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View Full Version : Use your bullpen, Ozzie


SouthSideHitman
05-08-2005, 04:13 PM
Now I know that this may seem nitpicky, given the eight game winning streak and success of the starters, but I think that Ozzie needs to start bringing in relievers a little earlier in a lot of these games. He let El Duque go seven innings and 117 pitches and let Buehrle goe 7.1 today after he coulda easily taken him out after getting shaken up in the fifth or sixth. I mean, I love our starters but our bullpen is also really strong. Especially when we have fragile pitchers who have had heavy worklaods in the past I think that Ozzie should utilize people in the pen besides Hermanson, Marte and Shingo. Our problem in past years has always been fading down the stretch and if we wanna make the postseason and go deep into October then we need great starting pitching, why waste our starters by going two extra innnings in games in early May, especially when there are solid options to bring in?

White Sox Josh
05-08-2005, 04:15 PM
He should've used Shingo in the Ninth. he's your closer.

voodoochile
05-08-2005, 04:15 PM
Now I know that this may seem nitpicky, given the eight game winning streak and success of the starters, but I think that Ozzie needs to start bringing in relievers a little earlier in a lot of these games. He let El Duque go seven innings and 117 pitches and let Buehrle goe 7.1 today after he coulda easily taken him out after getting shaken up in the fifth or sixth. I mean, I love our starters but our bullpen is also really strong. Especially when we have fragile pitchers who have had heavy worklaods in the past I think that Ozzie should utilize people in the pen besides Hermanson, Marte and Shingo. Our problem in past years has always been fading down the stretch and if we wanna make the postseason and go deep into October then we need great starting pitching, why waste our starters by going two extra innnings in games in early May, especially when there are solid options to bring in?

I don't mind him leaving Buehrle in today. I thought he pulled him exactly right. I don't understand why he brought in Marte when he did, but hey, it worked out...

ode to veeck
05-08-2005, 04:18 PM
I wouda left Hermie in, but can't complain about a WHITESOX WINNER

2nd 8 in a row of the season! back to back sweeps! whoohoo!

chisoxfanatic
05-08-2005, 04:25 PM
I don't mind him leaving Buehrle in today. I thought he pulled him exactly right. I don't understand why he brought in Marte when he did, but hey, it worked out...

I don't understand why either, since Hermanson is a long-inning pitcher (he can face more than 3 batters). It's a good thing Marte got that last out...I thought it was a little duck snort that would've allowed the tying and winning runs in (thankfully it went right to Rowand).

swanson24
05-08-2005, 04:26 PM
Is anyone worried that the Sox arms could eventually get burned out like the Cubs staff has with injuries? It may be a stupid question but I am always nervous about the Sox.

chisox2005
05-08-2005, 04:39 PM
Is anyone worried that the Sox arms could eventually get burned out like the Cubs staff has with injuries? It may be a stupid question but I am always nervous about the Sox.


Injuries happen, you can't sit around waiting for them.

gosox41
05-08-2005, 04:41 PM
Now I know that this may seem nitpicky, given the eight game winning streak and success of the starters, but I think that Ozzie needs to start bringing in relievers a little earlier in a lot of these games. He let El Duque go seven innings and 117 pitches and let Buehrle goe 7.1 today after he coulda easily taken him out after getting shaken up in the fifth or sixth. I mean, I love our starters but our bullpen is also really strong. Especially when we have fragile pitchers who have had heavy worklaods in the past I think that Ozzie should utilize people in the pen besides Hermanson, Marte and Shingo. Our problem in past years has always been fading down the stretch and if we wanna make the postseason and go deep into October then we need great starting pitching, why waste our starters by going two extra innnings in games in early May, especially when there are solid options to bring in?

I agree. El Duque is old and coming off an arm injury. Having him throw 115+ pitches a start isn't a good idea IMHO.


Bob

SSN721
05-08-2005, 04:45 PM
Until it comes and really bited them, I dont think it is bad how he is managig the staff. You dont want to overwork the bullpen either when you dont have to. I like him letting the guys pitch long this year. I think El Duque might ned some longer starts like that considering he hasnt been a full time pitcher in awhile, to build up some enndurance.

TDog
05-08-2005, 04:47 PM
You could have an overworked bullpen or overworked starters. The starters are getting four or five days rest between starts, and they're all veterans. The bullpen will get plenty of work when the summer heat helps wear the starters down sooner.

WLL1855
05-08-2005, 05:08 PM
Now I know that this may seem nitpicky, given the eight game winning streak and success of the starters, but I think that Ozzie needs to start bringing in relievers a little earlier in a lot of these games. He let El Duque go seven innings and 117 pitches and let Buehrle goe 7.1 today after he coulda easily taken him out after getting shaken up in the fifth or sixth. I mean, I love our starters but our bullpen is also really strong. Especially when we have fragile pitchers who have had heavy worklaods in the past I think that Ozzie should utilize people in the pen besides Hermanson, Marte and Shingo. Our problem in past years has always been fading down the stretch and if we wanna make the postseason and go deep into October then we need great starting pitching, why waste our starters by going two extra innnings in games in early May, especially when there are solid options to bring in?

For crying out loud, Buehrle threw just over 105 pitches today which is far from overworking him. The trouble in the middle of the game was mostly the defense's making. If I recall, it was Manuel who favored the shutting down of a starter after he reached an arbitary pitch count, not to mention pulling a quick hook instead of letting the starter work out of it. I don't think we want to go back to those days.

Ozzie is handling the starters just fine. We're 24-7 mainly because our starting pitching has been a pack of studs. Don't mess with something that isn't broken.

kevingrt
05-08-2005, 05:13 PM
I'm very on the fence for this issue. I feel that the pitchers are going a lot of innings even when we could put in Cotts, Politte, etc. But then I look at the starters pitch counts and they don't go much over 110 pitches. Plus, El Duque says he has no problem pitching 140 pitches an outing. I have no clue how much to believe this, especially since he ahs been known as a little injury prone. But keeping the starters out is working.

I got to go with the old saying, if it ain't broke DON'T fix it

Banix12
05-08-2005, 05:20 PM
I for one have a very positive opinion on the way Ozzie has been using the pitching. He's letting the starters go and he really isn't letting them get past 120 pitches too often, which is perfectly reasonable. Unfortunately for the bullpen, that 100-120 pitches has been getting the starters into the 8th or 9th since the pitchers, with the exception of El Duque and Conreras, have been very efficient. He's been getting the bullpen work whenever he can, but I don't think Ozzie should bring out a starter who is in the zone just so he can get the bullpen work. The bullpen is gonna just have to deal with the situation at hand and stay sharp by getting work in between appearances on the side.

MisterB
05-08-2005, 05:25 PM
The Sox bullpen still has the fewest innings pitched in the AL. It is NOT getting burnt out. Relax, guys.

Daver
05-08-2005, 05:36 PM
Pitch count is a horrible way to judge a pitcher.

PAPChiSox729
05-08-2005, 05:49 PM
Ozzie hasn't done that bad of a job with handling the starters. Maybe he should be a little more cautious with El Duque, but besides that, he hasn't done much wrong. But his handling of the closer is what worries me. I'm not a big fan of the closer by committee.

Banix12
05-08-2005, 06:02 PM
Ozzie hasn't done that bad of a job with handling the starters. Maybe he should be a little more cautious with El Duque, but besides that, he hasn't done much wrong. But his handling of the closer is what worries me. I'm not a big fan of the closer by committee.

There are two kinds of closer by committee.

Version 1) You don't have a closer so you are just going to choose a guy each night based upon the matchups at hand and hope the odds stay in your favor. like what boston tried a couple of years ago.

Version 2) You have multiple players who have closed in the past and shown themselves to be effective. You play the matchups for each player to work to the strengths of each pitcher, but you still have multiple guys who can close. The poster child for this is the Nasty Boys with the Reds in the early 90's.

I'm not saying the sox guys are as good as the nasty boys or any of the other great bullpen combos but I think the sox bullpen leans more toward version 2 than version 1.

mmmmmbeeer
05-08-2005, 06:06 PM
I'd rather see how durable our starters are now than take it easy on them only to see them break down after the trading deadline. With that said, the only game I thought that Oz really pushed a pitcher was Fri when El Duque threw 117 pitches. Our starters have a combined ERA of 2.98, it's not like leaving them in has hurt us.

Chisox003
05-08-2005, 06:08 PM
He should've used Shingo in the Ninth. he's your closer.

Wrong.

We dont have a "closer"

We have 3 guys who go out and shut the door: Shingo, Hermy, and Marte...

Bringing shingo in in that situation would have resulted in bad news....Personally, I would have left Hermanson in, but HOW can you even doubt Ozzie when the team is playing this well?

Give me a break...Play to win now, not later

S05X

Edit: The only starter Id be worried about is El Duque, for obvious reasons...Granted its only May, but he looks fine....

The Pen should be rested with the other 4, leaving them ready for Duques starts, need be....Go Sox!

mmmmmbeeer
05-08-2005, 06:10 PM
Incidentally, referring to sCrUB pitchers, Zambrano threw 136 pitches today. You still think Ozzie is overworking our starters?

Banix12
05-08-2005, 06:23 PM
Incidentally, referring to sCrUB pitchers, Zambrano threw 136 pitches today. You still think Ozzie is overworking our starters?

I don't blame Baker for that one. Zambrano was pitching well, the cubs were coming in on a 7 game losing streak, and the closer backing him up, Dempster, had never closed out a game before. Leave him in, he can't do any worse than the bullpen.

Yeah, Ozzie is not overworking the starters, I really have yet to see many of the starters labor out there, with the exception of El Duque and occasionally contreras. We have to find out if El Duque's arm can take the abuse, so far it seems to be holding up fine.

MIgrenade
05-08-2005, 06:25 PM
The starters are deffinitely not being overworked. I liked bringing in Hermanson today but not Marte. I'd rather take the chance with the best bullpen guy. Marte was brought in for Zaun specifically and he walked him on 4 pitches. I'd prefer that Ozzie pick a closer that isn't Shingo.
For anyone worried about injuries all I can say is that's why you have a fast start like this and have BMac in the minors. I think they will be okay.

Banix12
05-08-2005, 06:30 PM
For anyone worried about injuries all I can say is that's why you have a fast start like this and have BMac in the minors. I think they will be okay.

I was thinking the other day, anybody think part of the reason the pitchers are going so well is they know that if they struggle B-Mac is just sitting down there at AAA just waiting to take one of their spots? Competition does make for a better team, having that extra element of pressure could be one of the many motivating factors.

PAPChiSox729
05-08-2005, 06:36 PM
There are two kinds of closer by committee.

Version 1) You don't have a closer so you are just going to choose a guy each night based upon the matchups at hand and hope the odds stay in your favor. like what boston tried a couple of years ago.

Version 2) You have multiple players who have closed in the past and shown themselves to be effective. You play the matchups for each player to work to the strengths of each pitcher, but you still have multiple guys who can close. The poster child for this is the Nasty Boys with the Reds in the early 90's.

I'm not saying the sox guys are as good as the nasty boys or any of the other great bullpen combos but I think the sox bullpen leans more toward version 2 than version 1.

I just don't like the idea of changing pitchers in the middle of the ninth just to play the matchups. Marte scares me in the 9th and Shingo is just starting to regain my confidence. I say that you just find a guy and run him out there as your closer until he falters.

A. Cavatica
05-08-2005, 07:11 PM
This thread sucks, but not enough to justify the tag.

24-7.

daveeym
05-08-2005, 07:38 PM
I love this bullpen/closer crap, we can win 100+ and there still will be daily threads about how ozzie needs to pick a closer for the playoffs, and how our bullpen will be underused and it'll hurt us in the playoffs. All a bunch of hogwash.

Unregistered
05-08-2005, 07:43 PM
Ozzie explained why he stuck with Marte and didn't bring Shingo in at all in the 9th:

"Their best two hitters are on the bench. If I bring in [Shingo] Takatsu, they're going to bring in [Frank] Catalanotto and [Eric] Hinske. Those two guys can hit the ball out of the ballpark. That was in the back of my mind. We'll take the chance with Marte."

CallMeNuts
05-08-2005, 08:06 PM
We are not overworking the starters. We've had 4 off days in the first 5 weeks of the season. We have a true 5-man rotation this year, with no need to skip a weak starter. The last couple of years, we went with a 4-man whenever we had a chance to skip the virtual forfeit slot in the rotation. And having BMac waiting in the wings gives us plenty of insurance. He might even be an upgrade over el Duque.

The pen has gotten extra rest which could help down the stretch. Yet they still seam sharp whenever they get the call.

Bottom line: The pitching staff will be a lot more rested throughout the whole season when if they continue to allow only 3 or 4 runs per game. It's a lot more work to allow 7 runs per game.

bayzbol44
05-08-2005, 08:21 PM
Ozzie is doing a good job with the starters. It is better than overworking his bullpen. I think he feels confident that he has Bmac and Adkins in the minors to step up if one of the starters go down. Where if one of his main bullpen guys go down, he doesn't have anyone he can count on to bring up for the bullpen. Another Sox win!!! Magic number is 70 now.

CallMeNuts
05-08-2005, 08:31 PM
Magic number is 70 now.

Magic number formula:
163 - Sox wins - 2nd place team losses
163 - 24 - 11 = 128

But it's really too soon to calculate this.

FarWestChicago
05-08-2005, 08:38 PM
Ozzie is doing a good job with the starters. It is better than overworking his bullpen. I think he feels confident that he has Bmac and Adkins in the minors to step up if one of the starters go down. Where if one of his main bullpen guys go down, he doesn't have anyone he can count on to bring up for the bullpen. Another Sox win!!! Magic number is 70 now.Not teal!!

:tealpolice:

:tealtutor:

bayzbol44
05-08-2005, 08:45 PM
O I C now. Thanks. :whiner:

Ol' No. 2
05-08-2005, 09:04 PM
I agree, Ozzie's done a horrible job managing the pitching staff. With a decent manager, they might have the best record in baseball right now.:?:

AJPosguchi
05-08-2005, 10:07 PM
I completely disagree with this idea that Ozzie is mismanaging the pitching staff. With the one exception of the game against Cleveland early on, Ozzie has done a terrific job managing the pitching staff (actually, I believe he is listening to Coop).

Putting in Shingo today would have brought Toronto's two best hitters off the bench, and likely produced an L instead of a W - not because of Shingo. Leaving Hermie in to go 2-2/3 innings may have made him unavailable for the few games.

Unlike the idiot manager on the North side who consistently has his starters go 130+ pitches and on 4 days rest (mainly because he has no bullpen) and, as a result, has Wood and Borowski sidelined (Zambrano is probably not far behind) - Ozzie has managed the Sox staff to continue their success throughout this year, and beyond.

Our starters know when they will pitch, how long they will be pitching, and know that their manager has confidence in them. No one has thrown more than 120 pitches in any outing, and everyone has gone at least 6 innings.
Ozzie is doing a terrific job!

CubsSuckSoBad
05-08-2005, 11:47 PM
I bet you some of these posts were the same people complaining when the sox starters were pulled in previous years and the bullpen blew the game....

You've gotta be kidding me....Starters are supposed to pitch until they dont have it anymore...Ozzie and Coop can tell when their starters dont have it...They then decide who to bring in depending on the situation...

Ozzie is a situational manager....He's not going to bring shingo in just because he has the title of "closer"...Purely on matchups...he brings in the guy that he feels can get that batter out...thats why you saw marte come in for the left hander today and the fact that Zaun got hurt and delayed the game is the only reason that it got close to slipping away from us....

Just like yesterday when Garland was sitting forever when we were pounding the jays pitching...he would come in in his half of the inning and be rusty...he couldnt get in a groove...marte had the game in hand until zaun got hurt and the game was delayed for a about 7 years....

WE have a good bullpen, but that doesnt mean that we need to use it everyday...the starters are not being overworked...they throw pitches until they dont have it anymore for the day...

Let Ozzie do his job....he's doing fine...:supernana:

jabrch
05-09-2005, 12:38 AM
When Ozzie pulls a starter too early, people here bitch. When he leaves them in 105 pitches, people bitch. If he leaves them in long, and they get hit, people bitch.

I think Ozzie has handled this staff and pen very well. The results are good so far. SPs don't look like they are tiring. RPs don't look like they are lacking work when they do get in.

I don't see the problem.

Is this a classic case of WSIers looking desperately for something to complain about when right now, there really should be nothing to complain about?

schmitty9800
05-09-2005, 12:45 AM
Is this a classic case of WSIers looking desperately for something to complain about when right now, there really should be nothing to complain about?I think it's a case of everyone being constantly being fed news of the Cubs's starter problems, which probably stemmed them being overworked. I don't think that's even close to happening with the Sox's starters though. The only one I'm worried about a little is Hernandez, he's shown a history of being injury prone if he has to work too much in a season.

jabrch
05-09-2005, 01:02 AM
I think it's a case of everyone being constantly being fed news of the Cubs's starter problems, which probably stemmed them being overworked.

The Who?

balke
05-09-2005, 01:08 AM
I hated Ozzie til this season, but this season he's done a 180 with the pitching staff. I like the situational closing, and not relying on one stud to get us out of the game every time. Ozzie knows what matchups he likes, and is pacing the staff quite well.

As for 105 pitches for Buehle being too many... GMAB!
El Duque is fine, he's a veteran. He barely gives us 6 IP right now as it is. He's here to pitch, use him. 115 is not that many pitches anyways. 120+ is when things get a little weird.

Dustin is our long relief guy, but that doesn't mean we need to burn him out today. They saw a match-up they liked for the last couple batters, and Marte has been dominant. I saw nothing wrong with the move, and it ended up we got the win and Marte got a save.

If we didn't get the type of innings out of the starters that we have been, the bullpen would have a lot more ER. That type of rest has really let the bullpen guys show their stuff.

Optipessimism
05-09-2005, 03:15 AM
The bullpen will get their work in for sure. With five solid starters, you can give the guys that extra day off when theres an offday, so they should be fine. We have a nice schedule in June and July, so I think as the weather warms and the offense heats up Ozzie will be able to let the bullpen work a bit more and give the starters a bit of a break here and there. Playing teams within the division that aren't Minnesota helps a lot.

IowaSox1971
05-09-2005, 03:58 AM
Face it: El Duque probably is going to spend some time on the DL this season, whether he throws a few extra pitches per start or not. He is injury-prone, but pulling him after 80 or 90 pitches is not really going to prevent any injuries, it's only going to put extra strain on the bullpen. The starting rotation is hot right now, so Ozzie is just riding that wave while saving the bullpen for later in the season.

ma-gaga
05-09-2005, 11:36 AM
It is a "closer by committee", and I love it. The opposing team has no idea if the frisbee is coming, if the nasty left handed slider, or whatever Hermanson has that makes him so good.

It's a stat head's dream bullpen. :cool: