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View Full Version : What if the Yankees Continue to Stink???


Tekijawa
05-04-2005, 09:59 AM
What does George do? Let's say the Mighty Yankees are out 15 games at the all star break... At that time most teams would start sending their high priced players to other teams... But what happens in the Yankees case? Most of these guys are old, over priced and locked into very long term contracts, not to mention the only players that other teams may take they Yankees probably wouldn't want to get rid of in the first place and Obviously The usual high bidder, the Yankees themselves, will be out of the bidding.

OR

Do they add more payroll and try and make a late season push?

This could be very a very interesting season in that case if this keeps up!

Ol' No. 2
05-04-2005, 10:24 AM
IMO, we are witnessing the fall of the Yankee empire. They had their best years from 1996-2001. The core of those teams was mostly home-grown talent. After they lost to the D-backs in 2001, Steinbrenner adopted a strategy of plugging holes with money. In looking back, the more money he spent the worse the team got. It's not a viable long-term strategy.

It seems they've finally reached the limit of money available. They didn't pursue Carlos Beltran last winter despite an obvious need in CF. They have huge amounts of money tied up in unproductive players who they can't pay another team enough money to take off their hands. And they have arguably the most barren farm system in baseball.

In short, they're going to be very entertaining to watch for a while.

samram
05-04-2005, 10:24 AM
Well, that's a large if at this point, but they could offer to pay massive amounts of salary to get some highly rated prospects. However, my guess is they would hold on to most guys and go for it again next year.

Procol Harum
05-04-2005, 10:26 AM
I'd guess that George would eye the Wild Card possibilities as his cue for action. If they were only 7-8 games out of the running for that, I'd bet ol' George will resort to his usual behavior and start shelling out even more moolah for players to try at some sort of run for the postseason.

A little early yet for such ponderings, but it's kinda nice to be contemplating Yankee doom this side of Memorial Day.

batmanZoSo
05-04-2005, 10:26 AM
You notice how so many magical Sox years ultimately end up in a Yankee championship (2000, 1977, the 1950s)? This looks like a magical Sox year and the Yankees have sucked so far. Just sayin...

I'll get those World Series Tickets printed tomorrow.

P.M. me...

samram
05-04-2005, 10:32 AM
IMO, we are witnessing the fall of the Yankee empire. They had their best years from 1996-2001. The core of those teams was mostly home-grown talent. After they lost to the D-backs in 2001, Steinbrenner adopted a strategy of plugging holes with money. In looking back, the more money he spent the worse the team got. It's not a viable long-term strategy.

It seems they've finally reached the limit of money available. They didn't pursue Carlos Beltran last winter despite an obvious need in CF. They have huge amounts of money tied up in unproductive players who they can't pay another team enough money to take off their hands. And they have arguably the most barren farm system in baseball.

I think you're right about available funds. I posted during the off-season in some thread that I didn't think the Yankees were overly profitable, with payroll and the costs of running a business in NY being very high relative to the rest of the country. Therefore, the extra luxury tax they may have had to pay to acquire Beltran may have been a deal breaker from the Yankees' point of view. I have no inside knowledge, but it seemed like such a sure thing going into the offseason that he would be there that there had to be something stopping the Yankees from going after him with more zeal.

ondafarm
05-04-2005, 10:37 AM
I think you're right about available funds. I posted during the off-season in some thread that I didn't think the Yankees were overly profitable, with payroll and the costs of running a business in NY being very high relative to the rest of the country. Therefore, the extra luxury tax they may have had to pay to acquire Beltran may have been a deal breaker from the Yankees' point of view. I have no inside knowledge, but it seemed like such a sure thing going into the offseason that he would be there that there had to be something stopping the Yankees from going after him with more zeal.

I do know someone who is plugged into the Steinbrenner clan and he swears that the Yankees are profitable, year after year.

This particular team I do not see making a long term run at anything (other than 3rd place in the AL East.) As to plugging holes with money, they could do it. I think that next year they will seriously outbid everyone to get Soriano back at second, a big problem this year.

Baby Fisk
05-04-2005, 10:37 AM
For all of you still clinging to the image of a Yankee division win in 2005 (I'm lookin' you Jjav, you crazy horse), consider the fact that they are beyond the 5th starter fiasco endured by the Sox last year. It took them months to finally land RJ and now he's injured. Wright is injured, and Brown is a horse that's been broken down for almost a year. The Yankees have reached their limit and have nowhere to go but down. The wealthiest franchise in baseball is reduced to starting a kid from AA tonight.

And of course, Don Mattingly continues to jinx up the Yankee dugout. You can see the negative aura floating around him, like Pigpen from the Charlie Brown cartoons.

Ol' No. 2
05-04-2005, 10:47 AM
I do know someone who is plugged into the Steinbrenner clan and he swears that the Yankees are profitable, year after year.

This particular team I do not see making a long term run at anything (other than 3rd place in the AL East.) As to plugging holes with money, they could do it. I think that next year they will seriously outbid everyone to get Soriano back at second, a big problem this year.According to Forbes' estimates, the Yankees revenues were $264M in 2004. Their 2005 payroll is something aroung $210M, IIRC. Add in luxury taxes and revenue sharing and the total has to be approaching $300M, and that's not including any other expenses. Even with a generous increase in revenues over last year, and assuming Forbes is underestimating their revenues, the well has got to be running close to dry. The fact that they didn't even sniff at Beltran last winter despite an obvious need in CF tells me they've got to be at or pretty near their limit.

gosox41
05-04-2005, 10:58 AM
According to Forbes' estimates, the Yankees revenues were $264M in 2004. Their 2005 payroll is something aroung $210M, IIRC. Add in luxury taxes and revenue sharing and the total has to be approaching $300M, and that's not including any other expenses. Even with a generous increase in revenues over last year, and assuming Forbes is underestimating their revenues, the well has got to be running close to dry. The fact that they didn't even sniff at Beltran last winter despite an obvious need in CF tells me they've got to be at or pretty near their limit.

Every team has a limit and I'm sure the Boss is at his. It would be interesting to see if he shells out more money to make a run at the playoffs (Wild Card or division). But they don't have any talent in the minors to give up and no one is going to eat a Bernie Williams size contract. So in essense George will have to shell out money to pay a new player as well as money to send to the team because the Yankees farm system doesn't have as many prospects. And ofc ourse and additional salary will be taxed under the luxury tax at this stage in the game.


Bob

Paulwny
05-04-2005, 11:02 AM
King George's ace in the hole may be the YES Net, revenues seperate and not part of the yankmee bottom line. George pays himself to broadcast yankmee games. With the YES Net he can do some $$ juggling and still be able to spend on players.

Irishsox1
05-04-2005, 11:06 AM
The Yankess problem is Pitching, Pitching, Pitching. They have 1 serviceable starter right now, Mussina, and he's towards the end of his career. Their bullpen is a joke, with the exception of Riveria (who's also old) and the heart of the team Bernie Williams is at the end of his career and fading fast. The other problem is they have a major clubhouse personality conflict with Jeter and A-Rod. Both of their egos mixed in with steroid monster Giambi and it doesn't work well. Of course, having great starting pitching can fix a lot of problems, but I don't see anyone trading top flight starting pitching to the Yankees for anyone of those monster contracts that the Yankees signed.

Flight #24
05-04-2005, 11:06 AM
Every team has a limit and I'm sure the Boss is at his. It would be interesting to see if he shells out more money to make a run at the playoffs (Wild Card or division). But they don't have any talent in the minors to give up and no one is going to eat a Bernie Williams size contract. So in essense George will have to shell out money to pay a new player as well as money to send to the team because the Yankees farm system doesn't have as many prospects. And ofc ourse and additional salary will be taxed under the luxury tax at this stage in the game.


Bob

Which is why there may be an opportunity for a team willing to add some salary to take on a pretty good player and a bit of cash from the Spankees in exchange for a good prospect. If this team continues to play well and attendance follow as we all think it will, there will be a nice chunk of additional profits. And if history and the various articles on Reinsdorf is a guide, that'll be made available to KW for moves. Add in the Cubs likely continuing to muddle along at .500 or below, and there's an opportunity here for the Sox to make some real hay in this town.

Dream scenario: Sox continue with the best record in baseball, then trade Anderson+Harris+Liotta+Borchard+Dye to the Yanks for Sheffield+$5mil. Sheff+Thomas and the pitching take the Sox to a title!

Ol' No. 2
05-04-2005, 11:07 AM
King George's ace in the hole may be the YES Net, revenues seperate and not part of the yankmee bottom line. George pays himself to broadcast yankmee games. With the YES Net he can do some $$ juggling and still be able to spend on players.I think that revenue has to be included in the $264M. They sure aren't making that much from ticket sales.

Paulwny
05-04-2005, 11:11 AM
I think that revenue has to be included in the $264M. They sure aren't making that much from ticket sales.

I may be wrong but I thought I read somewhere that they were seperate from each other.

Flight #24
05-04-2005, 11:16 AM
I think that revenue has to be included in the $264M. They sure aren't making that much from ticket sales.

Revenue from the official rights fees paid to the Yanks by YES would be included, but I highly doubt that the profitability of those rights are incorporated. That would go towards the YES financials, and is a primary way in which Big Stein rakes in $$$ even if the team appears to break even.

Otherwise, Forbes would be assuming that YES merely breaks even on the Yanks rights, which doesn't pass the smell test.

TDog
05-04-2005, 11:54 AM
I do know someone who is plugged into the Steinbrenner clan and he swears that the Yankees are profitable, year after year. ...

And I met a former executive of Alice Cooper's record company in the 1970s who swore he was really Eddie Haskel. Really.

Ol' No. 2
05-04-2005, 11:56 AM
Revenue from the official rights fees paid to the Yanks by YES would be included, but I highly doubt that the profitability of those rights are incorporated. That would go towards the YES financials, and is a primary way in which Big Stein rakes in $$$ even if the team appears to break even.

Otherwise, Forbes would be assuming that YES merely breaks even on the Yanks rights, which doesn't pass the smell test.This is always a problem with these kinds of arrangements. Obviously, YES wouldn't be profitable without the Yankees. So how much of the revenues from YES do you attribute to the Yankees for accounting purposes? IIRC, Forbes used a "fair value" estimate of rights fees based on what other teams are paying non-owned broadcasting entities. I guess that's about the best you can do.

The Racehorse
05-04-2005, 12:31 PM
What does George do?

SeLL!

JoseCanseco6969
05-04-2005, 12:32 PM
Well, i for one just cant understand how that Yankee team isnt producing aside the fact that they are really old. They just might come around...but they also might be facing the end of an era.

Baby Fisk
05-04-2005, 12:47 PM
Well, i for one just cant understand how that Yankee team isnt producing aside the fact that they are really old. They just might come around...but they also might be facing the end of an era.
Someone mentioned in another Yankee-hate thread that the current Yankees have way less heart than the WS-winning teams of 96-00. Jeter and Posada are still there, but warriors like O'Neill, Clemens, Pettitte, Brosius are gone, replaced by ageing or broken down players who were hoping to get in on some of the new Yankee glory that is now fleeting. The pitching is letting them down big time. Gary Sheffield can only do so much to try and overcome an early-innings blowout now guaranteed every time Kevin Brown takes the mound.

samram
05-04-2005, 01:03 PM
These are a couple of articles that could explain some of the financial issues the Yanks are (might be, who knows how accurate any financial info on MLB teams is) having, and why they've undertaken some of the actions being discussed in the thread. The debt service piece in the Post article is espeicially interesting, IMO.

NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/169454p-147981c.html)

WaPo (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61959-2005Feb3.html)

In April 2004, Forbes Magazine calculated the Yankees' EBITDA for fiscal 2003 as minus-$26.3 million -- an operating loss that was the second-highest in the game that year, behind the Texas Rangers'.

Brian26
05-04-2005, 01:17 PM
I'm willing to bet the first wholesale change will be the firing of Joe Torre, no matter how completely and utterly wrong that would be.

MRKARNO
05-04-2005, 01:22 PM
George would fire Torre and Cashman and then attempt to buy pitching from other teams before giving up on this season. I wouldnt underestimate his manical nature.

samram
05-04-2005, 01:43 PM
George would fire Torre and Cashman and then attempt to buy pitching from other teams before giving up on this season. I wouldnt underestimate his manical nature.

He would, except that he can't, if the information about the team's compliance with debt service ratios is to be believed, which I do, given their less than zealous pursuit of Beltran.

sean
05-04-2005, 01:55 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Yanks also about to build a new stadium fully (or at least close) funded by George? That might add into them not spending as much on talent as well.

Paulwny
05-04-2005, 01:59 PM
These are a couple of articles that could explain some of the financial issues the Yanks are (might be, who knows how accurate any financial info on MLB teams is) having, and why they've undertaken some of the actions being discussed in the thread. The debt service piece in the Post article is espeicially interesting, IMO.

NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/169454p-147981c.html)

WaPo (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61959-2005Feb3.html)

From the Daily News article the yanks recieve ~ $60 mil for broadcast rights. I believe MSG was paying this same amt a few yrs ago. Geoege manipulating money?
If the yankmees are losing money, who is loaning George $800 mil for a new yankmee stadium?

Flight #24
05-04-2005, 03:25 PM
From the Daily News article the yanks recieve ~ $60 mil for broadcast rights. I believe MSG was paying this same amt a few yrs ago. Geoege manipulating money?
If the yankmees are losing money, who is loaning George $800 mil for a new yankmee stadium?

Maybe Independent George is getting a loan from Relationship George?

nccwsfan
05-05-2005, 07:56 AM
Maybe Independent George is getting a loan from Relationship George?

But this was supposed to be the Summer of George!!!
:rolleyes:

Flight #24
05-05-2005, 10:17 AM
But this was supposed to be the Summer of George!!!
:rolleyes:

If the 2 are fighting, then that's obviously the problem - a George divided against itself cannot stand!:redneck

elrod
05-05-2005, 10:39 AM
It's all about starting pitching. Losing Wright really hurt because now they have a barely above average Mussina, an inconsistent Pavano and an old Johnson...and nobody else. The middle relief is terrible. And the lineup stinks after Jeter, Sheffield and A-Rod. Bernie is done. Giambi is done. Tino is done. Matsui is in a terrible funk. Posada is not hitting well. Well, they do have Andy Phillips...

DumpJerry
05-05-2005, 12:55 PM
I think the Yankees are proving that I am right in a point I've made from time to time in other threads about signing big name FA's. The Sox and Diamondbacks this year are proving that signing solid, not spectacular, players is the way to win. The spectacular player will be paid for past performance which may not be matched again. One exception is pitching. If you have a young pitcher, like a Jon Garland, who becomes hot in his mid-20's, then he may worth the big $$ because it takes pitchers a few years in the Big Show to catch on.

When you sign the spectacular players, you are building a movie set, a bunch of buildings which are really false fronts with nothing behind them. When the big $$ guy goes down or hits a slump, there is nobody able to fill his spot. Look at us a couple weeks ago when the A's killed us with all those beanballs and hard slides. Even though we lost some guys all at once for a few games, we were not killed (all the losses were one run losses, not blowouts).

The Boss made his choice for how to produce a winner and now he has to sleep with it. He's done it before (1970's) and has paid for it before (early 90's teams) with the same cyclical results.

bestkosher
05-05-2005, 01:16 PM
Ifa ny of you have palyed EA sports latest baseball game . They of course rate Joe Torre as the best mamanger in baseball. Many other media personailiets would probably agree. but look at the yankees now, Joe Torre, seems to be fading furthere and further back into the distance.