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fincher
05-22-2005, 11:35 PM
From today's Sun-Times:
http://www.suntimes.com/output/deluca/cst-spt-deluca22.htm

Trading Thomas might be a good idea.

seanpmurphy
05-22-2005, 11:42 PM
Yeah but for who? Who on the Angels, the only team that dude cared to mention, would we want? Guerrero! But I've got a better chance jumping into a lion's den and coming out alive. I really see no one else on that line-up we would need/want.

DaleJRFan
05-22-2005, 11:45 PM
Frank is a 5/10 player. The odds of him taking a trade somewhere he cannot win, Tampa Bay, perhaps is highly unlikely.

I don't like the idea of trading him. We need him back.

Bisco Stu
05-22-2005, 11:45 PM
I don't think so. Thomas returning is like getting a HOF'er in a free trade, and we need his bat as much as the Angels do.

And FRANKly, since the 05 Sox have a legit shot at winning it all (teams that start 31-13 often do), Frank should have the chance at that for all he's done.

If he's not part of the 06 team, so be it, but why give up his bat (again, which is needed) and a chance to give him at shot at winning it all just to "get something for him"?

balke
05-22-2005, 11:50 PM
Everett is like our worst batter right now. He swings at anything, and misses everything. Its just a funk, but Frank doesn't funk much.

Why would you trade a bat... when what your team needs is.... A BAT!?

Now with Dye catching up to fastballs finally, someone very talented will be on the bench. Either him or Everett. And Everett is a clutch switch hitter.

Anyways, we keep Frank, and go win a championship. All the tools are at our fingertips. I'd like Wagner to compliment Hermanson, but may not happen. We have a lot of pitching on this team, and all the means to win. After the recent offensive surge, we've jumped way up in AL rankings for offense. We're going to be fine. I can't wait to have Frank back. I want to win him a championship for everything he's done for our franchise. If that happens, we might even have the money to keep him around.

soltrain21
05-22-2005, 11:50 PM
Frank needs to be a part of this team. The man has signified the Chicago White Sox for the past 15 years. Strong, determined, and won't take crap from anyone. One of the last true heroes of the game. Frank remains a part of the Sox until the day he dies.

seanpmurphy
05-22-2005, 11:51 PM
I don't think so. Thomas returning is like getting a HOF'er in a free trade, and we need his bat as much as the Angels do.

And FRANKly, since the 05 Sox have a legit shot at winning it all (teams that start 31-13 often do), Frank should have the chance at that for all he's done.

If he's not part of the 06 team, so be it, but why give up his bat (again, which is needed) and a chance to give him at shot at winning it all just to "get something for him"?

I agree. He might be old by sports standards, but I think he's still got plenty of fight left in him considering he's just a DH and not a position player anymore. Frank has been a huge part of this team, and cross your fingers, if this year is seriously as for real as it seems, he's probably the one who deserves it most.

Can't wait to have him back in the lineup. Does anyone know when exactly he might be back?

Podzilla_40
05-22-2005, 11:52 PM
There is no trade value for Frank right now. De Luca is out of his mind if he thinks an MLB GM is going to jump at the chance to trade for him just because he had 1-2 good nights on a rehab stint.

DaleJRFan
05-22-2005, 11:57 PM
Frank needs to be a part of this team. The man has signified the Chicago White Sox for the past 15 years. Strong, determined, and won't take crap from anyone. One of the last true heroes of the game. Frank remains a part of the Sox until the day he dies.

good call soltrain.

Jjav829
05-23-2005, 12:00 AM
It's an interesting thought, but not something I would do. Yeah, the team has played great without him. But it's not like this team has been great offensively. There's still a lot of room for improvement and Frank can provide that improvement. After all, Everett hasn't been that good.

It's a different story if some team comes asking for him. Like Podzilla said though, Frank's trade value isn't exactly high right now. Frank is also going to be extremely motivated for many reasons, one of the main reasons being that he's very likely to be a free agent at the end of the year. I guess there's a point to be made that this could be a negative as Frank may be more interested in putting up his numbers so he can get paid. Still, I still think we're better off keeping him around, even if it means paying the $3.5 million buyout at the end of the year.

Flight #24
05-23-2005, 12:08 AM
Because unfortunately, I read this tripe, here's a short recap.

- Sox are winning, best team in baseball
- Thomas is still a great hitter
- They'll let him go at the end of the season (no mention of what they'll do at DH or how that would be a cheaper alternative or come close performance-wise)
- Might as well get some value for him now

What impeccable logic. A team whose weakest area is their O should trade their best hitter because they've been able to run up a great record without him.

:kukoo:

Flight #24
05-23-2005, 12:11 AM
Still, I still think we're better off keeping him around, even if it means paying the $3.5 million buyout at the end of the year.

All I can say is that I hope (and I believe) that KW understands that the AL isn't eliminating the DH in 2006. So he'll need to play one. I love all these articles that talk about how the Sox will let Frank go to "save the $10 mil". Forget that it's really $6.5mil and that even Carl Everett will make $5 if they keep him.

Carl Everett + $1.5mil......or Frank Thomas?

Kenny's a lot smarter than the mediots, unless Frank causes problems or just plain sucks, he'll be back.

balke
05-23-2005, 12:17 AM
Because unfortunately, I read this tripe, here's a short recap.

- Sox are winning, best team in baseball
- Thomas is still a great hitter
- They'll let him go at the end of the season (no mention of what they'll do at DH or how that would be a cheaper alternative or come close performance-wise)
- Might as well get some value for him now

What impeccable logic. A team whose weakest area is their O should trade their best hitter because they've been able to run up a great record without him.

:kukoo:

Then I can come to this board after every game and hear about "X" slumping, and he's the worst player on the planet. "We need another bat, where's Carlos Lee? :whiner:"

Frank can't play in any national league park whatsoever. The Yankees already have 9 DH's on their team, and aren't in the market. The BoSox have Ortiz. For all the huff lovers, his #'s suck, and I'm wondering if Frank has a no-trade clause to prevent him from going to those horrible teams (I'd imagine so). So MAYBE you could trade him to someone like the Angels... then see Frank in the playoffs. Yeah right.

Here's your bat. He's on your team already. He's Frank Thomas, and he's going to help you win. Its hard to be a cancer, when all you do is DH, and hit 2B and HR. Why on earth would we trade for the future, when the future is right now?

Jjav829
05-23-2005, 12:22 AM
All I can say is that I hope (and I believe) that KW understands that the AL isn't eliminating the DH in 2006. So he'll need to play one. I love all these articles that talk about how the Sox will let Frank go to "save the $10 mil". Forget that it's really $6.5mil and that even Carl Everett will make $5 if they keep him.

Carl Everett + $1.5mil......or Frank Thomas?

Kenny's a lot smarter than the mediots, unless Frank causes problems or just plain sucks, he'll be back.

But it's not as simple as Everett or Frank. Keep in mind Jermaine Dye is under contract for next year. Aaron Rowand and Scott Podsednik will likely be part of this team, barring an unforeseen trade. It just so happens that one of our top prospects is an OF. So the decision could be made - and I would guess KW is leaning this way - to move Dye to DH and give Anderson a starting job. Then take that money saved from not paying Frank and use it to lock up Konerko long term or perhaps find an upgrade at 3B or SS (possibly moving Uribe to 3B). Of course, this is dependent on Dye continuing to hit like he is in May rather than how he hit in April. There are other ways that situation can be handled. I don't honestly think the Sox want to pay Frank $10 million for a year, and I have yet to find anyone that would be in the know of this type of situation that doesn't agree with that. Now if Frank comes back and plays great, that could change. But we're talking about a 37-year-old coming off a major injury. 37-year-olds tend to have a decline in production unless they are named Barry Bonds and getting some extra help.

Chisox003
05-23-2005, 12:23 AM
I cant believe I read that, and the scrolled down to see people agreeing with it!

Frank Thomas isn't a part of the White Sox...He IS the White Sox!

Circle June 13th on your calanders....One of the best hitters ever is coming back en route to a ring :gulp:

MisterB
05-23-2005, 12:27 AM
My favorite part:

Here is a fact: Thomas, who turns 37 on Friday, is playing in his final season for the Sox. After this season, the Sox can buy out Thomas' contract for $3.5 million. That would get them out of spending $10 million for Thomas' services in 2006.

No, that isn't fact, it's 100% pure speculation on the part of Chris De Luca. *****. :angry:

lowesox
05-23-2005, 12:32 AM
Love him or hate him, I think any real White Sox fan would say they'd like to see Frank Thomas play his entire career here.

Epark84
05-23-2005, 01:59 AM
From today's Sun-Times:
http://www.suntimes.com/output/deluca/cst-spt-deluca22.htm

Trading Thomas might be a good idea.

I love frank thomas and he is one of the best white sox ever, but to be honest I dont think a whole lot could be gotten for a declining DH. Plus if he is healthy he can help this team. IF he is healthy

Nellie_Fox
05-23-2005, 02:45 AM
Love him or hate him, I think any real White Sox fan would say they'd like to see Frank Thomas play his entire career here.Frank should retire in a White Sox uniform. Period.

JRIG
05-23-2005, 07:09 AM
Wait.

Someone in the media thinks the White Sox would be better off without the greatest player in franchise history and one of the top 10 hitters in all of baseball?

:kukoo:

If the Sox had a dime for every time media experts DeLuca and Rogers suggested the Sox should dump the base-clogging, bad in the clubhouse, malcontent Frank Thomas, the team could pay his salary for next year.

These are probably the same writers who ripped the Sox for dumping Carlton Fisk in the middlle of the playoff run in 1993, even though (much as I love Fisk), he was pretty much done at the time.

Now the team is 31-13, in first place, playing outstanding baseball, with pitching that can't be beat. But, what the team really needs is a hitter with power who can get on base and take some of the pressure off Paul ".215" Konerko and Jermaine ".217" Dye.

So the answer is to trade Frank Thomas.

:rolling:

Dan H
05-23-2005, 07:21 AM
Frank Thomas is like any other player. He can be traded. And though I am sure he can still hit, I am also sure that he is not the same player who won back to back MVPs.

That doens't mean I would trade him. I don't know what the Sox would get, and suggesting trades is an easy thing to do, much easier than it is to pull off. Also trading him to the Angels, a team you may face in the playoffs is not necessarily a great idea.

But keeping Thomas this year doesn't mean he will be with the Sox next year. Regardless, the decision to keep Thomas or trade must be made in the best interests of the team, not merely to keep Thomas in Chicago his whole career.

fincher
05-23-2005, 08:20 AM
I like Frank a lot but if the Sox get good value for him, then he should be dealt. All this stuff about how he's been part of the team for 15 years, etc. is admirable but there is a lot of bad in it, too.

I miss the first part of The Big Hurt's career. Few strikeouts, tons of walks and hit with finesse and power to all fields. He had it all and was on the Cooperstown Express. He's not the same player and is injury-prone.

At the very least, the Sox should consider all options. That's all.

A. Cavatica
05-23-2005, 08:34 AM
I could see it happening if the Sox weren't winning, but deal Frank away from a team that appears to have real World Series possibilities? No chance. The Sox won't make moves based on next year's payroll as long as they're tearing it up this year.

IMHO it was a more realistic possibility that we'd trade Konerko for Todd Helton, and that was a wild-ass pipe dream. But PK appears to have broken out of his slump and that guarantees he'll be here for the rest of this season. Dye, too.

ChicagoHoosier
05-23-2005, 08:41 AM
I cant believe I read that, and the scrolled down to see people agreeing with it!

Frank Thomas isn't a part of the White Sox...He IS the White Sox!

Circle June 13th on your calanders....One of the best hitters ever is coming back en route to a ring :gulp:
I already have my tickets for that ballgame, plan on getting there early after a tailgate, and hope to watch Frank back in Chicago and see him here playing WELL all year long!

Here's to Frank returning and a big year to contribute to an already solid team. :gulp:

RKMeibalane
05-23-2005, 09:28 AM
If the Sox were struggling right now, I would be willing to trade Frank to the Angels, but only if the Sox were assured of getting Casey Kotchman in return. Kotchman is arguably Anaheim/Los Angeles' most valuable prospect. Scouts have compared him to Will Clark and Rafael Palmeiro.

However, the fact remains that the Sox have the best record in baseball, and so there is no reason to trade Frank right now. He is still this team's best hitter, and will be a huge boost to the lineup when he returns. What happens in 2006 doesn't matter right now. This is 2005. Frank may be back here next season, or he may not. I don't really care, because there's still a lot of baseball left to played this year.

Frater Perdurabo
05-23-2005, 09:30 AM
Regardless, the decision to keep Thomas or trade must be made in the best interests of the team, not merely to keep Thomas in Chicago his whole career.

Although I am a huge Frank fan, I agree with Dan's statement above.

IT IS IN THE WHITE SOX BEST INTERESTS TO PICK UP FRANK'S 2006 OPTION!

If money is an issue, let Konerko leave as a free agent and keep Frank. If they let Konerko leave, they have $8 million to spread around or to find a stop-gap 1B and let Frank DH full-time (IIRC Frank only has gotten injured while playing the field). Think I'm crazy? Compare their respective HR totals, AVG, OBP, SLG and OPS from 1999 to 2004:

99 Frank: 15, .305, .414, .471, .885
99 Paulie: 24, .294, .352, .511, .863

00 Frank: 43, .328, .436, .625, 1.061
00 Paulie: 31, .298, .363, .481, .844

01 Frank: 4, .221, .316, .441, .757 (in only 20 games!)
01 Paulie: 32, .282, .319, .507, .856

02 Frank: 28, .252, .361, .472, .833
02 Paulie: 27, .304, .359, .498, .857

03 Frank: 42, .267, .390, .562, .952
03 Paulie: 18, .234, .305, .399, .704

04 Frank: 18, .271, .434, .563, .997 (in 74 games)
04 Paulie: 41, .277, .359, .535, .894

Now look at their HR totals, AVG, OBP, SLG and OPS production over the past three seasons:

Frank: 88, .262, .387, .526, .913 (1309 AB)
Paulie: 86, .275, .344, .483, .827 (1577 AB)

Frank has more home runs in 268 fewer at bats! His OBP is +.43, his SLG is +.43 and his OPS is +.86.

Who's a better cleanup hitter? :kukoo:

This November, if Kenny Williams can keep only one of the two, Frank or Paulie, who should he keep?
:kukoo:

Barring an unforseen career-threatening injury to Frank after he returns in a few weeks, if the Sox don't pick up Frank Thomas' 2006 option and instead elect to keep (and likely overpay) Konerko, KW is much more stupid than any of us can imagine.

Hokiesox
05-23-2005, 09:38 AM
Frank should retire in a White Sox uniform. Period.

Seconded.

DarkCloudDropo
05-23-2005, 09:45 AM
Although I am a huge Frank fan, I agree with Dan's statement above.

IT IS IN THE WHITE SOX BEST INTERESTS TO PICK UP FRANK'S 2006 OPTION!

If money is an issue, let Konerko leave as a free agent and keep Frank. If they let Konerko leave, they have $8 million to spread around or to find a stop-gap 1B and let Frank DH full-time (IIRC Frank only has gotten injured while playing the field). Think I'm crazy? Compare their respective HR totals, AVG, OBP, SLG and OPS from 1999 to 2004:

99 Frank: 15, .305, .414, .471, .885
99 Paulie: 24, .294, .352, .511, .863

00 Frank: 43, .328, .436, .625, 1.061
00 Paulie: 31, .298, .363, .481, .844

01 Frank: 4, .221, .316, .441, .757 (in only 20 games!)
01 Paulie: 32, .282, .319, .507, .856

02 Frank: 28, .252, .361, .472, .833
02 Paulie: 27, .304, .359, .498, .857

03 Frank: 42, .267, .390, .562, .952
03 Paulie: 18, .234, .305, .399, .704

04 Frank: 18, .271, .434, .563, .997 (in 74 games)
04 Paulie: 41, .277, .359, .535, .894

Now look at their HR totals, AVG, OBP, SLG and OPS production over the past three seasons:

Frank: 88, .262, .387, .526, .913 (1309 AB)
Paulie: 86, .275, .344, .483, .827 (1577 AB)

Frank has more home runs in 268 fewer at bats! His OBP is +.43, his SLG is +.43 and his OPS is +.86.

Who's a better cleanup hitter? :kukoo:

This November, if Kenny Williams can keep only one of the two, Frank or Paulie, who should he keep?
:kukoo:

Barring an unforseen career-threatening injury to Frank after he returns in a few weeks, if the Sox don't pick up Frank Thomas' 2006 option and instead elect to keep (and likely overpay) Konerko, KW is much more stupid than any of us can imagine.


Paul is 29 and Frank is 36 (and hasn't put a total year together in 3 of the last 5 years). If your concern is about the future then the one you keep is Paul.

Frater Perdurabo
05-23-2005, 10:14 AM
Paul is 29 and Frank is 36 (and hasn't put a total year together in 3 of the last 5 years). If your concern is about the future then the one you keep is Paul.

He "hasn't put a total year together in 3 of the last 5 years" because he got injured playing the field! Although two years ago I wanted Thomas at 1B, I'm calling for him to be the full-time DH! But why did Jerry Manuel and Ozzie Guillen put Frank in the field? BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO GET FRANK'S BAT INTO THE LINEUP. They were willing to remove Konerko from the lineup in games at NL parks because they recognized Frank was (and remains) the better hitter!

Last year, when Paul was 28 (and had a career year!) and Frank 35, Frank had a superior OBP, SLG and OPS. IIRC, Frank had the third-best OPS in the entire league before he went down last year. Healthy Paulie has only put together one complete full season in his six years with the team!

My first concern is about 2005. Trading Frank now will deprive the Sox of a good bat this year. My next concern is about 2006. To keeep Konerko in 2006, they likely will have to offer him a 3-year deal at a minumum. That means the Sox would have him clogging up the basepaths, sucking up the payroll, and putting a hole in the middle of the order for long stretches until 2009 at the earliest! All they have to do with Frank is pick up his 2006 option! Considering Konerko's maddening tendency to run hot and cold, keeping Frank is a lower-risk proposition for the future as well! Frank is more consistent than Paulie, and at his "average" is better than Paulie at his best!

Flight #24
05-23-2005, 10:32 AM
Another interesting note: With Frank hitting in front of him in 2004, Konerko was at .296 / .384 / .567. After Frank goes down - .258 / .333 / .502.

It's not a great sample size, but further indication that Paulie is more of a good complementary player than a core player, i.e. put him behind a great hitter and he'll be pretty good. Put him behind a lesser hitter and he's slightly better than average. I certainly don't let Frank go to keep Konerko, much better to keep Frank and go get a Koney replacement. Nothing against Konerko, he's a good player. But he's not a cornerstone guy, and I certainly don't pay him $8-10mil.

Frater Perdurabo
05-23-2005, 10:34 AM
Another interesting note: With Frank hitting in front of him in 2004, Konerko was at .296 / .384 / .567. After Frank goes down - .258 / .333 / .502.

It's not a great sample size, but further indication that Paulie is more of a good complementary player than a core player, i.e. put him behind a great hitter and he'll be pretty good. Put him behind a lesser hitter and he's slightly better than average. I certainly don't let Frank go to keep Konerko, much better to keep Frank and go get a Koney replacement. Nothing against Konerko, he's a good player. But he's not a cornerstone guy, and I certainly don't pay him $8-10mil.

You've succinctly summed up my argument. :cool:

DarkCloudDropo
05-23-2005, 11:00 AM
He "hasn't put a total year together in 3 of the last 5 years" because he got injured playing the field! Although two years ago I wanted Thomas at 1B, I'm calling for him to be the full-time DH! But why did Jerry Manuel and Ozzie Guillen put Frank in the field? BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO GET FRANK'S BAT INTO THE LINEUP. They were willing to remove Konerko from the lineup in games at NL parks because they recognized Frank was (and remains) the better hitter!

Last year, when Paul was 28 (and had a career year!) and Frank 35, Frank had a superior OBP, SLG and OPS. IIRC, Frank had the third-best OPS in the entire league before he went down last year. Healthy Paulie has only put together one complete full season in his six years with the team!

My first concern is about 2005. Trading Frank now will deprive the Sox of a good bat this year. My next concern is about 2006. To keeep Konerko in 2006, they likely will have to offer him a 3-year deal at a minumum. That means the Sox would have him clogging up the basepaths, sucking up the payroll, and putting a hole in the middle of the order for long stretches until 2009 at the earliest! All they have to do with Frank is pick up his 2006 option! Considering Konerko's maddening tendency to run hot and cold, keeping Frank is a lower-risk proposition for the future as well! Frank is more consistent than Paulie, and at his "average" is better than Paulie at his best!

I was replying to your question "This November, if Kenny Williams can keep only one of the two, Frank or Paulie, who should he keep? "

I am not suggesting Paul is the hitter that Frank is. I am suggesting that 3 of the past 5 years (counting this year) Frank has not been able to put a whole season together. Notwithstanding your argument that Paul has only put one season together in 6 years, he has in fact played full seasons for all 6 of those years (going on 7) and put up excellent numbers in 5 of the 6.

My whole point is that Frank is at/near the end of his illustrious career, whereas Paul is in his prime. Rather than hope Frank will last a few more years I would still take Paul.

Iguana775
05-23-2005, 11:06 AM
If the Sox do in fact make it far in the playoffs and Frank is not a part of it, i will be extremely pissed off. It would be a PR nightmare for the Sox and i would hope that KW isnt that stupid.

balke
05-23-2005, 11:13 AM
I guarantee, regardless of what he does for us... if Frank were an Angel in the playoffs this year, with Vlad, Anderson, and all the solid hitters through that lineup... it would come back to bite us.

fincher
05-23-2005, 12:17 PM
It doesn't have to be the Angels and still say its worth the effort to seek opportunities for Thomas.

mweflen
05-23-2005, 12:20 PM
I say trade Everett for a young arm and keep Thomas. Renew his option for next year, too. Money "problem" solved. Not that I'm down on Carl, but he is streaky as mentioned previously, and Frank is a franchise fixture with better AVE, OBP, SLG, BB, and anything else you'd like to measure.

Frater Perdurabo
05-23-2005, 12:24 PM
I was replying to your question "This November, if Kenny Williams can keep only one of the two, Frank or Paulie, who should he keep? "

I am not suggesting Paul is the hitter that Frank is. I am suggesting that 3 of the past 5 years (counting this year) Frank has not been able to put a whole season together. Notwithstanding your argument that Paul has only put one season together in 6 years, he has in fact played full seasons for all 6 of those years (going on 7) and put up excellent numbers in 5 of the 6.

My whole point is that Frank is at/near the end of his illustrious career, whereas Paul is in his prime. Rather than hope Frank will last a few more years I would still take Paul.

I understand your point. I just don't agree with it.

I vehemently disagree with your characterization of "5 of 6" seasons when Paulie put up "excellent" numbers. Look at the facts. Paulie never produced a .900 OPS. His 162-game average is an .827 OPS. Frank generated a .997 OPS in 2004 and a .952 in 2003. Last year, Frank's OPS was 103 points better than Paulie's, which was Paulie's best season!

Both times Frank was injured playing the field. He's much less likely to get injured as a DH. Given his improved physical conditioning and his dedication to the team, I predict if he sticks to DH-ing, he'll continue to produce similar numbers through at least 2008.

Also, signing Paulie long-term to more than $6M/year flies in the face of what has gotten the Sox off to their successful start. That ties up too much money in one player who is maddeningly hot and cold and even at his best is not nearly as good as Frank (as you admit). If the Sox plan to pay one non-pitcher $8-10M per year, pay your best hitter to DH and bat cleanup.

If they can keep both, great. If they can keep both with Paulie taking a pay cut, even better. If they absolutely can only keep one, dollar for dollar Frank is the obvious choice for 2006-08. Not only that, they probably could keep Frank through 2008 at a lower salary than what Konerko will command on the free agent market!

Are you prepared to get into a bidding war for who is the "tallest midget" among an admittedly weak crop of free agent first baseman? Furthermore, are you prepared to pay an additional $3.5 million (Frank's buyout) for the privilege of overpaying for Konerko for the next 3-5 years?

Jjav829
05-23-2005, 12:33 PM
We've been through this before, and I know this topic will come up again, but I stand my opinion that nothing can really be decided until after the season. We need to see what Frank looks like over the rest of the season. Frank will turn 37 in 4 days. Like I said previously, whether people want to believe it or not, there is a fairly good chance that Frank's production will continue to decline. This is only natural among players as they get older. He'll already be 37 this year. By the time the Sox have to make the decision on the buyout, we'll be talking about a player who will be playing most of next season at the age of 38. The odds are against Frank being a dominant force at the age of 38. Can he overcome those odds? Maybe. But we can't really judge the likelihood of him being a force at the age of 38 until we see how much of a force he is coming off a major injury at the age of 37.

One thing I for know sure, I'm tired of the "Frank should finish his career as a White Sox" line of thought. What are we, Cubs fans? For years we made fun of Cubs fans going out to Wrigley just to see one player and talked about how we Sox fans go to watch baseball. So which is it? Do we care about the team more, or do we care about Frank being a White Sox more? I know my answer. If you think that the team is better off with Frank than without him, fine, then make that argument. But don't say that Frank should stay here just because he's always been here. That's an awful argument because you're implying that we should ignore what's best for the team just to keep one player.

Frankly, I'm a White Sox fan and I'll be a White Sox fan long after Frank is gone. I want the best for the White Sox, regardless of which players that means leaving the team.

fincher
05-23-2005, 12:44 PM
If you think that the team is better off with Frank than without him, fine, then make that argument. But don't say that Frank should stay here just because he's always been here. That's an awful argument because you're implying that we should ignore what's best for the team just to keep one player.

Well written. I agree!!!!!

balke
05-23-2005, 01:04 PM
One thing I for know sure, I'm tired of the "Frank should finish his career as a White Sox" line of thought. What are we, Cubs fans? For years we made fun of Cubs fans going out to Wrigley just to see one player and talked about how we Sox fans go to watch baseball. So which is it? Do we care about the team more, or do we care about Frank being a White Sox more? I know my answer. If you think that the team is better off with Frank than without him, fine, then make that argument. But don't say that Frank should stay here just because he's always been here. That's an awful argument because you're implying that we should ignore what's best for the team just to keep one player.

Frankly, I'm a White Sox fan and I'll be a White Sox fan long after Frank is gone. I want the best for the White Sox, regardless of which players that means leaving the team.

I don't know what being a Cub fan has to do with Frank Thomas, that's an irrational scare tactic.

I for one agree with keeping Frank because he's still going to be HANDS DOWN THE BEST HITTER ON THE WHITE SOX when he comes back. What that says to me is, keeping him would be best for the White Sox. Adding to that, when the best hitter on your team has played under a diminished skills clause, and has helped you stay above .500 while drawing many fans to the park specifically to watch you for 15 years, you have to give that player some added respect.

I find it classless to dump your best player, unless he has a ridiculous demand. Frank has to be aware of his value to MLB. That value being, none whatsoever in the NL, and none whatsoever to other contenders in the AL. At season's end, he will probably have the choice of the Sox for less money, or go to a nowhere team where he is a sideshow for more money, and I'd expect him to stay here. It would benefit both us and him to have him not only finish his career here, but to hit for a full healthy season here. He's a DH, which means all he has to do is hit. He's not Bernie Williams clogging up the outfield.

Keep Frank, nothin we could get right now is worth him unless it is a young lights out dominating closer.... who even then could turn into Billy Koch. I'm sure any team that wants Frank, won't be in the position to give us a bat in return that is anywhere comparable.

Wanting to keep Frank doesn't make you a Cub fan, it just makes sense.

Lip Man 1
05-23-2005, 01:04 PM
Flight:

As someone who has followed this team for 45 years the only advice I can give you is not to be shocked at anything that happens.

Take it for what it may be worth to you.

Lip

Jjav829
05-23-2005, 01:38 PM
I don't know what being a Cub fan has to do with Frank Thomas, that's an irrational scare tactic.

Wanting to keep Frank doesn't make you a Cub fan, it just makes sense.


It's not irrational, rather it is the same thing that we've ripped Cubs fans for in previous years. How many times have you heard a Sox fan rip a Cub fan for staying just to see Sham-ME bat, or going to a game just to see Sham-ME, or being happy just because Sham-ME homered? These were all meant to show how Cubs fans only care about Sham-ME rather than winning baseball. Then we get comments about how Frank should finish his career with the Sox or retire in a White Sox uniform or how he needs to be part of the team. These all go against the very basic concept that we've prided ourselves on for years; winning baseball games. As I said before, if you believe that Frank being on this team makes the team better, then say that. But if your only reason for wanting Frank to stay is because you want to see him retire as a White Sox, then you need to re-evaluate your priorities.

I would liken this to a much smaller scale version of the Jordan situation. When Jordan retired, we saw a lot of so-called "Bulls fans" stop caring. Why? Because they weren't Bulls fans at all. They were Jordan fans. They followed the team for years because Jordan was on the team and they claimed they were Bulls fans. Then Jordan left and many "Bulls fans" left with him. A few years later they reappeared as Wizards fans. Meanwhile, true Bulls fans kept following the team. I'm not even talking about 5 years after Jordan left when the team sucked. I'm talking about in the immediate year or two after Jordan left when the team was rebuilding and true Bulls fans thought the team would be competitive soon. Obviously the Frank situation is not the same as Jordan as Jordan is on another planet from Frank. Their abilities and their impacts are not even close, but the comparison is relevant for my point.

If you're going to claim that true fans care about winning, then focus on what is best for the team. At this point, we have no idea what's best for the team. If Frank comes back and hits .280 with a .420 OBP and hits 25-30 HR over the remaining four months, then keeping Frank is going to be the best option. But if he comes back and hits .250 with a .360 OBP and a lack of power, then getting rid of Frank might be the best move. It's too early to judge that. One thing I know for sure is that when it comes time for the decision to be made, the decision should be made solely based on Frank's production and what will be best for the team. Anything other than that will simply be going against the winning attitude that we pride ourselves on striving for.

balke
05-23-2005, 02:03 PM
If you're going to claim that true fans care about winning, then focus on what is best for the team. At this point, we have no idea what's best for the team. If Frank comes back and hits .280 with a .420 OBP and hits 25-30 HR over the remaining four months, then keeping Frank is going to be the best option. But if he comes back and hits .250 with a .360 OBP and a lack of power, then getting rid of Frank might be the best move. It's too early to judge that. One thing I know for sure is that when it comes time for the decision to be made, the decision should be made solely based on Frank's production and what will be best for the team. Anything other than that will simply be going against the winning attitude that we pride ourselves on striving for.


Comparing the Sosa situation to Thomas is about as close as the Jordan Situation to Thomas, as in they are both too different to compare. The Cubs should've traded Sosa when he lost his bat speed, they knew he was juicing, and they could've gotten the moon and stars for him. Frank doesn't juice, he was the best hitter we've seen in a long time before his injury, and he's really not worth squat to anyone but us or other AL teams that want to beat us.

I believe there was also a time when people thought the Bulls should trade Jordan to the Sonics to stay long term contenders... I don't even wanna get into that.

Having respect for one of (if not) the greatest players your franchise has ever seen is only natural. Occasionally it turns out you should've traded the guy, but not always. In fact, I'd say rarely. Especially rarely when you are talking hall of fame calibur players that you trade away. I can't think of a trade where a hall-of-famer was traded for a pair of hall-of-famers, or a better hall-of-famer. I'm sure this list can be counted on one hand.

I'm all about winning. I share both notions that Frank should be kept because he's been here so long, and because he'll help us win. If he were more of an old Harold Baines, bat isn't making up for lack of speed type... I'd share the sentiment. I just can't wait to see our monster non-juicer come back and crush some 1st inning fastballs. Frank would really have to struggle when he comes back to be worth trading, which sounds opposite of what you should say, but its not. He can really help us win, he always has. I can think of many games where the team gets shut down, and Frank has had to carry them on his back. Hopefully this injury hasn't changed that.

NorthlakeTom
05-23-2005, 02:07 PM
Frank himself has repeatedly expressed a desire to retire in a Sox uniform.

I feel safe in making two assumptions: He is sincere in this desire. He does not need money. I believe Frank may be willing to stay with the team at a lesser salary than he would command elsewhere. Barring a ridiculous offer from Steinbrenner or like-minded owners, I'd like to think the chances of re-signing Frank are very good indeed.

Frater Perdurabo
05-23-2005, 02:09 PM
Jjav is the voice of reason on this one. I agree that the time to make the decision is after the 2005 season.

If Frank comes back and bombs or doesn't come back at all (heaven forbid on both!), then of course they should not pick up his option.

What I'm arguing is that the evidence available to this point overwhelmingly favors keeping Thomas and letting Konerko walk if there only is enough money or willingness to spend that money on one, but not both, of them. Previous production is all we can to analyze (unless someone has a crystal ball...)

They don't have to make a decision on Frank until this October.

At this point, based on the evidence to date, the only things they must not do are: 1) sign Paulie to a long-term extension before the season is over; and 2) trade Frank Thomas to another team.

Jjav829
05-23-2005, 02:13 PM
Jjav is the voice of reason on this one. I agree that the time to make the decision is after the 2005 season.

If Frank comes back and bombs or doesn't come back at all (heaven forbid on both!), then of course they should not pick up his option.

What I'm arguing is that the evidence available to this point overwhelmingly favors keeping Thomas and letting Konerko walk if there only is enough money or willingness to spend that money on one, but not both, of them. Previous production is all we can to analyze (unless someone has a crystal ball...)

They don't have to make a decision on Frank until this October.

At this point, based on the evidence to date, the only things they must not do are: 1) sign Paulie to a long-term extension before the season is over; and 2) trade Frank Thomas to another team.

Thank you, again, and well said. The part in bold sums it up well. That's pretty much been my point. Thankfully the decision won't be made until after the season. We still have 4 months of the season to see how this all plays out. After that we can make the decision on who to keep and who to let go.

For now, we have the best record in baseball. Screw the offseason! Let losers like Cubs fans look ahead to what they are going to do in the offseason. :cool:

hawkjt
05-23-2005, 02:22 PM
If Frank comes back and is reasonably productive I am quite sure that after the season he will sit down with Reinsdorf and Kenny and they will come to some kind of happey middle ground. Like 3 years 21 million. With Franks dedication to fitness I see him being productive for that long. He gets to 500hr as a sox and gets to retire a sox and go into the HOF as a sox. The org gets the goodwill from appreciative fans,good production from the DH spot and all the good pub that goes with 500 hr,statue unveiling,#35 retirement ceremony,ect. If Frank is still hitting at 40 they go year to year.

Frank is beyond the shammy deal- he is a born and bred greatest player in franchise history. You make exceptions for guys like this. Just like the pacers decided to pay Reggie Miller his next year salary of 6.1 million even tho he is retired.

If the sox win all the signing drama will recede. Paulie has to put up numbers for the sox to win the pennant and if he does he will get a deal.

White Sox Josh
05-23-2005, 05:24 PM
If it was for VLAD yes!!!!!!! AND that won't happen.

soxwon
05-23-2005, 05:25 PM
Frank is a 5/10 player. The odds of him taking a trade somewhere he cannot win, Tampa Bay, perhaps is highly unlikely.

I don't like the idea of trading him. We need him back.

thomas will be a lifetime sox- right into the Hall of Fame.

gosox41
05-23-2005, 07:29 PM
From today's Sun-Times:
http://www.suntimes.com/output/deluca/cst-spt-deluca22.htm

Trading Thomas might be a good idea.

If I owned the Sun Times here's be my deadline:

"GoSox41 tells DeLueca to get a frickin clue."


Bob