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32nd&Wallace
05-26-2005, 01:25 PM
One of the things that inspired me to write this was a story about LaRussa in the Bevington thread.

I think Schueler was one of the worst things to happen to this organization. Probably one of the worst GM's in Chicago. A lot of the problems that White Sox had in the mid-1990s and beyond can be atttributable to him.

I don't even think he really cared to go deep into the playoffs in 2000. he never made any trades that made a difference (did we need harold baines? What exactly did charles johnson bring to the team?)

It's shocking to think how lucky we are to have someone like Kenny Williams who is aggressive and does want to win.

I know he "resigned" but does anyone have insider info on why he resigned or if he was pushed out, why he was pushed out?

DaleJRFan
05-26-2005, 01:29 PM
I think Schueler was one of the worst things to happen to this organization. Probably one of the worst GM's in Chicago.

Not to hijack this thread, but wasn't Hawk Harrelson the worst GM in Sox history? I've heard nothing but bad, really bad, things about the Sox when he was GM... I am no Sox historian... just curious if what I have heard is true.

32nd&Wallace
05-26-2005, 01:31 PM
Since Shuler's tenure was longer, I think he was worse

nasox
05-26-2005, 01:33 PM
Since Shuler's tenure was longer, I think he was worse

Hawk hurt us more just for the sheer fact that becuase he came, LaRussa was dismissed.

Irishsox1
05-26-2005, 01:43 PM
Schuler wasn't a good GM, but he wasn't the bottom of the barrell. The guy made some bad decisions and some decent ones. My complaint is that he never went after pitching. The guy actually signed Jamie Navarro as a free-agent! The biggest move he ever made was signing Albert Belle.

As for the 2000 season, again the ptiching was barely hanging on and he brought in Harold Baines and Charles Johnson. Johnson was a great pick-up considereing that Fordyce and Mark Johnson both were bad with the glove and couldn't hit. Johson brought a gold glove and hit some big homeruns for the Sox towards the end of the season, but again, the Sox needed pitching. But, when they got to the playoffs they didn't hit. I blame the team and Jerry Manual for that one.

Frater Perdurabo
05-26-2005, 01:46 PM
The Sox GM's I can remember are Roland Hemond, Hawk, Larry Himes, Schueler and Kenny.

Looking back, I'd say Hemond was the best.

Without exception Hawk simply was the worst.

Himes gave the Sox four straight excellent #1 draft picks: McDowell, Ventura, Thomas, Fernandez. He also turned Baines into in Alvarez and the pre-roided Sosa.

Williams has been the most aggressive, always trying to re-load on the fly to stay competitive. I'd say he's been more of a success than a failure, but his failures have been minimized by the fact that everything he's done so far for this year has turned to gold.

Schueler simply rode Himes' draft choices to a great winning decade. He failed to capitalize on Himes' core. Rather than taking the Sox from "Point B" to "Point C," he kept the Sox at "B" and caused them to rebuild again. His drafts were terrible (in fairness, he was drafting later than Himes did.) He also drafted his daughter and traded Sosa for less than two full seasons of George Bell. All three of the managers he hired were picked when obvious better choices were available. He was lukewarm on Torborg and let him leave. He hired a rather uninspiring Gene Lamont but then fired him too quickly and replaced him with Terry Bevington and stuck with him when LaRussa and Leyland were available.

32nd&Wallace
05-26-2005, 01:53 PM
but does anyone know why he left? or was he fired?

tebman
05-26-2005, 02:05 PM
Not to hijack this thread, but wasn't Hawk Harrelson the worst GM in Sox history? I've heard nothing but bad, really bad, things about the Sox when he was GM... I am no Sox historian... just curious if what I have heard is true.
I think Harrelson was in over his head. He's got good baseball sense and would probably make a great scout or player-development guy. But as a GM he didn't have the management tools. A good GM needs to be a baseball guy, a business executive, a public-relations director, and a cunning negotiator. Hawk, by his own admission, didn't have the biz sense or the patience to handle the PR fallout that the position demands.

I once read an interview with JR where he said that he offered to get Harrelson help for the business part of the job, but Hawk said 'no, thanks,' and resigned instead.

Frater Perdurabo
05-26-2005, 02:17 PM
but does anyone know why he left? or was he fired?

I don't think he was fired or even encouraged to resign. IIRC, he wanted to spend more time with his family. Didn't his wife die of cancer or something like that? Lip? Daver? PHG?

Frater Perdurabo
05-26-2005, 02:19 PM
I once read an interview with JR where he said that he offered to get Harrelson help for the business part of the job, but Hawk said 'no, thanks,' and resigned instead.

That would not surprise me. Everything I've ever read seems to indicate Uncle Jerry is fiercely loyal to the people he hires.

chaerulez
05-26-2005, 02:26 PM
Schuler wasn't a good GM, but he wasn't the bottom of the barrell. The guy made some bad decisions and some decent ones. My complaint is that he never went after pitching. The guy actually signed Jamie Navarro as a free-agent! The biggest move he ever made was signing Albert Belle.

As for the 2000 season, again the ptiching was barely hanging on and he brought in Harold Baines and Charles Johnson. Johnson was a great pick-up considereing that Fordyce and Mark Johnson both were bad with the glove and couldn't hit. Johson brought a gold glove and hit some big homeruns for the Sox towards the end of the season, but again, the Sox needed pitching. But, when they got to the playoffs they didn't hit. I blame the team and Jerry Manual for that one.

JR had I think more of an impact in the Belle signing than Schuler. The story I've heard was JR asked Frank who he wanted the Sox to get- Bonds or Belle and that they would get whoever of the two Frank wanted. Frank said Belle and that was it.

Now before people start attacking Frank for choosing Belle over Bonds. This was Bonds before his roided days and he was a very good player that couldn't get his team past the playoffs (which he always did bad in at the time). Belle was the premier slugger of the game at the time. 9 out of 10 people would've perfered Belle back then over Bonds.

34 Inch Stick
05-26-2005, 02:28 PM
As I remember it Schueler always considered himself a scout type of GM. That turned out to be his major problem as he fell in love with his draft picks and refused to trade them. The draft picks had great minor league numbers and there were many takers for the Sox talent. When those great minor league players did not pan out in the major leagues, the cubbard was bare and some dark years began.

After bottoming out guys like Sirotka, Baldwin, Parque, Maggs and Cameron started to develop. This lead to unexpected and supposedly premature success in 2000.

He again sunk the team in 2000 by declaring the team ahead of schedule and therefore any major trade would be premature. I think this mismanagement is the single biggest lesson KW learned under Schuler. KW learned to win for today because tomorrow's situation is not static and you may have lost your chance.

Schuler seemed more than happy to return to his roots as a scout. He didn't get fired he just kind of tuned out.

mikehuff
05-26-2005, 02:33 PM
JR had I think more of an impact in the Belle signing than Schuler. The story I've heard was JR asked Frank who he wanted the Sox to get- Bonds or Belle and that they would get whoever of the two Frank wanted. Frank said Belle and that was it.

Nice choice between a couple of jerkoffs.
I couldn't imagine Bonds on this team. I hate him so much that I couldn't fathom rooting for him.

pudge
05-26-2005, 02:37 PM
JR had I think more of an impact in the Belle signing than Schuler. The story I've heard was JR asked Frank who he wanted the Sox to get- Bonds or Belle and that they would get whoever of the two Frank wanted. Frank said Belle and that was it.

Now before people start attacking Frank for choosing Belle over Bonds. This was Bonds before his roided days and he was a very good player that couldn't get his team past the playoffs (which he always did bad in at the time). Belle was the premier slugger of the game at the time. 9 out of 10 people would've perfered Belle back then over Bonds.

Also, they would have had to trade for Bonds, whereas they were able to sign Belle as a FA.

Frater Perdurabo
05-26-2005, 02:46 PM
Nice choice between a couple of jerkoffs.
I couldn't imagine Bonds on this team. I hate him so much that I couldn't fathom rooting for him.

Did you hate Bonds in 1997? Would you have hated him as much if he put up record numbers as a member of the White Sox?

Just for kicks, think about a 3-4-5 of Frank, Bonds and Ventura. Think that might have scored some runs?

Remember, when it comes to the Sox, I follow the WSI motto of "totally petty, utterly biased and completely unobjective."

The Anti-Cub
05-26-2005, 02:58 PM
Ron Schuler gave us a core group of players that enabled Kenny to trade for other players. Without that homegrown talent cultivated under Schuler, we wouldn't have Podzilla or Garcia.

Hitmen77
05-26-2005, 03:18 PM
Schuler wasn't a good GM, but he wasn't the bottom of the barrell. The guy made some bad decisions and some decent ones. My complaint is that he never went after pitching. The guy actually signed Jamie Navarro as a free-agent! The biggest move he ever made was signing Albert Belle.

Not only did he sign Navarro, but IIRC, he could have signed ROGER CLEMENS instead of Navarro.

FredManrique
05-26-2005, 04:05 PM
Not only did he sign Navarro, but IIRC, he could have signed ROGER CLEMENS instead of Navarro.

Or he could have even kept Kevin Tapani, who contributed more to the Cubs for maybe a third of the salary.

Some notable Schueler memories:

1. Failing to trade for badly needed pitching when the Sox were in contention during the 1996 season.
2. Dumping Roberto Hernandez, Wilson Alvarez, and Danny Darwin to the SAME TEAM just after Robin Ventura rushed back from an injury to be on the field for September during the 1997 season.
3. Later patting himself on the back for that trade, saying it put the Sox in position to compete in 2000. Um, no. Foulke and Howry were good, but what about Mike Caruso, Brian Manning and Lorenzo Barcelo? Where were they?
4. Keeping Bevington. I saw that numbskull call in Foulke once to intentionally walk a guy, then bring in someone else. Idiot.
5. Not trading 'prospects' such as Scott Ruffcorn, Rodney Bolton and Chris Clemons.
6. Replacing Lance Johnson with Darren Lewis.
7. Replacing Julio Franco with Chris Sabo.
8. Just generally letting the team fall apart after 1994.
9. Trading Melido Perez for Steve Sax.

Good things:

1. Trading Matt Karchner for John Garland.
2. Stockpiling right-handed hitters (Belle, Konerko, Lee, Maggs, Rowand, etc)

I just he wasn't all bad, but Schueler's tenure was marked by a refusal to trade bad prospects for major leaguers, and a tendency to trade major leaguers for bad prospects.

I'll take Kenny over him any day of the week.

Corlose 15
05-26-2005, 04:09 PM
The feeling I got from Shueler was that he never cared enough to make the big trade or sign the big free agent. Other than Belle of course. My point is that I never got the feeling that he really wanted to win. Having KW after him is a breath of fresh air.

lowesox
05-26-2005, 04:18 PM
I don't even think he really cared to go deep into the playoffs in 2000. he never made any trades that made a difference


This is funny to me because in a recent thread about trading BMac about a zillion WSIers came on and said that they didn't think we should make any major trades this year. According to them, everything is perfect already. Seems to me 2000 was a very similar situation as this year. I wonder how many of them felt the same way then.

thepaulbowski
05-26-2005, 04:24 PM
This is funny to me because in a recent thread about trading BMac about a zillion WSIers came on and said that they didn't think we should make any major trades this year. According to them, everything is perfect already. Seems to me 2000 was a very similar situation as this year. I wonder how many of them felt the same way then.

How is this year similar to 2000? :?: Each pitcher on the staff had a career year in 2000, basically never to be heard of again. Each pitcher on the staff this year (except for Garland who has always had the talent) is a well established pitcher. The only thing that is similar between now & 2000 is the Sox got off to red hot start both years.

maurice
05-26-2005, 04:29 PM
Schueler's tenure was marked by a refusal to trade bad prospects for major leaguers, and a tendency to trade major leaguers for bad prospects.

Well put.

Himes "took the team from Point A to Point B," and left a very talented organization behind.
Schu was hired to "take the team from Point B to Point C," but instead took the team right back to Point A, leaving behind a barren organization filled with broken players and a crappy manager.

FredManrique
05-26-2005, 04:58 PM
This is funny to me because in a recent thread about trading BMac about a zillion WSIers came on and said that they didn't think we should make any major trades this year. According to them, everything is perfect already. Seems to me 2000 was a very similar situation as this year. I wonder how many of them felt the same way then.

We were starving for pitching by August 2000... remember Ken Hill? Remember Sean Lowe starting? A guy like McCarthy would have been starting in 2000, and guy like him (Garland) actually was in the second half of the season.

This year is different because we have enough starters to compete without a big league contribution from our best prospect. I'd rather keep McCarthy, but if KW could trade him for a significant player who could contribute for a couple years (not a rental), I'd be open to it.

Malgar 12
05-26-2005, 05:20 PM
Or he could have even kept Kevin Tapani, who contributed more to the Cubs for maybe a third of the salary.

Some notable Schueler memories:

1. Failing to trade for badly needed pitching when the Sox were in contention during the 1996 season.
2. Dumping Roberto Hernandez, Wilson Alvarez, and Danny Darwin to the SAME TEAM just after Robin Ventura rushed back from an injury to be on the field for September during the 1997 season.
3. Later patting himself on the back for that trade, saying it put the Sox in position to compete in 2000. Um, no. Foulke and Howry were good, but what about Mike Caruso, Brian Manning and Lorenzo Barcelo? Where were they?
4. Keeping Bevington. I saw that numbskull call in Foulke once to intentionally walk a guy, then bring in someone else. Idiot.
5. Not trading 'prospects' such as Scott Ruffcorn, Rodney Bolton and Chris Clemons.
6. Replacing Lance Johnson with Darren Lewis.
7. Replacing Julio Franco with Chris Sabo.
8. Just generally letting the team fall apart after 1994.
9. Trading Melido Perez for Steve Sax.

Good things:

1. Trading Matt Karchner for John Garland.
2. Stockpiling right-handed hitters (Belle, Konerko, Lee, Maggs, Rowand, etc)

I just he wasn't all bad, but Schueler's tenure was marked by a refusal to trade bad prospects for major leaguers, and a tendency to trade major leaguers for bad prospects.

I'll take Kenny over him any day of the week.

To be fair you should add Snyder and Navarro for Cal Eldred and Jose Valentin to your good list. What a steal, even if Eldred only held together for half a season!

slavko
05-26-2005, 05:59 PM
To be fair you should add Snyder and Navarro for Cal Eldred and Jose Valentin to your good list. What a steal, even if Eldred only held together for half a season!

Bob Wickman, whom we also gave away in the Sax trade, is still closing for the Indians. A few 2000 season items: the pitching staff was totally broken down by the end of the season. Catcher Fordyce could hit, not field. Marc Johnson could field, not hit. Either or both had better rapport with the pitchers and thus could handle them better than Charles Johnson. Not to mention the bad effect on clubhouse chemistry of trading the popular Fordyce. Now I just reminded myself that Marc Johnson was left off the post-season roster in favor of Josh Paul "because Paul could pinch run." (Manuel's words.)

Daver
05-26-2005, 06:03 PM
IIRC Ron wanted a vote of confidence from JR after having final say in the draft revoked from him after the 99 season, he didn't get it and resigned.

Good riddance, Ron Schueler was a slug and a terrible judge of talent, nor did he possess the ability to let his scouts advise of of where that talent should play. There is also his memorable first round picks of Mark Johnson and Jason Dallero.

He also made the wise move of drafting his own daughter.

Lip Man 1
05-26-2005, 07:29 PM
I echo Daver's comments and yes Uncle Jerry asked Frank who he wanted and Frank said Albert. Now in fairness Belle put up huge numbers, he did everything he was asked to do on the field.

Also you folks forgot Scheuler's best trade...his first one, Christmas Eve 1990. Gets Tim Raines from Montreal for Barry Jones.

And yes his wife did die of cancer.

Lip

veeter
05-26-2005, 07:36 PM
I thought Schuler was in a tough position in 2000. Yes, the team won the division but they were really ahead of schedule getting there. The cry was to trade Garland, Wells, or any other prospect for veteran pitching. But as I recall there wasn't much out there. In fact I remember some pea brained scribe suggesting Schuler trade Garland AND Wells for Pete Harnisch. I thought standing pat, at least with top of the line prospects, was the right thing to do. Heck we all figured they'd be back the next year anyway.

mike squires
05-26-2005, 08:03 PM
Nice choice between a couple of jerkoffs.
I couldn't imagine Bonds on this team. I hate him so much that I couldn't fathom rooting for him.

My sentiments exactly. Imagine if that scenerio would have happened. Can you imagine this team allready a second team in a two city town getting all of this negative publicity. No thanks. Albert did a great job while he was here and healthy.

mike squires
05-26-2005, 08:08 PM
One of the things that inspired me to write this was a story about LaRussa in the Bevington thread.

I think Schueler was one of the worst things to happen to this organization. Probably one of the worst GM's in Chicago. A lot of the problems that White Sox had in the mid-1990s and beyond can be atttributable to him.

I don't even think he really cared to go deep into the playoffs in 2000. he never made any trades that made a difference (did we need harold baines? What exactly did charles johnson bring to the team?)

It's shocking to think how lucky we are to have someone like Kenny Williams who is aggressive and does want to win.

I know he "resigned" but does anyone have insider info on why he resigned or if he was pushed out, why he was pushed out?

Harold didn't do too much while with us in 2000 but was one of the few that did something in the playoffs when he was able to play. I remember him legging out a double, just beating out a sac fly at third and again at home all on 2 hurt knees.

clee-hegone
05-27-2005, 01:22 AM
if we would have gotten bonds a) he would still be here, and b) carlos lee would be our third baseman not joe crede, as el caballo was originally a 3rd baseman until he joined our system. imagine:
1 rowand cf
2 iguchi 2b
3 konerko 1b
4 bonds lf
5 lee 3b
6 pierzynski c
7 everett dh
8 dye rf
9 uribe ss

Hangar18
05-27-2005, 11:19 AM
if we would have gotten bonds a) he would still be here, and b) carlos lee would be our third baseman not joe crede, as el caballo was originally a 3rd baseman until he joined our system. imagine:
1 rowand cf
2 iguchi 2b
3 konerko 1b
4 bonds lf
5 lee 3b
6 pierzynski c
7 everett dh
8 dye rf
9 uribe ss

YES, but look at all the players we could get if we got Rid of Bonds heavy salary

BainesHOF
05-27-2005, 11:22 AM
Schueler and Gallas: Two arrogant company men who consistently failed.

Hitmen77
05-27-2005, 11:24 AM
This is funny to me because in a recent thread about trading BMac about a zillion WSIers came on and said that they didn't think we should make any major trades this year. According to them, everything is perfect already. Seems to me 2000 was a very similar situation as this year. I wonder how many of them felt the same way then.

How is opposing trading away Brandon McCarthy the same as not supporting any major trades?:?:

FredManrique
05-27-2005, 04:34 PM
if we would have gotten bonds a) he would still be here, and b) carlos lee would be our third baseman not joe crede, as el caballo was originally a 3rd baseman until he joined our system. imagine:
1 rowand cf
2 iguchi 2b
3 konerko 1b
4 bonds lf
5 lee 3b
6 pierzynski c
7 everett dh
8 dye rf
9 uribe ss

Then every slow roller down the left field line would go for a double. Have you seen Bonds in the field the last couple years? Can you imagine Lee at third?

maurice
05-27-2005, 05:11 PM
There's a reason the Sox moved Lee from 3B to LF. The reason is not named "Crede."

Daver
05-27-2005, 05:14 PM
There's a reason the Sox moved Lee from 3B to LF. The reason is not named "Crede."

The reason is named E-6.

Cubbiesuck13
05-27-2005, 05:19 PM
The reason is named E-6.

or E-5.

tstrike2000
05-27-2005, 06:26 PM
Schueler and Gallas: Two arrogant company men who consistently failed.

Ron Schueler clearly earned the named Clueless Schue for a reason, but the Sox did win two division titles under his tenure. With Williams being the most aggresive GM we've had, we'll see if that can finally amount to the division title that's eluded us.

HawksBiggestFan
05-28-2005, 08:41 PM
I always wondered why Schuler never got any offers from other clubs. I think he is a good GM. Pretty underrated too.