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View Full Version : Why did we get Dye????


soxfan45
05-27-2005, 08:01 AM
J. Dye is getting painful to watch. He really has no
clue up there.

1. 32 strikeouts and 7 walks. One of the worst ratios
in the American league for RF.

2. His .212 average is the WORST in the AL for RF.

3. His 19 RBIs put him at near the bottom of the list
for AL RF.

4. He has 1 SB and 1 CS.

5. His 33 hits are near the bottom of the pack for RF

6. He has 4 errors in RF

Mickster
05-27-2005, 08:09 AM
Why did we get Dye?


Because we needed a right fielder. Next question.

Hangar18
05-27-2005, 08:11 AM
Why did we get Jermaine Dye? Because hes a heck of a lot CHEAPER
than Carlos Lee is. By the way, how much is Dye making with us?
2 yrs 10 million?

FedEx227
05-27-2005, 08:11 AM
Why did we get Dye?

:LTP

"AYE!"

Mickster
05-27-2005, 08:16 AM
Why did we get Jermaine Dye? Because hes a heck of a lot CHEAPER
than Carlos Lee is. By the way, how much is Dye making with us?
2 yrs 10 million?

You are absolutely correct, Hangar. I would much rather have Carlos Lee than Podsednik, Iguchi, El Duque and AJ. Carlos is Much better than all of these "cheap" players. Give it a rest already.

Infallible
05-27-2005, 08:20 AM
for the same reason we got Koch from Oakland.......he used to be good.

mikehuff
05-27-2005, 08:25 AM
Oh God, Borchard!
OK, we all know that Dye sucks. I just wonder if we even have the ability to get a replacement. You wouldn't want to go into the playoffs with a bum like that.
You gotta leave it up to KW though. I'm sure he recognizes this problem and the rest of the offensive woes.
We should start an over/under for his first move this year.

ma_deuce
05-27-2005, 08:25 AM
Dye's performance is only further proof that we need Brian Anderson now. :wink:

gobears1987
05-27-2005, 08:31 AM
Hangar, please stop it. There is no way we'd be able to keep Lee and then get Pods, Iguchi, and AJ. Now who would you rather have? Someone who doesn't know how to break up a double play and is overpaid or 3 great players, one of whom has attitude and messes with hitters minds at the plate?

Dice
05-27-2005, 08:36 AM
My God! Some of you guys need to relax. We got the best record in baseball. Let's enjoy it.

As for Dye, he's not going to bat under .220 all year!

So why did we get Dye? Who cares! We got the best record in baseball.

Hangar18
05-27-2005, 08:37 AM
You are absolutely correct, Hangar. I would much rather have Carlos Lee than Podsednik, Iguchi, El Duque and AJ. Carlos is Much better than all of these "cheap" players. Give it a rest already.


:dye: Yeah Hangar, its all of us or nothing my brother!

Hangar18
05-27-2005, 08:44 AM
As for Dye, he's not going to bat under .220 all year!



I remember when he was hitting .170, and someone said Dont Worry,
hes not going to hit .170 all year .......heh heh. This guys brutal. He went on a mini 3 or 4 game "tear", where he got a couple of hits, but his defense is getting bad again, he shouldnt have bobbled that ball in RF putting Figgins on 3rd right off the bat to start the game .........

I will defend him here, the "strikeout" last nite of his, the checkswing one
was a TERRIBLE CALL (as usual) ...... he held up his swing

fquaye149
05-27-2005, 08:48 AM
I remember when he was hitting .170, and someone said Dont Worry,
hes not going to hit .170 all year .......heh heh. This guys brutal. He went on a mini 3 or 4 game "tear", where he got a couple of hits, but his defense is getting bad again, he shouldnt have bobbled that ball in RF putting Figgins on 3rd right off the bat to start the game .........

I will defend him here, the "strikeout" last nite of his, the checkswing one
was a TERRIBLE CALL (as usual) ...... he held up his swing

is he hitting .170 right now? so those people would be right.

the guy's a slow starter. he's not going to light the world on fire, and yet

he'll be decent eventually. i hope.

mikehuff
05-27-2005, 08:52 AM
Dye's performance is only further proof that we need Brian Anderson now. :wink:
Anderson makes you think. I'm not too sure he would be up this year, at least not until the expanded roster time in September. It does make you think about Dye this year though. The Sox are probably ready to let Anderson take over in RF in 2006, so they most likely won't get anything big for RF this year, at least anyone with a few years on their contract..
I couldn't imagine Anderson doing any worse than Dye. Making room for him would be tough though.

Harry Chappas
05-27-2005, 08:59 AM
is he hitting .170 right now? so those people would be right.

the guy's a slow starter. he's not going to light the world on fire, and yet

he'll be decent eventually. i hope.

Oh no...another Dye apologist!:D:

itsnotrequired
05-27-2005, 09:01 AM
is he hitting .170 right now? so those people would be right.

the guy's a slow starter. he's not going to light the world on fire, and yet

he'll be decent eventually. i hope.

No, he is not hitting .170. He's at .212 right now. Not the best but trust me, this funk won't last forever.

Captian Ron
05-27-2005, 09:05 AM
Borchard.

infohawk
05-27-2005, 09:06 AM
Dye's performance is only further proof that we need Brian Anderson now. :wink:

The only problem is that we don't know what Anderson would do in the majors. Crede's minor league numbers were outstanding, and he was a two-time MVP. For whatever reason, his numbers didn't carry over. Perhaps at some point this season, Anderson should get a shot, but we can't just assume his minor league numbers will translate into immediate success. Some may argue that he can't do any worse than Dye, but, again, I would caution that we just don't know.

veeter
05-27-2005, 09:12 AM
I'm another Dye apologist. He was awesome against the cub so that goes far with me. Yes, he's looked God awful but I think it's mental. Did he get terrible over the last off-season? Apparently he's a streak hitter, which the Sox line-up is loaded with. Maybe, just maye he'll go on the DL sometime and they can bring up Anderson. I do think though that Dye will contribute in spurts.

mikehuff
05-27-2005, 09:12 AM
Some may argue that he can't do any worse than Dye, but, again, I would caution that we just don't know.
Well at least you would think that he would be a better backup option than Timo is. Maybe he could take over Timo's role and they can try to work him into Dye's role.

ma_deuce
05-27-2005, 09:18 AM
Perhaps at some point this season, Anderson should get a shot, but we can't just assume his minor league numbers will translate into immediate success. Some may argue that he can't do any worse than Dye, but, again, I would caution that we just don't know.

Only one way to know...

mikehuff
05-27-2005, 09:33 AM
Maybe they should think of this sooner than later. If Anderson can fill that role, then that's one less thing that KW would have to worry about by the trade deadline, leaving his options open to replacing the other offensive duds.

You have about 2 months to see if you need to get a RF or not. Send Timo out of here and give Anderson the job.

Fake Chet Lemon
05-27-2005, 09:39 AM
I think his defense and club house leadership weighed heavily in the decision. But apparently his defense was WAY OVER-RATED. And as far as right fielders go, he was on the cheaper side of the ledger.

CubKilla
05-27-2005, 09:54 AM
And as far as right fielders go, he was on the cheaper side of the ledger.

And God knows how important players that play cheap are for this Organization.

mikehuff
05-27-2005, 09:58 AM
I think his defense and club house leadership weighed heavily in the decision.
Clubhouse leadership? His potential clubhouse leadership may have been a factor of why we got him. That could be true.
Right now, getting rid of him, I don't think we'll be losing any leadership from a guy who's only been on the Sox for 2 months. (and I'm not saying that you're implying that.)

clee-hegone
05-27-2005, 10:00 AM
i hope we trade anderson. how about anderson, borchard and diaz for bobby abreu. philly needs to cut salary cause they suck, abreu is a ****ing monster. then trade dye to the northside for a player to be named later.

Hangar18
05-27-2005, 10:04 AM
And God knows how important players that play cheap are for this Organization.

:reinsy You Bet!

mikehuff
05-27-2005, 10:04 AM
then trade dye to the northside for a player to be named later.

A player to be named later... what? I've never heard anyone proposing a trade for a player to be named later. Who do you want?

Hangar18
05-27-2005, 10:06 AM
i hope we trade anderson. how about anderson, borchard and diaz for bobby abreu. philly needs to cut salary cause they suck, abreu is a ****ing monster. then trade dye to the northside for a player to be named later.

Pinwheels kept bringing this up last nite also ........... its very intriqueing for darn sure. Give them Borchard and Diaz only. Cmon Kenny, we need a Carlos Lee type who can hit for Power and RBI's

clee-hegone
05-27-2005, 10:09 AM
really the player to be named later could be the worst prospect they have. as long we wont be financially commited to jermaine anymore is the big deal. nothing against jermaine but since the injury he hasn't been the same, kinda like ventura great player, ****s up leg, average player.

CubKilla
05-27-2005, 10:10 AM
A player to be named later... what? I've never heard anyone proposing a trade for a player to be named later. Who do you want?

Pie

Jjav829
05-27-2005, 10:19 AM
Pinwheels kept bringing this up last nite also ........... its very intriqueing for darn sure. Give them Borchard and Diaz only. Cmon Kenny, we need a Carlos Lee type who can hit for Power and RBI's

Ed Wade will be drooling all over himself to make this deal. Quick, KW, get on the phone and get this deal done. :rolleyes:

Jjav829
05-27-2005, 10:21 AM
How come every post on these boards about a trade looks like this: Sox get great all-star player (with the other team possibly playing some of his contract) and Sox give crappy or mediocre prospects, but never top prospects. Is it really that hard to grasp the simple concept that teams don't give up great players for nothing? I can't remember the last reasonable trade proposal I saw. Quantity does not equal quality. Giving a team 3 or 4 decent prospects does not equal one great prospect. Also, one great prospect comes nowhere close to equaling one great player.

Hangar18
05-27-2005, 10:23 AM
How come every post on these boards about a trade looks like this: Sox get great all-star player (with the other team possibly playing some of his contract) and Sox give crappy or mediocre prospects, but never top prospects. Is it really that hard to grasp the simple concept that teams don't give up great players for nothing?

Hee Seop Choi for Derek Lee
Bobby Hill for Aramis Ramirez

Flight #24
05-27-2005, 10:25 AM
FWIW, Dye in May is at .250BA / .893OPS. The OPS is due primarily to a .579SLG (6HR) since his OBP in May is still just .313.

Bottom line, despite his Anaheim struggles, he seems to be close to what we expected, hitting .250 with power (v .270 expectation). A guy will have ups & downs in terms of series, but if he maintains an .893 OPS I think we'd be extremely happy.

Sxy Mofo
05-27-2005, 10:28 AM
How come every post on these boards about a trade looks like this: Sox get great all-star player (with the other team possibly playing some of his contract) and Sox give crappy or mediocre prospects, but never top prospects. Is it really that hard to grasp the simple concept that teams don't give up great players for nothing? I can't remember the last reasonable trade proposal I saw. Quantity does not equal quality. Giving a team 3 or 4 decent prospects does not equal one great prospect. Also, one great prospect comes nowhere close to equaling one great player.


That happens on every message board of every team. Apparently in some people's minds, quantity of crap makes up for quality.

Flight #24
05-27-2005, 10:33 AM
How come every post on these boards about a trade looks like this: Sox get great all-star player (with the other team possibly playing some of his contract) and Sox give crappy or mediocre prospects, but never top prospects. Is it really that hard to grasp the simple concept that teams don't give up great players for nothing? I can't remember the last reasonable trade proposal I saw. Quantity does not equal quality. Giving a team 3 or 4 decent prospects does not equal one great prospect. Also, one great prospect comes nowhere close to equaling one great player.

You miss the $$$ portion, which in todays baseball world is huge. You trade a long contract, high salaried guy and you get back a lot less in return unless you send $$$ along with. The days when you traded a guy and the return was based primarily on talent are long gone.

Which is why it wouldn't surprise me if Aubrey Huff returned as much or more talent than Eric Chavez or Todd Helton. Because he's signed to a relatively cheap deal for a few years.

EDIT: Note that this doesn't make an Anderson/Borchard/Diaz for Abreu deal any less ridiculous.

Jjav829
05-27-2005, 10:34 AM
Hee Seop Choi for Derek Lee
Bobby Hill for Aramis Ramirez

Hee Seop Choi was hardly nothing at the time and he's playing pretty good baseball for the Dodgers right now. The Marlins were forced into trading Derrek Lee for money purposes and they got back a player with good potential to replace Lee.

Ramirez is an exception in terms of what the Pirates got for him. However he was hardly considered a great player at the time. He had put up one good year and then regressed back to his free swinging ways.

Jjav829
05-27-2005, 10:39 AM
You miss the $$$ portion, which in todays baseball world is huge. You trade a long contract, high salaried guy and you get back a lot less in return unless you send $$$ along with. The days when you traded a guy and the return was based primarily on talent are long gone.

Which is why it wouldn't surprise me if Aubrey Huff returned as much or more talent than Eric Chavez or Todd Helton. Because he's signed to a relatively cheap deal for a few years.

EDIT: Note that this doesn't make an Anderson/Borchard/Diaz for Abreu deal any less ridiculous.

You still have to give up talent though. I understand perfectly how money plays a factor into these deals. However some people seem to think that just because the player is making a lot of money, he can be had for nothing. That's just not the case. I don't care what Bobby Abreu is making, he's going to require probably 2 top prospects. I'm not talking about the Helton deal. Todd Helton is an exception in that his contract is such an albatross, the Rockies might give him away for free if they can find a team to take his contract. Then again, they might still want great players. Look at the Arod situation. The Rangers were desperate to get rid of that mistake. They had to swallow a big portion of the deal, but they still got one of the best 2B in baseball - Soriano - in return. Even big money deals require talent.

clee-hegone
05-27-2005, 10:49 AM
if diaz, borchard and anderson arent enough add viscaino and gload. i dont care what prospects would be needed, abreu is a beltran type player for about 60% off. he is what sammy sosa could have been.

CHISOXFAN13
05-27-2005, 10:54 AM
if diaz, borchard and anderson arent enough add viscaino and gload. i dont care what prospects would be needed, abreu is a beltran type player for about 60% off. he is what sammy sosa could have been.

SO one legitimate prospect and four pieces of crap for arguably the most complete outfielder in the National League?

For some reason, I don't believe Philly wants a 3.5 million dollar arm who is struggling to get people out, either.

Jurr
05-27-2005, 10:59 AM
Everybody on the team hits at different times, except for Iguchi it seems. The whole offense is struggling right now, and they need to get it together collectively. Dye just came off of an awesome series against the Cubs. He will cool off, and it looks like he has a little. Every player in baseball does this, or they would be posting 200 RBI, 90 homerun seasons. Baseball seasons are periods of peaks and valleys offensively for a player, and that's why you look at the completed body of work at the end. If Dye ends up batting .260 with 30 homers and 90 RBI, you'll be happy. You won't think about how bad it was when he wasn't hitting and the Sox lost ONE GAME 3-2. I'm sick of these 'frustration posts' because the Sox lost and people pick a guy to single out. I'm glad the Sox only lose 3 OUT OF 10 GAMES so that we don't see these things every day. Christ, you'd think this team was in last place.

lowesox
05-27-2005, 11:33 AM
I motion that when Frank comes back Crazy Carl takes over in RF. That'll give our lineup tons of spark.

seanpmurphy
05-27-2005, 11:55 AM
Everybody on the team hits at different times, except for Iguchi it seems. The whole offense is struggling right now, and they need to get it together collectively. Dye just came off of an awesome series against the Cubs. He will cool off, and it looks like he has a little. Every player in baseball does this, or they would be posting 200 RBI, 90 homerun seasons. Baseball seasons are periods of peaks and valleys offensively for a player, and that's why you look at the completed body of work at the end. If Dye ends up batting .260 with 30 homers and 90 RBI, you'll be happy. You won't think about how bad it was when he wasn't hitting and the Sox lost ONE GAME 3-2. I'm sick of these 'frustration posts' because the Sox lost and people pick a guy to single out. I'm glad the Sox only lose 3 OUT OF 10 GAMES so that we don't see these things every day. Christ, you'd think this team was in last place.

Well said! I agree. The Sox drop below .700 and all of a sudden everyone is talking about trading away Dye, McCarthy, Konerko in ridiculous deals including names, and I'm being serious, that include the following: Abreu, Pujols, Helton, Chavez, A. Rodriguez, Mark Teixeira, Hank Blalock, and Vlad Guerrero.

Let's get serious. The Sox machine is not broken. Maybe it needs a little tweaking in some parts, a little grease on the cogs in others, but replacing entire parts is not a necessity right now.

As for the people suggesting names like that, especiall Pujols, A-Rod, and Guerrero, I have this to say:

:dumbpeople:

Jjav829
05-27-2005, 11:59 AM
Well said! I agree. The Sox drop below .700 and all of a sudden everyone is talking about trading away Dye, McCarthy, Konerko in ridiculous deals including names, and I'm being serious, that include the following: Abreu, Pujols, Helton, Chavez, A. Rodriguez, Mark Teixeira, Hank Blalock, and Vlad Guerrero.

Let's get serious. The Sox machine is not broken. Maybe it needs a little tweaking in some parts, a little grease on the cogs in others, but replacing entire parts is not a necessity right now.

As for the people suggesting names like that, especiall Pujols, A-Rod, and Guerrero, I have this to say:


Where did anyone suggest that we should trade for Arod, Pujols, Teixeira or Vlad? :?:

chaerulez
05-27-2005, 12:02 PM
Where did anyone suggest that we should trade for Arod, Pujols, Teixeira or Vlad? :?:

Different threads.

Jjav829
05-27-2005, 12:04 PM
Different threads.

Can you point them out? Because I really don't remember someone seriously suggesting that we should attempt to trade for any of those four.

seanpmurphy
05-27-2005, 12:05 PM
Where did anyone suggest that we should trade for Arod, Pujols, Teixeira or Vlad? :?:

I don't want to see the Sox trade McCarthy, either.

However, if you were KW, would you trade McCarthy for Vlad Guerrero? Todd Helton? Alex Rodriguez? Albert Pujols? Mark Teixeira?

If there was a player out there who you believed would all but guarantee a World Series victory, would you still keep McCarthy?


I don't think they make a pink deep enough for that suggestion

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=50729&page=3&pp=15 Post #41

chaerulez
05-27-2005, 12:08 PM
Maybe we as fans were spoiled by the 2000 team, because at the end of the year every starter was hitting .280 except for Singleton and Valentin. But lets be realistic, not every one of our hitters is going to hit .280 if they did, our record would be even better than it is. Do I think KW will make moves this season? Yes, but for the meantime lets not put the blame on everyone that's hitting under .250- simply because we do have the best record in baseball.

Jjav829
05-27-2005, 12:09 PM
I don't think they make a pink deep enough for that suggestion

But Frater isn't suggesting that we should actually pursue any of those trades or that any of them are feasible. I'll let him speak for himself, but I took that post as an example of why you can't say any prospect is untouchable.

White Sox Josh
05-27-2005, 12:13 PM
I think that when Frank comes back Dye, Rowand, and Konerko will start hitting a lot better. Frank's presence in any lineup is a plus. I still think that Dye will hit in the .270's to .280's with 25-30 HR and close to 100 RBI. Everett should be the one moved to the bench.

Jurr
05-27-2005, 12:18 PM
I think that when Frank comes back Dye, Rowand, and Konerko will start hitting a lot better. Frank's presence in any lineup is a plus. I still think that Dye will hit in the .270's to .280's with 25-30 HR and close to 100 RBI. Everett should be the one moved to the bench.
I totally agree, though I think Everett should still be getting some AB's.

White Sox Josh
05-27-2005, 12:20 PM
I totally agree, though I think Everett should still be getting some AB's.I agree. I think you will see Everett get all the pinch hitting opportunities and maybe start once or twice a week. That gives the Sox great depth on there bench because Everett would be a starter on a lot of teams.

balke
05-27-2005, 12:27 PM
I wanna see Anderson out there :(. I'm sick of watching this guy strike out. At least Brian will hit .300 in between 150 K's. Dye will hit 28 HR's, and bat .260 if he's lucky. I hate the politics of baseball. Just cause we are paying Dye, we'll leave Anderson down to "develop". Dye was a great idea, but a huge flop so far.

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2005, 12:28 PM
But Frater isn't suggesting that we should actually pursue any of those trades or that any of them are feasible. I'll let him speak for himself, but I took that post as an example of why you can't say any prospect is untouchable.

That was PRECISELY my intent.

DaleJRFan
05-27-2005, 12:39 PM
Why did we get Dye????


Hurry KW, trade everyone! All of them, they're bums!!! This team sucks, I hate the new players on the White Sox. JR needs to sell!!!

:chickenlittle :whoflungpoo :selljerry :fireozzie :corpseball

clee-hegone
05-27-2005, 01:14 PM
i am so tired of hearing about these prospects. let me drop some other names for you that had unlimited potential in this city: jon rausch, kip wells, josh fogg, corey patterson, hee sop choi, bobby hill. what have they done in the big league's? not a damn thing. this team is 1 or 2 pieces away from something special. as far as frank thank you for the memories but he is past his prime and not worth 7 million dollars. if comes to a point of trading frank i hope he would take the todd helton approach accept for the better of the team. what did boston do after dealing nomar?? exactly.

gobears1987
05-27-2005, 01:17 PM
Cmon Kenny, we need a Carlos Lee type who can hit for Power and RBI's
Yeah we really need that. Look at all of the pennants we won with Maggs and Caballo.

balke
05-27-2005, 01:23 PM
i am so tired of hearing about these prospects. let me drop some other names for you that had unlimited potential in this city: jon rausch, kip wells, josh fogg, corey patterson, hee sop choi, bobby hill. what have they done in the big league's? not a damn thing. this team is 1 or 2 pieces away from something special. as far as frank thank you for the memories but he is past his prime and not worth 7 million dollars. if comes to a point of trading frank i hope he would take the todd helton approach accept for the better of the team. what did boston do after dealing nomar?? exactly.


Look at what happens to teams that sign long term BIG MONEY contracts like Helton's. Watch what happens to the Cardinals next season if they don't make the WS. Look what's happened to the Yankees. look what might have happened to us without diminished skills clauses, and greedy outfielders who didn't sign the dotted line. Was Colon worth the $$$ when they have prospects like Santana coming up through the system? The Cubs got stung in the end by Sosa's contract. How has Ken Griffey Jr. factored in Cincinnati's success? What's Beltre doing for the Mariners?

Some players you have to sign for that kind of money. When/if that player becomes injury prone, or busts... your entire franchise is crushed.

There have been some bad prospect busts in Rausch and such, but those pitchers weren't near the talent of Mccarthy. Mccarthy could possibly (don't want to blow him up way too much, or jinx him) he may be close to being our Prior. He's got height, control, smarts, poise, and power. He's what 22? Kip Wells never looked as good as Mccarthy does now.

I hate 15 mil + money for multiple years. We got burned for half a season paying Maggs 14 mil. Those are the kinds of contracts that sink franchises. Sure, occasionally your team needs that kind of move. The Cards may have needed that type of move last season with the Walker trade. Beltran may end up being the long term answer for the MEts. But for the Sox, you better be darn sure you're bettering the team, and going to the World Series, before you take on a Chavez/Helton type contract while they are slumping.

kittle42
05-27-2005, 01:26 PM
Yeah we really need that. Look at all of the pennants we won with Maggs and Caballo.

Seriously. I have had this conversation with Hangar many times...he says the Sox got Dye because Lee was too expensive. I say if they didn't dump Lee (and Ordonez), they wouldn't have Hernandez, AJ, and co. Hangar's response, inevitably, is that payroll should have been raised more.

The fact is, payroll wasn't gonna be upped any more than it already was. End of argument. KW worked with what he had, and worked very well with it so far.

Hangar18
05-27-2005, 02:35 PM
Yeah we really need that. Look at all of the pennants we won with Maggs and Caballo.

The reason we didnt win Pennants with Maggs and Caballo was because a lack of SPEED/TABLESETTERS at the top of the lineup AND a glaring lack of a 4th and 5th Starter.

Sleep520
05-27-2005, 02:41 PM
Seriously. I have had this conversation with Hangar many times...he says the Sox got Dye because Lee was too expensive. I say if they didn't dump Lee (and Ordonez), they wouldn't have Hernandez, AJ, and co. Hangar's response, inevitably, is that payroll should have been raised more.

The fact is, payroll wasn't gonna be upped any more than it already was. End of argument. KW worked with what he had, and worked very well with it so far.

If it's the same argument over and over...what's the point?

miker
05-27-2005, 02:46 PM
He's got better numbers the Maggs does with Detroit, no?

Hangar18
05-27-2005, 03:10 PM
If it's the same argument over and over...what's the point?

Ahhh, but as we see, we are operating under the foolish assumption that
the SOX werent winning with Caballo and Maggs. The reason we didnt "Win" was because we didnt have SPEED/TABLESETTERS at the top of the lineup, and we didnt have a 4th/5th STARTER. Thats why we didnt win. Not because of Maggs and Carlos. Im sure glad were winning, but now we need offense. Everyone keeps saying "look at the money we saved" and we were able to get all those other players. Why didnt we simply raise the payroll just $8 Million more to allow Carlos Lee, (and go get all of those "other" players) a sure thing mind you, in our lineup, instead of taking a chance on admittedly "cheaper" Jermaine Dye? Ironically, the money we "saved", is now wasted as the SOX will surely have to take on some salary in a trade, and we'll definitely lose a prized prospect in a midseason trade because everyone knows Hitting and Pitching cost more midseason than they do in the offseason

Sleep520
05-27-2005, 03:18 PM
Ahhh, but as we see, we are operating under the foolish assumption that
the SOX werent winning with Caballo and Maggs. The reason we didnt "Win" was because we didnt have SPEED/TABLESETTERS at the top of the lineup, and we didnt have a 4th/5th STARTER. Thats why we didnt win. Not because of Maggs and Carlos. Im sure glad were winning, but now we need offense. Everyone keeps saying "look at the money we saved" and we were able to get all those other players. Why didnt we simply raise the payroll just $8 Million more to allow Carlos Lee, (and go get all of those "other" players) a sure thing mind you, in our lineup, instead of taking a chance on admittedly "cheaper" Jermaine Dye? Ironically, the money we "saved", is now wasted as the SOX will surely have to take on some salary in a trade, and we'll definitely lose a prized prospect in a midseason trade because everyone knows Hitting and Pitching cost more midseason than they do in the offseason

I don't think we get Pods without trading Lee.

TaylorStSox
05-27-2005, 03:20 PM
Hangar........Why does everything revert back to the Cubs? Everything!!! Do you watch more Cub games than Sox games?

Lee, Rowand and Pods would be one of the worst defensive outfields that I've ever seen. Who's going to play right? Lee with his range and cannon?

There weren't many RF's available last year. Hangar's beloved Cubs signed Burnitz for christ sakes.

Anderson may or may not be an improvement. Look around the net and you'll see more "experts" who think his ceiling is as a 4th outfielder. Hopefully, they're wrong. It's not really a solution right now.

You can throw 25 crap to mediocre prospects, like have been suggested in this thread, to the Phils for Abreu and they won't budge. He's the most underated player in the game, arguably.

How about...Borchard, Honel, Yofu, Diaz, Munoz, Baj, Tracey, and Viscaino for Abreu? :rolleyes:

Hangar18
05-27-2005, 03:32 PM
Hangar........Why does everything revert back to the Cubs? Everything!!! Do you watch more Cub games than Sox games?

Lee, Rowand and Pods would be one of the worst defensive outfields that I've ever seen. Who's going to play right? Lee with his range and cannon?

There weren't many RF's available last year. Hangar's beloved Cubs signed Burnitz for christ sakes.

Anderson may or may not be an improvement. Look around the net and you'll see more "experts" who think his ceiling is as a 4th outfielder. Hopefully, they're wrong. It's not really a solution right now.

You can throw 25 crap to mediocre prospects, like have been suggested in this thread, to the Phils for Abreu and they won't budge. He's the most underated player in the game, arguably.

How about...Borchard, Honel, Yofu, Diaz, Munoz, Baj, Tracey, and Viscaino for Abreu? :rolleyes:


Where where did I mentionnn the Cubs? hmmmmmmmm.
Anyway, as for LEE, ROWAND, PODS being one of the worst outfields??
I dont know......thats debatable, but doesnt mean we couldnt have had
LEE DH'ing in the meantime. get back to me about everything reverting back to the cubs, I didnt see it in my last post ........

TaylorStSox
05-27-2005, 03:34 PM
Where where did I mentionnn the Cubs? hmmmmmmmm.
Anyway, as for LEE, ROWAND, PODS being one of the worst outfields??
I dont know......thats debatable, but doesnt mean we couldnt have had
LEE DH'ing in the meantime. get back to me about everything reverting back to the cubs, I didnt see it in my last post ........

Bobby Hill and Hee Sop Choi were your examples of trades.

Hangar18
05-27-2005, 03:49 PM
Bobby Hill and Hee Sop Choi were your examples of trades.


OK, gotcha. I brought them up as a yardstick, of another GM in the same city, who was able to trade inferior players (as opposed to trading blue-chip prospects) in order to acquire better players.

TaylorStSox
05-27-2005, 03:58 PM
OK, gotcha. I brought them up as a yardstick, of another GM in the same city, who was able to trade inferior players (as opposed to trading blue-chip prospects) in order to acquire better players.

Choi and Hill were still "blue chippers" to alot of people around the league. Lee had a contract situation that the Marlins wanted out of. Ramirez was a streaky hitter who looked to be on the downside with a swiss cheese glove. You have to look at the situations that lead to trades.

Hangar18
05-27-2005, 04:30 PM
Choi and Hill were still "blue chippers" to alot of people around the league.


Im going to disagree about Choi & Hill being blue-chippers. They were
both players the Cubs played on a regular basis and both FAILED. The Marlins
wouldve kept Lee, but he was arbitration eligible and a FA after the season,
and the Marlins had no money. If they had money, the cubs dont rip off
the Marlins like they did. The Cubs had blue-chip prospects like DuBois for instance, and wouldnt part with them.

White Sox Josh
05-27-2005, 04:32 PM
Im going to disagree about Choi & Hill being blue-chippers. They were
both players the Cubs played on a regular basis and both FAILED. The Marlins
wouldve kept Lee, but he was arbitration eligible and a FA after the season,
and the Marlins had no money. If they had money, the cubs dont rip off
the Marlins like they did. The Cubs had blue-chip prospects like DuBois for instance, and wouldnt part with them.Yes but they still had potential and a lot of teams would want both of them. While i'm not sure about Hill a lot of teams would want to take a look at Choi.

Flight #24
05-27-2005, 04:46 PM
You still have to give up talent though. I understand perfectly how money plays a factor into these deals. However some people seem to think that just because the player is making a lot of money, he can be had for nothing. That's just not the case. I don't care what Bobby Abreu is making, he's going to require probably 2 top prospects. I'm not talking about the Helton deal. Todd Helton is an exception in that his contract is such an albatross, the Rockies might give him away for free if they can find a team to take his contract. Then again, they might still want great players. Look at the Arod situation. The Rangers were desperate to get rid of that mistake. They had to swallow a big portion of the deal, but they still got one of the best 2B in baseball - Soriano - in return. Even big money deals require talent.

There's a lot of examples though. DLee & Ramirez trades for the Cubs. CLee trade for the Sox. Larry Walker to the Cards for a bag of balls. Mike Hampton trade for the Rockies.

Yes, if you're getting bigtime talent in return, you're going to have to give something up. But multiple top prospects is not the general return unless you're sending along a bunch of cash. A guy like Abreu would be an exception because he's not only great, he's at the top of his game right now, and he's arguably among the top 5-10 players in the league. But for example a guy like Chavez would fall into the "1 good prospect, or 2 if you're sending cash" mold because while he's very good and plays at a position where there's not a lot of true studs, he's never posted a .900 OPS, has little speed, and is off to a pretty bad start.

oldcomiskey
05-27-2005, 06:06 PM
would you rather have Timo Perez in RF

maurice
05-27-2005, 06:22 PM
Look around the net and you'll see more "experts" who think his ceiling is as a 4th outfielder.

Probably the same people who predicted that Frank Thomas would be a bust because he has "only slider bat speed."
:kukoo:

JohnBasedowYoda
05-27-2005, 06:32 PM
because we wanted a tougher team, and whats tougher than a dude with scars on his face? nothing. win or die trying and get scars

guillen4life13
05-27-2005, 06:39 PM
J. Dye is getting painful to watch. He really has no
clue up there.

1. 32 strikeouts and 7 walks. One of the worst ratios
in the American league for RF.

2. His .212 average is the WORST in the AL for RF.

3. His 19 RBIs put him at near the bottom of the list
for AL RF.

4. He has 1 SB and 1 CS.

5. His 33 hits are near the bottom of the pack for RF

6. He has 4 errors in RF

Because:

1) he's a veteran and better than any in major league ready house alternatives (Borchard? pfft! Anderson needs to finish out this year in AAA)
2) He has an awesome track record.
3) He came cheap.

My question for you and some other people is: Why are you so oblivious of the hindsight bias?

Chisox003
05-27-2005, 06:42 PM
Because:

1) he's a veteran and better than any in major league ready house alternatives (Borchard? pfft! Anderson needs to finish out this year in AAA)
2) He has an awesome track record.
3) He came cheap.

My question for you and some other people is: Why are you so oblivious of the hindsight bias?

Thank you.

My question to those people is: WHEN WILL THESE THREADS STOP?!?! :thud:

People, our White Sox are 33-15 with the best record in baseball!! This team has had one of the best starts in team HISTORY! STOP THE MADNESS!!!

White Sox Josh
05-27-2005, 07:42 PM
It's obvious that
:threadsucks

MikeW
05-27-2005, 10:21 PM
It's just a hunch on my part. But by July and August Jermaine Dye will be tearing it up and everybody will be saying what a great pick up he was.

soxfan45
05-28-2005, 09:28 AM
If you call a career .269 hitter someone who
has "torn it up" then OK, maybe he does get a
bit better down the road.

In an 11 year career he has had 100+ rbis only
3 times. He's had 4 years of 100+ Ks as well.

Granted, he seems pretty "cool" given his tough
start and doesn't appear (outwardly) to be pressing.

But come on, one has to think that we have to
at least address the "contact" issues that Dye is
having by just putting the ball in play. He's got
32 Ks this year and it seems like they are happening
in key situations.

guillen4life13
05-28-2005, 12:07 PM
If you call a career .269 hitter someone who
has "torn it up" then OK, maybe he does get a
bit better down the road.

In an 11 year career he has had 100+ rbis only
3 times. He's had 4 years of 100+ Ks as well.

Granted, he seems pretty "cool" given his tough
start and doesn't appear (outwardly) to be pressing.

But come on, one has to think that we have to
at least address the "contact" issues that Dye is
having by just putting the ball in play. He's got
32 Ks this year and it seems like they are happening
in key situations.

Tell me some logical, realistic, cost effective alternatives they could have chosen and I'll take you seriously.

MRKARNO
05-28-2005, 12:16 PM
Tell me some logical, realistic, cost effective alternatives they could have chosen and I'll take you seriously.

One could make a case for Richard Hidalgo, but he hasnt been all that much better than Dye, despite his recent hot streak.

Lip Man 1
05-28-2005, 12:56 PM
While I understand the frustration I think some of you are missing the big picture. It's not just Dye...it's not just Konerko...it's basically the entire team.

Look at it this way...two of the biggest question marks voiced at WSI as well as in the mainsteam media were about Aaron Roward and Juan Uribe. Were those 2004 seasons a fluke or an indication of things to come?

So far with those two the answer is obvious....throw in Crede and you can see how difficlut it is for this club to score runs.

One can say that if Roward and Uribe were producing like last year this wouldn't be an issue (meaning Dye...)

I'm not singling them out I'm just saying that the Sox felt things would break a different way with some players then it has so far this season.

Lip

Hangar18
05-28-2005, 01:26 PM
Tell me some logical, realistic, cost effective alternatives they could have chosen and I'll take you seriously.

What if we just KEPT Carlos Lee? Best option and only "costs" $8million this year. The budget ....... is all self-imposed, so no more of the "but look at all the players we got for Carlos". Part of being a GM is SELLING. Selling the idea to opposing GM's and selling the idea to penny-pinching Jerry Rein$dorf.

Hendry has been able to do it, so it can be done. Take on the extra money
and quit whining about how we dont have enough money or budget this etc.
Right now, $8million dollars is whats standing between a better record and the White Sox. By the time the trading deadline comes around, the SOX will have ironically spent MORE than $8million dollars acquiring more players not to mention the cost of trading minor-leaguers. Getting Posednik was great ..... but we needed him last year too. Getting AJ was excellent, but we needed him last year too. Contreras and El Duque? great pickups, but we needed them in 2001. and in 2002. and in 2003. and 2004.
I know, its totally argueable that without LEE, we dont get Podsednik but doggone it, why does it always have to be ONE or the OTHER with this team?
Why cant we just have it all for once?

balke
05-28-2005, 01:50 PM
What if we just KEPT Carlos Lee? Best option and only "costs" $8million this year. The budget ....... is all self-imposed, so no more of the "but look at all the players we got for Carlos". Part of being a GM is SELLING. Selling the idea to opposing GM's and selling the idea to penny-pinching Jerry Rein$dorf.

Hendry has been able to do it, so it can be done. Take on the extra money
and quit whining about how we dont have enough money or budget this etc.
Right now, $8million dollars is whats standing between a better record and the White Sox. By the time the trading deadline comes around, the SOX will have ironically spent MORE than $8million dollars acquiring more players not to mention the cost of trading minor-leaguers. Getting Posednik was great ..... but we needed him last year too. Getting AJ was excellent, but we needed him last year too. Contreras and El Duque? great pickups, but we needed them in 2001. and in 2002. and in 2003. and 2004.
I know, its totally argueable that without LEE, we dont get Podsednik but doggone it, why does it always have to be ONE or the OTHER with this team?
Why cant we just have it all for once?
Which brings us back to DOe.. a deer a female deer.

Cripes, there was no maybe. No CLee, no Pods. NOONE CAN HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. That's how baseball works. NOone is just going to give you the best stolen base guy in the league.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-28-2005, 02:03 PM
Which brings us back to DOe.. a deer a female deer.

Cripes, there was no maybe. No CLee, no Pods. NOONE CAN HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. That's how baseball works. NOone is just going to give you the best stolen base guy in the league.

LOL! Good one!
:thumbsup:

The improvement of the 2005 Sox over 2004's W-L record is 100 percent due to the improvement in pitching, especially the starting five. Podsednik and Iguchi have been the lone bright spots on the offensive side and I doubt we have either without trading Lee.

Enjoy the best pitching staff in baseball, they're the ones that have delivered our league-best record. As for the offense, we never get the pitchers without trading away a quality bat like Lee's... and Konerko's doesn't qualify.

fquaye149
05-28-2005, 03:19 PM
What if we just KEPT Carlos Lee? Best option and only "costs" $8million this year. The budget ....... is all self-imposed, so no more of the "but look at all the players we got for Carlos". Part of being a GM is SELLING. Selling the idea to opposing GM's and selling the idea to penny-pinching Jerry Rein$dorf.

Hendry has been able to do it, so it can be done. Take on the extra money
and quit whining about how we dont have enough money or budget this etc.
Right now, $8million dollars is whats standing between a better record and the White Sox. By the time the trading deadline comes around, the SOX will have ironically spent MORE than $8million dollars acquiring more players not to mention the cost of trading minor-leaguers. Getting Posednik was great ..... but we needed him last year too. Getting AJ was excellent, but we needed him last year too. Contreras and El Duque? great pickups, but we needed them in 2001. and in 2002. and in 2003. and 2004.
I know, its totally argueable that without LEE, we dont get Podsednik but doggone it, why does it always have to be ONE or the OTHER with this team?
Why cant we just have it all for once?

Get over those TWO trades hendry has made in his career. Good grief. Notice how no one else, Hendry or not, has equalled those trades (although the Ramirez trade is overrated imo)

guillen4life13
05-28-2005, 08:27 PM
What if we just KEPT Carlos Lee? Best option and only "costs" $8million this year. The budget ....... is all self-imposed, so no more of the "but look at all the players we got for Carlos". Part of being a GM is SELLING. Selling the idea to opposing GM's and selling the idea to penny-pinching Jerry Rein$dorf.

Hendry has been able to do it, so it can be done. Take on the extra money
and quit whining about how we dont have enough money or budget this etc.
Right now, $8million dollars is whats standing between a better record and the White Sox. By the time the trading deadline comes around, the SOX will have ironically spent MORE than $8million dollars acquiring more players not to mention the cost of trading minor-leaguers. Getting Posednik was great ..... but we needed him last year too. Getting AJ was excellent, but we needed him last year too. Contreras and El Duque? great pickups, but we needed them in 2001. and in 2002. and in 2003. and 2004.
I know, its totally argueable that without LEE, we dont get Podsednik but doggone it, why does it always have to be ONE or the OTHER with this team?
Why cant we just have it all for once?

Look. Accept it. The Sox/Reinsy weren't going to hike payroll up that much. Move on with your life.

Now look at the logic of it.

If Lee, then:
-no Podsednik
-no Duque
-no Vizcaino (which, maybe, is not such a bad thing after all)
-no Pierzynski (now... if you wanted Davis over A.J... then...)

Podsednik has been much more of an asset to this team than Lee has ever been. If you're going to complain about the past, then again, there's no reasoning with you.

Hendry made two... TWO trades. It's not like KW hasn't made good trades.

Guerrier for Marte.
Everett (two separate occasions). For Rauch on the second one, who is now again on the DL with a torn labrum.
Sirotka for Wells (that was a good trade, even if it didn't pan out). Siro hasn't done jack since then, and David Wells got injured, but hindsight is always 20/20.

We can't have it all because we aren't the Yankees. And if you're going to complain about that, then there's no point in reasoning with you.

Why don't you just try to sit back and enjoy the ride, man?


On another note, Hangar: I got Rust in Peace a couple months ago and I've been playing it non-stop (especially Holy Wars and Tornado of Souls). What other Deth albums would you recommend?

Jurr
05-28-2005, 08:34 PM
Look. Accept it. The Sox/Reinsy weren't going to hike payroll up that much. Move on with your life.

Now look at the logic of it.

If Lee, then:
-no Podsednik
-no Duque
-no Vizcaino (which, maybe, is not such a bad thing after all)
-no Pierzynski (now... if you wanted Davis over A.J... then...)

Podsednik has been much more of an asset to this team than Lee has ever been. If you're going to complain about the past, then again, there's no reasoning with you.

Hendry made two... TWO trades. It's not like KW hasn't made good trades.

Guerrier for Marte.
Everett (two separate occasions). For Rauch on the second one, who is now again on the DL with a torn labrum.
Sirotka for Wells (that was a good trade, even if it didn't pan out). Siro hasn't done jack since then, and David Wells got injured, but hindsight is always 20/20.

We can't have it all because we aren't the Yankees. And if you're going to complain about that, then there's no point in reasoning with you.

Why don't you just try to sit back and enjoy the ride, man?


On another note, Hangar: I got Rust in Peace a couple months ago and I've been playing it non-stop (especially Holy Wars and Tornado of Souls). What other Deth albums would you recommend?

:hawk Great concept.......I luuuv it when you analyze!

SOXit2EM
05-29-2005, 09:13 PM
This guy killed us when he was on other teams, now he's killing us on ours. I don't care if he's making 5+ Mil a year, he has to be benched. With Frank coming back maybe Ozzie should put Pods in center, move Rowand to right, which they have both played before, and put Everett in left. I know this weakens us defensively, but Dye isn't much better than Everett in the field at this point :angry:......And go w/ this lineup....Pods, Iguchi, Frank, Konerko, Everett, Rowand, AJ, Crede, Uribe.....

Lip Man 1
05-29-2005, 09:33 PM
Just my opinion but to me the 'key' is the veteran Sox players.. Rowand, Uribe and Crede. The first two have to prove 2004 wasn't a fluke. The last one has to start hitting period.

Lip

ScottsdaleSoxFan
05-29-2005, 09:35 PM
Raul Mondesi was just designated for assignment, I'm desperate for any offensive help. Big Frank back tomorrow!