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Daver
11-11-2001, 06:53 PM
From a Minn. reporter as taken from MLB.com

In his column Friday morning, Minnesapolis Star-Tribune sports columnist Dan Barreiro suggested that it is time for Minnesotans to make a decision.

"Like locusts, the political grandstanders are swarming around the Twins story," he wrote. "Minnesota Attorney General Mike Hatch announces he plans to sue the baseball owners if they attempt to dissolve the Twins. ...

"If it's not lawsuits from the grandstanders, it's vitriol -- us at our outraged best. The lords who run baseball are greedy extortionists who will be the ruination of the game. ... To recap the prevailing sentiment: We renounce your system as failed and corrupt. We refuse to play by the sleazy rules of your contemptible little game. We don't like you and we don't want you. But don't you dare try to leave us, or there will be hell to pay. ...

"If, in fact, baseball is as dysfunctional a business as some suggest, then why chafe at the prospect that it may vacate your premises? Why run to the courts to save it? And why pretend to be shocked that it could be leaving? If, on the other hand, it is viewed as worth saving, then it should be considered a valued part of the cultural landscape, worthy of substantial public financing. That means playing ball with billionaire characters who are unpopular, sometimes even unsavory, and who will also most assuredly profit. Either you make a pact with the devil or you don't. That's the deal. ...

"If you want to get in, then let's jump in with both feet, with our eyes wide open. ..."

Kilroy
11-12-2001, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by daver
"Minnesota Attorney General Mike Hatch announces he plans to sue the baseball owners if they attempt to dissolve the Twins...

He must have gotten a look at the revenue the state would be losing if they didn't have those 81 home games a season...

moochpuppy
11-12-2001, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by daver
If, on the other hand, it is viewed as worth saving, then it should be considered a valued part of the cultural landscape, worthy of substantial public financing.

You can bet your ass if they tried to abolish hunting and fishing here you would see money pouring out of the pocket books of Joe Q. Public.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-12-2001, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by moochpuppy
You can bet your ass if they tried to abolish hunting and fishing here you would see money pouring out of the pocket books of Joe Q. Public.

Great point, Mooch. The folks in Minnesota have a slightly different set of priorities than the average American living in an empty prairie like Illinois. I'm reminded of the people in Portland, Oregon who have essentially outlawed urban sprawl by enacting several zoning ordinances. It's caused all sorts of distortions in property values there.

As I recall, they aren't too keen on taxpayer-built sports arenas there, either.

Nellie_Fox
11-12-2001, 02:55 PM
There's a huge difference in providing Department of Natural Resources support for outdoor recreation and building a stadium so that professional athletes and the owners can make even more obscene amounts of money. People making 20-30 thousand a year do not want to be subsidizing people making multiple millions.

This is one case where Jesse Ventura is right; building a new stadium will do nothing to correct the fiscal problems of baseball. In fact, it might make it worse. Adding another couple of teams with sufficient revenue to join in the bidding for free agents will push to cost up even more.

Daver
11-12-2001, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge


Great point, Mooch. The folks in Minnesota have a slightly different set of priorities than the average American living in an empty prairie like Illinois. I'm reminded of the people in Portland, Oregon who have essentially outlawed urban sprawl by enacting several zoning ordinances. It's caused all sorts of distortions in property values there.

As I recall, they aren't too keen on taxpayer-built sports arenas there, either.

They should consider similar laws for portions of central Illinois,some of the best birdhunting in the state is being ruined by subdivisions.
PHG can you tell me where you got that info from so I can research it and send it in my weekly letter to my congressman and state representitive?

PaleHoseGeorge
11-12-2001, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by daver
They should consider similar laws for portions of central Illinois,some of the best birdhunting in the state is being ruined by subdivisions.
PHG can you tell me where you got that info from so I can research it and send it in my weekly letter to my congressman and state representitive?

I remember seeing a feature story on television news about Portland a couple years back. Landowners on the undeveloped side of the anti-sprawl line were sueing for damages because their property was (relatively) worthless compared to property directly across the street. I'm not sure what ever came of that situation. Perhaps the city's website offers some resources on the subject?

Daver
11-12-2001, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Perhaps the city's website offers some resources on the subject?

Thanx PHG,I don't think the Illinois govt. will appreciate it but I do.

moochpuppy
11-13-2001, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
There's a huge difference in providing Department of Natural Resources support for outdoor recreation and building a stadium so that professional athletes and the owners can make even more obscene amounts of money. People making 20-30 thousand a year do not want to be subsidizing people making multiple millions.

This is one case where Jesse Ventura is right; building a new stadium will do nothing to correct the fiscal problems of baseball. In fact, it might make it worse. Adding another couple of teams with sufficient revenue to join in the bidding for free agents will push to cost up even more.

The thing is the owners and professional athletes are not the only ones benefiting. If Minneapolis loses the Twins a lot of local people lose their jobs, the hotel industry suffers, the restaurant industry suffers, etc.

Minnesota already has some of the lowest real estate taxes in the nation. I see nothing wrong with taking out $60 to $70 bucks out of my real estate tax bill. That's money I never see anyway.

And to those people that say they don't want to use their tax dollars toward a stadium........tough. I don't have kids and I'd rather not have my tax dollars going to the schools. Same difference. There are some things in life you can't control and taxes are one of them.

Nellie_Fox
11-13-2001, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by moochpuppy


The thing is the owners and professional athletes are not the only ones benefiting. If Minneapolis loses the Twins a lot of local people lose their jobs, the hotel industry suffers, the restaurant industry suffers, etc.



Economists have shown this to be pretty much a myth. A pro team brings very little new money to a town. The entertainment dollars will be spent on something else in town, not buried in a sock in the backyard.

moochpuppy
11-13-2001, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox


Economists have shown this to be pretty much a myth. A pro team brings very little new money to a town. The entertainment dollars will be spent on something else in town, not buried in a sock in the backyard.

People losing their jobs is no myth my friend.

Iwritecode
11-13-2001, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox


Economists have shown this to be pretty much a myth. A pro team brings very little new money to a town. The entertainment dollars will be spent on something else in town, not buried in a sock in the backyard.

Take the Cubs out of Wrigleyville and see how many jobs are lost.

FarWestChicago
11-13-2001, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode


Take the Cubs out of Wrigleyville and see how many jobs are lost. Yeah, but bartenders can get a job pretty much anywhere.

cheeses_h_rice
11-13-2001, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Iwritecode


Take the Cubs out of Wrigleyville and see how many jobs are lost.

:moron

Casualty number one, right here! If I didn't have the Flubs to write about, I'd be a useless sack of sh*t during the summer.

Nellie_Fox
11-13-2001, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by moochpuppy


People losing their jobs is no myth my friend.

What kind of jobs are you talking about? Those provided by the team generally are of two kinds: The players and executives, which are the good paying jobs, and are not jobs given to local people looking for work. The second kind are the temporary, seasonal, $7-8 jobs such as vendors and cleanup people. Hardly the kind of jobs we should be ponying up $400 million in tax dollars to keep.

If you are talking about the bar and restaurant jobs around the park, again, those dollars will still be spent. They'll be spread around a little more geographically, and the jobs may move, but they won't go away.

PaleHoseGeorge
11-13-2001, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by cheeses_h_rice
:moron
Casualty number one, right here! If I didn't have the Flubs to write about, I'd be a useless sack of sh*t during the summer.

As opposed to the other times in the year?

:)

PaleHoseGeorge
11-13-2001, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox
Economists have shown this to be pretty much a myth. A pro team brings very little new money to a town. The entertainment dollars will be spent on something else in town, not buried in a sock in the backyard.

I've read similar studies from many sources. Most of the jobs created by professional sports teams are entry-level foodservice positions. There really isn't much difference whether people spend their money at Comiskey Park or a neighborhood hot dog joint. The economic benefit to the economy is minimal.

I think the real benefit professional sports gives the host city is national visibility. The telecast of Bears games including that famous view of the Chicago skyline beyond the Soldier Field colonnade are worth a lot of money. Imagine if the city had to pay to get those images on the air. There is another benefit for local politicians, too: job security. NOBODY wants to be the one facing the voters when a pro sports team leaves town. It's not good for the public image--starting with yourself.

Every city wants to be "big league." However, if Green Bay can get a team, any cow pasture qualifies.

FarWestChicago
11-13-2001, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
Every city wants to be "big league." However, if Green Bay can get a team, any cow pasture qualifies. LMAO!! Ain't that the truth!

Bmr31
11-13-2001, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox


Economists have shown this to be pretty much a myth. A pro team brings very little new money to a town. The entertainment dollars will be spent on something else in town, not buried in a sock in the backyard.


Sorry, but that "study" is a bunch of bull****. A pro team ATTRACTS people to a city, to live. I would much rather live in a city that has a professional sports franchise. I believe most sports fans feel the same way. SO WHAT if grannie takes her grandson out to eat. Geez..

Paulwny
11-13-2001, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox


What kind of jobs are you talking about? Those provided by the team generally are of two kinds: The players and executives, which are the good paying jobs, and are not jobs given to local people looking for work. The second kind are the temporary, seasonal, $7-8 jobs such as vendors and cleanup people. Hardly the kind of jobs we should be ponying up $400 million in tax dollars to keep.



I always have a good laugh when politicians mention the jobs which will be created when asking tax payers to fund a stadium.
Build a $400 mil steel plant for a company and you'll have 20,000 jobs paying decent wages.
We cry when the gov't bails out a company which may employ thousands of people but don't see anything wrong in building bigger and better play pens.

Bmr31
11-13-2001, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Nellie_Fox


What kind of jobs are you talking about? Those provided by the team generally are of two kinds: The players and executives, which are the good paying jobs, and are not jobs given to local people looking for work. The second kind are the temporary, seasonal, $7-8 jobs such as vendors and cleanup people. Hardly the kind of jobs we should be ponying up $400 million in tax dollars to keep.

If you are talking about the bar and restaurant jobs around the park, again, those dollars will still be spent. They'll be spread around a little more geographically, and the jobs may move, but they won't go away.


so nellie, if it were up to you, all sports franchises would disban and everyone on the face of the earth would be making $10,000-$100,000 a year?

Nellie_Fox
11-13-2001, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Bmr31



so nellie, if it were up to you, all sports franchises would disban and everyone on the face of the earth would be making $10,000-$100,000 a year?

Where on Earth do you get that conclusion out of what I said? All I said was, once you get past the emotion, there is not a good economic argument for taxing the residents of the state to fund a playpen for multi-millionaires. As was stated above, we don't use tax money to build factories that provide thousands of real, good paying jobs.

Imagine if Ford told the city of St. Paul that they were going to shut down the Ranger plant unless the taxpayers built a new plant for them. I can't imagine anyone who would consider that anything but corporate blackmail, yet the loss of the Ranger plant would have a real economic impact on St. Paul. The loss of the Twins will be almost entirely emotional.

ma-gaga
11-13-2001, 06:56 PM
The construction and manufacturing industries would benefit if a new stadium was built.

I agree with Bmr31, a city with a pro baseball team is much more appealing to live in (as a sports fan) than one without.

Paulwny
11-13-2001, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga


I agree with Bmr31, a city with a pro baseball team is much more appealing to live in (as a sports fan) than one without.

Before Sept. 11, King George was to receive his "OK" to have a new $380 mil play pen built. The most valuable team in the US, funded by NY State taxpayers. I live >500 miles away, and I have to pay for this stadium. If a city wants a new stadium let the local tax payers pay. Why does the rest of a state have to support a stadium that the majority of tax payers will never use?

Daver
11-13-2001, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
If a city wants a new stadium let the local tax payers pay. Why does the rest of a state have to support a stadium that the majority of tax payers will never use?

Because the taxpayers in the rest of the state are not doing what they should,make the politicians work for them,not the other way around.If you oppose it start a letter writing campaign to your state congressmen and whoever else is relative voicing your opinion,have everyone you know do the same thing,it does work,if you are persistent about it.
I write my congressman and local state represenative at least once a week,sometimes more,voicing my opinion on what local issues affect my family and my lifestyle,it is know to the point that I get letters from them informing me of upcoming legislation pending.
Your government is supposed to work for you.
Remember WE the People?


But then again what the hell do I know?

Paulwny
11-13-2001, 08:14 PM
"We play The Star Spangled Banner before every game- You want us to pay taxes too?"---Bill Veeck

A VERY long study about stadiums.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv23n2/coates.pdf

bringbackrobin
11-14-2001, 12:25 AM
Though one should never believe anything that comes out of the Libertarian Cato Institute, there is some truth to this. Public provision of stadiums is corporate welfare, pure and simple.

Giving $400 million to the St.Paul public schools would also increase the standard of living, create jobs, and encourage people from out of state to move to the Twin cities. And whereas building a stadium would help line the pockets of the owners and the players, giving it to the schools would help the teacher's and the students. Which is a better usage of public money? Let the team build its own stadium.

doublem23
11-14-2001, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by bringbackrobin
Let the team build its own stadium.

I like it!

BTW - Welcome to WSI! :)

FarWestChicago
11-14-2001, 12:41 AM
Welcome to WSI, BBR!

I'm not moving to Minnesota. I've been on the Left Coast too long. I'm too much of a wuss now.

ma-gaga
11-14-2001, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago

I'm not moving to Minnesota. I've been on the Left Coast too long. I'm too much of a wuss now.

It doesn't take too long. I have a couple of buddies out in LA. They can't stand the winters anymore. It took all of one winter to lose their Minnesota winter stamina.

Pohlad's grandkid wrote an editorial last saturday in the Minneapolis Star Tribune. In it he described how much grandpa is suffering. Real heartbreaking stuff. Apparently Carl is STILL working 6 days a week trying to provide for his family. Each time little Tommy asks grandpa Carl about the Twins, old Carl starts to cry in frustration. We have no idea how much they are suffering.

Billionare owners suffering because those fans won't help them build a stadium. The Pohlad family just doesn't seem to understand. Their family head is worth over a BILLION dollars.

You have got to be kidding me?!? If you can't stand to be in the MLB buisness, then sell to someone who will. He won't because he has to take care of his family. anyways, it's all too surreal.

Kind of like one of those winter days.

FarWestChicago
11-14-2001, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by ma-gaga


It doesn't take too long. I have a couple of buddies out in LA. They can't stand the winters anymore. It took all of one winter to lose their Minnesota winter stamina. I actually held out for a few years. I would go back to Chicago at X-mas and I could handle it. The California gas brains still think I am tough. They are wearing coats while I'm still coming to work in short sleeved shirts. But, I know the truth. I no longer have any game. I'm retired.

As far as billionaires crying poor mouth goes, what part of shut the **** up don't they understand?

ma-gaga
11-14-2001, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
I actually held out for a few years. I would go back to Chicago at X-mas and I could handle it. The California gas brains still think I am tough. They are wearing coats while I'm still coming to work in short sleeved shirts. But, I know the truth. I no longer have any game. I'm retired.

As far as billionaires crying poor mouth goes, what part of shut the **** up don't they understand?

You still have game. It's all relative.

:sopranos
you like cold? we'll show you cold...

FarWestChicago
11-14-2001, 03:21 AM
LMAO!!

Iwritecode
11-14-2001, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
I actually held out for a few years. I would go back to Chicago at X-mas and I could handle it. The California gas brains still think I am tough. They are wearing coats while I'm still coming to work in short sleeved shirts. But, I know the truth. I no longer have any game. I'm retired.

OK, now that this thread has gotten completely off-topic, I'll add a little more to it. I think I've posted this before, but's it's still pretty good. The sad thing is, I can say 'yes' to most of these.
I like #30 and #31.

You know you're from Illinois if...

1. You've never met any celebrities.

2. Your idea of a traffic jam is ten cars waiting to pass a tractor on the highway.

3. "Vacation" means going to Six Flags.

4. You've seen all the biggest bands ten years after they were popular.

5. You measure distance in minutes.

6. You know several people who have hit a deer.

7. Your school classes were canceled because of cold.

8. Your school classes were canceled because of heat.

9. You've ridden the school bus for an hour each way.

10. You've ever had to switch from "heat" to "A/C" in the same day.

11. You think ethanol makes your truck "run a lot better."

12. You know what's knee-high by the Fourth of July.

13. Stores don't have bags; they have sacks.

14. You see people wear bib overalls at funerals.

15. You see a car running in the parking lot at the store with no one in it no matter what time of the year.

16. You end your sentences with an unnecessary preposition.

Example: "Where's my coat at?" or "If you go to town I wanna go with."

17. All the festivals across the state are named after a fruit, vegetable, grain, or animal.

18. You install security lights on your house and garage and leave both unlocked.

19. You think of the major four food groups as beef, pork, beer, and Jell-O salad with marshmallows.

20. You carry jumper cables in your car.

21. You don't pronounce the "S" in Illinois like the rest of the world.

22. You only own 3 spices: salt, pepper, and ketchup.

23. You design your kid's Halloween costume to fit over a snowsuit.

24. Driving is better in the winter because the potholes are filled with snow.

25. You think everyone from a bigger city has an accent.

26. You think sexy lingerie is tube socks and a flannel nightie.

27. The local paper covers national and international headlines on
one page but requires 6 pages for sports.

28. You think that deer season is a national holiday.

29. You know which leaves make good toilet paper.

30. You find -20 degrees F "a little chilly."

31. You know all 4 seasons: Almost Winter, Winter, Still Winter, and construction.

32. You know if another Illinoisian is from southern, middle, or northern Illinois as soon as they open their mouth.

33. There is a Dairy Queen in every town with a population of 1000 of more.

34. You actually get these jokes and forward them to all your friends from Illinois.

35. You actually like them and use White Castle burgers as a laxative.

Daver
11-14-2001, 07:01 PM
Posted by IWC

28. You think that deer season is a national holiday.

You mean to tell me it isn't?

It's a religous happening at my house.

CLR01
11-15-2001, 02:03 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Iwritecode

You know you're from Illinois if...

1. You've never met any celebrities.


Unless you consider pro athletes clebs, then no


2. Your idea of a traffic jam is ten cars waiting to pass a tractor on the highway.


Sorry never had that problem.


5. You measure distance in minutes.


Doesn't everybody?


10. You've ever had to switch from "heat" to "A/C" in the same day.


That happens almost everyday during spring and fall. Ofcourse it goes heat,AC,and back to heat.


14. You see people wear bib overalls at funerals.


Um never.


15. You see a car running in the parking lot at the store with no one in it no matter what time of the year.


I always leave my car running in parking lots.


18. You install security lights on your house and garage and leave both unlocked.


I know people who do that, even better is the people who always double check to make sure their car doors are locked even though the window is down.


26. You think sexy lingerie is tube socks and a flannel nightie.


Is there anything better?


35. You actually like them and use White Castle burgers as a laxative.


Hey! I had that for dinner.