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dcb33
05-23-2005, 11:27 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/cubs/cst-spt-cub23.html

alohafri
05-23-2005, 11:30 AM
Can't dumbass Paulie talk to Uribe privately about this? Does he have to say it to the press?

voodoochile
05-23-2005, 11:34 AM
Can't dumbass Paulie talk to Uribe privately about this? Does he have to say it to the press?

PK has a habit of saying things like this to the press. He's got a big mouth. Always has and always will.

Oh and I still disagree with PK. I don't give a damn about etiquette. So long as no one goes out of there way to injure, it's all part of the game.

downstairs
05-23-2005, 11:34 AM
Shut up and hit, Paulie.

That was pretty classless of Paul. Its part of the game! No different than pretending the ball gets by you on a steal attempt, just like holding the ball and faking the throw back to the pitcher on a pick-off, etc.

I just don't know what the problem is?

soxfan26
05-23-2005, 11:35 AM
It's Uribe's fault D. Lee didn't have his head in the game?

<yawn>

Let Dusty worry about etiquette, we'll worry about winning. Oh and Paulie ****!

downstairs
05-23-2005, 11:37 AM
I don't give a damn about etiquette. So long as no one goes out of there way to injure, it's all part of the game.

Exactly! What the heck is etiquette??! Its a professional sport, with the best of the best athletes, with millions of dollars at steak. Anything within the rules, without the intent to injure is not only fair game... its the RIGHT way to play!

I remember some Arizona player breaking up a no-hitter with a bunt hit a few years ago and everyone freaked out.

None of them could find the paragraph in the MLB rulebook that prohibited it, though... that much I know.

Sxy Mofo
05-23-2005, 11:37 AM
C'mon... it's lee's fault. Who do you trust, the opposing teams short stop or your third base coach?

Rocky Soprano
05-23-2005, 11:37 AM
Earn your salary before you talk Paulie!

He does this every single year! :angry:

BaseballTonyght
05-23-2005, 11:37 AM
I'd like to hear Hawk's take on this... he's typically my moral compass, with the perfect touch of bias.

voodoochile
05-23-2005, 11:39 AM
You know at the time and until Dubois hit the homer, that was a pretty big run. If Dye jacks one out in his final at bat, it's a huge freaking run.

Everyone's fault but the flubbies that they suck so bad...:rolleyes:

DumpJerry
05-23-2005, 11:43 AM
Sox first baseman Paul Konerko said ''I was on the ground, digging rocks out of my mouth."
Brooks-which Grinder Rule is this one? Number 78?

Uncle_Patrick
05-23-2005, 11:43 AM
I've seen Cubs fans call this event "cheating". People are acting like Uribe stuck his leg out and tripped Lee. Maybe it wasn't the most stand up thing in the world for Uribe to do, but if Lee had been paying more attention to the third base coach instead of Juan Uribe, he might not have had a problem.

If Nefi Perez had done this to a Sox player, people would be saying how stupid the Sox player was for listening to him.

PK should have kept his mouth shut about this. Talk to Uribe in private if it bothers you so much.

NonetheLoaiza
05-23-2005, 11:43 AM
Bottom line is that it is Lee's fault. Lee shouldn't be looking to Uribe to see if the ball is fair or foul. There is a third base coach with your uniform on, and an umpire down the third and first base line.

Uncle_Patrick
05-23-2005, 11:45 AM
Everyone's fault but the flubbies that they suck so bad...:rolleyes:

That's because the Cubs are so lovable.

downstairs
05-23-2005, 11:45 AM
Here's what I say the Cubs to do "even" out this terrible action by Uribe. Until then, they can just shut up.

Next time he's on first... go ahead and pull the "keep the ball in your glove" trick. See if he falls for it. If he does, we promise not to knock their otherwise clueless 1st baseman.

JRIG
05-23-2005, 11:45 AM
PK has a habit of saying things like this to the press. He's got a big mouth. Always has and always will.

Oh and I still disagree with PK. I don't give a damn about etiquette. So long as no one goes out of there way to injure, it's all part of the game.

Konerko has constantly been praised by the Chicago press for speaking his mind, yet the same people vilified Frank Thomas for doing the same thing in the 90s.

LVSoxFan
05-23-2005, 11:47 AM
Sorry I'm with Paulie on this. When I saw the tape I saw Uribe's hand gesture and thought that's all he did--I didn't realize he was saying "foul."

Do we really need to do things like this to win games? I don't think so. I hardly think this is a capital offense, but I'd rather think that the Sox are above things like this.

JMHO

balke
05-23-2005, 11:47 AM
Yeah, a lot of Cubs fans are saying Paulie is the one with class. GMAB. That is part of the SS job, its no different then tagging the runner as if you have the ball on a steal when in reality the ball was thrown into the outfield.

Derek Lee fell for a trick, it wasn't classless, Derek Lee was just stupid and didn't trust his 3rd base coach. I learned to ignore the other team in Tee-ball.

I guess that is the PC response for Paulie to say that Uribe shouldn't trick people, but in reality it was just a smart play. My one Cub buddy wrote up an article on his site about it, and said:

I'm glad the Cubs won, especially because they missed out on an easy run in the 1st inning. Instead, Juan Uribe saved a run with his acting. Let's break down the play:

-On first, Derrek Lee takes off for a steal with the pitch to Jeromy Burnitz at bat.
-Burny cracks one fair down the first base line and the ball caroms off the wall in foul territory, away from right fielder Jermaine Dye.
-As Lee nears second, Uribe calmly approachs the base with his hands up as if gesturing "foul ball," and Lee comes to a complete stop a few feet after touching the bag.
-After spotting the ball and seeing it was fair, Lee sprints to third but having to regain his momentum, he has to stop there.

Anyone have an idea how to work that into the scorecard? I hate the term "Smartball," but I have to admit that Ozzie Guillen has his players working all the little angles on the field. Maybe "Sneakyball?" Anyway, it was a great move by Uribe in a situation where the runner was clearly going to score - Burnitz made it to second no problem and Lee definitely has above average speed.

Shorty1983
05-23-2005, 11:47 AM
I agree with most of you, Paulie should of kept this inside the clubhouse not to the press. I just hope this doesn't change the chemistry in our team.

dcb33
05-23-2005, 11:48 AM
I'm definitely disappointed in Paulie because the Sox are all about hardnosed, team, do what it takes to win baseball, and that's exactly what Uribe was doing yesterday by faking Lee and saving a run.

I wonder if Paulie got the memo that the Sox motto this year is "Win or die trying," not "Whine or die trying."

wassagstdu
05-23-2005, 11:55 AM
Of course it is Lee's fault. But it is also poor sportsmanship. It is a game.

That said, I do remember once watching Ozzie call for a "pop up" that was actually off the wall, trying to get the runner from first to turn around. I see that as part of the game. Not lying to someone's face.

tstrike2000
05-23-2005, 11:56 AM
Bottom line is that it is Lee's fault. Lee shouldn't be looking to Uribe to see if the ball is fair or foul. There is a third base coach with your uniform on, and an umpire down the third and first base line.

That's right, starting in little leauge we're told to look at our base coaches. When a ball's hit to right field you have to pay attention to your third base coach to either stay or advance a base. I'm not saying Uribe's action was right or wrong, but I equate this almost to a catcher framing a pitch to get a call strike or an outfielder trapping a ball then lifting up his glove to sell the catch. Players try to use every advantage available to them.

As for Konerko, starting with him calling out Frank's leadership a few years back, I semi cringe whenever I hear a quote from him because of his tendencies to want to point out what the right or wrong thing to do is. I agree, the incident was a moot point at the end of the game, just shut up and worry about winning games.

Irishsox1
05-23-2005, 11:58 AM
The play by Uribe was a little sneeky, but the same way the old third to first fake by the pitcher is. As long as Uribe didn't get in front of Lee and hinder his running, then the play is o.k. Derrek Lee fell for a very lame trick. As a highschool SS, I used to tell runners that there shoes were untied. You would be surprised by how many actually looked down.

As for Paul Konerko, his comments are way out of line. You never, NEVER bad mouth a current teammate to the press...EVER!! Ozzie should sit Konerko out of tonights game to teach his something about loyalty to your teammates. You always back your teammates up to a fault. My respect for Paul Konerko has gone way down.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2005, 11:58 AM
Sorry I'm with Paulie on this. When I saw the tape I saw Uribe's hand gesture and thought that's all he did--I didn't realize he was saying "foul."

Do we really need to do things like this to win games? I don't think so. I hardly think this is a capital offense, but I'd rather think that the Sox are above things like this.

JMHO

I agree. In fact I think Juan should be shouting to the hitter before each pitch what sign the Sox catcher just called. The other team should never be deceived... the Sox are above this.

:kukoo:

JB98
05-23-2005, 12:00 PM
I can barely type because I'm so angry. WHERE ARE THE QUOTES FROM URIBE? Why didn't the Chicago papers give our shortstop the opportunity to defend himself? Maybe he honestly thought the ball was foul. Burnitz's double was just inside the line. Konerko didn't see the play. The media shouldn't be going to him for comment, and he is stupid for answering the question at all.

Just because Uribe is Dominican doesn't mean he can't answer the question. Terrible journalism by both the Cubune and the Cub-Times. I couldn't be more furious than I am right now. :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

jdm2662
05-23-2005, 12:00 PM
Does anyone remember game 7 of the '91 World Series were Chuck Knoblock faked a throw to second to throw off Lonnie Smith in the eighth. This costed the Braves a run and eventually the World Series. Did anyone say Knoblock was "unethicial" (sp?) then. I don't think so. Had Uribe tried to trip Lee or try and stand in his way running the bases, that's another story. There is nothing against the rules what he did. Had a Cubbie did to a Sox player, everyone would be praising him on how smart he was and what a great play.

And Paul, keep it in house if you have stupid comments. Give everyone a favor and actually hit higher than your weight, then talk.
________
VOYEUR RUSSIAN (http://www.****tube.com/categories/1161/russian/videos/1)

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2005, 12:02 PM
Of course it is Lee's fault. But it is also poor sportsmanship. It is a game.

It's would be poor sportmanship if the rules didn't permit the Cubs to have a THIRD BASE COACH specifically on the field to direct their team's baserunners.

Are you saying Uribe faked out the third base coach?

:kukoo:

Shorty1983
05-23-2005, 12:03 PM
Is Paulie disappointed because he got dirty and didn't make the play? Give me a break, there making millions but still playing a childs game.

I'm almost postive most middle infielders use the same trick.

seanpmurphy
05-23-2005, 12:05 PM
:whiner: :whiner: :whiner:

Cry about it Cubs fans, media, Dusty. You still won the game despite terrible base running and excuse making.

Konerko, go throw on a blue and red uniform if you want to act like that.

steff
05-23-2005, 12:07 PM
Sorry I'm with Paulie on this. When I saw the tape I saw Uribe's hand gesture and thought that's all he did--I didn't realize he was saying "foul."

Do we really need to do things like this to win games? I don't think so. I hardly think this is a capital offense, but I'd rather think that the Sox are above things like this.

JMHO



How about commenting on the point.. not whether it was Bush League - which I don't think it was - but that fact that big mouth Paul can't keep his trap shut.. yet again.

Second.. do we really need this **** in the press..? Does Uribe really need to be asked 50 times tonight - which he will be - "what do you think about Paul calling you out..???" Rather than.. "how's it feel to be playing such great ball..?"

Paul's got a lot of nerve running his mouth.. IMO trying to keep attention off his .220ish average. :rolleyes:

soxGirl14
05-23-2005, 12:13 PM
Lee was just stupid for listening to Uribe. Why would you listen to someone who wants you to lose?

Proof that not only are cubs fans stupid...so are their players.

Paulie cant even talk...you're on 1st base, not 2nd...just do your damn job and stay out of it.

Frater Perdurabo
05-23-2005, 12:14 PM
All of the PK defenders who, when presented with the truth of Paulie's rather pedestrian and maddeningly inconsistent stats for a cleanup hitter and 1B, resort to his building up his status as a "clubhouse leader" and a "vital part of the Sox chemistry" ought to re-evaluate their opinion in light of him calling out a teammate for preventing an opponent from scoring a run.

If Paulie was earnest and serious, if I were Ozzie, I'd rip into Konerko for making such a comment. If Paulie was joking, I'd tear Mike "#1 Cubs Fan" Kiley a new one for not putting the quote in its proper context. I thought Kiley was the Cubs beat reporter? What's he doing in the Sox clubhouse talking to Sox players? Did Kiley actually get the quote, or did another Cub-Times staffer write down the "quote" and then give it to Kiley?
:angry:

If Konerko was properly quoted, this is more ammunition for why the Sox need to just let Konerko walk away for greener pastures after this season and instead pick up Frank Thomas' 2006 option. If he wasn't properly quoted, it's more ammunition to shove in the face of the blatantly biased Cub-Times and their star reporter, Mike "Objective" Kiley. (And if that's the case, they still should let Konerko take his act elsewhere so someone else can overpay for his inconsistently average production and his chemisty-killing oral diarrhea.)
:angry:

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2005, 12:14 PM
Paul's got a lot of nerve running his mouth.. IMO trying to keep attention off his .220ish average. :rolleyes:

Did Konerko have a dinger in yesterday's game? Yep.

He only runs his mouth when he is seeing the ball well. This is the opposite of his "hang dog" routine whenever he ****s up at the plate. The common denominator for both is he remains popular with the media (for providing quotes) and foolish fans, too.

Yeah, he's a keeper. Let's pay him $20 million next time.

seanpmurphy
05-23-2005, 12:16 PM
If AJ had said this, "clubhouse cancer" would be everywhere!

WhiteSoxFan84
05-23-2005, 12:17 PM
called him out for WHAT??? are you KIDDING me?? wow. im sorry, i love pk, but he is the moron in this case. uribe saved us a run. it's like him playing in the OF and robbing a guy of a home run.if he doesnt do what he did, the final score is 5-3, still a loss, but if you look back at that 9th, the 3-2 pitch prior gave to rowand was a fastball down the middle. what did rowand do with it? pull it to the 3rd basemen. had he smoked it into the gap somewhere or just got a frickin hit, konerko's blast would've tied the game. small ball? i think we're still going for the long ball.

steff
05-23-2005, 12:18 PM
Did Konerko have a dinger in yesterday's game? Yep.

He only runs his mouth when he is seeing the ball well. This is the opposite of his "hang dog" routine whenever he ****s up at the plate. The common denominator for both is he remains popular with the media (for providing quotes) and foolish fans, too.


Exactly George.. he's quiet as a mouse when he goes 0-fer..

As Jim and I sat there Friday and Saturday we just could not figure out why most of the Sox fans were screaming - and yes..they were screaming it - "Paul-EE, Paul-EE... " We don't get it.. :?:

Paulwny
05-23-2005, 12:18 PM
Did Konerko have a dinger in yesterday's game? Yep.

He only runs his mouth when he is seeing the ball well. This is the opposite of his "hang dog" routine whenever he ****s up at the plate. The common denominator for both is he remains popular with the media (for providing quotes) and foolish fans, too.

Yeah, he's a keeper. Let's pay him $20 million next time.

The reward for feeding the press, their less likely to be critical of you when your in a slump.

seanpmurphy
05-23-2005, 12:19 PM
Yeah it's a little off the subject of this thread but I was kind of upset that just cause there was a breeze a lot of the Sox players were swinging for the fences rahter than just trying to get on base as they normally do. Granted, we did hit some home runs, but what are home runs if you lose the game? A winnable game.

steff
05-23-2005, 12:19 PM
If AJ had said this, "clubhouse cancer" would be everywhere!


No doubt about it.

balke
05-23-2005, 12:21 PM
Yeah it's a little off the subject of this thread but I was kind of upset that just cause there was a breeze a lot of the Sox players were swinging for the fences rahter than just trying to get on base as they normally do. Granted, we did hit some home runs, but what are home runs if you lose the game? A winnable game.

I think the Sox were just swinging harder and faster because they were chasing Prior's fastball. Noone had a shot at his breaking stuff yesterday, he was on.

Frater Perdurabo
05-23-2005, 12:22 PM
If AJ had said this, "clubhouse cancer" would be everywhere!

If HOF-bound Frank Thomas had said it, "clubhouse cancer" would be everywhere! :angry:

32nd&Wallace
05-23-2005, 12:24 PM
A friend of mine got into a debate a few months ago about Frank being a bad teammate. He mentioned back in 2002 when Konerko called him out. My friend said something like "i didn't realize how bad of a teammate Frank must have been to have konerko call him out."
To which I responded "what does it say about konerko to do this publicly?

tacosalbarojas
05-23-2005, 12:29 PM
Somehow I don't think Ozzie Guillen, he of the hidden ball trick Guillens, minded Uribe's deke all that much.

Paulwny
05-23-2005, 12:32 PM
This is the only positive I'll give to Torre. He's able to make the yankmee clubhouse appear to be one big happy family. Time for Ozzie to talk to Konerko.

Hokiesox
05-23-2005, 12:34 PM
I've umpired thousands of games, (in the interest of full disclosure, none at the MLB level) and I've seen FAR worse ettiquette than this. Lee should pick up his 3b coach, nothing else need be said.

mweflen
05-23-2005, 12:35 PM
Uribe is the bomb for doing whatever it takes. Lee was a fool for following an opponent's advice (if it was foul, what's the harm in still running? Lazy....). Paul "Hollywood" Konerko had better get his BA above .250 before he goes and assumes "leadership" of the team.

bayzbol44
05-23-2005, 12:39 PM
Hey, if Uribe can't hit, then he has to do something to earn his money.

The media's reaction to this is typical comments and examples of America becoming PUSSified. As my friend and I say, "Pussification of America".

Everyone used to do this in Little League and I have seen similiar things like this done in the MLB. SS fake the throw coming from the catcher when in reality it is a pop fly. Geez, get over it Dusty, your "boy" got faked out. Go over this in practice..."As you approach second base, look up at your third base coach to see if you should go or stay."

Paulie, keep your mouth shut and get your average close to .270.

maurice
05-23-2005, 12:40 PM
Uribe made a smart play to help his team win. Lee is 100% at fault for acting like a cub fan. Konerko needs to **** and thank Patterson for closing his glove too soon.

Jjav829
05-23-2005, 12:42 PM
If HOF-bound Frank Thomas had said it, "clubhouse cancer" would be everywhere! :angry:

And there would be claims that it was taken out of context by the media and the media would be ripped. So why isn't the same thing being done for Paulie? After all, how exactly do we know what he was reffering to when he said:

''You don't do that,'' Sox first baseman Paul Konerko said. ''If it's done intentionally, that's not right. I was on the ground, digging rocks out of my mouth. But you don't do that.''

He could be referring to anything. We don't know what that comment was a response to. Hell, it's not even clear what you don't do, except that you don't do "that," whatever "that" means.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2005, 12:50 PM
And there would be claims that it was taken out of context by the media and the media would be ripped. So why isn't the same thing being done for Paulie? After all, how exactly do we know what he was reffering to when he said:

He could be referring to anything. We don't know what that comment was a response to. Hell, it's not even clear what you don't do, except that you don't do "that," whatever "that" means.

From Sully in the Cubune:

Uribe's teammate, Paul Konerko, said: "You don't do that, if that's what he did. I didn't see it."

Are you accusing both Kiley AND Sullivan of mispresenting a direct quote by Paul Konerko?

Sorry, this one doesn't pass the smell test.

Flight #24
05-23-2005, 12:52 PM
From Sully in the Cubune:



Are you accusing both Kiley AND Sullivan of mispresenting a direct quote by Paul Konerko?

Sorry, this one doesn't pass the smell test.

Not to mention that the "that" occurred on the play where Paulie dove & missed (hence digging rocks out of his mouth). So what on that play "don't you do"?

Oh yeah, Podsednik must not have backed up Crede on a possible throw to 3d, THAT'S what Paulie was saying he shouldn't do!

No excuse for Paulie on this one.

Frater Perdurabo
05-23-2005, 12:56 PM
He could be referring to anything. We don't know what that comment was a response to. Hell, it's not even clear what you don't do, except that you don't do "that," whatever "that" means.

You're exactly right, Jjav. But Paulie has a track record of calling out his teammates in the media. And if he was a perennial All-Star or future HOF-er, oral diarrhea would be tolerable. Paulie's not a HOF-er or perennial All-Star. Even his biggest fans must acknowledge that.

Was piling on Frank Thomas in 2002 the mark of a good "clubhouse" or "chemistry" guy? Even if Konerko was completely joking with Uribe, he still needs his wrist slapped because as a Sox player he ought to know the Cub-loving media will attempt to manufacture controversy to help the Cubs in any way. Even A.J. Pierzynski knows this, and he's only been here a few months!

Is Konerko more interested in being a good teammate or more interested in being glib and popular with the media?

elrod
05-23-2005, 12:57 PM
Nothing like a tempest in a teapot. Hmm, there's Ozzie's tirade against the reporter, Dusty whining about Uribe's "foul" call, and Paulie calling Uribe out. Hit it Gary Coleman...
:whocares

Let's talk about the Angels and how we're going to do out West. We took two of three at Wrigely. The last loss stunk but you can't win them all. Enough of this media-generated nonsense.

Frater Perdurabo
05-23-2005, 12:59 PM
Sorry, this one doesn't pass the smell test.

Looks like oral diarrhea.
Sounds like oral diarrhea.
Smells like oral diarrhea.

Must be oral diarrhea, Paulie. :rolleyes:

tacosalbarojas
05-23-2005, 12:59 PM
Too bad Uribe is one of if not the least quotable of the SOX due to his excessive lack of understanding of English. And that fact that both beat writers are of Latin descent but don't speak fluent Spanish doesn't help. Where's Ozzie Jr. to interpret? We need a Uribe response on this.

Uncle_Patrick
05-23-2005, 01:00 PM
Is it me, or have the Cubs found something to complain about every year for the past few years regarding the Sox-Cubs series? One year, they were upset when Valentin imitated Sammy's homerun kiss to the TV camera. Then, Dusty was miffed that Jerry Manuel celebrated when the Sox won. Another year, it was a big deal that Antonio Osuna celebrated when he struck out Sham-Me Sosa in the 9th. Now they are upset that our shortstop tricked their baserunner. What a bunch of crybabies.

Irishsox1
05-23-2005, 01:02 PM
This a better article on the Uribe fake. Ozzie backed Uribe up all the way. Now it's time to talk to Konerko and ask him what Chicago team he plays for?

Link to Southtown Article (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/231sd4.htm)

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2005, 01:02 PM
Too bad Uribe is one of if not the least quotable of the SOX due to his excessive lack of understanding of English. And that fact that both beat writers are of Latin descent but don't speak fluent Spanish doesn't help. Where's Ozzie Jr. to interpret? We need a Uribe response on this.

Well, apparently Uribe speaks English well enough for Derrick Lee to understand -- even better than his OWN third base coach!

:roflmao:

Jjav829
05-23-2005, 01:07 PM
You're exactly right, Jjav.


Thank you. Just pointing out how things get treated differently around here.

On the bright side, Paulie doesn't face nearly the same backlash from Uribe fans. I wonder how this would be treated if he was hitting .280. At least he's working his way back up there. Stick a fork in him. He's done.

maurice
05-23-2005, 01:07 PM
Too bad Uribe is one of if not the least quotable of the SOX due to his excessive lack of understanding of English.

Good point. Maybe Uribe wasn't saying "foul" at all. Maybe he was calling Lee a "falo."
:o:

Norberto7
05-23-2005, 01:12 PM
From the Southtown article:

"That's the (bleeping) way we play," Guillen said. "That's the big leagues. That's White Sox baseball."

Absolutely right. And how, Derrek Lee, are people going to get hurt that way? Slowing down while running is a major source of injury. :kukoo:

Sour grapes, you were had.

I think the sentiments of most of you are right on in regards to Konerko's response.

Frater Perdurabo
05-23-2005, 01:16 PM
This a better article on the Uribe fake. Ozzie backed Uribe up all the way. Now it's time to talk to Konerko and ask him what Chicago team he plays for?

Link to Southtown Article (http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/231sd4.htm)

The Southtown has a much better story. Not just from a Sox fan's perspective, but from a journalistic perspective.

Konerko would be the perfect Cubs player: Prone to deep slumps punctuated by inconsistent power spikes, glib and a fan/media favorite.

skobabe8
05-23-2005, 01:18 PM
I'm really hoping Paulies comments were severely distorted and twisted by the sun-times, and he would never call out a smart play by a teamate like that. If not, I'm really disappointed in him. Its not dirty or poor sportsmanship. Its good gamesmanship. anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2005, 01:20 PM
Konerko would be the perfect Cubs player: Prone to deep slumps punctuated by inconsistent power spikes, glib and a fan/media favorite.

OUCH! And I'm the one fingered as a "Konerko hater."

:wink:

Frater Perdurabo
05-23-2005, 01:24 PM
OUCH! And I'm the one fingered as a "Konerko hater."

:wink:

Hey, I'm the one riding shotgun on Randar's "Bench or Trade Paul Konerko bandwagon."

:D:

Dick Allen
05-23-2005, 01:32 PM
Is it me, or have the Cubs found something to complain about every year for the past few years regarding the Sox-Cubs series? One year, they were upset when Valentin imitated Sammy's homerun kiss to the TV camera. Then, Dusty was miffed that Jerry Manuel celebrated when the Sox won. Another year, it was a big deal that Antonio Osuna celebrated when he struck out Sham-Me Sosa in the 9th. Now they are upset that our shortstop tricked their baserunner. What a bunch of crybabies.And after Osuna did that, the media, the next day, rails on him, "how could he do a thing like that to Sammy?" I'll never forget it, the Cub-loving media at its worst. It was as if, watch out, Sammy will remember this.

dcb33
05-23-2005, 01:36 PM
Hey, I'm the one riding shotgun on Randar's "Bench or Trade Paul Konerko bandwagon."

:D:

Maybe KW could trade Konerko for Sweeny straight up.

:KW
"Hey Paul, be sure to let us know how much you hate OzzieBall after you spend the summer in Kansas City."

rowand33
05-23-2005, 01:37 PM
I've seen a lot of anti-Paul stuff around the boards lately (which I'm sure will change if he stays on his tear...). You guys sound like f'in cubs fans.

now, I don't agree with him talking to the press about Uribe, but it really isn't that big of a deal.

And as far as his play is concerned...

the guy is on pace to hit 41 homers and 122 RBI (tie for career highs in homers, and a career high in RBI). sure he's only hitting .227, but a) if he his .220 and puts up those numbers, I don't care. b) his OBP is .348 (.381 in May). in his good 02 and 04 years his OBP was .359, he's really not been that bad...

the reason Paul hasn't been hitting, IMO, is his lack of protection. with Frank not there, there is no reason for pitchers to pitch to him.

now, I'd like to see that batting average get raised to at least .250, and would prefer it to be around .280, but I think we're selling the guy short. I'm not saying support him blindly, but c'mon people...

I don't like turning on stars because of minor struggles. It still makes me sick to think about people booing Frank in 2002.

--Mike

jshanahanjr
05-23-2005, 01:37 PM
I think the American game & Latin game are a little different. The Latin players treat the game a little more like life or death than the American ball players, and do what ever it takes to win. It's most of the Latin guys only chance at a good life. Paulie could be right and Uribe on the same play. I love Paulie, but he should have taken it up with Juan this time & Frank (2002) instead of the media. We want to know these guys, but sometimes what they say to the press gets them in trouble.

LauraJ14
05-23-2005, 01:44 PM
I think the American game & Latin game are a little different. The Latin players treat the game a little more like life or death than the American ball players, and do what ever it takes to win. It's most of the Latin guys only chance at a good life. Paulie could be right and Uribe on the same play. I love Paulie, but he should have taken it up with Juan this time & Frank (2002) instead of the media. We want to know these guys, but sometimes what they say to the press gets them in trouble.


How do we know if Konerko said anything to Uribe or not? Its not like any of you are in the dugout or clubhouse with the team.

Mark
05-23-2005, 01:47 PM
Now, if he had wondered why Uribe reached for an outside pitch that resulted in a weak popup with a guy on third and one out it may have changed things. Just kidding.

Hopefully this will be water under the bridge by game time tonight.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2005, 01:47 PM
How do we know if Konerko said anything to Uribe or not? Its not like any of you are in the dugout or clubhouse with the team.

Umm... perhaps the whole point is to talk to URIBE, not the media?

:o:

Flight #24
05-23-2005, 01:47 PM
Ouch! Gammons on Dan Patrick: "That bush-league play Juan Uribe pulled on Derek Lee. I'm glad Paul Konerko ripped Uribe for it too".
What are the odds if it had been Edgar Renteria that it would have been "heady'"?

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2005, 01:50 PM
Ouch! Gammons on Dan Patrick: "That bush-league play Juan Uribe pulled on Derek Lee. I'm glad Paul Konerko ripped Uribe for it too".
What are the odds if it had been Edgar Renteria that it would have been "heady'"?

Okay, now I *know* I'm right. Gammons thinks I'm wrong.
:wink:

:boston
"The third base coach is only there for decoration. He helps sign autographs during batting practice, nothing more."

balke
05-23-2005, 01:50 PM
Ouch! Gammons on Dan Patrick: "That bush-league play Juan Uribe pulled on Derek Lee. I'm glad Paul Konerko ripped Uribe for it too".
What are the odds if it had been Edgar Renteria that it would have been "heady'"?

Sweet lord. Gammons should end himself. Just listen to that statement, that bush league play. WHO'S THE MORON WHO STOPPED RUNNING?!

Uncle_Patrick
05-23-2005, 01:52 PM
Ouch! Gammons on Dan Patrick: "That bush-league play Juan Uribe pulled on Derek Lee. I'm glad Paul Konerko ripped Uribe for it too".
What are the odds if it had been Edgar Renteria that it would have been "heady'"?

I heard Steve Stone on the Score today and he said there was nothing wrong with Uribe's play. I can't believe the tears people are spilling over this play. Maybe Uribe should have waived Lee around instead.

Mickster
05-23-2005, 01:52 PM
I've seen a lot of anti-Paul stuff around the boards lately (which I'm sure will change if he stays on his tear...).

Is there a "tear" that I have missed in the last few weeks? :dunno:

voodoochile
05-23-2005, 01:53 PM
Maybe Gammons is just ticked because he picked the Twins and the flubbies to make the series and right now, the Sox are making a mockery of that massive brainfart.

Wake up, Boston. Dusty is a crappy manager and the tide among flub fans is already starting to turn...

Paulwny
05-23-2005, 01:54 PM
Ouch! Gammons on Dan Patrick: "That bush-league play Juan Uribe pulled on Derek Lee. I'm glad Paul Konerko ripped Uribe for it too".
What are the odds if it had been Edgar Renteria that it would have been "heady'"?

Yep, Jeter always does these types of things around 2nd base. He's never been "called out" by any players or media, different rules for big name players.

voodoochile
05-23-2005, 01:54 PM
I heard Steve Stone on the Score today and he said there was nothing wrong with Uribe's play. I can't believe the tears people are spilling over this play. Maybe Uribe should have waived Lee around instead.

LOL! Steve Stone is screwing up the flubbies season AGAIN!

How long until Dusty has something to say about that too?:rolleyes:

voodoochile
05-23-2005, 01:58 PM
Yep, Jeter always does these types of things around 2nd base. He's never been "called out" by any players or media, different rules for big name players.

No, it has nothing to do with that. It's because Dusty opened his big fat yap to blame someone else (AGAIN) for the crappy way his team is prepared to play baseball. The media grabbed the story and went looking for a quote. So who do they go to? Paul "Mr. Perfect" Konerko because they know he will give them what they want.

Now it's national news because you've got guys from both teams talking about it in major national newspapers. Boston is just looking for air time and looking to make a splash. It's always cool to come down on the side of "the right way to do things" and as long as you make sure and say that enough times, people actually believe it.

:casual fan:
"WOW! I cannot believe how dishonest the Sox are. Gammons is the MAN!"

and the beat goes on...

Dick Allen
05-23-2005, 02:01 PM
Seriously, why does anyone pay any attention to what the morons at ESPN say? I think we all know by now to just avoid that joke of a netwrok altogether unless you really need some laughs.

ND_Sox_Fan
05-23-2005, 02:02 PM
Konerko would be the perfect Cubs player: Prone to deep slumps punctuated by inconsistent power spikes, glib and a fan/media favorite.

I completely agree - the Pauleee chants that could be heard loud and clear all weekend (and the past few years) when he came to bat made me sick then, and would induce severe vomiting if I hear them for the rest of the year. But they would be perfect up there - it would have been better with an OEO if they had signed him this past winter.

PK should be on the first flight to Boystown. There is no room for this garbage on the South Side. And yes, I have disliked him since he called Frank out previously.

I bet AJ would like to beat the piss out of him....

RKMeibalane
05-23-2005, 02:16 PM
Konerko has constantly been praised by the Chicago press for speaking his mind, yet the same people vilified Frank Thomas for doing the same thing in the 90s.

I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that Konerko fits the "blue collar" image that many have of Chicago. Frank Thomas has always been an extremely gifted athlete, and so many things that are difficult for other players come easily to him. Therefore, people tend to get upset whenever he says something.

As for my $.02 on this matter, all I have to say is this: shut up, Paul.

LVSoxFan
05-23-2005, 02:21 PM
I agree. In fact I think Juan should be shouting to the hitter before each pitch what sign the Sox catcher just called. The other team should never be deceived... the Sox are above this.

:kukoo:

Nice straw man.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2005, 02:22 PM
Nice straw man.

Thanks. I learned it from you.

:redface:

RKMeibalane
05-23-2005, 02:23 PM
Sorry I'm with Paulie on this. When I saw the tape I saw Uribe's hand gesture and thought that's all he did--I didn't realize he was saying "foul."

Do we really need to do things like this to win games? I don't think so. I hardly think this is a capital offense, but I'd rather think that the Sox are above things like this.

JMHO

I disagree. As long as Uribe didn't physically stand in Lee's way when he was rounding the bases, he didn't do anything wrong. Furthermore, none of the umpires said anything about what happened. That should be the most telling aspect of this entire situation. Uribe didn't do anything that was against the rules of baseball.

I have seen other players do similar things during the course of a game. I have seen infielders act as though they're about to receive a cut-off throw when they aren't, in order to confuse the runner. I have seen outfields purposely break the wrong way on a ball in order to try doubling off a base-runner. None of these things are illegal. The only person who did anything wrong was Derrick Lee, because he was too stupid to look at his third-base coach. Why the **** was he looking at an opposing player for help?

People need to quit making excuses for the Cubs and calling the Sox cheaters. After all, it was the North Siders who had a steroid-user on thier team for the past thirteen seasons.

The Racehorse
05-23-2005, 02:38 PM
Baseball isn't a gentlemens sport, it's baseball... and Juan didn't do anything wrong.

Mickster
05-23-2005, 02:44 PM
Sorry I'm with Paulie on this. When I saw the tape I saw Uribe's hand gesture and thought that's all he did--I didn't realize he was saying "foul."

Do we really need to do things like this to win games? I don't think so. I hardly think this is a capital offense, but I'd rather think that the Sox are above things like this.

JMHO

THERE WERE 2 OUTS!!! I don't care what Uribe said or did to Lee, he should have been running hard once he heard the crack of the bat and not stopped. It's always 'blame someone else' when it comes to the flubbs. I can't believe there are actually people on this board who buy this load of B.S.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2005, 02:49 PM
I can't believe there are actually people on this board who buy this load of B.S.

Nobody believes it except LV... not that clear thinking on this matter is the exclusive providence of Dusty, Gammons, and Cubs fans of course.

:roflmao:

miker
05-23-2005, 03:01 PM
FREE JUAN URIBE!
(Especially once he starts hitting again...)

VenturaFan23
05-23-2005, 03:13 PM
You know what sucks in all of this? This 1 play is foreshadowing that we took 2 out of 3 from the cubs. Thanks again dusty, you tool. You have no right to talk about "proper etiquette" when you have latroy and zambrano on your team!

kevingrt
05-23-2005, 03:15 PM
You know what sucks in all of this? This 1 play is foreshadowing that we took 2 out of 3 from the cubs. Thanks again dusty, you tool. You have no right to talk about "proper etiquette" when you have latroy and zambrano on your team!

Zambrano's middle name is ettique and games manship

PicktoCLick72
05-23-2005, 03:18 PM
Everyone is blowing up what Konerko said. He has the right to have an opinion. I reall do not think this is going to cause a huge ripple in the clubhouse. Why as Sox Fans do we have to blow every prolbem of ours out od proportion.

hawkjt
05-23-2005, 03:23 PM
I agree that this is much ado about nothing. Juan did nothing wrong and Paulie made one little comment -who cares.

As for Paulie's performance I seem to recall some pretty darn big AB's from Paul lately. And yesterdays homer would have been huge if Juan had come thru in the 8th. He is getting on a roll,folks- give him a break. 40 homers and 120 rbis, we dont have many guys on the roster that can do that.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2005, 03:30 PM
As for Paulie's performance I seem to recall some pretty darn big AB's from Paul lately....

Which is precisely why Konerko suddenly has spine enough to stab a teammate in the back talking **** to the media and not keeping it inside the clubhouse, Mr. Great Teammate/Great Chemistry guy, as known by his legion of defenders.

If Konerko were still slumping we wouldn't have heard **** from him. When he is slumping he does his "hang dog" routine, and his legion of defenders are right there to protect his back.

Why pay him $10 million when we can pay $20 million or (dare I say it?) $30 million for his terrific performance and clubhouse presence!

:cool:

mjharrison72
05-23-2005, 03:34 PM
The bottom line may be a simple difference of opinion... where Uribe comes from (and Ozzie and most of us), you do little crap like that to see if the other guy is stupid enough to buy it. In this case, it worked, the cubs missed out on an easy run because of Lee's embarassing mistake, and the Sox lost anyway.
Where Paul comes from, apparently "you don't do that." I can definitely see how an average person might consider it slightly bush-league.

At the same time, guys do things to fake out players all the time, and I think ultimately the focus here should not be on Uribe for "crying foul" or on Konerko for saying he disagrees with that sort of move. The focus SHOULD be on Derrek Lee, who capped off a series of bone-headed baserunning plays with this gem.

That said, what we basically have here is a conversation about what is or is not bush league... Uribe did not break the rules, and Lee should have known better than to listen to him. Just because Konerko wouldn't have done it doesn't make it wrong, but Konerko probably should have kept his mouth shut.

bayzbol44
05-23-2005, 03:34 PM
[QUOTE=voodoochile]LOL! Steve Stone is screwing up the flubbies season AGAIN!

STONEY FOR PRESIDENT!!!

mikehuff
05-23-2005, 03:46 PM
It's amazing that this is getting so much publicity especially since this happened in the one game that the Cubs won! You would think this would be a much bigger deal if it actually cost the Cubs a win.

Chisox003
05-23-2005, 03:49 PM
Uribe made a great play, plain and simple...

Paulies the last person Id expect this out of....

This whole thing is getting blown way out of proportion

mjharrison72
05-23-2005, 03:50 PM
It's amazing that this is getting so much publicity especially since this happened in the one game that the Cubs won! You would think this would be a much bigger deal if it actually cost the Cubs a win.
Dios mio... it would be horrible. We think that's all we're hearing about now...
And this whole thing is overshadowing the two very important things we SHOULD be talking about: McCarthy's excellent debut and Vizcaino's subsequent and continuing suckiness.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2005, 03:51 PM
It's amazing that this is getting so much publicity especially since this happened in the one game that the Cubs won! You would think this would be a much bigger deal if it actually cost the Cubs a win.

Are you kidding?
:?:

One teammate calling out another teammate?
:?: :?:

Not on a losing ballclub, but a ballclub with 31 wins and the best record in baseball?
:o:

The sports media lives for this ****. They aren't paid to tell you and me the score. They're paid to fill in all the blanks in between games.

mweflen
05-23-2005, 03:51 PM
:tomatoaward I hereby award Juan Uribe with the Golden Tomato. He rules!

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2005, 03:54 PM
Paulies the last person Id expect this out of....


Pauleeeeee is the FIRST PERSON I would expect this out of... especially because he a got a dinger yesterday and the game-winning hit the day before.
:kukoo:

You have got to be kidding...
:o:

DickAllen72
05-23-2005, 03:55 PM
Can't dumbass Paulie talk to Uribe privately about this? Does he have to say it to the press?

Only someone dumb enough to fall for a deke like that would be dumb enough to call out his teamate in the papers by saying it's not the right thing to do.

Anyway, it's no big deal. I guess it was just time for one of Paulie's dumb comments to the press, and Frank wasn't around to pick on.

rookieroy
05-23-2005, 04:02 PM
The bottom line may be a simple difference of opinion... where Uribe comes from (and Ozzie and most of us), you do little crap like that to see if the other guy is stupid enough to buy it. In this case, it worked, the cubs missed out on an easy run because of Lee's embarassing mistake, and the Sox lost anyway.
Where Paul comes from, apparently "you don't do that." I can definitely see how an average person might consider it slightly bush-league.

At the same time, guys do things to fake out players all the time, and I think ultimately the focus here should not be on Uribe for "crying foul" or on Konerko for saying he disagrees with that sort of move. The focus SHOULD be on Derrek Lee, who capped off a series of bone-headed baserunning plays with this gem.

That said, what we basically have here is a conversation about what is or is not bush league... Uribe did not break the rules, and Lee should have known better than to listen to him. Just because Konerko wouldn't have done it doesn't make it wrong, but Konerko probably should have kept his mouth shut.


Everybody. What Uribe did is much more common than most of you think. Poor sportsmanship....maybe. Smart baseball.....you bet it is. The fundamental breakdown is Lee didn't pay attention to his 3rd base coach. Period.

Next time your at a baseball game, pay attention to the fielders and their actions as opposed to what the ball is doing. I saw Valentin do this same exact thing at least 5-6 times last year alone and I saw Hall of Famer Ozzie Smith do it twice!

Regarding Paulie and his comments...let's get over it and worry about his bat. Maybe Uribe will get the ball over to Paulie even faster now and put a hurtin' in his mitt....good for everyone!!!!!!!!!!

White Sox Josh
05-23-2005, 04:03 PM
Why the hell is Mike Killey writing a sox article. He should keep to his own buisiness which is making propaganda Cubs articles.

White Sox Josh
05-23-2005, 04:04 PM
Everybody. What Uribe did is much more common than most of you think. Poor sportsmanship....maybe. Smart baseball.....you bet it is. The fundamental breakdown is Lee didn't pay attention to his 3rd base coach. Period.

Next time your at a baseball game, pay attention to the fielders and their actions as opposed to what the ball is doing. I saw Valentin do this same exact thing at least 5-6 times last year alone and I saw Hall of Famer Ozzie Smith do it twice!

Regarding Paulie and his comments...let's get over it and worry about his bat. Maybe Uribe will get the ball over to Paulie even faster now and put a hurtin' in his mitt....good for everyone!!!!!!!!!!Exactly. In the old days Everybody did that.

NorthlakeTom
05-23-2005, 04:13 PM
How often do teams try to steal the opponent's signs?

If a pitcher is tipping his pitches, are batters supposed to ignore that? And what if a pitcher tries to decoy his pitches? Is that not allowed?

For pete's sake, why do catchers and pitchers cover their mouths when talking on the mound?

All this talk about "sportsmanship" is bullpuckey.

fquaye149
05-23-2005, 04:15 PM
wow - i never would admit to myself how stupid some people on this board can be about matters like this. Let me spell something out for you:

1.) If something is legal and it helps your team win, it is a good thing.

2.) Bush League is the same as saying "sour grapes"

3.) Only losers can be gracious losers.

In high school we had a play called "Be Ready For Anything." When the coach called it with a runner on second, the SS would cut behind the runner and the pitcher would whirl around. Everyone would start shouting at the CF to go get the ball and he would chase it down in the OF. The runner would try to take the extra base to third. Only, there was one snag: the pitcher never threw the ball. He faked the throw and would run the runner down and tag him out. A jam becomes an out in the blink of an eye.

Some teams blamed us. Some called it bush and boy did we look stupid when the runner stayed put on second. But guess what - we got our share of outs, and the coaches of the GOOD teams would admit that it was THEIR player's fault for not being heads up and even if they didn't, do you know what? At the end of the day, an out's an out. The best was when word got out, coaches would warn their players about the play ahead of time and yet runners would still get picked off. And we were to blame for that?

HA!

On this matter, at least, Paulie Lee and Dusty are all being little crybabies. Dusty and Lee are being crybabies because they got caught sleeping. Who in the hell knows why Paulie's piss-moaning. Maybe he'd be happier someplace else. I know I'd miss his HR and RBI but I sure won't miss his elephantine speed, his GIDP's and his hit or miss avg.

This outburst has not endeared me to Paulie and after 2001 and 2003 he sure has been treading some thin ice.

Shorty1983
05-23-2005, 04:20 PM
Given the scenario, let say Uribe knocked in the sac fly when we had 1 out and runners on the corners. Games tied at 4-4. Now add in Paulies walk off home run in the 9th and now he is the hero of the game. You think he would be complaining about Uribe's sportmanship? Paulie really needs to think about what he says to the press and the reflection it takes on the fans/team.

NorthlakeTom
05-23-2005, 04:27 PM
This outburst has not endeared me to Paulie and after 2001 and 2003 he sure has been treading some thin ice.
This is what bothers me. Uribe's dupe was perfectly legit, but I worry about Konerko's statement.

Then again, the Times story says only this:
''You don't do that,'' Sox first baseman Paul Konerko said. ''If it's done intentionally, that's not right. I was on the ground, digging rocks out of my mouth. But you don't do that.''

It looks pretty incriminating, but the media blowing things out of proportion is the rule, not the exception.

The dumbest statement in the article is from Lee:
''You don't tell someone it's foul unless it's foul,'' he said. ''I have seen it a few times. Some guys will do whatever it takes to get the runner to stop. Part of the game, I guess.''

Lee has seen it before, but he fell for it anyway. It almost qualifies as "Fool me once..."

Mickster
05-23-2005, 04:29 PM
On this matter, at least, Paulie Lee and Dusty are all being little crybabies. Dusty and Lee are being crybabies because they got caught sleeping.

Actually, I think Lee blamed himself and never called the play bush-league, b.s. or anything of the sort. While Dusty, Paulee and some others on this board have a real problem with the play, Lee didn't. He blamed himself.

rookieroy
05-23-2005, 04:30 PM
How often do teams try to steal the opponent's signs?

If a pitcher is tipping his pitches, are batters supposed to ignore that? And what if a pitcher tries to decoy his pitches? Is that not allowed?

For pete's sake, why do catchers and pitchers cover their mouths when talking on the mound?

All this talk about "sportsmanship" is bullpuckey.

Amen Sox brother!!!!!!

Couldn't have said it better myself!

"Bullpuckey"? Never seen or heard this word but I love it!!!!!

:bandance:

AZChiSoxFan
05-23-2005, 04:36 PM
Maybe KW could trade Konerko for Sweeny straight up.

:KW
"Hey Paul, be sure to let us know how much you hate OzzieBall after you spend the summer in Kansas City."


Yeah, perfect! We could really use a 1st baseman who hasn't been healthy enough to even get to 500 AB's in any of the last 3 seasons.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2005, 04:41 PM
....
All this talk about "sportsmanship" is bullpuckey.

You must have missed the memo, Northlake. As deep thinkers Dusty Baker, Peter Gammons, and our own LVsoxfan have already explained, Juan Uribe pulled a gun from his pants, shot dead the Cubs third base coach, and then told a fib to Derrick Lee on a two out contact play that should have seen Derrick flying as fast and as far as his tiny little legs could carry him around the bases -- whether the ball was fair or foul -- but left him just 90 feet from where he started.

:wink:

AZChiSoxFan
05-23-2005, 04:42 PM
I completely agree - the Pauleee chants that could be heard loud and clear all weekend (and the past few years) when he came to bat made me sick then, and would induce severe vomiting if I hear them for the rest of the year. But they would be perfect up there - it would have been better with an OEO if they had signed him this past winter.

PK should be on the first flight to Boystown. There is no room for this garbage on the South Side. And yes, I have disliked him since he called Frank out previously.

I bet AJ would like to beat the piss out of him....

Sure, why would anyone want to cheer for the player that leads the team in RBI and HR's?

balke
05-23-2005, 04:44 PM
Looks like they are going to talk about Sox/Cubs on PTI 2 topics from now, this might come up.

flo-B-flo
05-23-2005, 04:49 PM
Apparently there are folks in here that did not know this kind of thing has been going on in baseball since.......well before I was aware of how to play. That was just good wiley baseball by Uribe. Lee should have NO trust in the opposing team on a play like that. You run until your coach or the umpire tells you to stop. Not a player playing against you.

JB98
05-23-2005, 04:51 PM
My main problem with all this is the fact that Uribe was not quoted in any of the articles. People are taking shots at him, and he wasn't given the opportunity to defend himself. It's very unfair to him.

Other than that, this is a tempest in a teapot. This isn't going to hurt our chemistry in the clubhouse. I'm sure the media are praying that it will, but it won't. If it does, we're a far weaker team mentally than I think we are.

FarWestChicago
05-23-2005, 04:52 PM
First of all, there is NOTHING wrong with what Uribe did. It's no different than the hidden ball trick. If your opponent is enough of a gas brain to fall for it, that's too bad. Sportsmanship my ass. If you think there is anything wrong with what Uribe did, you are a fool, period. Perhaps kind hearted, but a naive fool.

Second of all, if Paulie actually ripped Uribe like that he should be seriously fined by the team for being a traitor. If the quotes are accurate, his behavior is reprehensible. Who needs a Sox player feeding negative BS to the Chicago mediots. My gawd. :angry:

flo-B-flo
05-23-2005, 04:57 PM
Zambrano's middle name is ettique and games manship I think Zambranus is totally nuts. One day he'll really snap and maybe deck dusty.

balke
05-23-2005, 04:57 PM
Yeah, they talked about it on PTI, a show where you normally try to take different sides of the argument. They both said it was clean, and actually a smart play. A great play for this kind of rivalry.

This is a weird argument. scattered Sox fans, Konerko, and Gammons all say this smart play was dirty.

A Cub fan who runs his own Cubs site, PTI w/ Cub head Wilbon, and the majortiy of Mods here, and scattered Sox and Cub fans all say it was clean and smart.

In the balance of things I think the cleans have it.

ShoelessJoeS
05-23-2005, 05:17 PM
great....now the media can have something else to find "wrong" with the best team in baseball...shut up and play paulie

steff
05-23-2005, 05:18 PM
I think Zambranus is totally nuts. One day he'll really snap and maybe deck dusty.



He is creeeeeeepyyyy. :o:

NorthlakeTom
05-23-2005, 05:23 PM
It was a dirty play when Lee didn't tell Pods that Zambrano was going to pick him off. Pitchers need to announce that they're throwing over.

And I expect Crusty Baker will instruct his catchers to never ever block the plate. Just say, "Pardon me," and move aside when a runner is trying to score.

MHOUSE
05-23-2005, 05:25 PM
This is part of the game. Players often fake throws and catches to gain an extra second or take away one step toward the next base. Uribe possibly saved a run, that's the same as hitting a solo shot. I would encourage my players to do things like this. So long as you don't interfere with the player (A-Rod swatting Arroyo's mitt) or attempt to injure someone, it's within the rules. Lee should look at his 3B coach.

A few weeks ago Larry Walker acted like he was catching a lazy fly ball when in reality it was way over his head toward right center. He faked the catch while Edmonds played it off the wall and the runners held up for a second or two and it was only a long single IIRC.

voodoochile
05-23-2005, 05:27 PM
If I am playing the flubbies from now until the end of the season, I am throwing every "trick play" I can at them. Fake pickoffs, fake dropped throws, "can't find the baseball", hidden ball trick, etc.

Everytime one works, the flubbies will start crying to the media. By the end of the season they will be a mental wreck... oh what am I thinking... they're a wreck now...

dcb33
05-23-2005, 05:52 PM
Yeah, perfect! We could really use a 1st baseman who hasn't been healthy enough to even get to 500 AB's in any of the last 3 seasons.

I was speaking in jest, although if Paulie continues to be a loose cannon by railroading his teammates and the Sox style of play, he may find himself out of here faster than it takes him to run to first base. If he thinks the team needs him more than he needs the team, he'd be well suited to take a lesson from Maggs, Manos, and El Caballo.

Rocklive99
05-23-2005, 06:14 PM
I don't see how PK, Dusty, or any of the sportblab radio hosts get off. Maybe DLee should pay attention to his coaches instead of get caught napping. This is coming against an organization who in the last couple of years has had the benefit of nobody finding a problem with many of their players' showboating antics (Sosa, Zambrano). This happens all the time, I can't believe the attention it's getting, and the PK/everybody else's comments, the media and sportsblab have seriously turned this sport into a joke.

I hope Uribe gets a nice ovation on the first game back home, I loved the decoy. He's become one of my fav players, and even if not hitting, he still helps us out

gosox41
05-23-2005, 06:22 PM
Yeah, they talked about it on PTI, a show where you normally try to take different sides of the argument. They both said it was clean, and actually a smart play. A great play for this kind of rivalry.

This is a weird argument. scattered Sox fans, Konerko, and Gammons all say this smart play was dirty.

A Cub fan who runs his own Cubs site, PTI w/ Cub head Wilbon, and the majortiy of Mods here, and scattered Sox and Cub fans all say it was clean and smart.

In the balance of things I think the cleans have it.

If there's no rule against in in the rule book and there was no injury and no intent to cause injury then I don't see why it's even an issue.

If PK wants etiquette then he should go marry Miss Manners.



Bob

Wsoxmike59
05-23-2005, 06:37 PM
Yep, Jeter always does these types of things around 2nd base. He's never been "called out" by any players or media, different rules for big name players.

Remember a couple of years ago the Yankees were in town playing the Sox and Jeter was on 3B late in the game, and when the Sox pitcher (I can't remember who it was....maybe Wunch) and as he went into his wind up Jeter shouted 'BALK, BALK!!" Causing the Sox Pitcher to stop in mid delivery and actually creating the Balk!!!

The Yankees won on that play, and I remember how pissed we all were about it, but it was also a SMART PLAY and it helped the Yankees win the game.

I think Jeter got drilled the next time he faced the Sox for doing it, so players have a way of "evening the ledger sheet".

JB98
05-23-2005, 06:47 PM
I can't believe we have over 130 posts on this topic. This is the kind of horsecrap the Cubs get themselves embroiled in on a weekly basis, and now they've succeeded in bringing us down to their level.

Pathetic. :angry:

mmmmmbeeer
05-23-2005, 07:13 PM
I wish I could remember the exact play, but the Sox pulled another charade in the sCrUBS series last season. I just remember it had something to do with the SS and 2B.

Paulie needs to shut his yap. Perhaps he's already forgotten what happened to his buddy Carlos Lee when Lee failed to adhere to "ozzieball".

LongLiveFisk
05-23-2005, 08:59 PM
I agree with everyone who is defending Uribe. Lee screwed himself up by just not being smart out there. Doesn't anyone remember back in Ozzie's playing days when he himself got picked off first because the first baseman faked the throw back to the pitcher and Ozzie trusted him without actually paying attention to see him physically throw that ball back? Gee, I don't remember anyone ripping on the first baseman for that. You pay attention, you don't end up looking the fool. Nothing wrong with that.

RSox78
05-23-2005, 09:15 PM
:whiner: "Hey batter batter, Swing batter." Every kid that has ever played litte league has been taught to "cheet" according to Musty and the cubhttp://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/icons/scrubs25.gif

TornLabrum
05-23-2005, 09:19 PM
Remember a couple of years ago the Yankees were in town playing the Sox and Jeter was on 3B late in the game, and when the Sox pitcher (I can't remember who it was....maybe Wunch) and as he went into his wind up Jeter shouted 'BALK, BALK!!" Causing the Sox Pitcher to stop in mid delivery and actually creating the Balk!!!

The Yankees won on that play, and I remember how pissed we all were about it, but it was also a SMART PLAY and it helped the Yankees win the game.

I think Jeter got drilled the next time he faced the Sox for doing it, so players have a way of "evening the ledger sheet".

I think that was Bill Simas who fell for the balk call.

Norberto7
05-23-2005, 10:23 PM
if Paulie continues to be a loose cannon by railroading his teammates and the Sox style of play, he may find himself out of here faster than it takes him to run to first base.

So, you're saying he's going to be here a very loooooooonnnnng time.

Norberto7
05-23-2005, 10:25 PM
I wish I could remember the exact play, but the Sox pulled another charade in the sCrUBS series last season. I just remember it had something to do with the SS and 2B

Didn't they somehow fool Perez or Patterson into getting doubled up at first on a fly ball? I kind of remember what you're talking about, though the details are fuzzy, I am sure someone here remembers them.

But yeah, this isn't the first time the Sox have pulled a fast one on the Cubs.

StillMissOzzie
05-24-2005, 01:25 AM
Not much new to add here, but here's my $0.02

1) PK, I disagree with your opinion
2) PK, I strongly disagree with your need to make your opinion public
3) PK, I hope FWC is right and Ozzie fines your big mouth
4) Heads up play by Uribe-poor sportsmanship, my ass.

And in a related play of chicanery & deception, one of the old-timers here will help me out: It was in the World Series, back in the 70's when the Big Red Machine ruled the planet. IIRC, the Reds were involved in this, but for the life of me I can't recall if they were they victims or the perpetrators.

The batter had run the count to 3-2, so the catcher made the signal for a wide one, to give him an intentional walk. Then, he got down in his crouch. The batter stood there with the bat on his shoulder, the pitch was strike 3 right down the pipe, fooled by the fake "pitch-out". Anybody remember the details on this?

SMO
:gulp:

Man Soo Lee
05-24-2005, 02:35 AM
And in a related play of chicanery & deception, one of the old-timers here will help me out: It was in the World Series, back in the 70's when the Big Red Machine ruled the planet. IIRC, the Reds were involved in this, but for the life of me I can't recall if they were they victims or the perpetrators.

The batter had run the count to 3-2, so the catcher made the signal for a wide one, to give him an intentional walk. Then, he got down in his crouch. The batter stood there with the bat on his shoulder, the pitch was strike 3 right down the pipe, fooled by the fake "pitch-out". Anybody remember the details on this?

It was Rollie Fingers facing Johnny Bench in game 3 of the '72 World Series. Runners at 2nd and 3rd with one out in the 8th. Cincinnati led, and would win, 1-0.

pczarapa
05-24-2005, 07:45 AM
Paulie needs to worry about his batting average, the pitchers tend to deek him easy enough

alohafri
05-24-2005, 08:50 AM
I agree that this is much ado about nothing. Juan did nothing wrong and Paulie made one little comment -who cares.

As for Paulie's performance I seem to recall some pretty darn big AB's from Paul lately. And yesterdays homer would have been huge if Juan had come thru in the 8th. He is getting on a roll,folks- give him a break. 40 homers and 120 rbis, we dont have many guys on the roster that can do that.

My point is that this is a clubhouse matter, not something for the press. If it had been Frank Thomas or A.J. Pierzynski talking, the phrase "clubhouse cancer" would be bantered around like there is no tomorrow.

Just shut up and don't hit Paul!

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 08:56 AM
My point is that this is a clubhouse matter, not something for the press. If it had been Frank Thomas or A.J. Pierzynski talking, the phrase "clubhouse cancer" would be bantered around like there is no tomorrow.

Just shut up and don't hit Paul!

Paul Konerko is bullet-proof with his defenders. If he's slumping, his defenders say he is trying too hard and leave him alone. If he's hitting and shoots his mouth off about teammates, his defenders say he's the "last person" they would expect this from and leave him alone.

It's unbelievable... the delusions about this guy...

kj.hayes
05-24-2005, 09:06 AM
Every game I've watched or seen this year, when Paul steps up to the plate, Sox fans go nuts like their watching the second coming of Babe Ruth or something. More often than not, Paul takes a seat a few pitches later. This guy is overrated. I can hear his apologists making the same excuses about how great he's *going to get* months from now.

And now he's airing his dirty laundry about a fellow player? It's been said before and I'll say it again: shut up and start putting the bat on the ball. To paraphrase the immortal Mayor Quimby, we're not paying you to talk.

The whole thing is a non issue anyway since the Cubs won the f'n ballgame. What a bunch of crybabies.

Captian Ron
05-24-2005, 09:13 AM
Paul Konerko Needs to shut his mouth and worry about himself. Should have got rid of him after last year when his stock was high. I say it all the time this guy is garbage. Paul Konerko "Mr. Double Play"!!:angry:

Frater Perdurabo
05-24-2005, 09:25 AM
Paul Konerko is bullet-proof with his defenders. If he's slumping, his defenders say he is trying too hard and leave him alone. If he's hitting and shoots his mouth off about teammates, his defenders say he's the "last person" they would expect this from and leave him alone.

It's unbelievable... the delusions about this guy...

You're exactly right, George. I have some theories but I'll keep them to myself. Let's just say there is no logical or rational reason whatsoever for Paulie to be "Mister Teflon" based on his performance for the past six-plus seasons.
:wink:

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 09:25 AM
Paul Konerko Needs to shut his mouth and worry about himself. Should have got rid of him after last year when his stock was high. I say it all the time this guy is garbage. Paul Konerko "Mr. Double Play"!!:angry:

:KW
"Trading Konerko was Job One last winter but I couldn't find any takers. So I went to 'Plan B' and traded Carlos Lee instead. Says a lot about which hitter was more valuable, doesn't it?"

Harry Chappas
05-24-2005, 09:48 AM
I don't necessarily agree with PK's comments to the press, but I'm not going to villify him either. Who knows? Maybe he was misquoted. Maybe he slipped up. Whatever the reason, I hardly consider this a case of high treason. Presumably, any bad blood it stirred up in the clubhouse, if there was any, was dealt with by Ozzie, Uribe, and Konerko.

I don't understand this intense hatred of Konerko, a guy that in my opinion, has been a solid performer for us. Yes, he is streaky as all hell, but then again, so was Ventura and he was beloved by the fans. I would agree that he is guilty of verbal diarrhea, but if he hits 35-40 HRs and drives in a 100 runs, I can live with it.

MeanFish
05-24-2005, 10:20 AM
I've been a Paulie supporter in the past, but no longer can I back him up. Perhaps his quote was distorted, but even if that is so, that's what happens when you talk to the media and he should know better. Leave the mediaspeak to Ozzie, who's got it covered.

We need to let him go after the season. Period. He's certainly not worth the money he's going to be demanding, and for a guy who supposedly has a bunch of positive intangibles this "oral diarrhea" certainly doesn't indicate that to be so.

:angry:

fquaye149
05-24-2005, 10:22 AM
I don't necessarily agree with PK's comments to the press, but I'm not going to villify him either. Who knows? Maybe he was misquoted. Maybe he slipped up. Whatever the reason, I hardly consider this a case of high treason. Presumably, any bad blood it stirred up in the clubhouse, if there was any, was dealt with by Ozzie, Uribe, and Konerko.

I don't understand this intense hatred of Konerko, a guy that in my opinion, has been a solid performer for us. Yes, he is streaky as all hell, but then again, so was Ventura and he was beloved by the fans. I would agree that he is guilty of verbal diarrhea, but if he hits 35-40 HRs and drives in a 100 runs, I can live with it.

Let me explain the emotion that you perceive as intense hatred.

In 2001 Manuel was a jackass to Thomas, the best player to ever play for the Chicago White Sox. Instead of backing the team leader Frank, Paulie backs Gandhi-slash-ripvan-winkle-slash-tinkerbell. He goes TO THE PRESS and badmouths Thomas, creating (ostensibly) a horrible clubhouse atmosphere.

Now it is 2005, we are the best team in the majors, perhaps in part because of the intangible clubhouse chemistry we have been hearing about all season and Paulie's loudmouth ass does it again - running to the press and badmouthing a player on his team.

Look at it this way: what if Dubya was upset at Condoleeza Rice and the first thing he did was go to the press and bitch about her? That's Paulie.

Monk Malloy was upset at his successor's actions with Tyrone Willingham and what was the first thing he did (or so it appears)? Bitches to the press. That's Paulie

Paulie's such a standup guy - or at least that's what he really really really wants to make it look like.

*****. And the worst is he goes on a weeklong TEAR (where he's not hitting much better than .300 if I'm not mistaken) in an otherwise piss-poor and pitiful season and that's what makes him think he can start flappin' his yap.

Paul Konerko: Who ya crappin'?

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 10:41 AM
Paul Konerko is bullet-proof with his defenders. If he's slumping, his defenders say he is trying too hard and leave him alone. If he's hitting and shoots his mouth off about teammates, his defenders say he's the "last person" they would expect this from and leave him alone.

It's unbelievable... the delusions about this guy...

And he can do no right with those of you who hate him. When he puts up good numbers, it's simply due to his place in the batting order. When he goes 3 for 4 with a groundout, you all say that if he wasn't the slowest player in the history of the world, he would have been 4 for 4. What's unbelievable is the hatred for the leading producer on the team.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 10:50 AM
And he can do no right with those of you who hate him. When he puts up good numbers, it's simply due to his place in the batting order. When he goes 3 for 4 with a groundout, you all say that if he wasn't the slowest player in the history of the world, he would have been 4 for 4. What's unbelievable is the hatred for the leading producer on the team.

It's really simple AZ. If a Sox ballplayer isn't hitting, he needs to fix it and not hang on a bunch of excuses about "trying too hard." If a Sox ballplayer is hitting and proves himself to be a lousy teammate by calling out another member of the Sox to the media, he needs to be called to account for it, "clubhouse cancer" or otherwise.

You want a double standard for Paul Konerko. That's your problem. I'm amused to reveal it for everyone else to see. And I don't need to "hate" Paul Konerko to prove it either.
:cool:

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 10:50 AM
*****. And the worst is he goes on a weeklong TEAR (where he's not hitting much better than .300 if I'm not mistaken)


It's been a while since I took a math class, but the last time I checked, 10 for your last 20 works out to closer to .500 than it does to .300.

Flight #24
05-24-2005, 10:55 AM
And he can do no right with those of you who hate him. When he puts up good numbers, it's simply due to his place in the batting order. When he goes 3 for 4 with a groundout, you all say that if he wasn't the slowest player in the history of the world, he would have been 4 for 4. What's unbelievable is the hatred for the leading producer on the team.

No, it's because despite going 3 for 4, he's still hitting .230. And because he's much more prone to hitting .230 than he is to hitting .300. And because his salary demands will likely be in the 8-10mil range despite never putting up an OPS of .900 or better.

A good comparison to Paulie is Kevin Millar. Here's their respective OPS:
Konerko 2001-2004 OPS: .856, .857, .704, .894
Kevin Millar: .931, .875, .820, .857

But Millar makes $3.5mil. Other guys who can put up mid-high .800 OPS's are Tino Martinez, Raul Ibanez, Dmitri Young. Heck - Jay Gibbons can put up similar #s. You dont' have to pay 8mil+.

The complaints on Paulie center on the fact that despite his inconsistency and the fact that even when he's "on", he's by no means a great hitter - he gets much love because he's "a hard worker and a great teammate". A grat teammate who calls guys out publicly when he's doing well and can't be found for comment when he's slumping.

fquaye149
05-24-2005, 12:21 PM
It's been a while since I took a math class, but the last time I checked, 10 for your last 20 works out to closer to .500 than it does to .300.
oh GOD. . . sorry. I forgot 10 for 20 is crazy balling. Especially when that 10 includes only 1 home run and God knows how many bleeding balls.

Not that he can't hit sometimes. It's the shuffle-song-and-dance with the media that bothers me.

fquaye149
05-24-2005, 12:24 PM
It's really simple AZ. If a Sox ballplayer isn't hitting, he needs to fix it and not hang on a bunch of excuses about "trying too hard." If a Sox ballplayer is hitting and proves himself to be a lousy teammate by calling out another member of the Sox to the media, he needs to be called to account for it, "clubhouse cancer" or otherwise.

You want a double standard for Paul Konerko. That's your problem. I'm amused to reveal it for everyone else to see. And I don't need to "hate" Paul Konerko to prove it either.
:cool:

Exactly - it's not like we're the FOBB's who continually say Kenny is stupid for no good reason. Paulie doesn't take crap until he does something irrefutably stupid (calling out Uribe for NO GOOD REASON).

Good grief. It's not even debatable. Look:

a.) Uribe didn't do anything wrong at all. Anyone who thinks he does should change their diaper.

b.) Even if he did, Konerko has no business calling him out. That's Ozzie or Kenny's job, and even Ozzie and Kenny should keep it in the organization (admittedly Kenny and Ozzie have not been so good at this, but at least they're the management. And they get called out when they do.)

Last I checked, Paulie's not the boss of anyone, is not the captain of this team, and asides from his HR and RBI has been hitting like Rob "Sally" Deer.

Shut the **** up Paulie. Play the game. Have fun elsewhere next year (I hope).

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 12:34 PM
Paul Konerko is bullet-proof with his defenders...

You're exactly right, George. I have some theories but I'll keep them to myself. Let's just say there is no logical or rational reason whatsoever for Paulie to be "Mister Teflon" based on his performance for the past six-plus seasons.


I'm pretty sure you and I are thinking about the same thing. I'm thinking about Kittle42 inside a casino last winter and the unsolicited opinion he got from a "Sox Fan" of a certain ilk suggesting it was important that we stick up for ballplayers like Paul Konerko.

:(:

LVSoxFan
05-24-2005, 12:34 PM
Man are people overreacting here or what?

All of a sudden Paulie's P.E. #1 for making some comment in the clubhouse after the game. Who knew how the question was even posed to him?!

Uribe seems unapologetic and after reading various comments--including D. Lee's--I changed my mind about this. At first I thought it was cheap but apparently this isn't a rare thing in the infield. When you've got Steve Stone saying it's normal practice and D. Lee admitting he should have been watching the third base coach... this controversy will be old news in about two news cycles.

My God, it's not like Paulie went on an Ozzie-like X-rated rant and called out Uribe like Ozzie went off on Magglio... I mean really, people: calm down. I hardly think the Sox clubhouse is going to blow apart because of a disagreement...

BTW, also: had we won the game that had the Uribe incident they'd probably would've been screaming a lot more on the North side, but winning sort of deflated its importance. We should move on. I'm far more worried about the double threat of Angels/Texas than whether Uribe and Konerko are now estranged...

voodoochile
05-24-2005, 12:46 PM
Man are people overreacting here or what?

All of a sudden Paulie's P.E. #1 for making some comment in the clubhouse after the game. Who knew how the question was even posed to him?!

Uribe seems unapologetic and after reading various comments--including D. Lee's--I changed my mind about this. At first I thought it was cheap but apparently this isn't a rare thing in the infield. When you've got Steve Stone saying it's normal practice and D. Lee admitting he should have been watching the third base coach... this controversy will be old news in about two news cycles.

My God, it's not like Paulie went on an Ozzie-like X-rated rant and called out Uribe like Ozzie went off on Magglio... I mean really, people: calm down. I hardly think the Sox clubhouse is going to blow apart because of a disagreement...

BTW, also: had we won the game that had the Uribe incident they'd probably would've been screaming a lot more on the North side, but winning sort of deflated its importance. We should move on. I'm far more worried about the double threat of Angels/Texas than whether Uribe and Konerko are now estranged...

It's not exclusively about Uribe and Konerko. It's about keeping it in the house. Can the other players on the team trust PK to come to them when he has a problem with something they did or will he go to the media?

Trust is fragile and teammates have to be able to trust each other.

You keep all problems (ESPECIALLY minor ones) private. From my perspective, PK is guilty of at least not thinking before answering. He should have said, "no comment" before saying he thought it was a cheap play. At the worst, he is guilty of making himself look like a big shot at the expense of a teammate. There is no good side to what he did, period.

I think the reason he didn't say anything privately is because he knew he'd be laughed out of the room and Ozzie would have let him have it big time. So, from my perspective, it's closer to the latter scenario - building himself up with the press at the expense of a teammage.

I am not as upset with his numbers as some on these boards - though I am not jumping up and down happy either - but there is no excuse or defense for saying what he said in the manner that he said it...

maurice
05-24-2005, 01:06 PM
It's delusional to think that there is a large cadre of devoted Sox fans who are unfairly biased against Konerko. What's the source of the alleged bias? What irrational motive causes devoted Sox fans to "hate" him?

It's much, MUCH more likely that many Sox fans are biased in favor of Konerko and leap to defend him even when he's done wrong. There's no question that he receives far more support from fans at the Cell than players with similar production. Hot or cold, the crowd always is up for a good, loud "Paulie, Paulie" chant . . . and I'm shouting right along with them.

The reality is that critics of Konerko cite objective and undisputed reasons for their criticisms. The Konerko Fan Club can't handle any criticism of their favorite player and charges bias (without providing any basis for the bias) . . . but entirely fails to dispute the specific criticisms and instead comes up with mushy, unlikely, or unprovable claims about how he's a "team leader," "hard-working," etc.

At the end of the day, there's no way he's earning his money, and he certainly doesn't deserve a long-term deal at a comparable salary.

FarWestChicago
05-24-2005, 01:08 PM
The Konerko Fan ClubI prefer Konerko Apaulogists. :D:

maurice
05-24-2005, 01:13 PM
That's surprising, West. I figured you'd push for the "FOK" designation. :wink:

Jjav829
05-24-2005, 01:20 PM
Paul Konerko is bullet-proof with his defenders. If he's slumping, his defenders say he is trying too hard and leave him alone. If he's hitting and shoots his mouth off about teammates, his defenders say he's the "last person" they would expect this from and leave him alone.

It's unbelievable... the delusions about this guy...

Uhh, exactly who isn't bullet-proof with their defenders? Frank Thomas could committ murder and there would be people here claiming that it was taken out of context or saying that murder really isn't such a bad thing. On the opposite side, Joe Crede could win the Triple Crown, a gold glove, MVP, and World Series MVP and there are people here who would call for him to be replaced. Some people just have issues with finding a middle ground. They can't criticize a guy because they like him or they can't give a guy credit because they don't like him. I don't understand it quite frankly. I don't see why it is so hard to criticize guys you like and give credit to guys you don't like, but maybe that's just me.

Frater Perdurabo
05-24-2005, 01:27 PM
That's surprising, West. I figured you'd push for the "FOK" designation. :wink:

I think FOGIDPK is even better...

:wink:

voodoochile
05-24-2005, 01:28 PM
That's surprising, West. I figured you'd push for the "FOK" designation. :wink:

or FOW (Friends of Walnuts) which also has a double meaning, but without all that nasty language filter issus...:cool:

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 01:31 PM
I don't see why it is so hard to criticize guys you like and give credit to guys you don't like, but maybe that's just me.

Here's what I've written about Frank Thomas and Joe Crede.
:?:

Frank Thomas is weak-minded and entirely too naive about the things he says and does publicly. He is his own worst enemy.

Joe Crede has been touted as the Second Coming by the Sox organization going all the way to the winter of 1998 when thirdbasemen Robin Ventura was let go via free agency to make room for this exciting new prospect on the horizon. He hasn't produced and he is lucky to have one more chance in 2005 because a guy like Willie Harris is on the bench for no greater sins than Joe Crede's, no longer a starter because Iguchi plays second base not third base.

Joe Crede and Frank Thomas are not bullet-proof.

Now why don't you explain what makes Paul Konerko bullet-proof, because there isn't a ballplayer on this team that is above criticism in my mind.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 01:34 PM
For good measure, one of Paul Konerko's best attributes is his humility. He would be the FIRST to admit he is overpaid and he admitted as much when he got his fat new contract back in 2002.

But please... go ahead and tell us which side is being irrational.

Frater Perdurabo
05-24-2005, 01:39 PM
Uhh, exactly who isn't bullet-proof with their defenders? Frank Thomas could committ murder and there would be people here claiming that it was taken out of context or saying that murder really isn't such a bad thing. On the opposite side, Joe Crede could win the Triple Crown, a gold glove, MVP, and World Series MVP and there are people here who would call for him to be replaced. Some people just have issues with finding a middle ground. They can't criticize a guy because they like him or they can't give a guy credit because they don't like him. I don't understand it quite frankly. I don't see why it is so hard to criticize guys you like and give credit to guys you don't like, but maybe that's just me.

I don't "hate" Konerko. I'm the first to admit I wasn't on board with trading Cameron for him in the first place, but I'd be overjoyed if Konerko was putting up Triple Crown numbers himself. I want him to do well because it would mean he's helping the Sox offense.
:kukoo:

For the money he's paid, I'm disappointed in his production.
:(:

For his billing as a "professional hitter," I'm disappointed in his frequent, deep and long slumps.
:(:

For his supposed status as a "clubhouse leader," I'm disappointed in his tendency to run his mouth.
:(:

I'm utterly speechless at the lengths to which his defenders go to defend him.
:kukoo:

Frater Perdurabo
05-24-2005, 01:41 PM
there isn't a ballplayer on this team that is above criticism in my mind.

AMEN!

Jjav829
05-24-2005, 01:41 PM
Here's what I've written about Frank Thomas and Joe Crede.
:?:

Frank Thomas is weak-minded and entirely too naive about the things he says and does publicly. He is his own worst enemy.

Joe Crede has been touted as the Second Coming by the Sox organization going all the way to the winter of 1998 when thirdbasemen Robin Ventura was let go via free agency to make room for this exciting new prospect on the horizon. He hasn't produced and he is lucky to have one more chance in 2005 because a guy like Willie Harris is on the bench for no greater sins than Joe Crede's, no longer a starter because Iguchi plays second base not third base.

Joe Crede and Frank Thomas are not bullet-proof.

Now why don't you explain what makes Paul Konerko bullet-proof, because there isn't a ballplayer on this team that is above criticism in my mind.

You missed the point. My point is that you are pulling out examples to fit your argument about Konerko being bullet-proof. There are a handful of people that won't criticize Konerko for whatever reason. Those are the people you are referring to. There are plenty of other people who can criticize Konerko fairly and give him credit fairly. Just the same, there are a handful of people who won't criticize Frank for whatever reason. There are also people who can criticize fairly and give him credit fairly. There's no such thing as a player that is bullet-proof. You are simply referring to a few people defending him. The same can be done for nearly every discussion where a player is criticized.

Flight #24
05-24-2005, 01:43 PM
For good measure, one of Paul Konerko's best attributes is his humility. He would be the FIRST to admit he is overpaid and he admitted as much when he got his fat new contract back in 2002.

But please... go ahead and tell us which side is being irrational.

Which is fine.....but I don't think that'll be his stance when he's at the bargaining table. Which is my primary complaint with him: any deal that pays him more than say $6mil/yr.

Frater Perdurabo
05-24-2005, 01:45 PM
There are a handful of people that won't criticize Konerko for whatever reason. Those are the people you are referring to.

It seems you agree with the essential point. We just happen to disagree on the sheer number of people who feel that way about Konerko. What you call a handful, I call a large and vocal legion.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 01:49 PM
You missed the point. My point is that you are pulling out examples to fit your argument about Konerko being bullet-proof. ...

Okay. I've already pointed out (several times) where my criticism of Konerko begins and ends. I don't feel he should be traded (not yet anyway) and I agree he has positive attributes -- like almost every ballplayer this side of Mike Caruso.

He's not wholly bad, but on the whole he gets the benefit of the doubt far more than any other Sox ballplayer could ever expect to receive and this thread stands as testament to it.

LauraJ14
05-24-2005, 01:49 PM
It's not exclusively about Uribe and Konerko. It's about keeping it in the house. Can the other players on the team trust PK to come to them when he has a problem with something they did or will he go to the media?

Trust is fragile and teammates have to be able to trust each other.

You keep all problems (ESPECIALLY minor ones) private. From my perspective, PK is guilty of at least not thinking before answering. He should have said, "no comment" before saying he thought it was a cheap play. At the worst, he is guilty of making himself look like a big shot at the expense of a teammate. There is no good side to what he did, period.

I think the reason he didn't say anything privately is because he knew he'd be laughed out of the room and Ozzie would have let him have it big time. So, from my perspective, it's closer to the latter scenario - building himself up with the press at the expense of a teammage.

I am not as upset with his numbers as some on these boards - though I am not jumping up and down happy either - but there is no excuse or defense for saying what he said in the manner that he said it...


Oh, like the White Sox organization keep things in the clubhouse so well, please Kenny and Ozzie mouth off all the time so where do you think the players learn it from?

fquaye149
05-24-2005, 01:53 PM
Oh, like the White Sox organization keep things in the clubhouse so well, please Kenny and Ozzie mouth off all the time so where do you think the players learn it from?

we've discussed this already

a.) they get a lot of **** for it

b.) they are MANAGEMENT, not the self-proclaimed (and certainly not confirmed) captain of the team, (or in reality,peer of Uribe)

voodoochile
05-24-2005, 01:56 PM
Oh, like the White Sox organization keep things in the clubhouse so well, please Kenny and Ozzie mouth off all the time so where do you think the players learn it from?

And your point is?

LauraJ14
05-24-2005, 01:58 PM
Okay. I've already pointed out (several times) where my criticism of Konerko begins and ends. I don't feel he should be traded (not yet anyway) and I agree he has positive attributes -- like almost every ballplayer this side of Mike Caruso.

He's not wholly bad, but on the whole he gets the benefit of the doubt far more than any other Sox ballplayer could ever expect to receive and this thread stands as testament to it.


I'd like to think that fans could give all players on the team the benefit of the doubt since they do wear the Sox jersey. I guess I get tired of the "bashing" of the players when they are not perfect and guess what, no player in the history of baseball has been perfect. Baseball is a game of streaks and slumps and you have to live with the good and the bad. For me, I do not pay much attention to the interviews with the players because you never get to see or hear the whole conversation. Just go on the field, play hard and try to win every game that you possibly can and see where that gets you.

ja1022
05-24-2005, 01:58 PM
''You don't do that,'' Sox first baseman Paul Konerko said. ''If it's done intentionally, that's not right. I was on the ground, digging rocks out of my mouth. But you don't do that.''

Wow. I must be missing something here. This sure seems like much ado about nothing...

And with regards to the whole Uribe thing, it seems to me Lee has played enough baseball that he should know the ball is in play until and unless the umpire calls it foul. If it ain't against the rules....

voodoochile
05-24-2005, 02:00 PM
''You don't do that,'' Sox first baseman Paul Konerko said. ''If it's done intentionally, that's not right. I was on the ground, digging rocks out of my mouth. But you don't do that.''

Wow. I must be missing something here. This sure seems like much ado about nothing...

And with regards to the whole Uribe thing, it seems to me Lee has played enough baseball that he should know the ball is in play until and unless the umpire calls it foul. If it ain't against the rules....

Lee himself admitted it is commonplace. Does that mean PK has never seen it done? All of a sudden, it's "not right"?

dcb33
05-24-2005, 02:01 PM
we've discussed this already

a.) they get a lot of **** for it

b.) they are MANAGEMENT, not the self-proclaimed (and certainly not confirmed) captain of the team, (or in reality,peer of Uribe)

Frequent management tirades directed towards people outside the organization should give Konerko all the more reason to tow the line and keep his mouth shut. If he's going to be a renegade, all of that anger is going to be directed at him at some point, perhaps during the offseason when he's trying to negotiate a contract with some other team, and it won't be a nonissue for the media to ignore. It's just plain stupid to run the risk of being labelled a "clubhouse cancer" during a contract year.

LauraJ14
05-24-2005, 02:01 PM
And your point is?

My point is that the manager and the GM do it so why can't one of the players?
A lot of people seem so concerned about the Sox keeping things behind closed doors but everyone wants to know what goes on behind those doors. Can't have it both ways.

Flight #24
05-24-2005, 02:06 PM
My point is that the manager and the GM do it so why can't one of the players?
A lot of people seem so concerned about the Sox keeping things behind closed doors but everyone wants to know what goes on behind those doors. Can't have it both ways.

Ummm....no. Wanting to know what goes on behind closed doors is one thing. Calling out teammates publicly is another. And both are completely different from calling out people who are no longer with the team!

Had Paulie responded "I didn't see it" or even "That's an internal team matter, if something needs to be done, we'll do it", it's a non-issue. Heck - even Ozzie in all his mouthy splendor doesn't sell out guys on his team to the media. His comments have been on guys who are not affiliated with the Sox anymore.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 02:07 PM
Just go on the field, play hard and try to win every game that you possibly can and see where that gets you.

See Laura, in a nutshell this is PRECISELY what this thread is about. If it was just about winning, Konerko's "trying too hard" excuse means diddly. The team is winning in spite of his mental excuses. Meanwhile if it is just about best effort, Konerko calling out a teammate publicly off the field hurts the cause. He's dividing the clubhouse between those that support his view of Uribe and those who support Uribe's view of Uribe.

You can't have it both ways... but that's precisely why this thread is screaming towards 200 posts. Some people here want it both ways for Paul Konerko... far beyond what any other Sox ballplayer could ever hope to expect.

ja1022
05-24-2005, 02:14 PM
Lee himself admitted it is commonplace. Does that mean PK has never seen it done? All of a sudden, it's "not right"?

It just seems to me that it was a fairly innocuous quote, and hardly newsworthy. I'm thinking if this whole thing had happened against any other team than the Cubs, Konerko's not even quoted.

Continue to win, and nobody gives a **** about this in a week.

hawkjt
05-24-2005, 02:18 PM
It is clearly time to just release Konerko. He is a cancer that has contributed nothing to this teams success. Lets just get it over with.

fquaye149
05-24-2005, 02:21 PM
See Laura, in a nutshell this is PRECISELY what this thread is about. If it was just about winning, Konerko's "trying too hard" excuse means diddly. The team is winning in spite of his mental excuses. Meanwhile if it is just about best effort, Konerko calling out a teammate publicly off the field hurts the cause. He's dividing the clubhouse between those that support his view of Uribe and those who support Uribe's view of Uribe.

You can't have it both ways... but that's precisely why this thread is screaming towards 200 posts. Some people here want it both ways for Paul Konerko... far beyond what any other Sox ballplayer could ever hope to expect.

exactly - even beyond the inappropriateness of calling out uribe, paulie has forced us to pick sides.

Either we're for Uribe, or we, along with chatterbox paulie and dusty baker, are against Uribe.

Sorry - but Uribe didn't do anything wrong, and even if he did something "bush" (not that "bush league" really exists), I'd side with my player, not with the cubs.

The end.

Chisox003
05-24-2005, 02:21 PM
It is clearly time to just release Konerko. He is a cancer that has contributed nothing to this teams success. Lets just get it over with.

Oh please.......

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

LauraJ14
05-24-2005, 02:36 PM
Ummm....no. Wanting to know what goes on behind closed doors is one thing. Calling out teammates publicly is another. And both are completely different from calling out people who are no longer with the team!

Had Paulie responded "I didn't see it" or even "That's an internal team matter, if something needs to be done, we'll do it", it's a non-issue. Heck - even Ozzie in all his mouthy splendor doesn't sell out guys on his team to the media. His comments have been on guys who are not affiliated with the Sox anymore.


So Frank Thomas is no longer with the team? Didn't Ozzie just call out several of his own players for their supposed bad attitudes last season?

LauraJ14
05-24-2005, 02:41 PM
exactly - even beyond the inappropriateness of calling out uribe, paulie has forced us to pick sides.

Either we're for Uribe, or we, along with chatterbox paulie and dusty baker, are against Uribe.

Sorry - but Uribe didn't do anything wrong, and even if he did something "bush" (not that "bush league" really exists), I'd side with my player, not with the cubs.

The end.


I glad that its so cut and dried in your mind about picking sides. I'm on neither side, Uribe did what he did, while I think it's kind of juvenile, it worked. We still lost the game so in the end, does it really matter?

steranim
05-24-2005, 02:42 PM
exactly - even beyond the inappropriateness of calling out uribe, paulie has forced us to pick sides.

Either we're for Uribe, or we, along with chatterbox paulie and dusty baker, are against Uribe.

Sorry - but Uribe didn't do anything wrong, and even if he did something "bush" (not that "bush league" really exists), I'd side with my player, not with the cubs.

The end.

DAMN RIGHT.
I'd side with my player, not with the cubs.
This has beem going on for 2 days.
The End.

Chez
05-24-2005, 02:47 PM
This molehill has now reached Mt. Everest proportions. For what it's worth, last night Cub announcer Bob Brenly stated that he disagreed with Baker and Lee (and I suppose Konerko) -- that Uribe's deke was a smart, heads-up play that didn't break any rules -- written or unwritten. He blamed Lee for failing to pick up either the ball or his third base coach.

balke
05-24-2005, 02:50 PM
This has beem going on for 2 days.
The End.

THE END

NorthlakeTom
05-24-2005, 02:51 PM
''You don't do that,'' Sox first baseman Paul Konerko said. ''If it's done intentionally, that's not right. I was on the ground, digging rocks out of my mouth. But you don't do that.''

Wow. I must be missing something here. This sure seems like much ado about nothing...
I'm missing it as well.

I don't read Konerko's statement as "calling out" anybody. To me, it sounds like a statement of personal ethics/etiquette. Just because it's something Konerko wouldn't do doesn't mean he's calling out his teammate for doing so. I can put myself in such a position. There are certain ways I do my own job. There are lines I won't cross. There are other people at work who have no problem crossing those lines. They are minor work habits, and I don't think any less of my co-workers because of it. They have their methods, and I have mine. No big deal.

I don't know what some people are reading into those four sentences from the Sun-Times, but I'm not seeing it. It's no big deal.

Flight #24
05-24-2005, 02:55 PM
So Frank Thomas is no longer with the team? Didn't Ozzie just call out several of his own players for their supposed bad attitudes last season?

Go back and read the quotes. Ozzie didn't call anyone out. he said the attitude now was extremely different from the attitude in past years, and that everyone associated with those teams is at fault for it. Frank being isolated in that was done not by Ozzie, but by the media.

Big difference in calling out the entire team and singling out individual players. Ozzie specifically said "All the guys who were here".

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 03:03 PM
I don't know what some people are reading into those four sentences from the Sun-Times, but I'm not seeing it. It's no big deal.

We'll leave your name off the invitation list to the thread about the next "clubhouse cancer."

:cool:

Hangar18
05-24-2005, 03:14 PM
It just seems to me that it was a fairly innocuous quote, and hardly newsworthy. I'm thinking if this whole thing had happened against any other team than the Cubs, Konerko's not even quoted.

Continue to win, and nobody gives a **** about this in a week.

Im thinking that was a pretty innocent quote, and were very lucky theyre
on the road, otherwise, Konerko would be getting roasted in the media. You see folks, the Chicago Media, while pretending to pay attention since May 6th, really are willing to do anything and everything, even if it means blowing up quotes, covering up brawls across from the The Shrine, anything, to make
the SOX look bad. To me, this is just another example of the Media showing their true colors. and Brad Palmer did nothing wrong by the way ......
I dont think Prior won that game sunday as much as Ozz lost it for us. The papers though .....whew, you would think he threw a no-hitter!!!!

BarbG
05-24-2005, 03:50 PM
I'm missing it as well...

Just because it's something Konerko wouldn't do doesn't mean he's calling out his teammate for doing so...

Yes he did. There's a huge difference in saying, "I wouldn't do that, but he does." and "You don't do that."

One means I personally don't do it but there's nothing wrong with it.

The other means I personally don't do it - AND "you" - NOBODY - should ever do it.

Paulie should have left those rocks in his mouth.

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 04:12 PM
Okay. I've already pointed out (several times) where my criticism of Konerko begins and ends. I don't feel he should be traded (not yet anyway) and I agree he has positive attributes -- like almost every ballplayer this side of Mike Caruso.

He's not wholly bad, but on the whole he gets the benefit of the doubt far more than any other Sox ballplayer could ever expect to receive and this thread stands as testament to it.

George, I appreciate the fact that you have at least had a compliment for PK in this thread. I also appreciate the fact that you are willing to criticize all of the Sox players when the situation calls for it. I for one, tend to be the exact opposite of you: I seem to want to give the benefit of the doubt to all the Sox players (Except for Borchard) when they're in a situation in which everyone's piling on them. Look, I understand that Uribe made a great play on Sunday and I was disappointed in PK for saying what he said. But I'm not going to say "dump the freaking jerk and trade him for a bag 'o balls" because of his stupid comment (I know you haven't said that, but others in this thread have certainly given that impression). I guess I'm a bottom line kind of guy and I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt due to the fact that in 4 of the last 5 years, he's had at least 97 RBI. Some people around here act like the guy has never driven in a run before. I too get frustrated with his long slumps, but given his overall production, I'm willing to live with them.

You mention that this thread stands as a testament to how many people love PK and apologize for him. From what I've seen, myself, LV, and Northlake Tom are standing up for PK and just about everyone else is ripping him.

I was very disappointed in the card you played in post 158 of this thread. That's really got very, very little to do with it (NOTHING at all to do with it from my position, but I do realize that unfortunately there are people like that out there). You make very compelling arguments but playing that card was flat out weak. If you think it did have a lot to do with it, then please tell me why Ozzie and Frank are so popular.

Lastly, Given the deal that Richie Sexson got this past winter, given the fact that PK has to look out for himself and his family in his next contract, and given the fact that some team will overpay for him next year, I am not in favor of the Sox signing him after this year. They need to let him go and use the money in a similar fashion to what they did this winter with the dough saved from the Lee deal, IMO. Assuming that when Frank comes back, he's the typical Frank that we all know and love, I would rather see him back for the next few years.

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 04:15 PM
:tomatoaward :tomatoaward

maurice
05-24-2005, 04:17 PM
Yes he did. There's a huge difference in saying, "I wouldn't do that, but he does." and "You don't do that." One means I personally don't do it but there's nothing wrong with it. The other means I personally don't do it - AND "you" - NOBODY - should ever do it. Paulie should have left those rocks in his mouth.

Exactly. He had no problem using the first-person in the "rocks" context. The lack of first person language in the rest of the quote indicates that he's talking about what other people should and should not do.

I agree with those who think that some of the options in the poll = blowing the quote out of proportion . . . but Konerko's Dusty-esque statements were wrong and contrary to the FOW notion that he's a clubhouse leader.

NorthlakeTom
05-24-2005, 04:24 PM
Yes he did. There's a huge difference in saying, "I wouldn't do that, but he does." and "You don't do that."

One means I personally don't do it but there's nothing wrong with it.

The other means I personally don't do it - AND "you" - NOBODY - should ever do it.

Paulie should have left those rocks in his mouth.
I agree he should have kept his mouth shut.

That said, while you are entitled to your interpretation, I disagree with it.

I just don't read it that way. To me, it's the same as if I said, "You don't change lanes without using your turn signal." That doesn't mean I am "calling out" everyone who fails to signal. It doesn't mean I have a personal vendetta against such drivers. It just means that I feel there is a proper way to drive. Konerko feels there is a proper way to play. That's all it is, in my opinion.

This "incident" is being blown way out of proportion. If there was something personal between Konerko and Uribe as a result of the play, then there would be value to the story. However, as I don't go into road rage over turn signal use, Konerko hasn't expressed anything that suggests bad feelings toward Uribe.

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 04:25 PM
I'd like to think that fans could give all players on the team the benefit of the doubt since they do wear the Sox jersey. I guess I get tired of the "bashing" of the players when they are not perfect and guess what, no player in the history of baseball has been perfect. Baseball is a game of streaks and slumps and you have to live with the good and the bad. For me, I do not pay much attention to the interviews with the players because you never get to see or hear the whole conversation. Just go on the field, play hard and try to win every game that you possibly can and see where that gets you.

Totally agree, but...watchout. Get ready to get trashed....just like Crede, Uribe, Konerko, Dye, Vizcaino, Shingo, Willie, etc, etc.

NorthlakeTom
05-24-2005, 04:27 PM
Exactly. He had no problem using the first-person in the "rocks" context. The lack of first person language in the rest of the quote indicates that he's talking about what other people should and should not do.
His statement about being in the rocks was meant to convey that he didn't see the play.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 04:28 PM
I was very disappointed in the card you played in post 158 of this thread. That's really got very, very little to do with it (NOTHING at all to do with it from my position, but I do realize that unfortunately there are people like that out there).

And the fact that at least one "Sox Fan" has stated what it is that disappoints you so much, is precisely why we agree on the subject. (Note I only use teal in referring to this person. He isn't a Sox Fan. Just a bigot.)

If somebody angry about Frank Thomas, or Carl Everett, or Juan Uribe should somehow cite similar reasons for their anger, I would be pissed off too. And for the record I'm sure we both agree about that one, too.

:thumbsup:

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 04:33 PM
Exactly. He had no problem using the first-person in the "rocks" context. The lack of first person language in the rest of the quote indicates that he's talking about what other people should and should not do.

I agree with those who think that some of the options in the poll = blowing the quote out of proportion . . . but Konerko's Dusty-esque statements were wrong and contrary to the FOW notion that he's a clubhouse leader.

This is really reaching unbelievable status....

I think he really used the predicate nominative with the past participle to describe the first person plural pronoun, but he left out the adverb.......

NorthlakeTom
05-24-2005, 04:38 PM
You mention that this thread stands as a testament to how many people love PK and apologize for him. From what I've seen, myself, LV, and Northlake Tom are standing up for PK and just about everyone else is ripping him.
Thank you.

I'm new to this forum, but I've noticed the discussion gets very heated when discussing PK. No offense to anyone, but it seems rather like a soap opera at times.

I don't understand what the "love" and "apologetic" talk is all about. As I said, I'm new, but I haven't yet recognized anyone's opinion that could be characterized as love or apology.

My opinion in this thread would be the same regardless of who made the comment to the Sun-Times. My opinion is based on the comment, not the player who made it. As I've stated repeatedly, I don't read the comment as being significant or even newsworthy.

What may appear as a defense of Konerko is really a defense of any player to make similar harmless comments to the press. Perhaps he should have said nothing, but I'm not calling for his head just because he did.

maurice
05-24-2005, 04:39 PM
To me, it's the same as if I said, "You don't change lanes without using your turn signal."

Which means that people other than the person speaking should not change lanes without signaling. When English-speaking people refer to themselves and not other people, they use the first person singlular.

It's entirely possible that Konerko didn't say what he meant . . . but what he actually said is not consistent with your interpretation.

Konerko feels there is a proper way to play.

Right. He feels that there is a proper way for MLB baseball players, such as Juan Uribe and Paul Konerko, to play. He also feels that Uribe's play was not consistent with that, which is why he said ''You don't do that . . . that's not right . . . you don't do that." He didn't say, "I don't do that."

Exactly. He had no problem using the first-person in the "rocks" context. The lack of first person language in the rest of the quote indicates that he's talking about what other people should and should not do.

His statement about being in the rocks was meant to convey that he didn't see the play.

:?: What does this have to do with anything?

voodoochile
05-24-2005, 04:53 PM
:tomatoaward :tomatoaward

Not going to cut it... this one deserves a showerhead...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/winningugly/showerhead.GIF

NorthlakeTom
05-24-2005, 04:57 PM
Which means that people other than the person speaking should not change lanes without signaling. When English-speaking people refer to themselves and not other people, they use the first person singlular.

It's entirely possible that Konerko didn't say what he meant . . . but what he actually said is not consistent with your interpretation.



Right. He feels that there is a proper way for MLB baseball players, such as Juan Uribe and Paul Konerko, to play. He also feels that Uribe's play was not consistent with that, which is why he said ''You don't do that . . . that's not right . . . you don't do that." He didn't say, "I don't do that."





:?: What does this have to do with anything?
You have your opinion, and I have mine. If you want to dissect Konerko's statement, that's fine, but I just don't see it from your point of view.

Let me elaborate.

I feel everyone should look both ways before crossing the street. That is my opinion, and that is how I conduct myself. If I'm being interviewed by a reporter on a street corner, and a friend of mine darts into traffic without looking, how should I reply if the reporter brings it up? Should I consider my friends "feelings" before answering? Should our friendship hinge on my answer? Of course not. I'd say it was a dumb thing to do. I'd say, "You don't cross the street without looking both ways." I wouldn't be "calling out" my friend (the title of this thread is "Konerko calls out Uribe"). There would be no bad blood between us because of my opinion on pedestrian activity.

Now, you could make the case that baseball chemistry is more fragile than my friendship, but you can't tell me that Konerko's opinion on deking is any more significant than mine on crossing the street.

fquaye149
05-24-2005, 04:59 PM
I just don't read it that way. To me, it's the same as if I said, "You don't change lanes without using your turn signal." That doesn't mean I am "calling out" everyone who fails to signal. It doesn't mean I have a personal vendetta against such drivers. It just means that I feel there is a proper way to drive. Konerko feels there is a proper way to play. That's all it is, in my opinion.



Are you CRAZY?

If you were witness to an accident where someone got sideswiped by a car not using turn signals and you said to the police taking an accident report, "you don't change lanes without a turn signal," what would it mean connotatively?

We're not twisting anyone's words. It's very very very clear what was said.




Let's use logic (something unfamiliar to many WSI posters esp. in this thread)

STATEMENT A: Paul Konerko made it clear that in regard to a specific incident that he thinks people who "deke out" runners are playing the game in the wrong way

STATEMENT B: Juan Uribe, in that incident, "deked out" a runner.

STATEMENT C: Paul Konerko made it clear that in regard to a specific incident that Juan Uribe is playing the game in the wrong way.

Pretend this is the SAT - is STATEMENT C correct?

Check yes or no.

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 05:02 PM
Not going to cut it... this one deserves a showerhead...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/winningugly/showerhead.GIF


My apologies. I stand corrected.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 05:03 PM
I feel everyone should look both ways before crossing the street. That is my opinion, and that is how I conduct myself. If I'm being interviewed by a reporter on a street corner, and a friend of mine darts into traffic without looking, how should I reply if the reporter brings it up? Should I consider my friends "feelings" before answering? Should our friendship hinge on my answer? Of course not. I'd say it was a dumb thing to do. I'd say, "You don't cross the street without looking both ways." I wouldn't be "calling out" my friend (the title of this thread is "Konerko calls out Uribe"). There would be no bad blood between us because of my opinion on pedestrian activity.

Now, you could make the case that baseball chemistry is more fragile than my friendship, but you can't tell me that Konerko's opinion on deking is any more significant than mine on crossing the street.

What a silly analogy. If everyone crossing the street were doing so on behalf of some wider "team effort" perhaps you would finally concede that the best place for Konerko to take up his private beef with Uribe would be in private -- that good teammates talk face to face, not through the media -- that clubhouse cancers sap the strength of a team, and nobody would ever confuse these dopes with the kind of teammates anyone would want on their team.

Paul Konerko needs Juan Uribe, not cheap quotes for the media to air publicly -- not just in the Sun-Times but the Cubune, too.

voodoochile
05-24-2005, 05:04 PM
My apologies. I stand corrected.

DAMN IT GET IT RIGHT NEXT TIME!!! :wink:

Just wanted to keep the passion flowing...:tongue:

NorthlakeTom
05-24-2005, 05:08 PM
Are you CRAZY?

If you were witness to an accident where someone got sideswiped by a car not using turn signals and you said to the police taking an accident report, "you don't change lanes without a turn signal," what would it mean connotatively?

We're not twisting anyone's words. It's very very very clear what was said.
Excuse me? What does an accident have to do with my opinion? My opinion on turn signal use is the same whether an accident occurs or not.

Yes, it's clear what Konerko's opinion on deking is. So what? Are you saying he's not entitled to that opinion?

Perhaps he should have remained silent, but there is certainly nothing wrong with him holding such an opinion. I'm not going to fault Konerko, or anyone for that matter, for being honest in expressing an opinion. He didn't say anything derogatory about Uribe personally. If he had, that may be over the line, but he just said that he doesn't agree with deking. Why the uproar? This is exactly the reaction the Sun-Times wants, and I'm not falling for it.

fquaye149
05-24-2005, 05:10 PM
Excuse me? What does an accident have to do with my opinion? My opinion on turn signal use is the same whether an accident occurs or not.

Yes, it's clear what Konerko's opinion on deking is. So what? Are you saying he's not entitled to that opinion?

Perhaps he should have remained silent, but there is certainly nothing wrong with him holding such an opinion. I'm not going to fault Konerko, or anyone for that matter, for being honest in expressing an opinion. He didn't say anything derogatory about Uribe personally. If he had, that may be over the line, but he just said that he doesn't agree with deking. Why the uproar? This is exactly the reaction the Sun-Times wants, and I'm not falling for it.

you're kidding me:

Paul was not speaking generally about some hypothetical situation.

They asked him about URIBE'S PLAY. He gave his opinion on URIBE'S play, saying his teammate was wrong

Why?

I have no idea - but he called out Uribe and it was bull****.

voodoochile
05-24-2005, 05:12 PM
This thread has gone completely off the deep end... I love it...:tongue:

What if it was PK running someone over?

What if it was because a policeman faked him out with a bad arm motion causing him to run that person over?

What if PK still realized in time but then his brakes failed and he still ran the person over?

What if it turns out that PK knew his brakes were going bad and failed to have them checked before running the person over?

What if the person who got run over was wearing all black and it was night and the street lamps failed?

200 replies and the battle is just heating up... We are going to need a new graphic - I suggest PK with a mouth full of gravel wagging his finger.

fquaye149
05-24-2005, 05:14 PM
look at it this way:

If Contreras plunks someone and reporters ask Paulie what he thought about Contreras beaning them and Paulie says

"beanballs are wrong. no one should ever hit another player."

he is clearly saying he thinks Contreras is wrong.

Sure it's his opinion. I don't dispute his opinion (though I disagree with it irregardless of which team/player we're talking about). However, the issue is going first to the media and saying your teammate is wrong.

Paulie is not the management. He is not the league. He is Paul Konerko, an average baseball player. He should keep his big mouth shut, especially about his teammates.

Is that clear? Or am I going to have to rehash the position of "the konerko bashers" again?

maurice
05-24-2005, 05:14 PM
I'm sorry, but the meaning of words in the English language is not a matter of opinion. No disection is required. That's why we have dictionaries. Otherwise, you could "interpret" the word "apple" to mean "chair," and claim its just your "opinion."

Elaborating on your analogy:
- Somebody tells you that Voodoo crossed the street without looking both ways but you didn't see it.
- They then ask you to respond to this conduct.
- You respond, ''You don't do that. If it's done intentionally, that's not right. I was looking the other way when Voodoo crossed the street, but you don't do that."

While it's entirely possible that you meant "I wouldn't do that but I don't think it's wrong for Voodoo to do it," it would require the outright torture of the English language to expect everybody else to "interpret" your comment in that manner. Probably 99% of English-speakers would "interpret" the comment literally and in context to mean "Voodoo was wrong to do that." If they did "interpret" it "wrong," I suspect you'd probably make a point of correcting the record ASAP. Konerko's silence is deafening.

- - -

I would have been out of this thread a long time ago, but hiding behind the term "opinion" is a pet peeve of mine. Somewhere along the line somebody got the notion that any ridiculous statement is fine as log as you just claim it was your opinion. Dusty uses this line all the time. Notably, he claimed that white players are inferior to black players in warm temperatures. When a small number of folks pointed out that this is patent racism, his defenders claimed it was just his "opinion" and that he was "entitled to his [racist] opinion." That's wrong. Ultimately this form of "reasoning" devolves into complete relativism where there is no such thing as right and wrong conduct . . . and nobody has a right to argue whether something is right or wrong. That's a horrible trend.

fquaye149
05-24-2005, 05:15 PM
I'm sorry, but the meaning of words in the English language is not a matter of opinion. No disection is required. That's why we have dictionaries. Otherwise, you could "interpret" the word "apple" to mean "chair," and claim its just your "opinion."

Elaborating on your analogy:
- Somebody tells you that Voodoo crossed the street without looking both ways but you didn't see it.
- They then ask you to respond to this conduct.
- You respond, ''You don't do that. If it's done intentionally, that's not right. I was looking the other way when Voodoo crossed the street, but you don't do that."

While it's entirely possible that you meant "I wouldn't do that but I don't think it's wrong for Voodoo to do it," it would require the outright torture of the English language to expect everybody else to "interpret" your comment in that manner. Probably 99% of English-speakers would "interpret" the comment literally and in context to mean "Voodoo was wrong to do that." If they did "interpret" it "wrong," I suspect you'd probably make a point of correcting the record ASAP. Konerko's silence is deafening.

stamped and cosigned.

is this that hard to understand?

steff
05-24-2005, 05:16 PM
So Frank Thomas is no longer with the team? Didn't Ozzie just call out several of his own players for their supposed bad attitudes last season?

I know I'm a day late on this.... but Laura.. I'm a tab bit curious.. did you bother to read the follow up to that article where Ozzie explained the comments..?

voodoochile
05-24-2005, 05:17 PM
I'm sorry, but the meaning of words in the English language is not a matter of opinion. No disection is required. That's why we have dictionaries. Otherwise, you could "interpret" the word "apple" to mean "chair," and claim its just your "opinion."

Elaborating on your analogy:
- Somebody tells you that Voodoo crossed the street without looking both ways but you didn't see it.
- They then ask you to respond to this conduct.
- You respond, ''You don't do that. If it's done intentionally, that's not right. I was looking the other way when Voodoo crossed the street, but you don't do that."

While it's entirely possible that you meant "I wouldn't do that but I don't think it's wrong for Voodoo to do it," it would require the outright torture of the English language to expect everybody else to "interpret" your comment in that manner. Probably 99% of English-speakers would "interpret" the comment literally and in context to mean "Voodoo was wrong to do that." If they did "interpret" it "wrong," I suspect you'd probably make a point of correcting the record ASAP. Konerko's silence is deafening.

Now I'm about to get run over by PK and his crappy brakeless car. That tears it... PK should be traded before I end up dead.

It's not my fault that I refuse to look both directions and am too damned deaf to hear his car coming. PK just needs to go...:tongue:

FarWestChicago
05-24-2005, 05:17 PM
LMAO!! This is fine entertainment. The Konerko Apaulogists are on a serious roll. Keep it up folks, this is very good stuff. :thumbsup:

Mickster
05-24-2005, 05:19 PM
:threadrules:

It has provided me two full days worth of entertainment! I want to send out a sincere thank you to all of the PK apologists!!!

:)

steff
05-24-2005, 05:19 PM
Holy crap.... did this thread get a bit off topic or what..?? :o:

steff
05-24-2005, 05:21 PM
:threadrules:

It has provided me two full days worth of entertainment! I want to send out a sincere thank you to all of the PK apologists!!!

:)


Get back to your diaper changing dutes.. .. :neener:

Mickster
05-24-2005, 05:22 PM
Get back to your diaper changing dutes.. .. :neener:

10 times a day and counting......

http://www.hostilespit.com/IMAGES/mrmom.jpg

Baby Fisk
05-24-2005, 05:23 PM
Part of the reason behind the Paulie obsession and people taking such violently-opposed sides is his longevity with the team. We obsess over Paulie because he's been around for so long -- he's one of 4 or 5 players left from the 2000 team.

How much spirited debate has there been about eg. Jermaine Dye's place on the Sox, or his conduct, or his tradeability, or his attitude, or something he said, or his performance on the field (psychotic Hangar threads excepted)?

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 05:25 PM
look at it this way:

If Contreras plunks someone and reporters ask Paulie what he thought about Contreras beaning them and Paulie says

"beanballs are wrong. no one should ever hit another player."

he is clearly saying he thinks Contreras is wrong.

Sure it's his opinion. I don't dispute his opinion (though I disagree with it irregardless of which team/player we're talking about). However, the issue is going first to the media and saying your teammate is wrong.

Paulie is not the management. He is not the league. He is Paul Konerko, an average baseball player. He should keep his big mouth shut, especially about his teammates.

Is that clear? Or am I going to have to rehash the position of "the konerko bashers" again?

It's all clear. One thing though, you forgot to use Teal for the word "average."

2004 PK - 41 HR's (tied for 8th in MLB) 117 RBI (10th in MLB)

Boy, I wish we had a team full of "average" players!!

voodoochile
05-24-2005, 05:26 PM
Part of the reason behind the Paulie obsession and people taking such violently-opposed sides is his longevity with the team. We obsess over Paulie because he's been around for so long -- he's one of 4 or 5 players left from the 2000 team.

How much spirited debate has there been about eg. Jermaine Dye's place on the Sox, or his conduct, or his tradeability, or his attitude, or something he said, or his performance on the field (psychotic Hangar threads excepted)?

Part of it is also about the money he makes. If PK were making JD money this season, people would be less inclined to rip him a new one.

Part of it is also PK's self-professed role as leader on the team. He wants to be the captain. He wants to be the guy teammates and fans turn to and expect good things from and then he goes and says something like this to the press. It doesn't gibe and some of the people giving it to him hardest in this thread were people who were sitting on the fence or defending him before.

Realist
05-24-2005, 05:31 PM
Thank Christ we're not nearly 20 games under .500 :cool:

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 05:32 PM
Part of it is also about the money he makes. If PK were making JD money this season, people would be less inclined to rip him a new one.

Part of it is also PK's self-professed role as leader on the team. He wants to be the captain. He wants to be the guy teammates and fans turn to and expect good things from and then he goes and says something like this to the press. It doesn't gibe and some of the people giving it to him hardest in this thread were people who were sitting on the fence or defending him before.

I have to respectfully disagree with your first comment. How much does Crede make? People rip him all the time.

I do agree with your second comment. Nobody should have said what he did, but especially someone who wants to be/claims to be a "team leader."

voodoochile
05-24-2005, 05:33 PM
I have to respectfully disagree with your first comment. How much does Crede make? People rip him all the time.

I do agree with your second comment. Nobody should have said what he did, but especially someone who wants to be/claims to be a "team leader."

Yes, but Crede isn't coming close to matching PK's CURRENT level of production, so it would be different. I'd take PK at his current level of production at under $5M/season and I think most people would.

steff
05-24-2005, 05:34 PM
Part of it is also about the money he makes. If PK were making JD money this season, people would be less inclined to rip him a new one.





I disagree... I rip any one of those fools, INCLUDING the GM.. :wink: , who open their mouths when it's not necessary.

maurice
05-24-2005, 05:35 PM
It's all clear. One thing though, you forgot to use Teal for the word "average."
2004 PK - 41 HR's (tied for 8th in MLB) 117 RBI (10th in MLB)

Wow, you're being conveniently selective! How about AVE, OBP, SLG, and OPS? How about his 2003 and 2005 numbers? Here are some 2005 numbers from a post yestarday:
.348 OBP (77th)
.468 SLG (65th)
.815 OPS (66th)
4 2B (229th)


Sure he's struggling, but those numbers actually aren't far off of his career averages.

LauraJ14
05-24-2005, 05:37 PM
I know I'm a day late on this.... but Laura.. I'm a tab bit curious.. did you bother to read the follow up to that article where Ozzie explained the comments..?


Yes, I did and isn't that when he mentioned the players from last year, Crede, Konerko, Garland, Buherle etc. with the bad attitudes? It just sounded like he was trying to deflect the attention off the Frank remarks to the rest of the team.

steff
05-24-2005, 05:39 PM
Yes, I did and isn't that when he mentioned the players from last year, Crede, Konerko, Garland, Buherle etc. with the bad attitudes?


Maybe read it again.. that's not quite what he did.

Baby Fisk
05-24-2005, 05:40 PM
Thank Christ we're not nearly 20 games under .500 :cool:

Jeez, this place would be a war zone. :o:

voodoochile
05-24-2005, 05:43 PM
Jeez, this place would be a war zone. :o:

Actually, no... it would be a ghost town...

Baby Fisk
05-24-2005, 05:43 PM
Part of it is also PK's self-professed role as leader on the team. He wants to be the captain. He wants to be the guy teammates and fans turn to
Interestingly, when the question was put to WSI, only 2 of 24 posters picked him.

linky (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=50648&page=1&pp=15)

fquaye149
05-24-2005, 05:51 PM
It's all clear. One thing though, you forgot to use Teal for the word "average."

2004 PK - 41 HR's (tied for 8th in MLB) 117 RBI (10th in MLB)

Boy, I wish we had a team full of "average" players!!

then our team average (forgive the pun) would be .230

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 06:02 PM
then our team average (forgive the pun) would be .230

Yep. Furthermore Konerko's RBI's would be the worst of any clean up hitter in the league (nobody on base to drive in) and pitchers would either pitch around him or pitch him low hoping to induce yet another of his legendary GIDP's. Either way he doesn't hit 40 dingers.

But don't worry about the Sox anemic offense because pitching and defense wins championships and nobody turns the 3-6-3 like our guy Pauleeeee.

:wink:

Joel Perez
05-24-2005, 06:45 PM
Okay, I'm late to the party.


I thought the name of the game is to win.
I thought the Sox v Cubs thingy is a RIVALRY, not a local Chicago "Kumbaya".
Since when did your opponent is supposed to help you out, Derek? Especially when there is two outs!!! RUN FOREST, RUN!!!!!
Paulie.....until you get to .280 and start smacking the ball, SHUT UP AND PLAY! THIS IS WHITE SOX COUNTRY, AND WE TAKE NO PRISONERS, MOST OF ALL CUB PLAYERS!!!:angry:

I wonder if a Cub player would do the same to a Sox runner on 1st. Probably not.

NorthlakeTom
05-24-2005, 06:48 PM
then our team average (forgive the pun) would be .230

But we'd have 369 HR. Less base runners, but more would score.

C'mon. Konerko has hit .230 for an entire season only once. His other years have been very good. We will see whether this is a repeat of '03, but guess who's the hottest hitter over the last seven games? Guess who has a seven game hitting streak?

fquaye149
05-24-2005, 06:48 PM
Yep. Furthermore Konerko's RBI's would be the worst of any clean up hitter in the league (nobody on base to drive in) and pitchers would either pitch around him or pitch him low hoping to induce yet another of his legendary GIDP's. Either way he doesn't hit 40 dingers.

But don't worry about the Sox anemic offense because pitching and defense wins championships and nobody turns the 3-6-3 like our guy Pauleeeee.

:wink:

The pitching equivalent of Konerko might be Kerry Wood with his astronomical K's number (the HR of pitching) but also sky high walks numbers (the GIDP of pitching?)

That's pretty harsh. I don't really mean that.

fquaye149
05-24-2005, 06:51 PM
But we'd have 369 HR. Less base runners, but more would score.

C'mon. Konerko has hit .230 for an entire season only once. His other years have been very good. We will see whether this is a repeat of '03, but guess who's the hottest hitter over the last seven games? Guess who has a seven game hitting streak?

ugh. i'd rather have a batter that's not hot/cold. That's why I never bemoan the loss of Cameron for Konerko.

Look: Konerko's a fine player. I hardly think he's an allstar, but he's a solid power hitter and I wasn't among the people clamoring for a trade in the offseason (though he is overpaid I think). HOWEVER - he needs to keep his fat trap shut. Until he's the best player on his team he has no business criticizing his teammates. They could just as easily yap at him for striking out so much or GIDPing. Not that they would be in the right.

Is the media paying him 8 million? Is the media going to help him to a central championship/pennant/world series?

argh.

NorthlakeTom
05-24-2005, 06:55 PM
What's the defensive norm for firstbasemen? Anyone know?

Konerko has a career .994 FP. I don't know, but that seems pretty good to me. In comparison, Darin Erstad, a Gold Glove firstbaseman, has a .995 career FP.

Range and speed are certainly to be considered, but these stats indicate a solid glove from Konerko.

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 06:56 PM
Wow, you're being conveniently selective! How about AVE, OBP, SLG, and OPS? How about his 2003 and 2005 numbers? Here are some 2005 numbers from a post yestarday:
.348 OBP (77th)
.468 SLG (65th)
.815 OPS (66th)
4 2B (229th)


Sure he's struggling, but those numbers actually aren't far off of his career averages.

In 6 full seasons with the Sox, PK's average season has been 27 HR's, 94 RBI, with a .283 BA. At this point, it becomes a matter of opinion, but those numbers to me represent more than just an "average" player.

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 06:59 PM
Interestingly, when the question was put to WSI, only 2 of 24 posters picked him.

linky (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=50648&page=1&pp=15)

Which futher disproves PHG's false notion that "so many" in this thread are defending PK.

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 07:01 PM
Okay, I'm late to the party.


I thought the name of the game is to win.
I thought the Sox v Cubs thingy is a RIVALRY, not a local Chicago "Kumbaya".
Since when did your opponent is supposed to help you out, Derek? Especially when there is two outs!!! RUN FOREST, RUN!!!!!
Paulie.....until you get to .280 and start smacking the ball, SHUT UP AND PLAY! THIS IS WHITE SOX COUNTRY, AND WE TAKE NO PRISONERS, MOST OF ALL CUB PLAYERS!!!:angry:
I wonder if a Cub player would do the same to a Sox runner on 1st. Probably not.

Great, except for one thing. When he does get to .280 you'll have something else about PK to complain about.