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View Full Version : Keeping Konerko is essential


swingkid02
05-26-2005, 02:01 PM
I keep reading that everyone thinks that we're going to get rid of Konerko.

Do you really think that a team that has to fight for fans and attendance would get rid of the last remaining fan favorite on this team?

We got rid of Mags... thank god he went out like a bum, or else everyone would have been horribly pissed, Lee never became a huge fan favorite because he was outshined by Paulie and Mags and also because he had no personality.

Fans hate Crede (BTW IMHO if we trade him we will kick ourselves down the road). The Buerhle Garland and the other pitchers are only seen once every five days.

If we want to keep fans... and hopefully gain some new young ones, there has to be a player on the team that people want to see when and if they attend. Right now that is Konerko... we can't get rid of him!

Frater Perdurabo
05-26-2005, 02:06 PM
It should be pretty clear "real" Sox fans support a winning team. To me, who puts on the uniform is meaningless as long as they win.

CubsfansareDRUNK
05-26-2005, 02:08 PM
I like konerko because he holds up some team chemistry

LVSoxFan
05-26-2005, 02:10 PM
You're an aPaulogist, how dare you suggest something like this? Konerko is a clubhouse cancer.

maurice
05-26-2005, 02:11 PM
Do you really think that a team that has to fight for fans and attendance would get rid of the last remaining fan favorite on this team?

:hurt
*cough*

:burly
*cough*

:rowand
*cough*

:pods:
*cough*

Rocky Soprano
05-26-2005, 02:12 PM
I like konerko because he holds up some team chemistry

How does he do that? Every year he always runs his mouth.

I like Konerko, but to me he doesnt seem like the best "team" player.

Paulwny
05-26-2005, 02:12 PM
Winning and continuous winning and multiple playoff appearances and possibly a ws victory will bring people to the games in droves.

Randar68
05-26-2005, 02:13 PM
I like konerko because he holds up some team chemistry

What, does he tell everyone about Exothermic reactions and cook over a bunson burner?

CubsfansareDRUNK
05-26-2005, 02:13 PM
remember that commercial

swingkid02
05-26-2005, 02:14 PM
You're telling me that "real" fans don't have favorite players. Also... I love being a "real" sox fan now. I've been one since I learned to play baseball. However, "real" fans are built not born. You have to follow a team for a reason until the team itself is what you root for.

I'm not talking about being a fan of a field or of the area around a stadium like many Chicago fans deem the definition of a fan.

But I would like my team to gain some respect in Chicago and nationally someday. The younger generation needs to follow the Sox for more than just a winning record. It's tough to get passionate without knowing your players for more that a year or two.

Rocky Soprano
05-26-2005, 02:14 PM
Do you really think that a team that has to fight for fans and attendance would get rid of the last remaining fan favorite on this team?

If we want to keep fans... and hopefully gain some new young ones, there has to be a player on the team that people want to see when and if they attend. Right now that is Konerko... we can't get rid of him!

The last one? Please I've been a Sox fan for all of my life and Konerko is nowhere near the top of my favorite Sox players.

I like him, but he is not Pujols!

Konerko can be replaced!

Randar68
05-26-2005, 02:14 PM
I keep reading that everyone thinks that we're going to get rid of Konerko.

Do you really think that a team that has to fight for fans and attendance would get rid of the last remaining fan favorite on this team?

We got rid of Mags... thank god he went out like a bum, or else everyone would have been horribly pissed, Lee never became a huge fan favorite because he was outshined by Paulie and Mags and also because he had no personality.

Fans hate Crede (BTW IMHO if we trade him we will kick ourselves down the road). The Buerhle Garland and the other pitchers are only seen once every five days.

If we want to keep fans... and hopefully gain some new young ones, there has to be a player on the team that people want to see when and if they attend. Right now that is Konerko... we can't get rid of him!

:chunks

BaseballTonyght
05-26-2005, 02:17 PM
It should be pretty clear "real" Sox fans support a winning team. To me, who puts on the uniform is meaningless as long as they win.

And then some of us are so helplessly loyal that we even support the losing teams. Which have unfortunately been the majority over the past 105 years.

Flight #24
05-26-2005, 02:17 PM
You're telling me that "real" fans don't have favorite players. Also... I love being a "real" sox fan now. I've been one since I learned to play baseball. However, "real" fans are built not born. You have to follow a team for a reason until the team itself is what you root for.

I'm not talking about being a fan of a field or of the area around a stadium like many Chicago fans deem the definition of a fan.

But I would like my team to gain some respect in Chicago and nationally someday. The younger generation needs to follow the Sox for more than just a winning record. It's tough to get passionate without knowing your players for more that a year or two.

Yes, it's far far better to overpay an average player so that fans have as many recognizable players as possible to get passionate about. The White Sox are still smarting from the loss of Jose Valentin, Royce Clayton, and Jaime Navarro.

Winning be damned, it's all about knowing the name on the back of the jersey!!!

swingkid02
05-26-2005, 02:17 PM
for the guy with the cold up there....


Thomas is a fan favorite right now... how many times have you heard Sox fans complain about him. Probably even yourself.

Rowand is becoming a fan favorite I'll give you that one.

Pods... well he's been here less than a year.

Pitching.... like I said.... once every five games.

Flight #24
05-26-2005, 02:18 PM
I keep reading that everyone thinks that we're going to get rid of Konerko.

Do you really think that a team that has to fight for fans and attendance would get rid of the last remaining fan favorite on this team?

We got rid of Mags... thank god he went out like a bum, or else everyone would have been horribly pissed, Lee never became a huge fan favorite because he was outshined by Paulie and Mags and also because he had no personality.

Fans hate Crede (BTW IMHO if we trade him we will kick ourselves down the road). The Buerhle Garland and the other pitchers are only seen once every five days.

If we want to keep fans... and hopefully gain some new young ones, there has to be a player on the team that people want to see when and if they attend. Right now that is Konerko... we can't get rid of him!

It's OK Mrs. Konerko, I'm sure your son will be just fine. Don't worry.

swingkid02
05-26-2005, 02:19 PM
I'm not saying to keep Konerko at the cost of winning.

While his average numbers are not great this year, he leads the team in RBI Runs and HR

Flight #24
05-26-2005, 02:20 PM
I'm not saying to keep Konerko at the cost of winning.

While his average numbers are not great this year, he leads the team in RBI Runs and HR

And his BA with RISP should tell you that that's more a function of the guys in front of him than it is his own performance. Were AJ Pierzynski in that slot in the order, he'd probably have more RBIs (although probably not as many HR).

Deadguy
05-26-2005, 02:21 PM
for the guy with the cold up there....


Thomas is a fan favorite right now... how many times have you heard Sox fans complain about him. Probably even yourself.

Rowand is becoming a fan favorite I'll give you that one.

Pods... well he's been here less than a year.

Pitching.... like I said.... once every five games.

You are either unbelievably naive and clueless as to the number of pointless arguments that are going to be spawned from your ridiculous post, or we've just been trolled.

I don't know if I can give you enough credit to consider the latter.....

BaseballTonyght
05-26-2005, 02:22 PM
It's OK Mrs. Konerko, I'm sure your son will be just fine. Don't worry.

:thumbsup:

I think the only real problem a lot of people have with Konerko is he has a horrible tendancy to stick his foot in his mouth to the media. At least, that's my only problem with him.

Paulwny
05-26-2005, 02:23 PM
Fox, Aparicio, Pierce, Baines, Fisk, Ventura , some I've missed, all fan favorites, I/we all got over crying about their loss.
It's team over individual.

swingkid02
05-26-2005, 02:23 PM
I gotta run... but before I go...

I don't think it would be a good move to get rid of Konerko.

I think that Sox fans should be a little less worried about how to get rid of players on a team that has the best record in baseball and a little more worried about getting people out to the park. I'm sick of going to games with a half full stadium.

Randar68
05-26-2005, 02:26 PM
I think that Sox fans should be a little less worried about how to get rid of players on a team that has the best record in baseball and a little more worried about getting people out to the park. I'm sick of going to games with a half full stadium.

You're right, we should never be concerned about ways to improve the team...

a .235 hitting #4 hitter who annually leads the galaxy in rally-killing GIDP's is essential on a championship calber team...

Beat it Pauly.

Rocky Soprano
05-26-2005, 02:27 PM
I gotta run... but before I go...

I don't think it would be a good move to get rid of Konerko.

I think that Sox fans should be a little less worried about how to get rid of players on a team that has the best record in baseball and a little more worried about getting people out to the park. I'm sick of going to games with a half full stadium.

:dtroll: :dtroll: :dtroll:

MUScholar21
05-26-2005, 02:28 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I would (brace yourself Hangar) give up Paully in a heartbeat for a Derrick Lee-type 1B. Konerko's anti-speed is brutal to watch, he is prone to prolonged slumps, and is only an average fielder. Konerko, like Mags, is probably my favorite player. However, there are a lot of teams who would love him if he can get his value back to where it was this off-season. Unfortunately, him being a free agent, the White Sox face a double-edged sword:
1) Sign him to a fairly large contract and commit yourself to him or lose him with nothing in return
2) Trade him by the July 31 deadline, and risk ruining team chemistry and fan support by getting rid of the face of the team and a vocal leader in the clubhouse.

Personally, I don't like either of these options. But if we could get a Lee-type, all around, Gold Glove first basemen, I'm supporting it all the way. Of course, Uncle Jerry probably has a thing for Lyle Overbay, in which case we are all screwed.

By the way, whoever said that we will regret trading Joe Crede in a few years must be Crede's agent. We've been hearing this for 3 years now, and would you look at that, Crede is still hefting around a lofty .238 average as of today. Yep, never going to be able to replace that.

Frater Perdurabo
05-26-2005, 02:31 PM
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I would (brace yourself Hangar) give up Paully in a heartbeat for a Derrick Lee-type 1B. Konerko's anti-speed is brutal to watch, he is prone to prolonged slumps, and is only an average fielder. Konerko, like Mags, is probably my favorite player. However, there are a lot of teams who would love him if he can get his value back to where it was this off-season. Unfortunately, him being a free agent, the White Sox face a double-edged sword:
1) Sign him to a fairly large contract and commit yourself to him or lose him with nothing in return
2) Trade him by the July 31 deadline, and risk ruining team chemistry and fan support by getting rid of the face of the team and a vocal leader in the clubhouse.

Personally, I don't like either of these options. But if we could get a Lee-type, all around, Gold Glove first basemen, I'm supporting it all the way. Of course, Uncle Jerry probably has a thing for Lyle Overbay, in which case we are all screwed.

Except Lee makes boneheaded baserunning blunders when he's faked out by the opposing shortstop.
:D:

Sounds like you are describing Todd Helton.
:D:

DaleJRFan
05-26-2005, 02:32 PM
Keeping Konerko is essential

Having the cleanup hitter batting higher than 230 is essential. Having the cleanup hitter batting better than 200 with RISP is essential. Having a "team leader" not calling out players in the press is essential.

Konerko is expendable. KW has proved that he is not afraid to move players regardless of their standing with the fanbase. If Konerko can go at the deadline, move him, get something for him. If he continues all season as he has begun the season, a move WILL be made for a REAL cleanup hitter.

jshanahanjr
05-26-2005, 02:35 PM
The Sox will sign him because it's a good marriage. Pauly likes playing here and most of the fans love him. He's not going to pull a Pay-Rod or Maggs and try to get a max deal for his services. Maybe he can sign his new deal in Grant Park during the World Series celebration?

mikehuff
05-26-2005, 02:37 PM
I'll put my same response in this thread too..

Winning a championship should be the most important thing. If giving up a streaky hitter that people like wins us a World Series, then I don't see a problem with that.
I think that having a fan favorite is nice too, but he's done nothing to demand he stays on this team. It's the team that I'm concerned about.
Do you think fans will protest if the Sox are in deep in the playoffs just because .235 hitting Konerko isn't on the team anymore?
If this organization gets to be more concerned with filling seats then winning, then you know what we become... that's right... the big red "C"

SpammySosa
05-26-2005, 02:39 PM
I am all for being sentimental,but not at the expense of fielding the best team possible.Paulie has had his moments,but if we had the opportunity to upgrade his position-Paulie,thanks for the memories!

1951Campbell
05-26-2005, 02:48 PM
Um...flaw in some of the thinking here:

If Paulie really sucks as badly as many believe, then what are we going to trade him for? A bag of balls? Do folks really think that a .235 average and a boatload of rally-killing GIDPs goes unnoticed by other GMs? I mean, come on...you can't say how bad he is and then say you could get a "Derrick Lee-type" for him. Maybe we're just stuck with him.

MUScholar21
05-26-2005, 02:48 PM
Except Lee makes boneheaded baserunning blunders when he's faked out by the opposing shortstop.
:D:

Sounds like you are describing Todd Helton.
:D:

Helton's contract is through the roof, and Uncle Jerry will NEVER pick up the tab on that one. Colorado would have to eat a huge amount of it, which I doubt they will do. He'd be nice, but look at what Jayson Stark had to say about Helton:

Todd Helton will be a Rockie as long as he wants to be. He's signed through 2011 at humoungous dollars ($16.6M a year, starting next year, for the next five years, and then a jump to $19.1M and then a buyout of nearly $5M. That's over $100 million. AND he has a total no-trade. AND he's maybe the most popular active athlete in Colorado. So unless he wants to force his way out, he isn't going anywhere. And there are no indications he'll do that.

Stark is no mediot, so I'll listen to what he has to say. And don't boil Lee's career down to this past weekend. The Cubs were scuffling trying to keep up with the speed of the game that the White Sox dictated to them. Lee is not as poor of a baserunner as it looked.

MUScholar21
05-26-2005, 02:49 PM
Um...flaw in some of the thinking here:

If Paulie really sucks as badly as many believe, then what are we going to trade him for? A bag of balls? Do folks really think that a .235 average and a boatload of rally-killing GIDPs goes unnoticed by other GMs? I mean, come on...you can't say how bad he is and then say you could get a "Derrick Lee-type" for him. Maybe we're just stuck with him.

I said I would like a Derrick Lee-type, and I also said he needs to get his trade value up to where it was this off-season.

Deadguy
05-26-2005, 02:50 PM
Um...flaw in some of the thinking here:

If Paulie really sucks as badly as many believe, then what are we going to trade him for? A bag of balls? Do folks really think that a .235 average and a boatload of rally-killing GIDPs goes unnoticed by other GMs? I mean, come on...you can't say how bad he is and then say you could get a "Derrick Lee-type" for him. Maybe we're just stuck with him.

The Free Agency fairy will come in November to take him away forever.

AZChiSoxFan
05-26-2005, 02:51 PM
What, does he tell everyone about Exothermic reactions and cook over a bunson burner?

Classic!!:)

Palehose13
05-26-2005, 02:53 PM
:hurt
*cough*

:burly
*cough*

:rowand
*cough*

:pods:
*cough*

:iguchi:

Hey maurice...don't forget the Asian Invasion!

Palehose13
05-26-2005, 02:54 PM
Um...flaw in some of the thinking here:

If Paulie really sucks as badly as many believe, then what are we going to trade him for? A bag of balls? Do folks really think that a .235 average and a boatload of rally-killing GIDPs goes unnoticed by other GMs? I mean, come on...you can't say how bad he is and then say you could get a "Derrick Lee-type" for him. Maybe we're just stuck with him.

Should have traded him when his stock was high...in the off season.

AZChiSoxFan
05-26-2005, 02:55 PM
And his BA with RISP should tell you that that's more a function of the guys in front of him than it is his own performance. Were AJ Pierzynski in that slot in the order, he'd probably have more RBIs (although probably not as many HR).

WRONG!!! AJ is batting .182 with RISP.

SpammySosa
05-26-2005, 02:56 PM
Should have traded him when his stock was high...in the off season.

And have to read all the griping on here about it?Too high a price to pay!:wink:

Palehose13
05-26-2005, 02:58 PM
I gotta run... but before I go...

I don't think it would be a good move to get rid of Konerko.

I think that Sox fans should be a little less worried about how to get rid of players on a team that has the best record in baseball and a little more worried about getting people out to the park. I'm sick of going to games with a half full stadium.

:?: ***??? Did I just get a job in Ticket sales with the Sox?

Flight #24
05-26-2005, 03:00 PM
WRONG!!! AJ is batting .182 with RISP.

:redface: Serves me right for not checking stats first.

Still, the point remains. There are many players who hit better than .230 with RISP. Paulie's RBI totals in and of themselves do not indicate that he's a great player.

Frater Perdurabo
05-26-2005, 03:01 PM
Should have traded him when his stock was high...in the off season.

Something tells me PHG was right. I think Kenny wanted to trade him but couldn't get the same package he got for Lee. But from the standpoint of the whole picture, it may have worked out for the best.

Remember, Omar Vizquel was "Option A." If Kenny had signed Vizquel, I don't think the Lee-Pods deal would have happened. Kenny wouldn't have had as great a need for a leadoff hitter and might have traded Konerko instead for other help. The whole offseason would have been completely different (no Pods, probably no AJ or Iguchi, either) and I don't think the Sox would be playing .700 ball if the dominoes had fallen that way.

Palehose13
05-26-2005, 03:01 PM
:redface: Serves me right for not checking stats first.

Still, the point remains. There are many players who hit better than .230 with RISP. Paulie's RBI totals in and of themselves do not indicate that he's a great player.

Nope...they indicate how often the guys ahead of him get on base. :wink:

1951Campbell
05-26-2005, 03:02 PM
Should have traded him when his stock was high...in the off season.

Hey, hindsight and all. Now, we wait for his trade value to go up. Which means he'd have to start playing quite well. Which means...uh, why would we trade someone playing well again?

I know, I know. Save money.

MUScholar21
05-26-2005, 03:05 PM
Hey, hindsight and all. Now, we wait for his trade value to go up. Which means he'd have to start playing quite well. Which means...uh, why would we trade someone playing well again?

I know, I know. Save money.

Forget save money, our organization has an institutional fear of losing players to free agency without getting something in return.

samram
05-26-2005, 03:08 PM
Hey, hindsight and all. Now, we wait for his trade value to go up. Which means he'd have to start playing quite well. Which means...uh, why would we trade someone playing well again?

I know, I know. Save money.

The deal is, as you said before, the Sox are stuck with him. The team can't get much for a guy hitting .235 and the team shouldn't trade a guy if he starts getting that average up around .270, since he would be on fire. Hell, the team is playing .700 ball, I don't think it's a desperate situation anyway. They seem to be ok with his hitting .235.

Baby Fisk
05-26-2005, 03:08 PM
remember that commercial
:o:
If you are talking about last year's commercial where Konerko talks about team chemistry, bear in mind that he was RECITING LINES THAT SOMEONE WROTE FOR HIM. Little dude, commercials are MADE UP. You don't really believe that Rowand met the devil, do you?

samram
05-26-2005, 03:09 PM
Winning and continuous winning and multiple playoff appearances and possibly a ws victory will bring people to the games in droves.

No no- I've been told that making amends with the Caray family will bring people back to the park. That's the "magic elixir" to put the Sox back on top.

BaseballTonyght
05-26-2005, 03:12 PM
The FOPK have officially begun having doubts about drafting their charter on this day.

seanpmurphy
05-26-2005, 03:14 PM
:o:
If you are talking about last year's commercial where Konerko talks about team chemistry, bear in mind that he was RECITING LINES THAT SOMEONE WROTE FOR HIM. Little dude, commercials are MADE UP. You don't really believe that Rowand met the devil, do you?

Wait, he didn't meet the Devil?? What next, you're gonna tell me there's no Santa Claus?:D:

Baby Fisk
05-26-2005, 03:14 PM
No no- I've been told that making amends with the Caray family will bring people back to the park. That's the "magic elixir" to put the Sox back on top.
:rolling:
Don't forget the Veecks. Jerry Reinsdorf has to publicly apologize to Bill Veeck and his descendants, then be whipped naked in the streets and driven out of town, right Lip?

SpammySosa
05-26-2005, 03:14 PM
:o:
You don't really believe that Rowand met the devil, do you?

Not to hijack the thread,but that has got to be THE WORST Sox commercial I have ever seen! Where is Two By Four looking for feedback when you need him?:redneck

Frater Perdurabo
05-26-2005, 03:15 PM
If he plays well for the rest of the year, it's good for the Sox because it's likely to get them deep into October and/or increase his trade value and the Sox ability to get something good for him in a possible (but not likely) midseason deal. Also, he'd be likely to get big offers from other teams this offseason. The Sox can offer him arbitration. If he leaves, they will get draft picks.

If he plays well, it's a win-win for all Sox fans, whether they are FOGIDPK/APaulogists or Walnuts "hatahs."

If he blows the rest of the year, chances are he won't be back anyway, because some other idiot GM will be willing to overpay for him.

The only thing the Sox MUST NOT DO is sign Walnuts to a fat extension during this season.

seanpmurphy
05-26-2005, 03:15 PM
Not to hijack the thread,but that has got to be THE WORST Sox commercial I have ever seen! Where is Two By Four looking for feedback when you need him?:redneck

No way that Sox commercial was awesomely dumb! Even my mom liked it.

Baby Fisk
05-26-2005, 03:18 PM
Not to hijack the thread,but that has got to be THE WORST Sox commercial I have ever seen! Where is Two By Four looking for feedback when you need him?:redneck

It is bad. Baseball and Death are not a good mix.

SpammySosa
05-26-2005, 03:21 PM
It is bad. Baseball and Death are not a good mix.

Any commercial that makes those Red Roof Inn ads look entertaining has got to be bad. "Muuuuuuuuuuuulti-tasking!!!!"

Flight #24
05-26-2005, 03:25 PM
Hey, hindsight and all. Now, we wait for his trade value to go up. Which means he'd have to start playing quite well. Which means...uh, why would we trade someone playing well again?

I know, I know. Save money.

Or because you know that despite a hot streak, Paulie's still inconsistent and hardly a franchise type of player.

Or because you can get a better player than "hot Paul".

And even if he's playing poorly, a team might trade for him for a number of reasons: They might trade a more expensive player or one on a longer contract. They might also think that they can improve his flaws. Or they might be in position to make him the 2d or 3d best hitter on their team, in which case he'd fit well.

Baby Fisk
05-26-2005, 03:25 PM
Any commercial that makes those Red Roof Inn ads look entertaining has got to be bad. "Muuuuuuuuuuuulti-tasking!!!!"

I like that guy. He's a total goof. :redface:

wdelaney72
05-26-2005, 03:29 PM
Back to the topic at hand.

Konerko is not even close to earning the value of his current contract. I'm not terribly concerned about him staying. I like PK, but not at his current price. The money could be more wisely spent on other players. I think KW is going to let this one ride out, so he can see what his market value is and how the rest of the season shapes up for Paulie.

MRKARNO
05-26-2005, 03:35 PM
Players like Konerko are dime-a-dozen. There are plenty of heavy-hitting first basemen to go around and we have a few in our farm system if we wanted to go that route (maybe not as heavy hitting, but we've got some guys that can hit that play the power positions).

The real essential thing is making sure Buehrle and Garland remain with this organization for an extended amount of time while keeping McCarthy. If we could have Garcia, Buehrle, Garland and McCarthy for an extended period, this team is going to be in awesome shape.

PicktoCLick72
05-26-2005, 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by Baby Fisk

:o:
If you are talking about last year's commercial where Konerko talks about team chemistry, bear in mind that he was RECITING LINES THAT SOMEONE WROTE FOR HIM. Little dude, commercials are MADE UP. You don't really believe that Rowand met the devil, do you?

THis explains why that movie with Frank, Robin, and Albert Belle never made it to video.

Jurr
05-26-2005, 04:14 PM
You're right, we should never be concerned about ways to improve the team...

a .235 hitting #4 hitter who annually leads the galaxy in rally-killing GIDP's is essential on a championship calber team...

Beat it Pauly.
41 homers. 117 rbi. reason enough to keep him. get a clue.

maurice
05-26-2005, 04:21 PM
I'm glad this thread was started, since none of the other threads discuss whether Konerko should be retained.

Play it again, Sachmo:
:threadblows:

Jurr
05-26-2005, 04:26 PM
You said Joe Crede was garbage, then all of a sudden, you're loving him and coming up with nicknames like a bunch of cheerleaders.

You said you hated Jon Garland...called him Judy. Now you love him.

Dye, Rowand, the list goes on and on.

Paulie shouldn't be picked up next season for 11 or 12 mil a year. He's worth 9.5 to 10 mil a year. He protects guys around him in the order and he does have great games and great streaks of production. Yeah, you hate his BA, but look at the runs he's produced in the last week. Not everybody in the league can do that. Most guys that can do that make 10-15 mil per year. Seriously. Think before you rip on people.

Especially people who are on a team that's 33-14.

maurice
05-26-2005, 04:29 PM
He's worth 9.5 to 10 mil a year.

:tealpolice:

CleeFan101
05-26-2005, 04:34 PM
I say offer him arbitration and say goodbye, than use contreras to get a stud 1B prospect and maybe a bullpen arm, thinking on the lines of Adrian Gonzalez maybe that Howard kid on Philly... guys that are blocked by stud 1B on their teams...

That way we have a new stud 1B for the future and we get a nice 1st round pick for losing Konerko and there is a spot for B-Mac in the rotation. Not to mention the amount of money saved for a big F/A.

Randar68
05-26-2005, 04:38 PM
Seriously. Think before you rip on people.

You might want to take a tad of your own advice and do a little "critical thinking" instead of just being a jag.

Randar68
05-26-2005, 04:39 PM
41 homers. 117 rbi. reason enough to keep him. get a clue.

Thanks, but no thanks. One good season out of 5. Reason enough to dump him...

As you'd say: "get a clue"...

Randar68
05-26-2005, 04:39 PM
I say offer him arbitration and say goodbye, than use contreras to get a stud 1B prospect and maybe a bullpen arm, thinking on the lines of Adrian Gonzalez maybe that Howard kid on Philly... guys that are blocked by stud 1B on their teams...

Wow, someone forgot how to use "deeppink" for fantasies...

DaleJRFan
05-26-2005, 04:40 PM
...use contreras to get a stud 1B prospect and maybe a bullpen arm...

Three words: NO TRADE CLAUSE

jehosaphat
05-26-2005, 04:41 PM
41 homers. 117 rbi. reason enough to keep him. get a clue.

Yep - unless someone is willing to give us someone who is quite a bit better, for whatever reason. No need to roll the dice on a new player who may or may not be as good, and this year is definitely not the year to be overly concerned about losing someone to FA in the off season without getting anything in return.

The only really stupid idea in the thread is to trade pitching along with Konerko - we can win for a long time with Konerko at first, but cannot win without pitching depth.

How is that for the final word?

Randar68
05-26-2005, 04:45 PM
Helton's contract is through the roof, and Uncle Jerry will NEVER pick up the tab on that one. Colorado would have to eat a huge amount of it, which I doubt they will do. He'd be nice, but look at what Jayson Stark had to say about Helton:

Todd Helton will be a Rockie as long as he wants to be. He's signed through 2011 at humoungous dollars ($16.6M a year, starting next year, for the next five years, and then a jump to $19.1M and then a buyout of nearly $5M. That's over $100 million. AND he has a total no-trade. AND he's maybe the most popular active athlete in Colorado. So unless he wants to force his way out, he isn't going anywhere. And there are no indications he'll do that.

Stark is no mediot, so I'll listen to what he has to say. And don't boil Lee's career down to this past weekend. The Cubs were scuffling trying to keep up with the speed of the game that the White Sox dictated to them. Lee is not as poor of a baserunner as it looked.

You have grossly missed out on this discussion that has occurred already. I think a convincing case has been made for its feasibility.

Helton has a complete no-trade clause, but as long as Colorado has him, he'll be on a perennial losing team because his contract handcuffs the Rockies from building around their youth, thus, I find it hard to believe he won't waive it to go to a contender. In addition, the Rockies have eaten huge chunks of salary in the past (Mike Hampton) and are looking to deal him this year or in the offseason when his annual salary goes from 12.8 million to 16.6 million.

See "The Konerko Bandwagon" thread for the details of such possible deals... It's hypothetical, but given the contract situations of current Sox players and expiring contract, raised attendence, etc, it is certainly financially feasible.



As for whoever said something about "Why would anyone want PK in a deal?" it's called "An Expiring Contract"... a valuable trade commodity when it has the potential to net you draft picks or a MLB serviceable player for the short term in lieu of exchanging straight cash.

Flight #24
05-26-2005, 04:47 PM
He's worth 9.5 to 10 mil a year.

There's many man better uses of $10mil a year than Paul Konerko. Nothing more than $6-7. You don't pay $10mil to a guy that you're not sure isnt going to spend a whole half of a season hitting <.250.

A partial list of the caliber of player making about $10mil:

Roy Halladay, Jim Edmonds, Albert Pujols, Scott Rolen, Adrian Beltre, Jason Schmidt, Brian Giles, Billy Wagner, Eric Chavez, Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada, Pedro Martinez, Brad Radke, Garrett Anderson, Bartolo Colon, Mike Sweeney

There are also some pretty horrendous contracts out there in this range like: Ryan Klesko, Phil Nevin, Jason Kendall, Tom Glavine, Tim Salmon:o:

The point being that Paul Konerko is nowhere near the caliber of player in the first list. Signing him to a $10/yr, long-term deal will add to the 2d list. Coincidentally, most of the 2d list are fairly old contracts, while there are a ton of newer contracts on the first list, indicating that that caliber of guy is what CURRENTLY deserves $10mil. I would take anyone from that first list in a heartbeat over Paul Konerko, and that's no slam on him.

veeter
05-26-2005, 05:18 PM
I'm in Paulie's corner. Do anything to keep him. He's learned how to drive in runs even when he's not hitting for avg. I just think he's vital to the team.

Jurr
05-26-2005, 05:27 PM
Look at the numbers of all of your STUDS that were on that list. Compare their current power numbers to Paulie's. They're extremely close, if not worse.

Look at the 2001 Mariners for a team that was doing it with pitching and defense. See what happened to them when they got to the playoffs where you need some pop in the lineup.

Jurr
05-26-2005, 05:32 PM
There's many man better uses of $10mil a year than Paul Konerko. Nothing more than $6-7. You don't pay $10mil to a guy that you're not sure isnt going to spend a whole half of a season hitting <.250.

A partial list of the caliber of player making about $10mil:

Roy Halladay, Jim Edmonds, Albert Pujols, Scott Rolen, Adrian Beltre, Jason Schmidt, Brian Giles, Billy Wagner, Eric Chavez, Mariano Rivera, Jorge Posada, Pedro Martinez, Brad Radke, Garrett Anderson, Bartolo Colon, Mike Sweeney

There are also some pretty horrendous contracts out there in this range like: Ryan Klesko, Phil Nevin, Jason Kendall, Tom Glavine, Tim Salmon:o:

The point being that Paul Konerko is nowhere near the caliber of player in the first list. Signing him to a $10/yr, long-term deal will add to the 2d list. Coincidentally, most of the 2d list are fairly old contracts, while there are a ton of newer contracts on the first list, indicating that that caliber of guy is what CURRENTLY deserves $10mil. I would take anyone from that first list in a heartbeat over Paul Konerko, and that's no slam on him.



Okay..a couple of the guys listed here are way above 10 mil a year. Pujols signed for 7 years and 100 mil. Beltre is another example of having a contract above 10 mil a year. I'd love to have those guys over Paulie, but I'm talking about that 10 mil range.

Edmonds?? .271 with 7 homers and 26 RBI at the moment. He plays a mean outfield, but that's not what we get or need from a guy like Konerko. We need RBI and homers. Paulie's numbers equate with everybody in the league making 10 mil and a whole lot of guys making more than 10 mil a year.

maurice
05-26-2005, 05:33 PM
Compare their current power numbers to Paulie's.

Please tell me that you didn't just compare Albert Pujols to Paul Konerko.

Edit:

I'd love to have those guys over Paulie

Thank you.

BaseballTonyght
05-26-2005, 05:53 PM
It seems like the original argument got lost in translation.

I don't think anyone would argue Konerko is the best hitter or producer in the league. However, having said that, I don't think his current salary is unreasonable for the types of numbers he's been putting up for the past season and 3/4ths.

If he's .235/40/100 at the end of the year for $10M, I'll take it. If he wants more than that, then so long Paulie.

Flight #24
05-26-2005, 06:02 PM
Okay..a couple of the guys listed here are way above 10 mil a year. Pujols signed for 7 years and 100 mil. Beltre is another example of having a contract above 10 mil a year. I'd love to have those guys over Paulie, but I'm talking about that 10 mil range.

Edmonds?? .271 with 7 homers and 26 RBI at the moment. He plays a mean outfield, but that's not what we get or need from a guy like Konerko. We need RBI and homers. Paulie's numbers equate with everybody in the league making 10 mil and a whole lot of guys making more than 10 mil a year.

First off: those are just their current year salaries. There are escalators, as I'm sure there will be in any deal Paulie signs.

Second: This isn't about this year's production, it's about this year and what history says about future production. None of the studs on the list have been as slump-prone as Paulie, and all have quite regularly outproduced him. A blind reliance on HR and RBI #s is the problem. I take it Rob Deer would have been one of your heros since he quite regularly put up good HR #s. Jeromy Burnitz could be another one.

Actually, that's not a bad comparison. Paul Konerko and Jeromy Burnitz. I don't have time to check the stats right now, but both are mediocre average, good power guys. But neither is a stud, both are just solid players.

ExpoPuddingHead
05-26-2005, 06:03 PM
I think that what we have to realize is that Paul Konerko is a very streaky hitter but there are some really good positives to him. There have been at least two games this season where all of our runs have come from Konerko homers not including last night against the angels. The fact is that Konerko is a good hitter. He's not a great player like Pujols or Rolen but he is better than guys like Beltre and Posada. I'd say he's about equal to say Garett Anderson or Brian Giles, both those guys have higher BA's but less home runs. I think that we a getting an above average firstbaseman in Konerko and that saying he sucks or is amazing is plain stupid.

maurice
05-26-2005, 07:16 PM
I'd say he's about equal to say Garett Anderson or Brian Giles

Anderson maybe; Giles no way. Giles career OPS is .961. He's been over 1.000 numerous times. Konerko's never even been close.

Daver
05-26-2005, 07:23 PM
I keep reading that everyone thinks that we're going to get rid of Konerko.

Do you really think that a team that has to fight for fans and attendance would get rid of the last remaining fan favorite on this team?

We got rid of Mags... thank god he went out like a bum, or else everyone would have been horribly pissed, Lee never became a huge fan favorite because he was outshined by Paulie and Mags and also because he had no personality.

Fans hate Crede (BTW IMHO if we trade him we will kick ourselves down the road). The Buerhle Garland and the other pitchers are only seen once every five days.

If we want to keep fans... and hopefully gain some new young ones, there has to be a player on the team that people want to see when and if they attend. Right now that is Konerko... we can't get rid of him!


Your kidding right?


I thought this thread was going to be about MLB passing a rule that all teams had to have a guy on the active roster that would lose a footrace to a pregnant woman.


:redneck

The Racehorse
05-26-2005, 07:25 PM
I thought this thread was going to be about MLB passing a rule that all teams had to have a guy on the active roster that would lose a footrace to a pregnant woman.


:redneck

... and come in third.

:)

ExpoPuddingHead
05-26-2005, 08:01 PM
Anderson maybe; Giles no way. Giles career OPS is .961. He's been over 1.000 numerous times. Konerko's never even been close.

I was meaning the Giles of today, just past his prime= the Konerko of today, at his prime not in total career numbers.

A. Cavatica
05-26-2005, 09:32 PM
Man, I hate it when there are six pages of opinions in the daily Konerko thread before I get to chime in.

He's not a cornerstone player. He's only had one season where he was among the top-producing first baseman, and he also had one season where he was a bottom-feeder. He'd be a nifty signing at $5 million per, but he'd be an albatross at $10m per.

He's exactly the kind of player the Sox must let walk.

Bisco Stu
05-26-2005, 10:56 PM
He needs to stop striking out with RISP, like he did today in the 4th.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-27-2005, 08:44 AM
Keeping Konerko is essential

:roflmao:

Here is one thing any REAL baseball fan (not a troll like you) would have no trouble understanding:

The most imminently replaceable everyday ballplayer on the White Sox is a slow-footed firstbasemen who can't put together a full season at the plate.

The only reason Paul Konerko is here today is because 8 weeks of shopping him last October and November yielded no takers for Kenny Williams. He finally gave up and traded Carlos Lee instead.

Job security on the Sox roster for GIDPaulieee mostly revolves around his ridiculous salary. We can't move him. There is little mistakening what a clubhouse grandstander he is except amongst the GIDPaulogists who think he is a great clubhouse guy -- all evidence to the contrary.

We're stuck with Paul Konerko, probably through the end of the year. But don't worry -- pitching and defense wins ballgames and nobody executes the ol' 3-6-3 double play like our guy GIDPauleee.

:kukoo:

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2005, 09:20 AM
Konerko's abject failure to drive in a run last night against the Angels with runners on second and third with none out (and then a runner on second with one out, after Iguchi was thrown out at the plate on the wild pitch) epitomizes why he's not worth the money he's being paid, and why he's not good enough to be a cleanup hitter.
:angry:

That's the type of situation where the first baseman/cleanup hitter (particularly one billed as a "professional hitter") must do one of the following:

A. Smash a three-run homer
B. Double both runners home
C. Single both runners home
D. Hit a sac fly for one run

How do the FOGIDPK "apaulogists" explain away this one?
:angry:

Jurr
05-27-2005, 12:16 PM
Konerko's abject failure to drive in a run last night against the Angels with runners on second and third with none out (and then a runner on second with one out, after Iguchi was thrown out at the plate on the wild pitch) epitomizes why he's not worth the money he's being paid, and why he's not good enough to be a cleanup hitter.
:angry:

That's the type of situation where the first baseman/cleanup hitter (particularly one billed as a "professional hitter") must do one of the following:

A. Smash a three-run homer
B. Double both runners home
C. Single both runners home
D. Hit a sac fly for one run

How do the FOGIDPK "apaulogists" explain away this one?
:angry:
If every 'professional hitter' in the league came through in every situation with runners on base, they'd :

A. Have 200 RBI, 90 HR seasons
B. Make 50 mil a year
C. Get a whole lot of intentional walks
D. Not average around 35 homers and 120 RBI, which is what the normal 'professional hitter' puts together in a year. You forget that players don't hit in the .600's or .500's. They fail 7 out of 10 times. That includes with runners in scoring position. And, yes, that includes striking out. Sometimes luck's involved (Corey Patterson's glove, for instance), and sometimes they do exactly what you said a professional hitter should do (the 3 run bomb that gave the Sox most of their runs the other night). Examine his body of work at the end of the season and see where you're at, ESPECIALLY IF THE SOX KEEP WINNING 7 OUT OF 10 GAMES!

ShoelessJoeS
05-27-2005, 12:19 PM
amen. hes been carrying us as of late

PaleHoseGeorge
05-27-2005, 12:20 PM
amen. hes been carrying us as of late

WOW! This is going to come as news to our five starting pitchers!

:roflmao:

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2005, 12:22 PM
If every 'professional hitter' in the league came through in every situation with runners on base, they'd :

A. Have 200 RBI, 90 HR seasons
B. Make 50 mil a year
C. Get a whole lot of intentional walks
D. Not average around 35 homers and 120 RBI, which is what the normal 'professional hitter' puts together in a year. You forget that players don't hit in the .600's or .500's. They fail 7 out of 10 times. That includes with runners in scoring position. And, yes, that includes striking out. Sometimes luck's involved (Corey Patterson's glove, for instance), and sometimes they do exactly what you said a professional hitter should do (the 3 run bomb that gave the Sox most of their runs the other night). Examine his body of work at the end of the season and see where you're at, ESPECIALLY IF THE SOX KEEP WINNING 7 OUT OF 10 GAMES!

You'd think at the bare minimum he could get the RBI sac fly...

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2005, 12:24 PM
You forget that players don't hit in the .600's or .500's. They fail 7 out of 10 times.

The problem is that Paulie fails 8, 9 or 10 times out of 10 when he's in one of his frequent, deep and long slumps.

TomBradley72
05-27-2005, 12:29 PM
Sometimes a team needs to retain a player simply because of the "intangibles" he brings..what he means to the franchise, the fan base, etc...in addition to what he produces on the field.....I think Paulie is an example of that....he's a perfect fit with the Sox fan base (hard working, humble) McDowell, Ventura, Fisk....all could have been that player for the franchise....but we let them go or things go ugly at the end....we spend millions on these players over the years...then let them go and don't take advantage of the "equity" that we've built up. Without overpaying(I believe he wants to stay...would accept a solid offer...maybe even a little below market value)....I would keep Konerko...leave 1st base alone.....and work on upgrading 3B, SS or RF.

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2005, 12:30 PM
Sometimes a team needs to retain a player simply because of the "intangibles" he brings..what he means to the franchise, the fan base, etc...in addition to what he produces on the field.....I think Paulie is an example of that....he's a perfect fit with the Sox fan base (hard working, humble) McDowell, Ventura, Fisk....all could have been that player for the franchise....but we let them go or things go ugly at the end....we spend millions on these players over the years...then let them go and don't take advantage of the "equity" that we've built up. Without overpaying(I believe he wants to stay...would accept a solid offer...maybe even a little below market value)....I would keep Konerko...leave 1st base alone.....and work on upgrading 3B, SS or RF.

So now we're defending Paulie on his "intangibles."

Indeed. :rolleyes:

TomBradley72
05-27-2005, 12:36 PM
Production + Intangilbes + Franchise With A Very Short List of "Long Term" Players (other than Frank Thomas) + A LONG List of Fan Favorites Who Left (Fisk,McDowell,Ventura,Ordonez) = Retain Him

Jurr
05-27-2005, 12:37 PM
The problem is that Paulie fails 8, 9 or 10 times out of 10 when he's in one of his frequent, deep and long slumps.
Very true...and that DOES suck. However, when he comes out of those slumps and rounds out his numbers to what they'll probably be at the end of the year (.270 35-40 and 115), you'll see a guy that is worth his money.

I know it's easy to get frustrated by a guy like Paulie. He's not a consistent everyday force offensively. He can't run, he CAN field, and he looks REALLY PATHETIC when it's slump time.

But, man, when you see that swing straighten up and those balls start hitting gaps or the stands, and those "Paulie! Paulie!" chants start going, there's no better thing to watch! The guy can absolutely dominate at times!

If you take a totally unemotional look at Paul Konerko (forget that we lost and Paulie didn't come through last night), you see a guy that at the end of the year is going to hit 30-40 homers and knock in over 100 runs. The LOW END asking price for a guy like that is 9-10 mil. Aubrey Huff may be the aberration to that rule, but his day is coming, and SOON.

You don't have to worry about Konerko screwing up in the field, you know he's a good clubhouse guy (don't even start with your Uribe crap, either..the reporters probably blew that way out of context), and he gives you the homers and RBI that you paid for. If you get that from a guy and you win 95 games and make the playoffs, it's money well spent.

Randar68
05-27-2005, 12:43 PM
Very true...and that DOES suck. However, when he comes out of those slumps and rounds out his numbers to what they'll probably be at the end of the year (.270 35-40 and 115), you'll see a guy that is worth his money.

I know it's easy to get frustrated by a guy like Paulie. He's not a consistent everyday force offensively. He can't run, he CAN field, and he looks REALLY PATHETIC when it's slump time.

But, man, when you see that swing straighten up and those balls start hitting gaps or the stands, and those "Paulie! Paulie!" chants start going, there's no better thing to watch! The guy can absolutely dominate at times!

If you take a totally unemotional look at Paul Konerko (forget that we lost and Paulie didn't come through last night), you see a guy that at the end of the year is going to hit 30-40 homers and knock in over 100 runs. The LOW END asking price for a guy like that is 9-10 mil. Aubrey Huff may be the aberration to that rule, but his day is coming, and SOON.

You don't have to worry about Konerko screwing up in the field, you know he's a good clubhouse guy (don't even start with your Uribe crap, either..the reporters probably blew that way out of context), and he gives you the homers and RBI that you paid for. If you get that from a guy and you win 95 games and make the playoffs, it's money well spent.

Wait, it's worth keeping him at up to 10 million a year because half the time he justifies that salary, while the other half he makes Tim Salmon look like he's a good value?

Sounds like a 5-7 million dollar player to me, not one you can justify building an offense around.

voodoochile
05-27-2005, 12:46 PM
You'd think at the bare minimum he could get the RBI sac fly...

Again, no... because that doesn't count as an at bat, so obviously every hitter fails 65% of the time minimum in those situations and those are the best hitters in the league. PK is not having a great season so far, but to expect him to succeed at driving in a run every time he has a chance is simply ridiculous.

Baby Fisk
05-27-2005, 12:52 PM
I see a future in tomato farming for Mr. P. Konerko.

maurice
05-27-2005, 12:55 PM
I was meaning the Giles of today, just past his prime= the Konerko of today, at his prime not in total career numbers.

The "Brian Giles of today" who has a .405 OBP and .914 OPS today?

Konerko's bat is closer to Marcus Giles . . . except that Marcus can run and field . . . and makes only about $2 mil. this year.

tstrike2000
05-27-2005, 12:56 PM
In direct response to the thread title, keeping Konerko is not essential. Winning teams start with pitching and defense. Those are essential, not someone who can put up power numbers but have historically long slump periods, run like he's got the Sears Tower strapped to his back further adding to DP's, and a little too much talk in the press. All for the bargain price of 8 mill? 4-5 million maybe. If he wants more, tell him to take a long walk off a short pier.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-27-2005, 12:56 PM
I see a future in tomato farming for Mr. P. Konerko.

Nobody does tomatoes like the GIDPaulogists. No matter how many times they get punched in the head, they just keep leaning into it.

:wink:

It's truly remarkable how far they're willing to go to make fools of themselves... as if we haven't already covered all the ground they fought and lost these past five days...

:kukoo:

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2005, 12:57 PM
:tomatoaward:

Another one for the FOGIDPK.
:supernana:

Randar68
05-27-2005, 01:00 PM
The "Brian Giles of today" who has a .405 OBP and .914 OPS today?

Konerko's bat is closer to Marcus Giles . . . except that Marcus can run and field . . . and makes only about $2 mil. this year.

*****! well played.

Flight #24
05-27-2005, 04:32 PM
I know it's easy to get frustrated by a guy like Paulie. He's not a consistent everyday force offensively. He can't run, he CAN field, and he looks REALLY PATHETIC when it's slump time.
So we agree.....

If you take a totally unemotional look at Paul Konerko (forget that we lost and Paulie didn't come through last night), you see a guy that at the end of the year is going to hit 30-40 homers and knock in over 100 runs. The LOW END asking price for a guy like that is 9-10 mil. Aubrey Huff may be the aberration to that rule, but his day is coming, and SOON.
You would be right if GMs were as focused on the 2 #s you mention as you are. However, that ignores a ton of other factors, such as: RBI totals can be deceptive since they depend significantly on the guys in front of you and because even a poor hitter can put up big RBI totals in the right situation. Or the fact that guys who hit a lot of HRs but do little else don't provide as much value as guys that maybe hit fewer HRs, but also hit a lot more doubles & singles.

This is why the stat that's come to be accepted as a better metric for a hitter is OPS, not HR or RBI. It takes a lot of these other factors into account. Konerko in his best year, still ranked a sterling 31st in MLB in OPS. Paul Konerko is Phil Nevin. Paul Konerko is Ryan Klesko. Paul Konerko is Jeromy Burnitz. I.e. a good complementary (i.e. 2d or 3d best) offensive player. That's not a $10mil player.

You don't have to worry about Konerko screwing up in the field, you know he's a good clubhouse guy (don't even start with your Uribe crap, either..the reporters probably blew that way out of context), and he gives you the homers and RBI that you paid for. If you get that from a guy and you win 95 games and make the playoffs, it's money well spent.

This is laughable. You have exactly what basis to know that Paulie's a great clubhouse guy? Because no one rips him to the media (he's the only one with that tendency)? Because he works with younger players (ummmm....nope)? Because of what exactly? Most of his "clubhouse leader"/"good guy" rep comes because he ripped Frank Thomas and was lauded by a Frank-hating media for it. There's far more objective evidence to say that he's an issue in the clubhouse than that he's a positive force.

Flight #24
05-27-2005, 04:55 PM
Here's 2 players, you be the judge of how similar they are using your HR & RBI stats.

Player A stats from 2004-1999:
HR: 41, 18, 27, 32, 21, 24
RBI: 117, 65, 104, 99, 97, 81

Player B:
HR: 37, 31, 19, 34, 31, 33
RBI: 110, 77, 54, 100, 98, 103

Player B averages from 1999-2004: .248BA, 31HR, 90RBI, .834OPS
Player A averages from 1999-2004: .281BA, 27HR, 94RBI, .836OPS

Pretty similar, no? A hits for a better average, but neither is a great average hitter. You know who A is. B is Jeromy Burnitz, and he makes $4.5mil, not $10. And I'll bet he can play a decent 1B.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-27-2005, 08:39 PM
Production + Intangilbes + Franchise With A Very Short List of "Long Term" Players (other than Frank Thomas) + A LONG List of Fan Favorites Who Left (Fisk,McDowell,Ventura,Ordonez) = Retain Him

Boy, this just SCREAMS Flubbie-think. We're suppose to place second in priority fielding a winning team behind fielding a team that can draw 3 million ignorant tourists? There's no business like show business?

:kukoo:

PaleHoseGeorge
05-27-2005, 08:42 PM
for the guy with the cold up there....


Thomas is a fan favorite right now... how many times have you heard Sox fans complain about him. Probably even yourself.

Rowand is becoming a fan favorite I'll give you that one.

Pods... well he's been here less than a year.

Pitching.... like I said.... once every five games.

It's Friday night, swingkid. Time to inflate your bra and go bar hopping!

:crossdresser

jabrch
05-27-2005, 08:45 PM
I'd be happy to have PK back next year...provided he wants to take money that a .275/30/100/100 1B would take. If he wants 10mm, he can hit the road - and be quick about it. If he wants 5mm, he's welcome to stay.

There are a lot of guys who are similar to PK who play 1B as well or better. He better not get too high on himself in negotiation time, or he will find himself seeking other employment.

I don't think KW is tied to him at all.

Hendu
05-27-2005, 09:07 PM
For those that think that we need to sign Paul Konerko long-term, tell me who we are going to be bidding against? Does anyone honestly see any team offering Pauly more than 8 mil per year for a couple of years? I think that's the max we should offer him (barring better options becoming available)...2 years 16 mil. I can't imagine any other team offering him more than that.

Daver
05-27-2005, 09:13 PM
For those that think that we need to sign Paul Konerko long-term, tell me who we are going to be bidding against? Does anyone honestly see any team offering Pauly more than 8 mil per year for a couple of years? I think that's the max we should offer him (barring better options becoming available)...2 years 16 mil. I can't imagine any other team offering him more than that.

Paul Konerko is nowhere close to an 8 mil a year ballplayer.

A. Cavatica
05-27-2005, 09:53 PM
But he hit a clutch solo homer tonight to bring us back from a six run deficit!

Hendu
05-27-2005, 09:55 PM
Paul Konerko is nowhere close to an 8 mil a year ballplayer.

I agree, but many players in MLB aren't worth what they're making. I was just wondering, with the crazy salaries that went to Beltre and JD Drew, etc, the max that any team would offer Pauly. I can't see anything over 2 years at 8 mil per (it's still too much, but less than Pauly probably thinks he's worth). I think 2 years at 12 mil is about right.

Hendu
05-27-2005, 10:04 PM
List of 2005 1B salaries (http://www.onestopbaseball.com/2005/Salaries/showposition.asp?Order=TotalSalary&Position=First%20Baseman)

Lots of overpaid 1B in there (Helton, Giambi, Bagwell, Sweeney, etc) but some values as well.

Daver
05-27-2005, 10:13 PM
I agree, but many players in MLB aren't worth what they're making. I was just wondering, with the crazy salaries that went to Beltre and JD Drew, etc, the max that any team would offer Pauly. I can't see anything over 2 years at 8 mil per (it's still too much, but less than Pauly probably thinks he's worth). I think 2 years at 12 mil is about right.

Casey Rogowski will give you close to the same production, except the power numbers, with a little speed on the basepaths, for the league minimum.

I bet he can keep his mouth shut too.

skobabe8
05-27-2005, 10:31 PM
For a team that has the best record in the bigs, they frustrate me a whole lot. And Paulie is at the top of the list. Fact is, there are signs that the pitching won't be able to sustain this hot start. Our offense, which has been anemic most of the year but bailed out by the starters, is going to need to pick it up. And having PK in the cleanup spot is not going to be able to do it. Same goes for Uribe and Crede. Kenny has to make a move concerning these area, or we might be in trouble.

voodoochile
05-28-2005, 08:12 AM
For a team that has the best record in the bigs, they frustrate me a whole lot. And Paulie is at the top of the list. Fact is, there are signs that the pitching won't be able to sustain this hot start. Our offense, which has been anemic most of the year but bailed out by the starters, is going to need to pick it up. And having PK in the cleanup spot is not going to be able to do it. Same goes for Uribe and Crede. Kenny has to make a move concerning these area, or we might be in trouble.

What signs? :dunno::?:

DarkCloudDropo
05-28-2005, 08:41 AM
Wait, it's worth keeping him at up to 10 million a year because half the time he justifies that salary, while the other half he makes Tim Salmon look like he's a good value?

Sounds like a 5-7 million dollar player to me, not one you can justify building an offense around.

I think you missed Jurr's point. It's more like half the time he's worth $3 to $4 million and half the time he's worth $15 to $16 million.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-28-2005, 08:52 AM
I think you missed Jurr's point. It's more like half the time he's worth $3 to $4 million and half the time he's worth $15 to $16 million.

Actually, YOU missed the point. Streaky hitters don't get $15 million, especially slow-footed firstbasemen whose "non-streak" periods have them hovering around the Mendoza Line.
:roflmao:

Konerko has been here long enough for everyone to know he'll never put together a full season. I just hope some other GM is stupid enough not to realize it. I'm pretty sure KW already figured it out because getting rid of Konerko was his first priority last winter.

He finally gave up and traded Lee instead providing yet another bit of evidence for how little Konerko is worth for the GIDPaulogists to make fools of themselves trying to explain away...

DarkCloudDropo
05-28-2005, 09:17 AM
Actually, YOU missed the point. Streaky hitters don't get $15 million, especially slow-footed firstbasemen whose "non-streak" periods have them hovering around the Mendoza Line.
:roflmao:

Konerko has been here long enough for everyone to know he'll never put together a full season. I just hope some other GM is stupid enough not to realize it. I'm pretty sure KW already figured it out because getting rid of Konerko was his first priority last winter.

He finally gave up and traded Lee instead providing yet another bit of evidence for how little Konerko is worth for the GIDPaulogists to make fools of themselves trying to explain away...

Actually I think you still miss the point. First, it wasn't my point. It was Jurr's. What it seemed he was suggesting was that when Konerko is hot he's as good a hitter as any firstbaseman in the game and if he maintained it thruout the whole season he'd be getting paid, well, what does the highest paid firstbaseman make? In this slump he's in he still leads the team in hr's and rbis so he must be worth at least a few million, right? All I was doing was adding these salaries up then dividing them by 2 (for each half season) to try and come up with a fair value. I was only presuming to explain Jurr's thinking.

I believe if Konerko was hitting .280 right now with his 13 home runs and 37 rbis no one would be making such a big deal about it (even if they felt he wasn't quite worth $8 mil). So if, as some suggest, he does end up with a .270/.280 average with 40+ hrs and 110+ rbis I fail to see how he can't be compared to the biggest producers in the game.
He may not be the best deal in town but I don't think he's the worst deal either when compared to some others.

Of course if he doesn't pick it up I will not advocate paying any $8 mil or so. But so far he's been pretty consistant in having that really good half. Time will tell, as usual.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-28-2005, 09:39 AM
...What it seemed he was suggesting was that when Konerko is hot he's as good a hitter as any firstbaseman in the game and if he maintained it thruout the whole season he'd be getting paid, well, what does the highest paid firstbaseman make? In this slump he's in he still leads the team in hr's and rbis so he must be worth at least a few million, right? All I was doing was adding these salaries up then dividing them by 2 (for each half season) to try and come up with a fair value. I was only presuming to explain Jurr's thinking.


You know what? You would be doing Jurr a tremendous favor by letting him speak for himself rather than leave him out hanging to dry with this utter nonsense you just wrote on his behalf.
:roflmao:

Konerko DOESN'T put together full seasons. It's stupid that you still think he might.

Konerko has one of the worst BA's with RISP of any firstbasemen and we could find plenty of ballplayers capable of driving even more home runs and rbi's and still play a slow-footed firstbase position.

Mediocre talent does not command premium salary. Konerko's ungodly streaks only barely make him above average for the ungodly slumps he routinely suffers. They are 100 percent predictable to everyone but the GIDPaulogists.

Speaking for Jurr, I say get a clue. Jurr wouldn't set himself up to look so silly.

:kukoo:

DarkCloudDropo
05-28-2005, 09:45 AM
You know what? You would be doing Jurr a tremendous favor by letting him speak for himself rather than leave him out hanging to dry with this utter nonsense you just wrote on his behalf.
:roflmao:

Konerko DOESN'T put together full seasons. It's stupid that you still think he might.

Konerko has one of the worst BA's with RISP of any firstbasemen and we could find plenty of ballplayers capable of driving even more home runs and rbi's and still play a slow-footed firstbase position.

Mediocre talent does not command premium salary. Konerko's ungodly streaks only barely make him above average for the ungodly slumps he routinely suffers. They are 100 percent predictable to everyone but the GIDPaulogists.

Speaking for Jurr, I say get a clue. Jurr wouldn't set himself up to look so silly.

:kukoo:

Well, I think it's exactly what he was trying to say. Perhaps he will indicate if I misinterpreted his post..

Paid Santiago
05-28-2005, 04:50 PM
Having the cleanup hitter batting higher than 230 is essential. Having the cleanup hitter batting better than 200 with RISP is essential. Having a "team leader" not calling out players in the press is essential.

Konerko is expendable. KW has proved that he is not afraid to move players regardless of their standing with the fanbase. If Konerko can go at the deadline, move him, get something for him. If he continues all season as he has begun the season, a move WILL be made for a REAL cleanup hitter.


Nick Johnson anyone? Every move made should not impact solely the immediate future but also the forseeable future.

with johnson u get a more patient hitter, a less powerful hitter(though johnson has 30 hr potential), a better contact hitter, a faster runner, and a better fielder.

1. scott podsednik
2. tadahito iguchi
3. Nick Johnson (not your prototypical no 3 hitter but he'd suffice)
4. Big Frank
5. Crazy Carl
6. aaron rowand
7. A.J. Pierzynski
8. Joe Crede
9. Juan Uribe or a line up of
1. pods 2. iguchi 3. nick johnson 4. big frank 5. aaron rowand 6. a.j. 7. dye 8. crede 9. uribe

gosox41
05-28-2005, 05:32 PM
Casey Rogowski will give you close to the same production, except the power numbers, with a little speed on the basepaths, for the league minimum.

I bet he can keep his mouth shut too.

Is Rogowski ready for the majors? Or will he be in 2006?


Bob

Jurr
05-28-2005, 06:35 PM
Sorry Dropo...I wasn't making a point about paying for half seasons or anything like that. Thanks for giving it a shot though. :wink:

My point about the whole thing is probably the angle the Sox are taking towards it. Put simply:

A.) Konerko's a slow running, cerebral (almost to a fault) hitter that is paid to drive in runs, hit homers, and protect other hitters in the lineup.

B.) Paul goes into long funks, due to the fact that he's such a mental case. When he's in the middle of such spells, he really provides no benefit to the club.

C.) When Konerko is hot, he absolutely kills the ball and puts up numbers comparable with most star players in the league.

D.) If at the end of this season, Konerko has done what he's been paid to do (which, for his pay, is to hit above .270, produce around 35 homeruns and 115-120 RBI and play good defense), then he's worthy of an extension with a SMALL raise added in.

E.) If he doesn't produce those numbers, then it may be time to go cheaper, spread his money elsewhere (resign Garland, upgrade a position) and bring Ross Gload into the first base slot. Or, maybe pick up some decent sub like Hinske.

Some of you probably would love to see the Sox dump Konerko and then sign a guy like Aubrey Huff. I'm down with that. But, what's going to happen is the guy will put up 30 homers, 100 RBI, and will command 10-15 million a year. It's all about how much the Sox are willing to pay for run production.

CWSGuy406
05-28-2005, 07:04 PM
41 homers. 117 rbi. reason enough to keep him. get a clue.

And of those 41 homers, 12 came on the road. Not to mention, he didn't do a darn thing helping us win on the road -- .239 AVG, and a Christian Guzman-like .301 OBP.

Like Flight said, if there's a chance you can get him at $6 million, you think about it, but certainly not $9-10 million.

Get a clue.

I believe if Konerko was hitting .280 right now with his 13 home runs and 37 rbis no one would be making such a big deal about it (even if they felt he wasn't quite worth $8 mil). So if, as some suggest, he does end up with a .270/.280 average with 40+ hrs and 110+ rbis I fail to see how he can't be compared to the biggest producers in the game.

If you're even suggesting that Konerko is a top-flight firstbaseman with last year's numbers, he's still not worth ten million bucks. Last year, Konerko had a 123 OPS+ (park adjusted, 100 is average). Guys that make ten million, or around there -- JD Drew (I believe he's at 11 million, 5 years, $55, right?) 158 OPS+, Abreu 149, and even Justin Morneau in his short time put up a 122 OPS+ (at a fraction of Konerko's salary).

DarkCloudDropo
05-28-2005, 07:16 PM
Sorry Dropo...I wasn't making a point about paying for half seasons or anything like that. Thanks for giving it a shot though. :wink:

My point about the whole thing is probably the angle the Sox are taking towards it. Put simply:

A.) Konerko's a slow running, cerebral (almost to a fault) hitter that is paid to drive in runs, hit homers, and protect other hitters in the lineup.

B.) Paul goes into long funks, due to the fact that he's such a mental case. When he's in the middle of such spells, he really provides no benefit to the club.

C.) When Konerko is hot, he absolutely kills the ball and puts up numbers comparable with most star players in the league.

D.) If at the end of this season, Konerko has done what he's been paid to do (which, for his pay, is to hit above .270, produce around 35 homeruns and 115-120 RBI and play good defense), then he's worthy of an extension with a SMALL raise added in.

E.) If he doesn't produce those numbers, then it may be time to go cheaper, spread his money elsewhere (resign Garland, upgrade a position) and bring Ross Gload into the first base slot. Or, maybe pick up some decent sub like Hinske.

Some of you probably would love to see the Sox dump Konerko and then sign a guy like Aubrey Huff. I'm down with that. But, what's going to happen is the guy will put up 30 homers, 100 RBI, and will command 10-15 million a year. It's all about how much the Sox are willing to pay for run production.

I'm not sure why you think I got it wrong. I just put it in different terms.

Your points B and C still add up to point D.
I just used the terms low pay, him being worth only a few million a year (point B) for his poor half year and high pay, him being worth perhaps 15 million a year (C) equaling out to (D) about what he makes.
I wasn't suggesting the Sox could pay a player for a half season. That would be absurd.
And I agree that if his numbers at the end of the year are comparable to what he did last season then he's worth his pay. I mean what's the difference between 1/2 + 1/2 and 1/4 + 3/4? They both still add up to one.

I hope I was clearer this time.

Jurr
05-28-2005, 07:27 PM
And of those 41 homers, 12 came on the road. Not to mention, he didn't do a darn thing helping us win on the road -- .239 AVG, and a Christian Guzman-like .301 OBP.

Like Flight said, if there's a chance you can get him at $6 million, you think about it, but certainly not $9-10 million.

Get a clue.



If you're even suggesting that Konerko is a top-flight firstbaseman with last year's numbers, he's still not worth ten million bucks. Last year, Konerko had a 123 OPS+ (park adjusted, 100 is average). Guys that make ten million, or around there -- JD Drew (I believe he's at 11 million, 5 years, $55, right?) 158 OPS+, Abreu 149, and even Justin Morneau in his short time put up a 122 OPS+ (at a fraction of Konerko's salary).
Good points, but you're still incredibly hung up on OPS. You're not thinking about RBI and HR, which produce runs for your offense. That's what the Sox are paying for with Konerko. If you think you can pay 6 million a year for 41 homeruns and 117 RBI, (Oh wait....not too many of them were on the road... that means they don't count towards helping the team win ballgames), you're nuts.

Paul Konerko's going to get paid for his production, and if he gets his numbers this year, he'll get resigned. If he doesn't put up the numbers that are expected of him, the Sox will dump him or sign him at a discount. Period.

Jurr
05-28-2005, 07:31 PM
I'm not sure why you think I got it wrong. I just put it in different terms.

Your points B and C still add up to point D.
I just used the terms low pay, him being worth only a few million a year (point B) for his poor half year and high pay, him being worth perhaps 15 million a year (C) equaling out to (D) about what he makes.
I wasn't suggesting the Sox could pay a player for a half season. That would be absurd.
And I agree that if his numbers at the end of the year are comparable to what he did last season then he's worth his pay. I mean what's the difference between 1/2 + 1/2 and 1/4 + 3/4? They both still add up to one.

I hope I was clearer this time.
All well and good, but what people look at are the numbers you put up over the course of the season. No GM is going to say, "man..he hits over 30 homers a year and drives in 120, but damn he sucks in April and May. Let's leave him alone". They look at a guy's defense and his hitting numbers at the end of the year.

Daver
05-28-2005, 07:34 PM
Paul Konerko's going to get paid for his production, and if he gets his numbers this year, he'll get resigned. If he doesn't put up the numbers that are expected of him, the Sox will dump him or sign him at a discount. Period.

He won't get re-signed for a discount unless it is done before the season ends, otherwise he would be subject to arbitration, which, if offered, would force the Sox to re-sign him for at least what he is making this year. I will be surprised if he is offered arbitration.

Jurr
05-28-2005, 07:35 PM
He won't get re-signed for a discount unless it is done before the season ends, otherwise he would be subject to arbitration, which, if offered, would force the Sox to re-sign him for at least what he is making this year. I will be surprised if he is offered arbitration.
Hell, then right now would be the perfect time to offer him a contract, though I doubt he or his agent would agree. I'd take 40 homers for 7 or 8 mil a year.

Daver
05-28-2005, 07:56 PM
Hell, then right now would be the perfect time to offer him a contract, though I doubt he or his agent would agree. I'd take 40 homers for 7 or 8 mil a year.

Paul Konerko is far from an 8 mil a year ballplayer.

DarkCloudDropo
05-28-2005, 08:01 PM
All well and good, but what people look at are the numbers you put up over the course of the season. No GM is going to say, "man..he hits over 30 homers a year and drives in 120, but damn he sucks in April and May. Let's leave him alone". They look at a guy's defense and his hitting numbers at the end of the year.

Absolutely, and I agree with you.

jabrch
05-28-2005, 08:04 PM
Casey Rogowski will give you close to the same production, except the power numbers, with a little speed on the basepaths, for the league minimum.

I bet he can keep his mouth shut too.


Close to PKs numbers, except the power numbers? Couldn't Borch give you that too? PKs value is in the HRs right now.

In any case, I agree that we can get his performance for much less than 8mm, be it in PK himself resigning for less, someone from our system, or a FA 1B from elsewhere.

wdelaney72
05-28-2005, 08:31 PM
you'll see a guy that is worth his money.

This is exactly the problem with Paulie. For the money he's making, he needs to put up CONSISTENT numbers, not the streaky crap he usually does. He's overpaid. Period. I only want him back.. at the right price. I'm fairly confident Kenny will feel the same way.

Fan favorite? Please. Right now, I'm thinking Jon Garland is more of a fan favorite than Konerko. Wny? Cause he's producing.

CWSGuy406
05-28-2005, 08:31 PM
Good points, but you're still incredibly hung up on OPS. You're not thinking about RBI and HR, which produce runs for your offense. That's what the Sox are paying for with Konerko. If you think you can pay 6 million a year for 41 homeruns and 117 RBI, (Oh wait....not too many of them were on the road... that means they don't count towards helping the team win ballgames), you're nuts.

Paul Konerko's going to get paid for his production, and if he gets his numbers this year, he'll get resigned. If he doesn't put up the numbers that are expected of him, the Sox will dump him or sign him at a discount. Period.

RBI's are a stat of chance, what the guys are doing before the player, etc etc. If you're giving a guy a big fat contract based on his RBI numbers...

And, you do realize that OPS is SLG + OBP, correct? Konerko isn't worth $8 million...

DarkCloudDropo
05-28-2005, 08:36 PM
RBI's are a stat of chance, what the guys are doing before the player, etc etc. If you're giving a guy a big fat contract based on his RBI numbers...

And, you do realize that OPS is SLG + OBP, correct? Konerko isn't worth $8 million...


41 of Paul's rbis last year were not stat of chance. 41 is a goodly amount of rbis.

CWSGuy406
05-28-2005, 08:44 PM
41 of Paul's rbis last year were not stat of chance. 41 is a goodly amount of rbis.

I assume you mean homers?

And, Konerko only had 13 of those on the road. If you don't think he's aided by US Cellular, you're kidding yourself (thus, the 123 OPS+, which is good, but not $10 million a year good).

CallMeNuts
05-28-2005, 08:59 PM
I'd be happy to give Gload the starting job. Higher BA. Better glove. Better running. Less streaky. Add Rogowski or Fields to the MLB roster. But MOST importantly, this frees up more $$$$. Spend this $$$$ to keep the current starters and continue to upgrade the pen. What we did before 2005 is working. Continue to follow the pitching route and we might be looking at a 2nd year in the World Series in 2006.

DarkCloudDropo
05-28-2005, 09:04 PM
I assume you mean homers?

And, Konerko only had 13 of those on the road. If you don't think he's aided by US Cellular, you're kidding yourself (thus, the 123 OPS+, which is good, but not $10 million a year good).

Yes, 13 were on the road. And TWENTY EIGHT were at home where they play half their games. It doesn't matter to me if the field helped him. The field didn't help anyone else that much. Are homeruns at home not as important as homeruns on the road?
To me it doesn't matter where he was. His hr's helped win a lot of games. No matter how you twist it he had 41 unassisted rbi's last year.

I'm not suggesting Konerko is the greatest thing ever but it seems to me a lot of people overlook his accomplishments and point to to his streakyness.
Well, I'd rather have a streaky guy hit .275 with 40 hr's and 110 rbis than a steady guy who hits .275 with 30 hr's with 95 rbis.

Jurr
05-28-2005, 09:14 PM
RBI's are a stat of chance, what the guys are doing before the player, etc etc. If you're giving a guy a big fat contract based on his RBI numbers...

And, you do realize that OPS is SLG + OBP, correct? Konerko isn't worth $8 million...
Yeah, I know what OPS is. If you want to get all Bill James on me, then let's talk about Win Shares, which is James' system for calculating a guy's defensive and offensive contribution to the number of wins he's worth to a team.

Last year, Konerko had 26, which is tied for fourth best among MLB first basemen.
1.Pujols 43 2.Helton 34 3. Teixera 28 4. Konerko and Hafner 26

Most of the guys above 26 (Bonds at 57 was king, if you want to know) were named Ortiz, Jeter, Ramirez, Tejada, Santana, Ichiro, Rodriguez (A and I Rod),
Alou, and Edmonds. They all make a boatload of money.

I want to go on record as saying I DO NOT THINK that keeping Konerko is "essential". If he produces 25 or 26 win shares again this year, you're going to have to pay for that kind of player. And, yes, it would probably be 8 or 9 million at least.

If Konerko can't repeat this performance or something close to it, he doesn't deserve the arbitration money.

CallMeNuts
05-28-2005, 09:25 PM
Well, I'd rather have a streaky guy hit .275 with 40 hr's and 110 rbis than a steady guy who hits .275 with 30 hr's with 95 rbis.

1) You're assuming he'll get back to 2004 numbers. That'd be nice. But if you take his 2003 through 2005 numbers to date and divide by 2.3 seasons, he's a .255, 31, 95 guy.

2) That .275, 30, 95 guy should cost us no more than $6MIL. That guy would leave us $4MIL to spend elsewhere. i.e.: pitching.

Jurr
05-28-2005, 09:30 PM
1) You're assuming he'll get back to 2004 numbers. That'd be nice. But if you take his 2003 through 2005 numbers to date and divide by 2.3 seasons, he's a .255, 31, 95 guy.

2) That .275, 30, 95 guy should cost us no more than $6MIL. That guy would leave us $4MIL to spend elsewhere. i.e.: pitching.
Amen. If the guy can't keep producing somewhere close to 2004's numbers, than it really makes no financial sense to keep him, especially if he's going to be asking for a raise. If he can duplicate his success from last year, we should see him back with a LITTLE BIT of a raise.

DarkCloudDropo
05-28-2005, 10:12 PM
1) You're assuming he'll get back to 2004 numbers. That'd be nice. But if you take his 2003 through 2005 numbers to date and divide by 2.3 seasons, he's a .255, 31, 95 guy.

2) That .275, 30, 95 guy should cost us no more than $6MIL. That guy would leave us $4MIL to spend elsewhere. i.e.: pitching.

Oh I agree totally. If he doesn't he's a poor value.

Deadguy
05-28-2005, 11:51 PM
Last year, Konerko had 26, which is tied for fourth best among MLB first basemen.
1.Pujols 43 2.Helton 34 3. Teixera 28 4. Konerko and Hafner 26

Most of the guys above 26 (Bonds at 57 was king, if you want to know) were named Ortiz, Jeter, Ramirez, Tejada, Santana, Ichiro, Rodriguez (A and I Rod),
Alou, and Edmonds. They all make a boatload of money.

I want to go on record as saying I DO NOT THINK that keeping Konerko is "essential". If he produces 25 or 26 win shares again this year, you're going to have to pay for that kind of player. And, yes, it would probably be 8 or 9 million at least.

If Konerko can't repeat this performance or something close to it, he doesn't deserve the arbitration money.

What's sad/funny is that in 2003, Konerko had fewer win shares than Brian Daubach, which placed him 20th on the team:

http://www.baseballgraphs.com/winshares/alwinteam.html#cws

The real Konerk(0 for 4) is probably somewhere between the 2003 and 2004 versions. Both seem to be anomalies in comparison to the rest of his career. But then again, who really knows, which is why it would be foolish to waste a contract extension on someone who is prone to painfully long mental lapses. We need a franchise guy that the rest of the team can count on to produce at a certain level, and Konerko is not that player.

I don't bash players for having a bad series or even a bad week, but in the ONE season where Konerko's production might have mattered, he was beyond horrible. In 2000, he may not have been one of the 5 most valuable players on his own team, and he was hitting .190 well into May, before the Sox started to pull away from the Indians, thanks to the play of others. I have no doubt in my mind that the White Sox would have been a better team in 2003 had Daubach started most of the games, especially in the first half of the season. That speaks volumes for how easilly replaceable some clown like Konerko is. Daubach was signed for $500,000 in the 2003 off season by the White Sox, with little to no interest from other clubs. This despite the fact that his career OPS and career numbers entering the 2003 season weren't far off from GIDPK's. That tells you that either the White Sox grossly overpaid Konerko when they gave him that fat contract, or Daubach was vastly underrated and underappreciated by the other 29 GMs.

I think Konerko's ego will outprice him (thank God) and he will not be on the SS next season. I say, good riddance. Anyone who thinks he would stay for 5-6 million is out of their minds. He can just point to someone like Richie Sexson, and then demand a similar contract.

FarWestChicago
05-28-2005, 11:55 PM
I think Konerko's ego will outprice him (thank God) and he will not be on the SS next season.OK, other than his teammate backstabbing, attention seeking, media whoring, what evidence do you have that he has a big ego? :D:

MRKARNO
05-29-2005, 12:05 AM
The dirty little secret is that Konerko is really not that far off from where he was last year. His OBP right now (.348) is only 11 pts lower than the .359 he posted last year and the slugging isnt that far off either. His average is only 40 points lower as well. He's about on pace for 42 HRs and 120 RBI right now. He's on pace for a career high in walks (87 projected), but he's also on pace to obliterate his career high in K's (136 projected vs 107 last year, also a career high).

So what does this mean? It means that what you see right now is what you get if you want to pay Konerko 10 million a year over the next 4. It doesnt get much better than this (the average should creep up above .255 soon enough). I dont think that what Konerko is doing now would justify that kind of money. I could see about 7-8 a year over three years, but that's about it. Delgado, who got 12 a year for 4 years, is significantly more valuable than Konerko.

Konerko would have to improve over last year in order to be worth that kind of money, something which is possible, seeing that he's going deeper in the count, grounding into fewer double plays (only 3!) and actually being a valuable hitter on the road (8 of 13 HRs on the road).

Deadguy
05-29-2005, 12:06 AM
BTW, if anyone cares, the 2005 Win Shares appear to be updated, and "The Great One" is 12th on the entire team. Not 12th in the majors, not 12th in the AL, but 12th on his own team!!!!

http://www.hardballtimes.com/winshares/index.php?search=&linesToDisplay=100&sort=total&sort2=WSAB&limit1=CHA&limit2=Position&leagueLimit=League

Lets give him a 4 year 48 million dollar contract right now!

And in comparison to the rest of baseball, he ranks 169th.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/winshares/index.php?search=&linesToDisplay=200&sort=total&sort2=WSAB&limit1=Team&limit2=Position&leagueLimit=League

Pauleeeee is so underrated. I always thought of him as just the 183rd best player in baseball. Boy, do I feel foolish.

Congrats to JG for being the 2nd best in baseball. That is really impressive. Keep it up tommorow!

The Wimperoo
05-30-2005, 09:28 PM
Konerko showed why he is so valuble again today!!!GIDP is the greatest :rolleyes:

Paid Santiago
05-31-2005, 02:33 AM
*sees his post get ignorned once again :whiner:

kevingrt
05-31-2005, 10:07 AM
OK, other than his teammate backstabbing, attention seeking, media whoring, what evidence do you have that he has a big ego? :D:

That's the problem with him. The whole Uribe thing this year could have been terrible but there was bigger news going on like the Sox winning. Think if we were .500 or so and PK pulled that stunt, it'd be all over the headlines and such. Because this team is winning all the problems in the clubhouse go under the radar. It will be very interesting to see how long PK stays on this team if he keeps up this act.

Frater Perdurabo
05-31-2005, 01:01 PM
I'm going to try to be completely fair with this analysis, and keep it strictly related to "on the field" performances:

More than Dye's and Everett's struggles, the central problem with the Sox offense right is the responsibility of Paul Konerko.

I've concluded Paulie really is a "professional" hitter. He almost always makes contact. The problem is that he's incredibly prone to pull a line drive. Way too often it results in a line out to the 3B or SS or a sharply hit grounder that results in one or two outs.

If he is that good at making contact (and I belive he is), why can't/won't he lift the ball into the air when a man is on third base with less than two outs for an RBI sac fly? If he's so good at making contact, why can't/won't he go the other way when the situation calls for it?

The sac fly is infinitely preferable to the double play. He has ONE sac fly this year. Juan Uribe has six. Juan Uribe strikes out more often because he's not as good at putting the bat on the ball. Furthermore, Uribe is much less likely to come to bat with runners on base or in scoring position. (Pods and Iguchi are more likely to get on base than AJ and Crede.) Yet free-swinging Uribe has far more sac flies than cornerstone Konerko. Why?

Yes, Paulie is coaxing walks. But that's a function of pitchers pitching around him. I wholeheartedly agree Paulie needs lineup protection to see more good pitches.

You don't build your lineup around a player who needs that much protection.

Therefore, by definition he is NOT a cornerstone! Is a first baseman worth "cornerstone" payroll dollars if he needs that much lineup protection and routinely can't/won't use his abilities as a professional hitter to get the RBI sac fly instead of the worthless groundout/lineout or GIDP?

whitesox_1
05-31-2005, 01:54 PM
Ok well lets see we have money to go around since we havnt used any of it when we changed our name to the cell. I say trade paul if we need to at the end of the season for someone that has a contract for 2 or more years that will help us win a world series!!!!!!!!!!!! :bandance: :bandance: :supernana: :supernana: :supernana: :bandance:

maurice
05-31-2005, 02:26 PM
Those 2 GiDPs in key situations last night really convinced me that Konerko is a team player, essential to the future success of the Sox.

Updated stats for the player who's paid more than $8.75 million to drive in runs:
AVE w/ runners on: .204
AVE w/ RiSP: .220
AVE w/ runners on & 2 outs: .149
AVE w/ RiSP & 2 outs: .147
AVE over the past 7 days: .182

Looks like he's really breaking out of his slump, especially since his May stats are pretty much identical to his April stats.

maurice
05-31-2005, 02:31 PM
Juan Uribe strikes out more often

I agree with most of your post, FP . . . but you need to take another look at Konerko and Uribe's K totals / rates this season.

Frater Perdurabo
05-31-2005, 02:41 PM
I agree with most of your post, FP . . . but you need to take another look at Konerko and Uribe's K totals / rates this season.

By golly, maurice, you're right. "Free swinger" Uribe is striking out at a 15% clip in 2005, while Konerko's K-ing at a 23% rate this year.

Nevertheless, I'm not advocating moving Uribe up in the order, nor am I even suggesting that Uribe is a better hitter than Paulie.

What I am suggesting is that for the Sox cleanup hitter to have more trouble getting an RBI sac fly than the #9 hitter is really pathetic.

Of the two, Paulie is the better hitter. So why does he GIDP or line out instead of hitting productive RBI sac flys? A far weaker hitter like Uribe has done it six times this year. Paulie's done it once this year. What gives? What's Paulie's problem?

If he can make contact (as he did twice yesterday), clearly he's getting pitches to hit. So it's not a lack of lineup protection or an inability to see the ball. He's not injured. He adjusts his gloves after every swing, so it can't be an equipment failure, either. So what is the problem?

:?:

ondafarm
05-31-2005, 02:48 PM
I think everbody needs some protection and Konerko isn't getting much. With Frank coming back, let's see what happens with Konerko. I believe Dye and AJ will come around and that Rowand dropping down in the order (if Frank takes over the #3 spot) will all get Paulie more protection and he will start to produce more.


That being said, I'm always open to trade offers on virtually everybody on the team, although the offers for PK would have to be pretty solid.

mikehuff
05-31-2005, 02:52 PM
Let's hope people from other teams are looking at Konerko the same way some here are looking at Chavez. We know they can be good hitters, but they aren't doing it right now.

People in Oakland probably have no idea that someone would want Chavez, just as we think nobody would want Konerko.

mikehuff
06-01-2005, 08:01 AM
Let's look at Konerko's performance since he was declared "essential" on May 26th.

5/26 - 1 for 3
5/27 - 1 for 4
5/29 - 0 for 4
5/30 - 0 for 3
5/31 - 0 for 4


That's defintitely something we can't live without.

Frater Perdurabo
06-01-2005, 09:03 AM
Let's look at Konerko's performance since he was declared "essential" on May 26th.

5/26 - 1 for 3
5/27 - 1 for 4
5/29 - 0 for 4
5/30 - 0 for 3
5/31 - 0 for 4


That's defintitely something we can't live without.

But don't his GIDPs with runners in scoring position indicate he's about to break out of his slump?

CLR01
06-01-2005, 12:54 PM
But don't his GIDPs with runners in scoring position indicate he's about to break out of his slump?


Only if he hit the ball hard.