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Alanzo XXXVIII
05-10-2005, 10:25 PM
Tonight's game, but not tonight's game exclusively, should be an indicator that our bullpen is not the cream of the crop; in fact, it's anything but.

Late in the game, if you take a pitcher out who's gotton 1 out and left a man on first, you should not expect 2 runs to be scored. Vizcaino has hardly proved himself worthy of being a late inning "righty specialist" this year. But that's only a part of the whole problem.

Politte has far better numbers, and got a nice feeding of pine tonight. Vizcaino, on the other hand, gave up his inherited runner and allowed another run to score in 1.1 innings. He got his 3rd out in the 7th with bases loaded.

Cotts is shaky.
Vizcaino is completely unreliable.
The usage of Shingo needs to be rethought, now. We can no longer afford to use him in the latest of innings when he's proven to give up the long ball-- make them earn it.

Marte is better than the above, but has a serious problem with walks.

Politte seems to be doing well this season, as well as Hermanson.

My problem with the usage of Hermanson is that he is only used in very "precise" situations, only when the game is clearly on the line.

We can't keep on floating by in these close games. It's true that the best team will, for the most part, win close games. But I want to see the numbers (ERA, WHIP?) in our relievers before I beleive this generalization in regard to the White Sox.

batmanZoSo
05-10-2005, 10:30 PM
Tonight's game, but not tonight's game exclusively, show be an indicator that our bullpen is not the cream of the crop; in fact, it's anything but.

Late in the game, if you take a pitcher out who's gotton 1 out and left a man on first, you should not expect 2 runs to be scored. Vizcaino has hardly proved himself worthy of being a late inning "righty specialist" this year". But that's only a part of the whole.

Politte has far better numbers, and got a nice feeding of pine tonight. Vizcaino, on the other hand, gave up his inherited runner and allowed another run to score in 1.1 innings. He got his 3rd out in the 7th with bases loaded.

Cotts is shaky.
Vizcaino is completely unreliable.
The usage of Shingo needs to be rethought, now. We can no longer afford to use him in the latest of innings when he's proven to give up the long ball-- make them earn it.

Marte is better than the above, but has a serious problem with walks.

Politte seems to be doing well this season, as well as Hermanson.

My problem with the usage of Hermanson is that he is only used in very "precise" situations, only when the game is clearly on the line.

We can't keep on floating by in these close games. It's true that the best team will, for the most part, win close games. But I want to see the numbers (ERA, WHIP?) in our relievers before I beleive this generalization in regard to the White Sox.

Vizcaino has been getting knocked all over the place lately. I trust him as far as I can throw him right now. Politte has done pretty well and I would've rather seen him than Vizcaino tonight. I don't understand Ozzie's love affair with Cotts. This guy is a janitor at best out of the bullpen. In my honest opinion, I don't think he belongs in the majors--at least not on a first place team.

The problem with Hermanson is he's clearly the best in the pen this year, so we have to save him for when it really counts.

fincher
05-10-2005, 10:42 PM
Vizcaino has to go. As for the others, Ozzie's still trying to figure it all out and there's going to be some bumps along the way. I have no problem with 2-3 closers at this point since Shingo is a buzz-killer with the long ball. Teams have figured out Shingo.

Bottom line is the Sox have been in every game. The Baltimore series will be telling.

batmanZoSo
05-10-2005, 10:46 PM
Vizcaino has to go. As for the others, Ozzie's still trying to figure it all out and there's going to be some bumps along the way. I have no problem with 2-3 closers at this point since Shingo is a buzz-killer with the long ball. Teams have figured out Shingo.

Bottom line is the Sox have been in every game. The Baltimore series will be telling.

Shingo just doesn't throw strikes anymore. It's easy to hit an 87 mph fastball when you know that's the only thing coming over the plate. I was surprised to see that homer after the way he came back on hitter one to strike him out. His fastball looked really good. But I guess you just gotta tip your cap to Jorge Cantu sometimes...he's gonna beat ya.

Norberto7
05-10-2005, 11:23 PM
...just doesn't throw strikes anymore...

That's it right there. Same goes for Marte, Vizciano, etc. They have got to get ahead in the count. For every ball that they throw early in the count, that means the next pitch has to be twice as good as if they had thrown a strike. After another ball, it has to be a perfect pitch. More often than not, it won't be.

I couldn't say why there is some problem throwing strikes, only what happens when it doesn't happen. If it's a lack of trust in their "stuff" that is forcing them to try and be too cute early in the count, then that's trouble brewing. If it's just a bad temporary bout with wildness, I can't be too worried.

Time will tell.

elrod
05-10-2005, 11:46 PM
Vizcaino is the problem right now. He is useless as a late-inning close-game reliever. He should be the middle relief man. Use Politte for tight situations from now on. At least he's performed well this year.

balke
05-11-2005, 12:00 AM
Shingo just doesn't throw strikes anymore. It's easy to hit an 87 mph fastball when you know that's the only thing coming over the plate. I was surprised to see that homer after the way he came back on hitter one to strike him out. His fastball looked really good. But I guess you just gotta tip your cap to Jorge Cantu sometimes...he's gonna beat ya.

Cantu is one of the better kept secrets in the majors. He's got a great bat, and should've been the Rays' everyday 2nd baseman this season. Now, he looks to finally be a full time player at 3rd. Last year, he hit 20 doubles in 50 games. He's got good all around play, and its no surprise to me he's hit us this series.

Shingo sucks. I don't think Vizcaino sucks, I just think he sucked tonight, and I don't think he's good at cleaning up other people's messes. He's not good to leave in for a full inning either, he's a 1-2 out specialist.

There are teams with worse bullpens than our own. This thread is one big whiny bellyache. I'd love to see a professional upgrade as much as anyone, but our bullpen is nothing to laugh at. We could be the guys on the Northside for example.

elrod
05-11-2005, 12:12 AM
We could be the guys on the Northside for example.

We could be. But we're not. We are a Major League team and our bullpen should be a source of strength. Vizcaino is not part of the strength in the bullpen right now.

balke
05-11-2005, 12:32 AM
Well, assuming these stats are upgraded we are 8th in the league in bullpen ERA. 1st in Saves and Holds. Tied for 4th in fewest HR, and are 12th in K's. They've obviously put in the fewest innings of anyone. They have a record of 5-5. They have converted 15 of 19 save opportunities.

That's far from the biggest problem on this team. Vizcaino has a lifetime 4.68 ErA, and if you cancel out the bombing he took for Shingo early this season, his ERA shouldn't be close to the 7.31 it is now. He wasn't brought here to be the closer, just a set up man, and situational arm out of the pen.

I'm not going to whine about this Bullpen. I will ask for an attempt to get Wagner if we are serious about contending this season, but this bullpen we have right now is major league level. It is a top 10 bullpen at the least. People are just overreacting to a bad showing, all stemming from an early exit by Contreras. My main question, where was Dustin in the 9th?

My secondary question, where was the late inning offense? This skid will end. We are a great team, yet everytime there is a lacking spark of offense when needed, I miss Frank that much more.

Alanzo XXXVIII
05-11-2005, 02:51 AM
Well, assuming these stats are upgraded we are 8th in the league in bullpen ERA. 1st in Saves and Holds. Tied for 4th in fewest HR, and are 12th in K's. They've obviously put in the fewest innings of anyone. They have a record of 5-5. They have converted 15 of 19 save opportunities.

That's far from the biggest problem on this team. Vizcaino has a lifetime 4.68 ErA, and if you cancel out the bombing he took for Shingo early this season, his ERA shouldn't be close to the 7.31 it is now. He wasn't brought here to be the closer, just a set up man, and situational arm out of the pen.

I'm not going to whine about this Bullpen. I will ask for an attempt to get Wagner if we are serious about contending this season, but this bullpen we have right now is major league level. It is a top 10 bullpen at the least. People are just overreacting to a bad showing, all stemming from an early exit by Contreras. My main question, where was Dustin in the 9th?

My secondary question, where was the late inning offense? This skid will end. We are a great team, yet everytime there is a lacking spark of offense when needed, I miss Frank that much more.

Are you kidding me? Were you WATCHING game? Were you WATCHING the Bullpen walks?

Falstaff
05-11-2005, 03:46 AM
ya, got a couple kids on the local hs team that are starting to look like they might be able to make a contribution!! Sheesh if he keeps serving up lollipops trade to the cubs for peanuts.

mike squires
05-11-2005, 05:17 AM
Unfortunatly there will be times we have to see Cotss and Vizciano in games like that this year especially against teams you think you should be able to beat. Running Hermanson/Pollite out there every game will likely tire them out and cause damage for later in the season. I know that is not very profound but it is reality...

balke
05-11-2005, 07:14 AM
Are you kidding me? Were you WATCHING game? Were you WATCHING the Bullpen walks?

I WATCHED Contreras give up 4 runs in 5 innings. I also WATCHED the offense put up 3 straight donuts in the 7th 8th and 9th on bad relief pitching.

Vizcaino gave up 1 through 1.1 pitched. No matter how painful it was to watch, the bullpen just had an off night. This is as knee jerk as saying we should cut paulie because he's slumping. Someone in the game day thread was trying to say Marte sucks, and I can't even remember the last time he gave up a run.

Our bullpen is good. This was one game. Yes they could upgrade, Vizcaino being wild in this one game doesn't mean he sucks. Marte walking 2, but never surrendering a run doesn't mean HE Sucks.

chaerulez
05-11-2005, 07:20 AM
Let's not let judge the bullpen after one bad night, keep in mind that both Garica and Contreras were charged with 4 runs, something that hasn't been really happening with our starters (how great is it to say that?). I think especially in the first Tampa game, our offense was to blame for the loss more than pitching.

rdwj
05-11-2005, 07:20 AM
Our bullpen is good. This was one game. Yes they could upgrade, Vizcaino being wild in this one game doesn't mean he sucks. Marte walking 2, but never surrendering a run doesn't mean HE Sucks.

Thank you for being a realist. Our bullpen is fine. Everyone seemed to have the walk bug today - not just the bullpen. When you walk 10+ batters, you're not going to win too many games.

harwar
05-11-2005, 07:32 AM
Shingo started out like this last year also.When he has his great control hes' almost unhittable,but right now hes' lost without it.When the weather heats up i think he'll be ok,but i wouldn't put him in there now with the game on the line.
Vizcaino is the kind of guy that needs a lot of work to be sharp.He just hasn't been used enough because we haven't needed him.
I'm much more worried about our anemic offense.When the middle of the order comes up with runners on i get depressed.

Frater Perdurabo
05-11-2005, 08:35 AM
The way to fix the bullpen is not to add bullpen pitchers from other teams.

If the Sox are serious about capitalizing on the fast start, they better deal with the bullpen the soon.

Trade for an established starter. Then, the weakest starter at that point (Contreras?) moves to the bullpen to become the long reliever. That way, when one of the starters gets knocked around in the early innings, Contreras can come in and pitch three or four innings. That gets the Sox to the seventh. At that point, Politte, Marte and Hermanson can lock down the last three innings. Vizcaino, Cotts and Shingo are the "garbage time" relievers.

Trading for a starter improves both the rotation and the bullpen because the best pitchers become starters. Pitchers with fewer good pitches become relievers to limit their exposure!

tstrike2000
05-11-2005, 09:10 AM
As the summer heats up, it's gonna be a question whether Vizcaino and Takatsu can be used for anything other than mop up or multiple run leads. I'm still a Shingo fan, but he's turned into another heart attack waiting to happen like Krotch with control problems and then the long ball. Shingo Takat-blew not just last night but lately. It was a curious decision to use Vizcaino and Shingo instead of at least trying Politte in place of one of them. Unless Hermanson has been overused, he and Marte are the only ones that can be relied on in 8th inning or save situations.

mjharrison72
05-11-2005, 09:28 AM
I wasn't going to join in on this Shingo bash-fest. To be honest, I continue to think Viscaino was the reason we lost yesterday. I also don't think either of these guys should be used primarily for mop-up work, or anything like that. But Shingo definitely has to get his control back, or he's pretty much worthless to us. The homers are a big problem... he gave up 6 in 62 IP last year, and he's given up 5 already this year, albeit three in one game. Is that a sign hitters are "figuring him out"? I don't really know... I tend to believe his track record in Japan shows that he had the hitters figured out better than the hitters had him figured out. But that was also Japan.

I guess to put this in perspective, Shingo and others in the 'pen have given us some scares this season, but it's just something that happens... sometimes your relievers get lit up and blow it for you. The way you measure a good staff is their ability to shake it off and come back tomorrow looking to win. I have faith that these guys can do that, with guidance from Coop and Ozzie.

Frater Perdurabo
05-11-2005, 10:44 AM
I wasn't going to join in on this Shingo bash-fest. To be honest, I continue to think Viscaino was the reason we lost yesterday. I also don't think either of these guys should be used primarily for mop-up work, or anything like that. But Shingo definitely has to get his control back, or he's pretty much worthless to us. The homers are a big problem... he gave up 6 in 62 IP last year, and he's given up 5 already this year, albeit three in one game. Is that a sign hitters are "figuring him out"? I don't really know... I tend to believe his track record in Japan shows that he had the hitters figured out better than the hitters had him figured out. But that was also Japan.

I guess to put this in perspective, Shingo and others in the 'pen have given us some scares this season, but it's just something that happens... sometimes your relievers get lit up and blow it for you. The way you measure a good staff is their ability to shake it off and come back tomorrow looking to win. I have faith that these guys can do that, with guidance from Coop and Ozzie.

When Frank returns, can Shingo go down to Charlotte to work out his problems?

mjharrison72
05-11-2005, 12:35 PM
When Frank returns, can Shingo go down to Charlotte to work out his problems?
I don't think that's the answer, and I certainly didn't try to suggest that... I just think maybe the 9th inning is not the most appropriate time for Shingo to be working out his problems.

hawkjt
05-11-2005, 12:46 PM
The downside to having a great rotation that goes deep into games is the bullpen is not used often enough to be really sharp. Then you get a couple of bad starts and the bullpen comes out walking guys. I like our bullpen including shingo. When they start getting more regular work which inevitably will happen thru the long hot summer they will be sharper. Too early to get real worried.

Frater Perdurabo
05-11-2005, 12:47 PM
I don't think that's the answer, and I certainly didn't try to suggest that... I just think maybe the 9th inning is not the most appropriate time for Shingo to be working out his problems.

I know you didn't suggest it, but I am suggesting it as something the Sox ought to consider.

DaleJRFan
05-11-2005, 12:48 PM
Tonight's game, but not tonight's game exclusively, should be an indicator that our bullpen is not the cream of the crop; in fact, it's anything but.

Late in the game, if you take a pitcher out who's gotton 1 out and left a man on first, you should not expect 2 runs to be scored. Vizcaino has hardly proved himself worthy of being a late inning "righty specialist" this year. But that's only a part of the whole problem.

Politte has far better numbers, and got a nice feeding of pine tonight. Vizcaino, on the other hand, gave up his inherited runner and allowed another run to score in 1.1 innings. He got his 3rd out in the 7th with bases loaded.

Cotts is shaky.
Vizcaino is completely unreliable.
The usage of Shingo needs to be rethought, now. We can no longer afford to use him in the latest of innings when he's proven to give up the long ball-- make them earn it.

Marte is better than the above, but has a serious problem with walks.

Politte seems to be doing well this season, as well as Hermanson.

My problem with the usage of Hermanson is that he is only used in very "precise" situations, only when the game is clearly on the line.

We can't keep on floating by in these close games. It's true that the best team will, for the most part, win close games. But I want to see the numbers (ERA, WHIP?) in our relievers before I beleive this generalization in regard to the White Sox.

The last 2 outing for Cotts have been lights out. These are extended outings where he faces more than one hitter, too. He is much better in that role. Politte is tha S***. Marte as well. Hermanson is the real deal, period. I am still not sold on Vizcaino and Shingo stinks. Having 4 of the 6 bullpen arms being as good as they are, I don't understand how we can think anything but good things about the situation. Sure, Cotts walked a few guys early on, but he has looked very, very good as of late. The bullpen gave up 3 runs over 4 innings yesterday. The day prior, they didn't give up any runs. I don't know how you can say the bullpen is bad based on one game.

At any rate, I am confident KW will add an arm at the deadline. Bring on Mike Gonzalez!

Ol' No. 2
05-11-2005, 12:50 PM
The bullpen is fine. They just had an off night. It happens. That said, I don't think they can just keep sending Shingo out there for the 9th inning and hoping for the best. I wouldn't give up on him, but he should be getting his act together in the 7th or 8th inning where one mistake isn't fatal.

balke
05-11-2005, 01:02 PM
The last 2 outing for Cotts have been lights out. These are extended outings where he faces more than one hitter, too. He is much better in that role. Politte is tha S***. Marte as well. Hermanson is the real deal, period. I am still not sold on Vizcaino and Shingo stinks. Having 4 of the 6 bullpen arms being as good as they are, I don't understand how we can think anything but good things about the situation. Sure, Cotts walked a few guys early on, but he has looked very, very good as of late. The bullpen gave up 3 runs over 4 innings yesterday. The day prior, they didn't give up any runs. I don't know how you can say the bullpen is bad based on one game.

At any rate, I am confident KW will add an arm at the deadline. Bring on Mike Gonzalez!


Cotts is as hit or miss as anyone. He throws 95 for goodness sakes. Vizcaino isn't near the talent of Marte, but I still like having the guy on my team. We use him for too long it seems like. He needs to get his 2 outs, and sit down.

Mike Gonzalez would be interesting. HE can be pretty wild at times with his velocity. He'd be a welcome addition, but I'd rather have Wagner if at all possible. Wagner to me sounds like deep playoffs. Gonzalez sounds like "project" or "future".