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View Full Version : Even Sox fans obsessed? EVERYONE's (Flubbie) OPINION PLEASE.....


CubsSuckSoBad
05-05-2005, 09:44 PM
My friend and I were having this debate on the reason that the Chicago Cubs have more fans than the Chicago White Sox. We came up with a number of reasons, but I wanted to see what everyone thought about the topic. We dug pretty deep and I would like to see if what we came up with match the majority consensus on the site.

He has been a city of Chicago fan his entire life...up until recently when I grilled him for rooting for the white sox and the cubs....He said that he wanted to root for Chicago in general....He did up until this year when he flipped out after listening to sports radio and the lack of White Sox coverage with the year that we are having.

I'm new to the site and would like some opinions on this matter if people would like to speak on it.

:gulp:

ilsox7
05-05-2005, 09:47 PM
We won 2-1 today. Jose looked awesome and Shingo, while scary, got the job done. The offense obviously struggled but I think they will come around.

What's that? This is yet another attendance thread? *****.

SoxWillWin
05-05-2005, 09:49 PM
Sorry, but I'm afraid this is

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=2628

Since attendance IMO has no correlation to which team is better.....that's what statistics are for.

FoulTerritory
05-05-2005, 09:53 PM
We won 2-1 today. Jose looked awesome and Shingo, while scary, got the job done. The offense obviously struggled but I think they will come around.

What's that? This is yet another attendance thread? *****.

I think we could cut him some slack because he's new to this site and maybe doesn't know he is "beating a dead horse"

To answer the question, I think most here would say the the reason there are more cub fans than sox fans is a combination of the following: media bias + sox poor marketing + herd mentality of Chicago baseball fans.

C-Dawg
05-05-2005, 09:53 PM
Cub fans always mention the attendance issue concerning the White Sox. As though their allegience to the Cubs is somehow strengthened by our attendance or lack thereof.

C-Dawg
05-05-2005, 09:56 PM
To answer the question, I think most here would say the the reason there are more cub fans than sox fans is a combination of the following: media bias + sox poor marketing + herd mentality of Chicago baseball fans.

You forgot to mention all the glamorous celebrities they have every night singing during the 7th inning stretch.

mr_genius
05-05-2005, 09:57 PM
the cubs are more popular cause they're just so loveable

OKCidiot
05-05-2005, 09:58 PM
Basically everything ties to the 1984 season. Don't forget that Harry Caray came over to the Cubs in 1982, and at that time true Cub fans either didn't want him or were indifferent towards him (they primarily thought of him as "that drunk buffoon who announces Sox games"), and lest we forget Lee Elia's rant directed towards the few who showed up for games at Wrigley that year. If memory serves me correct, the Cubs barely broke a million in 1983, but then along came 1984... the Cubs started playing good baseball, "die-hard Cub fans" sprang up from out of nowhere and Harry was suddenly revered as a God. Add the newfound power of Super Station WGN and presto... you have the "Chicago is a Cub town" mindset.

TornLabrum
05-05-2005, 10:02 PM
Basically everything ties to the 1984 season. Don't forget that Harry Caray came over to the Cubs in 1982, and at that time Cub fans either didn't want him or were indifferent towards him (they primarily thought of him as "that drunk buffoon who announces Sox games"), and lest we forget Lee Elia's rant directed towards the few who showed up for games at Wrigley that year. If memory serves me correct, the Cubs barely broke a million in 1983, but then along came 1984... the Cubs started playing good baseball, "die-hard Cub fans" sprang up from out of nowhere and Harry was suddenly revered as a God. Add the newfound power of Super Station WGN and presto... you have the "Chicago is a Cub town" mindset.

It goes back farther than that. It goes back to 1968 when the Sox moved from Channel 9 to Channel 32 when absolutely no one had antennas that could pick up UHF stations.

RKMeibalane
05-05-2005, 10:04 PM
Why are people paying attention to the Cubs?

OKCidiot
05-05-2005, 10:05 PM
It goes back farther than that. It goes back to 1968 when the Sox moved from Channel 9 to Channel 32 when absolutely no one had antennas that could pick up UHF stations.

This is true, not to mention the early 1970s, where you could barely pick up their signal for radio broadcasts (WEAW??? WTAQ???), let alone UHF television! However despite all that I really don't think the "Cub town" mindset was really that prevalent back then (at least nowhere near the degree that it is today).

Daver
05-05-2005, 10:09 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/daver/deadhorse.gif

FoulTerritory
05-05-2005, 10:09 PM
This is true, not to mention the early 1970s, where you could barely pick up their signal for radio broadcasts (WEAW??? WTAQ???), let alone UHF television! However despite all that I really don't think the "Cub town" mindset was really that prevalent back then (at least nowhere near the degree that it is today).

IMHO, I think the distinction is that the Sox ultimately recovered from the UHF disaster, and eventually got back on even footing with the Cubs in the early 80's, culminating with 1983. But the sox still have not recovered from the events of 1984.

Banix12
05-05-2005, 10:13 PM
The cubs being as popular as they are right now is actually a relatively new phenomenon. They've always had their legion of fans but I can remember years when the sox outdrew them. There are a whole slew of reasons for the current popularity.

1. Sammy Sosa. He was the biggest star going in the late 90's and is personally the reason why the cubs had to go to the bracelet system for distributing tickets. He became the marketing machine that baseball used to bring back fans and the cubs enjoyed the spoils

2. Neighborhood changes. The Lakeview neighborhood built itself up over the last 10-15 years into a place to be. Bridgeport had its problems, like lakeview had, but is now currently in a transitional phase, as the whole southside which is getting built up. The white sox used to get their audiences locally from the workers who worked in the factories and shops, now most fans live in the suburbs and are more white collar.

3. The strike. It killed the momentum that the sox were building in the early 90's. Then all the players came back out of shape and the rest is history.

4. The marketing of the sox in the late 90's. Just as the cubs were undergoing some of the greatest marketing of their product and immense popularity, the sox go into a youth movement and essentially concede the 98 and 99 seasons before they are played. The kids had trouble playing until 2000.

5. Beautiful Wrigley Field. The genius marketing plan of Phil Wrigley, to have Wrigley always preceded by the word "Beautiful". It's been going on for over 50 years and now even people not associated with the cubs use the phrase. You say it enough times and people beleive it. It's tough to compete with.

6. Jerry Reinsdorf shooting himself in the foot and then inserting said foot in mouth on every occasion he could. Ripping Bill Veeck, threatening to move, the exit of Carlton Fisk, his role in the strike, signing malcontents like Albert Belle, Jaime Navarro, and David Wells.


I think the sox right now are doing the right thing. They are trying to bring in families to watch games and make it a family friendly park. With Wrigley becoming a singles bar there is a void for baseball with a family friendly atmosphere. Those kids grow up Sox fans and over time the attendance grows.

Winning helps too.

C-Dawg
05-05-2005, 10:21 PM
4. The marketing of the sox in the late 90's. Just as the cubs were undergoing some of the greatest marketing of their product and immense popularity, the sox go into a youth movement and essentially concede the 98 and 99 seasons before they are played. The kids had trouble playing until 2000.



Ah, yes, the infamous white flag trade - which occurred while the Sox were, what, only 3 games out of first and Robin Ventura due to return within a few days from a broken leg suffered way back during spring training. I don't think it was the trade itself that made everyone so mad, as it was the timing of the trade.

PaleHoseGeorge
05-05-2005, 10:40 PM
Why are people paying attention to the Cubs?

Beats me.

Banix12
05-05-2005, 10:44 PM
Ah, yes, the infamous white flag trade - which occurred while the Sox were, what, only 3 games out of first and Robin Ventura due to return within a few days from a broken leg suffered way back during spring training. I don't think it was the trade itself that made everyone so mad, as it was the timing of the trade.

It's not so much the white flag trade that killed the sox. The 98 season where it was obvious that the sox weren't even trying hurt them even more. If they had come back from the white flag trade season and in the offseason built a contender, there wouldn't have been a big problem. There would have been a hit in attendance from the trade but it wouldn't have been as bad.

In 98 you had a team on the northside with a player hitting 66 HR's, a 20 K game rookie, and a wildcard contender. The sox weren't even trying. If you were new to chicago and wanted to root for someone, who would you root for, the team with all the stuff or the team whose biggest bright spot was a good year out of Slappy Caruso.

Lip Man 1
05-06-2005, 12:05 AM
C-Dog:

Ventura was back for three games before ownership pulled the plug with the trade of Baines to Baltimore the day before the White Flag and then that infamous deal itself.

Attendence dropped like a rock the following season. They have been slowly working their way back since.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=1528

Lip

kittle42
05-06-2005, 12:12 AM
Beats me.

Go Cubs go. Go Cubs go. Hey Chicago whaddya say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

SomebodyToldMe
05-06-2005, 12:15 AM
Why do the cubs have more fans? The cubs don't have fans...Wrigley has fans.

C-Dawg
05-06-2005, 07:37 AM
C-Dog:

Ventura was back for three games before ownership pulled the plug with the trade of Baines to Baltimore the day before the White Flag and then that infamous deal itself.



Ah, I couldn't remember the precise timing of Ventura's return; thanks for clearing that up.

The other big news that summer regarding Chicago sports was the Bulls winning their 5th championship, and as soon as the playoffs were over, the two Jerrys began making noise about "rebuilding". I guess it was their big theme that summer. If my memory serves me correct, Jordan, Pippen, Phil Jackson, etc, would all being brought back "for one year only" and then after that the building must start for sure! So after the 6th and final championship all the big names were gone.

I only mention this is because of its close timing with the white flag trade in 1997. Or maybe I am reading too much significance into it?

tebman
05-06-2005, 08:48 AM
The cubs being as popular as they are right now is actually a relatively new phenomenon. They've always had their legion of fans but I can remember years when the sox outdrew them. There are a whole slew of reasons for the current popularity.

1. Sammy Sosa. He was the biggest star going in the late 90's and is personally the reason why the cubs had to go to the bracelet system for distributing tickets. He became the marketing machine that baseball used to bring back fans and the cubs enjoyed the spoils

2. Neighborhood changes. The Lakeview neighborhood built itself up over the last 10-15 years into a place to be. Bridgeport had its problems, like lakeview had, but is now currently in a transitional phase, as the whole southside which is getting built up. The white sox used to get their audiences locally from the workers who worked in the factories and shops, now most fans live in the suburbs and are more white collar.

3. The strike. It killed the momentum that the sox were building in the early 90's. Then all the players came back out of shape and the rest is history.

4. The marketing of the sox in the late 90's. Just as the cubs were undergoing some of the greatest marketing of their product and immense popularity, the sox go into a youth movement and essentially concede the 98 and 99 seasons before they are played. The kids had trouble playing until 2000.

5. Beautiful Wrigley Field. The genius marketing plan of Phil Wrigley, to have Wrigley always preceded by the word "Beautiful". It's been going on for over 50 years and now even people not associated with the cubs use the phrase. You say it enough times and people beleive it. It's tough to compete with.

6. Jerry Reinsdorf shooting himself in the foot and then inserting said foot in mouth on every occasion he could. Ripping Bill Veeck, threatening to move, the exit of Carlton Fisk, his role in the strike, signing malcontents like Albert Belle, Jaime Navarro, and David Wells.


I think the sox right now are doing the right thing. They are trying to bring in families to watch games and make it a family friendly park. With Wrigley becoming a singles bar there is a void for baseball with a family friendly atmosphere. Those kids grow up Sox fans and over time the attendance grows.

Winning helps too.
Excellent summary! This just about wraps up why we're where we are now.

A lot of people forget (or didn't know) that for decades attendance was so bad at Cub games that the upper deck was closed on weekdays. Current trixies and fratboys listening to a recording of then-manager Lee Elia's purple-prosed rant (http://www.angelfire.com/il2/cubssuck/elia.htm)in 1983 about the 3,000 unemployed bums who come to games would be shocked to know he was talking about the lovable Cubs.

This teachers-pet treatment the Cubs get is part of a demographic cycle that will inevitably swing back to the Sox in not too many years. In the meantime, it's fun for us to fuss about. :tongue:

misty60481
05-06-2005, 09:53 AM
Dont forget how Kenny Williams gutted this team during the offseason--he got rid of Maggs,,Carlos Lee,, Jose,,, and we still dont know for sure when Frank will be back... Then they raise ticket prices and parking,, not a good move,,, these were the players that brought the fans to the park...
The fact that a lot of the games are very dull and boring doesnt help,,., some people go to the game for entertainment,,they are Sox fans but when they put out money they want some excitement-- not 2 + hrs. of watching a picture and catcher playing catch and the only runs scored are walked in,, we need to start hitting ... and the long ball....

fusillirob1983
05-06-2005, 10:19 AM
Dont forget how Kenny Williams gutted this team during the offseason--he got rid of Maggs,,Carlos Lee,, Jose,,, and we still dont know for sure when Frank will be back... Then they raise ticket prices and parking,, not a good move,,, these were the players that brought the fans to the park...
The fact that a lot of the games are very dull and boring doesnt help,,., some people go to the game for entertainment,,they are Sox fans but when they put out money they want some excitement-- not 2 + hrs. of watching a picture and catcher playing catch and the only runs scored are walked in,, we need to start hitting ... and the long ball....

I don't think it matters as long as they win.

WhteSox725
05-06-2005, 11:00 AM
Dont forget how Kenny Williams gutted this team during the offseason--he got rid of Maggs,,Carlos Lee,, Jose,

Funny I thought Maggs was a free agent who didn't want to sign a contract with the White Sox last season when he had a chance. I guess KW made him not re-sign. If Maggs really wanted to be here he would have signed deferred money or not. He left under his own power (well maybe under his agent's power) but KW definitely didn't get rid of him.

I, for one, am glad that we have Pods instead of Lee. While the homerun is a nice thing to see it sure is nice to have a guy out there who knows how to run the bases and can take an extra base with his speed.

I think much of the same can be said about Jose. While a good guy in the clubhouse I think he was hurting the team by playing every day.

Sure the power is gone but I'm feeling pretty good about this team. I can honestly say that I have more faith in this group to come back in a game than I did with the group last year. They may not comeback using a big homerun but they have already shown this season that they don't necessarily need the homerun to comeback and win a game.

jackbrohamer
05-06-2005, 11:49 AM
Why do the cubs have more fans? The cubs don't have fans...Wrigley has fans.

Bingo. Bill Veeck in "Veeck as in Wreck" wrote that as early as the 1930s, Wrigley instructed all team employees to refer to Cub Park as "Beautiful Wrigley Field" and that still happens today. Say something often enough and people will believe it

Whatever, I've found it pretty easy to ignore the Cubs this year, and what little I've heard has been plenty amusing.

Iwritecode
05-06-2005, 11:59 AM
Dont forget how Kenny Williams gutted this team during the offseason--he got rid of Maggs,,Carlos Lee,, Jose,,, and we still dont know for sure when Frank will be back... Then they raise ticket prices and parking,, not a good move,,, these were the players that brought the fans to the park...
The fact that a lot of the games are very dull and boring doesnt help,,., some people go to the game for entertainment,,they are Sox fans but when they put out money they want some excitement-- not 2 + hrs. of watching a picture and catcher playing catch and the only runs scored are walked in,, we need to start hitting ... and the long ball....

:tealpolice:

Fenway
05-06-2005, 02:41 PM
One huge problem that the White Sox have is they in the past two decades have lost downtown. You see the Cubs logo everywhere in the Loop and on Michigan Ave but seldom see the White Sox logo ( however more and more Sox hats are appearing )

A good example is Walgreen's. Try finding ANYTHING White Sox in the store. But they sell Cubs "we believe" bracelets" , hats, shirts etc. Now for a company that has it roots on the South Side ( their first store was at Cottage Grove and Bowen ) this is simply a shame. Maybe the White Sox should contact the #2 drugstore chain in the market CVS which BTW is now the largest in the US. CVS buys signage in many MLB parks

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/images/2005/04/08/giPJS5om.jpg

Blunders were made by Reinsdorf and Einhorn early on that cost the White Sox a generation of fans. Einhorn did indeed see the future with Sportsvision but it wasn't going to work if the other team in town had every game on free TV. The children who were 8-10 years old then saw the Cubs all the time and became Cub fans. There is your growth in fanbase.

Another blunder was not building the new ballpark in the South loop ( Printers Row) area when they had the chance. If USCF was there today, the team would be drawing 30,000 a game.

Once somebody goes to USCF they love the place. The problem is GETTING them there.

Winning will do it. 15 years ago the Yankees average attendance was roughly the same as Montreal because people were terrified of going to the South Bronx. Not anymore.

SOXSINCE'70
05-06-2005, 02:48 PM
It goes back farther than that. It goes back to 1968 when the Sox moved from Channel 9 to Channel 32 when absolutely no one had antennas that could pick up UHF stations.


I was always able to get channels 32 and 44 with no problem.
On my 8" Aiwa black and white TV,that is.:roflmao: :roflmao:

Fenway
05-10-2005, 07:24 PM
IMHO, I think the distinction is that the Sox ultimately recovered from the UHF disaster, and eventually got back on even footing with the Cubs in the early 80's, culminating with 1983. But the sox still have not recovered from the events of 1984.

I have cited these 2 colums in the Boston Globe from 1983-4 before but the writer Leigh Montville really tried to understand the White Sox/Comiskey and the fans

LEIGH MONTVILLE\ COMISKEY PARK, CHICAGO IS (http://infoweb.newsbank.com/iw-search/we/InfoWeb?p_action=doc&p_docid=0EB974C3F68F5A79&p_docnum=19&p_queryname=2&p_product=NewsBank&p_theme=aggregated4&p_nbid=N4DE48MCMTExNTc2NzAwMS4zNDc0NDQ6MToxMjpuY2R tZXRyb3dlc3Q)
Boston Globe - October 8, 1983

Worries developed about spectator safety in a declining neighborhood, and suburban fans stayed home. The paint peeled. The team was terrible. Poems were written about the other old lady of Chicago baseball, Wrigley Field, and its ivy, on the North Side. No poems were written about Comiskey Park.



"Tell me the other side of the story," you ask Holtzman, who also sat through all of this.



"It was all overrated," Holtzman says. "I grew up in this neighborhood 50 years ago and I'll tell you this, it's a better neighborhood now than it was 50 years ago. Heck, Mayor Daley only lived a 10-minute walk from here.

and Montville on Sportsvision

Boston Globe - March 21, 1984

LEIGH MONTVILLE\ THE VERY AIR HAS ITS PRICE (http://infoweb.newsbank.com/iw-search/we/InfoWeb?p_action=doc&p_docid=0EB9760FAEB593B9&p_docnum=7&p_queryname=3&p_product=NewsBank&p_theme=aggregated4&p_nbid=N4DE48MCMTExNTc2NzAwMS4zNDc0NDQ6MToxMjpuY2R tZXRyb3dlc3Q)

An only consolation is that one of the first big pay-cable promotions took place last year in Chicago. The White Sox hired Ken Harrelson - remember him? - and Don Drysdale and put most of their games on the pay service. The team had a tremendous season, finishing in the playoffs.



I went to Comiskey Park for those playoff games, expecting to find pandemonium from a crowd that hadn't had a winner in decades. The crowd reaction was reserved.



"Why's this?" I asked.



"Nobody knows this team," I was told. "If you don't buy the cable, you don't see the games. People can't develop a passion for a team of players they've never watched."

DumpJerry
05-10-2005, 07:42 PM
"Nobody knows this team," I was told. "If you don't buy the cable, you don't see the games. People can't develop a passion for a team of players they've never watched."
That pretty much sums it all up. :angry: