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veeter
05-18-2005, 10:39 AM
I love how so many WSI guys rip espn for jumping on and off bandwagons yet they do the same. Paul Konerko is on pace to hit 36 homers and drive in 113 runs. OBVIOUSLY his avg. sucks but he's been productive at clutch times. The two homer game in Toronto was huge. He's lined out MANY times and has played very well at first. If PK were hitting .270 with 9hr and 28 rbi guys would be praising him. But so many love to kick when a man is down. Bandwagon jumping is an art form here. I would love to see some posts from last year. Paulie will get better but his year IMO has been a 6 of 10 for clutch production. The "I would love Ross Gload at first the rest of the year" comment is an absolute joke. C'mon raise the intellect.

1951Campbell
05-18-2005, 10:42 AM
It's precisely because of the HRs and RBIs that I'm willing to wait and see. However, it's pretty unlikely that a guy can hover around .200 for a full season and get 36 HR and 113 RBI. I mean, he's not Rob Deer or Dave Kingman--thank goodness.

nccwsfan
05-18-2005, 10:46 AM
I'm all for discussing PK's future after the season is over, but to dismiss him 1/4 way into the season is a bit premature....

:rowand :jon

Keep the faith in PK

jshanahanjr
05-18-2005, 10:47 AM
Paulie is the man! Just keep on driving in runs and the hits will follow.

IA_soxfan
05-18-2005, 10:49 AM
Did you follow the Sox in 2003? If you did you'd know he batted an abysmal .234 with 18 homers and like 66 RBI. Konerko has yet to show us that he can put together back to back 2004 quality seasons. I think just about everybody here appreciates his contributions to the team and most believe him to be a stand up guy. But c'mon...a .196 average this far into the year? No reason to not get frustrated with that.

mdep524
05-18-2005, 10:55 AM
I love how so many WSI guys rip espn for jumping on and off bandwagons yet they do the same. Paul Konerko is on pace to hit 36 homers and drive in 113 runs. OBVIOUSLY his avg. sucks but he's been productive at clutch times. The two homer game in Toronto was huge. He's lined out MANY times and has played very well at first. If PK were hitting .270 with 9hr and 28 rbi guys would be praising him. But so many love to kick when a man is down. Bandwagon jumping is an art form here. I would love to see some posts from last year. Paulie will get better but his year IMO has been a 6 of 10 for clutch production. The "I would love Ross Gload at first the rest of the year" comment is an absolute joke. C'mon raise the intellect. There are so many things wrong with this post I don't know where to begin.

First, if Paulie's more current trends continue, there is NO WAY he'll reach 36/113. He is HR-less in his last 10 games, and has only 2 (both in one game) in his last 26 games. That projects to a pace of 12.5 HRs over a full season. So the projections are meaningless.

Second, Paulie has most certainly NOT been productive at clutch times- that one game in Toronto serving as the only exception. A .180 BA w/ runners in scoring position (.103 with 2 outs) does not count as clutch. He has whiffed quite a few times with runner son, and has failed to even advance runners most of the time.

Third, you say "If PK were hitting .270 with 9hr and 28 rbi guys would be praising him." Duh!!! :?: That is 80 points higher than he is hitting right now! That's like saying if Shingo had a 1.00 ERA we would be praising him. :rolleyes:

Lastly, no one likes to kick Paulie while he's down. I like the guy and wish him well, but ignorant posts like this that force some of us to speak to the other side of the issue. So don't tell US to "raise the intellect."

AZChiSoxFan
05-18-2005, 11:02 AM
Did you follow the Sox in 2003? If you did you'd know he batted an abysmal .234 with 18 homers and like 66 RBI. Konerko has yet to show us that he can put together back to back 2004 quality seasons. I think just about everybody here appreciates his contributions to the team and most believe him to be a stand up guy. But c'mon...a .196 average this far into the year? No reason to not get frustrated with that.

True, but at the break in 2003 he had something like 3 homers and 15 RBI, so he did have a decent second half. To just throw out his numbers for the entire 2003 season is misleading, IMO. I understand that numbers are numbers, but the fact is that he had a decent 2nd half of the season in 2003.

Kuzman
05-18-2005, 11:18 AM
Did you follow the Sox in 2003? If you did you'd know he batted an abysmal .234 with 18 homers and like 66 RBI. Konerko has yet to show us that he can put together back to back 2004 quality seasons. I think just about everybody here appreciates his contributions to the team and most believe him to be a stand up guy. But c'mon...a .196 average this far into the year? No reason to not get frustrated with that.

he was also batting UNDER .100 for about a week in the first half of the season. Then was unstoppable after that.

ode to veeck
05-18-2005, 11:24 AM
for the record, I'm on the Paulie bandwagon. Swing away, big guy!

Lip Man 1
05-18-2005, 11:25 AM
Story today in the Southtown on Paul's contract situation. It's an interesting read. Paul seems to be taking things in stride.

Lip

veeter
05-18-2005, 11:29 AM
I also forgot the BIG two run single in Tampa when the Sox desparately needed a win. They eventually won that game behind El Duque to avoid getting swept. WHEN PK's avg. does rise his production will ever increase. Paulie gets way down on himself and could be repeating 2003 but he's fighting through. I'm not an NU grad but I don't think "well duh" is proper english.

Norberto7
05-18-2005, 11:38 AM
I think if they rotated the left field foul line about 5 degrees towards the stands, Konerko would be hitting about .479. Seems like just about every at bat he rockets one foul on down that way.

Frater Perdurabo
05-18-2005, 11:41 AM
For the record, I've never been a huge Paul Konerko fan. I thought it was a mistake to trade CF Mike Cameron for any 1B when the Sox already had a Hall of Fame 1B in Frank Thomas! I'm a Sox fan and want any player wearing the silver and black to perform well in order to lead the Sox to victory. Consequently, I root for Sox players to succeed and jeer them when they suck. I've cheered when Paulie performed well and jeered when he's sucked. But even when he's at his best, Paulie's never been as good as an "average" Frank Thomas. Don't believe me? Check out their respective HR totals, AVG, OBP, SLG and OPS from 1999 to 2004:

99 Frank: 15, .305, .414, .471, .885
99 Paulie: 24, .294, .352, .511, .863

00 Frank: 43, .328, .436, .625, 1.061
00 Paulie: 31, .298, .363, .481, .844

01 Frank: 4, .221, .316, .441, .757 (in only 20 games!)
01 Paulie: 32, .282, .319, .507, .856

02 Frank: 28, .252, .361, .472, .833
02 Paulie: 27, .304, .359, .498, .857

03 Frank: 42, .267, .390, .562, .952
03 Paulie: 18, .234, .305, .399, .704

04 Frank: 18, .271, .434, .563, .997 (in 74 games)
04 Paulie: 41, .277, .359, .535, .894

In the years both played on the White Sox, even though he had two seasons cut short by injury, Frank has had two 40+ homer seasons to Paulie's one. Frank has had two .300 AVG or above seasons to Paulie's one. Frank had a higher OPS in four of the six seasons, and his lowest OPS (in 18 games!) is still 53 points higher than Paulie's lowest OPS over a whole season! Paulie's best season was 2004, with an .894 OPS. Frank's worst full season was 2002, when he had an .833 OPS.

Didn't Ron Schueler trade for Konerko because he was a hitter?
:?:

Now let's look at their HR totals, AVG, OBP, SLG and OPS production over the past three years, 2002-05, which includes each player's worst non-injury season (02 for Frank, 03 for Paulie):

Frank: 88, .262, .387, .526, .913 (1309 AB)
Paulie: 86, .275, .344, .483, .827 (1577 AB)

Frank has more home runs in 268 fewer at bats! His OBP is +.43, his SLG is +.43 and his OPS is +.86.

So, you say, Paulie a better hitter for average? Fine.
BUT PAULIE'S HITTING .196 ONE-QUARTER OF THE WAY THROUGH THE SEASON!

This November, if Kenny Williams can keep only one of the two, Frank or Paulie, who should he keep?
:kukoo:

There's no "hatred." I just want the Sox to win. Right now, they are winning in spite of Konerko's horrible production. Cleanup hitter is a position where the Sox need to improve (thankfully Paulie's not killing the Sox with poor defense). If Konerko solves his rectal-cranial inversion, no one will be happier than me. But if he doesn't, the Sox need to find a better cleanup hitter.

veeter
05-18-2005, 11:57 AM
When did this become Paul vs. Frank? To compare PK with Big Frank is completely unfair. They didn't aquire PK to take Frank's place at first. Frank was evolving in to a DH and they acted on it. The two have played together not one or the other. Also Paulie brings more than just a player. He's a leader and a true professional. Compare PK's numbers against other first basemen that aren't first ballot hall of famers. If the idea was to make Konerko look bad it's not because the comparison makes no sense.

Frater Perdurabo
05-18-2005, 11:58 AM
When did this become Paul vs. Frank? To compare PK with Big Frank is completely unfair. They didn't aquire PK to take Frank's place at first. Frank was evolving in to a DH and they acted on it. The two have played together not one or the other. Also Paulie brings more than just a player. He's a leader and a true professional. Compare PK's numbers against other first basemen that aren't first ballot hall of famers. If the idea was to make Konerko look bad it's not because the comparison makes no sense.

No, the idea is to make it completely clear who KW should keep this off-season, should he be presented that either/or dilemma.

Infallible
05-18-2005, 12:01 PM
I don't think there will be any dilema between PK and Big Frank. I think we are all aware that PK is at best a support player incapable of being the trend setter or the big role player......8 million is an atrocious amount to pay for a support player.........

jshanahanjr
05-18-2005, 12:11 PM
Paulie is never on the DL. You get 150+ games for better or worse.

JB98
05-18-2005, 12:13 PM
Did you follow the Sox in 2003? If you did you'd know he batted an abysmal .234 with 18 homers and like 66 RBI. Konerko has yet to show us that he can put together back to back 2004 quality seasons. I think just about everybody here appreciates his contributions to the team and most believe him to be a stand up guy. But c'mon...a .196 average this far into the year? No reason to not get frustrated with that.

Did you follow the Sox from 1999-2002 and in 2004? This is Konerko's seventh season with the Sox, and he has met or exceeded expectations in five of the first six. His body of work is certainly good enough for me to give him the benefit of the doubt during this extended slump. I have faith in him. He's going to come out of it.

No, he is not as good as Frank. Few are. As far as Paulie's contract status, I'm going to reserve judgement until the end of the year. We'll see what Konerko's final stats are. We'll see what kind of money he wants. We'll see if Frank proves he's healthy. We'll see if there are any other options at 1B out there. (No, Ross Gload is NOT a long-term answer). All these things are factors. It's WAAAAAAAAAAAAY too early to start thinking about who will be our 1B next year. This year, Paulie's our guy, and I'm behind him 100 percent.

WhiteSoxFan84
05-18-2005, 12:32 PM
No, the idea is to make it completely clear who KW should keep this off-season, should he be presented that either/or dilemma.

how old is frank? how old is paulie? who's the better on the field? how many games has thomas played this year? enough said.

i love the big hurt. i love paulie walnuts. if it were upto me, paulie would stay and thomas wouldn't play for any other team but the ChiSox.

Konerko is off to a horrendous start. I don't care how many HRs or RBIs he has. If you think about it, the only game I remember him helping us win was the 10-7 win in Toronto. He went 2-5 with 2 HRs, 5 RBIs, and 3 Ks. Many can argue he was swinging for the fences every at-bat and got lucky in 2 of those at-bats. am i jumping off his "bandwagon"? no. because he's still with my team and i still have love for the guy.

what i do expect or at least want to happen is to see him move down in the lineup. hopefully with less pressure on him to perform he will do just that, perform. and when he gets back into his groove, slowly move him back up to cleanup.

JB98
05-18-2005, 12:40 PM
Konerko is off to a horrendous start. I don't care how many HRs or RBIs he has. If you think about it, the only game I remember him helping us win was the 10-7 win in Toronto. He went 2-5 with 2 HRs, 5 RBIs, and 3 Ks. Many can argue he was swinging for the fences every at-bat and got lucky in 2 of those at-bats. am i jumping off his "bandwagon"? no. because he's still with my team and i still have love for the guy.

There was another game this year where the final score was Paulie 2, Mariners 1. He also had a leadoff double and scored the only run in the opening-day win. Last Friday, he had a two-run single to give us the lead for good against Baltimore. As a card-carrying member of Friends of PK, I have other examples if you need them.
:cool:

Fake Chet Lemon
05-18-2005, 01:12 PM
Frank back in the lineup will do wonders for Paulie. Does anybody remember what Paulie said after about two weeks when he had about 7 HRs already? He said he needed to hit those HRs with all he other sticks out. That made me nervous when I heard it, and he is pressing. Frank will help, and Ozzie should drop him in the order to take some pressure off. Put AJ in the 4 spot until he gets on track.

Frater Perdurabo
05-18-2005, 01:27 PM
This is Konerko's seventh season with the Sox, and he has met or exceeded expectations in five of the first six.

How would you define your expectations? He hasn't exactly met mine.

For a player billed as a "professional hitter" when he came here, designed to relegate HOF'er Frank Thomas to full-time DH duty, and acquired for a good CF who eventually would win 2 Gold Gloves, my "expectations" were a rock-solid, consistent .300 AVG and 30 homers per year. He's hit above .300 once (came close in 99 and 00) and more than 30 homers thrice (00, 01, 04).

His 162-game seasonal average is 29 homers, 100 RBI, .275 AVG, .344 OBP, .476 SLG, .822 OPS. I'd be happy with that if he was consistent. Yet his seasonal averages don't tell the frustrating full story of his enigmatic tendency to run hot and cold for half-seasons at a time.

maurice
05-18-2005, 02:01 PM
How would you define your expectations?

Many scouts projected Konerko to hit 40+ HR on a regular basis. He finally met that expectation last year . . . with a lot of help from Coors East. When the Sox traded for Konerko, they expected him to be able to play 3B. That didn't quite work out. He's a 1B who gets paid more than $8 mil / year. I think it's more than fair to expect at least the kind of production he's provided. And for the record . . .

Konerko:
- career OPS: .822
- worst OPS: .704 (2003)
- best OPS: .894 (2004)

Thomas:
- career OPS: .996
- worst OPS: .833 (2002)
- best OPS: 1.216 (1994)
- OPS in 2004: .997

Summary:
- Last year, Konerko had a career year and Thomas was plagued by injury, yet Thomas' OPS was still 100 point higher.
- Thomas' worst year is better than an average year for Konerko.
- The only issue with Thomas is his health.

chaz171
05-18-2005, 02:03 PM
I think Paul will be just fine.


Can I start the AJ Pierzynski bandwagon? I think his handling of the pitchers has been vital to White SOx Success.....

Iguana775
05-18-2005, 02:09 PM
lol. as i read this thread, Paulie gets a hit.


I for won hope that Paulie can turn it around. he's wasting a spot on my fantasy roster right now. i need him to turn it around! lol.

Frater Perdurabo
05-18-2005, 03:33 PM
I'm on the Sox bandwagon. Always have been, always will be. Since Paulie and Dye performed very well at the plate today, my hat's off to them. Let's hope it continues. It would be very happy to have to eat crow at the end of the year.

PicktoCLick72
05-18-2005, 03:40 PM
Paulie has te most clutch hits of pretty much anyone on the team minus Iguchi.

JB98
05-18-2005, 04:26 PM
How would you define your expectations? He hasn't exactly met mine.

For a player billed as a "professional hitter" when he came here, designed to relegate HOF'er Frank Thomas to full-time DH duty, and acquired for a good CF who eventually would win 2 Gold Gloves, my "expectations" were a rock-solid, consistent .300 AVG and 30 homers per year. He's hit above .300 once (came close in 99 and 00) and more than 30 homers thrice (00, 01, 04).

His 162-game seasonal average is 29 homers, 100 RBI, .275 AVG, .344 OBP, .476 SLG, .822 OPS. I'd be happy with that if he was consistent. Yet his seasonal averages don't tell the frustrating full story of his enigmatic tendency to run hot and cold for half-seasons at a time.

You obviously had higher expectations that I did. You're making my argument for me by quoting those numbers. Those numbers are good. Yes, he runs hot and cold. That's why he's merely a good hitter and not a great hitter.

Infallible
05-18-2005, 04:34 PM
Paulie has te most clutch hits of pretty much anyone on the team minus Iguchi.

you haven't watched the last three games that we lost did you?

Cubsuck_a_lot
05-18-2005, 04:38 PM
Paulie has te most clutch hits of pretty much anyone on the team minus Iguchi.

..and the most strikeouts and men stranded on base. im a Paulie supporter, but it is hard when he doent perform up to snuff. it's just really hard to take him seriously when he is SO inconsistent. i love the guy to death and it kills me every time i see that Paulie-strikeout-face-of-pain, but it's hard to stand behind a guy that continually slips into slumps and has sporadic productivity. is it really that much to ask that a guy youre paying so much dinero to hit above .250? and that's mediocre. benefit of the doubt given.

and im not sure i can count any more than two or three "clutch hits".

Paulwny
05-18-2005, 04:42 PM
You obviously had higher expectations that I did. You're making my argument for me by quoting those numbers. Those numbers are good. Yes, he runs hot and cold. That's why he's merely a good hitter and not a great hitter.

You're also making the argument for us, a good hitter shouldn't be making > $8 mil a year a great hitter should. That's what we're complaining about, he makes big money on this team and isn't consistant.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-18-2005, 04:48 PM
Konerko is an $8 million firstbasemen. He bats clean up and by definition gets more RBI opportunities than anybody else on the team.

Compared to other A.L. firstbasemen and other clean up hitters, he is a VERY MEDIOCRE performer and easily the most overpaid ballplayer on the Sox. Furthermore his performance to-date is hardly worse than we could have anticipated, given his unbelievable proclivity for extended slumps.

I have never seen a ballplayer with more apologists than Paul Konerko. I attribute this to his "hang dog" routine everytime he ****s up at the plate. "Oh, poor Paul... he's trying so hard..."

This is the big leagues. Results count. The Sox could spend the $8 million far better than on a tree trunk like Paul Konerko.

:KW
"I tried to move him last winter and couldn't get anyone to bite."

Iwritecode
05-18-2005, 04:56 PM
So if we did get rid of PK and keep Frank for next year, who do we get to replace PK's numbers with about the same $$$?

Serious question. I really don't pay much attention to players unless they are on the Sox. :cool:

NorthlakeTom
05-18-2005, 05:06 PM
You're also making the argument for us, a good hitter shouldn't be making > $8 mil a year a great hitter should. That's what we're complaining about, he makes big money on this team and isn't consistant.
It's not only Konerko.

Eric Chavez is making 8.5 this year, and he sucks much more than Paul.

Their 162 game averages are strikingly similar.

Konerko/Chavez

BA .278/.277
OBP .345/.354
R 81/93
2B 29/34
HR 29/30
RBI 99/101
SLG .481/.502

Chavez has four Gold Gloves, yes, but the fact is, $8 million doesn't really buy a whole lot these days.

I'm sure there are other players in slumps who make more than Konerko and Chavez. Giambi comes to mind right off the bat.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-18-2005, 05:09 PM
It's not only Konerko.

Eric Chavez is making 8.5 this year, and he sucks much more than Paul.

Thanks for proving Konerko sucks (nearly) as much as Chavez. Unfortunately that's not the question at hand.

Can we get equal/better production for $8 million from a firstbasemen/clean up hitter? That's the question.

We both know the answer.
:cool:

Daver
05-18-2005, 05:12 PM
So if we did get rid of PK and keep Frank for next year, who do we get to replace PK's numbers with about the same $$$?

Serious question. I really don't pay much attention to players unless they are on the Sox. :cool:

Casey Rogowski can give you some of that back, along with some speed for a big guy, but he would lack the power hitting ability. He'd cost the league minimum.

Paulwny
05-18-2005, 05:18 PM
I'm sure there are other players in slumps who make more than Konerko and Chavez. Giambi comes to mind right off the bat.

Let's discount giambi, his salary is a blip on George's salary radar screen. The question, at $8 mil, is Konerko overpaid for his production or is that money better used elsewhere next year.

Mickster
05-18-2005, 05:18 PM
So if we did get rid of PK and keep Frank for next year, who do we get to replace PK's numbers with about the same $$$?

Serious question. I really don't pay much attention to players unless they are on the Sox. :cool:

I would honestly make a run at Sweeny from KC at the trade deadline, let PK walk and you end up spending $3M more than PK for a guy that absolutely rakes at Sox Park. Sweeny playing 81 games at Sox Park??? :o:

JB98
05-18-2005, 05:42 PM
You're also making the argument for us, a good hitter shouldn't be making > $8 mil a year a great hitter should. That's what we're complaining about, he makes big money on this team and isn't consistant.

What do you care? It isn't your money. I posted earlier I'm reserving judgement about Konerko's contract status until after the season. The question is, what do we do about first base for the rest of this year. My argument: Stick with Paulie.

NorthlakeTom
05-18-2005, 05:45 PM
Konerko is an $8 million firstbasemen. He bats clean up and by definition gets more RBI opportunities than anybody else on the team.

Compared to other A.L. firstbasemen...

Let's find out. Platooned firstbasemen excluded.

Erstad (LA): $8.250
Hatteberg (Oak): 2.450
Hinske (Tor): 3.100
Broussard (Cle): 0.365
Sexon (Sea): 6.000
Palmeiro (Bal): 3.000
Teixeira (Tex): 3.625
Sweeney (KC): 11.000
Pena (Det): 2.575
Morneau (Min): 0.345
Martinez (NY): 2.750
Millar (Bos): 3.500

Make your own analysis.

The only veteran having a stellar year is Sweeney. Morneau is a second year anomaly. Martinez has been on a tear. The others are having so-so or poor seasons. Many are hitting in the .200 range just like Konerko.

Who would you want? Erstad isn't exactly tearing the ball off the cover. Sexon is doing okay. Sweeney would be a fantastic acquisition, but he costs $3 million more than Konerko.

Pauly's salary is high, but if he turns it around - and there's no reason he won't - he'll be worth every penny.

Jurr
05-18-2005, 05:51 PM
Aubrey Huff is about the only guy that makes sense to replace Konerko, and I'm saying right now that we NEED TO KEEP THE GUY. Everybody's down on him for starting off with a low average, but they'll probably be the same people bitching at the end of the season that JR didn't come up with enough money to keep the guy.

Paulie produces and has produced every year except 2003. He's also a clubhouse leader and doesn't let his problems at the plate affect his fielding. He's one of the few standup guys in baseball, and he's worth 8 mil a year. If the Sox can keep him at that salary (or 9 a year), he's a must keep. If his agent gets greedy and wants 11 mil a year or so, then we're better off looking elsewhere.

Sweeney was mentioned. Do we want a guy to take a chunk out of our payroll and not play half of a season? Sorry, we're not the Tigers.
Huff would be an affordable alternative, and he's one of the few guys that I'd take instead of Konerko NUMBERS WISE. People don't understand there's a whole lot more to a player than just his on-field contributions. Konerko is a great player for this team on and off the field, and I hope he retires in the silver and black.

Palpidious
05-18-2005, 05:56 PM
his numbers are skewed because he had a MONSTER first 2 weeks. if he continues to hit sub .200 he won't achieve those numbers you talked about

JB98
05-18-2005, 05:57 PM
his numbers are skewed because he had a MONSTER first 2 weeks. if he continues to hit sub .200 he won't achieve those numbers you talked about

But he won't continue to hit sub .200, so don't worry about it.

NorthlakeTom
05-18-2005, 06:02 PM
Aubrey Huff is about the only guy that makes sense to replace Konerko

Huff is making $5 million this year. He's played most of the year in the OF, which is a plus because he can play several positions.

Huff is not having a good year either. 2 HR, .245 BA. His career numbers are not much different than Konerko's, except that he's a .292 hitter.

Replacing Konerko with Huff to save $3 mil seems a bit drastic to me. But yes, I agree with your overall point that we should keep Konerko.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-18-2005, 06:18 PM
Pauly's salary is high, but if he turns it around - and there's no reason he won't - he'll be worth every penny.



Thanks. You just illustrated EXACTLY why Konerko sucks. He always has to turn it around. The only exception was 2002, and he fell flat on his face after an all-star first-half. He will NEVER put together a full season. Book it.

And if the Sox are stupid enough to bring him back, they ought to include a clause making him pay for his own walker.
:cool:

NorthlakeTom
05-18-2005, 06:23 PM
Thanks. You just illustrated EXACTLY why Konerko sucks. He always has to turn it around. The only exception was 2002, and he fell flat on his face after an all-star first-half. He will NEVER put together a full season. Book it.

And if the Sox are stupid enough to bring him back, they ought to include a clause making him pay for his own walker.
:cool:

We'll have to agree to disagree. Very few AL firstbasemen have earned their salary so far this year. The Sox would be taking a chance with almost anyone. Unless we can get Sweeney for $11 mil (and he will command more than that when his contract is up), I don't see dumping Konerko as a smart move. My opinion may change by September, but for now I say we keep him.

BTW, if this were July, I would tend to agree with you, but it's only mid-May.

voodoochile
05-18-2005, 06:30 PM
We'll have to agree to disagree. Very few AL firstbasemen have earned their salary so far this year. The Sox would be taking a chance with almost anyone. Unless we can get Sweeney for $11 mil (and he will command more than that when his contract is up), I don't see dumping Konerko as a smart move. My opinion may change by September, but for now I say we keep him.

BTW, if this were July, I would tend to agree with you, but it's only mid-May.

And that 1/2 season long slump has really been about a month so far. If he heats it up again to close the month and into June, he could easily enter the AS break with 20+ HR and 60 RBI (especially with Frank coming back).

He's one solid week from hitting .230. If he doesn't manage that then things need to be reevaluated, obviously, but I for one am not about to dump on him 25% of the way through the season unless the Sox clearly have a better option available.

Palpidious
05-18-2005, 06:33 PM
But he won't continue to hit sub .200, so don't worry about it.

how do you know? the man has a track record of when good being real good. and when being bad, being real bad. he will have to make MAJOR adjustments in his approach and his swing to break out of this. he's trying to pull everything and hit a home run everytime.

NorthlakeTom
05-18-2005, 06:50 PM
And that 1/2 season long slump has really been about a month so far. If he heats it up again to close the month and into June, he could easily enter the AS break with 20+ HR and 60 RBI (especially with Frank coming back).

He's one solid week from hitting .230. If he doesn't manage that then things need to be reevaluated, obviously, but I for one am not about to dump on him 25% of the way through the season unless the Sox clearly have a better option available.

I was thinking the same thing. The way some people are talking, you'd think he'd gone hitless for 100 games. His serious slump didn't really start until April 29th. He was hitting only .241 on the 27th, but he was fairly consistent, getting a hit most days. He had his first three hit game today, and I see no reason why he won't continue.

Why is it that when he strikes out in a RISP situation, people will claim that's all he's good for, but if he goes 3 for 4, that doesn't indicate anything?

Also, and to your point, even if he CONTINUES at this pace, he will enter the AS break with 20+ HR and 60+ RBI.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-18-2005, 06:54 PM
Why is it that when he strikes out in a RISP situation, people will claim that's all he's good for, but if he goes 3 for 4, that doesn't indicate anything?

Some of us are willing to look at his production year after year, and not invent a bunch of bull**** about why "Paulie is due" or "Paulie is about to break out" or "Paulie is really trying hard" or "Paulie is so hard on himself" or blah blah blah.

In his best season Paul Konerko was an above-average A.L. firstbasemen, nothing more. He's back to struggling, he is hurting the ballclub (something he would be the first to admit) and the excuses his apologists invent are wearing thin.
:rolleyes:

Paulwny
05-18-2005, 06:58 PM
t the excuses his apologists invent are wearing thin.
:rolleyes:


I'm waiting for the hip problem posts to show up.

NorthlakeTom
05-18-2005, 07:06 PM
Some of us are willing to look at his production year after year, and not invent a bunch of bull**** about why "Paulie is due" or "Paulie is about to break out" or "Paulie is really trying hard" or "Paulie is so hard on himself" or blah blah blah.

In his best season Paul Konerko was an above-average A.L. firstbasemen, nothing more. He's back to struggling, he is hurting the ballclub (something he would be the first to admit) and the excuses his apologists invent are wearing thin.
:rolleyes:

I understand your point, but he's only been struggling for 3 weeks! He wasn't struggling today. What if he goes 6 for 12 over the weekend? I just think the naysayers are too quick to demote him to Charlotte.

I know you've read my salary post, so you know there just isn't a whole lot of first base talent out there. And most of them are having bad starts.

Every player struggles. Every caliber. All of them. Some more than others, but I'm not giving up on Konerko after 41 games, half of which he did just fine. He has 29 RBIs and 10 HR. He's on pace to score 88 runs, hit 40 HR, drive in 116 and walk 100 times. What more do you want?

If that's being an apologist, so be it, but these numbers are in no way "invented."

PaleHoseGeorge
05-18-2005, 07:09 PM
I'm waiting for the hip problem posts to show up.

Actually I'm waiting for the post about all of his "intangibles." That's when I know the post about his remarkable ability to turn the 3-6-3 doubleplay is just around the corner.
:wink:

PaleHoseGeorge
05-18-2005, 07:18 PM
....
Every player struggles. Every caliber. All of them. Some more than others, but I'm not giving up on Konerko after 41 games, half of which he did just fine. He has 29 RBIs and 10 HR. He's on pace to score 88 runs, hit 40 HR, drive in 116 and walk 100 times.

Why does this sound like the BIGGEST rationalization of this entire thread? Every ballplayer goes into slumps the size and depth of Paul Konerko's?
:roflmao:

What more do you want?

How about numbers that would do somebody besides Rob Deer proud?
:cool:

JB98
05-18-2005, 07:21 PM
how do you know? the man has a track record of when good being real good. and when being bad, being real bad. he will have to make MAJOR adjustments in his approach and his swing to break out of this. he's trying to pull everything and hit a home run everytime.

Nonsense. He came up with a runner on third and one out in the first inning last night. He hit the ball back up the middle and got the run in. His real problem is he's swinging at pitches out of the strike zone.

How do I know he won't continue to hit below .200? Has he ever hit below .200 for a full season before? I think not.

Hell, he's already up to .211.
:cool:

nccwsfan
05-18-2005, 07:24 PM
So a side question is this- what kind of 1B can we get for $8 million or less? You're either looking at putting a rookie at 1st (if one is ready, fine), re-signing PK (if he'll sign at that number), or testing the free agent waters. What kind of FA 1st baseman with upside will be available for that price? Sweeney is $11 million to start and Helton is a pipe dream, unless we give up big time prospects (read: Sweeney/Anderson).

And I'm being serious- who is available come November? I just don't see them making any moves on PK whatsoever....

chisoxmike
05-18-2005, 07:31 PM
This is what I think...


I dont want Konerko traded. If this team makes the postseason, Konerko is one of the guys on this team that deserves to be there, he has battled with this team and has been A CLASS ACT GUY with this franchise through everything they have gone through. He along with Frank have been with this team for so long now that they are the face of this team and a White Sox postseason birth (lord willing) wouldn't be the same without Konerko.

Knucksie
05-18-2005, 07:35 PM
I think the Sox know exactly what they have in PK and are willing to take the bad (very bad) with the good (bordering on great).


During this slump, he has been a rally killer. When he is hot (which he can be for extended stretches) IMO, he is a feared hitter capable of lifting a club to a new level. Wait until he gets into a hot streak with Podsednek, Iguchi and Rowand in front of him. I bet Dye or whomever hits #5 will see a lot of good pitches and get hot as well.

I like Paulie, watching him play can be frustrating at times, but I don't see many realistic options at this point. We just have to hope that he continues to turn things around and then sustains it for the long haul.

Paulwny
05-18-2005, 07:36 PM
So a side question is this- what kind of 1B can we get for $8 million or less? You're either looking at putting a rookie at 1st (if one is ready, fine), re-signing PK (if he'll sign at that number), or testing the free agent waters. What kind of FA 1st baseman with upside will be available for that price? Sweeney is $11 million to start and Helton is a pipe dream, unless we give up big time prospects (read: Sweeney/Anderson).

And I'm being serious- who is available come November? I just don't see them making any moves on PK whatsoever....

Why would the player have to be a 1b ? Some of's and 3b men have coverted to 1b.

Whitesox029
05-18-2005, 07:36 PM
There are so many things wrong with this post I don't know where to begin.

First, if Paulie's more current trends continue, there is NO WAY he'll reach 36/113. He is HR-less in his last 10 games, and has only 2 (both in one game) in his last 26 games. That projects to a pace of 12.5 HRs over a full season. So the projections are meaningless.

Second, Paulie has most certainly NOT been productive at clutch times- that one game in Toronto serving as the only exception. A .180 BA w/ runners in scoring position (.103 with 2 outs) does not count as clutch. He has whiffed quite a few times with runner son, and has failed to even advance runners most of the time.

Third, you say "If PK were hitting .270 with 9hr and 28 rbi guys would be praising him." Duh!!! :?: That is 80 points higher than he is hitting right now! That's like saying if Shingo had a 1.00 ERA we would be praising him. :rolleyes:

Lastly, no one likes to kick Paulie while he's down. I like the guy and wish him well, but ignorant posts like this that force some of us to speak to the other side of the issue. So don't tell US to "raise the intellect."
veeter is right. while you make a few good points, I hope you're not saying that we need to dismiss any chance of signing PK after 25-30 or so bad games, or that you'd really rather have Ross Gload at first the rest of the year. Look around. Eric Chavez is hitting about .200. Does that mean I'm going to trade him in my fantasy league? No. And I'm not trading PK either. These posts are identical to those from 2003, and then Konerko proved you all wrong in '04. Watch as it happens again.

NorthlakeTom
05-18-2005, 07:40 PM
Why does this sound like the BIGGEST rationalization of this entire thread? Every ballplayer goes into slumps the size and depth of Paul Konerko's?

Why is this the biggest mischaracterization of my words? I never said every ballplayer slumps like Konerko. I said nothing of the sort. You see a three week slump and expand it to include half a season. Be the pessimist. That's your prerogative.

Konerko didn't hit 41 HR and drive in 117 last year from struggling. If he needs to struggle occasionally to put up those numbers, so what? Did you read his projected stats so far? His run production is on pace to match last year almost exactly.

Before you give up on Konerko, I suggest you check the stats of the other firstbasemen in the league. Many expensive hitters are struggling right now.

(Oh yeah, I forgot...Rob Deer this, Rob Deer that. Who's rationalizing now?)

NorthlakeTom
05-18-2005, 07:46 PM
Nonsense. He came up with a runner on third and one out in the first inning last night. He hit the ball back up the middle and got the run in. His real problem is he's swinging at pitches out of the strike zone.

How do I know he won't continue to hit below .200? Has he ever hit below .200 for a full season before? I think not.

Hell, he's already up to .211.
:cool:

But..but...what about that game he went 0 for 4? If you expand that out over a whole season, he'll finish the year at .008

And what about those 3 strikeouts? Hell, that's 486 strikeouts over a 162 game average! Yikes!

(Thanks for being a voice of sanity.)

PaleHoseGeorge
05-18-2005, 08:12 PM
You see a three week slump and expand it to include half a season. Be the pessimist. That's your prerogative.

Excusing Konerko's career of being overpaid for mediocre production is your perogative. I'm hardly concerned about his current "3 week" slump except how it fits the general mediocrity Konerko *always* delivers for an A.L. firstbasemen.

Nobody will be happier than me If the team wins in spite of Paul Konerko. So far, so good, so no worries.

I'll hasten to remind you that the Sox slide into oblivion last August coincided perfectly with the injuries to Sox hitters worth far more than Paul Konerko's $8 MM. Pitchers feasted on the the Sox offense once Konerko was moved up to #4 last year, and all his ribbies and dingers can't hide this fact. The line up had no punch... and we lost games by the bushel.

The Sox problems hitting the ball in the middle of the line up were completely predictable, and only those capable of shallow analysis could mistaken Konerko's leading role in causing the trouble. We're getting exactly what Paul Konerko can be expected to deliver.

Palpidious
05-18-2005, 08:44 PM
the main point is, IS HE WORTH THE MONEY? and if you look at it with your mind and not your heart you have to say NO

NorthlakeTom
05-18-2005, 08:56 PM
Excusing Konerko's career of being overpaid for mediocre production is your perogative.
I'm not excusing anything or anybody. I'm simply not ready to replace him with Gload just yet, as so many seem to suggest. Let me ask you. What do 40 HR and 100 RBI go for nowadays? Is $8 million too much? Perhaps, but it's certainly not unusual.

Nobody will be happier than me If the team wins in spite of Paul Konerko. So far, so good, so no worries.
This is where I disagree with you strongly. You already have written his season off. Hell, it's obvious you expect nothing out of him before the season even starts. You don't like Konerko. I get it.

I'll hasten to remind you that the Sox slide into oblivion last August coincided perfectly with the injuries to Sox hitters worth far more than Paul Konerko's $8 MM. Pitchers feasted on the the Sox offense once Konerko was moved up to #4 last year, and all his ribbies and dingers can't hide this fact. The line up had no punch... and we lost games by the bushel.
Show me the splits, and I'll take this seriously. The Sox scored 865 runs last year. Third behind NY and Bos. Are you saying they scored most of those runs before Frank and Magglio went out? I find it hard to believe there was a major difference between the first and second halves. I tend to blame the 4.91 team ERA for the club's failure. But then, what do I know. It must really be all Konerko's fault.

The Sox problems hitting the ball in the middle of the line up were completely predictable, and only those capable of shallow analysis could mistaken Konerko's leading role in causing the trouble. We're getting exactly what Paul Konerko can be expected to deliver.
Yeah, you're right. Paul Konerko is the anti-Christ. Again, I get it.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-18-2005, 09:10 PM
I'm not excusing anything or anybody. I'm simply not ready to replace him with Gload just yet, as so many seem to suggest. Let me ask you. What do 40 HR and 100 RBI go for nowadays? Is $8 million too much? Perhaps, but it's certainly not unusual.


This is where I disagree with you strongly. You already have written his season off. Hell, it's obvious you expect nothing out of him before the season even starts. You don't like Konerko. I get it.


Show me the splits, and I'll take this seriously. The Sox scored 865 runs last year. Third behind NY and Bos. Are you saying they scored most of those runs before Frank and Magglio went out? I find it hard to believe there was a major difference between the first and second halves. I tend to blame the 4.91 team ERA for the club's failure. But then, what do I know. It must really be all Konerko's fault.


Yeah, you're right. Paul Konerko is the anti-Christ. Again, I get it.

Wow! I have no idea where you have drawn any of these conclusions except to ask what are you smoking?

I have NEVER invoked Russ Gload's name. Ever.

I have NEVER written off this season. You're on crack.

I have merely noted that Paul Konerko's bat is no substitute for a healthy Frank Thomas or Magglio Ordonez... hardly an earth-shattering observation.

Paul Konerko the anti-Christ? Christ man, go towel off. Now you're just embarrassing yourself.
:kukoo:

JB98
05-18-2005, 09:11 PM
Excusing Konerko's career of being overpaid for mediocre production is your perogative. I'm hardly concerned about his current "3 week" slump except how it fits the general mediocrity Konerko *always* delivers for an A.L. firstbasemen.

Nobody will be happier than me If the team wins in spite of Paul Konerko. So far, so good, so no worries.

I'll hasten to remind you that the Sox slide into oblivion last August coincided perfectly with the injuries to Sox hitters worth far more than Paul Konerko's $8 MM. Pitchers feasted on the the Sox offense once Konerko was moved up to #4 last year, and all his ribbies and dingers can't hide this fact. The line up had no punch... and we lost games by the bushel.

The Sox problems hitting the ball in the middle of the line up were completely predictable, and only those capable of shallow analysis could mistaken Konerko's leading role in causing the trouble. We're getting exactly what Paul Konerko can be expected to deliver.

C'mon, PHG. Are you trying to tell me the slide into oblivion last August was caused by Konerko was moving into the clean-up spot? I think your dislike for Konerko has given you amnesia. Remember all the other problems we had last year after Frank and Maggs went down? We had Borchard and Perez platooning in right field. Gload went from support player to everyday player. We had Manos hitting .210 with all his strikeouts. Valentin, Harris and Alomar combined to make our middle infield a black hole. Crede was terrible down the stretch. And don't get me started about the mighty Burke/Davis catching situation. We had at least four automatic outs in the lineup every day.

It was all Konerko's fault.

NorthlakeTom
05-18-2005, 09:12 PM
the main point is, IS HE WORTH THE MONEY? and if you look at it with your mind and not your heart you have to say NO
Is Manny Ramirez worth 22.5? Is any player worth $22 million dollars?

I would say Michael Jordan was worth every nickel of his $30 million per year, but there are dozens of highly overpaid baseball players out there.

It's up to Jerry and Kenny to worry about the salary. I think it's pointless for us to argue whether Konerko is worth $8 million. I can show you plenty of players who aren't worth the paper their contract is signed on. So what? The question is whether Konerko is beneficial to the team. You can't replace him with a comparable power hitter for less than $5 million, and that's probably a stretch. If you want to spend big bucks to sign a Mike Sweeney, who would you give up?

FarWestChicago
05-18-2005, 09:16 PM
Paul Konerko the anti-Christ? Christ man, go towel off. Now you're just embarrassing yourself.
That was certainly a bit of a stretch. You have always maintained that Paulie is mediocre as an AL first bagger. The numbers have pretty much backed you up. AL first basemen should be serious mashers on a consistent basis. I don't think that's an unrealistic expectation and it's easy to make the case Paulie hasn't always been at the top of the class. What's the big deal? :?:

PaleHoseGeorge
05-18-2005, 09:16 PM
It was all Konerko's fault.

Well sure, not any more than his current hitting slump isn't the cause of our current offensive woes either. He simply plays a leading role in the trouble. He's the clean up hitter.

Paul Konerko is not a hitter to be confused with the sort of hitters a healthy Frank Thomas or Magglio Ordonez have proven themselves to be. So where am I breaking new ground here?
:?:

NorthlakeTom
05-18-2005, 09:25 PM
Wow! I have no idea where you have drawn any of these conclusions except to ask what are you smoking?
Well then, you need to reread your post. I draw these conclusions from your rhetoric.

I have NEVER invoked Russ Gload's name. Ever.
Never said you did. I was merely explaining my position. I said "as many here seem to suggest," not, "as you seem to suggest."

I have NEVER written off this season. You're on crack.
We're down to ad hominem now. Okay.

Explain this:
Nobody will be happier than me If the team wins in spite of Paul Konerko

Hmmm... In SPITE of Paul Konerko? Sounds like you expect him to faulter all season.

I have merely noted that Paul Konerko's bat is no substitute for a healthy Frank Thomas or Magglio Ordonez... hardly an earth-shattering observation.
Well, I agree with you here, but I don't recall this point ever being raised.

Paul Konerko the anti-Christ? Christ man, go towel off. Now you're just embarrassing yourself.
LMAO! It's not that I don't embarass easily, it's that I don't embarrass at all. It was a play on words. A rhetorical vehicle to convey how I read your opinion of Paul Konerko. Nothing more. If I'm wrong in that assessment, then I apologize. (But by reading your words, I don't think I'm wrong.)

PaleHoseGeorge
05-18-2005, 09:32 PM
Well then, you need to reread your post. I draw these conclusions from your rhetoric.


Never said you did. I was merely explaining my position. I said "as many here seem to suggest," not, "as you seem to suggest."


We're down to ad hominem now. Okay.

Explain this:
Nobody will be happier than me If the team wins in spite of Paul Konerko

Hmmm... In SPITE of Paul Konerko? Sounds like you expect him to faulter all season.


Well, I agree with you here, but I don't recall this point ever being raised.


LMAO! It's not that I don't embarass easily, it's that I don't embarrass at all. It was a play on words. A rhetorical vehicle to convey how I read your opinion of Paul Konerko. Nothing more. If I'm wrong in that assessment, then I apologize. (But by reading your words, I don't think I'm wrong.)

Glad to know you're only partially delusional. Try sticking to WHAT I WRITE and not the crazy voices talking inside your head.

It's works better this way.
:rolleyes:

JB98
05-18-2005, 09:35 PM
Well sure, not any more than his current hitting slump isn't the cause of our current offensive woes either. He simply plays a leading role in the trouble. He's the clean up hitter.

Paul Konerko is not a hitter to be confused with the sort of hitters a healthy Frank Thomas or Magglio Ordonez have proven themselves to be. So where am I breaking new ground here?
:?:

And I'm not arguing that point. Frank and Magglio are both better than PK. However, last year was not PK's fault. He put his numbers up.

This year, he's been a big part of our offensive woes. I'm not disputing that. He's been in a slump for about a month now. My argument is, he's going to come out of it, and the numbers will be there in the end. There just seems to be a rampant paranoia on this board that PK is going to repeat his woeful 2003 season, and that's what I'm taking issue with. PK had only 18 HRs two years ago. Assuming good health, he'll have that by the All-Star break this year.

If the biggest problem on our team is Paul Konerko, we are truly blessed as Sox fans. I can tell you that. At least we're not pissing and moaning about Schoeneweis and Felix Diaz this year.

NorthlakeTom
05-18-2005, 09:35 PM
Well sure, not any more than his current hitting slump isn't the cause of our current offensive woes either. He simply plays a leading role in the trouble. He's the clean up hitter.

Paul Konerko is not a hitter to be confused with the sort of hitters a healthy Frank Thomas or Magglio Ordonez have proven themselves to be. So where am I breaking new ground here?
:?:
You're not breaking new ground. You are placing all the team's negatives, this season and last, squarely on Konerko's back. At least it seems that way.

Konerko is Konerko. I don't know what all this "heartfelt love for Pauly" talk is all about, as I see him as only a baseball player. He's not Frank or Magglio, and I would never make such a comparison. I don't blame him for all the team's problems either. He's had a little difficulty getting out of the box so far, but he has driven in 29 runs. I'm sorry, but that does count for something.

Now, the talk about his salary is another issue. I think they're all overpaid, so you'll get no argument from me there.

NorthlakeTom
05-18-2005, 09:38 PM
Glad to know you're only partially delusional. Try sticking to WHAT I WRITE and not the crazy voices talking inside your head.

It's works better this way.
:rolleyes:
Only if you stop replying to my posts. Deal?

I'm fully prepared to ignore you altogether. Do the same for me, okay?

PaleHoseGeorge
05-18-2005, 09:39 PM
If the biggest problem on our team is Paul Konerko, we are truly blessed as Sox fans. I can tell you that. At least we're not pissing and moaning about Schoeneweis and Felix Diaz this year.

There is no arguing about the successful formula of a team winning over 70 percent of their games. The Sox are winning and that's all that matters -- regardless of who is in another (predictable) slump or ought to be contributing more.

Of course that's a position a bit too nuanced for some the deep thinkers around here.
:cool:

PaleHoseGeorge
05-18-2005, 09:42 PM
Only if you stop replying to my posts. Deal?

I'm fully prepared to ignore you altogether. Do the same for me, okay?

I've got one rule. Nobody I ignore can post here, because I'm not prepared to attach my name to a pile of complete bull****.

I don't think you want that deal. Maybe you ought to leave?

PaleHoseGeorge
05-18-2005, 09:45 PM
You're not breaking new ground. You are placing all the team's negatives, this season and last, squarely on Konerko's back. At least it seems that way.

Konerko is Konerko. I don't know what all this "heartfelt love for Pauly" talk is all about, as I see him as only a baseball player. He's not Frank or Magglio, and I would never make such a comparison. I don't blame him for all the team's problems either. He's had a little difficulty getting out of the box so far, but he has driven in 29 runs. I'm sorry, but that does count for something.

Now, the talk about his salary is another issue. I think they're all overpaid, so you'll get no argument from me there.

Those are the crazy voices inside your head again. Stop arguing with yourself because nobody made the case you're countering here.
:kukoo:

CLR01
05-18-2005, 10:08 PM
I was thinking the same thing. The way some people are talking, you'd think he'd gone hitless for 100 games. His serious slump didn't really start until April 29th. He was hitting only .241 on the 27th, but he was fairly consistent, getting a hit most days.


He was 6 for 29 the previous 8 games. Batting .206 is not considered a serious slump? :dunno:

Also, and to your point, even if he CONTINUES at this pace, he will enter the AS break with 20+ HR and 60+ RBI.

:rolleyes:

voodoochile
05-18-2005, 10:09 PM
Some of us are willing to look at his production year after year, and not invent a bunch of bull**** about why "Paulie is due" or "Paulie is about to break out" or "Paulie is really trying hard" or "Paulie is so hard on himself" or blah blah blah.

In his best season Paul Konerko was an above-average A.L. firstbasemen, nothing more. He's back to struggling, he is hurting the ballclub (something he would be the first to admit) and the excuses his apologists invent are wearing thin.
:rolleyes:

Don't his numbers from last year 41 HR 116 RBI (with no Frank or Magglio hitting in front of him) put him among the elite of AL 1B? Are there really that many more 1B who have significantly better numbers than those stats?

FarWestChicago
05-18-2005, 10:16 PM
Don't his numbers from last year 41 HR 116 RBI (with no Frank or Magglio hitting in front of him) put him among the elite of AL 1B? Are there really that many more 1B who have significantly better numbers than those stats?Can he repeat last year? It seems to be the only one where he didn't stink up a half season. And he's well on the way to stinking up a half season this year. It's food for thought.

MRKARNO
05-18-2005, 10:19 PM
Don't his numbers from last year 41 HR 116 RBI (with no Frank or Magglio hitting in front of him) put him among the elite of AL 1B? Are there really that many more 1B who have significantly better numbers than those stats?

Well last year, Konerko was arguably the best AL first n baseman. But compared to the best of the best of NL first basemen (Pujols, Helton, Thome) he wasnt as good. Maybe as good as Thome, but definitely not close to Pujols or Helton in terms of a complete hitter. Also, that was Konerko's best year by far and most of that production came at home. He wasn't very good on the road, where his OPS was 300 points lower.

I think he's pretty good, but he definitely is slump-prone, which prevents him from truly being among the elite first baggers in baseball. He probably will get out of this slump and put out a fine season, but it's just really annoying to have your 4 hitter dissappear for a month occasionally. It went less noticed when we had the awesome power core with Lee, Magglio and Frank, but you do not build your lineup around a Paul Konerko. Now Frank Thomas, that's another story.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Pauly, but it's not the best idea to rely on him as the main source of production. Frank should take off a lot of the pressure when he gets back (which better not be the 18 more days that he's indicated).

JB98
05-18-2005, 10:21 PM
Don't his numbers from last year 41 HR 116 RBI (with no Frank or Magglio hitting in front of him) put him among the elite of AL 1B? Are there really that many more 1B who have significantly better numbers than those stats?

His 41 HRs and 117 RBIs led AL first basemen. Unless you want to include Ortiz, who had 41 HRs and 139 RBIs. Of course, he's a primarily a DH.

The most comparable 1B to Konerko was Teixeira, who finished with 38 HRs and 112 RBIs.

voodoochile
05-18-2005, 10:23 PM
Okay, I pulled up some stats.

Amongst AL 1B in 2004, PK finished:

3rd in OPS (.894)

T-2nd SLG (.535)

1st HR (41)

1st RBI (117)

For all of MLB 1B PK finished:

OPS - 7th

SLG - T-6th

HR - 3rd

RBI - 2nd

This year his numbers are off, but he is 2nd amongst 1B in walks with 25 which for a guy hitting .211 AFTER today's good game, shows just how few pitches he is seeing to hit, IMO. Speaks as much to his lack of protection as anything else. No surprise to me that the minute he gets some protection, he starts to hit.

Is PK worth $8M a year? Yes, if he can consistently put up numbers like last year, he would be. The guys in front of him in terms of HR and RBI (Thome and Pujols) last year are both worth that much and more.

Is it damned frustrating to watch him go through extended slumps? Absolutely, but if the number are there at the end of the year, he must have helped the team somewhere along the line and with numbers like he put up last year, he helped a LOT more than he hurt...

FarWestChicago
05-18-2005, 10:24 PM
His 41 HRs and 117 RBIs led AL first basemen. Unless you want to include Ortiz, who had 41 HRs and 139 RBIs. Of course, he's a primarily a DH.

The most comparable 1B to Konerko was Teixeira, who finished with 38 HRs and 112 RBIs.But again, it was his best season by far and he may be returning to the norm. I like Paulie, but is he worth the money an elite first baseman should be paid? I think that's a valid question.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-18-2005, 10:24 PM
Don't his numbers from last year 41 HR 116 RBI (with no Frank or Magglio hitting in front of him) put him among the elite of AL 1B? Are there really that many more 1B who have significantly better numbers than those stats?

First, he did hit with Frank and/or Magglio for over half the season.

Second, rbi's are largely a function of where you hit in the order because it's really helpful to your rbi totals if somebody is on base to be batted in.

Third, 41 home runs truly is an impressive number of home runs, until you realize nobody besides a DH stands around more than a firstbasemen which is why most teams get high power numbers from their firstbasemen. OPS's over 800 like Konerko's are hardly rare for firstbasemen.

Currently there are 176 ballplayers in MLB with a batting average higher than our clean up hitter's.

veeter
05-18-2005, 10:34 PM
First, he did hit with Frank and/or Magglio for over half the season.

Second, rbi's are largely a function of where you hit in the order because it's really helpful to your rbi totals if somebody is on base to be batted in.

Third, 41 home runs truly is an impressive number of home runs, until you realize nobody besides a DH stands around more than a firstbasemen which is why most teams get high power numbers from their firstbasemen. OPS's over 800 like Konerko's are hardly rare for firstbasemen.

Currently there are 176 ballplayers in MLB with a batting average higher than our clean up hitter's. I've heard it all now. First basemen produce high power numbers because they stand around. Was that supposed to be in teal?

voodoochile
05-18-2005, 10:35 PM
First, he did hit with Frank and/or Magglio for over half the season.

Second, rbi's are largely a function of where you hit in the order because it's really helpful to your rbi totals if somebody is on base to be batted in.

Third, 41 home runs truly is an impressive number of home runs, until you realize nobody besides a DH stands around more than a firstbasemen which is why most teams get high power numbers from their firstbasemen. OPS's over 800 like Konerko's are hardly rare for firstbasemen.

Currently there are 176 ballplayers in MLB with a batting average higher than our clean up hitter's.

Okay, first, just to be picky, Frank appeared in 74 games last year and Maggs appeared in 52 so by no standard did they appear in over half the games the team played in and PK led the team in games played with 155.

Second, to characterize his OPS as "over .800" is pretty selective stat representation. .894 would be more accurately characterized as "almost .900" which place him tied for 30th in all of baseball last season. That's pretty solid production and would land him an AS bid at any other position and puts him on the bubble at 1B.

He climbed a few notches today and it's more like 170 with better averages and yes that is picky, but so is judging a guy based on 25% of the season IMO.

Just to take continue that concept though, there are only 11 players with more HR and 15 with more RBI than PK at present in all of MLB.

It's WAY too early to be having this discussion is all I am trying to say and the Sox still don't have a better option at present.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-18-2005, 10:37 PM
I've heard it all now. First basemen produce high power numbers because they stand around. Was that supposed to be in teal?

Impersonating a tree trunk is Job One for every firstbasemen in the league. What's got you confused? They don't need to run so you put the biggest slow-footed slugger you can find over there and slot him #4 in your line up.

Think "Boog Powell" and "Frank Howard" and it will all start making sense.

:wink:

veeter
05-18-2005, 10:39 PM
41 homers is impressive if you nap between at bats. Do you want to talk baseball history let's go.

JB98
05-18-2005, 10:40 PM
But again, it was his best season by far and he may be returning to the norm. I like Paulie, but is he worth the money an elite first baseman should be paid? I think that's a valid question.

Sure it is, and that's why I would reserve judgement on giving him a new contract until after the season. If we see 40 HRs and 120 RBIs at the end of the year, I would say yes. I'm not prepared to make that argument yet. The main reason I jumped into this thread was to refute posters who are ready to give the everyday 1B job to the likes of Ross Gload or replace Paulie by other means. I think such suggestions are premature, if not downright silly.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-18-2005, 10:45 PM
He climbed a few notches today and it's more like 170 with better averages and yes that is picky, but so is judging a guy based on 25% of the season IMO

You're right. His .211 average has moved him up to 173rd in the league.
:wink:

Let me restate something that keeps getting overlooked: I'm not judging Konerko on April-May, 2005. I'm judging Konerko on repeated and often extended hitting slumps throughout his entire playing career.

Let me restate one other overlooked point: The team is winning. So even with Konerko's troubles the team is doing exceptionally well. If (when) Konerko starts hitting again, the stellar pitching staff can breathe a bit easier. As it stands now the Sox need everything the rotation and bullpen have delivered.

Daver
05-18-2005, 10:46 PM
It's WAY too early to be having this discussion is all I am trying to say and the Sox still don't have a better option at present.

There are options, some of them are a much better fit to the defense, pitching, and speed concept. Paulie needs to justify his paycheck, if he can't do that then he needs to be replaced, flirting with the Mendoza line is not not justifying your paycheck.

voodoochile
05-18-2005, 10:52 PM
There are options, some of them are a much better fit to the defense, pitching, and speed concept. Paulie needs to justify his paycheck, if he can't do that then he needs to be replaced, flirting with the Mendoza line is not not justifying your paycheck.

You take PK out of the lineup for a speed/defense minded 1B and this team's power production drops to almost nil until Frank gets back. Unless you are counting on Dye and Everett to suddenly get hot. Over the course of his career, PK has been a comparable hitter to those two in terms of power production so why we should expect them to do it when older and less healthy than PK is currently and not expect PK to do it seems like bad thinking to me.

Pk's been a horrible funk. I agree, but this is the wrong time to be talking about taking him out of the lineup, IMO.

Randar68
05-18-2005, 10:54 PM
I love how so many WSI guys rip espn for jumping on and off bandwagons yet they do the same.

Well, I luve how people think just because someone wears a Whitesox uniform, they are immune to criticism, no matter how poorly they play or what make in the salary column. Compound the issue for "fan favorites"...

Konerko shows up for a half-season at a crack. Having that guy as your #4 hitter is inexcusable if you intend to contend. You can't contend if you have a hitter at the leadoff spot or in the heart of the order who makes Royce Clayton look like Joe DiMaggio in his bad halves.

Add in his annual rally-killing tendency, his inability to hit w/ RISP, and one of the top all-time GIDP/AB ratios in baseball history. You read that? BASEBALL HISTORY...

Sounds like the perfect player for Ozzie ball, especially when he's decided he needs to be THE power hitter and use only 1/3rd of the field...

PaleHoseGeorge
05-18-2005, 10:56 PM
Pk's been a horrible funk. I agree, but this is the wrong time to be talking about taking him out of the lineup, IMO.

Just curious voodoo... who here is arguing in favor of taking Konerko out of the line up?
:?:

I haven't seen the point made yet, except by Konerko's defenders making strawman arguments.

FarWestChicago
05-18-2005, 10:57 PM
Just curious voodoo... who here is arguing in favor of taking Konerko out of the line up?
:?:

I haven't seen the point made yet, except by Konerko's defenders making strawman arguments.LOL, that one had me scratching my head, too. I was just saying he's not worth elite money if he returns to his normal half season performance. :D:

Randar68
05-18-2005, 10:57 PM
You take PK out of the lineup for a speed/defense minded 1B and this team's power production drops to almost nil until Frank gets back. Unless you are counting on Dye and Everett to suddenly get hot. Over the course of his career, PK has been a comparable hitter to those two in terms of power production so why we should expect them to do it when older and less healthy than PK is currently and not expect PK to do it seems like bad thinking to me.

Pk's been a horrible funk. I agree, but this is the wrong time to be talking about taking him out of the lineup, IMO.

His power? What does that buy us? 20 more rally-killing GIDP's a year? a .200 average with RISP? 25 Solo Hr's and 10-25 with runners on base?

Really? If we want power and no ability to get a hit w/ RISP call up Borch. I'd be surprised if he didn't run into 30 balls a year and he costs (in salary, his bonus is long gone) a fraction of PK.

voodoochile
05-18-2005, 10:58 PM
Just curious voodoo... who here is arguing in favor of taking Konerko out of the line up?
:?:

I haven't seen the point made yet, except by Konerko's defenders making strawman arguments.

I was replying to Daver, who said:

There are options, some of them are a much better fit to the defense, pitching, and speed concept.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-18-2005, 11:04 PM
I was replying to Daver, who said:

But nobody said do it now, after 25% of the season has been played?
:?:

Hey, we're stuck with Paul Konerko. KW tried to trade him last winter and failed for lack of interested buyers. So he went to "Plan B" (trade Lee) and everything has come up clover for the '05 Sox ever since. I've got no beef with any of it.

With his salary, his numbers, his legs, and his inversatile playing position, Paul Konerko isn't going anywhere.

The scary part is we are paying the price for not moving Konerko last winter, and we'll almost certainly pay the price all season long, too. I'm pretty sure Konehead will hit better than .211, but I'm not betting on a repeat of his 2004 numbers either.

voodoochile
05-18-2005, 11:04 PM
His power? What does that buy us? 20 more rally-killing GIDP's a year? a .200 average with RISP? 25 Solo Hr's and 10-25 with runners on base?

Really? If we want power and no ability to get a hit w/ RISP call up Borch. I'd be surprised if he didn't run into 30 balls a year and he costs (in salary, his bonus is long gone) a fraction of PK.

Come on, you are better at stats than that. One reason PK has such a high GIDP ratio is because he takes a LOT of at bats historically with guys on base.

It's May 19th and the guy has had a bad 3 week stretch and yet still managed to singlehandedly win one game for the team in that stretch with the two HR he hit.

The team is not struggling. PK has had no protection and is finally showing signs of life the last week (lots of foul LD and then last night and today some started to fall fair).

You are all gungho to say, "his first half sucked" and we are only half way through the first half. Meanwhile during the first 1/8th of the season he basically carried the offense with some help from Joe Crede (another bum :rolleyes: ) beore coming up short the next 1/8th of the season.

Go ahead and rant and rave. It doesn't really bother me, but I personally think it's just too damned soon to make this decision...

voodoochile
05-18-2005, 11:05 PM
But nobody said do it now, after 25% of the season has been played?
:?:

Hey, we're stuck with Paul Konerko. KW tried to trade him last winter and failed for lack of interested buyers. So he went to "Plan B" (trade Lee) and everything has come up clover for the '05 Sox ever since. I've got no beef with any of it.

With his salary, his numbers, his legs, and his inversatile playing postion, Paul Konerko isn't going anywhere.

The scary part is we are paying the price for not moving Konerko last winter, and we'll almost certainly pay the price all season long, too. I'm pretty sure Konehead will hit better than .211, but I'm not betting on a repeat of his 2004 numbers either.

That's the way I interpreted it and what I responded to.

voodoochile
05-18-2005, 11:07 PM
Oh and might as well throw this at PK while we are at it...

:tomatoaward

FarWestChicago
05-18-2005, 11:09 PM
Oh and might as well throw this at PK while we are at it...:hawk

How the hell did he hit into a double play with a tomato? Mercy!! :o:

PaleHoseGeorge
05-18-2005, 11:10 PM
Oh and might as well throw this at PK while we are at it...

He would probably swing and miss.

Okay that was mean.
:tongue:

Here's what else is mean...

:hawk
"Paulie juuuust missed it."

voodoochile
05-18-2005, 11:10 PM
:hawk

How the hell did he hit into a double play with a tomato? Mercy!! :o:

:roflmao::rolling:

Daver
05-18-2005, 11:11 PM
:hawk

How the hell did he hit into a double play with a tomato? Mercy!! :o:

Juiced tomato.

voodoochile
05-18-2005, 11:15 PM
Juiced tomato.

You know when I was a kid a good tomato was soft. You could barely squeeze one before the seeds and juice were running all down your arm and over your shoes.

Today's tomatoes are much harder. You can bounce them off the table all day and they'll just glare at you. No shock that a guy can knock one of these newer tomatoes 80-90 feet and have it still be bouncing along pretty as you please when it gets to the SS.

It's not Paulie's fault. They changed the tomatoes...

:walnuts
"I was a victim of soicumstances... nyuk nyuk nyuk..."

FarWestChicago
05-18-2005, 11:16 PM
You know when I was a kid a good tomato was soft. You could barely squeeze one before the seeds and juice were running all down your arm and over your shoes.

Today's tomatoes are much harder. You can bounce them off the table all day and they'll just glare at you. No shock that a guy can knock one of these newer tomatoes 80-90 feet and have it still be bouncing along pretty as you please when it gets to the SS.

It's not Paulie's fault. They changed the tomatoes...

:walnuts
"I was a victim of soicumstances... nyuk nyuk nyuk...":DJ

I've heard things were differen't when you played Hawk. The tomato was juicier and had more flavor.

Frater Perdurabo
05-19-2005, 09:13 AM
Few things would make me happier than Paulie replicating his 2004 numbers in 2005. Why? Because if he did, he and Frank would key a powerful offense that would complement the vibrant starting rotation, solid bullpen and a decent defense and likely would result in 95+ victories and a deep playoff push. Anyone who doesn't want that isn't much of a Sox fan. Just because we don't think Paulie will succeed doesn't mean even the harshest of his critics doesn't want him to succeed. We just don't think it's likely, based on past performance.

To believe Paulie will replicate his 2004 totals this year is a triumph of hope over experience.
:rolleyes:

After this season KW may perceive he has to decide between re-signing Konerko or picking up Frank's option. If they decide they can only keep one, the choice is obvious based on each players' recent production. Barring a career-ending injury to Thomas, Frank must stay. If that means Konerko departs for free agent riches, so be it.

slavko
05-19-2005, 11:34 AM
Has anyone noticed that Paulie seems a bit faster running the bases? Seriously. (I also think that Joan Cusack looks almost good in the most recent USCellular commercials, so I could be delusional.)

maurice
05-19-2005, 12:45 PM
One reason PK has such a high GIDP ratio is because he takes a LOT of at bats historically with guys on base.

:?:
Lots of players take the same number of ABs (or even more) with RiSP and still manage to avoid GiDP. Konerko consistently fails in this regard, because he's slow and a very bad situational hitter. When you factor in his lack of range on D and inability to play a key defensive position, it adds up to the polar opposite of a prototypical Ozzie-ball player.

Moreover, lack of protection does not cause him to swing and miss a belt-high fastball, or to hit a hanger 20 rows deep but 20 feet foul. Derrek Lee has done just fine with zero protection. Konerko has just been in another funk that is typical of his career. He'll bust out of it soooner or later (hopefully yesterday) . . . and then fall back into it . . . and then bust out of it . . . etc., ad infinitum.

A major problem is that, as a one-dimensional, non-Ozzie-ball player, Konerko doesn't find other ways to help the team when he's slumping. (In fact, his GiDPs hurt much worse than a guy who simply Ks.) As rough as we've been on Crede, at least he still saves runs on D.

I don't see KW paying big bucks to keep a square peg like Konerko on a team designed for round holes.

jackbrohamer
05-19-2005, 12:54 PM
Has anyone noticed that Paulie seems a bit faster running the bases? Seriously. (I also think that Joan Cusack looks almost good in the most recent USCellular commercials, so I could be delusional.)

He hit a ball off the left-field wall yesterday & was held to a single. I've seen 2 different infielders kick a grounder & still throw him out at first base, though admittedly not this year.

As long as he plays, there will be 1 professional athlete who runs slower than me! :bandance:

JB98
05-19-2005, 04:59 PM
:?:
Lots of players take the same number of ABs (or even more) with RiSP and still manage to avoid GiDP. Konerko consistently fails in this regard, because he's slow and a very bad situational hitter. When you factor in his lack of range on D and inability to play a key defensive position, it adds up to the polar opposite of a prototypical Ozzie-ball player.

Moreover, lack of protection does not cause him to swing and miss a belt-high fastball, or to hit a hanger 20 rows deep but 20 feet foul. Derrek Lee has done just fine with zero protection. Konerko has just been in another funk that is typical of his career. He'll bust out of it soooner or later (hopefully yesterday) . . . and then fall back into it . . . and then bust out of it . . . etc., ad infinitum.

A major problem is that, as a one-dimensional, non-Ozzie-ball player, Konerko doesn't find other ways to help the team when he's slumping. (In fact, his GiDPs hurt much worse than a guy who simply Ks.) As rough as we've been on Crede, at least he still saves runs on D.

I don't see KW paying big bucks to keep a square peg like Konerko on a team designed for round holes.

Konerko's OBP is .339. The Sox as a team have an OBP of .329. Paul leads the club in RBIs and is second only to Podsednik in runs scored. He still has contributed despite his poor batting average. He just hasn't contributed as much as he could or should.

PicktoCLick72
05-19-2005, 05:14 PM
WE could replace him with Dan Pasqua.

Bisco Stu
05-21-2005, 02:35 PM
Just for the record, I was never "on" PK's bandwagon. But I have been a harsh critic.


But after knocking in two runs against the Flubs to give us the lead just now, I'll admit I should back off PK, he has his value.

JB98
05-21-2005, 09:00 PM
Rabble, rabble, rabble, Rob Deer, blah, blah, blah....

Palpidious
05-21-2005, 09:02 PM
Rabble, rabble, rabble, Rob Deer, blah, blah, blah....

what's his average again?

JB98
05-21-2005, 09:32 PM
what's his average again?

.219 and rising. Still on pace for over 120 RBIs.
:cool:

Frater Perdurabo
05-21-2005, 10:10 PM
I'm so glad the Paulie-bashing PHG, Randar, West, maurice and I have dished out over the past week has made Paulie perform so well against the Cubs!
:tongue:

:bandance::supernana::bandance:

Now, if he could just do this consistently every other or every third game, the Sox would be set.

Ol' No. 2
05-21-2005, 10:20 PM
I'm so glad the Paulie-bashing PHG, Randar, West, maurice and I have dished out over the past week has made Paulie perform so well against the Cubs!
:tongue:

:bandance::supernana::bandance:

Now, if he could just do this consistently every other or every third game, the Sox would be set.
Who's your next target?:cool:

Frater Perdurabo
05-21-2005, 10:22 PM
Who's your next target?:cool:

Brandon McCarthy! He hasn't even won a MLB game, much less struck anybody out in a regular season game yet! Sheesh! :D:

JB98
05-21-2005, 10:31 PM
Who's your next target?:cool:

Crede got hot earlier this year immediately after the denizens of WSI tried to trade him. Even Dye is heating it up now.

I say we ruthlessly bash anyone and everyone who goes into even the slightest of slumps from here on out. Oh, wait. That's what we always do.
:D:

FarWestChicago
05-21-2005, 10:51 PM
I'm so glad the Paulie-bashing PHG, Randar, West, maurice and I have dished out over the past week has made Paulie perform so well against the Cubs!Hey, I didn't bash Wheels. I just said he didn't deserve elite first bagger pay in the future. :redneck

Jjav829
05-21-2005, 11:10 PM
Crede got hot earlier this year immediately after the denizens of WSI tried to trade him. Even Dye is heating it up now.

I say we ruthlessly bash anyone and everyone who goes into even the slightest of slumps from here on out. Oh, wait. That's what we always do.
:D:

Uribe's 3 for his last 27. Quick, someone start a trade/release/bench/shoot Uribe thread! I bet Ozuna wouldn't hit any 3 for 27 skids...:D:

shoota
05-21-2005, 11:12 PM
I think if they rotated the left field foul line about 5 degrees towards the stands, Konerko would be hitting about .479. Seems like just about every at bat he rockets one foul on down that way.


Hahah, this is true. I've noticed the same thing and made a similar comment to Sox friends. I said if the left field foul line was 2 feet to the left, Paulie would be hitting close to .300. He did it again today hitting one 2 feet left of the foul line with men on base, IIRC. I think it was the same at bat that he singled and scored the tying and go ahead run.

Go Paulie!

Ol' No. 2
05-21-2005, 11:13 PM
Uribe's 3 for his last 27. Quick, someone start a trade/release/bench/shoot Uribe thread! I bet Ozuna wouldn't hit any 3 for 27 skids...:D: My fault. I picked him up on my fantasy team. I'm also responsible for the nosedives of Brad Lidge, Brandon Lyon, Jason Lane and Carl Everett.

Jjav829
05-21-2005, 11:19 PM
My fault. I picked him up on my fantasy team. I'm also responsible for the nosedives of Brad Lidge, Brandon Lyon, Jason Lane and Carl Everett.

So you screwed me on Lyon, huh? I'm thinking I need to get rid of Konerko for him to heat up. In the WSI H2H league, I currently have 5 players on the DL, and possibly 6 soon if Mark Loretta's thumb injury is serious. Everyone else - short of Clint Barmes and Brady Clark - is struggling. I take full credit for Konerko's struggles. I'm also gonna go ahead and take credit for Dye's sudden resurgence. Ever since I got rid of his picture from my profile he has started to hit the ball hard. :D:

FarWestChicago
05-21-2005, 11:20 PM
I'm also gonna go ahead and take credit for Dye's sudden resurgence. Ever since I got rid of his picture from my profile he has started to hit the ball hard. :D: Oh, you definitely get that one. You got on Dye's case and balls started flying out of the yard. :cool:

Ol' No. 2
05-21-2005, 11:21 PM
So you screwed me on Lyon, huh? I'm thinking I need to get rid of Konerko for him to heat up. In the WSI H2H league, I currently have 5 players on the DL, and possibly 6 soon if Mark Loretta's thumb injury is serious. Everyone else - short of Clint Barmes and Brady Clark - is struggling. I take full credit for Konerko's struggles. I'm also gonna go ahead and take credit for Dye's sudden resurgence. Ever since I got rid of his picture from my profile he has started to hit the ball hard. :D: About the only guys who seem immune to me are Jason Varitek and Javy Vazquez.

chisox
05-22-2005, 03:37 PM
homer in the ninth...

illinibk
05-22-2005, 03:39 PM
homer in the ninth...
I still hate the guy. Consider me part of the Randar clan.

Frater Perdurabo
05-23-2005, 02:07 PM
Where's the Konerko bandwagon now?

Those who say he's a "great clubhouse guy" and essential to the team's "chemistry" don't have much to say today....

Jjav829
05-23-2005, 02:12 PM
Where's the Konerko bandwagon now?

Those who say he's a "great clubhouse guy" and essential to the team's "chemistry" don't have much to say today....

Well, FWIW, from Phil Rogers yesterday...

"We saw that last year with Maggs,"' Buehrle said. "Nobody was feeling very good about losing Maggs and those other guys. I'd like to have Konerko back. He's a great teammate, a great guy on the field. But it's a business decision. If he doesn't come back, Kenny will go out and replace him."

Guillen calls Konerko "my leader," and he certainly is showing why in this series.

KW also called Paulie "a class act" when he was on with Levine yesterday.

Link (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-0505220407may22,1,4335743.story)

We can argue it back and forth, but this is what Konerko's teammates and bosses say...

Flight #24
05-23-2005, 02:17 PM
Well, FWIW, from Phil Rogers yesterday...



KW also called Paulie "a class act" when he was on with Levine yesterday.

Link (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-0505220407may22,1,4335743.story)

We can argue it back and forth, but this is what Konerko's teammates and bosses say...

Question is - how many similar quotes can you find about Maggs & CLee prior to their being dealt. When asked directly about a guy, teammates & coaches & GMs are almost always going to say extremely supportive things. Doesn't mean they aren't true, but at least a grain of salt is likely appropriate.

Jjav829
05-23-2005, 02:29 PM
Question is - how many similar quotes can you find about Maggs & CLee prior to their being dealt. When asked directly about a guy, teammates & coaches & GMs are almost always going to say extremely supportive things. Doesn't mean they aren't true, but at least a grain of salt is likely appropriate.

Fair enough. But did Buehrle have to say Paulie is a great teammate? Couldn't he just as easily have said....

"Nobody was feeling very good about losing Maggs and those other guys. I'd like to have Konerko back. He's a great player. But it's a business decision. If he doesn't come back, Kenny will go out and replace him."

He didn't have to call Paulie a great teammate, though he did. I'm just saying....

maurice
05-23-2005, 02:33 PM
Buehrle also said that Nardi was a good pitching coach. Take it with a grain of salt.

Flight #24
05-23-2005, 02:34 PM
Fair enough. But did Buehrle have to say Paulie is a great teammate? Couldn't he just as easily have said....

"Nobody was feeling very good about losing Maggs and those other guys. I'd like to have Konerko back. He's a great player. But it's a business decision. If he doesn't come back, Kenny will go out and replace him."

He didn't have to call Paulie a great teammate, though he did. I'm just saying....

We'll never know unless/until he's no longer here. If we then hear "We had a guy here who ripped into teammates like they were his mother in law or something", well.....

Mickster
05-23-2005, 03:24 PM
We'll never know unless/until he's no longer here. If we then hear "We had a guy here who ripped into teammates like they were his mother in law or something", well.....

I'm sure Cowley already has the quotes in the can....

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2005, 03:34 PM
I'm sure Cowley already has the quotes in the can....

Boy, you got that right. Tailgunner Joe has the most complete index file of any of the beat reporters... just waiting for the right moment to piece it all together for the feeble-minded to believe.

AZChiSoxFan
05-23-2005, 04:55 PM
This is the big leagues. Results count.


Unless of course you are talking about leading your team in RBI and HR's last season and this season. In that case, results don't count.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2005, 05:02 PM
Unless of course you are talking about leading your team in RBI and HR's last season and this season. In that case, results don't count.

:?:

AZChiSoxFan
05-23-2005, 05:08 PM
First, he did hit with Frank and/or Magglio for over half the season.

Second, rbi's are largely a function of where you hit in the order because it's really helpful to your rbi totals if somebody is on base to be batted in.

Third, 41 home runs truly is an impressive number of home runs, until you realize nobody besides a DH stands around more than a firstbasemen which is why most teams get high power numbers from their firstbasemen. OPS's over 800 like Konerko's are hardly rare for firstbasemen.

Currently there are 176 ballplayers in MLB with a batting average higher than our clean up hitter's.

So I guess you would rather have any of those 176 players than PK? Get real. Listen, BA is far and away the most overrated stat in all of baseball. I would argue about PK's HR's and RBI, but you would counter with the crazy notion that run production is simply a matter of where you hit in the lineup. Yeah, I'm sure that if we put Widger in PK's place, he would have way more RBI than PK. Go ahead and blindly choose to ignore the HR's and RBI if you must. How about the fact that PK leads the team in walks, is second in runs scored and is second in OBP amongst the regular players? I can't wait to hear your "reasons" as to why those stats don't matter either.

balke
05-23-2005, 05:11 PM
Pk has hit the ball ever since he re-raised his hands in his stance. I see no reason to whine at the moment. He's not my favorite player in the world, but he's usually our top 3 best player on the team. I don't wanna overpay for him next season, but I want him here all season so we win.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-23-2005, 05:11 PM
....Go ahead and blindly choose to ignore the HR's and RBI if you must...

You know what you call the ballplayer who used to have the highest HR's and highest RBI totals on your team?

Your ex-clean up hitter.

As long as Konerko bats #4, I could care less how many dingers and rbi's he has while still flirting with the Mendoza Line. That's not results. That's ****.

Next.

:cool:

JB98
05-23-2005, 05:19 PM
You know what you call the ballplayer who used to have the highest HR's and highest RBI totals on your team?

Your ex-clean up hitter.

As long as Konerko bats #4, I could care less how many dingers and rbi's he has while still flirting with the Mendoza Line. That's not results. That's ****.

Next.

:cool:

Who do you suggest we put in the clean-up spot then? Dye? Everett? A.J.? We don't have anybody with a great batting average other that Iguchi, and he's obviously best suited as a table-setter.

AZChiSoxFan
05-23-2005, 05:24 PM
You know what you call the ballplayer who used to have the highest HR's and highest RBI totals on your team?

Your ex-clean up hitter.

As long as Konerko bats #4, I could care less how many dingers and rbi's he has while still flirting with the Mendoza Line. That's not results. That's ****.

Next.

:cool:

So I guess that means you have no comment on the walks, runs scored and OBP???

maurice
05-23-2005, 05:39 PM
You want to talk about stats other than HR and RBI? Okay, here they are . . .
.227 AVE
.210 w/ runners on
.222 w/ RiSP
.156 w/ RiSP & 2 out
37 K (most on the Sox),
26 BB (12th in MLB)
.348 OBP (77th)
.468 SLG (65th)
.815 OPS (66th)
24 R (53rd)
4 2B (229th)
0 3B (tie last place)
0 SB (tie last place)

Given the RiSP numbers, the RBI are a result of the success of Pod and Tad. Even a struggling Everett had big RBI numbers when he was hitting behind those 2 guys. The rest of the numbers don't look anything like a player earning his $8+ mil/year.

NorthlakeTom
05-23-2005, 05:51 PM
Given the RiSP numbers, the RBI are a result of the success of Pod and Tad. Even a struggling Everett had big RBI numbers when he was hitting behind those 2 guys. The rest of the numbers don't look anything like a player earning his $8+ mil/year.
The RISP avg is virtually the same as his ba, so that's neither a positive nor a negative.

He's hitting .450 in his last five games, so everything points to being out of the slump.

You're right about the salary, but that's a different discussion, AFAIC.

All in all, he is paid to drive in runs. He is succeeding in that, regardless of how he does it. I'd love to see him hit .300, but if he can drive in 100+ while hitting .220, who cares?

maurice
05-23-2005, 05:54 PM
I'm 90% certain that he'll come out of his slump firing, but some folks like to make lame excuses and pretend that he hasn't been in a slump 'cause they think he's a swell guy. That's daft. He's alternated hot and cold stretches his entire career with the Sox.

It's true that he's paid to drive in runs, and he's been tremedously bad in that respect (.222 w/ RiSP; .156 w/ RiSP & 2 out). The evidence proves that he simply gets an absurd number of opportunities w/ RiSP because of the success of Pod and Tad.

NorthlakeTom
05-23-2005, 05:58 PM
I'm 90% certain that he'll come out of his slump firing, but please some folks like to make lame excuses and pretend that he hasn't been in a slump 'cause they think he's a swell guy. He's alternated hot and cold stretches his entire career with the Sox.
True, but just because he's a streaky player doesn't mean he's not valuable.

33 RBIs isn't an excuse. It's a fact. And I have no idea what your "swell guy" comment means. I certainly don't consider his personality in assessing his performance.

maurice
05-23-2005, 06:01 PM
True, but just because he's a streaky player doesn't mean he's not valuable.

No, it means he's less valuable than a consistent player.

33 RBIs isn't an excuse. It's a fact.

.222 w/ RiSP; .156 w/ RiSP & 2 out also = facts.

And I have no idea what your "swell guy" comment means.

Read some of the other pro-Konerko posts on this board. It's really obvious.

NorthlakeTom
05-23-2005, 06:10 PM
No, it means he's less valuable than a consistent player.



.222 w/ RiSP; .156 w/ RiSP & 2 out also = facts.



Read some of the other pro-Konerko posts on this board. It's really obvious.
I don't doubt that there are people as you claim, but I'm not one of them.

I don't disagree with your statements, but he has been hitting lately. His RISP avg is irrelevant, IMO. He's hitting the same with or without RISP. The fact that he's driving them in (along with himself 11 times), is far more important.

I'd like to see more consistency out of the entire lineup. Name one player who has been consistent from day one? Even Iguchi is in a mild slump (.242 going back to the Baltimore series).

Randar68
05-23-2005, 07:58 PM
Go ahead and rant and rave. It doesn't really bother me, but I personally think it's just too damned soon to make this decision...

The past 4-5 years tell me otherwise. He's been on-and-off and inconsistent for far too long. I'm sorry, but Barry Bonds, Frank, Manny Ramirez, Maggs/CLee, Giambi, etc etc...

Where are their GIDP? Konerko has one of the highest GIDP/AB ratios IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL!

Maybe you should read that a few more times to really get the full effect of his suckitude, LOL!

voodoochile
05-23-2005, 08:04 PM
The past 4-5 years tell me otherwise. He's been on-and-off and inconsistent for far too long. I'm sorry, but Barry Bonds, Frank, Manny Ramirez, Maggs/CLee, Giambi, etc etc...

Where are their GIDP? Konerko has one of the highest GIDP/AB ratios IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL!

Maybe you should read that a few more times to really get the full effect of his suckitude, LOL!

Look, I am not one who wants to pay PK huge money. I just don't think he should be traded when he is one of the few people on the team driving in runs at present.

I think the offer should be in line with his production and we should wait and see how that is in August, September, October and on into the fall. The Sox can always offer arbitration if push comes to shove.

Let's break down this amazing GIDP stat. In his worst year, he managed to have 37 GIDP. It wasn't nearly that bad in any of the years surrounding that one and this year, I think he has 5 or less.

So, let's say he averages 25 GIDP a year for the rest of his career. That's one every 6.5 games roughly - or one extra out per week. This can hardly be considered something that will break a teams back. So again, please don't throw silly stats around like they are some incredible thing. I ain't buying what you are selling...

balke
05-23-2005, 08:18 PM
Konerko's not good. He's not a clean-up at least. I love him as a #5.


That being said, I never want to see Helton's salary associated with my team. That's ridiculous. I'd only pay that for Tejada or possibly the guy who's already making that kind of loot in NY.

I can't believe Randar is complaining about how much someone on our team makes. Isn't he the one that always wants Jerry to buy up the 20 million dollar men? I'll take Konerko for now. Breaking your teams payroll for a slumping 1B just after steroids, when you have a sufficient slumping one doesn't make sense. Especially when you more than double the salary.

Randar68
05-23-2005, 08:25 PM
So, let's say he averages 25 GIDP a year for the rest of his career. That's one every 6.5 games roughly - or one extra out per week. This can hardly be considered something that will break a teams back. So again, please don't throw silly stats around like they are some incredible thing. I ain't buying what you are selling...

I am not going to rehash the half-season stats of "The Amazing Half Season Baseball Player"...

They are obvious if you'd care to look. We've rehashed them over and over, so I'm not going to repost them. Konerko has had 1 great year, one TERRIBLE year, and all the rest of his seasons have been of the half-great, half-crap variety. Here we are again going through the same thing AGAIN. I'm through with Pauly...

Randar68
05-23-2005, 08:30 PM
Konerko's not good. He's not a clean-up at least. I love him as a #5.


That being said, I never want to see Helton's salary associated with my team. That's ridiculous. I'd only pay that for Tejada or possibly the guy who's already making that kind of loot in NY.

I can't believe Randar is complaining about how much someone on our team makes. Isn't he the one that always wants Jerry to buy up the 20 million dollar men? I'll take Konerko for now. Breaking your teams payroll for a slumping 1B just after steroids, when you have a sufficient slumping one doesn't make sense. Especially when you more than double the salary.

Complaining about how much he makes? I just wouldn't resign a guy who you can't depend on. Whatever you want to do with him is fine. No, I absolutely do not want to buy up all the 20 million dollar men, no clue where you pulled that gem out of (although I have an inkling it was somewhere south of the equator). I didn't want to resign Maggs for anything more than 12 million even if he was 100% healthy. That said, Helton is a FAR better player than Maggs, Konerko, anyone else on the Sox.

Maybe you should look up Helton's contract. You wouldn't pay that for Albert Pujols? You're out of you melon.

Again, I wouldn't trade for Helton unless Colorado was willing to eat considerable salary. And before you say, "they wouldn't do that", while I'm sure they'd prefer not to, they will in the end. ARod and Mike Hampton deals both had teams eating huge chunks of salary, and IIRC, overall, 50+ million of Hampton's salary was paid for by other teams.

Randar68
05-23-2005, 08:33 PM
Breaking your teams payroll for a slumping 1B just after steroids, when you have a sufficient slumping one doesn't make sense.

Maybe I should also comment that this has got to be the dumbest sentence in this entire thread.

Helton is hitting .301 with a .438 OBP and a .942 OPS... you're right, for him, that is slumping...:D:

balke
05-23-2005, 08:41 PM
Maybe I should also comment that this has got to be the dumbest sentence in this entire thread.


Helton ain't worth the money, and the idea of trading Konerko and his salary with Dye and his salary and "prospects" for Helton and cash back, or whatever cracked out pipe dream you have floating around in your head was the dumbest idea ever. Almost as bad as Derek Lee for Shingo.

Maybe we can ship out that dirty player Uribe for A-Rod, i know the Yankees wanna eat half his salary too.

I'm pretty sure you're the poster who always whines about our payroll not being high enough, and highest salary relating to championships won and yada yada yada. If not, no big deal. We're never getting Helton, and frankly we don't need him. Paulie seemed to fix his swing, Frank will be here shortly. I don't want Paulie back for more than 7 mil, and would hope for a 4-6 number. And i'd rather not worry about it til next year seeing how we are winning with Paulie RIGHT NOW.

Randar68
05-23-2005, 08:48 PM
I'm pretty sure you're the poster who always whines about our payroll not being high enough, and highest salary relating to championships won and yada yada yada. If not, no big deal. We're never getting Helton, and frankly we don't need him. Paulie seemed to fix his swing, Frank will be here shortly.

LOL. Guess what, wrong again. Lip and Hangar have done that pretty consistently, you are dead square wrong if you think I have made those posts, but keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better...

What do you see Colorado getting for Todd Helton when they trade him during this season? Have you followed what people have done in trades the past few years when dealing with big contracts?

Konerko is an expiring contract who they can resign or let walk for possible draft picks. Dye's contract is up after next season (although they can't trade him until mid June or July (IIRC) because he was signed this offseason). That, in-effect, is taking cash off our hands. Add in 25-30 million in cash and a couple mid-to-high level prospects (anyone but McCarthy, Sweeney, Anderson, Young and Gio) and you have yourself a possible deal. That basically gives us 13 million in salary + 25-30 million in cash, making Helton's salary average out to more like 13-14 million a year over the length of his deal.

This gives Colorado 70 million dollars to spend to build around their younger players and spend on pitching that they don't have today. This is absolutely not out of the norm for teams in this day and age.

Chisox003
05-23-2005, 08:56 PM
Randar, there is no possible way this deal is happening....

KW would never trade Dye after he came here for less money than he was offered from other teams, plus the whole point of this team is defense, speed, and pitching....

By taking Dye out and replacing him with Im assuming Everett, our defense is severely weakened....In case you havent seen Crazy Carl play OF this season yet, its a joke!

This deal isnt happening! Give it up!

Randar68
05-23-2005, 08:57 PM
Randar, there is no possible way this deal is happening....

KW would never trade Dye after he came here for less money than he was offered from other teams, plus the whole point of this team is defense, speed, and pitching....

By taking Dye out and replacing him with Im assuming Everett, our defense is severely weakened....In case you havent seen Crazy Carl play OF this season yet, its a joke!

This deal isnt happening! Give it up!

That's what you get for ass/u/me'ing. I'd replace Dye with Brian Anderson, but this idea came before Dye got hot the last few days. Anderson is a far better OF'er than Dye or Carl.

Your first point has a lot of validity to it, but I'd rather do it for Dye than to give up a guy like Anderson to get more cash out of it. I don't understand how winning games should preclude you from looking for ways to make your team better. Putting Helton behind Pods/Iguchi makes this entire order EXTREMELY more dangerous, especially when Frank comes back, not to mention the benefits of adding in another LH'd bat. It perhaps should all be in deeppink, but if I'm Kenny, this is the #1 deal I'm looking at pursuing midseason this year.

Konerko is the antithesis of an Ozzie-ball player, Helton is taylor-made (still huge upgrade in that area)... contact, OBP, high average, still decent power, better defense than Pauly...

Chisox003
05-23-2005, 09:00 PM
That's what you get for ass/u/me'ing. I'd replace Dye with Brian Anderson, but this idea came before Dye got hot the last few days. Anderson is a far better OF'er than Dye or Carl.

Ok, so we trade Dye and Konerko for Helton...

Then, we throw a rookie outfielder into the starting lineup in the middle of a pennant race?

This is crazy......Or do you have another deal to bring Ichiro hidden up your sleeve?

:rolleyes:

Randar68
05-23-2005, 09:03 PM
Ok, so we trade Dye and Konerko for Helton...

Then, we throw a rookie outfielder into the starting lineup in the middle of a pennant race?

This is crazy......Or do you have another deal to bring Ichiro here hidden up or sleeve?

Uhhh, You have Everett as well as an insurance policy, but you also have a guy who is more valuable than Dye+Konerko combined, not sure why you choose to leave that part out...

I also happen to believe that Anderson is a hell of a player who is ready whenever we need him. Again, I'd take Helton+Anderson over Dye+Konerko (about equivalent total salary ironically) 7 days a week and twice on Sunday. You telling me Anderson isn't going to hit .220? GMAB!

balke
05-23-2005, 09:05 PM
LOL. Guess what, wrong again. Lip and Hangar have done that pretty consistently, you are dead square wrong if you think I have made those posts, but keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better...

What do you see Colorado getting for Todd Helton when they trade him during this season? Have you followed what people have done in trades the past few years when dealing with big contracts?

Konerko is an expiring contract who they can resign or let walk for possible draft picks. Dye's contract is up after next season (although they can't trade him until mid June or July (IIRC) because he was signed this offseason). That, in-effect, is taking cash off our hands. Add in 25-30 million in cash and a couple mid-to-high level prospects (anyone but McCarthy, Sweeney, Anderson, Young and Gio) and you have yourself a possible deal. That basically gives us 13 million in salary + 25-30 million in cash, making Helton's salary average out to more like 13-14 million a year over the length of his deal.

This gives Colorado 70 million dollars to spend to build around their younger players and spend on pitching that they don't have today. This is absolutely not out of the norm for teams in this day and age.


Oh yeah, that is Lip. Sorry.

I'm all for the trade, let's go do it.

Chisox003
05-23-2005, 09:08 PM
Uhhh, You have Everett as well as an insurance policy, but you also have a guy who is more valuable than Dye+Konerko combined, not sure why you choose to leave that part out...

I also happen to believe that Anderson is a hell of a player who is ready whenever we need him. Again, I'd take Helton+Anderson over Dye+Konerko (about equivalent total salary ironically) 7 days a week and twice on Sunday. You telling me Anderson isn't going to hit .220? GMAB!

In a month, if both Konerko and Dye are still hitting .220, you might have something

The fact that the Sox are 31-13 with them doing extremely poor is amazing, and now that theyre heating up, with Frank coming back, there's no need to make this trade

Plus, I realize Helton is a great player and everything, but we really dont know for sure what kind of numbers he will put up outside of Colorado....I realize that he only plays 81 games/year there, but you can't say that his numbers wont decline once he plays an entire year away from there....

Youve made your opinion clear....Dye+Konerko isnt as valuable as Helton blah blah blah....Its not happening, but keep trying

....Our first place team is on riiiiiiight....now
I Gone!

Randar68
05-23-2005, 09:14 PM
In a month, if both Konerko and Dye are still hitting .220, you might have something

The fact that the Sox are 31-13 with them doing extremely poor is amazing, and now that theyre heating up, with Frank coming back, there's no need to make this trade

Plus, I realize Helton is a great player and everything, but we really dont know for sure what kind of numbers he will put up outside of Colorado....I realize that he only plays 81 games/year there, but you can't say that his numbers wont decline once he plays an entire year away from there....

Youve made your opinion clear....Dye+Konerko isnt as valuable as Helton blah blah blah....Its not happening, but keep trying

Let me make one last point. You might want to look up Helton's career splits Home/Away, I think you'll be a bit shocked. Power is a bit less, but his OBP is still miles above anyone on our team and he still hits for a VERY high average. It's also not like USCF isn't a great hitters park.

Chisox003
05-23-2005, 09:17 PM
Let me make one last point. You might want to look up Helton's career splits Home/Away, I think you'll be a bit shocked. Power is a bit less, but his OBP is still miles above anyone on our team and he still hits for a VERY high average. It's also not like USCF isn't a great hitters park.

Yes, I know that, thats why I said he's still a great hitter even outside of Coors...

It doesnt matter though! There is absolutely no chance of this trade happening, so its pointless to keep arguing about it

Id rather just support Paulie and Dye for the remainder of the season, and hope that they start hitting like they have in the past

Randar68
05-23-2005, 09:20 PM
Id rather just support Paulie and Dye for the remainder of the season, and hope that they start hitting like they have in the past

Well, unfortunately for all of us, they are... Konerko's in his "bad half", and Dye hasn't done much in the past couple years...

Hope is just that... hope. I'd rather have the sure thing if I could...

Todd Helton will be traded in the next 12 months. I see no reason the Sox shouldn't be part of the discussions...

NorthlakeTom
05-23-2005, 09:22 PM
In May, Dye is .302/.353/.698

I'd say he's out of his slump.

Randar68
05-23-2005, 09:23 PM
In May, Dye is .302/.353/.698

I'd say he's out of his slump.

Yep, he was the most dangerous hitter in the ballpark yesterday, on either team, was just blistering the ball.

Again, I think a lot of his slumping the last couple years is injury and Oakland issues, of course I hope he returns to his KC form and stays there...

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 11:32 AM
The past 4-5 years tell me otherwise. He's been on-and-off and inconsistent for far too long. I'm sorry, but Barry Bonds, Frank, Manny Ramirez, Maggs/CLee, Giambi, etc etc...

Where are their GIDP? Konerko has one of the highest GIDP/AB ratios IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL!




You didn't seriously mean to include Giambi in that list did you? If you did, then I have a question for you. Which Giambi? I have to ask because I don't know which Giambi is even the better player.

Flight #24
05-24-2005, 11:44 AM
Yes, I know that, thats why I said he's still a great hitter even outside of Coors...

It doesnt matter though! There is absolutely no chance of this trade happening, so its pointless to keep arguing about it

Id rather just support Paulie and Dye for the remainder of the season, and hope that they start hitting like they have in the past

For reference, prior to last season, you probably could have gotten the Red Sox to trade Manny Ramirez for Paul Konerko. How do you know that - because they were willing to give him away for free, and put him on waivers! Even the best player in the game (at the time), ARod was going to be dealt along with cash to the Red Sox for a far inferior player in Soriano (who ironically, the Rangers are considering dealing to avoid paying a large salary to!).

I guarantee you that the primary goal of the Rockies is figuring out how to trade Helton to give them salary flexibility. And they have some experience, having done it with Hampton. There are rumors that they're considering trading him to the Orioles for spare parts, who are willing to assume the entire deal. The question is whether or not they'd give up a significant chunk of cash in exchange for some good prospects (unlike Randar, I'd include Sweeney but not Anderson/BMac) and/or some decent veterans or the picks from letting them go (Konerko, Dye).

It's still highly unlikely, but the Rocks are almost certainly trying to do something like this. It's a matter of whether JR & KW think they can absorb some of that salary and then if they can find a common ground on the talent/cash tradeoff. No one's worth Helton's contract, but if the Sox can get him at say $12-14mil/yr, Todd is a great enough hitter to be worth that.

Randar68
05-24-2005, 11:49 AM
You didn't seriously mean to include Giambi in that list did you? If you did, then I have a question for you. Which Giambi? I have to ask because I don't know which Giambi is even the better player.

The one on the Yankees and A's circa Roids... He was one of the most dangerous hitters during that period of time at Konerko's position, and he had some great hitters around/in-front of him and how many GIDP's did he have compared to Pauly?

maurice
05-24-2005, 12:49 PM
Everybody agrees that Konerko is paid to drive in runs. In light of this undisputed fact, it is illogical to say that his AVE w/ RiSP is irrelevant. It's a very good measure of how well he's doing his job. So far this year, he's done it very, very badly.

NorthlakeTom
05-24-2005, 01:08 PM
Everybody agrees that Konerko is paid to drive in runs. In light of this undisputed fact, it is illogical to say that his AVE w/ RiSP is irrelevant. It's a very good measure of how well he's doing his job. So far this year, he's done it very, very badly.
If his BA were .300 and his avg w/RISP were .200, you would be correct.

However, both stats are virtually the same (.227/.222 IIRC), so there is no case to be made.

maurice
05-24-2005, 01:12 PM
That's daft. The fact that he sucks without RiSP does not disprove the fact that he also sucks with RiSP. It just proves that he has sucked pretty much all of the time = not doing his job = a bad thing.

wdelaney72
05-24-2005, 01:13 PM
I don't want anything done with Konerko until the season is over. I like Paulie, but I don't believe he's earning his current salary.

voodoochile
05-24-2005, 01:31 PM
That's daft. The fact that he sucks without RiSP does not disprove the fact that he also sucks with RiSP. It just proves that he has sucked pretty much all of the time = not doing his job = a bad thing.

Thank you... I love it when people try to justify one crappy stat by pointing at another crappy stat... Crappy stats are crappy stats and nothing can change that. So he is equally crappy with or without RISP. All that says is that he has a crappy batting average. In short, it's a crappy excuse...:o:

NorthlakeTom
05-24-2005, 01:47 PM
Thank you... I love it when people try to justify one crappy stat by pointing at another crappy stat... Crappy stats are crappy stats and nothing can change that. So he is equally crappy with or without RISP. All that says is that he has a crappy batting average. In short, it's a crappy excuse...:o:
Who's justifying anything?

You are making my case right here. He's hitting equally bad with or without RISP. That's the point. If he were hitting .300 w/RISP while batting .200, that would probably be acceptable. The opposite would not.

He's hitting the same either way. It's a wash. There is no comparison to be made between the two stats. They are equally bad, as you state. So, it is pointless to raise the issue of BA w/RISP. It's neither a positive nor a negative in comparison to his overall BA.

Flight #24
05-24-2005, 01:53 PM
Who's justifying anything?

You are making my case right here. He's hitting equally bad with or without RISP. That's the point. If he were hitting .300 w/RISP while batting .200, that would probably be acceptable. The opposite would not.

He's hitting the same either way. It's a wash. There is no comparison to be made between the two stats. They are equally bad, as you state. So, it is pointless to raise the issue of BA w/RISP. It's neither a positive nor a negative in comparison to his overall BA.

The point is that there's many making the argument that "despite his BA, he's productive", which is BS. Were he hitting .300 with RISP such an argument might be made, but when he's hitting .200 in all permutations of average, that's just plain bad. Yeah, he's got a lot of RBIs - but hitting .220 with RISP shows that it's mostly due to the guys being on base for him a ton.

voodoochile
05-24-2005, 01:58 PM
The point is that there's many making the argument that "despite his BA, he's productive", which is BS. Were he hitting .300 with RISP such an argument might be made, but when he's hitting .200 in all permutations of average, that's just plain bad. Yeah, he's got a lot of RBIs - but hitting .220 with RISP shows that it's mostly due to the guys being on base for him a ton.

Well, to some extent (in a relative sense) PK is being productive - at least as prodcutive as anyone else on the team not named Iguchi or Podsednik.

The Sox don't have a legitimate substitute for PK in the 4 hole right now. So they might as well leave him there for the time being.

NorthlakeTom
05-24-2005, 02:03 PM
The point is that there's many making the argument that "despite his BA, he's productive", which is BS. Were he hitting .300 with RISP such an argument might be made, but when he's hitting .200 in all permutations of average, that's just plain bad. Yeah, he's got a lot of RBIs - but hitting .220 with RISP shows that it's mostly due to the guys being on base for him a ton.
I agree with this, but we all know what his BA is. Unless his avg w/RISP deviates from his overall average, I don't see the point in mentioning it. Sure, it's worth looking at, but all it shows is consistency. Consistent failure perhaps, but consistency nonetheless. That's all I'm saying here. I'm not defending nor criticizing Konerko. I'm questioning the reasoning behind comparing two stats which are consistent.

If the point is to show that he hasn't done any better in critical situations, then point taken, but he hasn't done any worse than his average either. As I stated above, we all know what that average is.

Flight #24
05-24-2005, 02:09 PM
Well, to some extent (in a relative sense) PK is being productive - at least as prodcutive as anyone else on the team not named Iguchi or Podsednik.

The Sox don't have a legitimate substitute for PK in the 4 hole right now. So they might as well leave him there for the time being.

You're right, but unless he significantly improves, I believe you can get similar RBI totals from a number of other hitters without paying anywhere close to $8mil. The lack of hitting with RISP leads me to believe that. Being the most productive guy on the team seems largely to mean "getting to hit behind Podsednik and Iguchi". Imagine how productive a guy who did that and hit .300 would be?

Paulwny
05-24-2005, 02:17 PM
I agree with this, but we all know what his BA is. Unless his avg w/RISP deviates from his overall average, I don't see the point in mentioning it. Sure, it's worth looking at, but all it shows is consistency. Consistent failure perhaps, but consistency nonetheless. That's all I'm saying here. I'm not defending nor criticizing Konerko. I'm questioning the reasoning behind comparing two stats which are consistent.

If the point is to show that he hasn't done any better in critical situations, then point taken, but he hasn't done any worse than his average either. As I stated above, we all know what that average is.

PK defenders have criticized others who have brought up PK's ba, saying look at his rbi total, ba is overrated This is when the anti-PK group brought up the risp ba, just as bad and not a meaningless stat. With a higher risp ba he'd have more rbi's and the sox may have a few more wins.

maurice
05-24-2005, 04:01 PM
Nobody is "comparing" anything. The point is that virtually all of his stats suck and that his RBI total is extremely misleading.

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 04:45 PM
The point is that there's many making the argument that "despite his BA, he's productive", which is BS. Were he hitting .300 with RISP such an argument might be made, but when he's hitting .200 in all permutations of average, that's just plain bad. Yeah, he's got a lot of RBIs - but hitting .220 with RISP shows that it's mostly due to the guys being on base for him a ton.

But aren't all RBI (except for solo homers) due to players being on base in front of you?? You could make the same argument for any player in the majors with good RBI numbers.

maurice
05-24-2005, 04:51 PM
It stands to reason that a player who (for example) drives in 100 runs while batting .220 w/ RiSP would have driven in significantly more runs had he batted .300 w/ RiSP. It would be incorrect to call that hypothetical player a good run producer just because he drove in 100 runs. On the contrary, the player actually would be a bad run producer who benefitted disproportionately from the good hitters in front of him. A good run producer could have driven in 150 runs or more under identical cirumstances.

Flight #24
05-24-2005, 04:51 PM
But aren't all RBI (except for solo homers) due to players being on base in front of you?? You could make the same argument for any player in the majors with good RBI numbers.

RBIs are a factor of 2 things: 1)Guys on base in front of you and 2)your performance with guys on base (or HR). You're right in that #1 is a factor for all players. My point is that when you're hitting .220 with RISP, then your RBI totals are due almost exclusively to factor #1.

Put another way, the guys in front of Paul are doing well enough that you could take a league average player and get similar RBI totals. It's not a knock on Paulie as much as it is an attempt to show that he's a good but not great player. I.e. not worth his current $8mil salary and certainly not worth an extension at the same or higher salary.

voodoochile
05-24-2005, 05:02 PM
It stands to reason that a player who (for example) drives in 100 runs while batting .220 w/ RiSP would have driven in significantly more runs had he batted .300 w/ RiSP. It would be incorrect to call that hypothetical player a good run producer just because he drove in 100 runs. On the contrary, the player actually would be a bad run producer who benefitted disproportionately from the good hitters in front of him. A good run producer could have driven in 150 runs or more under identical cirumstances.

PK has 55 AB with RISP so far this season. So assuming that is an accurate split, he will finish the year at 220 AB with RISP.

.220*220 = 48 hits

.300*220 = 66 hits

So far his 12 hits have generated 23 RBI or roughly 2 RBI/hit with RISP.

Provided that holds true, over the course of a season that would mean an extra 36 RBI. That's a pretty fat number.

Just thought I'd take a look at what it actually means...

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 05:18 PM
Provided that holds true, over the course of a season that would mean an extra 36 RBI. That's a pretty fat number.

Just thought I'd take a look at what it actually means...

Nice job. I'll only further note that a .300 average and another 36 rbi's would make Paul Konerko into a league MVP candidate, a full season far better than anything even Magglio Ordonez ever accomplished. These are also the sort of numbers we Sox Fans just came to take for granted from Frank Thomas, too.

Of course Paul Konerko is no kind of MVP precisely because he slumps too often and too long to ever put together 162 games. He's not Frank Thomas. He's not Magglio Ordonez. He's not even Carlos Lee. Any of these hitters would be putting up even better HR and RBI numbers than Konehead given similar opportunities.

Konerko is their match in only one category: salary.

ExpoPuddingHead
05-24-2005, 05:24 PM
I was just thinking about what you said about carlos lee. The main difference is position. You can stick a terrible fielder at first base and not suffer the consequences but a bad outfielder could screw you. I've noticed watching whitesox games that putting pods in the outfield has actually saved at least three games. The most recent was saturdays cubs game. There was a double down the line that pods caught that Lee never would have gotten to and that would have given the cubs the game. BTW Lee is another player with huge hot streaks i bet nobody was thinking Lee was better than Konerko in April.

voodoochile
05-24-2005, 05:27 PM
I was just thinking about what you said about carlos lee. The main difference is position. You can stick a terrible fielder at first base and not suffer the consequences but a bad outfielder could screw you. I've noticed watching whitesox games that putting pods in the outfield has actually saved at least three games. The most recent was saturdays cubs game. There was a double down the line that pods caught that Lee never would have gotten to and that would have given the cubs the game. BTW Lee is another player with huge hot streaks i bet nobody was thinking Lee was better than Konerko in April.

There was talk of moving Lee to 1B eventually. If PK got traded for Pods and Vizcaino, you can bet that's exactly what would have happened.

maurice
05-24-2005, 05:28 PM
The position comparison favors Lee over Konerko. Lee can play LF or 1B. Konerko is so slow that he can barely play 1B. (While many aspects of his D are good, his range is horrible.)

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 05:29 PM
i bet nobody was thinking Lee was better than Konerko in April.

You bet wrong. I sure did, and so did the Anaheim Angels and Arizona Diamondbacks (who Kenny failed to peddle Konerko to) and Milwaukee, too (who Kenny failed to peddle Konerko to, but got them to bite on Lee).

Just so you know, left fielders are far more valuable than firstbasemen, especially slow-footed firstbasemen.

You're welcome.
:cool:

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 05:35 PM
You bet wrong. I sure did, and so did the Anaheim Angels and Arizona Diamondbacks (who Kenny failed to peddle Konerko to) and Milwaukee, too (who Kenny failed to peddle Konerko to, but got them to bite on Lee).

Just so you know, left fielders are far more valuable than firstbasemen, especially slow-footed firstbasemen.

You're welcome.
:cool:

I think the fact that Randy Johnson stated he would only go to the Yanks had just a little bit to do with the fact that the Konerko to AZ trade never went through. Pitching wins and AZ got two starting pitchers in return for RJ, both of whom have contributed to their surprising early season success this year.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 05:41 PM
I think the fact that Randy Johnson stated he would only go to the Yanks had just a little bit to do with the fact that the Konerko to AZ trade never went through. Pitching wins and AZ got two starting pitchers in return for RJ, both of whom have contributed to their surprising early season success this year.

It is widely known (and widely reported) that Williams was peddling Konerko right through the December winter meetings. Believe me, if Kenny could have gotten anything of value for Paul Konerko we wouldn't have two 200 posts threads calling him out for being near worthless for his salary... if not for his slumps than certainly for behaving like a clubhouse cancer.
:cool:

One thing is beyond dispute: Carlos Lee was not the guy Kenny wanted to trade, but to get Podsednik he needed to make El Caballo available. It was Konerko who he couldn't move.

Like an Edsel.
:wink:

MRKARNO
05-24-2005, 05:43 PM
One thing is beyond dispute: Carlos Lee was not the guy Kenny wanted to trade, but to get Podsednik he needed to make El Caballo available. It was Konerko who he couldn't move.

Like an Edsel.
:wink:

And it was more than just getting Podsednik. He had to unload either Lee or Konerko because their skill sets were not that different and he wanted to spread around the money from one of their contracts. Lee's deal was longer (potentially) because of his '06 option. He was the one traded because he had more trade value, not because we wanted to keep PK more.

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 05:45 PM
You're right, but unless he significantly improves

And what leads you to think he won't?? His career BA coming into this season is .278. In 6 career seasons with the Sox, he's hit .277 or better 5 times. He had a long slump to start the season but is already back up to .234. He's had his yearly slump and now it appears that he's on track to have a good rest of the season and finish at .260 or .270.

LauraJ14
05-24-2005, 05:45 PM
The position comparison favors Lee over Konerko. Lee can play LF or 1B. Konerko is so slow that he can barely play 1B. (While many aspects of his D are good, his range is horrible.)

Okay where's the proof that Lee can play 1B, he's not played there in the Big leagues. How long has it taken him to become a decent outfielder?

voodoochile
05-24-2005, 05:47 PM
Okay where's the proof that Lee can play 1B, he's not played there in the Big leagues. How long has it taken him to become a decent outfielder?

He came up as a 3B in the minors. It's not like he has no infield experience. Plus, how much actual defenseive ability does it take to play 1B? Get to the bag and catch the ball. It isn't like people are talking about making him a SS.

Besides, traditionally, corner OF have moved to 1B when they could no longer move around the OF well enough to field the position, so whether Lee currently is a Gold Glove 1B is pretty moot. Odds are he could become competant given time and practice.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 05:48 PM
And it was more than just getting Podsednik. He had to unload either Lee or Konerko because their skill sets were not that different and he wanted to spread around the money from one of their contracts. Lee's deal was longer (potentially) because of his '06 option. He was the one traded because he had more trade value, not because we wanted to keep PK more.

Maybe we ought to rename Konerko "Edsel." Ford could move them off the sales lot, but there are still car collectors out there who think the world of them.
:wink:

:walnuts
"Nobody would ever confuse me with a Ferrari, that's for sure!"

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 05:50 PM
Okay where's the proof that Lee can play 1B, he's not played there in the Big leagues. How long has it taken him to become a decent outfielder?

You've got to be joking? How many firstbasemen do you know that ever got sent out to play left field?

Number 1 qualification for being a firstbasemen: impersonates a tree trunk well.

:roflmao:

:walnuts
"That's me!"

Paulwny
05-24-2005, 05:58 PM
You've got to be joking? How many firstbasemen do you know that ever got sent out to play left field?

Number 1 qualification for being a firstbasemen: impersonates a tree trunk well.

:roflmao:

:walnuts
"That's me!"

It's kind of funny, I can't recall a manager ever putting a 1b in the outfield yet, a few have tried catchers.

Infallible
05-24-2005, 06:04 PM
Most of you have forgotten that in Milwaukee they already had a decent 1b in Lyle Overbay. In getting rid of Pods they would need an outfielder in return not another guy who can only play first base. If Milwaukee was still in the AL I'm sure they would've gotten PK and used him or Overbay for the DH slot. PK is still one of the better assests of this organization. Of course he's over paid but who isn't?

maurice
05-24-2005, 06:07 PM
Okay where's the proof that Lee can play 1B, he's not played there in the Big leagues.

You're wrong. When Lee was brought up to the Sox, they tried him at both 1B and LF. As a former 3B, he actually looked better at 1B than in LF. However, since Konerko could only play 1B, they stuck Lee (the much faster player) in LF.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 06:08 PM
Most of you have forgotten that in Milwaukee they already had a decent 1b in Lyle Overbay.

HELL-LLLOOOOO! That's precisely what made Carlos Lee MORE VALUABLE than Konerko. You can't use Konerko anyplace beside first base in the National League.

:o:

Infallible
05-24-2005, 06:09 PM
. In getting rid of Pods they would need an outfielder in return not another guy who can only play first base.

HEEELLLLOOOOOO yourself. Please see the above.

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 06:16 PM
It is widely known (and widely reported) that Williams was peddling Konerko right through the December winter meetings. Believe me, if Kenny could have gotten anything of value for Paul Konerko we wouldn't have two 200 posts threads calling him out for being near worthless for his salary... if not for his slumps than certainly for behaving like a clubhouse cancer.
:cool:

One thing is beyond dispute: Carlos Lee was not the guy Kenny wanted to trade, but to get Podsednik he needed to make El Caballo available. It was Konerko who he couldn't move.

Like an Edsel.
:wink:

I understand all of that. You listed 3 teams though that turned down a trade for Konerko. IMO, It wasn't so much that they thought PK was a lousy player like everyone here does, but all three of those teams already have good, young 1st baseman who make peanuts (relatively speaking of course) and that's why they didn't need PK. Pods was the player Mil wanted to deal, so of course they wanted another outfielder in return to replace him. AZ has Chad Tracy, plus RJ said he wouldn't go to the Sox. Anaheim has Casey Kotchman. You have to know that this offseason, some team will give PK a similar contract to what Sexson got last winter. It's difficult to reconcile that with the fact that he's so terrible.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 06:18 PM
HEEELLLLOOOOOO yourself. Please see the above.

Fall, since when is filling first base the hard part of putting together a baseball team???

:?:

The '04 Sox are the poster franchise for a team with too many firstbasemen! Milwaukee's preference for Lee proves the point. Konerko solves no problem, but filling LF -- that's another story!
:o:

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 06:20 PM
Voodoochile,


I'm sorry but I couldn't find the JR Showerhead picture to post for getting 200 replies to this thread. I'm also not very good at cutting and pasting.

I guess I'm just a slacker!

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 06:30 PM
Nice job. I'll only further note that a .300 average and another 36 rbi's would make Paul Konerko into a league MVP candidate, a full season far better than anything even Magglio Ordonez ever accomplished. These are also the sort of numbers we Sox Fans just came to take for granted from Frank Thomas, too.

Of course Paul Konerko is no kind of MVP precisely because he slumps too often and too long to ever put together 162 games. He's not Frank Thomas. He's not Magglio Ordonez. He's not even Carlos Lee. Any of these hitters would be putting up even better HR and RBI numbers than Konehead given similar opportunities.

Konerko is their match in only one category: salary.

Mags makes a lot more jack than PK does.

AZChiSoxFan
05-24-2005, 06:36 PM
HELL-LLLOOOOO! That's precisely what made Carlos Lee MORE VALUABLE than Konerko. You can't use Konerko anyplace beside first base in the National League.

:o:

George, correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears you were trying to make the point that teams wanted Lee, not Konerko, because they thought Lee was a better player offensively. Some of us are simply making the argument that it's not that Milwaukee thought Lee was any better than PK, but rather they simply needed an outfielder, not a 1st baseman.

Infallible
05-24-2005, 06:52 PM
Fall, since when is filling first base the hard part of putting together a baseball team???

:?:

The '04 Sox are the poster franchise for a team with too many firstbasemen! Milwaukee's preference for Lee proves the point. Konerko solves no problem, but filling LF -- that's another story!
:o:

George I'm not sure where you're reading all of the above in my posts as I never insinuated anything other than what you already said. Lee was more valuble. My humble suggestion for you my friend is please keep your current job, and leave the psychic readings to Miss Cleo. Respectfully Infallible.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-24-2005, 07:23 PM
George I'm not sure where you're reading all of the above in my posts as I never insinuated anything other than what you already said. Lee was more valuble. My humble suggestion for you my friend is please keep your current job, and leave the psychic readings to Miss Cleo. Respectfully Infallible.

Oh, okay.
:redface:

However you might want to straighten out AZ. He still seems ready to dispute the point with you and me about Lee's superior value to Konerko's.
:cool:

Konerko defenders are nothing if not tenacious.
:wink:

Frater Perdurabo
05-24-2005, 10:07 PM
:tomatoaward: :tomatoaward:

Wow. Both GIDPaul threads have exploded while I've been in class for the last four hours....

Mr. Teflon's defenders certainly are persistent.

shoota
05-25-2005, 02:20 AM
Konerko is an expiring contract who they can resign or let walk for possible draft picks. Dye's contract is up after next season (although they can't trade him until mid June or July (IIRC) because he was signed this offseason). That, in-effect, is taking cash off our hands. Add in 25-30 million in cash and a couple mid-to-high level prospects (anyone but McCarthy, Sweeney, Anderson, Young and Gio) and you have yourself a possible deal. That basically gives us 13 million in salary + 25-30 million in cash, making Helton's salary average out to more like 13-14 million a year over the length of his deal.

This gives Colorado 70 million dollars to spend to build around their younger players and spend on pitching that they don't have today. This is absolutely not out of the norm for teams in this day and age.

I like this trade.

I really like this trade now because I believe when these rare, really good seasons come around, a team should be more willing to sacrifice its future for the present. The goal is to win a World Series.

Flight #24
05-25-2005, 09:31 AM
And what leads you to think he won't?? His career BA coming into this season is .278. In 6 career seasons with the Sox, he's hit .277 or better 5 times. He had a long slump to start the season but is already back up to .234. He's had his yearly slump and now it appears that he's on track to have a good rest of the season and finish at .260 or .270.

The point is that you're not sure whether Paulie's going to rebound off of a slow start, continue to struggle for another month or so, or just plain struggle all year. That's based on history. He's had slow 2d halfs, he's had slow first halfs. Is he having a shortened slow start and coming out of it? Is he going to put 2 slow halfs together? :dunno:

This is why he's defined as inconsistent. Add to that the fact that when he's "on", he's good but by no means great, and you have a player who is "decent, but not great". It's not a guy who's killing you, but it's not a guy who's a primary reason why you win either.

A team with serious World Series aspirations should not have that type of player as their highest paid hitter/offensive cornerstone. He won't be once Frank comes back, but even then - the team should be looking to upgrade. Paulie's merely a convenient place to do that because he's the only highly paid player on offense and because he's not producing commensurate with that salary.

Flight #24
05-25-2005, 09:42 AM
By the way - for all the talk of Konerko as a "hard worker and team leader", have you ever heard of him as a mentor to younger players? Nope. That guy would be........(wait for it)......Frank Thomas. Ask Rowand & Uribe - they'll tell you.

Better hitter, better teammate. But not as good with the media, so he's the cancer and the guy with the loose lips and the slightly above average #s is the "leader"?:kukoo:

Randar68
05-25-2005, 12:25 PM
Since it has been discussed in this thread, just thought I'd throw this in about Todd Helton's contract details:

9-Year worth up to 141.5M (if last year is bought out):

2003- 10.6M
2004- 11.6M
2005- 12.6M
2006- 16.6M
2007- 16.6M
2008- 16.6M
2009- 16.6M
2010- 16.6M
2011- 19.1M
2012- Team option 23M or 4.6M buyout

Other notes/clauses:

- He has ability to void deal after 2007 and become a Free Agent, if he notifies the team of his decision by Nov. 15, 2006
- He has a complete NO-TRADE clause
- BONUSES he has received: 25K bonus for 2004 All-Star, 25K for 2004 Gold Glove

Agent: Michael Moye



Remaining money on the deal:
2005- 12.6M pro-rated
2006- 16.6M
2007- 16.6M
2008- 16.6M
2009- 16.6M
2010- 16.6M
2011- 19.1M
2012- buyout of 4.6M
total remaining money (assuming buyout and 50% of 2005 salary if traded around or before deadline): 113 million dollars over 6.5 seasons (mid-2005 through 2011) = ~17.38 million a season.



I think this shows that if you can get Colorado to either take on salary and/or throw in cash totalling 30 million, the average salary over the remainder of the deal is ~12.77 million. Which is an outstanding deal IMO. If they only give the cash/salary equivalent of 20 million, then we're looking at 14.3 million per season.

With Konerko contract having to be a part of any deal, increased attendance, and pitchers locked up for a couple years and Carl's/Frank's contracts expiring and Dye only signed for one more season, I don't see why this isn't a deal KW should be pursuing full-speed ahead.

This makes us a better team now and in the future. Would require Helton to waive his complete no-trade clause.

maurice
05-25-2005, 12:42 PM
I see no reason why Helton wouldn't agree to waive his no-trade to go to a competitive team. Colorado's not going anywhere . . . probably ever.

Frater Perdurabo
05-25-2005, 12:53 PM
I think this shows that if you can get Colorado to either take on salary and/or throw in cash totalling 30 million, the average salary over the remainder of the deal is ~12.77 million. Which is an outstanding deal IMO. If they only give the cach/salary equivalent of 20 million, then we're looking at 14.3 million per season for Todd Helton.

With Konerko contract having to be a part of any deal, increased attendance, and pitchers locked up for a couple years and Carl's/Frank's contracts expiring and Dye only signed for one more season, I don't see why this isn't a deal KW should be pursuing full-speed ahead.

Add all that to the fact that Helton's left handed, has won multiple Gold Gloves, may hit 500 career homers, and could be a potential HOF candidate. He produces better numbers than Maggs ever did (and even better than Vladimir Guerrero!), and at $12.77-14.3 million per year would be worth every penny.

Short-term, imagine a lineup beginning with Podsednik, Iguchi, Helton and Frank. With Frank protecting him and Pods creating havoc on the basepaths, Helton literally could hit .400. Frank still would walk a ton, and AJ Pierzynski would have 120 RBI if he hit 5th.

Long-term, after Frank retires, Helton can DH full time and continue his climb to Cooperstown.

Flight #24
05-25-2005, 01:08 PM
I think this shows that if you can get Colorado to either take on salary and/or throw in cash totalling 30 million, the average salary over the remainder of the deal is ~12.77 million. Which is an outstanding deal IMO. If they only give the cach/salary equivalent of 20 million, then we're looking at 14.3 million per season.

With Konerko contract having to be a part of any deal, increased attendance, and pitchers locked up for a couple years and Carl's/Frank's contracts expiring and Dye only signed for one more season, I don't see why this isn't a deal KW should be pursuing full-speed ahead.

This makes us a better team now and in the future. Would require Helton to waive his complete no-trade clause.

FWIW, here's a preliminary overview of how I see the roster&financials over the next 2 years.

2006:
Lose: Konerko (8.75mil), Everett (4.5mil), Shingo(2.5mil), Timo(1mil), Frank (8mil)-->total = 24.75mil
Pay raises: Buehrle (2mil), Garcia (1mil), Uribe (1mil), ARow (1mil), Podsednik (2mil)-->total = 7mil
Arb increases/longterm contracts: Garland (3.5mil raise to 7mil), AJ(3mil raise to 5mil)-->total = 6.5mil
Needs: DH, 1B, RP, backup OF
Solution: Helton at 14mil, Frank at a 7-mil per year, 2-yr extension, Anderson, McCarthy/Cuban in the pen-->total = 21mil
Net salary increase: 10mil

2007:
Lose: Duque(4.5mil), Contreras(6mil), Dye(5mil)-->total = 15.5mil
Pay raises: Garcia (1mil) Garland (1mil to 8mil), Buehrle (2mil), Arow (1mil), Uribe (1mil)-->total = 6mil
Arb increase/longterm deal: Podsednik (3mil raise to 5.5mil)-->total = 3mil
Needs: 1 SP, 1-2RP, RF
Solution: SP = Gio or vet FA, RP=rookies or 1-2mil FAs, RF=Anderson (or move Rowand over)
Net Salary increase: 0

I'm sure I'm missing some guys, but I can't believe they're making much. Bottom line is that trading for Helton on a deal like the one Randar outlined commits to a sustained salary increase in the 10-15mil range (to about 90mil), but gives the team a top-flight WS contender this year and for the next 2. If you go with an increase in attendance of 300-500k and profit/ticket at $25 (including concessions, parking, etc) then you're talking increased profits of $7.5-12.5mil before playoff revenues. And adding a Helton ought to provide a pretty serious attendance bump this year and next.

Randar68
05-25-2005, 01:39 PM
I'm sure I'm missing some guys, but I can't believe they're making much. Bottom line is that trading for Helton on a deal like the one Randar outlined commits to a sustained salary increase in the 10-15mil range (to about 90mil), but gives the team a top-flight WS contender this year and for the next 2. If you go with an increase in attendance of 300-500k and profit/ticket at $25 (including concessions, parking, etc) then you're talking increased profits of $7.5-12.5mil before playoff revenues. And adding a Helton ought to provide a pretty serious attendance bump this year and next.

I don't know if Helton buys you much increase in attendance right away. He is one of the most underappreciated guys in baseball, and Pauly being a "fan favorite" might pretty-much balance itself out. However, I do salivate at the thought of a first innings of...

Pods: .375 OBP
Gooch: .360 OBP
Helton: .430 OBP
Frank: .410 OBP

There would be a ton of RBI there for Rowand/AJ/whoever...

Flight #24
05-25-2005, 01:42 PM
I don't know if Helton buys you much increase in attendance right away. He is one of the most underappreciated guys in baseball, and Pauly being a "fan favorite" might pretty-much balance itself out. However, I do salivate at the thought of a first innings of...

Pods: .375 OBP
Gooch: .360 OBP
Helton: .430 OBP
Frank: .410 OBP

There would be a ton of RBI there for Rowand/AJ/whoever...

IMO you'd get a ton of national media talk as Gammons, etc would salivate over Helton's #s, especially if Frank's back when they do it. Locally there would be some moaning by the usual mediots, but I'd give it about a week before Helton's performance shows how great that deal would be.

Bottom line though, if you go from winning 2-1 to winning 6-1, you'll add to the believers both locally and nationally, which will increase attendance over what would happen if you keep winning the low-scoring close ones like right now.

EDIT: IN any case, the team's currently on pace for IIRC 2.3mil. That should move upwards if they stay in contention. Adding Helton would at least guarantee the upper end of the 300-500 range IMO, or $12.5mil.

soxtalker
05-25-2005, 01:53 PM
By the way - for all the talk of Konerko as a "hard worker and team leader", have you ever heard of him as a mentor to younger players? Nope. That guy would be........(wait for it)......Frank Thomas. Ask Rowand & Uribe - they'll tell you.

Better hitter, better teammate. But not as good with the media, so he's the cancer and the guy with the loose lips and the slightly above average #s is the "leader"?:kukoo:

What players have been discussed as being mentors to younger players? I'm sure that there are others, but the only one that comes to mind immediately is Buerhle. It may be that most players don't do a lot of mentoring (which wouldn't make it terribly different than the normal corporate world), though it is also likely that this is something that is done on a very low-key basis and isn't advertised.

I find it hard to get worked up about Paulie's comments. I hope that they aren't that big of a deal in the clubhouse. The team needs some players / managers that can talk to the media. When that happens, they are occasionally going to say something that they probably shouldn't. Paulie has made a few errors like this, but not that many if you consider that he is probably interviewed after most games. Frank had to stop talking to the media, because he often said things that sounded terrible. Ozzie takes a lot of heat off the players by talking so much, but some of the things he says would be better not said.

I don't know whether Paulie is considered a leader by the other players. The reporters covering the team should know, but they may not want to say. Did we hear much about some players having a problem with Carlos Lee while he was here. I don't recall it. But there were comments by the reporters after he left.

voodoochile
05-25-2005, 02:37 PM
FWIW, here's a preliminary overview of how I see the roster&financials over the next 2 years.

2006:
Lose: Konerko (8.75mil), Everett (4.5mil), Shingo(2.5mil), Timo(1mil), Frank (8mil)-->total = 24.75mil
Pay raises: Buehrle (2mil), Garcia (1mil), Uribe (1mil), ARow (1mil), Podsednik (2mil)-->total = 7mil
Arb increases/longterm contracts: Garland (3.5mil raise to 7mil), AJ(3mil raise to 5mil)-->total = 6.5mil
Needs: DH, 1B, RP, backup OF
Solution: Helton at 14mil, Frank at a 7-mil per year, 2-yr extension, Anderson, McCarthy/Cuban in the pen-->total = 21mil
Net salary increase: 10mil


The only think I see that looks off is the Frank salary numbers. I am pretty sure he gets a 3.5M buyout this season if takes his option - $10M - and they decide to cut him anyway. That means they can have him back in 2006 for less money than you are currently suggesting ($3.5+$7) for next year with no money guaranteed beyond that.

Flight #24
05-25-2005, 02:47 PM
The only think I see that looks off is the Frank salary numbers. I am pretty sure he gets a 3.5M buyout this season if takes his option - $10M - and they decide to cut him anyway. That means they can have him back in 2006 for less money than you are currently suggesting ($3.5+$7) for next year with no money guaranteed beyond that.

No, I'm saying instead of either taking the $10mil option or simply cutting him for $3.5, they come to an agreement on a 2-year, $14mil deal. It's not $7 plus the buyout, it's 7 instead of the buyout. So Frank sticks around for 2 years (or more), at a reasonable salary ($7mil).

voodoochile
05-25-2005, 02:51 PM
No, I'm saying instead of either taking the $10mil option or simply cutting him for $3.5, they come to an agreement on a 2-year, $14mil deal. It's not $7 plus the buyout, it's 7 instead of the buyout. So Frank sticks around for 2 years (or more), at a reasonable salary ($7mil).

Well, Frank would have to agree to that. He can make 3.5M guaranteed simply by taking his option and $10M guaranteed if they don't cut him when he does.

You are really talking about a 10.5M contract and I don't know if Frank will do that. Maybe 3 years, $20M he might accept it. That way the Sox would still be covered if his ankle gave out too.

Flight #24
05-25-2005, 02:56 PM
Well, Frank would have to agree to that. He can make 3.5M guaranteed simply by taking his option and $10M guaranteed if they don't cut him when he does.

You are really talking about a 10.5M contract and I don't know if Frank will do that. Maybe 3 years, $20M he might accept it. That way the Sox would still be covered if his ankle gave out too.

I think something like that's viable. Maybe it's a 3-year deal with some sort of injury-clause that defers $$$ if he can't play in yr3. Regardless, I think they should be able to come to an agreement that keeps him around at a reasonable salary. He wants to stay, if he's still productive it makes perfect sense. I don't see him getting much more than $7-10mil in FA, and that likely on a 1-year deal. Not that many teams that need DHs, especially not playoff teams. I would think he'd sacrifice some $$$ to stay here, be around his kids, and play for a winning team.

Beauty35thStreet
05-26-2005, 09:06 PM
The Sox must do whatever it takes to keep Frank......

Frank Thomas---let's make it end right with WS ring and HOF with one team
2005---let's make it happen now