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Fake Chet Lemon
05-24-2005, 03:41 PM
MacJurkoHarry on their show today (5/24) said there are rumors Oakland may start dealing, and the White Sox may be front runners for Eric Chavez! The rumors were from a listener who was out in Oakland listening to sports radio out there. So who knows how legit it all is. If it is true, that would be an amazing move by Kenny. I've had enough of the Joe Crume experiment at 3B.

doublem23
05-24-2005, 03:42 PM
Woo! Two corner infielders hitting below the Mendoza line? Count me in!

mantis1212
05-24-2005, 03:43 PM
What's his contract status? If it means giving up McCarthy, forgot about it. The things are going its hard to think about making any moves.

balke
05-24-2005, 03:43 PM
Woo! Two corner infielders hitting below the Mendoza line? Count me in!

Exactly

jdm2662
05-24-2005, 03:44 PM
What's the score today?
________
VAPORIZER REVIEWS (http://vaporizer.org/)

cleanwsox
05-24-2005, 03:46 PM
I hate dealing with Beane...

Tekijawa
05-24-2005, 03:46 PM
Woo! Two corner infielders hitting below the Mendoza line? Count me in!
Not to mention he makes about 8 million a year more than Joe... NO THANKS!

I actually saw this rumor about a week ago on the Yahoo boards... sounds like people just wasting time to me... I don't think we could use anything that Oakland has...

NorthlakeTom
05-24-2005, 03:47 PM
Chavez's salary this year is $8.5 million. Do you really think JR wants that?

Irishsox1
05-24-2005, 03:48 PM
I'd make the trade, but it depends on who the Sox would give up. Chavez is an improvement over Crede, at every level.

He gone
05-24-2005, 03:49 PM
I brought this up in the " Who's going to be replaced thread" :bandance:

I think Oakland's going to clear up some $$ and Chavez is certainly making some. I don't think Eric is going to struggle all year long and I'd be happy to have him if he came real cheap. NO Mc Carthy, NO Anderson. Maybe a Joe Boarchard :D: and a Joe Crede.

Jjav829
05-24-2005, 03:50 PM
Woo! Two corner infielders hitting below the Mendoza line? Count me in!

Ehh, you gotta be fair though. We're talking about a gold glove 3B who has consistently been a near .280/30/100 guy. I know he's been bad right now, but he has no protection in that lineup. Would you give Chavez anything decent to hit if you were facing that lineup? I know I wouldn't. However, put him 4th between Thomas and Konerko and I'm near certain that he'd return to his 2000-2004 self.

This would be an amazing acquisition, though I'm not getting my hopes up.

balke
05-24-2005, 03:52 PM
Ehh, you gotta be fair though. We're talking about a gold glove 3B who has consistently been a near .280/30/100 guy. I know he's been bad right now, but he has no protection in that lineup. Would you give Chavez anything decent to hit if you were facing that lineup? I know I wouldn't. However, put him 4th between Thomas and Konerko and I'm near certain that he'd return to his 2000-2004 self.

This would be an amazing acquisition, though I'm not getting my hopes up.


Helton will be hitting in the 4 spot by then. -(whatever comes between teal and deep pink)

OEO Magglio
05-24-2005, 03:52 PM
Chavez is a stud plain and simple. I'd take him in a heartbeat, that being said it would cost us a ton and I highly doubt Oakland is going to trade him, considering they just signed him long term.

Mickster
05-24-2005, 03:53 PM
(whatever comes between teal and deep pink)

How about CRAPPY BROWN!

tstrike2000
05-24-2005, 03:58 PM
Call me naive, call me irresponsible, but I'd love to have Chavez at the hot corner. Cons are he is expensive and isn't hitting well so far this year. Pros are he's a perrenial gold glover with a proven track record hitting roughly .275 30 100 the last 5 years, and known as a team guy. We're probably going to be unloading Everett and/or Dye along with possibly Konerko so the money situation could be dealt with. I think he would love Chicago.

infohawk
05-24-2005, 04:00 PM
I actually saw this rumor about a week ago on the Yahoo boards... sounds like people just wasting time to me... I don't think we could use anything that Oakland has...

The first I heard of this "rumor" was on the Oakland A's official fan message board. The rumor was attributed to Ken Rosenthal. Somebody e-mailed Rosenthal about the rumor and Rosenthal apparently verified that he knew nothing about it.

It is possible this "new" rumor was generated because some radio personality in Oakland read the false speculation on the A's board and assumed that Rosenthal had some inside knowledge.

I think a deal for Chavez is unlikely, but you just never know.

skobabe8
05-24-2005, 04:01 PM
Dear BB:

Please dont demand Joe Borchard. He is our best prospect.

Sincerely,
KW

White Sox Randy
05-24-2005, 04:02 PM
I would prefer him over Crede but he signed a 5 year $ 66 milllion contract. He has been injured and is not performing well this year. Still, I might make that trade if we only gave up Crede. Otherwise, it's too risky. That is a lot of money. He also has a lot of trouble hitting lefties.

balke
05-24-2005, 04:03 PM
I think its fairly obvious BB still wants Gio. would it be worth the trade if they ate some Chavez $$$? They probably never would though.

Podzilla_40
05-24-2005, 04:04 PM
I would imagine they'd deal him closer to the deadline, maybe end of June. I'd take him in a heartbeat too, he could be a solid player and probably consistently blast 35 HR in the Cell. That being said I wouldn't deal McCarthy. But with Beane that would probably be the price, he fits the moneyball pitcher mold.

Fake Chet Lemon
05-24-2005, 04:06 PM
Slumping power hitters and throwers from the greater B.A.L.C.O. area cause some concern. So where is Billy Kock pumping gas now a days? But if it gets Crede out of town, we have to explore it.

balke
05-24-2005, 04:07 PM
If we blow Mccarthy on a trade for Chavez, I'll have to question my KW loyalty. Something tells me Mccarthy will be a necessary part of our pitching staff this season.

Tekijawa
05-24-2005, 04:14 PM
I would prefer him over Crede but he signed a 5 year $ 66 milllion contract. He has been injured and is not performing well this year. Still, I might make that trade if we only gave up Crede. Otherwise, it's too risky. That is a lot of money. He also has a lot of trouble hitting lefties.

I didn't realize it was that big of a contract, I wouldn't touch him with a 89 foot pole. I don't want more that 10% of our salary tied up in any player other than a HUGE IMPACT player, Chavez is not one of those, and his skills at this point wouldn't warrent the extra money spent over Crede.

rowand33
05-24-2005, 04:15 PM
BMac isn't going anywhere.

Chavez has been pretty ****ty this year. Hitting poorly against both righties and lefties and in both april and may, but last year he hit .277 and 29 HRs...

I'd take him. He's Eric f'in Chavez!

Crede, Borchard, and _____.

Billy Beane would love Crede and Borchard.

TheOldRoman
05-24-2005, 04:22 PM
I dont think KW would make this trade. I believe there are 3 or 4 years left on Chavez's contract after thigs year. Fields will be ready in 07. While $8.5mil is cheap for top level talent, it can really hurt a team if it is given to a player who isnt producing. Although its most likely, its not a given that Chavez will return to his previous form.

On the other hand, Chavez is the gold standard defensively at 3B in the AL. Crede is good at third, but he is great. Look mose closely at his batting numbers. His numbers over 162 games are almost identical to Konerko's.
Paulie: .276, 29, 100, .345 OBP
Chavez: .273, 30, 100, .350 OBP
When he isnt slumping and hitting .200, Konerko is pretty liked on this board. If The Sox got identical production from a gold glove 3B (which is harder to fill than 1B), and payed him the same salary for the next 4 years that Konerko is making now (he will get more in his next contract), its not a bad deal.
Take into consideration that he is a huge improvement over Crede in every facet of the game.

JRIG
05-24-2005, 04:22 PM
MacJurkoHarry on their show today (5/24) said there are rumors Oakland may start dealing, and the White Sox may be front runners for Eric Chavez! The rumors were from a listener who was out in Oakland listening to sports radio out there. So who knows how legit it all is. If it is true, that would be an amazing move by Kenny. I've had enough of the Joe Crume experiment at 3B.

A listener in Oakland heard a rumor on sports radio there and then called MJH to tell the rumor then all of Chicago heard it too and is now telling their friends the rumor?

Wow! What's the Score?? :nuts:

steranim
05-24-2005, 04:23 PM
Chavez is an overpayed bum (this year) yea, good years past, but at this point in the season it's a little more than a slump, it's a problem. I say no way, not for half of what he's making.

FarWestChicago
05-24-2005, 04:24 PM
Ehh, you gotta be fair though. We're talking about a gold glove 3B who has consistently been a near .280/30/100 guy. I know he's been bad right now, but he has no protection in that lineup. Would you give Chavez anything decent to hit if you were facing that lineup? I know I wouldn't. However, put him 4th between Thomas and Konerko and I'm near certain that he'd return to his 2000-2004 self.

This would be an amazing acquisition, though I'm not getting my hopes up.Word out here is Chavy is really struggling with out the Moneyball 'roids.

seanpmurphy
05-24-2005, 04:29 PM
To say he would still slump if he does come to the Sox isn't really a strong statement. Everyone on these boards are so confident that just by adding Frank back into the line-up, the rest of our hitters will improve. We have a good line up. Chavez is a good player. Plug him into a lineup like ours and I'm sure his production increases. So his salary is big? Time for some team in Chicago to suck it up and actually spend some money for once. No McCarthy involved in this trade.

That being said, I'd definitely would not mind seeing Chavez in black and grey on the hot corner. Plus it's another big name player that baseball fans know. I don't see Crede being a well known 3B in this league.

DickAllen72
05-24-2005, 04:31 PM
I'd take Chavez over Crede in a heartbeat, but I doubt it will happen.

The guy I'd love to see on this White Sox team is Chone Figgins. Again, I doubt we can get him, but he would be a perfect fit. He can play 3B, CF, LF, 2B, SS.... Man would he come in handy when Crede's not producing, Uribe needs a rest, Rowand needs a rest, Pods needs a rest, etc. He sure would have fit in somewhere last night!

I'd hate to see Frank Thomas traded. I want him to retire as a White Sox. But if the Angels were to offer Figgins straight up for Frank (they need a DH badly), I'd have to think long and hard about it.

1917
05-24-2005, 04:55 PM
Am I in the wrong spot or am I the first on the report this? Anyway Mac, Jurko and Harry were discussing the rumor of trading Crede and McCarthy to the A's for Eric Chavez. Good points were made on both sides, thoughts?

Hokiesox
05-24-2005, 04:56 PM
No!

Mickster
05-24-2005, 04:58 PM
Am I in the wrong spot or am I the first on the report this? Anyway Mac, Jurko and Harry were discussing the rumor of trading Crede and McCarthy to the A's for Eric Chavez. Good points were made on both sides, thoughts?

:chunks

MRKARNO
05-24-2005, 05:05 PM
Trading McCarthy is a terrible idea all around. Trade El Duque. Trade Contreras. But McCarthy could be ours for very cheap until 2007 and relatively cheap until 2010 (and that's without any extension). Trading him would be utterly brainless.

infohawk
05-24-2005, 05:09 PM
I'd make the trade, but it depends on who the Sox would give up. Chavez is an improvement over Crede, at every level.

Although a Chavez trade is most probably just a rumor, it's fun to speculate.

The assumption behind dealing Chavez would be a recognition by Beane that his window of opportunity has closed and some rebuilding is necessary. The A's probably cannot justify a big contract like Chavez if they won't be contending for a couple of years. Chavez's salary becomes even more onerous since the A's took on Jason Kendall's bloated contract. Meanwhile, the A's are reportedly unhappy with Byrnes in left field and Hatteburg at first. Erubial Durazo at DH and Kotsay in center field are getting to the point where they will become increasingly expensive.

Based on his needs, therefore, the Sox might make a good trading partner for Beane. The A's have already begun to rebuild their starting rotation. Position players are primarily what Beane needs. I would conjecture that Beane would want Josh Fields, a cheap replacement for Chavez that the A's could control for seven years. They traded away their best third-base prospect, Mark Teahan, to the Royals in the three-way trade last year that landed them Octavio Dotel. I'm sure Beane would also want McCarthy, but to me that is a deal-breaker. It's just too hard to find a good, young starter with that kind of composure. Surely Beane would want one of the Sox pitchers at some level, though.

Beane might be interested in a guy like Casey Rogowski to play first base or DH. Rogowski is a Beane-type of player in that he draws a lot of walks and has consistently produced a high .OBP. He could possibly be a replacement for Hatteburg, who the A's are reportedly looking to dump. Acquiring a first-baseman might not be of interest to the A's, though, because they already have a well-regarded prospect to bring up. Perhaps Rogowski could be a 1B/DH type of player. Beane could also be interested in Brian Anderson or Ryan Sweeney. Each of them have decent .OBP rates. One of them could join Nick Swisher in what could be the makings of a good, young outfield.

As for the Sox, they would get an All-Star first basemen who hits for power, gets on base and plays stellar defense. Chavez would add another left-handed bat to the line-up and would help the Sox win right now. The Sox could afford his salary because, difficult as it is to say, there is a very good chance Thomas won't be back next year.

1917
05-24-2005, 05:10 PM
I would do Crede and a Cuban for Chavez and maybe another Minor Leaguer, but no B-Mac attack

Jjav829
05-24-2005, 05:23 PM
I would do Crede and a Cuban for Chavez and maybe another Minor Leaguer, but no B-Mac attack

LOL, you're joking right? An all-star 3B who has won 4 straight gold gloves and is a consistent 30/100 player for a borderline starting 3B and one of two old, injury prone and unreliable starting pitchers. Quick, get Billy Beane on the phone! He's be all over this one!

BMac isn't going anywhere.

Chavez has been pretty ****ty this year. Hitting poorly against both righties and lefties and in both april and may, but last year he hit .277 and 29 HRs...

I'd take him. He's Eric f'in Chavez!

Crede, Borchard, and _____.

Billy Beane would love Crede and Borchard.

You have to be joking. Teal is the color we use to indicate sarcasm/jokes.

Here's a word of advice to all as we get closer to trading season. Before you propose some extremely lopsided trade proposal, try to look at it from the other teams perspective and ask yourself, "Would I do this trade if I was on the other side?"

Any trade for Eric Chavez is going to require at least one top prospect. By top prospect I am not referring to Casey Rogowski. I'm talking Anderson, Sweeney, Fields or McCarthy. Eric Chavez is one of the best players at this position. GMs don't give away talent like this. Beane is going to want young, cheap players. That means eliminate all high salary veterans.

This whole trade idea might be unrealistic, but at least try to discuss it with some realism.

JB98
05-24-2005, 05:28 PM
No way I'd make this trade today. Maybe in July, but not now. Chavez has to prove he can still hit before I would trade *anybody* for him. He isn't worth a bag of balls right now.

FarWestChicago
05-24-2005, 05:30 PM
No way I'd make this trade today. Maybe in July, but not now. Chavez has to prove he can still hit before I would trade *anybody* for him. He isn't worth a bag of balls right now.He seriously needs to prove he's not a mini-Giambi.

balke
05-24-2005, 05:33 PM
it just makes me angry even to think about it. Joe can play 3rd, he botched that catch last night, but you rarely notice him messing up, and he never gets respect for the great plays he makes down the line.

So you want to replace him with a bat with a glove, that's fine. What good is that going to do you if your 5th starter ends up being Josh Stewart later in the season? Or more likely, Felix Diaz, Bejanaro, Munoz, Hermanson, Cotts, etc.

I still think Beane is on the prowl for Gio. At least we aren't positive about Gio yet, and you didn't tease the Sox fans with him. Save B-mac for a real trade, like the pipe dream of Helton.

ScottsdaleSoxFan
05-24-2005, 08:03 PM
The A's dont need any more young pitchers but they would probably want Crede and/or Sweeney or Anderson for Chavez. Personally, I would give up Crede and 1 of those 2 in a second for Chavez. If we keep either Sweeney or Anderson they will be our future rightfielders.

shaunburnette
05-24-2005, 08:09 PM
maybe they will take dye for him?:?:?

JRIG
05-24-2005, 08:43 PM
:rolling:

This entire thread should be written in deep pink.

Chavez is Beane's golden boy. He signed him -- not Giambi, not Tejada, not Mulder, not Hudson -- a long-term contact.

He's not trading him. Especially not for any combination of Crede or El Duque or Borchard or Jermaine Dye or Paul Konerko.

:kukoo:

balke
05-24-2005, 09:06 PM
is the "rolling" icon coming up with the sign "Warning stealing bandwidth is illegal" and a skull to anyone else? I've seen it in like 12 threads.

Edit: and now its gone?

Flight #24
05-24-2005, 09:24 PM
Any trade for Eric Chavez is going to require at least one top prospect. By top prospect I am not referring to Casey Rogowski. I'm talking Anderson, Sweeney, Fields or McCarthy. Eric Chavez is one of the best players at this position. GMs don't give away talent like this. Beane is going to want young, cheap players. That means eliminate all high salary veterans.



Beane can ask for whatever he wants, but there's no way that I'd trade a McCarthy or even Anderson for a decent but not great hitting 3B. Yes, Chavez is among the top 5-8 at his position (prior to this year - this year he sucks), but that speaks as much to a lack of talent there as anything. If I'm trading either a stud young pitcher or a 5-tool stud OF AND assuming about 10-mil in salary on a long-term deal, I'd better get a franchise caliber hitter, and he ain't it. And that's before adding in the potential BALCO factor.

Just because he's Beane's golden boy doesn't mean he's "all that". If Billy wants to dump that salary, he ain't getting top prospects back.

batmanZoSo
05-24-2005, 10:38 PM
I'd give up anyone but BMac to get Chavez.

FarWestChicago
05-24-2005, 10:50 PM
I'd give up anyone but BMac to get Chavez.I would really want to make sure he's not a mini-Giambi before I gave up crap. If he's a 'roid boy, which is highly possible considering his team and location, he'll never be the same without them.

Brian26
05-24-2005, 10:53 PM
Chavez is a stud plain and simple. I'd take him in a heartbeat, that being said it would cost us a ton and I highly doubt Oakland is going to trade him, considering they just signed him long term.

Anyone who says they don't want Chavez is ****ing nuts. He's a total stud and would improve this lineup tremendously.

Brian26
05-24-2005, 10:56 PM
No way I'd make this trade today. Maybe in July, but not now. Chavez has to prove he can still hit before I would trade *anybody* for him. He isn't worth a bag of balls right now.

Good grief. He has proven he can hit over the past four years. He's having a slow first 6 weeks of the season. He'll come around. And hopefully he'll be on our side when he does (remember, we still have one more series in Oakland).

FarWestChicago
05-24-2005, 10:58 PM
Good grief. He has proven he can hit over the past four years. He's having a slow first 6 weeks of the season. He'll come around. And hopefully he'll be on our side when he does (remember, we still have one more series in Oakland).He has proven he can hit over the last four years, very possibly as 'roided up as Sham-ME. Settle down and think about it. Would you give up garbage for Giambi at this point? Chavy needs to prove he can hit in a "testing" environment.

santo=dorf
05-24-2005, 11:06 PM
Anyone who says they don't want Chavez is ****ing nuts. He's a total stud and would improve this lineup tremendously.
He has a monster contract and he gets paid like a slugger. If he took steroids he should get his money back because he has never had a season with an OPS of .900.

If Reinsy and Co. were willing to take on a monster contract, I would rather see Helton than Chavez on the southside.

Jerome
05-24-2005, 11:24 PM
On the "JD and the OG show (Dickerson, a sox fan is cool but O'Golnik is a tool, and not just bc he's a cub fan.) they were talking about a rumor that they / another caller overheard on the west coast. It might have been one of those things where some guy whose grandpa is JR's business partner overheard something but still I think it needs to be discussed.

The trade was
Oakland gets: P Brandon Mccarthy and 3B Joe Crede
White Sox get: 3B Eric Chavez

As soon as i heard that i thought immediately of this web site. Can you imagine how many different groups would be either up in arms or in love with this trade?

The FOBB's (myself included) would not know what to say. Did BB rob KW like he always does (thats FOBB green, not teal) or did KW rob him?
The KW lovers would not know what to say, because they would be foreced to defend the trade while contradicting their previous love for BMac.
The "BMac for cooperstown" fans would cry their eyes out and vow never to cheer for the Sox again.

The only people who would know what to say is the KW haters. THey would devote the rest of their lives to the "Brandon Mccarthy watch", and follow his no doubt numerous Cy Young career.

I would personally not make this trade because i belive that BMac is the real deal. He has all those K's but is not a flamethrower, which says to me that he has the right "stuff up there" and good control of the zone.

Chavez, while i love the guy, has had a bad year this year, as have all the A's offensively. It kind of leads me to belive that he may have been on the Jason Giambi strength plan. (I have no proof or reason of this; I just know that he, like all the A's besides Kotsay, are sucking this year).

But think of the record setting thread this trade would case. Freddy Garcia vs Jeremy Reed times 10!

balke
05-25-2005, 12:02 AM
I heard on "the inside" that Sosa was going to the Sox before the season started, and that Chandler was already inked to go to the Spurs.

Rumors are rumors. I'd hate this trade to death (I haven't said to death since I was like 11).

Also, like 3 weeks ago Polanco was already packing for the cubs per Yahoo.

batmanZoSo
05-25-2005, 12:22 AM
I would really want to make sure he's not a mini-Giambi before I gave up crap. If he's a 'roid boy, which is highly possible considering his team and location, he'll never be the same without them.

Did you ever look at him in awe of his size? No. I highly doubt he was on roids. If he was, then so was Konerko. He hit 41 homers last year and .200 this year.....

balke
05-25-2005, 12:37 AM
Beane's got a long way to go in making that trade Even. Maybe Huston Street gets thrown into the mix?

batmanZoSo
05-25-2005, 12:55 AM
Beane's got a long way to go in making that trade Even. Maybe Huston Street gets thrown into the mix?

Now that I think about it, I'd imagine Beane would think long and hard about dealing with KW after he skunked Beane in the Neal Cotts trade. :cool:

balke
05-25-2005, 01:00 AM
He's doing better than Foulke this year at least.

Tragg
05-25-2005, 01:04 AM
Just wait and rent a hitter or two who's in a contract year CHEAP.

Don't tie ourselves in to overpaid players like Chavez.

And don't deal with Beane - he's a dick.

But the most remarkable thing is how as soon as he pitches his major league debut, and well, McCarthy is suddenly on the block. He goes out there, shows a tone of poise, throws strikes and Ks more than a batter an inning so, gee, let's trade him. It's just incredible. Let's put all our eggs into 2005 and PRAY. I'll pass on those odds- I much prefer the odds of winning a WS by putting a contending team out there for the next 5-10 years, which I'll think we'll do. And these young players are integral to that because we have budget constraints. Roll a cuban and Dye off in a year or two at $7.5 mill, add a McCarthy and Sweeney at $2 million. Savings $5.5 mill to upgrade something else or sign MB/Garland.

Lip Man 1
05-25-2005, 01:15 AM
West:

One of Chavez's coaches along the way was Ed Herrmann. I'll contact Ed and see what he can tell me.

Lip

Banix12
05-25-2005, 02:00 AM
Sox have a rotation that includes El Duque, who is 39 and often goes onto the DL with a "tired arm". Not for long but enough that a team usually requires the services of a 6th spot starter. McCarthy so far has shown all signs of being effective insurance for when a pitcher does go down.

KW has lived through the last few years watching the sox just like we have, he knows that sometimes you have to fill holes in the rotation with minor leaguers, often with limited success. He will not trade an effective young minor leaguer, who makes league minimum, for a pricey, struggling 3rd Baseman (last time I checked we have one of our own), or anybody else for that matter. Good pitching doesn't come cheap, and is the most valuable product in baseball.

McCarthy has #1 stuff and has already shut down three major league lineups, 2 in spring training and 1 just this weekend (despite opinions here, cubs are technically a major league lineup).

All conversation about the sox trading this guy should be stopped, KW knows that if he trades him he is gonna be run out of town on a rail and the trade would make the Todd Ritchie trade look good in comparison.

The sox are 18 games above .500, all this trade talk is nuts.

My guess is Mac, Jurko, and Harry had to fill time today and engaged the "rumor" because it sounded controversial. I've worked in talk radio, it happens a lot.

doublem23
05-25-2005, 02:07 AM
He seriously needs to prove he's not a mini-Giambi.

This is a very good point. I would say that some players' past "consistent" numbers might need to be looked at with a grain of salt this year.

owensmouth
05-25-2005, 02:12 AM
Now if he wants to make it Chavez and Crosby for Crede and Uribe...I'd go for that.

stillz
05-25-2005, 11:26 AM
A friend of mine said this was a 'serious' rumor yesterday.. I'm not in Chicago so can any others confirm/deny/speculate?

downstairs
05-25-2005, 11:27 AM
I guess the Shingo-for-Lee trade fell through then??

Damn.

seanpmurphy
05-25-2005, 11:35 AM
I guess the Shingo-for-Lee trade fell through then??

Damn.

:rolling: :rolling:

I almost forgot about that. Maybe KW can work out a three-way deal!

clee-hegone
05-25-2005, 11:35 AM
i guess im not the only 1 hearing the wsox/a's rumors.

CHISOXFAN13
05-25-2005, 11:37 AM
A friend of mine said this was a 'serious' rumor yesterday.. I'm not in Chicago so can any others confirm/deny/speculate?

A serious rumor is not one that starts when a caller into Mac, Jurko and Harry starts it.

Cubsuck_a_lot
05-25-2005, 11:40 AM
this would work. id hate to see yet another highly touted prospect be lost, but we need to replace at least one of the infield corners. defensively, they're puttin on a great show (paulies 9th inning defensive play of the week last evening v the LAAOACWCUSA (la angels of anahiem of california of the west coast of the nuited states)), but offensively, it makes me sick to look at our third and first basemen. something needs to be done. maybe not immediately, but if this ship doesnt even out soon, a trade at the infield corners needs to be made.

fusillirob1983
05-25-2005, 11:43 AM
Considering El Duque is on the DL right now, I'd have to say this trade doesn't make much sense.

PatK
05-25-2005, 11:43 AM
Chavez is hitting around the Mendoza line, IIRC

Unregistered
05-25-2005, 11:46 AM
Right, so as unlikely it was yesterday that we'd be trading ANYTHING for a third baseman hitting below the Mendoza line, now we're trading McCarthy AND Crede for him?! *****. :rolleyes:

:threadsucks

JRIG
05-25-2005, 11:49 AM
Right, so as unlikely it was yesterday that we'd be trading ANYTHING for a third baseman hitting below the Mendoza line,



Hey, he's up to .224 now! :worship:

TDog
05-25-2005, 11:55 AM
Consider that Chavez is under contract to make $8.5 million a year. Then consider that Joe Crede and BMac combined earn less than $850,000 this year.

Does anyone see this as the kind of deal the White Sox would make?

Unregistered
05-25-2005, 12:14 PM
Hey, he's up to .224 now! :worship:LOL, point-counterpoint.

hawkjt
05-25-2005, 12:47 PM
Chavez will earn almost 15 million a year for the next four years. Does anyone want that kind of cash (20% of total payroll) tied up for the next four years in a guy hitting .224? gimme a break.

Brian26
05-25-2005, 12:55 PM
Consider that Chavez is under contract to make $8.5 million a year. Then consider that Joe Crede and BMac combined earn less than $850,000 this year.

Does anyone see this as the kind of deal the White Sox would make?

KW would request that Beane eat part of Chavez' contract. He's been successful in the past at doing this (ie R. Alomar in '03, Everett in '03).

Jjav829
05-25-2005, 01:13 PM
Chavez will earn almost 15 million a year for the next four years. Does anyone want that kind of cash (20% of total payroll) tied up for the next four years in a guy hitting .224? gimme a break.

First off, you are way off in the money. Chavez won't make anywhere near $15 million. In fact, the highest amount he'll make in any year is $12 million, and that is in 2010. He's making $8.5 million this year. He'll make $9.5 million in 2006 and 2007, followed by two years of $11.5 million. There's a $12.5 million option for 2011 with a $3 million buyout.

Second is just a general comment not directed just at you. It amazes me how much stock people put into the first 7 and a half weeks of the season. We're talking about a player who over the past 5 seasons has been one of the top 3B in baseball. This isn't someone who had one good year and is now falling back to his normal performance level. It just amazes me when people refer to his current average as if he's some piece of crap. Does anyone actually think Chavez will hit .224 over the whole season? If you do, please explain. I'd love to hear the explanation.

BTW, among other players I wouldn't want on my team are: Manny Ramirez - .242, Jim Thome - .185, Vernon Wells - .228, Victor Martinez - .191, Mike Lowell - .190, J.D. Drew - .248, and Lance Berkman - .179. I mean who needs any of these scrubs? *****. :rolleyes:

Flight #24
05-25-2005, 01:36 PM
Second is just a general comment not directed just at you. It amazes me how much stock people put into the first 7 and a half weeks of the season. We're talking about a player who over the past 5 seasons has been one of the top 3B in baseball. This isn't someone who had one good year and is now falling back to his normal performance level. It just amazes me when people refer to his current average as if he's some piece of crap. Does anyone actually think Chavez will hit .224 over the whole season? If you do, please explain. I'd love to hear the explanation.



No, but I don't want to trade a top prospect AND pay 9-12mil/yr to a guy who's never posted an OPS north of .900. Now also factor in the season-beginning slump (while not a huge factor, it's a factor), and the possible Balco-effect.

Yes, he's among the better 3Bs, but that's because there aren't a lot of stars at the position. His career best OPS is .898. I can go get a Vinny Castilla/David Bell/Shea Hillenbrand to post an OPS within 50-70points of that at less than half the price, and keep BMac/Anderson/Sweeney. I'd rather do that and put the savings into upgrading another position to a true franchise player than pay it and lose the prospects for Chavez.

TheOldRoman
05-25-2005, 01:45 PM
No, but I don't want to trade a top prospect AND pay 9-12mil/yr to a guy who's never posted an OPS north of .900. Now also factor in the season-beginning slump (while not a huge factor, it's a factor), and the possible Balco-effect.

Yes, he's among the better 3Bs, but that's because there aren't a lot of stars at the position. His career best OPS is .898. I can go get a Vinny Castilla/David Bell/Shea Hillenbrand to post an OPS within 50-70points of that at less than half the price, and keep BMac/Anderson/Sweeney. I'd rather do that and put the savings into upgrading another position to a true franchise player than pay it and lose the prospects for Chavez.
I agree. As I posted earlier in this thread, Chavez has had almost identical numbers to Konerko over his career. Per 162 games, both batter in the .270s, both had 29-30 homers, and both had 100 RBI. While Paulie has been a good hitter, he has been far from great. Chavez is great at defensively, but his bat hasnt been the best. What if he was BALCO boy? If his numbers nose dive like Giambi's did, will he still be worth $8-12 mil a year? If he was on roids and now sucks at the dish, the Sox would essentially be paying $9mil a year for the 3B equivalent of Rey Ordonez in his prime.

Charno
05-25-2005, 01:46 PM
Crede for Chavez? Hell yeah.

Jjav829
05-25-2005, 02:09 PM
No, but I don't want to trade a top prospect AND pay 9-12mil/yr to a guy who's never posted an OPS north of .900. Now also factor in the season-beginning slump (while not a huge factor, it's a factor), and the possible Balco-effect.

Yes, he's among the better 3Bs, but that's because there aren't a lot of stars at the position. His career best OPS is .898. I can go get a Vinny Castilla/David Bell/Shea Hillenbrand to post an OPS within 50-70points of that at less than half the price, and keep BMac/Anderson/Sweeney. I'd rather do that and put the savings into upgrading another position to a true franchise player than pay it and lose the prospects for Chavez.

If you're comfortable with Shea Hillebrand at 3B, then have fun with that. But if I'm going to pay big money for a position - and $9 million really isn't that much - I'd rather do it at 3B where it's harder to find a player like Chavez than a position like 1B. Keep in mind Chavez is hitting in one of the better pitchers parks in baseball. He's not doing this against the watered down pitching in Coors Field or in a launching pad like Citizens Bank Park. Chavez is now 27 and coming into the prime of his career. He showed much greater patience at the plate last year. He's consistently been a 30/100 guy and plays the best defense at 3B of anyone not named Scott Rolen. Frankly, I can't understand why anyone wouldn't love to get a guy like this.

The only possible scare I can see is the BALCO thing. Even that isn't a big worry IMO as Chavez doesn't rely on pure strength. He's more of a finesse player. In other words, he's not looking to clear his hips and crush the ball as hard as possible. He can and will hit to any field. His contract isn't an albatross and it's not the kind of contract that will cripple a franchise, ultimately forcing the team to get rid of someone else. Combine all of this and I can't see why the Sox shouldn't go after Chavez. Oh wait, he's hitting .224. Throw everything he's done in his career and all the tools he has out the window. He's finished.

Flight #24
05-25-2005, 02:42 PM
If you're comfortable with Shea Hillebrand at 3B, then have fun with that. But if I'm going to pay big money for a position - and $9 million really isn't that much - I'd rather do it at 3B where it's harder to find a player like Chavez than a position like 1B. Keep in mind Chavez is hitting in one of the better pitchers parks in baseball. He's not doing this against the watered down pitching in Coors Field or in a launching pad like Citizens Bank Park. Chavez is now 27 and coming into the prime of his career. He showed much greater patience at the plate last year. He's consistently been a 30/100 guy and plays the best defense at 3B of anyone not named Scott Rolen. Frankly, I can't understand why anyone wouldn't love to get a guy like this.



I'm not that comfortable with Hillebrand at 3B. But concurrently, I'm not that comfortable with having my offensive cornerstone/franchise guy being a good-but-not-great hitter. And yes, I'd much rather have Hillebrand, BMac, and 4-6mil than Eric Chavez. Heck, if I'm going to add salary, I'd much rather trade a lesser prospect for Todd Helton and a little bit of cash to make his salary $15mil/yr.

DickAllen72
05-25-2005, 06:32 PM
Crede for Chavez? Hell yeah.

I'd do that in a heartbeat.

But not Crede and McCarthy. Forget that.

Crede and Gio?

balke
05-25-2005, 07:46 PM
Chavez has GIDP'd and received his 8th error on the season tonight. (And I'm trading him and Wade Miller for Beltran, shhhh!)

swingkid02
05-26-2005, 12:28 PM
One of my buddies at work was trying to tell me that the Sox were looking at trading Brendon McCarthy and Crede for Eric Chavez.

I haven't heard anything on Sportscenter or seen anything written so I assume he is off his rocker. Also... he's a Cubs fan so I have to question any sort of baseball knowledge that he thinks he has.

Has anyone heard of this... I think it would be a bum deal for us if it is true.

J Co
05-26-2005, 12:30 PM
There's a long thread on that rumor in the 'What's the Score' forum...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=50832

Tragg
05-26-2005, 12:41 PM
Right, so as unlikely it was yesterday that we'd be trading ANYTHING for a third baseman hitting below the Mendoza line, now we're trading McCarthy AND Crede for him?!

Come on, man, haven't you heard? We want Barry Zito too.

jehosaphat
05-26-2005, 12:47 PM
Consider that Chavez is under contract to make $8.5 million a year. Then consider that Joe Crede and BMac combined earn less than $850,000 this year.

Does anyone see this as the kind of deal the White Sox would make?

I've read through most of this thread, and for what it is worth, I can't imagine we'd be that stupid, for all of the reasons provided.

The one reason I didn't see (forgive me if I missed it) is that BMac becomes the 5th starter if Hernandez goes down. Sure, Chavez is a minor upgrade over Crede, but it will be next to impossible to find a credible 5th starter in the middle of the season. Who do have to trade? Not to mention 2006, 2007, 2008 ...... Hernandez is not going to last for the next four seasons and BMac is a very good bet to become a quality starter along the lines of Buerhle, Garcia, Garland, etc.

hawkjt
05-26-2005, 01:58 PM
I noted that Chavez has 8 errors which is one less than the worst in the league. Joe has 4. I know it means nothing but he is hitting 20 pts lower and has twice as many errors and people seriously want to trade a cheap Joe along with our best prospect for him. What if this the beginning of the downturn in his career. See the Cubs having to pay the O's to take Sosa.

The worst nightmare is to be in position of having to eat salary of a guy you give away.

kruzer31
05-29-2005, 02:29 PM
A friend of mine told me yesturday that he heard sometime last week on the radio that their was mention of a trade of Joe Crede and Brandon McCarthry to Oakland for Eric Chavez. I didnt believe him but he claims he isnt bsing. I was wondering if this has been posted and if anyone else heard anything about this. If it is a possibility what do you guys think about it?

Jeff

Over By There
05-29-2005, 02:32 PM
There was a thread about this in What's the Score a few days ago. That's where this thread should go, too.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=50832

Jurr
06-02-2005, 10:03 AM
Gregor's tossing around the rumors, and a name that every Sox fan's been thinking about comes onto print for the first time.

Especially with Chavez's contract and having to deal McCarthy, I wouldn't pull the trigger on this one. Your thoughts???

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/beatwriters.asp?column=gregor&id=56482

RKMeibalane
06-02-2005, 10:04 AM
I think Gregor has too much time on his hands.

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 10:07 AM
One thing you NEVER, EVER trade is good young pitchers that are close to major league ready. McCarthy is absolutely off the table as far as I'm concerned.

Spicoli
06-02-2005, 10:08 AM
One thing you NEVER, EVER trade is good young pitchers that are close to major league ready. McCarthy is absolutely off the table as far as I'm concerned.

Absolutley. McCarthy should not be traded.

bluestar
06-02-2005, 10:10 AM
As much as I want to see the Sox win a World Series before I die, there is no freakin' way I would give McCarthy for Chavez, much less add Crede to the deal.

If the A's are so hot to dump payroll and deal Chavez, they should consider Crede and a lesser prospect, certainly not McCarthy.

mdep524
06-02-2005, 10:17 AM
If the A's are so hot to dump payroll and deal Chavez, they should consider Crede and a lesser prospect, certainly not McCarthy. BINGO! If the A's are indeed hot to trade the guy, they'll take less than McCarthy, who is off limits. Otherwise, its not going to happen. Frankly, I don't see it happening anyway, but this rumor has taken on a life of its own!

I_Liked_Manuel
06-02-2005, 10:17 AM
neil cotts was supposed to be the next big thing.

bring in chavez. our offense is terrible, and we've got the pitching staff to do it this year.

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2005, 10:18 AM
One thing you NEVER, EVER trade is good young pitchers that are close to major league ready. McCarthy is absolutely off the table as far as I'm concerned.

Not even for a player who virtually would guarantee a trip to the World Series? What if St. Louis offered Albert Pujols for McCarthy? Would you turn up your nose at an offer like that?

I am NOT saying Chavez is that player. But to say you would never trade McCarthy under any circumstances isn't wise, either.

SoxxoS
06-02-2005, 10:19 AM
neil cotts was supposed to be the next big thing.

bring in chavez. our offense is terrible, and we've got the pitching staff to do it this year.

Problem is, Chavez has been terrible.

And the Neal Cotts argument is complete strawman. XXX didn't work...so XXX will NEVER work is BS.

RKMeibalane
06-02-2005, 10:20 AM
neil cotts was supposed to be the next big thing.

bring in chavez. our offense is terrible, and we've got the pitching staff to do it this year.

Use capital letters when starting sentences, please.

SoxFan48
06-02-2005, 10:20 AM
Kenny Williams is desparate for a World Series ring. He would trade Brandon McCarhty, Brian Anderson, his mother and anyone else that would bring a World Series Championship to the South Side.

Hendu
06-02-2005, 10:21 AM
If the A's are so hot to dump payroll and deal Chavez, they should consider Crede and a lesser prospect, certainly not McCarthy.

Exactly. if B Mac is part of the deal, I'd expect the A's to eat almost all of Chavez' salary, but I can't see that happening. Crede and a lesser prospect or 2 with the Sox taking on Chavez' contract is more realistic. Maybe we have another Chad Bradford-type pitcher in the system so Billy Bean can fleece us yet again.

Mickster
06-02-2005, 10:21 AM
Not even for a player who virtually would guarantee a trip to the World Series? What if St. Louis offered Albert Pujols for McCarthy? Would you turn up your nose at an offer like that?

I am NOT saying Chavez is that player. But to say you would never trade McCarthy under any circumstances isn't wise, either.

But what would we do with Konerko and his awesome 3-6-3 DP's??????

bluestar
06-02-2005, 10:22 AM
neil cotts was supposed to be the next big thing.

bring in chavez. our offense is terrible, and we've got the pitching staff to do it this year.

Cotts has never displayed the poise or maturity McCarthy has. Besides, I think Cotts could still become a very good starting pitcher someday if he could learn another effective pitch or two.

tstrike2000
06-02-2005, 10:22 AM
Yeah, we talked about this in the "I bet we trade BMac" thread. I think KW's traded enough young pitching in the past to know that McCarthy should be untouchable. I would definitely get Chavez for Crede but what else Beane would want might be too much.

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2005, 10:24 AM
If anyone wants to suggest trades, etc., they ought to look at where the Sox have problems.

Too many people point to Joe Crede as the problem with the Sox offense.

The problem with the Sox offense is not the #8 hitter or defense at third base!

The biggest problem with the Sox offense is the lack of production from their cleanup hitter!

Mickster
06-02-2005, 10:28 AM
If anyone wants to suggest trades, etc., they ought to look at where the Sox have problems.

Too many people point to Joe Crede as the problem with the Sox offense.

The problem with the Sox offense is not the #8 hitter or defense at third base!

The biggest problem with the Sox offense is the lack of production from their cleanup hitter!

Let's see what happens with Konerko's average with Frank in the lineup regularly. Give him a couple of weeks and go from there. I think you will see that Frank has a huge impact on Konerko, Dye, etc...

Harry Chappas
06-02-2005, 10:31 AM
Even Chavez thinks he'll get traded if the A's don't make a miraculous recovery, per his interview on the Score yesterday. However, I'm not so sure he represents such a slam dunk upgrade over what we have (Crede) and I sure as h*ll wouldn't part with McCarthy for him. Chavez is currently hovering around .200 and while that number will likely go up, there's no denying that he's been a major disappointment thus far this season.

mweflen
06-02-2005, 10:33 AM
If anyone wants to suggest trades, etc., they ought to look at where the Sox have problems.

Too many people point to Joe Crede as the problem with the Sox offense.

The problem with the Sox offense is not the #8 hitter or defense at third base!

The biggest problem with the Sox offense is the lack of production from their cleanup hitter!

Yes, but if we got Chavez, we'd have a cleanup hitter, and KonGIDPerko could be dropped down to 5 or 6. Chavez has been a stud for 5 straight seasons, and he's 27 to boot. There is no reason to doubt that he would start returning to his career averages given a change of scene.

I don't hate the idea of trading for him. Even McCarthy - just one more future HOF pitching prospect to line the dustbin of history with our other "sure-fire" prospects. In baseball, a 27-year-old bird in the hand is worth 3 in the bush.

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2005, 10:40 AM
Yes, but if we got Chavez, we'd have a cleanup hitter, and KonGIDPerko could be dropped down to 5 or 6. Chavez has been a stud for 5 straight seasons, and he's 27 to boot. There is no reason to doubt that he would start returning to his career averages given a change of scene.

I don't hate the idea of trading for him. Even McCarthy - just one more future HOF pitching prospect to line the dustbin of history with our other "sure-fire" prospects. In baseball, a 27-year-old bird in the hand is worth 3 in the bush.

If given the choice between the Chavez deal and Randar's proposal to trade Sweeney, Konerko and Everett/Dye for Helton and cash (Colorado's motivation to dump Helton's contract is implicit in such a trade), I'd choose the Colorado option in a heartbeat.

Tekijawa
06-02-2005, 10:42 AM
I'd trade Crede and McCarthy for Albert Puljos or Alex Rodregez, that's about it... I'd trade Crede strait up for a much longer list!

skobabe8
06-02-2005, 10:43 AM
I wouldnt mind seeing Chavez in this lineup. That being said, you cant speculate what the trade would be without looking at the demand for Chavez. What other teams out there want to add a 3B for the playoff push? And, more importantly, what can they offer the A's versus what we can offer?

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 10:46 AM
FWIW, I'd put a reliable bullpen arm as a much higher priority over another hitter. The Sox currently have FIVE of their regulars hitting below .250. They're not all going to suck all year. Maybe one or two of them will, but it's impossible to know now which ones.

As it stands now, they have only four relievers that I have any confidence in at all: Hermanson, Marte, Politte, Cotts. That's not going to do it. I'd rather have Adkins than Vizcaino and who knows when/if Shingo is going to get his head on straight. IMO, this is a much bigger problem.

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2005, 10:53 AM
:tomatoaward:

Earned thanks to the merged thread!

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2005, 10:57 AM
I'd trade Crede and McCarthy for Albert Puljos or Alex Rodregez, that's about it... I'd trade Crede strait up for a much longer list!

This is precisely the attitude that prevented Ron Schueler from pulling the trigger on deals that would have improved the Sox in 93, 95, 96 and 97. Remember untouchables like Scott Ruffcorn? I'm not saying McCarthy is Ruffcorn (shudder), but neither should anyone put McCarthy in the Hall of Fame just yet. Seriously, this McCarthy worship is like the Jeremy Reed worship of last year.

:rolleyes:

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 11:03 AM
This is precisely the attitude that prevented Ron Schueler from pulling the trigger on deals that would have improved the Sox in 93, 95, 96 and 97. Remember untouchables like Scott Ruffcorn? I'm not saying McCarthy is Ruffcorn (shudder), but neither should anyone put McCarthy in the Hall of Fame just yet. Seriously, this McCarthy worship is like the Jeremy Reed worship of last year.

:rolleyes:
The big difference is outfielders are a lot more replacable than starting pitchers. McCarthy is off the table as far as I'm concerned.

mdep524
06-02-2005, 11:22 AM
FWIW, I'd put a reliable bullpen arm as a much higher priority over another hitter. The Sox currently have FIVE of their regulars hitting below .250. They're not all going to suck all year. Maybe one or two of them will, but it's impossible to know now which ones.

As it stands now, they have only four relievers that I have any confidence in at all: Hermanson, Marte, Politte, Cotts. That's not going to do it. I'd rather have Adkins than Vizcaino and who knows when/if Shingo is going to get his head on straight. IMO, this is a much bigger problem. ON2, I agree that straightening out the bullpen should be a top priority at this point. I wonder if Adkins, Baj or even Jenks or Meaux could be called up and contribute in place of Vizcaino, Walker (already demoted) or Shingo.

mjharrison72
06-02-2005, 11:26 AM
Sorry I'm just chiming in now... I am sure Chavez is probably a better player than Crede, but I'm just not sure what the point of making this trade would be.
:dunno:

The stats don't bear out that Chavez is some kind of amazing hitter, as some of you seem to think. Sounds like a waste of money and prospects to me.

ozzman
06-02-2005, 11:35 AM
http://www.athleticsnation.com/story/2005/6/2/94424/31703


seems like all of the oakland fans think that crede and bmac is underpaying for chavez. LOL.

Unregistered
06-02-2005, 11:47 AM
Sorry I'm just chiming in now... I am sure Chavez is probably a better player than Crede, but I'm just not sure what the point of making this trade would be.
:dunno:
Although not the point, the RESULT of taking on Chavez' salary would most likely mean we won't be resigning any of our current players...

dcb33
06-02-2005, 12:03 PM
FWIW, I'd put a reliable bullpen arm as a much higher priority over another hitter. The Sox currently have FIVE of their regulars hitting below .250. They're not all going to suck all year. Maybe one or two of them will, but it's impossible to know now which ones.

As it stands now, they have only four relievers that I have any confidence in at all: Hermanson, Marte, Politte, Cotts. That's not going to do it. I'd rather have Adkins than Vizcaino and who knows when/if Shingo is going to get his head on straight. IMO, this is a much bigger problem.


I couldn't agree more. Over the last month it has become obvious that the bullpen is mediocre at best and needs to improve if the Sox expect to go anywhere. Shingo, Viz, and Walker are garbage, Cotts is inconsistent, Marte tends to choke in high pressure situations, and there is no way Hermanson is going to keep pitching at the level he is now once the rest of the league gets another look or two at him. We need at least one, if not two solid, veteran arms in the pen to be considered serious pennant contenders.


As far as Chavez is concerned, the A's can keep him. He represents only a marginal improvement over Crede and with Chavez making 8.5 million the Sox will be taking on a huge amount in salary. That would severely restrict what KW can do this coming offseason.

Frater Perdurabo
06-02-2005, 12:06 PM
http://www.athleticsnation.com/story/2005/6/2/94424/31703


seems like all of the oakland fans think that crede and bmac is underpaying for chavez. LOL.

Only fans of other teams overrate their own players and prospects. :?:

Jjav829
06-02-2005, 12:15 PM
This is precisely the attitude that prevented Ron Schueler from pulling the trigger on deals that would have improved the Sox in 93, 95, 96 and 97. Remember untouchables like Scott Ruffcorn? I'm not saying McCarthy is Ruffcorn (shudder), but neither should anyone put McCarthy in the Hall of Fame just yet. Seriously, this McCarthy worship is like the Jeremy Reed worship of last year.

:rolleyes:


No kidding. You've been spot on with every post here. I can't believe some of the things being said about McCarthy. Look, I'm as big a fan of McCarthy as anyone here. I'd love to see him be a top of the line starter for the Sox for years to come. I like everything about the way he pitches, handles himself, etc. But the business of baseball dictates that you can't keep a guy just because you like him as a player. The truth is that we don't know exactly what will become of McCarthy. To hear people act like McCarthy is already a major league star is absurd. I can name about 100 players of the top of my head that I would trade him for, and that's without even stopping to think about it. I've said this before and I'll say it again, top prospects do not equal top major league talent. Most of the 100 players I'm talking about would require a lot more than Bmac to get the trade done.

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 12:26 PM
ON2, I agree that straightening out the bullpen should be a top priority at this point. I wonder if Adkins, Baj or even Jenks or Meaux could be called up and contribute in place of Vizcaino, Walker (already demoted) or Shingo.Adkins: 50.2 IP 6.93 ERA
Bajeneru: 25.2 IP 1.05 ERA
Sanders: 27.0 IP 3.67 ERA
Jenks(AA): 25.1 IP 3.55 ERA
Meaux(AA): 37.0 IP 1.95 ERA

Keep in mind the AAA numbers are inflated by their ballpark while the AA numbers are deflated by theirs. Other than Adkins, any of these guys is probably a better back-of-the-bullpen option than Vizcaino.

BTW, has anyone verified whether Vizcaino has options left? Just from his history it looks like he might have one left.

Flight #24
06-02-2005, 12:44 PM
Although not the point, the RESULT of taking on Chavez' salary would most likely mean we won't be resigning any of our current players...

With one exception, given the guys who are FAs after this year, that's not necessarily a BAD thing. The exception is Frank Thomas, but I fully expect them to come to terms on some sort of extension at <$10mil/yr.

Flight #24
06-02-2005, 12:47 PM
No kidding. You've been spot on with every post here. I can't believe some of the things being said about McCarthy. Look, I'm as big a fan of McCarthy as anyone here. I'd love to see him be a top of the line starter for the Sox for years to come. I like everything about the way he pitches, handles himself, etc. But the business of baseball dictates that you can't keep a guy just because you like him as a player. The truth is that we don't know exactly what will become of McCarthy. To hear people act like McCarthy is already a major league star is absurd. I can name about 100 players of the top of my head that I would trade him for, and that's without even stopping to think about it. I've said this before and I'll say it again, top prospects do not equal top major league talent. Most of the 100 players I'm talking about would require a lot more than Bmac to get the trade done.

McCarthy's "touchable", that's for sure. But given that he's a)a young pitcher with pretty dominant #s in the minors and b)has shown that he can be effective against major league hitters, It'll take a lot for me to be comfortable giving him up. This differs from the Ruffcorn or even Reed scenarios because we've seen BMac against major leaguers.

My issue with trading isn't so much not being willing to do so, but not being wiling to do so for Chavez. IMO Eric's a great 3B, but not a great hitter overall. Plus he makes a ton of $$$. That combo would make me decline any BMac-Chavez deal.

Jjav829
06-02-2005, 12:58 PM
Buster Olney chimes in:

There are rumblings of a big White Sox-Oakland trade in the making, with Eric Chavez in the middle of it. And Scot Gregor renders an opinion (http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sportsstory.asp?id=56482) on the possibility. The best thing about Chavez landing with the White Sox is that Chicago already has an established clubhouse hierarchy, and Chavez wouldn't be expected to do anything more than fit in. It would make sense for Billy Beane to deal Chavez now, before his value dips any lower and people start to wonder if his malaise is going to continue (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=6114) and whether he's worth the $10 million annual salary.

I don't know if the rumblings he is referring to come from Gregor's column or if Olney is actually hearing something from a reliable source. This rumor is definitely growing legs. It would be nice if one of Chicago's baseball insiders (Levine) could shed some light on whether there is any truth to this.

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 01:00 PM
With one exception, given the guys who are FAs after this year, that's not necessarily a BAD thing. The exception is Frank Thomas, but I fully expect them to come to terms on some sort of extension at <$10mil/yr.Who's there to resign? All the starters are either signed or only arbitration eligible through next year. About the only significant FA I can think of is Konerko.

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 01:01 PM
Buster Olney chimes in:



I don't know if the rumblings he is referring to come from Gregor's column or if Olney is actually hearing something from a reliable source. This rumor is definitely growing legs. It would be nice if one of Chicago's baseball insiders (Levine) could shed some light on whether there is any truth to this.Sounds more like just repeating what Gregor wrote. In sportswriterspeak, this qualifies as a "source".

Flight #24
06-02-2005, 01:07 PM
Who's there to resign? All the starters are either signed or only arbitration eligible through next year. About the only significant FA I can think of is Konerko.

My point exactly, if you've followed my thoughts on the various Konerko threads, I don't believe in resigning him unless it's at about 75% of his current salary or less.

If trading for Eric Chavez (without giving up BMac) means that we don't resign Paulie to a similar/larger deal, IMO that's a bonus. FWIW - the other FAs I can think of are Everett (gone) and Shingo.

The guy we need to keep is Frank tho. Nothing that moves him closer to being gone is a good idea (well, almost nothing).

samram
06-02-2005, 01:07 PM
I don't know if the rumblings he is referring to come from Gregor's column or if Olney is actually hearing something from a reliable source. This rumor is definitely growing legs. It would be nice if one of Chicago's baseball insiders (Levine) could shed some light on whether there is any truth to this.

My guess: Gregor wanders onto WSI, sees the thread talking about it with that link to the A's site or whatever, thinks about it, feels it makes some sense, writes about it, and then Olney sees it, and he writes about it. Suddenly, it's a full-blown rumor.

Flight #24
06-02-2005, 01:09 PM
My guess: Gregor wanders onto WSI, sees the thread talking about it with that link to the A's site or whatever, thinks about it, feels it makes some sense, writes about it, and then Olney sees it, and he writes about it. Suddenly, it's a full-blown rumor.

Just wait, within a few days we'll see a local report of "Multiple sources report the Sox are considering trading for Eric Chavez". Gregor + Olney(citing Gregor) = multiple sources.

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 01:15 PM
My guess: Gregor wanders onto WSI, sees the thread talking about it with that link to the A's site or whatever, thinks about it, feels it makes some sense, writes about it, and then Olney sees it, and he writes about it. Suddenly, it's a full-blown rumor.The scary part is you're probably not far from the truth.

hawkeyesrule
06-02-2005, 01:18 PM
http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sportsstory.asp?id=56482

I don't know about this one. I don't think trading McCarthy is a good idea, and Josh Fields (though I haven't heard much lately) is supposed to be a top prospect...

Although, I would gladly give up the next 8 years of mediocrity for a legit shot at the WS...

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 01:20 PM
My point exactly, if you've followed my thoughts on the various Konerko threads, I don't believe in resigning him unless it's at about 75% of his current salary or less.

If trading for Eric Chavez (without giving up BMac) means that we don't resign Paulie to a similar/larger deal, IMO that's a bonus. FWIW - the other FAs I can think of are Everett (gone) and Shingo.

The guy we need to keep is Frank tho. Nothing that moves him closer to being gone is a good idea (well, almost nothing).Given a choice, I'd much rather go for Helton. They could get him for a lot less in trade, although he would cost more in $$$. If you got Chavez there would be limited money for replacing Konerko and you'd probably wind up with Gload or someone similar. So ultimately, the choice comes down to Crede+Helton vs. Chavez+Gload.

SpammySosa
06-02-2005, 01:21 PM
http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sportsstory.asp?id=56482

I don't know about this one. I don't think trading McCarthy is a good idea, and Josh Fields (though I haven't heard much lately) is supposed to be a top prospect...

Although, I would gladly give up the next 8 years of mediocrity for a legit shot at the WS...

There is going to be nothing left of this dead horse if it gets beat anymore.

hawkeyesrule
06-02-2005, 01:22 PM
There is going to be nothing left of this dead horse if it gets beat anymore.

The article was written today, and I didn't see anything posted yet...

MisterB
06-02-2005, 01:24 PM
Has Scot Gregor been hanging out in the "What's the Score?" forum? :D:

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 01:25 PM
The article was written today, and I didn't see anything posted yet...http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=50832

miker
06-02-2005, 01:28 PM
Although, I would gladly give up the next 8 years of mediocrity for a legit shot at the WS...

As opposed to the previous 8 years?

Not to rain on the parade, but Chavez is definitely not the same hitter since being hit by Marte. Crede gets you the same frustrating offensive numbers at a lower price. The trade comes down to Crede's unrealized potential and McCarthy's future versus Chavez's potential to recover from his injury.

I'm not KW, but I'd advise against it.

Madvora
06-02-2005, 01:31 PM
The article was written today, and I didn't see anything posted yet...

The history of this rumor, as I know it, started from the Mac, Jurko and Harry show on ESPN1000 about 2 weeks ago. Someone sent in an email saying that he heard a rumor out of Oakland about Chavez being available and that the Sox might be interested.
From what I know, and I was listening at the time, the guys started talking about this and were just throwing names out themselves. They mention McCarthy and Crede for Chavez and started to debate it.
Then they kept it up through out the whole show and referred to it as "the White Sox trade rumor" throughout the show. I thought that was a little irresponsible since this is all based off an email a guy sent in and they created most of this rumor.

It's strange how big this has become. I've been following it's growth since it started and now it's being legitimized in a newspaper article.

ShoelessJoeS
06-02-2005, 01:36 PM
I'm not KW, but I'd advise against it.

id have to agree, chavez hasnt shown this year hes anything more than an expensive crede, and just saying that sounds nasty

BNLSox
06-02-2005, 01:44 PM
According to CBSSportsline which quotes the Arlington Daily Herald as their source, the A's are looking to trade Chavez for McCarthy and Crede.

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/MLB_SC-RUMOR

With the way Chavez has been playing this year and his big contract I just don't see how this would be a good move for the Sox in either the short or long term.

samram
06-02-2005, 01:47 PM
Well, there will be another add-on to this thread within 15 minutes, with a Sportsline link. Hard to believe that someone's supposedly harmless email or post turns into the biggest trade rumor of the season thus far. Or maybe not so hard to believe.

Rocky Soprano
06-02-2005, 01:49 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=50832

MisterB
06-02-2005, 01:49 PM
Not to rain on the parade, but Chavez is definitely not the same hitter since being hit by Marte. Crede gets you the same frustrating offensive numbers at a lower price. The trade comes down to Crede's unrealized potential and McCarthy's future versus Chavez's potential to recover from his injury.

I'm not KW, but I'd advise against it.

Chavez's 2004 numbers after being hit by Marte:

.286/.403/.507 16 hr, 40 rbi, 54 bb, 61 k in 276 ab's.

Whatever problems Chavez is having this season, it isn't from getting hit last season. Nonetheless, unless there's some correctable explanation for his current offensive slump, you'd have to question giving up top prospects for him right now.

Otherwise, I'd happily take a continuation of his last 5 years' production over Crede's 'potential' any day.

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 01:49 PM
Well, there will be another add-on to this thread within 15 minutes, with a Sportsline link. Hard to believe that someone's supposedly harmless email or post turns into the biggest trade rumor of the season thus far. Or maybe not so hard to believe.Already there in the Clubhouse. Why is this thread in WTS anyway? Maybe if it was moved to the clubhouse people wouldn't feel a need to keep starting new ones.

IlliniSox
06-02-2005, 01:50 PM
According to CBSSportsline which quotes the Arlington Daily Herald as their source, the A's are looking to trade Chavez for McCarthy and Crede.

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/MLB_SC-RUMOR

With the way Chavez has been playing this year and his big contract I just don't see how this would be a good move for the Sox in either the short or long term.

:smile: Welcome! I doublepost all the time!

IlliniSoxFan
06-02-2005, 01:51 PM
If we can get Oakland to eat some of his contract, I'd go for that.

Then, after we win the World Series this year and are sellers in the next couple, we'll trade him back to Oakland and get McCarthy back.

samram
06-02-2005, 01:52 PM
Already there in the Clubhouse. Why is this thread in WTS anyway? Maybe if it was moved to the clubhouse people wouldn't feel a need to keep starting new ones.

Yeah, I saw it in the clubhouse and figured it would be on this thread before long. Also, a thread on a particular topic in the Clubhouse never stops people from starting new ones on the same topic. How many "Paulie Must Go" or "Paulie Must Get a New Deal or the Franchise Will Fold" threads have there been in the last two weeks?

LoganSox
06-02-2005, 01:53 PM
The analysis I've heard is that Chavez's numbers look bad because he's the only bat in the A's lineup and never sees anything to hit.

I've heard from "inside sources" that we're looking to deal for Billy Wagner from the Phils as well.:rolleyes:

ShoelessJoeS
06-02-2005, 01:54 PM
Yeah, I saw it in the clubhouse and figured it would be on this thread before long. Also, a thread on a particular topic in the Clubhouse never stops people from starting new ones on the same topic. How many "Paulie Must Go" or "Paulie Must Get a New Deal or the Franchise Will Fold" threads have there been in the last two weeks?

NOT ENOUGH!

Flight #24
06-02-2005, 01:56 PM
Given a choice, I'd much rather go for Helton. They could get him for a lot less in trade, although he would cost more in $$$. If you got Chavez there would be limited money for replacing Konerko and you'd probably wind up with Gload or someone similar. So ultimately, the choice comes down to Crede+Helton vs. Chavez+Gload.

I'm on the Helton bandwagon as well, but IMO the other is a no-brainer.

Defensively, Chavez>Crede and Gload>Konerko
Offensively, Chavez>Konerko and Gload>Crede

As long as it doesn't cost BMac, Anderson, Gio, I can do Crede plus 1 prospect for Chavez (no cash from A's). They can take their pick of Sweeney, Fields, Liotta, etc. Rogowski sounds like a Beane special.

Rocky Soprano
06-02-2005, 01:57 PM
If we can get Oakland to eat some of his contract, I'd go for that.

Then, after we win the World Series this year and are sellers in the next couple, we'll trade him back to Oakland and get McCarthy back.

:tealpolice:

maurice
06-02-2005, 01:57 PM
Chavez almost certainly would represent a huge upgrade over Crede, but I'm very wary of that contract.

Why is this thread in WTS anyway?

No baseless rumors allowed in the clubhouse. They usually end up here.

Tekijawa
06-02-2005, 01:57 PM
I've never heard of this trade before?!?!?!?

mweflen
06-02-2005, 01:59 PM
someone please post the "AAUGH, MY EYES!!!" pic...:D:

jhill36
06-02-2005, 01:59 PM
According to CBSSportsline which quotes the Arlington Daily Herald as their source, the A's are looking to trade Chavez for McCarthy and Crede.

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/MLB_SC-RUMOR

With the way Chavez has been playing this year and his big contract I just don't see how this would be a good move for the Sox in either the short or long term.

I'm at the breaking point with this offense. I want to see Frank more often, but...

I say GO FOR IT.

WhteSox725
06-02-2005, 02:01 PM
I've heard from "inside sources" that we're looking to deal for Billy Wagner from the Phils as well.:rolleyes:

Does it have to do with a cell phone call in an airport?:tongue:

Madvora
06-02-2005, 02:08 PM
Man, this is getting out of control.

Check out the other threads that have been merged into one.
I wrote something on what I think the history of this rumor was. Anyone hear the same thing as me?
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=712856#post712856

jhill36
06-02-2005, 02:22 PM
Ehh, you gotta be fair though. We're talking about a gold glove 3B who has consistently been a near .280/30/100 guy. I know he's been bad right now, but he has no protection in that lineup. Would you give Chavez anything decent to hit if you were facing that lineup? I know I wouldn't. However, put him 4th between Thomas and Konerko and I'm near certain that he'd return to his 2000-2004 self.

This would be an amazing acquisition, though I'm not getting my hopes up.

With Podsednik and Thomas getting on base the way they can, Chavez would definitely bring them home on a much more consistent basis than someone like Crede. He's a guy you want hitting much higher in the lineup than Crede. And for the first time I've seen the rumors online myself, rather than just hearing about it from "you people." :D:

Division lead over Twins: :bandance::bandance::bandance::bandance:

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 02:22 PM
I'm on the Helton bandwagon as well, but IMO the other is a no-brainer.

Defensively, Chavez>Crede and Gload>Konerko
Offensively, Chavez>Konerko and Gload>Crede

As long as it doesn't cost BMac, Anderson, Gio, I can do Crede plus 1 prospect for Chavez (no cash from A's). They can take their pick of Sweeney, Fields, Liotta, etc. Rogowski sounds like a Beane special.I don't think I'd agree. I would rate Crede at least as good as Chavez, defensively. Don't be fooled by the Gold Gloves. We all know they're not given just for defense. And I wouldn't count on Gload>Crede offensively, either. Gload shone in pretty limited playing time, but I don't see him coming close to that as an everyday player.

And how much better Chavez is than Konerko offensively is not a slam dunk. Konerko's 2005 numbers are better than Chavez, so it's a leap of faith to assume Chavez would be an improvement. I know Chavez hasn't had much protection in the lineup, but neither has Konerko.

Flight #24
06-02-2005, 02:55 PM
I don't think I'd agree. I would rate Crede at least as good as Chavez, defensively. Don't be fooled by the Gold Gloves. We all know they're not given just for defense. And I wouldn't count on Gload>Crede offensively, either. Gload shone in pretty limited playing time, but I don't see him coming close to that as an everyday player.

And how much better Chavez is than Konerko offensively is not a slam dunk. Konerko's 2005 numbers are better than Chavez, so it's a leap of faith to assume Chavez would be an improvement. I know Chavez hasn't had much protection in the lineup, but neither has Konerko.

Put it this way - I don't thik Chavez is a downgrade from Crede defensively, and his offensive history says that he's a lot more likely than Konerko to break out of his current slump and return to his career norms (assuming there aren't any BALCO-esque issues).

As for Gload, it's not a given, but in his limited time, he's hit a lot better than Crede has. So I think him matching/exceeding Crede's production is a pretty good bet.

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 03:02 PM
Put it this way - I don't thik Chavez is a downgrade from Crede defensively, and his offensive history says that he's a lot more likely than Konerko to break out of his current slump and return to his career norms (assuming there aren't any BALCO-esque issues).

As for Gload, it's not a given, but in his limited time, he's hit a lot better than Crede has. So I think him matching/exceeding Crede's production is a pretty good bet.Konerko broke out of his two weeks ago. In his last 13 games he's 15 for 50 with 10 RBI.

maurice
06-02-2005, 03:23 PM
In his last 3 games, Konerko is 0-11 with 8 LOB and 2 GiDP. In the last 7 days, he's batting .182. His last multi-hit game was May 25th.

mweflen
06-02-2005, 03:27 PM
touche!:redneck

AZChiSoxFan
06-02-2005, 03:33 PM
The analysis I've heard is that Chavez's numbers look bad because he's the only bat in the A's lineup and never sees anything to hit.

I've heard from "inside sources" that we're looking to deal for Billy Wagner from the Phils as well.:rolleyes:

You don't happen to know chisoxtony do you?

Flight #24
06-02-2005, 03:41 PM
Konerko broke out of his two weeks ago. In his last 13 games he's 15 for 50 with 10 RBI.

He'll have to do it for a bit longer to convince me that it wasn't just a couple game streak. See Maurice's stats, another rough couple of games and Paulie's back to just having had a hot week in his season-opening slump.

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 03:45 PM
He'll have to do it for a bit longer to convince me that it wasn't just a couple game streak. See Maurice's stats, another rough couple of games and Paulie's back to just having had a hot week in his season-opening slump.Huh??? So you don't believe 13 games worth of production but you believe 3 games worth?

maurice
06-02-2005, 03:53 PM
Huh??? So you don't believe 13 games worth of production but you believe 3 games worth?

:?:
Take a closer look. Konerko was on fire for one week (5/18 - 5/25). During that week, he was 12-28. Since then, he's 2-18 with 11 LOB.

The very short hot streak is over . . . which presumably is why Ozzie banned him from the park during pre-game yesterday.

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 03:56 PM
:?:
Take a closer look. Konerko was on fire for one week (5/18 - 5/25). During that week, he was 12-28. Since then, he's 2-18 with 11 LOB.

The very short hot streak is over . . . which presumably is why Ozzie banned him from the park during pre-game yesterday.Look through his month-by-month splits. Other than 2003, his slumps (though maddening) have never lasted more than a month.

Edit: This is getting far afield from my original point, which was that given a choice, I'd rather have Crede+Helton than Chavez+Gload. Especially since Chavez will probably cost more in prospects than Helton.

Pasqua's Posers
06-02-2005, 04:20 PM
Can't say I like this trade. Giving up Crede is a no-brainer, but don't part with McCarthy. Starting rotation in 2007 Buherle, McCarthy, Garcia, Garland...

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/beatwriters.asp?column=gregor&id=56482

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 04:24 PM
This is starting to get funny.

bluestar
06-02-2005, 04:26 PM
Maybe the mods should post one of those "sticky" posts at the top of the Sox Clubhouse forum to direct all talk about trading for Chavez here.:D:

Flight #24
06-02-2005, 04:59 PM
Huh??? So you don't believe 13 games worth of production but you believe 3 games worth?

What I believe is that that 13game stretch is actually a 7-game stretch in which Paulie went 12-28 with 8RBI. The question is: if you have a slow start for 1.5 months, followed by a great 7-game stretch and then another 2-18/1 RBI stretch over the next 5 - are you really "breaking out of it"?

To me, breaking out of it means that he'll put together a much longer stretch where he's at least decent. The suspicious resemblance of his past 5 games to his first 6-8 weeks makes me think that he may not have broken out of it.

EDIT: Oops, maurice beat me to it.

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 05:17 PM
What I believe is that that 13game stretch is actually a 7-game stretch in which Paulie went 12-28 with 8RBI. The question is: if you have a slow start for 1.5 months, followed by a great 7-game stretch and then another 2-18/1 RBI stretch over the next 5 - are you really "breaking out of it"?

To me, breaking out of it means that he'll put together a much longer stretch where he's at least decent. The suspicious resemblance of his past 5 games to his first 6-8 weeks makes me think that he may not have broken out of it.

EDIT: Oops, maurice beat me to it.Actually, he was pretty hot for the first week, if you recall. He followed that with a pretty cold month, and then another pretty good 2 weeks. From May 17 through May 27 he hit in every game but one. Three games without a hit does not make a slump.

If you look back over the years, this is pretty much his history. He generally goes hot and cold in the first two months, then heats up in June. If you want to wait for a few more weeks to decide if he's out of his slump or not, that's your prerogative. I'm confident he'll be fine.

ShoelessJoeS
06-02-2005, 05:31 PM
Can't say I like this trade. Giving up Crede is a no-brainer, but don't part with McCarthy. Starting rotation in 2007 Buherle, McCarthy, Garcia, Garland...
thatd be sweet to have three returning world series champs and a cy young in our starting rotation!

maurice
06-02-2005, 05:43 PM
The evidence does not show that Konerko has broken / is breaking out of a slump. If one cold week does not prove a slump, then one hot week that occurred a week ago certainly does not prove that he is "breaking out." Yesterday's pre-game ban indicates that the Sox don't think he's broken out of anything.

The thought of adding Helton or Chavez to the lineup is extremely atractive, but I'm wary of taking on a large, long-term contract. The prospects needed to get the job done would depend on the about of money eaten by the other team. While Oakland is not likely to eat anything beyond this season, Colorado would have to poney up quite a bit of cash.

Mohoney
06-02-2005, 05:59 PM
So ultimately, the choice comes down to Crede+Helton vs. Chavez+Gload.

But for THIS year, it's only Chavez vs Crede or Helton vs Konerko.

I think we have to decide how much we're willing to gamble on this year and put next year's salary structure on the back burner.

I think Chavez, accompanied with another lefty bullpen arm to prevent Marte from getting overworked, puts us over the top in this division. I think it's even worth giving up McCarthy, and I was dead-set against trading McCarthy until I thought long and hard about what Eric Chavez brings to the table.

We can always trade Chavez during the offseason let Konerko walk, and sign stopgaps if we really need to shed payroll, but the return on Chavez will fall short of what we gave up. As for Helton, that contract is just way too big, and if the Rockies eat a sizable enough portion, they're going to insist on McCarthy, too.

In a perfect world, we get three rounds of playoff revenue, keep Chavez, sign Konerko and Frank, and collect another three rounds of playoff revenue in 2006.

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 06:01 PM
The evidence does not show that Konerko has broken / is breaking out of a slump. If one cold week does not prove a slump, then one hot week that occurred a week ago certainly does not prove that he is "breaking out." Yesterday's pre-game ban indicates that the Sox don't think he's broken out of anything.

The thought of adding Helton or Chavez to the lineup is extremely atractive, but I'm wary of taking on a large, long-term contract. The prospects needed to get the job done would depend on the about of money eaten by the other team. While Oakland is not likely to eat anything beyond this season, Colorado would have to poney up quite a bit of cash.You're fudging a bit. Over a 10-game stretch, he hit in all but one of them, then followed it with three 0-fers. And the pre-game ban was obviously intended to make a day off a real day off and not just a day on the bench. Some players just consistently don't hit well in the spring and no one knows why, but that's his history. I'd be willing to bet you that we see a much more productive player in June.

I'd be wary of the long-term contract, too, and it probably should be all in deep pink because JR is even more wary of long-term contracts. I can't in my wildest dreams imagine him agreeing to take on a contract like those two have. But if he were going to do it, I'd much rather go for Helton. He's much more in the mold of what they're trying to do and I'd rather live with Crede than whatever bargain-basement 1B they'd have to settle for.

Ol' No. 2
06-02-2005, 06:11 PM
But for THIS year, it's only Chavez vs Crede or Helton vs Konerko.

I think we have to decide how much we're willing to gamble on this year and put next year's salary structure on the back burner.

I think Chavez, accompanied with another lefty bullpen arm to prevent Marte from getting overworked, puts us over the top in this division. I think it's even worth giving up McCarthy, and I was dead-set against trading McCarthy until I thought long and hard about what Eric Chavez brings to the table.

We can always trade Chavez during the offseason let Konerko walk, and sign stopgaps if we really need to shed payroll, but the return on Chavez will fall short of what we gave up. As for Helton, that contract is just way too big, and if the Rockies eat a sizable enough portion, they're going to insist on McCarthy, too.

In a perfect world, we get three rounds of playoff revenue, keep Chavez, sign Konerko and Frank, and collect another three rounds of playoff revenue in 2006.Good point. If you're going to go after Chavez, the time to do it is now. It's a gamble, but if he breaks out his value is going to way go up.

But I still wouldn't give up McCarthy. Trading away prospects for current needs is OK, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Given the way the MLB finances are structured, you have to have a continual supply of young (cheap) talent to succeed.

Pasqua's Posers
06-02-2005, 06:21 PM
Any truth to Sox trading Crede/Garland to A's for Chavez/Dotel?

JohnBasedowYoda
06-02-2005, 06:22 PM
Any truth to Sox trading Crede/Garland to A's for Chavez/Dotel?

not yet and i hope not

PAPChiSox729
06-02-2005, 06:22 PM
Any truth to Sox trading Crede/Garland to A's for Chavez/Dotel?

Dude, What's The Score??

maurice
06-02-2005, 06:23 PM
You're fudging a bit.

Pot kettle black, Mr. "Last 13 Games." :cool:

I'd be wary of the long-term contract, too, and it probably should be all in deep pink because JR is even more wary of long-term contracts. I can't in my wildest dreams imagine him agreeing to take on a contract like those two have.

JR's a tough nut to crack. His primary objection is to long-term contracts for pitchers. He reportedly was willing to give Maggs a way-too-big long-term deal. Thomas and Belle got pretty big deals, but both contracts had "out" clauses. In any event, I'm far more comfortable being laden with a long-term deal for Helton than a long-term deal for Konerko.

DickAllen72
06-02-2005, 06:24 PM
I'd offer Crede and Sean Tracey for Chavez. If Beane really wants out of that contract to free up money for younger players, he'll take it.

Or, maybe Crede and Josh Fields for Chavez. Beane gets money freed up, a stopgap third baseman with a possible upside, and a third baseman of the future all for one third baseman with a huge contract.

batmanZoSo
06-02-2005, 06:24 PM
Who said this? I certainly hope not. I want Chavez, but not for Garland. Gimme a break.

chisoxmike
06-02-2005, 06:26 PM
Any truth to Sox trading Crede/Garland to A's for Chavez/Dotel?

There better not be.

DickAllen72
06-02-2005, 06:30 PM
Any truth to Sox trading Crede/Garland to A's for Chavez/Dotel?
:dtroll:

maurice
06-02-2005, 06:30 PM
This is the worst one yet.

ShoelessJoeS
06-02-2005, 06:32 PM
This is the worst one yet.
amen, dotel is a joke

dcb33
06-02-2005, 06:32 PM
Dude, What's The Score??

This one's so bad it deserves a trip to the Roadhouse.

The Racehorse
06-02-2005, 06:33 PM
oh, for Chrissake...

Jjav829
06-02-2005, 06:33 PM
Any truth to Sox trading Crede/Garland to A's for Chavez/Dotel?

Let me guess, you saw this on a cbssportsline.com message board, right? Or was it an ESPN message board? Or maybe the mlb.com message boards?

Hendu
06-02-2005, 06:34 PM
Where did you hear about this trade?

It would be a bad trade for both sides. Do the Sox really want to go back to the 5th starter situation they had the last couple of seasons? You don't trade starting pitching without getting some back (Zito?)

As for the A's, they're out of it this year and Garland will be a free agent next year. The A's would prefer young, cheap talent like B Mac who will help them next year and beyond.

Edit: this post refers to the Garland & Crede for Chavez and Dotel rumor

Mohoney
06-02-2005, 06:45 PM
In case it hasn't been posted, here are the contract dollars for each guy:

Helton:

$12.6 million this season
$16.6 million per season from 2006-2010
$19.1 million in 2011.

The Rockies have an option to pay Helton $23 million in 2012 or execute a $4.6 million buyout. Helton can opt out of this contract after 2007. Helton has a complete no-trade clause that prevents him from being traded without his consent.



Chavez:

$8 million this season
$9 million in 2006 and 2007
$11 million in 2008 and 2009
$12 million in 2010

The A's have an option to pay Chavez $12.5 million in 2011 or execute a $3 million buyout.

His $3 million signing bonus has $2.5 million left to be paid, in $500,000 installments each Nov. 16 from now until 2009. His limited no-trade clause prevents him from being traded to Cleveland, Florida, Milwaukee, Minnesota, Montreal, New York Mets, Tampa Bay or Toronto without his consent.

ShoelessJoeS
06-02-2005, 06:51 PM
WOW. i never knew helton was that pricy

Pasqua's Posers
06-02-2005, 06:52 PM
i got this at CBSSPortsline.com and was quickly sent into a panic....no need to give up Garland. The clown who originally posted said he heard it on the SCORE

ShoelessJoeS
06-02-2005, 06:57 PM
Who said this? I certainly hope not. I want Chavez, but not for Garland. Gimme a break.
no kidding, i wouldnt even want dotel if he was free...and healthy, and hes not either of the two

Mohoney
06-02-2005, 06:58 PM
WOW. i never knew helton was that pricy

I believe his $141.5 million was the 4th highest contract in baseball in terms of total dollars, behind ARod's $252 million, Jeter's $189 million, and Manny Ramirez's $160 million.

maurice
06-02-2005, 07:00 PM
:tomatoaward :tomatoaward

How embarrassing.

MRKARNO
06-02-2005, 07:02 PM
i got this at CBSSPortsline.com and was quickly sent into a panic....no need to give up Garland. The clown who originally posted said he heard it on the SCORE

There is an unofficial ban on posting rumors from the CBS Sportsline message boards because people post BS There to get attention all the time.

Mohoney
06-02-2005, 07:03 PM
:tomatoaward :tomatoaward

How embarrassing.

I'm willing to bet on at least two more tomatoes before the trade deadline.

gr8mexico
06-02-2005, 08:16 PM
THe one I hear alot is that the Sox will send Crede and Brandon to the A's for Chavez.What do you think?The one that wants the trade to go thru is Chavez That would be amazing a gold glove at 3rd would be awesome.

ShoelessJoeS
06-02-2005, 08:20 PM
THe one I hear alot is that the Sox will send Crede and Brandon to the A's for Chavez.What do you think?The one that wants the trade to go thru is Chavez That would be amazing a gold glove at 3rd would be awesome.
this thread belongs in "whats the score," theres already lots about this rumor in that forum

balke
06-02-2005, 09:02 PM
Chavez really hasn't seemed to snapped out of anything yet. Doesn't mean he won't, but doesn't mean he will either. I'm back and forth on the Chavez idea. Sure he'd be great... if he stopped slumping. He hasn't, and he costs a LOT of money, and may cost us a great prospect. You have to say no for now I think.

PAPChiSox729
06-02-2005, 09:19 PM
THe one I hear alot is that the Sox will send Crede and Brandon to the A's for Chavez.What do you think?The one that wants the trade to go thru is Chavez That would be amazing a gold glove at 3rd would be awesome.

That fat contract of Chavez wouldn't be too awesome, especially if he continues to struggle. McCarthy and Crede is a little too high of a price.

ShoelessJoeS
06-03-2005, 12:25 AM
That fat contract of Chavez wouldn't be too awesome, especially if he continues to struggle. McCarthy and Crede is a little too high of a price.
especially the opportunity cost of BMac, hes just barely legal to drink has proven he can strike em out with the best of any major league prospect and possibly any young hurler in the game...he just needs to ease off the long balls, something im sure he'll learn to handle and like i said, HES ONLY 21

Flight #24
06-03-2005, 10:23 AM
FWIW, ESPN1000 reports that Billy Beane "says there's no way he's trading Eric Chavez to anybody".


So you'll probably see a trade in the next few weeks......

CHISOXFAN13
06-03-2005, 11:01 AM
THe one I hear alot is that the Sox will send Crede and Brandon to the A's for Chavez.What do you think?The one that wants the trade to go thru is Chavez That would be amazing a gold glove at 3rd would be awesome.

FWIW, the Score reported this morning that Chavez has no interest in playing in Chicago.

Brian26
06-03-2005, 11:58 AM
FWIW, the Score reported this morning that Chavez has no interest in playing in Chicago.

Oakland is so much better.

balke
06-03-2005, 12:07 PM
FWIW, the Score reported this morning that Chavez has no interest in playing in Chicago.

Billy Beane has also been quoted to say he will not be trading Chavez to anyone.

Edit: oops, someone already reported that.

CHISOXFAN13
06-03-2005, 12:09 PM
Oakland is so much better.

I'm certainly not going to agree with him either, but he is a California native, so I'm sure that plays a role in his decision.

Whatever. I can do without him anyway.

maurice
06-03-2005, 12:15 PM
It doesn't matter what Chavez says. IIRC, he has only a limited no-trade clause that allows him to be traded to either Chicago team.

SouthSideIrish
06-03-2005, 02:13 PM
http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sportsstory.asp?id=56482
There are rumblings of a big White Sox-Oakland trade in the making,with Eric Chavez in the middle of it. And Scot Gregor renders an opinion on the possibility. The best thing about Chavez landing with the White Sox is that Chicago already has an established clubhouse hierarchy, and Chavez wouldn't be expected to do anything more than fit in. It would make sense for Billy Beane to deal Chavez now, before his value dips any lower and people start to wonder if his malaise is going to continue and whether he's worth the $10 million annual salary.

maurice
06-03-2005, 02:26 PM
Really? I never heard this one.

Ol' No. 2
06-03-2005, 03:05 PM
Pot kettle black, Mr. "Last 13 Games." :cool: I think we've extracted just about all we're going to get out of this. Besides, it's really irrelevant to the thread.

JR's a tough nut to crack. His primary objection is to long-term contracts for pitchers. He reportedly was willing to give Maggs a way-too-big long-term deal. Thomas and Belle got pretty big deals, but both contracts had "out" clauses. In any event, I'm far more comfortable being laden with a long-term deal for Helton than a long-term deal for Konerko.I doubt anyone is going to offer PK a long-term contract for big money. I sure wouldn't. Chavez is at least moderately reasonable, and given that he's not hitting that well right now, he could be a trade bargain if a team wants to take a gamble. Helton's contract is just plain crazy. OTOH, the Rockies are probably going to be more willing to throw in $$$, so they may wind up about the same.

But at the end of the day I still think bullpen help is a bigger priority.

Spicoli
06-03-2005, 04:36 PM
Third baseman Eric Chavez wants out of Oakland so badly, he is said to be fueling trade rumors about himself, says the Arlington Daily Herald.

If Chavez really wants out of Oakland, why wouldn't he want to play for the best team in baseball and try to win a World Series?

ShoelessJoeS
06-03-2005, 05:11 PM
ive heard he wants out of oakland and also how hes not considering a move to chicago, whats the deal already? youre killin me smalls!

TBlock29
06-03-2005, 05:30 PM
"Chavez amused: Chavez got a kick out of a column in a Chicago-area newspaper, the Daily Herald, suggesting the A's might trade the third baseman because, "(Chavez) wants out of Oakland so bad that he's the one who apparently is fueling the trade rumor to the Sox.''

Chavez laughed and said, "Yeah, that's why I just signed a $66 million contract to stay here last year, so I can leave. Where does this stuff come from? I don't want to go anywhere near the East Coast, and to me Chicago is the East Coast, anything past Texas.''

A's general manager Billy Beane was outraged by the story, saying, "It's total (garbage.)'' Asked if he had plans to deal Chavez, he said, "Zero. Zero.''

TheOldRoman
06-03-2005, 05:34 PM
Old news. Its no big loss anyways.

Of course Beane is looking to trade Chavez. He is making him seem untouchable to drive up his price. As for Chavez, he seems like a loyal company man. If he pulled an A-Rod and said "If they want to trade me to improve the team I would accept the trade" BS that would force Bean's hand and force a trade for lesser in return. I am glad we wont be burdened with his massive salary for the next 4 years.

maurice
06-03-2005, 05:37 PM
I doubt anyone is going to offer PK a long-term contract for big money. I sure wouldn't.

Neither would I, but the most recent free agent class has me shaking my head. Crazy numbers for questionable guys like Ordonez and Glaus. The numbers for the pitchers were wacky as well.

IMHO, Konerko is in line for a pay cut, but would he agree to such a thing? Is it even safe to offer him arbitration? I guess we'll have to wait to find out for certain.

JB98
06-03-2005, 05:41 PM
We don't want a guy who is batting .218 anyway. We have enough struggling hitters.

TBlock29
06-03-2005, 06:07 PM
Chavez amused: Chavez got a kick out of a column in a Chicago-area newspaper, the Daily Herald, suggesting the A's might trade the third baseman because, "(Chavez) wants out of Oakland so bad that he's the one who apparently is fueling the trade rumor to the Sox.''

Chavez laughed and said, "Yeah, that's why I just signed a $66 million contract to stay here last year, so I can leave. Where does this stuff come from? I don't want to go anywhere near the East Coast, and to me Chicago is the East Coast, anything past Texas.''

A's general manager Billy Beane was outraged by the story, saying, "It's total (garbage.)'' Asked if he had plans to deal Chavez, he said, "Zero. Zero.''

santo=dorf
06-03-2005, 06:08 PM
:threadrules::threadrules::threadrules:
(This was about the trade rumor being dead) I walked into the clubhouse, cameout of minor observations, and then went to What's the Score? :D:

OzzieBall2005
06-03-2005, 06:09 PM
.......on to rumors for Joe Randa, Morgan Ensberg, etc.........

jhill36
06-03-2005, 09:42 PM
It's rare that a good thing like this comes along.

Don't mess with it.


_________________________________
GO SOX!!!!!!!!

White Sox Josh
06-03-2005, 09:47 PM
While I love this team, when a player like Chavez comes around and you don't have to give up McCarthy you trade for him.

jhill36
06-03-2005, 09:51 PM
I say you wait to see what June brings along. June has always been a pivotal month in baseball. You start tinkering too soon before you know what you have and you could end up hurting your chances.

I think tonight's game against Cleveland is just the beginning.

veeter
06-03-2005, 09:53 PM
I still say wait to see Frank's impact. HE may be the missing bat, making a pick-up unnecessary. Make a trade for more bullpen help instead.

batmanZoSo
06-03-2005, 09:54 PM
It's rare that we're within an ear shot of the World Series. Very rare. Give yourself as much chance as possible.

Iguana775
06-03-2005, 10:04 PM
It's rare that we're within an ear shot of the World Series. Very rare. Give yourself as much chance as possible.

lol. Yea, I told my wife tonite that if the Sox get to the Series, we are going. I dont care if i have to max my card. You never know when the next time this will happen. woo hoo!!!!

Now that I said that, it probably wont happen.

:gulp:

ScottsdaleSoxFan
06-03-2005, 10:22 PM
Eric Chavez is the dumb blonde of baseball. I don't wanna anyone who is stupid enough to say "I don't want to go to the east coast. And to me Chicago is the east coast."

jhill36
06-03-2005, 10:43 PM
He doesnt know that not that long ago the White Sox were in the WESTERN Division of the AL.

A-Duh!

Stroker Ace
06-03-2005, 10:53 PM
Yeah. We don't need to make any changes like trading away B-Mac for Chavez. We are the best team in baseball and we don't need him!

Ol' No. 2
06-04-2005, 12:05 AM
I say you wait to see what June brings along. June has always been a pivotal month in baseball. You start tinkering too soon before you know what you have and you could end up hurting your chances.

I think tonight's game against Cleveland is just the beginning.Absolutely. Lots of players scuffle during the spring and when teams turn it around, they generally seem to do it in June. While "turn it around" isn't exactly appropriate for a team with the best record in baseball, I think it's very likely that many of the areas where the Sox have struggled will sort themselves out in June. Some players will come around. Others won't. But at this date it's impossible to know which is which.

rowand33
06-04-2005, 12:14 AM
I'd much rather have Huff.

Wsoxmike59
06-04-2005, 12:21 AM
I'd much rather have Huff.

Mike or Charlie??? :D:

Ol' No. 2
06-04-2005, 12:29 AM
Neither would I, but the most recent free agent class has me shaking my head. Crazy numbers for questionable guys like Ordonez and Glaus. The numbers for the pitchers were wacky as well.

IMHO, Konerko is in line for a pay cut, but would he agree to such a thing? Is it even safe to offer him arbitration? I guess we'll have to wait to find out for certain.You may want to wait until the season is over before you decide on what he's worth. He's had poor springs before and made up for them. He hit .256 in May last year and finished pretty well.

Given the fact that salaries seem to baloon every year, getting him for the same money is effectively a cut (in a weird sort of logic). Depending on what kind of numbers he puts up and what alternatives they have, offering arbitration might be just the thing. He's probably not going to accept and they'll get some pretty nice draft picks. Even if he does accept, it's just a one year deal that tides them over until one of their minor league prospects is ready in 2007.

SOXintheBURGH
06-04-2005, 12:51 AM
Yeah, Joe Crede has a great glove. He has the occasional hit (occasional hit!)hat makes me happy while you have him. But if you can, you grab Eric Chavez. I mean really.

shoota
06-04-2005, 01:07 AM
Yeah, Joe Crede has a great glove. He has the occasional hit (occasional hit!)hat makes me happy while you have him. But if you can, you grab Eric Chavez. I mean really.

Crede's glove started two nice double plays and helped the Sox win tonight's game.

Even before Chavez made elementary geography teachers squirm, I didn't want to trade for him. As others on these boards have pointed out, there are three huge reasons not to trade for Eric Chavez: 1) His location near Balco and his poor 2005 leave one to wonder how good he really is; 2) His contract would strangle the $75 million budget Sox through 2009 if he failed to be a great hitter for the life of the contract; 3) it was rumored the Sox would trade Crede and McCarthy for him. McCarthy is too steep a price to pay for a struggling player with more than $50 million left on his contract.

If this were ATH, and I were Jay Mariotti, I would be SELLING this idea--and then let my eyebrows grow back.:D:

PicktoCLick72
06-04-2005, 01:14 AM
Originally Posted by shoota
If this were ATH, and I were Jay Mariotti, I would be SELLING this idea.

I don't think mentioning being Jay Mariotti at any time is a very good move on this board.

Rocklive99
06-04-2005, 01:31 AM
I don't like Chavez's attitude. He was on the Snore saying he was expecting to be traded since the A's probably won't compete. I guess that's the loyalness for being there a while and getting big money while letting pitching studs go. Earth to Eric, you're teams not competing has something to do with a) you not hitting a lick and b) them using money on you instead of signing hudson or mulder

FarWestChicago
06-04-2005, 02:16 AM
You may want to wait until the season is over before you decide on what he's worth. He's had poor springs before and made up for them. He hit .256 in May last year and finished pretty well. Yes, but the doesn't have the little "Moneyball Helper" this time. Victor Conte is out of business. Moneyball is finished without the juice. Or haven't you noticed the A's totally blow?

gosox41
06-04-2005, 08:48 AM
You may want to wait until the season is over before you decide on what he's worth. He's had poor springs before and made up for them. He hit .256 in May last year and finished pretty well.

Given the fact that salaries seem to baloon every year, getting him for the same money is effectively a cut (in a weird sort of logic). Depending on what kind of numbers he puts up and what alternatives they have, offering arbitration might be just the thing. He's probably not going to accept and they'll get some pretty nice draft picks. Even if he does accept, it's just a one year deal that tides them over until one of their minor league prospects is ready in 2007.

Even if salaries balloon every year, I have my doubts about paying PK roughly $9 mill per year for a guy who is getting older, and IMHO (though you will disagree) tends to be a 1/2 player--except for 2004.



Bob

Jurr
06-04-2005, 11:19 AM
Even if salaries balloon every year, I have my doubts about paying PK roughly $9 mill per year for a guy who is getting older, and IMHO (though you will disagree) tends to be a 1/2 player--except for 2004.



Bob
NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOO MOOOOORE KONERKO CONTRACT TALK!!!
800 posts! two weeks! My brain is melting!
:party: Let's talk about parties and cupcakes!

mdep524
06-04-2005, 11:36 AM
:party: Let's talk about parties and cupcakes! I hope they serve cupcakes at the big party on the night the Sox clinch the Central. :D:

White Sox Josh
06-04-2005, 11:39 AM
I would do a Chavez trade only under these circumstances.
1. McCarthy isn't involved.
2. A's agree to pay part of contract
3. here is what a trade would look like.

A's Get: 3B Joe Crede
RHP Kris Honel
OF Chris Young
LHP Gio Gonzalez
OF Mike Spidale

Sox Get: 3B Eric Chavez

*A's pay 5 million for 06, 3 Million for 07, 2M in 08 and the Sox pay the rest of the contract

CLR01
06-04-2005, 11:44 AM
Did you really think you deserved your own thread?


That deal sucks.