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View Full Version : Marte - Do you trust him?


iamkoza
05-31-2005, 10:49 PM
I do think that today was just pure bad luck, yesterday was bad defense... But so far this season while having a great ERA, his WHIP is a god awful 1.5... just throwing it out there. I sure hope he gets it going again along with vizcaino

Flight #24
05-31-2005, 10:53 PM
I do think that today was just pure bad luck, yesterday was bad defense... But so far this season while having a great ERA, his WHIP is a god awful 1.5... just throwing it out there. I sure hope he gets it going again along with vizcaino

His BB rate is NOT bad luck. And it's causing him to give up a ton of hits, because when he's got a guy on base (via BB usually), or when he's worried about walking a guy, he just serves one up. Sox got lucky today that none of those left the yard. Right now, he's with Shingo on my :o: list. He should break out of it, but those are the 2 who make me nervous. Cotts, Politte, Hermanson all make me feel warm & fuzzy when they stroll in, and while Vizcaino's still not great, right now he's only our 3d worst relief pitcher (Walker gets an incomplete).

RedPinStripes
05-31-2005, 11:31 PM
No , I think he sucks. And not just because of the last 2 games. I've argued with Sox fans all year that i don't trust him. I really hate the way he hangs his pitches. I'm not to happy with any side arm pitcher since the Sox have had a few of them over the years.

I'm especially pissed tonight because this is the second night in a row that Marte ****ed me out of a win in my fantasy league. :angry:

A Sox win is the only thing stopping me from making anti-Marte signs at the next game i go to. :D:

SpartanSoxFan
06-01-2005, 12:00 AM
Marte has serious control problems. Coop needs to break down his stuff and figure out what is wrong. If we could get the Marte from 2 seasons ago, we'd be in good shape.

Irishsox1
06-01-2005, 12:01 AM
Marte's walks drive me nuts!!!

balke
06-01-2005, 12:07 AM
Marte is a great reliever, I trust him with my life. - no teal.

1 game does not make the Reliever, and yesterday doesn't count since he forced the double play ball that didn't get turned. He could be a lower tier closer in the league, and is a top 10 set-up man in the league.

This is the most out of line bashing of a player yet, get a clue people.

flo-B-flo
06-01-2005, 12:09 AM
No I don't trust him.

FarWestChicago
06-01-2005, 12:10 AM
This is the most out of line bashing of a player yet, get a clue people.Why start now? This is Sox Clubhouse, Land of Idiots, and proud of it. :rolleyes:

Huisj
06-01-2005, 12:15 AM
he doesn't seem to do particularly well in big close/late situations this year (or last year for that matter). When he comes in with runners already on base, or when he comes in with a tie game, I get rather nervous.

Chisox003
06-01-2005, 12:15 AM
Trade Crede

Trade Konerko

Trade Dye

Now questioning one of our best relievers?

I realize this is all discussion and speculation, but please....I feel it's my duty to give it one of these guys ---->:rolleyes:

batmanZoSo
06-01-2005, 12:18 AM
I don't trust him. I think of him as the kind of guy who, if you were the kind of guy who saves all his change and keeps it in a Hinckley and Schmitt jug in your room, he'd take a handful every now and then when he needed the money. You know, one of those types....:rolleyes:

TaylorStSox
06-01-2005, 12:18 AM
I haven't been happy with Damaso for well over a year. I've discussed it on that other Sox site a fair bit. He doesn't seem to have anything physically wrong. He can still reach back but he doesn't seem to have the motivation.

3 Years ago his fastball had about 2 MPH extra with alot more life. His slurve used to be lights out. The movement was completely left to right on an even plane. It looks much more like a lazy curveball right now.

He's still a guy who can get outs. But, his WHIP is horrible. It's going to catch up to him.

kittle42
06-01-2005, 12:19 AM
Um, just don't pitch him after he threw two innings yesterday.

Problem solved.

TaylorStSox
06-01-2005, 12:20 AM
Let me add that his WHIP is much more indicative of his performance than ERA. If there's one stat to judge relievers on, besides for saves and holds, it's WHIP.

jabrch
06-01-2005, 12:24 AM
I love having Marte out there vs lefties.

PicktoCLick72
06-01-2005, 12:30 AM
I trust him. He will break out of this funk and be back mowin down opponents.

balke
06-01-2005, 12:31 AM
Let me add that his WHIP is much more indicative of his performance than ERA. If there's one stat to judge relievers on, besides for saves and holds, it's WHIP.


WHIP is so overrated. Hermanson or Marte start an inning with noone on base, odds are noone scores that inning. Marte was throwing filthiness 2 nights ago for the first 2 batters. Didn't throw horribly on the walk, he just got behind in the count too fast.

He needs to walk less people, but he throws well in the majority of tough spots. SO soon we forget while in Anaheim, he won us a couple games with great relief.

TaylorStSox
06-01-2005, 12:39 AM
WHIP is so overrated. Hermanson or Marte start an inning with noone on base, odds are noone scores that inning. Marte was throwing filthiness 2 nights ago for the first 2 batters. Didn't throw horribly on the walk, he just got behind in the count too fast.

He needs to walk less people, but he throws well in the majority of tough spots. SO soon we forget while in Anaheim, he won us a couple games with great relief.


Relievers don't have the luxury to get behind on the count. Over the course of a season, they'll get burned if they do.

Relievers can't walk anybody. It's part of the job. Of course they come in with people on. They're the ones that make it not matter. They get the guys out at the plate. Marte walks too many people to be considered a truly effective reliever right now.

iamkoza
06-01-2005, 12:51 AM
WHIP is so overrated. Hermanson or Marte start an inning with noone on base, odds are noone scores that inning. Marte was throwing filthiness 2 nights ago for the first 2 batters. Didn't throw horribly on the walk, he just got behind in the count too fast.

He needs to walk less people, but he throws well in the majority of tough spots. SO soon we forget while in Anaheim, he won us a couple games with great relief.

WHIP to me is the more indicative stat, you might have a low era, but if your whip is high, eventually your era will rise as well, only so many times a pitcher can escape

JB98
06-01-2005, 01:01 AM
The walks are what trouble me. The outing tonight wasn't a big concern for me. He just got hit, and that happens from time to time. What pisses me off is the walk to Figgins with the bases loaded yesterday. That's inexcusable. Marte's stuff is good enough. If he just throws strikes, the results are going to be favorable more often than not. Tonight's game was just an exception to the rule.

seanpmurphy
06-01-2005, 01:03 AM
I'm gonna jump in with Balke here. Yesterday was on Iguchi. Today, I didn't see the game, but apparently it was on Marte. You find me a reliever in this league that hasn't ever had a bad outing and well, I'll do something crazy. Every reliever is gonna have a bad day. WHIP, ERA, if all of you guys are so smart, try and take Coop's job. Bad days happen. Marte has been fine in my opinion for the most part. He's better than Vizcaino by far, and Shingo I've lost all faith in. I would hate to see how some of you people would treat your kids if they came home with ONE bad grade ever.

Nellie_Fox
06-01-2005, 01:10 AM
I'm not to happy with any side arm pitcher since the Sox have had a few of them over the years. Yeah, you've got to hate guys like Kent Tekulve and Dan Quisenberry in your bullpen.

shoota
06-01-2005, 01:14 AM
I do think that today was just pure bad luck, yesterday was bad defense... But so far this season while having a great ERA, his WHIP is a god awful 1.5... just throwing it out there. I sure hope he gets it going again along with vizcaino

No, I don't trust him, but I don't feel he deserves bashing either. (I'm not saying you've bashed him).

I don't feel confident in him because he hasn't come close to dominating like he did in 2003.

Confident list: Politte; Hermanson
Crap my pants list: Cotts; Takatsu; Vizcaino
On the fence: Marte; Walker

KW needs to get a primo bat whether he's a 1bman and/or 3bman. He also needs at least one more quality arm.

JB98
06-01-2005, 01:15 AM
Yeah, you've got to hate guys like Kent Tekulve and Dan Quisenberry in your bullpen.

Eckersley sucked too.

JB98
06-01-2005, 01:17 AM
No, I don't trust him, but I don't feel he deserves bashing either. (I'm not saying you've bashed him).

I don't feel confident in him because he hasn't come close to dominating like he did in 2003.

Confident list: Politte; Hermanson
Crap my pants list: Cotts; Takatsu; Vizcaino
On the fence: Marte; Walker

KW needs to get a primo bat whether he's a 1bman and/or 3bman. He also needs at least one more quality arm.

Why are people so down on Cotts? He was effective again tonight. I think he's had a pretty good season so far.

TaylorStSox
06-01-2005, 01:22 AM
Cotts has been better than Marte this year. He'll be better in the future. I like Marte and I think he'll be valuable for our team this year. He's been great the last few years. But, Cotts is going to be a stud.

seanpmurphy
06-01-2005, 01:30 AM
Why are people so down on Cotts? He was effective again tonight. I think he's had a pretty good season so far.

Cotts. 1.2 IP, 1 BB, 0 ER, 0 Hits.

I'd really like to see Cotts put up those numbers more often. I think he's got the potential to. Hopefully the slacking of others will cause him to step it up.

EDIT:
Season Stats.

1-0 3.38 ERA 16 IP 13 Hits, 6 ER, 7 R, 8 BB, 15 K

Like I said, with a little work, he's got potential.

IowaSox1971
06-01-2005, 01:35 AM
The guy gives up one earned run to a very good team. Yet, some people seem to think we should get rid of him.

seanpmurphy
06-01-2005, 01:39 AM
The guy gives up one earned run to a very good team. Yet, some people seem to think we should get rid of him.

*sigh* Welcome to WSI!:rolleyes:

balke
06-01-2005, 01:45 AM
Cotts has been better than Marte this year.

Good lord. Just stop.

I'm 3-3 with a 2.29 Era, I lead the team in Holds, I've given up a total of 6 runs in 20 IP, 5 Earned. I'm second to Politte in K's out of the pen. I'm Marte, and I'm equal in value to Politte right now, and will soon be valued higher by even the doubters. I'm Demaso Marte.

Cotts has 7 runs, 6 ER in 16 IP. Exactly why WHIP means jack. I don't want to stoop to belittling what Cotts has done this season, because he's been throwing the ball well. He's still nowhere near as good as Marte. WHIP, expecially at this point of the season means nothing. Marte has also pitched consecutive days, and besidess Vizz, has been put in the toughest situations out of anyone on this team, and faired pretty well so far.

The only valid point made in this thread is that Marte needs to stop walking people. He will. He's tied in my mind for 2nd best reliever on the team, only because I don't think Politte has been mismanaged as much as Marte. They are both on a team that has a top ten bullpen in MLB. I'm not worried about Marte in the least. Noone should be. They should be thankful we have one of the better Lefty relievers in the Majors.

TaylorStSox
06-01-2005, 02:04 AM
Good lord. Just stop.

I'm 3-3 with a 2.29 Era, I lead the team in Holds, I've given up a total of 6 runs in 20 IP, 5 Earned. I'm second to Politte in K's out of the pen. I'm Marte, and I'm equal in value to Politte right now, and will soon be valued higher by even the doubters. I'm Demaso Marte.

Cotts has 7 runs, 6 ER in 16 IP. Exactly why WHIP means jack. I don't want to stoop to belittling what Cotts has done this season, because he's been throwing the ball well. He's still nowhere near as good as Marte. WHIP, expecially at this point of the season means nothing. Marte has also pitched consecutive days, and besidess Vizz, has been put in the toughest situations out of anyone on this team, and faired pretty well so far.

The only valid point made in this thread is that Marte needs to stop walking people. He will. He's tied in my mind for 2nd best reliever on the team, only because I don't think Politte has been mismanaged as much as Marte. They are both on a team that has a top ten bullpen in MLB. I'm not worried about Marte in the least. Noone should be. They should be thankful we have one of the better Lefty relievers in the Majors.

I admit I went a little too far. :gulp::gulp::gulp: posting....

TaylorStSox
06-01-2005, 02:05 AM
Good lord. Just stop.

I'm 3-3 with a 2.29 Era, I lead the team in Holds, I've given up a total of 6 runs in 20 IP, 5 Earned. I'm second to Politte in K's out of the pen. I'm Marte, and I'm equal in value to Politte right now, and will soon be valued higher by even the doubters. I'm Demaso Marte.

Cotts has 7 runs, 6 ER in 16 IP. Exactly why WHIP means jack. I don't want to stoop to belittling what Cotts has done this season, because he's been throwing the ball well. He's still nowhere near as good as Marte. WHIP, expecially at this point of the season means nothing. Marte has also pitched consecutive days, and besidess Vizz, has been put in the toughest situations out of anyone on this team, and faired pretty well so far.

The only valid point made in this thread is that Marte needs to stop walking people. He will. He's tied in my mind for 2nd best reliever on the team, only because I don't think Politte has been mismanaged as much as Marte. They are both on a team that has a top ten bullpen in MLB. I'm not worried about Marte in the least. Noone should be. They should be thankful we have one of the better Lefty relievers in the Majors.

double post. :redface:

Dan H
06-01-2005, 09:29 AM
I cringe every time Marte comes in. He has great stuff, but he walks too many, and seems to work deep into the counts constantly. A couple years ago, he was blowing people away. Not now.

Hangar18
06-01-2005, 09:47 AM
He has been VERY VERY suspect lately. Its obvious every time hes come in,
hes either coughed up the lead or let the other team tie the game. He has
very bad mechanics right now. Late innings, I do not bring him in at all.
Vizcaino is only good for blow-out situations. Shingo .........only if were leading by two or more, he seems to relax with a lead. That doesnt leave
you much to work with does it? Pollitte has been a nice surprise lately .....
Ozz brings in Marte, Marte lose game. Ozz bring in Vizcaino, Vizcaino give up many hits.

tstrike2000
06-01-2005, 09:56 AM
I understand Marte's had far too many BB's this season but now many of us don't trust him? First we didn't trust Cotts, then Shingo, then Vizcaino, now Marte? Cotts has been alright so far and obviously I understand not trusting Shingo and Vizcaino. Even with his walk problems, I still think Marte is one of the best left handed relievers out there right now. I also still trust him more than I do Cotts if we need a lefty out of the pen. Like any good pitcher, he has struggled the last few outings, but with some work he'll gain the control of his sweeping slider and fastball.

balke
06-01-2005, 10:01 AM
He gave up a duck snort to allow a run yesterday. Big freaking deal, that could happen to anyone. There's an article on Whitesox.com about Marte right now that tells the true story, of how he's excelled as a 7th, 8th, and 9th inning pitcher. Marte isn't 2003 Marte, but he's still really good. I'd close games with him any chance I got, if the favorable match-ups presented themselves.

He's a young pitcher, so he gets thrown all over the bullpen as far as what inning pitched, and what his job is in certain situations. He's pitched a lot of consecutive days, a couple times pitching 2 innings one day, then coming out the next game to pitch in the 9th with runners on. He inherits a lot of runners, and with the exception of the past 2 days, finds a way out of jams. I think everyone is clouding their judgment due to 2 consecutive "bad" days. Your fantasy stats probably went down, and since you dropped him in your league for Cotts because of his WHIP, you think the Sox should do something similar.

As a side note, they mention Marte as possible future "trade bait" for the Sox. Often times Whitesox.com hints at things before they happen, like Carlos Lee's departure before the end of last season. Losing Marte would cripple our bullpen IMO. Hermanson and Politte would take on more responsibility to get people out with fastballs, and their ERA's would skyrocket. Hopefully the article meant future as in next season or something, unless they have plans of getting a better lefty in the pen.

Hangar18
06-01-2005, 10:01 AM
I understand Marte's had far too many BB's this season but now many of us don't trust him? First we didn't trust Cotts, then Shingo, then Vizcaino, now Marte? .


Lets put it this way .......... when I saw Marte coming in, with only a 1 run lead....... I said to everyone around me, there goes the lead. When the lead quickly evaporated, I wasnt all that surprised, just mad that I knew it was coming.

wdelaney72
06-01-2005, 10:09 AM
To all of you FODM,

Please remove the image we have of Damaso 2 seasons ago. Yes, he was lights out then. But he has been VERY inconsistent and unreliable this year and also last year. Are there worse relief pitchers out there? Absolutely. The question is, do you trust him with the lead? The answer is simply no. Sometimes he gets his job done, but on too many occasions, I've seen him completely not throw strikes.

It's not just yesterday's game. He has had control problems for going on 2 seasons now. I don't trust him. Period. Right now the only guys in our bullpen who I have complete faith in is Politte and Hermanson.

ma_deuce
06-01-2005, 10:11 AM
I wonder if distrust is the right word to describe how I feel about the bullpen. I guess I'm not as certain of a good outcome as I would like, but I do trust the bullpen to do thier best to clean it up. And for the most part they have. Pitching is not our problem. Our problem is that we are not scoring runs. Our bats have been streaky, and as a result we are not producing strong leads.

With as many one/two run games we have had his year, its no wonder that the pen gives up a few here and there. That and Ozzie's management of the pen is a bit lacking.

Still, in spite of all the problems, the Sox are on top. So though there is room to improve, its hard to distrust the best team in baseball. :D:

Deuce

balke
06-01-2005, 10:12 AM
Lets put it this way .......... when I saw Marte coming in, with only a 1 run lead....... I said to everyone around me, there goes the lead. When the lead quickly evaporated, I wasnt all that surprised, just mad that I knew it was coming.

Let me put it this way, in the White Sox chat during the May 24th Anaheim game, Marte came in with the go ahead run at the plate in the bottom of the 9th, and I said "Oh no, Marte gives up the hr ball". He went on to win the game pitching 2 full innings allowing no hits or walks.

In his last 9 outings he's walked 1 batter. His Era skyrocketed from 1.86 to 2.29 yesterday because of a DUCK SNORT.

mjharrison72
06-01-2005, 10:20 AM
Let me put it this way, in the White Sox chat during the May 24th Anaheim game, Marte came in with the go ahead run at the plate in the bottom of the 9th, and I said "Oh no, Marte gives up the hr ball". He went on to win the game pitching 2 full innings allowing no hits or walks.

In his last 9 outings he's walked 1 batter. His Era skyrocketed from 1.86 to 2.29 yesterday because of a DUCK SNORT.
Balke, I have to admit you've appealed to the part of me that remembers what a great lefty reliever Marte can be, and I'm willing to forgive him for the last two games, when I think he was, in fact, the victim of bad luck.

I have been fretting too much when relievers com into the game, and it's not making me feel good. These guys need to get this crap out of their systems now, so they can dominate later in the season... that's what I say!

balke
06-01-2005, 10:23 AM
To all of you FODM,

Please remove the image we have of Damaso 2 seasons ago. Yes, he was lights out then. But he has been VERY inconsistent and unreliable this year and also last year. Are there worse relief pitchers out there? Absolutely. The question is, do you trust him with the lead? The answer is simply no. Sometimes he gets his job done, but on too many occasions, I've seen him completely not throw strikes.

It's not just yesterday's game. He has had control problems for going on 2 seasons now. I don't trust him. Period. Right now the only guys in our bullpen who I have complete faith in is Politte and Hermanson.

What you really shouldn't trust is when your manager brings him in, the Defense botches the forced double play ball, then the next batter gets walked, and the reliever is left in. Its up to Ozzie to see in situations like that "Hey, he's not throwing strikes, and my other reliever hasn't given up a run all season, maybe I should pull him before things get ugly". We've trusted Marte with the lead many times this season that he's produced winning results. If he's not throwing strikes, then pull him before he gets into trouble, its that simple.

He had similar problems last season being consistant, because yet again he was relied upon too much, and mismanaged. The bullpen as a whole was relied upon too much, as at times they were 5th starters, and all season pretty much they had to pitch about 4 innings of relief or more collectively whenever there was a 5th starter. They also soaked up a lot of innings from Contreras' bad outings, Garcia's tight arm allowing him only about 6 IP/game or under, and as a whole our starters were pretty much being terrible. Until these past two days, Marte has looked great. I'd argue he did his job in both, and got struck with a case of bad luck. I guarantee if he gets a days rest, his next 3 outings will be lights out.

crazyozzie02
06-01-2005, 10:26 AM
Two Words......hell No

D. TODD
06-01-2005, 10:29 AM
I still trust Marte, he will be a huge factor in the Sox continued success. He is not a lights out dominate lefty,but every team in baseball would be happy to have him as part of their bullpen. I agree that when he struggles early with his control Ozzie should have a short leash though. Use him judiciously according to the matchups and he will be fine.

Ol' No. 2
06-01-2005, 10:40 AM
What you really shouldn't trust is when your manager brings him in, the Defense botches the forced double play ball, then the next batter gets walked, and the reliever is left in. Its up to Ozzie to see in situations like that "Hey, he's not throwing strikes, and my other reliever hasn't given up a run all season, maybe I should pull him before things get ugly". We've trusted Marte with the lead many times this season that he's produced winning results. If he's not throwing strikes, then pull him before he gets into trouble, its that simple.

He had similar problems last season being consistant, because yet again he was relied upon too much, and mismanaged. The bullpen as a whole was relied upon too much, as at times they were 5th starters, and all season pretty much they had to pitch about 4 innings of relief or more collectively whenever there was a 5th starter. They also soaked up a lot of innings from Contreras' bad outings, Garcia's tight arm allowing him only about 6 IP/game or under, and as a whole our starters were pretty much being terrible. Until these past two days, Marte has looked great. I'd argue he did his job in both, and got struck with a case of bad luck. I guarantee if he gets a days rest, his next 3 outings will be lights out.Marte has been fine. So far, the history of baseball hasn't produced anyone who never gets hit. But you have to be smart about when you use certain pitchers. I don't ever again want to see Marte on the mound in the 9th inning with the bases loaded. He tries to get too fine and inevitably walks in a run. How many times have we seen it? But that one limitation does not mean he sucks. Use him in the right situation and he's one of the best they have.

kevingrt
06-01-2005, 10:53 AM
I still trust Marte, he will be a huge factor in the Sox continued success. He is not a lights out dominate lefty,but every team in baseball would be happy to have him as part of their bullpen. I agree that when he struggles early with his control Ozzie should have a short leash though. Use him judiciously according to the matchups and he will be fine.

I think Damaso will be fine and will get over these two bad outings versus the Halos. I agree with your statement on how Ozzie needs to have a shorter leash on him when he comes in wild. When Damaso comes in and throws like two or three straight balls he doesn't seem to ever find the plate again. Ozzie should always have someone warming up in the 'pen ready to back Marte up.

mdep524
06-01-2005, 11:48 AM
The walks are what trouble me. The outing tonight wasn't a big concern for me. He just got hit, and that happens from time to time. What pisses me off is the walk to Figgins with the bases loaded yesterday. That's inexcusable. Marte's stuff is good enough. If he just throws strikes, the results are going to be favorable more often than not. Tonight's game was just an exception to the rule. Walks, walks, walks.

It's all about walks with Marte. I think Marte himself is too conscious about walks- either he's wild and gives them up, or he tries to be too precise and loses command (bases loaded situations), or he loses confidence and lays a meatball to Kevin Mench.

Gus like Vizcaino, Shingo, Mike Jackson... those guys I worry about getting hit around. Marte's problems seem to be mostly mental. When he gets consistently ahead of hitters, he is most definitely reliable.

RockyMtnSoxFan
06-01-2005, 11:58 AM
One thing I have observed about relief pitchers is that they tend to be streaky and inconsistent from one year to the next. I still think Marte is a very good reliever, but I would rank him third in our bullpen right now. Historically, he has been very good against lefties, but this year he has faired better against right-handed batters. His BAA is at .260, compared to .220 for his career and .185 in 2003.

Basically, I think he is still a very good pitcher and an important part of our bullpen. But we have to realize that he's not the stud he was in 2003, at least not right now. He could return to previous form but until he does, he makes me nervous. I don't think he should be the go-to guy right now. I think Politte has shown that he can get big outs. Again, this is subject to change.

The Racehorse
06-01-2005, 12:14 PM
I cringe every time Marte comes in. He has great stuff, but he walks too many, and seems to work deep into the counts constantly. A couple years ago, he was blowing people away. Not now.

Agree. In 2003, Marte was terrific... then there was opening day in K.C. to start the 2004 season...

Do I trust him? Who else we got to fill his role? We could do allot worse than Marte.

mjharrison72
06-01-2005, 12:33 PM
Walks, walks, walks.

It's all about walks with Marte. I think Marte himself is too conscious about walks- either he's wild and gives them up, or he tries to be too precise and loses command (bases loaded situations), or he loses confidence and lays a meatball to Kevin Mench.

Gus like Vizcaino, Shingo, Mike Jackson... those guys I worry about getting hit around. Marte's problems seem to be mostly mental. When he gets consistently ahead of hitters, he is most definitely reliable.
As someone already pointed out, Marte has only one walk in the last nine appearances... it's the TIMING of the walks that you notice... like the bases-loaded one that gave the Angels the lead on Monday.

ramorgan1
06-01-2005, 12:49 PM
i think if ozzie would quit pitching him every day (seemingly) that he'd be doing fine. Go Marte! Go Sox!

wdelaney72
06-01-2005, 01:01 PM
As someone already pointed out, Marte has only one walk in the last nine appearances... it's the TIMING of the walks that you notice... like the bases-loaded one that gave the Angels the lead on Monday.

Let's not forget the bases-loaded, game deciding walk last year against the Cubs.

mjharrison72
06-01-2005, 01:04 PM
Let's not forget the bases-loaded, game deciding walk last year against the Cubs.
OK... let's face it: Nothing stirs me into a killing rage more than a bases-loaded walk. A bases-loaded homer is pretty bad, too, but at least make the guy hit it.

Stroker Ace
06-01-2005, 01:04 PM
I don't trust him anymore

maurice
06-01-2005, 01:10 PM
Marte is in the Top 10% of MLB relief pitchers. Most MLB GMs and managers would kill to have a guy like Marte in their pen. Let's go back to ripping on the guys who actually suck . . . like Crede.

mdep524
06-01-2005, 01:10 PM
As someone already pointed out, Marte has only one walk in the last nine appearances... it's the TIMING of the walks that you notice... like the bases-loaded one that gave the Angels the lead on Monday. Well, like I said, its not so much actually walking a batter as it is the the thought in Marte's mind of walking the batter. If he gets afraid, things snowball on him, and he makes timid pitches which cost him (e.g. Figgins' walk, Mench's HR).

daveeym
06-01-2005, 01:27 PM
Marte is in the Top 10% of MLB relief pitchers. Most MLB GMs and managers would kill to have a guy like Marte in their pen. Let's go back to ripping on the guys who actually suck . . . like Crede. Great idea. With Marte it just seems like on his ****ty days you just know he's gonna blow it, usually only takes one batter to see how he's throwing. He's just got so much movement on his balls it seems like he always has to center them over the plate on his off days. Along with that there's not much difference in speed between his fastball and slider so when he's serving em up they get laced or fought off for hits.

MRKARNO
06-01-2005, 01:30 PM
The number of baserunners that Marte has allowed so far is very concerning. His WHIP is 1.68 and he seems much more wild than normal. Part of the problem is that he's allowing a ton more hits than he normally does, which is due to a combo of bad luck and worse pitching. His BAA this year is .260 where it's normally pretty close to .200 and that is making things worse for him this year.

I think part of the problem is that he's brought into so many close situations that when he fails, it's magnified because of the sheer volume of high-leverage situations he's forced to deal with.

He's scuffling now, but conventional wisdom says that BAA probably falls back into the .220's or .230's and he ends up fine when it's all said and done. I would probably put Politte in the 8th inning role right now as he's had problems with neither lefties nor righties (and he's making righties look absolutely foolish this year so far).

A lot of people have praised Ozzie for not going with the conventional roles that most other teams employ and I think in general it's probably a good idea to do things like that, but if he's going to do that, he has to make sure that Hermanson is getting enough appearances. He should not be afraid to use Hermanson for multiple inning save ops if he's going to run the bullpen this way.

Ozzie's reluctance to go to Hermanson early has cost the Sox in my view. He's got a 0.00 ERA. It might not be a bad idea to allow the best reliever in baseball up to this point in the season to throw more than 5 pitches in a 9 game period!

Flight #24
06-01-2005, 01:56 PM
The number of baserunners that Marte has allowed so far is very concerning. His WHIP is 1.68 and he seems much more wild than normal. Part of the problem is that he's allowing a ton more hits than he normally does, which is due to a combo of bad luck and worse pitching. His BAA this year is .260 where it's normally pretty close to .200 and that is making things worse for him this year.



IMO Damaso's having some real trouble. Some stats:
April: 11IP / 7H / 9BB / 14K
May: 8.2IP / 13H / 4BB / 9K

Small sample size, but it fits what seems to be happening when I watch him: He was wild early, and lately as soon as he starts to get wild and either walk or get behind a guy, he starts easing up with the result being a lot of hard-hit balls. Hence the reduced BBs & Ks with significantly increased Hs.

The key will be if/when he can get back to having some control and staying ahead of hitters. I haven't seen any trends of that yet. Also, his K/BB has been declining over the past few years which leads me to wonder whether he's no longer a premier setup guy, but rather just another decent one who's had a great year in the past.

Certainly not giving up on him, but it may push his role to being less of the "We need a lockdown in late innings" guy.

RedPinStripes
06-01-2005, 02:40 PM
Yeah, you've got to hate guys like Kent Tekulve and Dan Quisenberry in your bullpen.

They were never on the team i was rooting for unless i'm missing something here. I can't say anything bad about Quisenberry. I didn't see much of Tekulve. Can you name many side arm pitchers beside those 2 that didn't drive you insane when they pitched for the Sox or a team you liked?

SOXSINCE'70
06-01-2005, 02:51 PM
There are 2 Martes:

1."Everyday" Marte- this is the guy Sox fans wish they saw more of.
He attacks the hitters,doesn't nibble at the strike zone,and gets hitters
to strike out more than he issues free passes.:smile:

2. "Oy Vay" Marte- this is the model Sox fans have been stuck with
since 2004.Every time he comes into a game,you shield your eyes for
fear of watching him give up a bases loaded walk that ties the game
or a GW 3 run HR.:(:

Frater Perdurabo
06-01-2005, 03:55 PM
The thing about a bullpen is that they are filled with guys who the team cannot trust to start games.

No young pitcher aspires to be a reliever - they want to start!

If they can't win games as starters, they become relievers!

So, I really don't trust very many bullpen guys at all, because they almost always are not the best pitchers on the team! So, no, I don't "trust" Marte to be successful 100% of the time. I'm usually biting my nails when he comes in to pitch. (I'm also nervous when Hermanson comes in for the save as well, for that matter!) However, Marte's probably the second best option in the bullpen right now behind Hermanson, and he's still ahead of Politte and Cotts, who otherwise have been pretty good this year.

The other thing is, when a team cites their bullpen as the strongest area of the team, you know that team has MAJOR problems.

The fact that we Sox fans are arguing over bullpen guys who are not the closer at this time says a lot about the state of the team as a whole. And to be fair, their "top four" in the pen are

The most important "part" of a team is the starting pitchers. Thank goodness we aren't cringing over the 5th starter spot or the closer spot and instead we weep and gnash our teeth over the middle relief corps!

Nellie_Fox
06-01-2005, 04:56 PM
They were never on the team i was rooting for unless i'm missing something here. I can't say anything bad about Quisenberry. I didn't see much of Tekulve. Can you name many side arm pitchers beside those 2 that didn't drive you insane when they pitched for the Sox or a team you liked?So, what you're saying is, sidearmers are only a problem when they pitch for the Sox? Hmm. I wonder what it is about the Sox uniform that makes sidearmers go bad.

RowandKicksAss07
06-01-2005, 05:22 PM
I don't trust Marte really at all...But i will come to his defense and say that the last two games his defense hasnt helped him much. On Monday Iguchi ****ed up that double play ball (I'm still not sure what went on there) and then yesterday Podsednik let Garret Anderson's lazy liner drop right in front of him. Granted the runner on third could have scored, but Erstad was caught in between the baseline and hadnt even went back to tag up yet. With Podsednik's speed he should be able to get to any ball (alot like Jacque Jones does in LF), but Podsednik is just an average fielder.

ilsox7
06-01-2005, 05:26 PM
With Podsednik's speed he should be able to get to any ball (alot like Jacque Jones does in LF), but Podsednik is just an average fielder.

And no ball has ever dropped in front of Jacque Jones. *****.

RowandKicksAss07
06-01-2005, 05:28 PM
And no ball has ever dropped in front of Jacque Jones. *****.


Wasn't Podsednik a center-fielder before this? So I should't liken him to Jacque Jones, but rather Torii Hunter. With that being said, how many times have we seen Hunter or Jones make amazing plays that help out the pitcher? Podsednik is the fastest outfielder in the AL, and although speed isnt everything when playing the outfield (the read is important as well), he should be able to get to lazy liners with ease.

Epark84
06-01-2005, 05:30 PM
I do think that today was just pure bad luck, yesterday was bad defense... But so far this season while having a great ERA, his WHIP is a god awful 1.5... just throwing it out there. I sure hope he gets it going again along with vizcaino

In a word...no

ilsox7
06-01-2005, 05:34 PM
Wasn't Podsednik a center-fielder before this? So I should't liken him to Jacque Jones, but rather Torii Hunter. With that being said, how many times have we seen Hunter or Jones make amazing plays that help out the pitcher? Podsednik is the fastest outfielder in the AL, and although speed isnt everything when playing the outfield (the read is important as well), he should be able to get to lazy liners with ease.

You have no idea where Pods was positioned for that batter. Or maybe he got a bad jump. Bottom line is he has been a big upgrade over CLee and has above average range for a LF.

RowandKicksAss07
06-01-2005, 05:38 PM
Very good point...There is more to take into account than just speed. I just didnt like the way Scotty just gave up on the ball. But he's in the big leagues, he must be doing something right.

RedPinStripes
06-01-2005, 08:00 PM
So, what you're saying is, sidearmers are only a problem when they pitch for the Sox? Hmm. I wonder what it is about the Sox uniform that makes sidearmers go bad.

Well if i have to explain it in detail to you, I don't root for many teams beside the Sox and THEIR SIDERARMERS have not made me happy. So if Chad Bradford was good for Oakland for a few years, I really don't give a ****. Therefore, I'm not happy with the ones that I see. Are you done now?

SouthSide4Life
06-01-2005, 09:02 PM
I do think that today was just pure bad luck, yesterday was bad defense... But so far this season while having a great ERA, his WHIP is a god awful 1.5... just throwing it out there. I sure hope he gets it going again along with vizcainotwo words. HELL NO

Nellie_Fox
06-02-2005, 12:58 AM
Well if i have to explain it in detail to you, I don't root for many teams beside the Sox and THEIR SIDERARMERS have not made me happy. So if Chad Bradford was good for Oakland for a few years, I really don't give a ****. Therefore, I'm not happy with the ones that I see. Are you done now?No. My point was that what you said made absolutely no sense.

You don't like sidearmers because you think they haven't done well for the Sox. The fact that they have done well elsewhere is irrelevant to you. So I'm asking, do you think it's because there is something about pitching for the Sox that makes sidearmers not work out?

Because otherwise I don't get it. You're ignoring evidence that sidearmers are no more or less likely to be good on other teams and sticking to your bias against sidearmers based on only how they have done on the Sox.

How about the statistical concept called "regression to the mean?" It says that if you have observed several instances where the data are "outliers" it is very likely that in the future it will go the other way.

RedPinStripes
06-02-2005, 06:45 PM
No. My point was that what you said made absolutely no sense.

You don't like sidearmers because you think they haven't done well for the Sox. The fact that they have done well elsewhere is irrelevant to you. So I'm asking, do you think it's because there is something about pitching for the Sox that makes sidearmers not work out?

Because otherwise I don't get it. You're ignoring evidence that sidearmers are no more or less likely to be good on other teams and sticking to your bias against sidearmers based on only how they have done on the Sox.

How about the statistical concept called "regression to the mean?" It says that if you have observed several instances where the data are "outliers" it is very likely that in the future it will go the other way.

The Sox don't have good side armers.

To put Marte and Shingo in the catagory of Kent Tekulve and Dan Quisenberry is rediculous. Those are the 2 guys people bring up when you think of great side am pitchers. If we had both of them in 1985 I'm willing to bet i wouldn't be bitching about them making me nervous. When Marte, Shingo, and even Wunsch (Yes I know he's on the Dodgers now.) **** up, it's VERY obvious. Lots of movement, but right up in the zone and it hangs like a batting practice pitch.

So it's not that "I think the Sox organization jinx screws up anyone who happens to throw side arm." I haven't seen many good side armers out there in general and especially not on the Sox. Do i need to explain this again? Or are we done for the second time?

balke
06-02-2005, 08:59 PM
So it's not that "I think the Sox organization jinx screws up anyone who happens to throw side arm." I haven't seen many good side armers out there in general and especially not on the Sox. Do i need to explain this again? Or are we done for the second time?

You guys are probably done. Isn't Dontrelle a good sidearmer? I don't know if you guys are talking about relievers only.

Nellie_Fox
06-02-2005, 11:12 PM
Do i need to explain this again? Or are we done for the second time?We would never have started if you hadn't acted like I'm the simpleton because I can't understand that sidearmers are okay anywhere else but on the Sox. And you've done it again, by asking if you need to explain it again, like I'm the one who's not getting it.

Let's sum up. You said you don't trust sidearmers because they haven't done well on any team you follow. I pointed out some really good sidearmers on other teams. You countered that you don't care how they do on other teams, they don't do well on the Sox. I'm still missing the connection. But, yes, I'm done.

RedPinStripes
06-04-2005, 12:09 AM
We would never have started if you hadn't acted like I'm the simpleton because I can't understand that sidearmers are okay anywhere else but on the Sox. And you've done it again, by asking if you need to explain it again, like I'm the one who's not getting it.

Let's sum up. You said you don't trust sidearmers because they haven't done well on any team you follow. I pointed out some really good sidearmers on other teams. You countered that you don't care how they do on other teams, they don't do well on the Sox. I'm still missing the connection. But, yes, I'm done.

You pointed out 2 good sidearmers and I would love to have them on my team anyday and i would trust them . Just those 2!

And this isn't worth another view for me since you'll just insist that I'm the one not getting it.

See you in the next nit-picking thread.

Nellie_Fox
06-04-2005, 12:17 AM
You're another night owl, huh RPS? Truce, dude. I've decided that this is a stupid argument.

RedPinStripes
06-04-2005, 11:06 AM
You're another night owl, huh RPS? Truce, dude. I've decided that this is a stupid argument.

Yeah, this could go no where for a long time. I guess it was worth another view? :redneck