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View Full Version : What do Jermaine Dye, Billy Koch & Mike Jackson have in common?


Hangar18
05-17-2005, 12:32 PM
Anyone care to take a guess?

cheeses_h_rice
05-17-2005, 12:36 PM
They stopped being good the second they strapped on a White Sox jersey?

owensmouth
05-17-2005, 12:39 PM
They were all brought to Chicago by Kenny Williams

crazyozzie02
05-17-2005, 12:43 PM
They stopped being good the second they strapped on a White Sox jersey?

I have to agree with you

mantis1212
05-17-2005, 12:43 PM
This isn't another Billy Beane thing is it?

daveeym
05-17-2005, 12:44 PM
They all have the letter I in their names.

Flight #24
05-17-2005, 12:50 PM
None of them have ever been in my kitchen?

Baby Fisk
05-17-2005, 12:53 PM
They all love their moms.

34 Inch Stick
05-17-2005, 12:56 PM
They all saw a DRAMATIC downturn in their production once they left Oakland/San Francisco/BALCO area.

batmanZoSo
05-17-2005, 12:58 PM
Anyone care to take a guess?

They're all named after one of the Jackson 5. Michael and Jermaine, for sure anyway. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say there was also a Billy Jackson that didn't have any talent, so we just never heard of him. But he's out there...:wink:

RKMeibalane
05-17-2005, 01:08 PM
They've all been big dissapointments.

Rocky Soprano
05-17-2005, 01:09 PM
Hangar doesnt like them.

RKMeibalane
05-17-2005, 01:10 PM
Hangar doesnt like them.

Yeah, but Hangar doesn't like anyone who doesn't think about the Sox every second of every day. If someone thinks about his girlfriend for any length of time, Hangar thinks of that as media bias against the Sox. :cool:

PorkChopExpress
05-17-2005, 01:14 PM
They're all named after one of the Jackson 5. Michael and Jermaine, for sure anyway. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say there was also a Billy Jackson that didn't have any talent, so we just never heard of him. But he's out there...:wink:

Plus this year we have a Tito (TadahITO)!

Hangar18
05-17-2005, 01:15 PM
Some very witty and creative guesses. However, the one thing these guys
have in common is that they were ALL brought here as CHEAPER alternatives
to their more expensive predecessors.

Rocky Soprano
05-17-2005, 01:17 PM
Some very witty and creative guesses. However, the one thing these guys
have in common is that they were ALL brought here as CHEAPER alternatives
to their more expensive predecessors.

Yeah I'm sure Magglio would be helping us MUCH more right now.

ChiSox14305635
05-17-2005, 01:19 PM
That's easy.


They all have shaved heads. :D:

Hangar18
05-17-2005, 01:19 PM
Some very witty and creative guesses. However, the one thing these guys have in common is that they were ALL brought here as CHEAPER alternatives to their more expensive predecessors.


:reinsy " So whats your point Hangar ?"

Baby Fisk
05-17-2005, 01:22 PM
What will Hangar's Killer Question be if the Sox lose 4 in a row? :o:

Kuzman
05-17-2005, 01:22 PM
Some very witty and creative guesses. However, the one thing these guys
have in common is that they were ALL brought here as CHEAPER alternatives
to their more expensive predecessors.

and couldnt live up to the hype that they had before coming to the south side as well.

mcfish
05-17-2005, 01:23 PM
Some very witty and creative guesses. However, the one thing these guys
have in common is that they were ALL brought here as CHEAPER alternatives
to their more expensive predecessors.Are you suggesting that you would prefer Magglio on the White Sox DL for $15 million this year? Because I'm sure as hell glad we don't have that problem right now.

Mickster
05-17-2005, 01:25 PM
Are you suggesting that you would prefer Magglio on the White Sox DL for $15 million this year? Because I'm sure as hell glad we don't have that problem right now.

That appears to be exactly what he is suggesting. Plus, I'd rather have Hermanson at $2M than Foulke at Boston $$$. I think Henry put on the Payroll tinfoil hat this morning...... :(:

Ol' No. 2
05-17-2005, 01:29 PM
Who did Mike Jackson replace? Oh, yeah. Rick White.:o:

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2005, 01:30 PM
Some very witty and creative guesses. However, the one thing these guys
have in common is that they were ALL brought here as CHEAPER alternatives
to their more expensive predecessors.

Hangar, I knew you'd say this and you are right to do so. But to be fair, consider:

Isn't Orlando Hernandez better and more expensive than Wright/Diaz/Munoz?

Isn't the catching combination of A.J./Widger better and more expensive than Burke/Davis?

Isn't Jose Contreras better and more expensive than Esteban Loaiza?

Isn't Freddy Garcia better and more expensive than Scott Schoeneweis?

And while some may disagree, and although he's cheaper, I'd rather have Scott Podsednik than Carlos Lee.

So far, Dye is a bust. BUT SO IS KONERKO.

The amount of "free passes" Konerko gets is astounding. He's become Rob Deer.

Konerko and Dye equally are to blame for the "donut shaped offense" you've described. Both should be dropped in the order or preferably benched. (Carl Everett isn't exactly lighting the world on fire, either.)

When Frank returns, he's the DH. Everett plays left, Pods to center and Rowand to right. If Konerko doesn't figure it out by then, sit him and start Gload at first. (Alternatively, trade for Aubrey Huff or Todd Helton.)

Hangar18
05-17-2005, 01:31 PM
Are you suggesting that you would prefer Magglio on the White Sox DL for $15 million this year? Because I'm sure as hell glad we don't have that problem right now.


Heck no, cmon man. We discussed this in our seats last nite. Carlos Lee
in RF would strike more fear in pitchers than Jermaine Dye. They simply pitch
around Konerko knowing hes going to swing at terrible pitches .......

Hangar18
05-17-2005, 01:33 PM
Hangar, I knew you'd say this and you are right to do so. But to be fair, consider:

Isn't Orlando Hernandez better and more expensive than Wright/Diaz/Munoz?

Isn't the catching combination of A.J./Widger better and more expensive than Burke/Davis?

Isn't Jose Contreras better and more expensive than Esteban Loaiza?

Isn't Freddy Garcia better and more expensive than Scott Schoeneweis?

And while some may disagree, and although he's cheaper, I'd rather have Scott Podsednik than Carlos Lee.

So far, Dye is a bust. BUT SO IS KONERKO.

The amount of "free passes" Konerko gets is astounding. He's become Rob Deer.

Konerko and Dye equally are to blame for the "donut shaped offense" you've described. Both should be dropped in the order or preferably benched. (Carl Everett isn't exactly lighting the world on fire, either.)

When Frank returns, he's the DH. Everett plays left, Pods to center and Rowand to right. If Konerko doesn't figure it out by then, sit him and start Gload at first. (Alternatively, trade for Aubrey Huff or Todd Helton.)

I guess what Im really saying is, did we REALLY NEED to trade Lee to get Podsednik? I guess its debatable what we couldve given up. Losing Ordonez production hurts big in this lineup.

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2005, 01:33 PM
Heck no, cmon man. We discussed this in our seats last nite. Carlos Lee
in RF would strike more fear in pitchers than Jermaine Dye. They simply pitch
around Konerko knowing hes going to swing at terrible pitches .......

I wouldn't trade Podsednik back to Milwaukee straight up for Carlos Lee right now.

Ol' No. 2
05-17-2005, 01:33 PM
Heck no, cmon man. We discussed this in our seats last nite. Carlos Lee
in RF would strike more fear in pitchers than Jermaine Dye. They simply pitch
around Konerko knowing hes going to swing at terrible pitches .......Carlos Lee in RF would strike fear into pitchers, all right. OUR PITCHERS.:o:

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2005, 01:34 PM
I guess what Im really saying is, did we REALLY NEED to trade Lee to get Podsednik? I guess its debatable what we couldve given up. Losing Ordonez production hurts big in this lineup.

If you were Doug Melvin, would you settle for less than Carlos Lee in exchange for Podsednik and Vizcaino?

I'd give my left nut to have Maggs' offensive production back in the lineup. But even if Jerry Reinsdorf threw money around like Steinbrenner, Maggs would not be in the lineup last night.

Ol' No. 2
05-17-2005, 01:40 PM
I guess what Im really saying is, did we REALLY NEED to trade Lee to get Podsednik? I guess its debatable what we couldve given up. Losing Ordonez production hurts big in this lineup.The Brewers were looking for a RH power-hitting OF to sandwich between Jenkins and Overbay. Did we have any other RH power-hitting OF we could have given them?

Hangar18
05-17-2005, 01:41 PM
If you were Doug Melvin, would you settle for less than Carlos Lee in exchange for Podsednik and Vizcaino?

I'll bet we couldve traded just ONE of our very good minor leaguers for that package. Then again, that magnifies the way we overpaid to get Todd Ritchie. The money we supposedly "saved" is now going to be wasted on
a declining Jermaine Dye ............

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2005, 01:41 PM
The other thing that I know Hangar's upset about is the fact that when strictly compared to the Evil Blue Corporation's "Pittsburgh larceny" of Aramis Ramirez and the "Boston-Minnseota caper" for Nomar, it seems like Kenny overpaid when he traded Lee to get Podsednik and Vizcaino.

To that, I ask this: who would like to trade places with Jim Hendry right now? How are Hendry's "great" moves and that big "Evil Blue Budget" working out for him now?

:cool:

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2005, 01:44 PM
I'll bet we couldve traded just ONE of our very good minor leaguers for that package. Then again, that magnifies the way we overpaid to get Todd Ritchie. The money we supposedly "saved" is now going to be wasted on
a declining Jermaine Dye ............

I agree 100% on the Ritchie deal. But then again, Kenny "stole" a number of effecctive David Wells starts for Mike Sirotka, who has never pitched since! You win some, you lose some. He also stole Bartolo Colon. Give credit where credit is due.

Would you have traded Brian Anderson for Podsednik and Vizcaino? More to the point, would Doug Melvin have traded Pods and Viz to get Anderson?

Rocky Soprano
05-17-2005, 01:45 PM
Heck no, cmon man. We discussed this in our seats last nite. Carlos Lee
in RF would strike more fear in pitchers than Jermaine Dye. They simply pitch
around Konerko knowing hes going to swing at terrible pitches .......

We NEED Pods on this team, so how exactly would you of gotten him from the Brewers? The Brewers wanted a PROVEN power hitter.

We had Carlos for a few years, he didnt take us anywhere. As much as I loved him sometimes he would piss me off so much when you could tell he was being lazy, especially at running the bases!

Mickster
05-17-2005, 01:46 PM
He also stole Roberto Colon. Give credit where credit is due.

He even got Roberto's cousin Bartolo thrown in the deal, as well! :wink:

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2005, 01:48 PM
He even got Roberto's cousin Bartolo thrown in the deal, as well! :wink:

LOL :roflmao:

I fixed it!

Brian26
05-17-2005, 01:51 PM
Carlos Lee in RF would strike fear into pitchers, all right. OUR PITCHERS.:o:

LOL!

Brian26
05-17-2005, 01:53 PM
Some very witty and creative guesses. However, the one thing these guys
have in common is that they were ALL brought here as CHEAPER alternatives
to their more expensive predecessors.

Hopefully this will all be a moot point when Frank gets back.

Hangar18
05-17-2005, 01:54 PM
The other thing that I know Hangar's upset about is the fact that when strictly compared to the Evil Blue Corporation's "Pittsburgh larceny" of Aramis Ramirez and the "Boston-Minnseota caper" for Nomar, it seems like Kenny overpaid when he traded Lee to get Podsednik and Vizcaino.

To that, I ask this: who would like to trade places with Jim Hendry right now? How are Hendry's "great" moves and that big "Evil Blue Budget" working out for him now?

:cool:


DINGDING. youve hit the nail on the head. We trade with small market teams and pay market value, while that other team trades with small market teams and gets product for Free. Im just wondering could we have done the same without handcuffing ourselves financially? Especially seeing how this team was coming together so nicely (the pitching additions etc)

We took a chance not paying Carlos $8million for the pleasure of paying Dye
$10Million (is that what his deal was worth, or was it incentives?). So in the
short term, were still spending more. Thats great.

Thing is, every time this team makes a financially based roster move,
we get burned ....... badly. Our roster is littered with $$$ moves, among
those Billy Koch whose 6 or so blown saves were what we lost the division by
to Minnesota. Jackson couldnt hold a lead to save his life, and that cost us numerous games.

Ol' No. 2
05-17-2005, 01:55 PM
I'll bet we couldve traded just ONE of our very good minor leaguers for that package. Not a snowball's chance in hell.

Hangar18
05-17-2005, 01:56 PM
Hopefully this will all be a moot point when Frank gets back.

Man .......... Im really hoping and praying that he hits like gangbusters
on his Rehab assignment, so that Konerko can quit thinking hes superman
and getting himself out. Hitting is contagious .... But so are slumps

Rocky Soprano
05-17-2005, 01:58 PM
Man .......... Im really hoping and praying that he hits like gangbusters
on his Rehab assignment, so that Konerko can quit thinking hes superman
and getting himself out. Hitting is contagious .... But so are slumps

Why am I certain that WHEN the Sox start hitting you will find something else to complain about?

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2005, 02:05 PM
DINGDING. youve hit the nail on the head. We trade with small market teams and pay market value, while that other team trades with small market teams and gets product for Free. Im just wondering could we have done the same without handcuffing ourselves financially? Especially seeing how this team was coming together so nicely (the pitching additions etc)

We took a chance not paying Carlos $8million for the pleasure of paying Dye
$10Million (is that what his deal was worth, or was it incentives?). So in the
short term, were still spending more. Thats great.

Thing is, every time this team makes a financially based roster move,
we get burned ....... badly. Our roster is littered with $$$ moves, among
those Billy Koch whose 6 or so blown saves were what we lost the division by
to Minnesota. Jackson couldnt hold a lead to save his life, and that cost us numerous games.

According to ESPN, Dye's making $4M this year. It's a two-year deal worth $10.15M, with a club option for 2007. Lee's making $8M this year.

Of course I'd rather have Lee than Dye. But I'd rather have Pods than Lee.

In hindsight, it even might have been better if KW didn't sign Dye at all and instead just promoted Anderson.

anewman35
05-17-2005, 02:06 PM
We took a chance not paying Carlos $8million for the pleasure of paying Dye $10Million (is that what his deal was worth, or was it incentives?). So in the short term, were still spending more. Thats great.


IIRC, Dye is getting $4 million this year, which totally negates any point you might have had. Even if he was getting $10 million, though, you don't have a valid point - we didn't just give up Carlos Lee for free, we gave up Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik. If we keep Carlos Lee and don't get Dye, who leads off? Who plays right field? Joe Borchard? Brian Anderson? There is NO WAY this team is better with Carlos Lee/Brian Anderson than it is with Scott Podsednik/Jermaine Dye. And, anyway, I promise you, if the Sox HAD gone Carlos Lee/Brian Anderson, you'd be complaining that they were putting an unproven rookie out there instead of spending the money to get a veteran player.

Rocky Soprano
05-17-2005, 02:10 PM
And, anyway, I promise you, if the Sox HAD gone Carlos Lee/Brian Anderson, you'd be complaining that they were putting an unproven rookie out there instead of spending the money to get a veteran player.

DING DING DING DING DING, we have a winner.

Some people will ALWAYS complain no matter what.

Flight #24
05-17-2005, 02:12 PM
Thing is, every time this team makes a financially based roster move,
we get burned ....... badly. Our roster is littered with $$$ moves, among
those Billy Koch whose 6 or so blown saves were what we lost the division by
to Minnesota. Jackson couldnt hold a lead to save his life, and that cost us numerous games.

This gets more ludicrous every day. Getting Dye had nothing to do with trading Lee - it had to to with not resigning Maggs (and not wanting the Borchard/Timo/Gload experience in RF). Would you take that back? No. So your your argument doesn't hold water. They didn't let Maggs go to save $$$, in fact they offered him a $12mil/yr deal!!!

On to Carlos. You can speculate all you want that you could have gotten Podsednik for Mike Sirotka's old labrum and some of Harold's toenail clippings, but that doesn't make it true. The Lee-Podsednik deal wasn't made to save money (hint hint - payroll is significantly higher in 2005 than 2004). It was made because they thought money was better spent on pitching and across positions than tied up in 1 position.

Even if your choices are Maggs+Carlos or Dye+Podsednik, I'd still take the second pair. And that ignores all the other guys you got via the redistribution of payroll: Duque, Pierzynski, Iguchi.

Hangar18
05-17-2005, 02:16 PM
IIRC, Dye is getting $4 million this year, which totally negates any point you might have had. Even if he was getting $10 million, though, you don't have a valid point - we didn't just give up Carlos Lee for free, we gave up Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik. If we keep Carlos Lee and don't get Dye, who leads off? Who plays right field? Joe Borchard? Brian Anderson? There is NO WAY this team is better with Carlos Lee/Brian Anderson than it is with Scott Podsednik/Jermaine Dye. And, anyway, I promise you, if the Sox HAD gone Carlos Lee/Brian Anderson, you'd be complaining that they were putting an unproven rookie out there instead of spending the money to get a veteran player.


Well, I dont have a crystal ball, but I will PREDICT this, if the SOX make a move pre-determined by $$$$$, theres a good chance the SOX will somehow
get burned in the process. I could either complain about Dye, or talk rosily about Dye. I chose to complain about him. His costing of games for us far outweighs his "defense" that supposedly was the reason he was brought here for. The fact that he has a 2 yr deal also means in the end he will ironically end up costing more anyway. I really do think that
we couldve gotten Podsednik here without having to move Lee. Hendry does it all the time, I tend to think we could have also.

Rocky Soprano
05-17-2005, 02:19 PM
Well, I dont have a crystal ball, but I will PREDICT this, if the SOX make a move pre-determined by $$$$$, theres a good chance the SOX will somehow
get burned in the process. I could either complain about Dye, or talk rosily about Dye. I chose to complain about him. His costing of games for us far outweighs his "defense" that supposedly was the reason he was brought here for. The fact that he has a 2 yr deal also means in the end he will ironically end up costing more anyway. I really do think that
we couldve gotten Podsednik here without having to move Lee. Hendry does it all the time, I tend to think we could have also.

Well if you dont have a crystall ball then you really cant predict something.

The Sox still have the best record in all of baseball. So why COMPLAIN!

And how do YOU know that KW didnt try to get Pods without given up Lee? You dont know since you werent there.

If you are such a fan of Hendry why dont you carry yourself over to the other team then. Hendry's moves this past off-season are really paying off right now.

Ol' No. 2
05-17-2005, 02:20 PM
I really do think that
we couldve gotten Podsednik here without having to move Lee. Hendry does it all the time, I tend to think we could have also.What color is the sky on the planet where you live? Not...a...chance.

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2005, 02:25 PM
Even if your choices are Maggs+Carlos or Dye+Podsednik, I'd still take the second pair. And that ignores all the other guys you got via the redistribution of payroll: Duque, Pierzynski, Iguchi.

I totally forgot about Iguchi.

Iguchi is more expensive and geometrically better than Harris at 2B.

Flight #24
05-17-2005, 02:27 PM
I really do think that
we couldve gotten Podsednik here without having to move Lee. Hendry does it all the time, I tend to think we could have also.

Wrong. Hendry got Ramirez and DLee when they were scheduled to significantly increase their salaries via arbitration (IIRC into the $6mil range) and the smaller market teams couldn't afford them. The Brewers had already resigned Podsednik to a deal that paid him .550k this year and 1.9mil next year. If anything, they were holding onto him even more dearly because he's good and cheap.

If you think we could have traded a bunch of magic beans for Podsednik, why stop there? Cheap, stupid Sox - should have traded Joe Borchard for Miguel Cabrera, Feliz Diaz for Dontrelle Willis, and Joey Cora's shoelaces for Ben Sheets.

Equal degrees of reality involved.

Hangar18
05-17-2005, 02:28 PM
They didn't let Maggs go to save $$$, in fact they offered him a $12mil/yr deal!!!

Even if your choices are Maggs+Carlos or Dye+Podsednik, I'd still take the second pair. And that ignores all the other guys you got via the redistribution of payroll: Duque, Pierzynski, Iguchi.

If Maggs takes that contract offer, Carlos Lee again is traded, and so is
Paul Konerko. The only good thing that came of all that was he got hurt,
thereby them having only to get rid of 1 more player. Im not ignoring the
redistribution, because it has helped, but I guess were heading backto the
payroll question, why not Raise it significantly instead of just a little bit.

Rocky Soprano
05-17-2005, 02:31 PM
If Maggs takes that contract offer, Carlos Lee again is traded, and so is
Paul Konerko. The only good thing that came of all that was he got hurt,
thereby them having only to get rid of 1 more player. Im not ignoring the
redistribution, because it has helped, but I guess were heading backto the
payroll question, why not Raise it significantly instead of just a little bit.

Then you would of complained about keeping Maggs and how they should of let him walk and use his money to get a catcher, another SP, a second baseman, and a leadoff man and sign someone like Dye.

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2005, 02:35 PM
but I guess were heading backto the
payroll question, why not Raise it significantly instead of just a little bit.

You have a legitimate beef there, IMHO. Without starting another battle between the JR defenders and the JR haters, I'll just say that you have a good point on the issue of total payroll. You and Lip and many others think it should be higher, as has been well documented in the annals of WSI.

Flight #24
05-17-2005, 02:35 PM
If Maggs takes that contract offer, Carlos Lee again is traded, and so is
Paul Konerko.

(Bangs head against wall)

Carlos Lee was traded not to save money, but to be able to do more with the money. If Maggs was here, you're right - Carlos probably would have been traded.....so that they could run out an OF of Podsednik-Rowand-Maggs instead of Carlos-Rowand-Maggs.

why not Raise it significantly instead of just a little bit.
So again - your issue isn't that they were trying to save money, it's that they didn't raise payroll to YOUR liking. I can pretty much guarantee that had they raised it another 10mil and had issues, you'd still think they were beaing cheap "If they were going to raise payroll $20mil, why not $30?"

63mil-->75mil is a 19% increase. That doesn't count as "a little bit", that's pretty significant.

voodoochile
05-17-2005, 02:41 PM
I guess what Im really saying is, did we REALLY NEED to trade Lee to get Podsednik? I guess its debatable what we couldve given up. Losing Ordonez production hurts big in this lineup.

No, actually, it doesn't hurt at all because...

(drum roll please)

HE'S NOT PLAYING AND MAY NEVER PLAY AGAIN!!!:rolleyes:

When the Sox grabbed Dye almost everyone was damned happy about it. It looked like they had made a solid effort to replace a good portion of Magglio's (old-pre-injury-two-healthy-knees-and-a-decent-attitude) production. But, right now and at this time, Dye's production is infinitely better than Magglio's. It's not better than Lee's, but that's another topic...

Okay, here's that other topic...

Ah... Carlos Lee for Podsednik (and Vizcaino and AJ and El Duque and (the best hitter on the team this year) Iguchi). Yes, the Sox COULD have traded for Pods with less talent (in theory - though all we have to go on is your word) BUT (and like mine - it's a big one) they would still be paying Lee's salary which would have freed up a LOT less money to sign the guys they signed.

QUestion for you Hangar: Would the Sox be 27-12 without all the players they got with the money they were paying Lee?

You just can't have it both ways. Yes, we all want to see higher payroll, and you can go back to ripping on JR for being a cheap stingy bastard or not being Steinbrenner or whatever else comes to your foil encased brain, but given the Sox payroll constraints of $75M (and like it or not, it's just a fact of the moment) the Sox are MUCH better off without Lee and Magglio because the money was spent on more players to fill lots of holes on last year's team.

It's a dead horse Hangar... I repeat... IT'S DEAD!!! Stop beating it, it isn't going to move...

Hangar18
05-17-2005, 02:44 PM
So why COMPLAIN!


Good question. Why Complain? Um, because Jermaine Dye isnt getting it done
weve got the best record and thats excellent. We wont have the best record for long if we cant stop teams that have Good Pitching AND Good Hitting.

TaylorStSox
05-17-2005, 02:46 PM
You had me at Carlos Lee in RF.

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2005, 02:47 PM
If anything, Hangar, your anger should be focused squarely on Dye AND Konerko right now. They simply aren't getting it done. Period.
:angry:

Hangar18
05-17-2005, 02:51 PM
If anything, Hangar, your anger should be focused squarely on Dye AND Konerko right now. They simply aren't getting it done. Period.
:angry:

Your right. Dye is a nice guy, and unfortuneately, he is finished. Whats really unfortuneate is that hes making Konerko terrible. He keeps swinging likes hes superman and he isnt. I like that hes made some solid contact. We cant have both of them in the lineup. Keep Timo out there, and bat Timo
8th or 9th. At least when Konerkos batting, were not wondering how Dye
will make the last out ........

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2005, 02:58 PM
Your right. Dye is a nice guy, and unfortuneately, he is finished. Whats really unfortuneate is that hes making Konerko terrible. He keeps swinging likes hes superman and he isnt. I like that hes made some solid contact. We cant have both of them in the lineup. Keep Timo out there, and bat Timo
8th or 9th. At least when Konerkos batting, were not wondering how Dye
will make the last out ........

By your logic, couldn't it also be argued that Konerko is dragging down Dye?

Hitters certainly feed off each other's streaks and slumps. However, ultimately Paulie is responsible for his own production. It's not fair to blame Dye for Paulie's slump.

This illustrates my earlier point about Konerko getting a free pass. Crede rightfully was lambasted for sucking last year. Dye rightfully is lambasted for sucking this year. Konerko's deserves the same scorn until he solves his case of rectal-cranial inversion.

Dye and Konerko both are nice guys who are dragging the Sox down right now. They've lost 5 of their last 8. I blame Dye and Konerko equally.

Hangar18
05-17-2005, 03:02 PM
By your logic, couldn't it also be argued that Konerko is dragging down Dye?

Hitters certainly feed off each other's streaks and slumps. However, ultimately Paulie is responsible for his own production. It's not fair to blame Dye for Paulie's slump.

This illustrates my earlier point about Konerko getting a free pass. Crede rightfully was lambasted for sucking last year. Dye rightfully is lambasted for sucking this year. Konerko's deserves the same scorn until he solves his case of rectal-cranial inversion.

Dye and Konerko both are nice guys who are dragging the Sox down right now. They've lost 5 of their last 8. I blame Dye and Konerko equally.

you know ......... we talked about that when Konerko came to bat.
The crowd Paulie-Paulied him as if he homered his last 5 ab's. Im all for supporting the guy, but Crede doesnt get that love, neither does Iguchi,
who should.

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2005, 03:05 PM
The crowd Paulie-Paulied him as if he homered his last 5 ab's.

I noticed that too while listening to the Ranger's radio broadcast (no ESPN in my house :(: ) last night. You'd think he was a Hall of Famer.

Rocky Soprano
05-17-2005, 03:06 PM
you know ......... we talked about that when Konerko came to bat.
The crowd Paulie-Paulied him as if he homered his last 5 ab's. Im all for supporting the guy, but Crede doesnt get that love, neither does Iguchi,
who should.

Neither did AJ after the Grand Slam.

Even Frank would get booed while in a slump, but this nothing but love for Konerko is weird.

daveeym
05-17-2005, 03:07 PM
Your right. Dye is a nice guy, and unfortuneately, he is finished. Whats really unfortuneate is that hes making Konerko terrible. He keeps swinging likes hes superman and he isnt. I like that hes made some solid contact. We cant have both of them in the lineup. Keep Timo out there, and bat Timo
8th or 9th. At least when Konerkos batting, were not wondering how Dye
will make the last out ........
That's bulletin board material right now. Dye is gonna turn it on and go searching for Henry and shove his tin foil hat up his ass.

Hangar18
05-17-2005, 03:10 PM
That's bulletin board material right now. Dye is gonna turn it on and go searching for Henry and shove his tin foil hat up his ass.

Hehh heh hhehh heh. wouldnt that be something, if he turns his season
around and says it was because of some jerk fans comments? heh heh

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2005, 03:11 PM
Hehh heh hhehh heh. wouldnt that be something, if he turns his season
around and says it was because of some jerk fans comments? heh heh

Something tells me you'd be overjoyed if he hit .350 and 35 homers the rest of the year after beating your arse....
:bandance:

daveeym
05-17-2005, 03:22 PM
Something tells me you'd be overjoyed if he hit .350 and 35 homers the rest of the year after beating your arse....
:bandance: Let's get Brooks involved with this and make it happen.

NorthlakeTom
05-17-2005, 03:33 PM
Some very witty and creative guesses. However, the one thing these guys
have in common is that they were ALL brought here as CHEAPER alternatives
to their more expensive predecessors.
Are you sure about that?

IIRC, Mike Jackson was a late invite to spring training and barely made the team. I don't think that fits your criteria of being brought as a cheaper alternative to the predecessor. Who was Jackson's predecessor?

anewman35
05-17-2005, 03:43 PM
The fact that he has a 2 yr deal also means in the end he will ironically end up costing more anyway.

Um, was Carlos Lee going to play for $2 million next year? Otherwise, Dye isn't costing more than Lee.

mjharrison72
05-17-2005, 03:49 PM
you know ......... we talked about that when Konerko came to bat.
The crowd Paulie-Paulied him as if he homered his last 5 ab's. Im all for supporting the guy, but Crede doesnt get that love, neither does Iguchi,
who should.
Crede and Iguchi are not our cleanup hitters, and neither of them led the team in homers last year.

doublem23
05-17-2005, 03:50 PM
I think Hangar is conviently forgetting that Ozzie Guillen did not want Carlos Lee to be a part of his ballclub, either.

balke
05-17-2005, 03:50 PM
Are you sure about that?

IIRC, Mike Jackson was a late invite to spring training and barely made the team. I don't think that fits your criteria of being brought as a cheaper alternative to the predecessor. Who was Jackson's predecessor?

He replaced the amazing Flash Gordon, who would've been worth every penny of the 5-6 million he wanted to stay in Chicago. And no, he wasn't meant to replace Flash. Politte was more than Jackson. The only thing that these players have in common is they all suck, and the afformentioned they all sucked once they left the Balco area. Who they replaced has nothing to do with anything. Thus...


:threadsucks


I hate watching the slow bat of Dye as much as the next guy at the moment, but Delgado and Walker were both people that were asked to come here and both said no. Dye looked like a great idea. Get a gold glove in the outfield, if he gets injured we have Anderson. He'll hit close to 30 hr's, and possibly .270-.280. Instead, he's below .200, has 4 errors, and K's more than he ever has before. I believe Jones was an idea floating around for the Sox, but Atlanta decided to keep him. If this thread is in anyway meant to bash Kenny it should be put in the Roadhouse. The man made unbelievable offseason moves.

Pods is arguably our best player. Hermanson is our best Closer, and may be the best in the League if he keeps playing like this. Iguchi is a top 5 2B in the Majors. Politte has made amazing strides (and as stated above was the true replacement for Flash) and both catchers we have look like big upgrades over Burke and Davis and Olivo.

What big $$$ RF was Kenny supposed to sign? Clee is off the table, since we traded him for better talent overall. Who Hanger? Do you want Beltran for his salary or greater? Sosa? I just want this organization to swallow some pride and start Anderson, if Dye keeps putting up donuts and K's all season.

California Sox
05-17-2005, 03:59 PM
I was in favor of getting Dye. I thought a lot of his problems over the last three years were attributable to playing in the Oakland Alemeda County Cavern. Looks like maybe I was wrong. The thing that sucks about it is we're on the hook to him for $6 mil for next year when there's no doubt in my mind that Anderson will be ready. I wonder how long we'll stick with Dye once Frank comes back. Everett isn't moving too well right now. It's hard to picture him playing everyday in the OF.

NorthlakeTom
05-17-2005, 04:14 PM
He replaced the amazing Flash Gordon, who would've been worth every penny of the 5-6 million he wanted to stay in Chicago. And no, he wasn't meant to replace Flash. Politte was more than Jackson. The only thing that these players have in common is they all suck, and the afformentioned they all sucked once they left the Balco area. Who they replaced has nothing to do with anything. Thus...
I agree completely about Gordon, especially considering what we paid for Koch.

I disagree that Jackson "sucked," though. Sure, he failed, but he was a 39 year old pitcher who played one more year than he should have. Happens to 99% of players. It's unfair to group him with Dye and Koch.

voodoochile
05-17-2005, 04:16 PM
Something tells me you'd be overjoyed if he hit .350 and 35 homers the rest of the year after beating your arse....
:bandance:

I too am willing to submit to a beatdown if it will help Dye get back on track, but if he doesn't hit at least 30 HR between the beatdown and the end of the season, I am going to come looking for him...

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2005, 04:19 PM
I too am willing to submit to a beatdown if it will help Dye get back on track, but if he doesn't hit at least 30 HR between the beatdown and the end of the season, I am going to come looking for him...

A beatdown with a cue ball inside a tube sock? :redneck

voodoochile
05-17-2005, 04:20 PM
A beatdown with a cue ball inside a tube sock? :redneck

That might require him to hit 40HR over the same period of time...:D:

batmanZoSo
05-17-2005, 04:30 PM
No, actually, it doesn't hurt at all because...

(drum roll please)

HE'S NOT PLAYING AND MAY NEVER PLAY AGAIN!!!:rolleyes:

When the Sox grabbed Dye almost everyone was damned happy about it. It looked like they had made a solid effort to replace a good portion of Magglio's (old-pre-injury-two-healthy-knees-and-a-decent-attitude) production. But, right now and at this time, Dye's production is infinitely better than Magglio's. It's not better than Lee's, but that's another topic...

Okay, here's that other topic...

Ah... Carlos Lee for Podsednik (and Vizcaino and AJ and El Duque and (the best hitter on the team this year) Iguchi). Yes, the Sox COULD have traded for Pods with less talent (in theory - though all we have to go on is your word) BUT (and like mine - it's a big one) they would still be paying Lee's salary which would have freed up a LOT less money to sign the guys they signed.

QUestion for you Hangar: Would the Sox be 27-12 without all the players they got with the money they were paying Lee?

You just can't have it both ways. Yes, we all want to see higher payroll, and you can go back to ripping on JR for being a cheap stingy bastard or not being Steinbrenner or whatever else comes to your foil encased brain, but given the Sox payroll constraints of $75M (and like it or not, it's just a fact of the moment) the Sox are MUCH better off without Lee and Magglio because the money was spent on more players to fill lots of holes on last year's team.

It's a dead horse Hangar... I repeat... IT'S DEAD!!! Stop beating it, it isn't going to move...

Well said. This year we got a lot of small acquisitions to fill the various holes on the team, so that next year if we're coming off a great season of playoffs and good attendance we can go out and maybe add a superstar or two for the final pieces of the puzzle. You can't expect a huge payroll with mediocre attendance, the money just isn't there.

Hangar18
05-17-2005, 04:44 PM
I too am willing to submit to a beatdown if it will help Dye get back on track, but if he doesn't hit at least 30 HR between the beatdown and the end of the season, I am going to come looking for him...


Paging Artie Fufkin ......... Mr Fufkin, please come to the SOX CLubhouse

LVSoxFan
05-17-2005, 04:45 PM
I'm not askin' ya, I'm TELLIN' ya! Kick my ___!

ma_deuce
05-17-2005, 04:51 PM
I wouldn't trade Podsednik back to Milwaukee straight up for Carlos Lee right now.

Amen to that, brother. Pods is the shot in the arm this team was looking for.

Malgar 12
05-17-2005, 10:53 PM
None of them have ever been in my kitchen?

Is that you Cliff?:D:

seanpmurphy
05-17-2005, 11:12 PM
None of them have ever been in my kitchen?

Totally a Cheers episode when Cliff was on Jeopardy!

It's definitely strange how I know that considering Cheers was not my generation.

JackParkman
05-18-2005, 12:35 AM
I'll bet we couldve traded just ONE of our very good minor leaguers for that package. Then again, that magnifies the way we overpaid to get Todd Ritchie. The money we supposedly "saved" is now going to be wasted on
a declining Jermaine Dye ............

1. You would have lost that bet. Milwaukee was looking for a major-league power hitter and looking to add payroll this offseason. They weren't interested in trading a pair of roster players for a minor leaguer.
2. Dye was signed before Lee was traded.
2. Carlos Lee at $8 million vs. Orlando Hernandez at $3.5 million, Scott Podsednik at $700K, Luis Vizcaino at $1.3 million, AJ Pierzynski at $2.25 million and Tadahito Iguchi at $2.3 million. Which do you like?

Tragg
05-18-2005, 12:40 AM
I guess what Im really saying is, did we REALLY NEED to trade Lee to get Podsednik? I guess its debatable what we couldve given up. Losing Ordonez production hurts big in this lineup.

No, but we needed to dump the salary - that was the point of the trade. Many suggested Konerko instead; trouble is, Lee had more trade value (which is why people wanted to dump konerko - lee's better).

thepaulbowski
05-18-2005, 08:17 AM
Carlos Lee in RF would strike fear into pitchers, all right. OUR PITCHERS.:o:

It only took him 5 years to learn how to play left field, maybe he could master right field a year before he retires.

santo=dorf
05-18-2005, 11:07 AM
I knew the answer as soon as I saw the title.

Wasn't Dye signed before the Lee trade? So how does he become Lee's replacement?
Hangar, all winter you were saying that Podsednik was Lee's cheaper replacement. Why has Dye become the cheap Lee replacement, because he isn't producing? :?: