in September. If Koch and Konerko actually did their jobs that season, could we have made the playoffs. Konerko wasn't asked to do much, but he still fell flat on his face, and embarassed himself.

This year, we have played well, but the lead is hardly insurmountable. All these games count as much as they do in August and Spetember. We can't shake the Twins, and if the pitching staff comes, the offense needs to pick up the slack. Konerko is supposed to anchor this lineup, and he has failed! Hence, the justified criticism! Quit giving this idiot any credit for our current record.

So did Konerko kill your dog or steal your girlfriend? Which one is it? :?:

JB98
06-02-2005, 05:43 PM
Hyperbole may mask the truth but it doesn't change it. I'm going off the 19 someone quoted in this thread. I was too lazy to look up the actual number and I misread the quote. I apologize for that.His Rbi total is still unimpressive considering his 1-2 hitters. His second half in 2003 was decent, I suppose, but for you to act like there's still time to salvage this half season is CRAZY. It's almost impossible for him to be hitting above .240 by break. So let's split the difference and say 3 GODAWFUL half seasons out of 6. And his 3 "good" ones sure weren't gangbusters.

So, you don't think it's possible for him to raise his average 20 points in the next month? Well, three weeks ago, he was hitting .180. His average reached .235 last week, before slipping back into the .220s. He's one hot streak away from being at .250. Don't let your hate cloud your judgement.

And I disagree with another poster's assessment about Konerko fans disliking Thomas, or having a lower opinion of Thomas. I am a fan of both players. Frank is a first-ballot HOF'er, IMO. I cheered as loud as anyone when he stepped to the plate in the first inning Monday. Konerko is a streaky but dangerous hitter. Both are assets to our team.

You know, it occurred to me this afternoon that no less than one-third and as many as half the players on our roster have encountered heavy criticism from posters at WSI. Just think about it: According to fans here, Konerko, Crede, Uribe, Dye, Perez, Contreras, Marte, Shingo, Vizcaino, Cotts, they all suck and need to be traded, released or sent to AAA. If all these players blow, then how come our record is 35-18?

IMO, the most popular Sox players on WSI are Ross Gload and Pablo Ozuna. Neither of them play, so neither of them make any mistakes. No one is mad at them, and everyone says they should be playing everyday. It's unbelievable.

Frater Perdurabo
06-03-2005, 09:52 AM
And I disagree with another poster's assessment about Konerko fans disliking Thomas, or having a lower opinion of Thomas. I am a fan of both players.

JB - I re-read my original post to see if I was overly "painting with a broad brush." I'm going to bold certain words to ensure there's no misunderstanding:

I think many (but not all) Sox fans are either "Frank Fans" or "Paulie Fans." Paulie's biggest supporters tend to have a lower opinion of Frank, and Frank's biggest fans tend to denigrate Paulie.

Notice I never said "all Frank fans" or "all Paulie fans." I also used the word "tend." It's a tendency, not a certainty or an absolute. In no way did I mean to imply that you specifically fall into either category, or even that most are that way. I hope I've cleared it up.

Frank is a first-ballot HOF'er, IMO. I cheered as loud as anyone when he stepped to the plate in the first inning Monday. Konerko is a streaky but dangerous hitter. Both are assets to our team.

I agree!
:supernana:

At this very moment, only because of his injury, the jury is still out on Frank for this year. Yet we should celebrate the greatest hitter ever to play for the Sox because of his brilliant career as well as what he can contribute this year (and hopefully for many years to come!).

At this very moment, despite his respectable HR totals and RBI numbers, Paulie has performed well under expectations. He's also among the highest-paid players on the team. I maintain that anyone who wishes failure upon him (or any Sox player for that matter) is not a Sox fan.

However, many of us Sox fans are quite frustrated and disappointed with his lack of production right now, especially in light of his quite successful 2004 campaign in which he rebounded so well from an abysmal 2003. I so sincerely hope he turns it around, and that Frank gets well quickly and puts up some monster numbers as well, because production is needed out of the third and fourth spots in the lineup and the players who play 1B and DH ought to be the ones to anchor the middle of the order.

Getting back to the title of the thread: "Konerko is hurting our team," I believe that if Paulie was replicating his 2004 numbers in 2005, the Sox might have 4-5 more wins. Moreoever, here are the games the Sox might have won with better production from Paulie:

4/17 v. Seattle (Paulie 0-3, left 2 in scoring position, Sox lost 5-4)
4/29 v. Detroit (Paulie 0-4, left 2 in socring position, 5 total LOB, Sox lost 3-2)
5/15 v. Baltimore (Paulie 0-4, left 2 in scoring position, 3 total LOB, Sox lost 6-2)
5/16 v. Texas (Paulie 0-3, left 1 in scoring position, 2 total LOB, Sox lost 7-6)
5/24 @ Angels (Paulie 0-4, left on man on first, Sox lost 2-1)

So, in summary, based on his contract and his abilities as a "professional hitter" (which I truly believe he is), I expect better things from Paulie for the rest of the season.

JB98
06-03-2005, 10:07 AM
4/17 v. Seattle (Paulie 0-3, left 2 in scoring position, Sox lost 5-4)
4/29 v. Detroit (Paulie 0-4, left 2 in socring position, 5 total LOB, Sox lost 3-2)
5/15 v. Baltimore (Paulie 0-4, left 2 in scoring position, 3 total LOB, Sox lost 6-2)
5/16 v. Texas (Paulie 0-3, left 1 in scoring position, 2 total LOB, Sox lost 7-6)
5/24 @ Angels (Paulie 0-4, left on man on first, Sox lost 2-1)

So, in summary, based on his contract and his abilities as a "professional hitter" (which I truly believe he is), I expect better things from Paulie for the rest of the season.

There's really not much question that Konerko has hurt us in some games this year. We need more from him, without a doubt. However, I don't think the Konerko haters around here understand that while Paulie has struggled, he has also hit some big homers and won us some games this year.

Buerhle doesn't win that one-hour, 39-minute gem he tossed against Seattle without Konerko's two dingers. We won a game in Anaheim because Konerko hit a 3-run dinger off Washburn. Or how about the 10-7 game in Toronto where he hit a 3-run HR and a 2-run HR? I can think of a few other examples besides those three, but I'm sure you get my point.

Konerko needs to be more consistent. He needs to be better with RISP. But I get the feeling that some around here (not you specifically, Frader) will refuse to acknowledge that Paulie has done anything right all year. His start to the season has left something to be desired, but even still, he has been far more productive than he was the second half of 2002 and the first half of 2003.

Hangar18
06-03-2005, 10:42 AM
But that 35-18 record BELONGS TO THE PITCHING.


YES, this much is true. And just imagine if Konerko were hitting ? We would be 40-13. Weve cooled off alarmingly quickly, mostly because now were playing teams that can HIT, which we cannot.

fquaye149
06-03-2005, 11:53 AM
YES, this much is true. And just imagine if Konerko were hitting ? We would be 40-13. Weve cooled off alarmingly quickly, mostly because now were playing teams that can HIT, which we cannot.

we've cooled off quickly because we've played 7 games on the west coast against 2 of the best teams in the AL, including the hottest team in baseball.

Take away that and we've won 2-3 vs. the cubs and 2-3 vs. the Angels.

not too bad.

ode to veeck
06-03-2005, 12:30 PM
just a suggestion: move this recurring thread to the what's the score forum

gosox41
06-03-2005, 10:45 PM
Everybody knows that Konerko sucks. Therefore, I don't think it needs to repeated over and over again.

When he stops sucking, I'll stop ripping. :D:


The way I feel watching PK play is 100 times the pain of reading the posts that he sucks.



Bob

JB98
06-03-2005, 10:53 PM
2-for-4 with two runs scored tonight. Boy, he was terrible again.

CLR01
06-04-2005, 02:28 AM
2-for-4 with two runs scored tonight. Boy, he was terrible again.


That sure makes up for him going 4 for 26 in the 7 games prior to tonight and batting under .230 for the second month in a row.

FarWestChicago
06-04-2005, 02:52 AM
That sure makes up for him going 4 for 26 in the 7 games prior to tonight and batting under .230 for the second month in a row. And it sure makes being a backstabbing, selfish, clubhouse cancer palatable.

doublem23
06-04-2005, 03:56 AM
That sure makes up for him going 4 for 26 in the 7 games prior to tonight and batting under .230 for the second month in a row.

But... did he start any 3-6-3 double plays? :rolleyes:

gosox41
06-04-2005, 08:35 AM
But... did he start any 3-6-3 double plays? :rolleyes:


ROFLMAO. Good one.



Bob