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View Full Version : Why did we lose Saturday? (My argument with a friend)


Whitesox029
05-15-2005, 01:59 AM
I just had a lengthy discussion with my Sox fan friend who was at today's game about why we lost it. I contend that you pin the blame on the part of the Sox' game that was not up to their standards, which was the pitching. He says that "if we weren't thrown out at home 3 times it would have been 9-9 in the 9th." I see many flaws in this reasoning:
1. This team is built to be aggressive on the bases and dominating on the mound. Tonight, it was the latter part that failed us, and thus, this is why we lost.
2. Even if Cora holds those three runners, with the Sox' team average being what it is (around .250 I think?) there's only a 25% chance that each of those runners would have ended up scoring anyway. I believe that 50% of the time a cutoff man or outfielder is going to make a throw that will somehow allow the run to score: either it will be wide, in the dirt, or the runner will knock it out of the catcher's glove.
3. Assuming it's 9-9 going into the ninth, there's still no guarantee of a win as we have to play extra innings if we don't score.

In essence, if the three runners had been held, then maybe we would have won, but if the pitching had been there, it would have been an easy victory with 6 Sox crossing the plate.
My conclusion is to blame the pitching and expect better from them while expecting the same thing from Joey Cora and Sox runners and not being all that worried about it. That aggressiveness will get you more runs than it will take away.
What's your take on this whole debate?

Nellie_Fox
05-15-2005, 02:15 AM
I thought it was questionable when Joey sent Konerko. His lack of speed is legendary. I was already yelling at the TV before he even got to third "NO...DON"T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT."

I still prefer an aggressive third base coach.

ilsox7
05-15-2005, 02:16 AM
Your friend is way, way off.

The first one was Cora's fault...no clue how that inning would ahve gone otherwise.

JD getting thrown out at the plate was a stupid play by Tejada. He turns 2 easily if he goes to 2nd and the inning is over anyways.

Pods was going on contact and actually made a smart play to get caught up so Arow could move into scoring position.

WhiteSox16K
05-15-2005, 02:22 AM
My conclusion is to blame the pitching and expect better from them while expecting the same thing from Joey Cora and Sox runners and not being all that worried about it.

Cora should've NEVER sent Konerko in the 1st. Dye's and Pod's mistakes were kind of flukey. Dye had no reason to believe that Tejada wasn't going to try to turn the double play and Pods tried to sneak home on Rowands ground out. I don't mind him being aggressive because he's so quick and it will work out a lot.

Garcia was terrible today and had nothing. Normally he works late into counts with his 'stuff' and today they were jumping all over him. Cotts should never pitch in a close game and that's about it.

SaltyPretzel
05-15-2005, 02:32 AM
Garcia was terrible today and had nothing. Normally he works late into counts with his 'stuff' and today they were jumping all over him. Cotts should never pitch in a close game and that's about it.

He was tipping his pitches big time tonight. I think everyone in the park knew when he was going offspeed. Especially the gopher ball to Surhoff. :(:

FarWestChicago
05-15-2005, 02:39 AM
I thought it was questionable when Joey sent Konerko. His lack of speed is legendary. I was already yelling at the TV before he even got to third "NO...DON"T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT."

I still prefer an aggressive third base coach.Sending Konerko from third to home on a single to the outfield is a risk. It has to be tough to be the third base coach with him heading toward you.

Nellie_Fox
05-15-2005, 02:42 AM
Sending Konerko from third to home on a single to the outfield is a risk. It has to be tough to be the third base coach with him heading toward you.It was almost funny that Paulie was so out of gas that he couldn't even make a decent effort to crash into the catcher.

doublem23
05-15-2005, 02:44 AM
With a team like this, I think you win more games being aggressive on the basepaths and making the defense earn the outs than you do being timid and waiting for Jermaine Dye or Willie Harris to come through with the big hit. Even the best teams get beat.

We lost because Freddy Garcia couldn't keep the Orioles off the damn board.

IowaSox1971
05-15-2005, 02:47 AM
With two outs, it's worth it to send the runner, even Konerko. Many times, there is a bad throw or the catcher bobbles the ball, or the throw gets cut off, so you might as well try to score. There probably was a 40 percent chance he would make it. If he had held him, was there a 40 percent chance of the batter getting the guy in from third with two outs? Probably not.


With fewer than two outs, it is not worth the gamble.

ilsox7
05-15-2005, 02:51 AM
With two outs, it's worth it to send the runner, even Konerko. Many times, there is a bad throw or the catcher bobbles the ball, or the throw gets cut off, so you might as well try to score. There probably was a 40 percent chance he would make it. If he had held him, was there a 40 percent chance of the batter getting the guy in from third with two outs? Probably not.


With fewer than two outs, it is not worth the gamble.

Not in this situation. It's worth it to send him if it is gonna take a good relay and a good throw to the plate. In this case, PK was out by about 10 feet. That means it takes a below average relay and a below average throw to the plate and they still get him.

34rancher
05-15-2005, 08:33 AM
We lost becasue they scored more than we did. :D: We had opportunities and just did not capitalize.

gosox41
05-15-2005, 08:56 AM
We lost because Freddy Garcia couldn't keep the Orioles off the damn board.

Exactly. You're not going to win many games when you give up 9 runs.



Bob

TornLabrum
05-15-2005, 09:57 AM
Your friend is way, way off.

The first one was Cora's fault...no clue how that inning would ahve gone otherwise.

JD getting thrown out at the plate was a stupid play by Tejada. He turns 2 easily if he goes to 2nd and the inning is over anyways.

Pods was going on contact and actually made a smart play to get caught up so Arow could move into scoring position.

You are absolutely correct, sir, on both counts. I was sitting behind the Sox dugout in the Mary Kay seats last night and couldn't believe that Tejada through to the plate rather than go for what appeared to be a cinch double play.

On the play where Pods was caught, I said to MK, that's a situation in which you should never run.

Still, it did look to me as if Freddy lost his concentration during the fourth inning when he had the lead. That was the secondary cause of this loss.

TornLabrum
05-15-2005, 09:58 AM
We lost becasue they scored more than we did. :D: We had opportunities and just did not capitalize.

Thank you, Tim McCarver! :D:

DumpJerry
05-15-2005, 10:00 AM
It's simple why we lost: Law of Averages. We're gonna lost some games this year. This is not football where an undefeated season is possible because there are only 12-16 games (depending on whether you're a college or NFL team). We are still on track for 152 victories.

samram
05-15-2005, 10:12 AM
It's simple why we lost: Law of Averages. We're gonna lost some games this year. This is not football where an undefeated season is possible because there are only 12-16 games (depending on whether you're a college or NFL team). We are still on track for 152 victories.

Yep, just one of those things. Baltimore has a teriffic offensive team and had been held to 5 runs over the first two games, so they were bound to score some. Now they have 14 in the series, putting them far closer (although probably still below) their season average.

By the way, I think Paulie is still running. As batman said in the chat last night, he set up base camp around second base and is trying for home this morning.

SOXSINCE'70
05-15-2005, 10:21 AM
Thank you, Tim McCarver! :D:

If you throw strikes,it keeps your infield on its toes.:roflmao: :roflmao:

MRKARNO
05-15-2005, 11:17 AM
Garcia was off of his game tonight and Ozzie didnt recognize it and he brought him out for the 7th, a move which I thought was terrible at the time. No one was readying in the bullpen until a minute or so before Garcia was to take the hill in the 7th and it was Cotts. You dont bring in Neal Cotts to stop the bleeding in most cases. Vizcaino might have been a better option, but the point was that those decisions were a lot bigger than Cora's decisions. The one Cora decision I wasnt OK with was sending Pauly home. The other two were fine. Podsednik may have gotten himself out as he hesitated a bit.

The Wimperoo
05-15-2005, 11:19 AM
They lost because Garcia sucked big time.

FarWestChicago
05-15-2005, 12:33 PM
Garcia was off of his game tonight and Ozzie didnt recognize it...How do you know this? Did Ozzie tell you? Or are you claiming you are clairvoyant?

batmanZoSo
05-15-2005, 12:51 PM
Garcia was off of his game tonight and Ozzie didnt recognize it and he brought him out for the 7th, a move which I thought was terrible at the time. No one was readying in the bullpen until a minute or so before Garcia was to take the hill in the 7th and it was Cotts. You dont bring in Neal Cotts to stop the bleeding in most cases. Vizcaino might have been a better option, but the point was that those decisions were a lot bigger than Cora's decisions. The one Cora decision I wasnt OK with was sending Pauly home. The other two were fine. Podsednik may have gotten himself out as he hesitated a bit.

He's had a bad career against the Orioles--and those were crappy Orioles in all previous years of his career.

I think we just saw that they can really hit. And you can't win em all. That's why we lost.

Whitesox029
05-15-2005, 12:54 PM
He's had a bad career against the Orioles--and those were crappy Orioles in all previous years of his career.

I think we just saw that they can really hit. And you can't win em all. That's why we lost.
I agree with you 100% and I was trying to tell my friend that you can't blame it solely on those baserunning mistakes. I'll refer him to this thread and he might reply as he's registered here as jcirish85

MRKARNO
05-15-2005, 01:03 PM
How do you know this? Did Ozzie tell you? Or are you claiming you are clairvoyant?

Well I didnt know it for a fact, but it was pretty clear that Garcia was wasn't doing that well based on the results up to that point in the game. One could argue that he was coming on a bit at the end there after he had struck out three while only giving up one single in the 5th and 6th, but his pitch count was already at 104 when he came out to start the 7th. I do know where Ozzie was going with his decision, but I think that this case, more so than any of the others, was one where you bring out a reliever to start the inning and tell Garcia to bring his good stuff next start against the Cubs. If Neal Cotts is who you plan on bringing in, it's better to do so with bases empty. It was just a series of decisions that I did not agree with.

FarWestChicago
05-15-2005, 01:36 PM
It was just a series of decisions that I did not agree with.This is vastly different from claiming to know what Ozzie thinks or "recognizes". Thank you for the clarification.

Palehose13
05-15-2005, 01:43 PM
When this team scores 9 runs they should win...they are mostly about pitching and defense, right? Something in that formula failed last night.

Ol' No. 2
05-15-2005, 01:57 PM
When this team scores 9 runs they should win...they are mostly about pitching and defense, right? Something in that formula failed last night.It seems so simple...and yet people have a hard time with that for some reason.:?:

soxtalker
05-15-2005, 02:51 PM
I believe that Ozzie commented in the post-game interview that Garcia didn't challenge the hitters like he should have. IIRC, DJ and Hawk were making comments along the same line (maybe not pitching inside enough) during the game.

Ditka311
05-15-2005, 06:30 PM
Cotts should never pitch in a close game and that's about it.

All you needed to say.