PDA

View Full Version : *Official* Sox vs Rangers Postgame Rage thread 05-16-05


MRKARNO
05-16-2005, 10:10 PM
Rant 'n Rave here

Infallible
05-16-2005, 10:10 PM
never mind

Chicago83
05-16-2005, 10:11 PM
What was wrong with the bullpen?? They let up one run in 6 innings.

Frankfan4life
05-16-2005, 10:11 PM
On the positive side, we still have the best record in baseball. It's time for another eight-game winning streak.

MRKARNO
05-16-2005, 10:12 PM
I hope Ozzie brings out Hermanson here.
-Myself before Ozzie brought out Marte.

Parrothead
05-16-2005, 10:12 PM
Marte blew it again !!!!!!:angry: What is with him these days? He has been terrible.

Fake Chet Lemon
05-16-2005, 10:12 PM
Another dud on national TV. It was the primary Monday Night ESPN game tonight. Any doubt the game was over after AJ made the first out in the 9th? With Crede and Dye up there was NONE in my mind.

Cowhead418
05-16-2005, 10:12 PM
Blame the loss on me guys. I ran possibly my worst race of my freshman Track and Field Season today (5:13 mile) so that led to the loss tonight. I'm really sorry. Seriously though, why is that when our offense is starting to heat up that our pitching is starting to melt down? Our team ERA has skyrocketed these past three games.

Infallible
05-16-2005, 10:12 PM
Our starting pitching sucked again for the third game in a row. Our big guns couldn't even get the ball out of the infield. Our bullpen (Marte) was pathetic again......PK needs to find a spot on the bench....IN CHARLOTTE.

FarWestChicago
05-16-2005, 10:13 PM
-Myself before Ozzie brought out Marte.BFD.

halfpricemonday
05-16-2005, 10:13 PM
Wow. That bottom of the 9th was pretty bad. Could we have gone out any quieter?

Too bad it had to come to that to stay alive. A 3-1 mistake by Marte and that's all she wrote.

Blueprint1
05-16-2005, 10:13 PM
I hate this lineup. I know this team is just going to tear my heart out again.

SoxxoS
05-16-2005, 10:13 PM
Can't bring in your closer for 2 innings. You have to trust Marte to get the job done there.

Marte needs to get his control back to 2003 levels...he is walking way too many guys. 3-1 counts aren't the best counts to pitch from.

And Konerko looks great.

White Sox Josh
05-16-2005, 10:13 PM
Positives:
-Vizcaino
-Politte
-Shingo
-A.J.

Negatives:
-El Duque
-Marte
-Ozzie

Chicago83
05-16-2005, 10:14 PM
This loss can only be blamed on a bad start for Hernandez. Other than that I think we played pretty well. Managed 6 runs and shut them down for the later half of the game. There are always going to be outings like this. However this is the first one we've had this year, compared to last year when we had one every 5 games. I look forward to a quality start from Garland tomorrow. Looks like the offense finally starting to click.

SoxxoS
05-16-2005, 10:14 PM
I hate this lineup. I know this team is just going to tear my heart out again.

:prozac

NorthlakeTom
05-16-2005, 10:14 PM
The bullpen looked good except for Marte's mistake.

The game was lost by El Duque. Plain and simple. It seems the Sox can't win games when they score more than five runs. The hitters are producing, and the starters are faultering.

All I can say is, I hope El Duque and Garcia shake it off.

oeo
05-16-2005, 10:14 PM
On the positive side, we still have the best record in baseball. It's time for another eight-game winning streak.

3 game losing streaks have turned to 8 game winning streaks, so lets hope it happens again.

TaylorStSox
05-16-2005, 10:15 PM
Marte hasn't been the same pitcher since 2002. He's lost some velocity in his fastball and his breaking ball has nowhere near the movement it once did. It looks like a different pitch.

Right now, Politte's our 8th inning guy and Hermanson's the closer. The problem I have with that is that they're so similar (stuff wise). Over the long haul, they'll get exposed.

Taz
05-16-2005, 10:15 PM
How many hits have we given up in the last three games? I think double digits each...

mike squires
05-16-2005, 10:15 PM
That's a dissapointing loss right there. Take the next two and win the series. Crede had a ball right there and hit a dribbler to short. You might as well sit Konerko down until the second half, cause that's when he'll heat up.

Hartman
05-16-2005, 10:15 PM
Very winnable game but still blew it. Bullpen was great with the exception of Marte giving up the bomb to that meathead. :angry:

At LEAST TRY to make it look like you're making an effort to get on base in the 9th. :angry:

Chicago83
05-16-2005, 10:16 PM
Our starting pitching sucked again for the third game in a row. Our big guns couldn't even get the ball out of the infield. Our bullpen (Marte) was pathetic again......PK needs to find a spot on the bench....IN CHARLOTTE.

I don't understand how you can say our bullpen was pathetic. They gave up one run!!

I agree with one thing though, PK looks ugly. That swing he mad on a 3-2 count was just bad. I don't know what happened to him.

SoxxoS
05-16-2005, 10:16 PM
This is why KW has to be thinking Billy Wagner and/or another LH bullpen arm. Hermanson would be just fine setting up as well.

That being said, Marte needs to get the job done.

SOXfnNlansing
05-16-2005, 10:17 PM
at least cotts/viz didn't blow it this game........ pk needs to move down to 7th in the lineup..... timo/ozuna need to give dye a week or 2 off in right

SoxxoS
05-16-2005, 10:18 PM
I don't understand how you can say our bullpen was pathetic. They gave up one run!!

I agree with one thing though, PK looks ugly. That swing he mad on a 3-2 count was just bad. I don't know what happened to him.

We can't afford Paulie of 2003.

Frank...we need you. Right now, Ross Gload 1B/Thomas DH is looking like a very solid option.

At least Rowand looks to be coming alive.

FarWestChicago
05-16-2005, 10:18 PM
I don't understand how you can say our bullpen was pathetic. They gave up one run!! Hey, another sane guy snuck in. :o:

Whitesox029
05-16-2005, 10:18 PM
I'm not going to whine about run support or getting on base on any night when we score 6 runs, even if 4 of them come on one swing. If the pitching continues to fail us like this we're going to have an awfully difficult time winning games.
Days until ESPN begins talking about "weaknesses becoming apparent" and switches their collective pick back to the Twins:
2
Edit: I give credit where credit is due. Tonight it goes to everyone except Hernandez and Marte.

Cowhead418
05-16-2005, 10:19 PM
One bad thing about having the best record in baseball early and winning a lot early on is that you become spoiled. You expect to win every game and when you go on even a short losing streak you become paranoid. We have to stop getting used to winning at a > .700 clip or we will all have heart attacks before the All-Star Break. Our pitching isn't going to be amazing every game either.

shaunburnette
05-16-2005, 10:19 PM
:supernana:At least the Tada "Hit" O Meter went up!!!:supernana:

Kogs35
05-16-2005, 10:19 PM
Tomorow garland baby ozzie please no more willie harris i dont care how willie did tonight. if iguchi needs a day off plus use ozuna.


go garland
go sox

SOXfnNlansing
05-16-2005, 10:20 PM
I'm in full panic mode now! I will die with this team though. Just alot of time invested early and I'm feeling a slip now.

popilius
05-16-2005, 10:20 PM
We can't afford Paulie of 2003.

Frank...we need you. Right now, Ross Gload 1B/Thomas DH is looking like a very solid option.

At least Rowand looks to be coming alive.

You're right. If Konerko and Dye can't hit for some kind of average, we desperately need Big Frank.

C'mon Garland!. . . do it again for us tomorrow!. . . please. . .

:(:

cheeses_h_rice
05-16-2005, 10:20 PM
2 things:

I hope El Duque isn't developing Jon Garland pre-2005 disease (i.e. Nibbler's Disease).

And will Paul Konerko please show up? Please?

hose
05-16-2005, 10:21 PM
I never thought I would miss Gload so much.

Konerko is back to his 2003 form and Dye isn't much better. :o:

jeremydavid
05-16-2005, 10:21 PM
We are 27-12. If you thought the starting pitching was gonna have 3.00 ERA overall all year or that The Duke was gonna keep up his 2.50 ERA you needed this loss.

El Duque had a 1.51 WHIP coming into this game. The walks and hits finally caught up to him. He has decent stuff but his ERA is not gonna be that low and he will have bad outings.

NorthlakeTom
05-16-2005, 10:21 PM
Marte made one mistake, for Pete's sake!

His ERA was about 2.00 coming in, and didn't he strike out two of the four batters he faced?

Marte didn't blow the game. Hernandez did.

Malgar 12
05-16-2005, 10:22 PM
Can't bring in your closer for 2 innings. You have to trust Marte to get the job done there.

Marte needs to get his control back to 2003 levels...he is walking way too many guys. 3-1 counts aren't the best counts to pitch from.

And Konerko looks great.

I agree, Marte also needs to be smart enough to give a walk before grooving one to Mench on a 3-1 count.

FarWestChicago
05-16-2005, 10:22 PM
I'm in full panic mode now! I will die with this team though. Just alot of time invested early and I'm feeling a slip now.Please keep post game freak out posts in the designated thread so we don't have to move them. Thanks.

oeo
05-16-2005, 10:22 PM
I'm not going to whine about run support or getting on base on any night when we score 6 runs, even if 4 of them come on one swing. If the pitching continues to fail us like this we're going to have an awfully difficult time winning games.
Days until ESPN begins talking about "weaknesses becoming apparent" and switches their collective pick back to the Twins:
2
Edit: I give credit where credit is due. Tonight it goes to everyone except Hernandez and Marte.

I'm sure they already have...on ESPNEWS during the game I heard something before a break like, "Are the Sox for real? Find out if it's time for panic in the Windy City with Harold Reynolds." I didn't hear the actual story but I did hear Harold yell out, "YES!" right before the break.

oeo
05-16-2005, 10:23 PM
I'm in full panic mode now! I will die with this team though. Just alot of time invested early and I'm feeling a slip now.

:chickenlittle
That is ridiculous, bad starts are going to happen to all starters...El Duque had a bad game, as did Freddy a couple of nights ago, I have faith that they won't repeat.

voodoochile
05-16-2005, 10:24 PM
I'm disappointed with any loss but when your starter goes 2.2 innings looks like **** and gives up 6 runs you don't normally expect to win. The fact that the team kept fighting back and managed to tie it again speaks volumes for the strides they have made as a team since last season.

Garland and Buehrle before a much needed day off. We'll get 'em tomorrow...

ChiSoxGirl
05-16-2005, 10:24 PM
This reminded me of one of "those other 42" that Hawk speaks of. Unfortunately, this was one of "those other 42" that goes in the right hand column. :angry:

El Duque wasn't on at all tonight. I don't have cable, so I listened to the game, and it seemed like everything of his was called "high" or "up," and that will not will ballgames.

On the plus side, Vizcaino and Pollitte were fantastic out of the 'pen, and even Shingo held his own. Offensively, Pierzynski picked us up early on with that Slam, in what I had a feeling was going to be a wild one tonight. Unfortunately, El Duque didn't hold the 3-run lead and not enough of the offense is clicking right now to overcome the deficit sooner than they did.

Konerko is one of my favorite players on the team (and I own his jersey), but the guy needs a day off something awful, if for no other reason than to clear his mind. I've seen him go down on strikes a lot over the last couple days, and he was evidently frustrated yesterday afternoon when he threw everything after his at-bat.

I think we all need :gulp: right now....

All I can say is we'll get 'em tomorrow with Jon Garland on the mound. I'll be there- Sec. 118, Row 14. :smile:

TaylorStSox
05-16-2005, 10:24 PM
I agree Marte also need to be smart enough to give a walk before grooving one to Mench on a 3-1 count.


I agree with you. However, it's clear that Marte's not the same pitcher he once was. His stuff isn't the same. His control is worse. He has nowhere near the moxy that he once had. I'm not saying that he can't and won't be effective. Nonetheless, there's still cause for concern.

Fake Chet Lemon
05-16-2005, 10:25 PM
Does Ozzie realize he is allowed to drop Konerko down in the order? You want him to play through it, OK fine. But in the middle of the order? Jeez.

Mohoney
05-16-2005, 10:26 PM
Nice to see Vizcaino and Shingo with scoreless outings.

I'm not worried yet. We're still 4.5 games up. Maybe Garland can go to 8-0 tomorrow, Buehrle is on Wednesday, and we end up on the plus side for the homestand.

Even if it doesn't happen, everybody is going to have a subpar homestand at some point.

What would worry me, however, is if we do absolutely nothing against a very mediocre Pedro Astacio.

Edit: Buehrle goes Wednesday, Freddy doesn't go until Friday.

MRKARNO
05-16-2005, 10:27 PM
El Duque was by far the most responsible for this loss. Not the offense. Not Damaso Marte. El Duque was as crappy as ever.

The bullpen was awesome, Marte's longball notwithstanding. 6.1 IP 1 ER. I wish El Duque had been that good!

Dont blame the offense. 6 runs was a fine output for this offense. If we're losing when we're scoring six runs, we're in trouble with this offense.

Marte should not have started the 9th. There were two options in the bullpen, one of which was better than the other. Hermanson is the go-to guy in high leverage situations. When the game is tied, you want your best reliever on the hill because if you get down, things like what happened would happen. Ozzie went to the second option with the hope of saving Hermanson for later. Marte wasn't a bad second option, but he wasn't the best out there. This enabled the Rangers to take advantage and make sure that there was no "later" for Hermanson.

I know some are going to try and twist this into "he is blaming Marte for the loss." I'm not. El Duque gets the largest share of blame. But the call to Marte over Hermanson probably had something to do with the loss as well.

flo-B-flo
05-16-2005, 10:27 PM
I don't understand how you can say our bullpen was pathetic. They gave up one run!!

I agree with one thing though, PK looks ugly. That swing he mad on a 3-2 count was just bad. I don't know what happened to him. What swing, he ducked on a curve ball. A nasty one at that.

voodoochile
05-16-2005, 10:27 PM
Does Ozzie realize he is allowed to drop Konerko down in the order? You want him to play through it, OK fine. But in the middle of the order? Jeez.

Who bats 4th? Maybe he is slumping but he still leads the team in HR by a large margin.

seanpmurphy
05-16-2005, 10:29 PM
Marte made one mistake, for Pete's sake!

His ERA was about 2.00 coming in, and didn't he strike out two of the four batters he faced?

Marte didn't blow the game. Hernandez did.

Good point. 6 runs over 2 2/3 innings is inexcusable if you're "The Duke"

Another glorious 3 AB, 2 strikeout day for Konerko too...

Fake Chet Lemon
05-16-2005, 10:29 PM
:supernana:At least the Tada "Hit" O Meter went up!!!:supernana:


Wow was that clutch! Too bad it'll be forgotten in the loss, our pinch hitters had been BRUTAL before that shot.

FarWestChicago
05-16-2005, 10:30 PM
I know some are going to try and twist this into "he is blaming Marte for the loss." I'm not. El Duque gets the largest share of blame. But the call to Marte over Hermanson probably had something to do with the loss as well.No, but you have been trying to make yourself out as a "genius" for calling for Hermanson. Give it a rest before you tear your labrum patting yourself on the back. I guarantee one thing. Hermanson won't finish the season with a 0.00 ERA. You don't know what would have happened.

Parrothead
05-16-2005, 10:30 PM
Another dud on national TV. It was the primary Monday Night ESPN game tonight. Any doubt the game was over after AJ made the first out in the 9th? With Crede and Dye up there was NONE in my mind.

That's right I forgot the game was a national game. They can't seem to play in the national spotlight.

mike squires
05-16-2005, 10:31 PM
One bad thing about having the best record in baseball early and winning a lot early on is that you become spoiled. You expect to win every game and when you go on even a short losing streak you become paranoid. We have to stop getting used to winning at a > .700 clip or we will all have heart attacks before the All-Star Break. Our pitching isn't going to be amazing every game either.

I said this very thing to my wife tonight. You do get spoiled and expect to win.

Is anyone tired of hearing DJ say, "I can't wait for this offense to start clicking." Seems like he's been saying it for weeks.

Jjav829
05-16-2005, 10:31 PM
Few things. I'm extremely pissed off, but I'm not gonna panic.

- I don't quite understand the Marte move. The save situation is gone once you enter the top of the 9th tied. That's where Hermanson should be in IMO.

- I look forward to the days when we have a rightfielder that can hit. It's been way too long. Dye sucks.

- The pen was solid. You can't complain too much because El Duque was just terrible. He put the pen in a tough situation.

- This is the first time where we're going through a stretch in the rotation and seeing some struggles. Hopefully Garland and Buehrle turn that around. These are also probably the two best offenses we've faced so far. Against some of the weaker offenses, El Duque's high WHIP wasn't exposed much. You can get away with that against the Devil Rays. The Rangers are gonna make you pay, though.

- Dye sucks. It's worth repeating.

- Ditto for Konerko. I'm not exactly a big Ross Gload supporter, but I'm opening to the idea of him playing more often when he gets back. Clearly a move is going to have to be made if Dye and Konerko continue to go like this.

DC Sox Fan
05-16-2005, 10:32 PM
Right after Damaso grooved that 3-0 pitch to Uncle Fester, I said to my roommates "at least he got 1 strike so he can groove the next one."


I hate being right :angry:

http://www.dallasnews.com/s/dws/img/standing/sports/baseball/mugs2004/mug_kmench.jpg=http://www.splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/Pics/eatlight.jpg

NorthlakeTom
05-16-2005, 10:32 PM
I agree with you. However, it's clear that Marte's not the same pitcher he once was. His stuff isn't the same. His control is worse. He has nowhere near the moxy that he once had. I'm not saying that he can't and won't be effective. Nonetheless, there's still cause for concern.
I'll take your word for it, since I listen to rather than watch the games.

But...he gave up a homer, a broken bat bloop single and struck out two batters. His ERA has "ballooned" to 2.40. If the Sox had been up by two, I bet many here would be praising his striking out two batters.

Perhaps he is less effective than before, but I just don't see it.

Cellview22
05-16-2005, 10:33 PM
Nice to see Vizcaino and Shingo with scoreless outings.

I'm not worried yet. We're still 4.5 games up. Maybe Garland can go to 8-0 tomorrow, Freddy can right the ship Wednesday, and we end up on the plus side for the homestand.

Even if it doesn't happen, everybody is going to have a subpar homestand at some point.

What would worry me, however, is if we do absolutely nothing against a very mediocre Pedro Astacio.

Is Freddy really pitching on Wednesday? Are they saving Buehrle for the Cubs series?

I hate this feeling of losing.. I'm not used to it.
But any type of losing streak kills me. It gets me nervous thinking about possibly going on a long losing streak. Not saying we will but the thought is there :(: .

Fake Chet Lemon
05-16-2005, 10:33 PM
Who bats 4th? Maybe he is slumping but he still leads the team in HR by a large margin.

I'd rather see AJ bat 4th right now, especially with Rowand batting right handed in front of him. How many of those HR's were in the first two weeks too?

Cowhead418
05-16-2005, 10:34 PM
I know the reason we lost. Our pitchers love to give up 3-run lead. Buehrle gave up two 3-run leads in one Oakland game, Contreras blew one in Tampa Bay, Freddy blew one against Baltimore and El Duque blew one here. We need to either go up by 4 or by 2. Then we will win. No more 3-run leads please.

oeo
05-16-2005, 10:35 PM
Is Freddy really pitching on Wednesday? Are they saving Buehrle for the Cubs series?

I hate this feeling of losing.. I'm not used to it.
But any type of losing streak kills me. It gets me nervous thinking about possibly going on a long losing streak. Not saying we will but the thought is there :(: .

How are you not used to losing? The team hasn't won a World Series since 1917 for crying out loud and we've blown the last two seasons...I sure as hell am used to it, but I do hate it.

EDIT: And like Ozzie said at the beginning of the season, this team won't go on long losing streaks because we have a great staff. We still do, whether or not Freddy or El Duque had a couple of bad starts. Lets start a winning streak with Jon tomorrow!

shaunburnette
05-16-2005, 10:36 PM
Nobody must have heard me the first time.

Stop thinking about only bad things... At least the Tada "Hit" O Meter is on the rise!

hose
05-16-2005, 10:36 PM
I'm not really worried about the pitching as a whole, at least McCarthy is a viable option. But it's gotten to where the middle of the line up is just flat out sucking.

I would like to see Anderson at least get a chance to play right. His production couldn't be any worse than Dye's and his glove would be a bonus.

Not much we can do at first beside Ross Gload when he gets back healthy. And Ross would only be used to give Konerko a day off from time to time. I wish Paulie would produce like most players going into their free agent year do .

Big Hurt's bat will be great addition eventually.

voodoochile
05-16-2005, 10:36 PM
I'd rather see AJ bat 4th right now, especially with Rowand batting right handed in front of him.

I got an idea, let's just turn over the whole lineup every few weeks so that whoever is hot bats 4th.

Oohhh.... I need an aspirin. Why do I come to these post loss threads especially when the team has lost more than one in a row...:?:

MRKARNO
05-16-2005, 10:37 PM
I guarantee one thing. Hermanson won't finish the season with a 0.00 ERA. You don't know what would have happened.

He won't finish with a 0 ERA. That's (99.99999%) a sure thing. And I don't know what would have happened. But I dont think it's a stretch to say that he's been the best we've got up to this point, which is all that we can base it on, while Marte had been El Duque-like in that he had given up a very high number of baserunners in spite of a low ERA. Again, a decision that I dissagreed with at the time that just so happened to be the right call. Ozzie's been right more often than I have up to this point; that's why he has the 27-12 team and I'm sitting here on a message board, but I think he goofed again. I'm not too upset with him on the whole and I do understand where he was coming from with this decision, but it's just one I dissagreed with.

NorthlakeTom
05-16-2005, 10:38 PM
I know some are going to try and twist this into "he is blaming Marte for the loss." I'm not. El Duque gets the largest share of blame. But the call to Marte over Hermanson probably had something to do with the loss as well.
I generally agree with this (and the rest of your post that I snipped). However, keep in mind that Hermanson is going to give up a run before the season is over. A similar situation to tonight's is bound to happen, and Hermanson will be on the losing end.

El Duque threw batting practice. Actually, he threw BP but couldn't find the plate. That's why the sox lost.

Fake Chet Lemon
05-16-2005, 10:39 PM
I got an idea, let's just turn over the whole lineup every few weeks so that whoever is hot bats 4th.

Oohhh.... I need an aspirin. Why do I come to these post loss threads especially when the team has lost more than one in a row...:?:

Konerko has been sucking for a LONG TIME in case not everyone has noticed. Suggesting he move down in the order isn't completely insane. I'm not even calling for his benching, I think that makes me very reasonable.

samram
05-16-2005, 10:39 PM
- Ditto for Konerko. I'm not exactly a big Ross Gload supporter, but I'm opening to the idea of him playing more often when he gets back. Clearly a move is going to have to be made if Dye and Konerko continue to go like this.

I say bring back Brian Daubach.:D:

Well, the great thing about starting 27-9 is that the team has some leeway for a mini-slide. They have their two best SPs the next two days, so there's a good chance to get some momentum before the Cubs series.

mjmcend
05-16-2005, 10:39 PM
Is Freddy really pitching on Wednesday? Are they saving Buehrle for the Cubs series?


No Mark is starting on wednesday. They are not changing up the rotation for the cubs, and I don't think they should.

oeo
05-16-2005, 10:40 PM
I got an idea, let's just turn over the whole lineup every few weeks so that whoever is hot bats 4th.

Oohhh.... I need an aspirin. Why do I come to these post loss threads especially when the team has lost more than one in a row...:?:

I'm thinking the same thing...we lose 3 games in a row for what...only the second time all season? Come on guys, you're going to complain that the media is saying we just had a fast start, but you guys have gone into panic mode. Relax, we're 27-12! 15 games over .500! WOO!

Isn't that something to be excited about, instead of whining that we lost a few?

CLR01
05-16-2005, 10:41 PM
Who bats 4th? Maybe he is slumping but he still leads the team in HR by a large margin.


What good is having power if you can't make contact with the ball? Of those 9 hr 7 of them came before 4/20. Since then he has hit 2 (both in the same game) and he is 10 for 84. Get him out of the 4 spot.

Fake Chet Lemon
05-16-2005, 10:43 PM
What good is having power if you can't make contact with the ball? Of those 9 hr 7 of them came before 4/20. Since then he has hit 2 (both in the same game) and he is 10 for 84. Get him out of the 4 spot.

Another voice of reason, nice post.

batmanZoSo
05-16-2005, 10:46 PM
Can't bring in your closer for 2 innings. You have to trust Marte to get the job done there.

Marte needs to get his control back to 2003 levels...he is walking way too many guys. 3-1 counts aren't the best counts to pitch from.

And Konerko looks great.

Marte has been pretty good all year, every reliever's gonna have a night like this. I don't remember him blowing a game like this before tonight, so I cut him a break.

We just can't win slugfests.

NorthlakeTom
05-16-2005, 10:47 PM
Okay, here are some stats to cheer everyone up:

Vizcaino's ERA is under 7
Shingo's is under 6
Politte's is fast approaching 1.00, and he's struck out 21 batters in 15 innings

NorthlakeTom
05-16-2005, 10:48 PM
Maybe KW can hire Reggie Jackson to work with Konerko once he's done with Giambi.

voodoochile
05-16-2005, 10:51 PM
What good is having power if you can't make contact with the ball? Of those 9 hr 7 of them came before 4/20. Since then he has hit 2 (both in the same game) and he is 10 for 84. Get him out of the 4 spot.

Not until a viable alternative appears. The Sox don't have one. PK's been scuffling recently (to use a Hawkism). He's had a whole mess of line drives go just foul, way gone but foul (like tonight) or right to somebody.

There aren't any great alternatives right now. In a week or two Frank comes back. So long as Everett and Dye are hurting, the team is going to seriously struggle to score runs. PK needs some protection, but the Sox don't have a cleanup hitter right now.

The best alternative is probably to put Everett fourth and bat PK 5th, but I don't know if that will help or hurt with Everett stuggling and not 100%.

It's easy to say, "move him down" but to do that, you have to have a viable plan. How far down? Who bats fourth? AJ? Why? Because he has had a couple of good games the last week? Because he hit a grand slam on an 85 MPH belt high FATball?

Let's not create further problems by starting to panic. Ride the wave and hope the team starts to hit and that when Frank comes back, some of the offensive problems become a thing of the past.

FarWestChicago
05-16-2005, 10:54 PM
But I dont think it's a stretch to say that he's been the best we've got up to this point, which is all that we can base it on, while Marte had been El Duque-like in that he had given up a very high number of baserunners in spite of a low ERA. Again, a decision that I dissagreed with at the time that just so happened to be the right call.You do NOT know that. Hermanson could have come in and gotten shelled. Get over yourself. You're not being logical. You are making an assumption to prove your "brilliance".

Tekk
05-16-2005, 10:54 PM
Alot of you are overreacting, It's impossible to win every single game the white sox take part in. Not even the bazillion dollar a year yankee roster can win every game of every year.

Jerko
05-16-2005, 10:54 PM
PK is always batting with 2 strikes on him lately it seems. Hopefully a hit or 2 will fall in and he can be back to his old self. Even with his (and Dye's) struggles, the Sox are still 15 over. I'm not too worried. They have to come around eventually......... If the pitching stays consistent they'll be fine.

batmanZoSo
05-16-2005, 10:55 PM
Is Freddy really pitching on Wednesday? Are they saving Buehrle for the Cubs series?

I hate this feeling of losing.. I'm not used to it.
But any type of losing streak kills me. It gets me nervous thinking about possibly going on a long losing streak. Not saying we will but the thought is there :(: .

If the starter does his job, we're probably around 80% likely to win the game as our record shows. Look at the Baltimore series, we gave up 3 and 2 in the first two games and won by scratching out just enough runs to take the lead late. Then we gave up 9 and 6 and lost both games to Baltimore. Tonight we gave up 7 and lost. Most teams aren't going to win the majority of the games where they give up 6 runs or more, but we'll lose the vast majority of them for sure.

If the starter lays a turd--like Hernandez, Garcia and Contreras in consecutive nights--well, whattya gonna do?

I'm not bothered, this happens to every rotation over the course of a season. Just as long as these pitchers have gotten their garbage outings out of their systems and get ready for the cubs. I'll be there Friday and they better ****in' win. And win the series.

Viva Medias B's
05-16-2005, 10:57 PM
Key talking points:

I hope Garcia, Contreras, and Hernandez pitch better in their next starts. If they don't, evil will triumph once again.
Konerko has to start hitting, especially with some of the pitching going south.
I was impressed with Vizcaino and Politte out of the bullpen. Hopefully, we can get this good relief out of Vizcaino when the game is on the line.
This next few series will not make or break us, but it could tell us a lot.

batmanZoSo
05-16-2005, 10:57 PM
Not until a viable alternative appears. The Sox don't have one. PK's been scuffling recently (to use a Hawkism). He's had a whole mess of line drives go just foul, way gone but foul (like tonight) or right to somebody.

There aren't any great alternatives right now. In a week or two Frank comes back. So long as Everett and Dye are hurting, the team is going to seriously struggle to score runs. PK needs some protection, but the Sox don't have a cleanup hitter right now.

The best alternative is probably to put Everett fourth and bat PK 5th, but I don't know if that will help or hurt with Everett stuggling and not 100%.

It's easy to say, "move him down" but to do that, you have to have a viable plan. How far down? Who bats fourth? AJ? Why? Because he has had a couple of good games the last week? Because he hit a grand slam on an 85 MPH belt high FATball?

Let's not create further problems by starting to panic. Ride the wave and hope the team starts to hit and that when Frank comes back, some of the offensive problems become a thing of the past.

You're right, there is no option. There's nothing you can do but sit here at you computer seething...like me! :D:

Seriously, Konerko sucks. I hope this is his last year here.

Mohoney
05-16-2005, 11:00 PM
Key talking points:

I hope Garcia, Contreras, and Hernandez pitch better in their next starts. If they don't, evil will triumph once again.
Yup. Maybe these guys got the bad ones out of their systems and will deal this weekend.

Going cold now is fine, as long as we start heating back up Friday.

MRKARNO
05-16-2005, 11:00 PM
You do NOT know that. Hermanson could have come in and gotten shelled. Get over yourself. You're not being logical. You are making an assumption to prove your "brilliance".

Of course I dont know that. Cotts could have come in and given up 4 runs and the Sox could have scored 5 in the bottom half of the inning to win the game in dramatic fashion. The best you can hope for is to play the percentages.

I never claimed to "know" that Hermanson would not have given up that homer. Hell he might not have in the first inning and then he comes out for a second and gives up 3 runs and puts the Sox in an even worse position.

Whatever, we werent going to hold on to that shiny record in one-run games forever. I'll just drop it here.

voodoochile
05-16-2005, 11:01 PM
You're right, there is no option. There's nothing you can do but sit here at you computer seething...like me! :D:

Seriously, Konerko sucks. I hope this is his last year here.

I'm not seething... disappointed, but in a way I am still pretty calm. That could have been really ugly. The Sox kept it reasonable and then fought back to tie. Marte made a mistake and Urbina was lights out.

Yeah, moral victories suck, but as losses go, this one could have been emotionally a lot worse.

elrod
05-16-2005, 11:02 PM
Games like this make me feel like...
:cuss::mad::angry:

NorthlakeTom
05-16-2005, 11:03 PM
Konerko needs a day or two off more than anything. Clear his head, and he has a better chance to snap out of it. Unfortunately, that's impossible right now. Didn't Burke play a few games at first last year? If I have to disagree with management on a decision, it was the move sending Burke back down and calling up that lefty. I don't recall if Burke was any good with the glove at first, but someone needs to give Konerko some time off. Anybody know when Gload is coming back?

TaylorStSox
05-16-2005, 11:04 PM
Of course I dont know that. Cotts could have come in and given up 4 runs and the Sox could have scored 5 in the bottom half of the inning to win the game in dramatic fashion. The best you can hope for is to play the percentages.

I never claimed to "know" that Hermanson would not have given up that homer. Hell he might not have in the first inning and then he comes out for a second and gives up 3 runs and puts the Sox in an even worse position.

Why does Cotts get so much flack? Look up Cotts numbers and compare them to Marte's. They're very similar but the views about the year they're having contrast so much.

MRKARNO
05-16-2005, 11:06 PM
Why does Cotts get so much flack? Look up Cotts numbers and compare them to Marte's. They're very similar but the views about the year they're having contrast so much.

Because Marte is pitching worse than he normally does and Cotts is pitching better than usual.

CHISOXFAN13
05-16-2005, 11:07 PM
Konerko needs a day or two off more than anything. Clear his head, and he has a better chance to snap out of it. Unfortunately, that's impossible right now. Didn't Burke play a few games at first last year? If I have to disagree with management on a decision, it was the move sending Burke back down and calling up that lefty. I don't recall if Burke was any good with the glove at first, but someone needs to give Konerko some time off. Anybody know when Gload is coming back?


The Sox have needed the extra depth in the bullpen the past five days. If not for Walker pitching some innings this weekend, the bully would be taxed right now.

infohawk
05-16-2005, 11:12 PM
This loss can only be blamed on a bad start for Hernandez. Other than that I think we played pretty well. Managed 6 runs and shut them down for the later half of the game. There are always going to be outings like this. However this is the first one we've had this year, compared to last year when we had one every 5 games. I look forward to a quality start from Garland tomorrow. Looks like the offense finally starting to click.

Spot on. The offense was good, despite not getting any hits from Paulie or Carl. The bullpen went 6 innings, gave up one run and had 9 strikeouts. And Iguchi, wow!

We played well in all facets of the game except for our starting pitching, which, unfortunately, is what cost us the game. Well, every starter is going to have a bad outing every now and then. No getting around that. We've unfortunately had three so-so to bad starts in a row, and not coincidentally, three losses. The good news is that the Sox can maintain their momentum if they win the next two. Just keep winning each series. The split against Baltimore was neutral. Not a series victory, but not a series loss.

Our expectations are so high that, assuming the Sox were to win the series against Texas, we will focus on the three consecutive losses instead of splitting a four game series against a really good team and winning the next series. Splitting a four game series and winning the next series hardly constitutes a slump.

Anyway, I don't want to get ahead of myself regarding the next two games. Jon and Mark need to go out and shut 'em down!

CLR01
05-16-2005, 11:14 PM
Not until a viable alternative appears. The Sox don't have one. PK's been scuffling recently (to use a Hawkism). He's had a whole mess of line drives go just foul, way gone but foul (like tonight) or right to somebody.

There aren't any great alternatives right now. In a week or two Frank comes back. So long as Everett and Dye are hurting, the team is going to seriously struggle to score runs. PK needs some protection, but the Sox don't have a cleanup hitter right now.

The best alternative is probably to put Everett fourth and bat PK 5th, but I don't know if that will help or hurt with Everett stuggling and not 100%.

It's easy to say, "move him down" but to do that, you have to have a viable plan. How far down? Who bats fourth? AJ? Why? Because he has had a couple of good games the last week? Because he hit a grand slam on an 85 MPH belt high FATball?

Let's not create further problems by starting to panic. Ride the wave and hope the team starts to hit and that when Frank comes back, some of the offensive problems become a thing of the past.



You can ride that wave as long as you want, I am going to jump off before it crashes against the rock. Konerko should not be batting 4th right now. The offense is not clicking right now and we certainly can't afford an automatic out in the 4th spot. Move him down to the 5th or 6th spot and move Everett and AJ or whoever else Ozzy is currently hitting 6th and see what happens. If it doesn't work what have we lost?


Correction to my last post it is 13-84.

NorthlakeTom
05-16-2005, 11:14 PM
The Sox have needed the extra depth in the bullpen the past five days. If not for Walker pitching some innings this weekend, the bully would be taxed right now.
Perhaps, but he pitched only 1 2/3 innings. Vizcaino and Marte are each good for 70+ games per year, so I still don't completely agree with the move bringing up Walker. I do trust management, though. I'm sure they have valid reasons for promoting the lefty.

ChicagoHoosier
05-16-2005, 11:14 PM
For those saying our offense is clicking, we are one swing away from losing this game 7-2. AJ may have hit the grannie when the time was right, but it was only after Park allowed two free passes. Park was able to keep his composure and pitch a solid game while El Duque just kept falling apart. I commented to my buddy at the game tonight about how he allows too many runners, and they hit him too hard tonight for him to get away with it. It was just a bad, bad game.

But, there are so many positives, and keeps coming back to my point I've been posting so far this year... We keep finding ways to stay in the game and have a chance to win, and that keeps my hopes up every single game. I will never leave a game early with this team.

Other thoughts (mostly already made)... Bullpen tough, bad break for Marte but you get that falling behind, still behind this team, and I definately want to see Paulie in a Sox uni next year. I want him to figure this out, break out of it, and play the rest of this month and year like we know he can.
Very disappointed in El Duque. He's the veteran who is supposed to stop 2 games slides, not give up six earned runs early. But everyone has a bad night.

Finally, the 300 section ROCKS!!! My first experience there and ate way too much just cuz I could.

pmck003
05-16-2005, 11:17 PM
Konerko needs a day or two off more than anything. Clear his head, and he has a better chance to snap out of it. Unfortunately, that's impossible right now. Didn't Burke play a few games at first last year? If I have to disagree with management on a decision, it was the move sending Burke back down and calling up that lefty. I don't recall if Burke was any good with the glove at first, but someone needs to give Konerko some time off. Anybody know when Gload is coming back?

I don't know if him sitting on the bench would be any good either though, I would guess that he is seeing the ball alright (.331 obp, not bad considering his average). I hope they stay patient with him for a little while longer.

infohawk
05-16-2005, 11:18 PM
El Duque threw batting practice. Actually, he threw BP but couldn't find the plate. That's why the sox lost.

Remember when El Duque threw batting practice against the Sox to give us the sweep in New York back in 2000? The Sox scored a ton of runs off of him in the first couple of innings (maybe even just the first inning) en route to a blowout victory to cap off that seven game roadtrip where the Sox swept the Indians and Yankees. As good as he is, he will have the occasional "stinker." At least he will be fresh for the Cubs series.:cool:

Jjav829
05-16-2005, 11:19 PM
You're right, there is no option. There's nothing you can do but sit here at you computer seething...like me! :D:

Seriously, Konerko sucks. I hope this is his last year here.

Konerko isn't even the biggest problem. Jermaine Dye (or even Timo Perez) is.

A .194 average is obviously never acceptable. However, Konerko is still walking at a great rate. Despite that average, he has 25 walks and a .331 OBP. So he's still getting on base at a decent rate and he's not taking his struggles at the plate out with him to the field. Dye on the other hand is hitting a miserable .198 and has only walked 5 times all year. On top of that, his defense hasn't been all that good. Even when he sits, Timo is a crappy replacement. We don't have a legitimate RF right now. The bigger problem is I don't know how we can get rid of this bum. Even if you assume that we could find a viable option for right - or even better, a player like Huff - what the hell do we do with Dye? He's still under contract for 2006 at $5 million. Who's going to want that? On top of all this, it's not like Dye is a lock to break out of this slump. We're not talking about a great player who's just had a bad 6 weeks. This is a guy who in just 65 games in 2003 hit just .172. In 2002, he hit just .252 over 131 games. Last year he was better, but at .265 he wasn't exactly tearing the cover off the ball. There's no guarantee that Dye is going to get much better. We've got some trouble in right field.

chisoxmike
05-16-2005, 11:21 PM
Un****ing believeable. I was speechless walking out of the game tonight.

How better could've it gotten? Pinch hit-game tying home run, and a come back win.

But no, Marte blows another one.

:angry:

I said to my friend after the first inning, "if we dont score or hit Park around in the 2nd or 3rd, we will lose this game." Sure enough.

D. TODD
05-16-2005, 11:23 PM
I'm amazed at how many people want drastic changes after a loss! El Duque had nothing and he got rocked, it happens, he has been solid to this point and the pen was great we had a chance to pull the game out.

Konerko is in a terrible funk. I think we have seen this before, hopefully it won't be as prolonged as 2003. A drop in the order may be helpful.

Marte has been fine, he pitched well tonight, but made a huge mistake. Overall I like how he has thrown the ball this year, and he will be solid for this team.

Ozzie made the right call in my opinion going to Marte, he also went against the book and made a hell of a decision to pinch hit Iguichi even though there was a right hander on the mound to face lefthanded hitting Willie. It was a very winnable game, but in no way needs a major shake-up of the pen or the lineup. I thought we were grinder ball this year, I don't think grinders panic over a tough loss. They come back the next night and grind out a win!

NorthlakeTom
05-16-2005, 11:25 PM
Konerko isn't even the biggest problem. Jermaine Dye (or even Timo Perez) is.

A .194 average is obviously never acceptable. However, Konerko is still walking at a great rate. Despite that average, he has 25 walks and a .331 OBP. So he's still getting on base at a decent rate and he's not taking his struggles at the plate out with him to the field. Dye on the other hand is hitting a miserable .198 and has only walked 5 times all year. On top of that, his defense hasn't been all that good. Even when he sits, Timo is a crappy replacement. We don't have a legitimate RF right now. The bigger problem is I don't know how we can get rid of this bum. Even if you assume that we could find a viable option for right - or even better, a player like Huff - what the hell do we do with Dye? He's still under contract for 2006 at $5 million. Who's going to want that? On top of all this, it's not like Dye is a lock to break out of this slump. We're not talking about a great player who's just had a bad 6 weeks. This is a guy who in just 65 games in 2003 hit just .172. In 2002, he hit just .252 over 131 games. Last year he was better, but at .265 he wasn't exactly tearing the cover off the ball. There's no guarantee that Dye is going to get much better. We've got some trouble in right field.

You're right, he's not a great player, but he is a proven player. You're also correct on the stats in his bad years, but he's had several excellent years as well. I'm not ready to give up on him after six weeks.

NSSoxFan
05-16-2005, 11:26 PM
Un****ing believeable. I was speechless walking out of the game tonight.

How better could've it gotten? Pinch hit-game tying home run, and a come back win.

But no, Marte blows another one.

:angry:

I said to my friend after the first inning, "if we dont score or hit Park around in the 2nd or 3rd, we will lose this game." Sure enough.

I felt the same way walking out of the park tonight.

Not much more I can say that wasn't said in this thread, except I can't understand why some people are freaking out. Relax. El Duque didn't have his stuff tonight, and that happens. Hopefully Garland can come out and have great stuff tomorrow night, because I think our bullpen exposed how weak the Rangers hitting can be.

Go get them tomorrow.

NorthlakeTom
05-16-2005, 11:31 PM
I felt the same way walking out of the park tonight.

Not much more I can say that wasn't said in this thread, except I can't understand why some people are freaking out. Relax. El Duque didn't have his stuff tonight, and that happens. Hopefully Garland can come out and have great stuff tomorrow night, because I think our bullpen exposed how weak the Rangers hitting can be.

Go get them tomorrow.

Thank you for pointing this out. Texas has a lot of power, but they don't hit for average. Their OBP is lower than the Sox, so winning with a solo homerun is exactly what would be expected. They do score a lot of runs on the long ball. Keep runners off base, and the Sox have a great chance at taking the next two.

Jjav829
05-16-2005, 11:31 PM
You're right, he's not a great player, but he is a proven player. You're also correct on the stats in his bad years, but he's had several excellent years as well. I'm not ready to give up on him after six weeks.

He's proven but he's had several bad years and several excellent years? :?:

That doesn't add up. To be proven you have to show some legal of consistency. The only thing he's proven since 2001 is that he is no longer a very good player. A's fans knew this. We tried to blame it on injuries. His last good year was 2001. He's going to have a few more weeks to turn it around because the trade market isn't going to open up until the second week or June or so at the earliest. But Kenny has to be looking for alternatives that he can pursue. We can't afford this out of him all year.

batmanZoSo
05-16-2005, 11:32 PM
Konerko isn't even the biggest problem. Jermaine Dye (or even Timo Perez) is.

A .194 average is obviously never acceptable. However, Konerko is still walking at a great rate. Despite that average, he has 25 walks and a .331 OBP. So he's still getting on base at a decent rate and he's not taking his struggles at the plate out with him to the field. Dye on the other hand is hitting a miserable .198 and has only walked 5 times all year. On top of that, his defense hasn't been all that good. Even when he sits, Timo is a crappy replacement. We don't have a legitimate RF right now. The bigger problem is I don't know how we can get rid of this bum. Even if you assume that we could find a viable option for right - or even better, a player like Huff - what the hell do we do with Dye? He's still under contract for 2006 at $5 million. Who's going to want that? On top of all this, it's not like Dye is a lock to break out of this slump. We're not talking about a great player who's just had a bad 6 weeks. This is a guy who in just 65 games in 2003 hit just .172. In 2002, he hit just .252 over 131 games. Last year he was better, but at .265 he wasn't exactly tearing the cover off the ball. There's no guarantee that Dye is going to get much better. We've got some trouble in right field.

Yeah, Dye sucks, too. But at least with Konerko, there are people who think he's good. He's hitting under .200 and it's the middle of May. To me, a .331 on-base doesn't save Konerko at all. That's a horse **** on-base anyway for a guy making 8 million, which is solely based on hitting and no other tools to speak of.

Jjav829
05-16-2005, 11:36 PM
Yeah, Dye sucks, too. But at least with Konerko, there are people who think he's good. He's hitting under .200 and it's the middle of May. To me, a .331 on-base doesn't save Konerko at all. That's a horse **** on-base anyway for a guy making 8 million, which is solely based on hitting and no other tools to speak of.

True. I'm not saying he should be excused for hitting like crap because he's walking. My point is simply that while he isn't hitting, he's at least getting on base with walks which is better than nothing. Nothing is what Dye is doing. Dye isn't hitting and he isn't walking. He's a complete out in the lineup. The bigger issue right now is what to do with right field, not first base.

Viva Medias B's
05-16-2005, 11:37 PM
Not much more I can say that wasn't said in this thread, except I can't understand why some people are freaking out.

It's our nature to freak out when things go bad.

SoxxoS
05-16-2005, 11:39 PM
Konerko isn't even the biggest problem. Jermaine Dye (or even Timo Perez) is.

A .194 average is obviously never acceptable. However, Konerko is still walking at a great rate. Despite that average, he has 25 walks and a .331 OBP. So he's still getting on base at a decent rate and he's not taking his struggles at the plate out with him to the field. Dye on the other hand is hitting a miserable .198 and has only walked 5 times all year. On top of that, his defense hasn't been all that good. Even when he sits, Timo is a crappy replacement. We don't have a legitimate RF right now. The bigger problem is I don't know how we can get rid of this bum. Even if you assume that we could find a viable option for right - or even better, a player like Huff - what the hell do we do with Dye? He's still under contract for 2006 at $5 million. Who's going to want that? On top of all this, it's not like Dye is a lock to break out of this slump. We're not talking about a great player who's just had a bad 6 weeks. This is a guy who in just 65 games in 2003 hit just .172. In 2002, he hit just .252 over 131 games. Last year he was better, but at .265 he wasn't exactly tearing the cover off the ball. There's no guarantee that Dye is going to get much better. We've got some trouble in right field.

http://www.barons.com/nm/uploads/anderson1-nm.jpg

"Not that much trouble."

KW wants to win now, as does Ozzie, so I don't think the money will influence whether they call the man above up.

FarWestChicago
05-16-2005, 11:40 PM
True. I'm not saying he should be excused for hitting like crap because he's walking. My point is simply that while he isn't hitting, he's at least getting on base with walks which is better than nothing. Nothing is what Dye is doing. Dye isn't hitting and he isn't walking. He's a complete out in the lineup. The bigger issue right now is what to do with right field, not first base.Yeah, but what good is a walk for Konerko? The guy behind him has to triple to get him in from second if he gets there. :redneck

NSSoxFan
05-16-2005, 11:41 PM
True. I'm not saying he should be excused for hitting like crap because he's walking. My point is simply that while he isn't hitting, he's at least getting on base with walks which is better than nothing. Nothing is what Dye is doing. Dye isn't hitting and he isn't walking. He's a complete out in the lineup. The bigger issue right now is what to do with right field, not first base.

Another thing that isn't baseball related. White Sox fans will be a lot more patient with PK then they will with Dye, as well we should. The one thing that drives me crazy about Dye is the fact that every AB he has is the same story: fastball down the middle, strike one, breaking ball swung on and missed, strike two.

NorthlakeTom
05-16-2005, 11:42 PM
He's proven but he's had several bad years and several excellent years? :?:

That doesn't add up. To be proven you have to show some legal of consistency. The only thing he's proven since 2001 is that he is no longer a very good player. A's fans knew this. We tried to blame it on injuries. His last good year was 2001. He's going to have a few more weeks to turn it around because the trade market isn't going to open up until the second week or June or so at the earliest. But Kenny has to be looking for alternatives that he can pursue. We can't afford this out of him all year.
This simply isn't true. His performance so far this year is nothing like his career numbers. Outside of 2003, when I believe he was injured half the year, his numbers have been solid. 80+ runs and RBI. OBP .330+. SLG .450+. Those are acceptable numbers for a right fielder.

His "bad" years that you mentioned (outside of '03) include driving in 86 and 80 runs, scoring 74 and 87. Those are hardly bad numbers.

FarWestChicago
05-16-2005, 11:42 PM
It's our nature to freak out when things go bad.No, it's the nature of you and some other psychos, Viva. You don't speak for all of us.

Jjav829
05-16-2005, 11:43 PM
http://www.barons.com/nm/uploads/anderson1-nm.jpg

"Not that much trouble."

KW wants to win now, as does Ozzie, so I don't think the money will influence whether they call the man above up.

I think it will absolutely keep them from bringing up Anderson. Not only would Dye and his $4 million be on the bench, but he'd be sitting on the bench next to Everett and his $4 million. That's $8 million for two bench players once Frank comes back. That's not happening. Only way Anderson gets called up is if Dye gets hurt - and this is Jermaine Dye we're talking about so that's not our of the question - or traded, which isn't likely.

itsnotrequired
05-16-2005, 11:44 PM
Froze my arse off tonight. Drat. Sig update time...

Jjav829
05-16-2005, 11:50 PM
This simply isn't true. His performance so far this year is nothing like his career numbers. Outside of 2003, when I believe he was injured half the year, his numbers have been solid. 80+ runs and RBI. OBP .330+. SLG .450+. Those are acceptable numbers for a right fielder.

His "bad" years that you mentioned (outside of '03) include driving in 86 and 80 runs, scoring 74 and 87. Those are hardly bad numbers.

With sub-.270 averages and sub-.800 OPS's. These aren't exactly great numbers. Those numbers basically rank him among the lower half of right fielders. Maybe I'm setting the bar too high as I'm still spoiled by the days when we used to argue that we had the best right fielder in baseball. But I'd like a lot more production out of right field. Dye doesn't hit for average. He doesn't walk. His power isn't that great. I'd like a lot more and what he's doing now certainly isn't anywhere near playing like a capable right fielder.

Jjav829
05-16-2005, 11:55 PM
Another thing that isn't baseball related. White Sox fans will be a lot more patient with PK then they will with Dye, as well we should. The one thing that drives me crazy about Dye is the fact that every AB he has is the same story: fastball down the middle, strike one, breaking ball swung on and missed, strike two.

I don't know about that. It seems like more people are complaining about Konerko than Dye. And like I said, at least Konerko is contributing in some way. Granted a .331 on-base isn't acceptable for someone like Konerko who is expected to carry this team. But as bad as he looks at the plate right now, a .331 OBP actually seems decent, especially when compared to Dye's .248. They both have to start hitting.

I agree with you on the Dye at-bats. I was actually surprised to see him ground out to end the game because I was sure a strikeout was coming. He's just brutal to watch at the plate.

Lip Man 1
05-17-2005, 12:01 AM
Just a point. Some of our brothers the past few days have been talking about how good the Rangers are.

Yet when I look at their record, they are barely above .500....someone has been beating them and doing it with regularity. I grant you they have some talented offensive players but again the record speaks for itself.

I don't see why the Sox can't still take this series even though Monday was disappointing, they scored early and often yet couldn't maintain it.

Lip

NorthlakeTom
05-17-2005, 12:01 AM
With sub-.270 averages and sub-.800 OPS's. These aren't exactly great numbers. Those numbers basically rank him among the lower half of right fielders. Maybe I'm setting the bar too high as I'm still spoiled by the days when we used to argue that we had the best right fielder in baseball. But I'd like a lot more production out of right field. He doesn't hit for average. He doesn't walk. His power isn't that great. I'd like a lot more and what he's doing now certainly isn't anywhere near playing like a capable right fielder.
Agreed, but if he plays up to his potential, Kenny will get his money's worth. I'm just not giving up on him this early. If he turns it around, he's perfectly capable of driving in 50-60 (more) runs over the rest of the season. Like everyone has been saying, Frank's return will improve the whole lineup. I'll take a wait and see attitude.

Unregistered
05-17-2005, 12:02 AM
I don't know about that. It seems like more people are complaining about Konerko than Dye. And like I said, at least Konerko is contributing in some way. Granted a .331 on-base isn't acceptable for someone like Konerko who is expected to carry this team. But as bad as he looks at the plate right now, a .331 OBP actually seems decent, especially when compared to Dye's .248. They both have to start hitting.

I agree with you on the Dye at-bats. I was actually surprised to see him ground out to end the game because I was sure a strikeout was coming. He's just brutal to watch at the plate.
Maybe it's cause people expect Konerko to do better. Konerko has a history of success (for the most part) in Chicago, so people expect to see him turn it around and become a .300 hitting, 40 home run slugger.

With Dye people either might not be that familiar with him or are just used to the fact that he's a hole in the lineup - as he has been since the season started. Personally, I'm so far from expecting anything from Dye at this point, so it's almost as though I pretend he's not even on the team. I just automatically count it as an out. He's like this year's Royce Clayton.

Jjav829
05-17-2005, 12:12 AM
Maybe it's cause people expect Konerko to do better. Konerko has a history of success (for the most part) in Chicago, so people expect to see him turn it around and become a .300 hitting, 40 home run slugger.

With Dye people either might not be that familiar with him or are just used to the fact that he's a hole in the lineup - as he has been since the season started. Personally, I'm so far from expecting anything from Dye at this point, so it's almost as though I pretend he's not even on the team. I just automatically count it as an out. He's like this year's Royce Clayton.

Ha, see that's my problem! I need to get rid of that false optimism I have. My problem is that I go into every game thinking that maybe this game will be the one where Dye turns it around. Then he puts up his usual 0-4 and I'm pissed off at him again. The next day I start over new thinking maybe this day will be the day Dye turns it around. Then he sucks again and I'm pissed. I need to get rid of that slight bit of hope I have for Dye turning it around and completely focus on how bad he is. Then I won't be pissed when he goes 0-4.

Jurr
05-17-2005, 12:23 AM
Blame the loss on me guys. I ran possibly my worst race of my freshman Track and Field Season today (5:13 mile) so that led to the loss tonight. I'm really sorry. Seriously though, why is that when our offense is starting to heat up that our pitching is starting to melt down? Our team ERA has skyrocketed these past three games.
Well, to put it simply:

Orioles and Rangers' offense>>>>>>>>>Royals and Indians' offense

Jurr
05-17-2005, 12:27 AM
This team is going to lose some games. It happens. They've just got to hold onto a lead in the division until the deadline, where help is a'comin'.

Frank coming back plus some other bat via trade equals enough hitting to help win this thing.

We have been spoiled by the pitching so far. The deal is (we hope, at least) that three of those five guys should win games each time they're up. Buehrle and Garland aren't going to win every time, and Garcia, El Duque, and Contreras aren't going to lose all the time. If they can win three of five games consistently, we're looking at 90+ wins. that's a playoff berth, especially when the hitting gets going. Everything's cool.

Nellie_Fox
05-17-2005, 12:53 AM
If they can win three of five games consistently, we're looking at 90+ wins.Actually, going .600 the rest of the way would result in 101 wins.

DaleJRFan
05-17-2005, 12:55 AM
Marte hasn't been the same pitcher since 2002. He's lost some velocity in his fastball and his breaking ball has nowhere near the movement it once did. It looks like a different pitch.

Right now, Politte's our 8th inning guy and Hermanson's the closer. The problem I have with that is that they're so similar (stuff wise). Over the long haul, they'll get exposed.

Marte still throws 94-96. His slider is still really good. He just can't locate his fastball. When he gets behind 2-0 he has to groove one up there, which he did, and it was taken out of the park. He gave up one hit, it just happened to be a home run, to the same guy who took El Duque deep. The loss lands squarely on El Duque's shoulders, not Marte.

I don't think Politte and Hermanson are too similar. Hermanson throws 88-90. Politte throws 94-95. Politte's out pitch is a wicked slider. Hermanson's out pitch is a sharp breaking sinker. I like this late inning combination.

Politte is incredible. Did he allow a single hit? His only earned run this season was a solo homerun and he allowed a run on a sac fly (inherited baserunner). I'm glad we have such a deep BP for days like today when our starter can't pitch out of the third inning.

Its amazing to me that the Sox scored so many runs with the lineup that was put out there tonight. Timo? Willie? Yikes.

MUsoxfan
05-17-2005, 01:42 AM
Its amazing to me that the Sox scored so many runs with the lineup that was put out there tonight. Timo? Willie? Yikes.

I second that amazement

JB98
05-17-2005, 02:09 AM
Marte still throws 94-96. His slider is still really good. He just can't locate his fastball. When he gets behind 2-0 he has to groove one up there, which he did, and it was taken out of the park. He gave up one hit, it just happened to be a home run, to the same guy who took El Duque deep. The loss lands squarely on El Duque's shoulders, not Marte.

I don't think Politte and Hermanson are too similar. Hermanson throws 88-90. Politte throws 94-95. Politte's out pitch is a wicked slider. Hermanson's out pitch is a sharp breaking sinker. I like this late inning combination.

Politte is incredible. Did he allow a single hit? His only earned run this season was a solo homerun and he allowed a run on a sac fly (inherited baserunner). I'm glad we have such a deep BP for days like today when our starter can't pitch out of the third inning.

Its amazing to me that the Sox scored so many runs with the lineup that was put out there tonight. Timo? Willie? Yikes.

Well, the offense consisted of one big swing at just the right time. After that first inning, we really didn't do much. RF is just a black hole on this team. I still have faith in Konerko. I just wonder whether Paulie has any faith in himself.

:?:

MUsoxfan
05-17-2005, 02:12 AM
Well, the offense consisted of one big swing at just the right time. After that first inning, we really didn't do much. RF is just a black hole on this team. I still have faith in Konerko. I just wonder whether Paulie has any faith in himself.

:?:

That's the swing this team hasn't been getting all year long. Our BA with RISP isn't fantastic by any means. Paulie has been hitting the ball terribly hard and will come around sooner than later.

Take NOTHING away from AJ's clutch hitting

SoxxoS
05-17-2005, 02:19 AM
I think it will absolutely keep them from bringing up Anderson. Not only would Dye and his $4 million be on the bench, but he'd be sitting on the bench next to Everett and his $4 million. That's $8 million for two bench players once Frank comes back. That's not happening. Only way Anderson gets called up is if Dye gets hurt - and this is Jermaine Dye we're talking about so that's not our of the question - or traded, which isn't likely.

I think KW will re-evalute at the end of June and see what we have. If Anderson is tearing it up, and Dye is flirting with Mendoza...then I can't see KW not pulling the trigger and swollowing his pride. We shall see. Brian has over a 900 OPS at Charlotte right now and doesn't look to be slowing down. Not to mention, he would bring more speed and better defense.

SOXit2EM
05-17-2005, 02:26 AM
It basically boils down to this folks...........The pitching will be FINE!!! It's the middle of the order that is KILLING US!!! As amazing as this sounds, we could very likely be 37-2 if the middle of our order had at least performed up to it's expectations. PK And Dye are obvioulsly killing us the most right now, but Everett has had multiple chances to drive in runners on 3rd w/ less than 2 out and has failed, including tonite!! :angry: Rowand looks like he is finally turning it around, but Everett is starting to slump, which pretty much negates that. If Dye and PK don't start picking it up soon, I'm afraid our division lead will disappear, as i don't see our pitching being THIS good the rest of the year!! I do think that when Frank comes back he will give a jolt to this lineup that it most definitely needs, it's just too bad neither him or Everett can play the field................. I just hope that we didn't blow our chance to have a HUUGE lead in this division and could've runaway with it by now, because of the lack of key hits by the middle of our order. :(:

balke
05-17-2005, 07:39 AM
Everett GIDP w/ one out and runners on the corners. He also K'd and grounded out.

Konerko got caught looking on a pitch he should be swinging at w/ runners on late in the game.

Dye sucked again, K'd in late innings.

I don't blame Marte for the loss at all. When you have 6 innings of relief out of the pen, someone is going to give up a run.

I don't know... we need that great hitter or two in the middle of the lineup. There's still a chance we can win this series, which would be nice, but I can't stand watching 3-4-5-6 all range from suck to mediocre much longer. Dye has the slowest bat in the world. I hate wasted money.

soxtalker
05-17-2005, 09:00 AM
It basically boils down to this folks...........The pitching will be FINE!!! It's the middle of the order that is KILLING US!!! As amazing as this sounds, we could very likely be 37-2 if the middle of our order had at least performed up to it's expectations. PK And Dye are obvioulsly killing us the most right now, but Everett has had multiple chances to drive in runners on 3rd w/ less than 2 out and has failed, including tonite!! :angry: Rowand looks like he is finally turning it around, but Everett is starting to slump, which pretty much negates that. If Dye and PK don't start picking it up soon, I'm afraid our division lead will disappear, as i don't see our pitching being THIS good the rest of the year!! I do think that when Frank comes back he will give a jolt to this lineup that it most definitely needs, it's just too bad neither him or Everett can play the field................. I just hope that we didn't blow our chance to have a HUUGE lead in this division and could've runaway with it by now, because of the lack of key hits by the middle of our order. :(:

I appreciate your concern about the middle of the line up. Frank's presence will certainly be welcome. However, I don't agree with your assertion that the pitching will be ok. The staff had a great run early, but it wasn't perfect -- and it is the middle three (Garcia, Contreras, and Hernandez) that struggle at times. Add to that the recent troubles of Cotts. One could say that this is just the normal statistical fluctuation that occurs during the season, but we're also facing stiffer competition. (Admittedly, we didn't know that the competition early in the season was poor, but those teams are now appearing to be fairly weak -- even beyond playing us.) Just as we're starting to hear suggestions that Anderson be brought up, I wonder if there will be some calls for McCarthy.

Hangar18
05-17-2005, 09:21 AM
Everett GIDP w/ one out and runners on the corners. He also K'd and grounded out.

Konerko got caught looking on a pitch he should be swinging at w/ runners on late in the game.

Dye sucked again, K'd in late innings.

I don't blame Marte for the loss at all. When you have 6 innings of relief out of the pen, someone is going to give up a run.

I don't know... we need that great hitter or two in the middle of the lineup. There's still a chance we can win this series, which would be nice, but I can't stand watching 3-4-5-6 all range from suck to mediocre much longer. Dye has the slowest bat in the world. I hate wasted money.

Everetts GIDP was huge, I was saying at that point to send the runner
to 2nd, to stay out of the DP, because the middle of our Donut Offense
is sooooooooooooo horrible right now. Make no mistake, Jermaine Dye
is killing this team slooooowly, much the same way Billy Koch, and Mike Jackson did in our bullpen. You know how they say Hitting is Contagious?
Well unfortuneately, so is poor hitting. Paulie is really developing some bad habits trying to carry the weight of the offense. Pretty soon Everett is going to do the same and the Magical season we thought we were having will be wasted away as the Twinks come right on back.

I saw something in Dye first week of the season ......and I didnt like it. Hes finished. He is making Paulie a worse
hitter. Paul and Everett are simply trying way too hard, knowing if they
dont get a hit, our Donut Offense will not get a hit then. I argued last nite that we shouldnt have sacrificed our offense as much as we did .........

mdep524
05-17-2005, 09:35 AM
On the plus side, Aaron looked locked in at the plate, and Politte looked great on the mound.

I'm not worried about El Duque having one bad start- although his nibbling and wasting of pitches is maddening. The Sox can come back today and tomorrow with our two best pitchers on the mound and take the series, and that's all you can ask.

On a smaller scale, Timo really isn't producing out there in RF. His defenses is below average- in specific his horrific range kept him from catching up to a gapper than Rowand, Ozuna, Dye or Anderson might have made a nice play on. And his bat isn't producing a heck of a lot either.

Also, Willie proved why he is and always will be nothing more than a bench scrub again yesterday. Not once, but TWICE he came up to the plate and took Sammy Sosa homerun swings which for him end up as medium depth fly outs to right. Note to Willie: you're a flippin' singles hitter, don't put the ball in the air.

Frater Perdurabo
05-17-2005, 09:38 AM
I argued last nite that we shouldnt have sacrificed our offense as much as we did .........

Hangar, I respectfully quibble with you there.

Do the Sox lack middle of the order punch? Yes.

Do they need to do something about it? Yes!

Should the Sox have re-signed Maggs? Given his injury, his contract demands and inablity to play at present, the answer is an emphatic NO.

Frank is only now beginning his rehab. Nothing the Sox can do about Frank now.

The only middle of the order hitter that might help them right now is Lee. But they got Podsednik (23 steals!) and Vizcaino (who pitched well in relief last night) for him, plus payroll flexibility to sign El Duque, Dye and AJ (who hit the granny last night!) Maybe Carlos Lee hits the grand slam last night instead of AJ. But the Sox wouldn't have a decent fifth starter (El Duque's performance last night excepted), Wille Harris would be leading off (ugh) and Ben Davis would be catching (ugh).

At present, it appears Dye was a bad signing and Paulie completely sucks right now. There's where most of the blame belongs, along with El Duque's piss poor performance last night.

Donut shaped offense is right. But Dye and Konerko are responsible for it, not the absence of Carlos Lee.

Flight #24
05-17-2005, 09:58 AM
I argued last nite that we shouldnt have sacrificed our offense as much as we did .........

So, in terms of moves - you want Maggs back? Or I suppose having Carlos instead of Podsednik would make the difference? Of course in that scenario, you'd still have Konerko-Everett-Dye.......

So I guess my only response is :?:

IMO the primary concern from last night is Marte. Not because he gave up the HR, but because he still can't locate well (which leadds to grooving pitches like the HR). Going into last night, he had 12 BBs in 14 IP - that's horrendous. The bullpen overall is fine, but Damaso's our key late man, and that's where we've been winning games - by locking teams down late. We need him to get back on track, he's been lucky to keep his ERA low given his BB rate. If he can't, we need to start going to Politte late even though he's a righty.

Church Turtle
05-17-2005, 09:59 AM
Wherever blame lies I am more impressed with Iguchi every time he plays - even in a pinch hitting situation. 拿那!(Couldn't find Japanese, Chinese will have to suffice.)

mikehuff
05-17-2005, 10:09 AM
Remember that not long ago we were wondering where everybody would fit in when Frank came back? Well, now that has all changed. Frank is needed more than ever now and we can actually see a couple of spots that we would like to sit down (Konerko/Dye.)

The offense needs real help and possibly with Frank in there, Paulie will start seeing better pitches. I like the top three in the order now or Pods, Iguchi and Rowand. Maybe batting Paulie 4th and Thomas and Everett after him will get him better pitches. However, I wouldn't mind pushing Paulie even further back to the #6 spot after Everett and somehow getting Dye out of the lineup completely.

With all that seems to be going wrong lately, at least we have help on the way without spending any money. I think we've shown that we're going to be in a playoff race this year even if we lose a few more. If we need to, we should have an option to replace Dye a little further down the road with some sort of trade. Hoping that Konerko would be hitting by then would solve the problem.

We'll see. At least we don't have the 2001, 2002 and 2003 teams anymore.

Hangar18
05-17-2005, 10:20 AM
Remember that not long ago we were wondering where everybody would fit in when Frank came back? Well, now that has all changed. Frank is needed more than ever now and we can actually see a couple of spots that we would like to sit down (Konerko/Dye.)

The offense needs real help and possibly with Frank in there, Paulie will start seeing better pitches. I like the top three in the order now or Pods, Iguchi and Rowand. Maybe batting Paulie 4th and Thomas and Everett after him will get him better pitches. However, I wouldn't mind pushing Paulie even further back to the #6 spot after Everett and somehow getting Dye out of the lineup completely.

With all that seems to be going wrong lately, at least we have help on the way without spending any money. I think we've shown that we're going to be in a playoff race this year even if we lose a few more. If we need to, we should have an option to replace Dye a little further down the road with some sort of trade. Hoping that Konerko would be hitting by then would solve the problem.

We'll see. At least we don't have the 2001, 2002 and 2003 teams anymore.

Everything makes sense in this post ........... But I was the first to predict,
Dye was going to BOMB and he'd be grabbing some bench by May (he shouldve been benched a couple weeks ago).

LVSoxFan
05-17-2005, 10:22 AM
I, like many here, am not going to whale on Marte for grooving that pitch; it happens.

The upsides to the game were plenty, but it's hard to see them after El Duque crashed and burned so severely. But the upshots:

1) Pierzinski: grand slam! Nice!
2) Even after ED's flameout we came back
3) Iguchi hit's opposite field homer in the clutch
4) Our bullpen shut them down, starting with Vizcaino, who's been shaky

The things that worry me besides the offense in general are how many men we leave on base--seems to be an awful lot lately.

As far as panic mode--people are way too premature with that. Hell I'll take a sub-500 start for a July/August streak if that's what it takes to win. As the saying goes, seasons can't be won in the first half, but they can be lost. Seeing that we're not K.C., I'd say we've got a good cushion to work with. Yes it's painful to lose but again: if we can take series, that should do it for us. Let's focus on winning the next two and then comes the emotional downtime of the... Cubs series...

Ugh... :rolleyes:

Hangar18
05-17-2005, 10:32 AM
Its been said that Good Pitching beats Good Hitting everytime.
What good does it do if you cant hit?

NorthlakeTom
05-17-2005, 10:38 AM
Politte throws 94-95.
Actually, Politte has been clocked at 98, and he throws 96 consistently.

JB98
05-17-2005, 12:44 PM
I appreciate your concern about the middle of the line up. Frank's presence will certainly be welcome. However, I don't agree with your assertion that the pitching will be ok. The staff had a great run early, but it wasn't perfect -- and it is the middle three (Garcia, Contreras, and Hernandez) that struggle at times. Add to that the recent troubles of Cotts. One could say that this is just the normal statistical fluctuation that occurs during the season, but we're also facing stiffer competition. (Admittedly, we didn't know that the competition early in the season was poor, but those teams are now appearing to be fairly weak -- even beyond playing us.) Just as we're starting to hear suggestions that Anderson be brought up, I wonder if there will be some calls for McCarthy.

There are already some calls for McCarthy, but I seriously doubt the people making those calls are aware that Brandon got beat 9-2 in his last start. He's a young pitcher, and if we call him up, he'll have his ups and downs. I think he's going to be a fine pitcher for the Sox, but it's laughable to me that some on this board believe he's a better option for the rotation than Contreras or El Duque, or a better option than Cotts in the bullpen. I think he should stay at triple-A and continue to develop. If we have an injury and we need someone, then OK, we'll call him up. But I think it would be foolish to rush him to the big leagues.

mccoydp
05-17-2005, 01:16 PM
I'm not worried about this team. It is going to endure several losing streaks as well as winning streaks.
Expect the team to do so-so against power teams with high BA, OBP, and HR, and better against teams that play a "smaller" form of baseball. The offense has to rely on cranking out wins instead of winning through home runs.
Of course, Frank's return will be a shot in the arm to the offense. His placement will ripple through the lineup and provide a boost to Paulie and Rowand. I fully expect Jermain Dye to be benched or traded.
I approach the pitchers in the following manner:

Beurhle and Garland - 80-85% sure of a win when these guys pitch
Garcia - 70% sure of a win
Contreras - 50% sure of a win
El Duque - 65-70% sure of a win

This has worked pretty well since the start of the season.

I do like how this team doesn't roll over and die when behind. They seem to be genuinely concerned about winning. I like the fire from guys like Pierzynski, Rowand, and even Joe Crede. I like to see Joe get mouthy about pitches!

Anyway, that's my two cents. It's still a long season, and, while their hot start provides some insurance for later on in the season, they will really shine after the All-Star Break. The winning percentage will come down to earth sometime.

These guys are going to the playoffs.

Cliff Politte, Dustin Hermanson, Marte, and, yes, Vizcaino will anchor the relief effort, IMHO. I really like how Cliff is throwing. Marte makes me nervous, but he has good stuff. Neal Cotts scares me. Vizcaino is still trying to recover from his beginning-of-the-season clobbering.